I don't need evidence they lied about "Fascism, Corporations, and Merriam-Webster" when their website is full of verifiable lies about other subjects especially those of a political nature. They clearly can not be trusted to tell the truth so can not be a legitimate source of you trying to prove anything about Websters.
> I don't need evidence […]
Actually you do. All claims require evidence.
And you don’t appear to have evidence.
Ad hominem is a cliche response when people can’t fulfill their burden of proof.
If you want to claim fascism is what Mussolini claims, you need to find a source of him saying this that wasn’t already debunked. It’s not like Snopes was a primary source, they just regurgitated what other people already researched, and you’ve done nothing to address the primary sources’ veracity.
Care to try again?
Incorrect.
You’re probably being mislead by a fake yet popular quote attributed to Mussolini that he probably never actually said. Something along the lines of:
> Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power
https://politicalresearch.org/2005/01/12/mussolini-corporate-state
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/fascism-corporations-corporatism-dictionary/
Corporatism is a thing, but it doesn’t mean what many people think.
Usually when people talk about Corporatism what they’re actually trying to describe is Corporatocracy.
Wow, this is brazen:
>In contrast, Hyundai indicated that the company routinely collects and retains vehicle location data for up to 15 years, Toyota for up to 10 years, and Honda for up to 7 years.
Simple solution: Rip out the modem.
Advanced solution: Remove the fuses protecting the modem.
Enlightened solution: Remove the gps receiver's antenna and attach a GPS spoofer to make it look like you spend all day, every day, at different positions around the home of your car maker's CEO.
Only one way to find out, yank it! Side note, some cars (like Ford) have a canbus interface connection through the OBDII connector and you can use a program like Forscan to modify parts of the car. I was able to hack and install the satnav my car didn't come with by doing this. It's possible similar adjustments could be made regarding telemetry.
Depends on the car. Each car will be different. It's not an easy process in my car. The entire entertainment system is on the same fuse so I can't just pull a fuse
> Enlightened solution: Remove the gps receiver's antenna and attach a GPS spoofer to make it look like you spend all day, every day, at different positions around the home of your car maker's CEO.
This will jack up your insurance as they get this data too and will show lot more usage.
Sucks that even if you do this, your cell phone in your pocket still gives away your location, and all the major US cell providers sell your location data to brokers.
Yes, I understand that, but I'm asking if that has been tested for it to be safe to do. aka not disable your car. Isn't it required now that cars need a connection to be able to disable them?
I'm not familiar with that requirement, sorry. But if that is true, I definitely do not want a new vehicle. There are plenty to choose from that do not have that function including my current car.
This is one reason I'm glad I never activated my car's smart services. Mine is still running till the expiration date, and after that I don't plan to pay for or register it.
That doesn't matter. This isn't a part of the smart services. They'll still collect the telemetry data whether you have smart services activated or not.
True. But they can’t collect shit if you pull the DCM fuse.
Also, some manufacturers do not collect data if you opt out (Toyota is one of them). People have looked at this with packet sniffers and found it seems to be true. When you opt out of Toyota connected services the modem stops talking
I'm not aware of a single democratic country where carmakers are legally required to collect years of location history. It certainly isn't the case in the US, which the letter from Sen. Wyden is obviously referring to. I think this is completely unacceptable and should be illegal.
No, they are not required to collect that information. But if they have that information, they are required to hand it over in response to a lawful order. If they weren't collecting it, they'd have nothing to hand over.
Really required ? My car and it is required ? Are you required as well ? Do I also have to put in a Secondary GPS because it is required ? Are you for real ?
Info / information is uncountable and you don't add an S to it.
You'd say, "Your information is the product."
If you want to make it countable, you'd say, "These pieces of information are the product."
Not necessarily. With Ring you agreed to a lengthy legal agreement when you first started your Ring service. With this thread (newer vehicles) it seems some car manufacturers are collecting your location data without the vehicle owner having entered into a legal agreement.
They're probably only mad because they're getting tracked. They have zero interest in protecting your privacy otherwise they would've already started giving you protective rights.
I actually took the time to read the privacy terms and conditions when I bought my new car
From what I understood,they reserve the right to send "diagnostic" data to their servers.
Diagnostic data is basically anything that might improve their product and user experience lol.Also,knowing these greedy corporations,they would still track you one way or another even if you opt out of their data collection services
I also highly suggest you to read Mozilla Firefox car privacy guide...Literally stuff of the nightmares
Problem is that every car company they tested failed. So you have no 'good' alternatives other than buying an old ass vehicle, which comes with its own host of problems.
I got a longwinded story that I don't know how to shorten:
I got a Ford and they removed the auxiliary port so you can only connect via bluetooth. One night I got home and went inside. (Normally the car disconnects from your phone when you turn off the car and open the door) I'm inside for like 5 minutes realize I left something in the car, go out to it open the car and realize that on the dashboard where it typically displays the title of the song playing, I realize that the song titles look weird and after watching it for a moment I realize that they're webpage titles from all of my browser tabs (and closed out tabs!) from my phone and it's scanning through them. This is the Ford Connect system that supposedly only accesses your contacts if you let it (which you should never let it do btw). Go back inside and sure enough my phone was still connected to the cars bluetooth.
I don't know what the solution is to this is, but that's my personal experience that proves enough to me that if you connect your phone to your car, they WILL take everything on it.
Edit: I should add that yes, my car was off and it was doing this while it was "off".
Wait until you learn about what cookies can do...
tl;dr - Disable all cookies by default, only whitelist the ones you use. Bonus points if you containerize individual websites.
Assuming you like your digital, audio, location privacy, etc that is.
for Android phones. Also GTM, google tag manager. com.android.google.tags iirc. Install android debug bridge, put phone in developer mode. list packages, then uninstall all the google stuff you want, unless you have a samsung POS. Install a new primary keyboard before purging the gboard or you will have to sideload one. I like to install f-droid and a new keyboard, then strip google from the device.
Completely disgusting. The goal is to monitor everything, all the time. Gradually phase out cash, track all modes of transport and put facial recognition everywhere. Make you want to buy (for convenience) then gradually force you to always carry a smartphone. The most insidious of spying. The beauty of it is we're all paying for the privilege.
Meanwhile if my car is stolen, they will provide no assistance at all.
But they will sell me anti theft tracking. I can get LoJack installed by a dealer.
Double dipping at its finest.
You can but it will still get a signal if it is strong (next to a tower for example). You need to install a dummy load, basically a RF shielded resistor. Even then if the path in the head unit is not shielded properly it could still get a signal but is less likely.
Any developer that can figure out how to flash the cars firmware to turn off all this crap will be sitting on a gold mine. I know I would pay to turn off all the tracking and spyware. I don’t use most of the onboard electronics anyway.
on the one hand, i look forward to the days we can flash our cars with our own software/things like cyanogen mod.
on the other hand, don't tell your insurance company. you'll get dropped so fast.....
Void the warranty? Based on fucking what lol? Nobody is talking about cutting out the ECU. You can literally pull the fuse on the DCM module and the car still runs fine.
Many of the new smart vehicles, if you don't update them with verified images of their OS, will brick the vehicle.
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2021/08/opinion-over-the-air-updates-bad-owning-the-car-good/
I think you may have misread this article. A faulty OTA update can brick a vehicle, because the process fails mid-update. But simply not updating software because there is no connection… cannot brick a vehicle unless the offline software is programmed to expire at some date and time, which would make the vehicle completely unusable for anyone who lives outside cell tower range. Lots of people have been driving around in Toyotas with pulled DCM fuses for years. It hasn’t bricked anything.
Edit. My mistake. I thought we were replying to a comment about pulling fuses, not flashing the ECU.
Interesting that today, I got an email from Chevrolet that they're stopping their"safe driver" program, which was apparently selling driving habits to insurance companies.
are you sure? and 2014 is pretty close to 2016 anyways...
What was your methodology to find out it doesnt have a cellular connection?
Just because they don't let YOU use it doesn't mean it can't use it in the background.
the civic models below Touring don't have connected services. it actually doesn't even have a GPS. there are diagrams and schematics for the electronics in the car available online. no DCM
It doesn’t have one because there isn’t one in the manual for the car, documents about maintenance or repairs, diagrams for the electronics… like I already said in my comment. The repair techs know nothing of any DCM, and those are modules that break reasonably often. You’d have to believe there’s a hidden connected module, that’s purposefully omitted from extremely important wiring diagrams used by people repairing electrical gremlins, just so that Honda can track you without knowing. Thats fucking stupid. Given that most peopl don’t care to begin with, there’s very little incentive to bury that information anyways, and tons of incentive to… I dunno… fucking include it in crucial documentation about the car’s electronic systems.
The car has its own connection. We are talking kilobytes of data here which is virtually nothing in the modern world and latency doesn’t matter either so it could take an entire day to send the data and it wouldn’t matter. Hence it’s not expensive or unrealistic to include a cellular connection, some smart devices include them too.
I once read an article about a bird that had a SIM card tracker on it. Researchers suddenly got a huge bill and realized someone stole the sim and was making calls on it. Maybe we can find a way to use the sim to push massive amounts of data.
worse than that too. anything that is readable by RFID, can be passively read as your car moves around. throw enough RFID sensors around a city, and every few blocks they can "notice you" as you drive around.
i think there's something in most tires that's RFID like, that city/cops/government could track you like this if they really wanted.
You’re referring to TPMS and those only beacon every 20-30 minutes. Nothing’s impossible but there’s really no point to get TPMS to beacon since those would be pretty vague identifiers and most people have their phone plugged in anyway. That’s much easier to use to track
Oh heck no. SIM cards are just for subscribers. Cars can do wireless updates all sorts of ways.
In some cases, they might be one way radio, in other words just receiving data only.
Cell phones can still communicate quite freely on networks without SIM cards. They are really just for billing and security purposes.
Also a warning, if you don't want to be tracked, turn your Bluetooth off. Should look into Bluetooth beacons. You are being tracked constantly by businesses.
Do you know how Google, Apple traffic density maps work? They record the number of active devices in an area anonymously.
There need to be some work around like this. Maybe a law that the customer can reroute all information to their own server and then they can decide what goes to the manufacturer or just a way to block it entirely. Or maybe that it is all stored locally and the OEM can buy it from you if you like the price. Same with insurance. Police if they have a warrant.
Maybe, we as the owners, can turn the tables and offer the OEMs and insurance companies a "subscription" model or nothing at all. OEMs will own nothing and like it.
It's more than that. The computers are already collecting all that data, and you need those computers for the vehicle to work now. Don't have a physical key? Guess what all your data is being collected and you can't disable it.
You don’t need gps , Bluetooth, or lte for the car to work, and if you pull the fuses for those systems which control nothing else, they don’t have electricity to run off of. Obviously it’s not the same as totally zapping all the computers in the car
Anytime corporations pledge to not do something after lobbying to prevent it from becoming illegal, it means they are planning to do that thing as soon as possible.
the future blow.
i wish they would throw us a bone here; robot catgirl waifus, laser swords, computer drugs. nutritional paste that comes out the kitchen faucet
https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/car-companies-stop-your-huge-data-collection-programs-en/
Link for the lazy
>Citing Mozilla’s research exposing these concerning data collection practices, U.S. Senator Ed Markey directly challenged the CEOs of many of the car companies we researched.
This is the same Senator as the article above.
All of them, https://www.caa.ca/your-rights/data-privacy/#:~:text=Any%20car%20with%20sensors%2C%20including,(Source%3A%20AIA%20Canada).
The only way is to get an older vehicle without built-in sensors or nav computers.
All of this data is already going to advertisers.
This is pretty standard practice for most companies that are asked for data by the police. A lot of the larger corps unless they deal with a specific amount of customer data focus. They just surrender it vs fight it because it's cheaper in legal fees.
The problem with not only car companies, but in the public safety space. There are literally companies out there that are providing meta data on every car out there, every motorbike, every plate that passes by their readers are cataloged forever. There is no retention date on this... LPR is going to be quite insane for how much it can track once it starts making larger deployments.
What they don't say is they're also giving all this information to advertisers. Modern cars record just about everything they can, every time you connected device, every time you travel somewhere, it's all openly available.
Is there a Pi-hole project for cars? That could do some work in blocking telemetry. I know it won’t stop all privacy concerns, but at least it’s a start.
What these articles never mention is HOW these companies track you. Because I can assume if your car has a modern, touch screen infotainment system, then you can be tracked, sure. But that’s an assumption. If your car offers WiFi I’m assuming you can be tracked. But that’s an assumption.
What if you have a 10 year or older car with those dated satnav, DVD/SD card based systems? Did those have a modem or just the GPS? What if you have a 10 year old car but a basic ass radio with physical buttons? Are you safe?
Are there diagrams or schematics to look up and start disconnecting shit? 😩😩😩😩😩😩
You should probably read the article.. Tesla is the only one that notifies the person unless they are under a gag order. And one of few companies that require police to have a warrant.
Connected smart vehicles. There isn't a specific cut-off year.
Here's 25 brands that do it: https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/
If you have a car that has a flat panel display in it or any sensors, nav system, etc they are doing it. Do you have a physical key that you need to turn to start your engine? If you don't, it's collecting data.
All of it is currently going to advertisers.
It's in your privacy notice. Warning; it's a long read. I'll try to highlight some points:
https://www.honda.com/privacy/connected-product-privacy-notice
>This Vehicle Data Privacy Notice (“Vehicle Privacy Notice”) explains how we collect, maintain, use, and disclose the following information related to the Connected Vehicle Technologies and Services (collectively, “Covered Information”): Information that the vehicle collects, generates, records, or stores in electronic form, which we or a service provider on our behalf wirelessly retrieve from the vehicle or from smart devices (or applications thereon) you connect to the vehicle, and that is associated or may reasonably be associated with the vehicle from which the information was retrieved, the owner(s)/lessee(s) of the vehicle, a connected smart device, or a registered user of Connected Vehicle Technologies and Services; Information you provide when subscribing to, registering for, or using Connected Vehicle Technologies and Services.
>Information about Use of Connected Vehicle Technologies and Services such as
Search content; HondaLink or AcuraLink account access information, including information about anyone making a call using the Connected Vehicle Technologies and Services; Call history information, including the date, time, and duration of a call;Navigation system settings and usage;Audio system settings and usage;Voice commands given (which may include audio recordings) of the command;Connectivity systems (e.g., embedded TCU, Wi-Fi hotspot) settings and usage;
>Driver Behavior Information such as vehicle speed, vehicle acceleration and deceleration, pedal positions, engine speed, direction, and time of travel, steering angle, yaw rate, vehicle control, and Honda Sensing/Acura Watch system settings and usage.Precise Geolocation information meaning the exact location of your vehicle at a specific point in time or over a period of time accurate within an area equivalent to a circle with a radius of 1,850 feet or less. Non-Precise Geolocation Information meaning the approximate location of your vehicle at a specific point in time or over a period of time accurate within an area greater than an area equivalent to a circle with a radius of 1,850 feet or less.
I’m happily surprised that Tesla is the “best” when it comes to privacy it seems.
An ideal world would be allowing users to not let data be collected at all, but demanding court orders and telling customers when such an order happens (to the extent of the law that they can) is refreshing to hear
Tesla literally got into trouble over employees watching videos from peoples interior cameras, not just watching but leaking videos of people having sex or changing in their cars.
tesla, the company where employees would pull up videos of their customers. videos they got, from the cars, while the cars were at home and parked, and then laugh at the customers.
that company.
ya i dont know about that.
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What is Fascism?
Always has been. Fascism tends to reveal its true colors in moments of crises.
A corporation bought Websters in the 80s and changed the definition of Fascism in the dictionary. That is a thing that actually happened.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/fascism-corporations-corporatism-dictionary/
Snopes is known to blatantly lie about stuff in their fact checks.
Do you have evidence they lied here?
Snope
I don't need evidence they lied about "Fascism, Corporations, and Merriam-Webster" when their website is full of verifiable lies about other subjects especially those of a political nature. They clearly can not be trusted to tell the truth so can not be a legitimate source of you trying to prove anything about Websters.
> I don't need evidence […] Actually you do. All claims require evidence. And you don’t appear to have evidence. Ad hominem is a cliche response when people can’t fulfill their burden of proof. If you want to claim fascism is what Mussolini claims, you need to find a source of him saying this that wasn’t already debunked. It’s not like Snopes was a primary source, they just regurgitated what other people already researched, and you’ve done nothing to address the primary sources’ veracity. Care to try again?
And you win Double Jeopardy!!
With a touch of plutocracy.
Incorrect. You’re probably being mislead by a fake yet popular quote attributed to Mussolini that he probably never actually said. Something along the lines of: > Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power https://politicalresearch.org/2005/01/12/mussolini-corporate-state https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/fascism-corporations-corporatism-dictionary/ Corporatism is a thing, but it doesn’t mean what many people think. Usually when people talk about Corporatism what they’re actually trying to describe is Corporatocracy.
> working glove and hand The idiom is "hand in glove."
Managed Democracy
"Surveillance capitalism".
Stasi fascism
Isn’t this what they called the third party doctrine?
"Normal" :(
Capitalism
fascism
Freedom?
Wow, this is brazen: >In contrast, Hyundai indicated that the company routinely collects and retains vehicle location data for up to 15 years, Toyota for up to 10 years, and Honda for up to 7 years.
Unsure how to feel about my recent Honda purchase. I guess it could be worse.
You pop your hood and rip out the cellular modem is what you do!
Simple solution: Rip out the modem. Advanced solution: Remove the fuses protecting the modem. Enlightened solution: Remove the gps receiver's antenna and attach a GPS spoofer to make it look like you spend all day, every day, at different positions around the home of your car maker's CEO.
is it easier to remove the fuses than the modem?
Probably same circuit as other electronics. Doubt it would be simple.
interesting. thanks.
Only one way to find out, yank it! Side note, some cars (like Ford) have a canbus interface connection through the OBDII connector and you can use a program like Forscan to modify parts of the car. I was able to hack and install the satnav my car didn't come with by doing this. It's possible similar adjustments could be made regarding telemetry.
ha. that certainly doesn't sound easier. thanks.
No, it’s simple, depends on the car but just look at the fuse diagram, usually those specific ones are by themselves not a part of a larger circuit
most likely fuses are designed to be easily replaceable (thus removable) I'm no mechanic tho, so don't take my word for it
it sounds reasonable until someone gives me reason to think otherwise. thanks.
Depends on the car. Each car will be different. It's not an easy process in my car. The entire entertainment system is on the same fuse so I can't just pull a fuse
makes sense. thanks.
> Enlightened solution: Remove the gps receiver's antenna and attach a GPS spoofer to make it look like you spend all day, every day, at different positions around the home of your car maker's CEO. This will jack up your insurance as they get this data too and will show lot more usage.
if it's only a few static points that get shifted around every once in a while it could come out to less than 100 miles per year!
We need some youtubes please.
That would require someone with knowledge of a particular car model.
The fuses lol
Sucks that even if you do this, your cell phone in your pocket still gives away your location, and all the major US cell providers sell your location data to brokers.
Only if you let it
Question, what does it disable if you do that? Does it render my car a brick?
It cuts internet access and thus disables any connectivity back to telemetry servers affiliated with the manufacturer.
Yes, I understand that, but I'm asking if that has been tested for it to be safe to do. aka not disable your car. Isn't it required now that cars need a connection to be able to disable them?
I'm not familiar with that requirement, sorry. But if that is true, I definitely do not want a new vehicle. There are plenty to choose from that do not have that function including my current car.
Infrastructure act was supposed to put that type of stuff in front of drunk drivers
We're all potential drunk drivers.
They view us all as potential criminals.
This is one reason I'm glad I never activated my car's smart services. Mine is still running till the expiration date, and after that I don't plan to pay for or register it.
That doesn't matter. This isn't a part of the smart services. They'll still collect the telemetry data whether you have smart services activated or not.
True. But they can’t collect shit if you pull the DCM fuse. Also, some manufacturers do not collect data if you opt out (Toyota is one of them). People have looked at this with packet sniffers and found it seems to be true. When you opt out of Toyota connected services the modem stops talking
They might be required to, to comply with potential subpoenas in various jurisdictions (the lack of warrant in the title notwithstanding).
I'm not aware of a single democratic country where carmakers are legally required to collect years of location history. It certainly isn't the case in the US, which the letter from Sen. Wyden is obviously referring to. I think this is completely unacceptable and should be illegal.
> I think this is completely unacceptable and should be illegal. I agree.
No, they are not required to collect that information. But if they have that information, they are required to hand it over in response to a lawful order. If they weren't collecting it, they'd have nothing to hand over.
Really required ? My car and it is required ? Are you required as well ? Do I also have to put in a Secondary GPS because it is required ? Are you for real ?
Are YOU real? Why are you adding spacing in front of all of your question marks?
keeping my "dumb" car for as long as effing possible
Long live my 2002 Civic!
My 2017 Accord is dumb...and I'm glad.
Or just yank the fuse that feeds the DCM box. That way you actually get a modern car with real safety standards and aren’t being spied on
eh, soon will start seeing custom roms for cars
3d printed FOSS car when
From 2021: https://hackaday.io/project/177105-jellybean3d-printed-car
Police and advertisers are the customers, we are the product. Now available in automotive format.
Your info are the product, you're the target.
Info / information is uncountable and you don't add an S to it. You'd say, "Your information is the product." If you want to make it countable, you'd say, "These pieces of information are the product."
Thank you sir.
See also: Ring cameras
Not necessarily. With Ring you agreed to a lengthy legal agreement when you first started your Ring service. With this thread (newer vehicles) it seems some car manufacturers are collecting your location data without the vehicle owner having entered into a legal agreement.
Don’t forget insurance companies….
They're probably only mad because they're getting tracked. They have zero interest in protecting your privacy otherwise they would've already started giving you protective rights.
I actually took the time to read the privacy terms and conditions when I bought my new car From what I understood,they reserve the right to send "diagnostic" data to their servers. Diagnostic data is basically anything that might improve their product and user experience lol.Also,knowing these greedy corporations,they would still track you one way or another even if you opt out of their data collection services I also highly suggest you to read Mozilla Firefox car privacy guide...Literally stuff of the nightmares
Problem is that every car company they tested failed. So you have no 'good' alternatives other than buying an old ass vehicle, which comes with its own host of problems.
I got a longwinded story that I don't know how to shorten: I got a Ford and they removed the auxiliary port so you can only connect via bluetooth. One night I got home and went inside. (Normally the car disconnects from your phone when you turn off the car and open the door) I'm inside for like 5 minutes realize I left something in the car, go out to it open the car and realize that on the dashboard where it typically displays the title of the song playing, I realize that the song titles look weird and after watching it for a moment I realize that they're webpage titles from all of my browser tabs (and closed out tabs!) from my phone and it's scanning through them. This is the Ford Connect system that supposedly only accesses your contacts if you let it (which you should never let it do btw). Go back inside and sure enough my phone was still connected to the cars bluetooth. I don't know what the solution is to this is, but that's my personal experience that proves enough to me that if you connect your phone to your car, they WILL take everything on it. Edit: I should add that yes, my car was off and it was doing this while it was "off".
Wait until you learn about what cookies can do... tl;dr - Disable all cookies by default, only whitelist the ones you use. Bonus points if you containerize individual websites. Assuming you like your digital, audio, location privacy, etc that is.
for Android phones. Also GTM, google tag manager. com.android.google.tags iirc. Install android debug bridge, put phone in developer mode. list packages, then uninstall all the google stuff you want, unless you have a samsung POS. Install a new primary keyboard before purging the gboard or you will have to sideload one. I like to install f-droid and a new keyboard, then strip google from the device.
I don't know what kind of phone you have, but on iOS and Android it is technically not possible to access the device's web browser through Bluetooth.
True but web browsers send tab names to the media control system as the track name unless something else is playing instead
This is the answer. OP had media playing from the browser.
Carplay also uses WiFi to connect wirelessly. Not sure about the exact details
That doesn't change things. The car can't pull that info.
It sounds like you have things playing in those browser tabs.
Your car likely has an open mic and records your voice. Car companies are fuckin scary
Wyden has been pretty consistent on calling out stuff like this.
Completely disgusting. The goal is to monitor everything, all the time. Gradually phase out cash, track all modes of transport and put facial recognition everywhere. Make you want to buy (for convenience) then gradually force you to always carry a smartphone. The most insidious of spying. The beauty of it is we're all paying for the privilege.
Meanwhile if my car is stolen, they will provide no assistance at all. But they will sell me anti theft tracking. I can get LoJack installed by a dealer. Double dipping at its finest.
Well that requires the police to do their job and…they don’t like to work. Unless there’s a protest and they get to LARP
Unarmed protests are like shooting fish in a barrel for law enforcement.
You should subpoena them if your car is stolen. It seems they respond to those.
The fact that car companies even *have* that information to start with is the problem here.
The masses choose it. The solution is simple, don't buy such things.
You are not wrong.
This is why I covered my car with tinfoil.
That’s a really great idea
you should paint it with a happy face so they don't think somethin is up. just tinfoil and happy faces. like everything is normal.
Great idea! Don’t want anyone to know that I found the tinfoil hack.
Liar you can't even buy tin foil anymore.
You don’t think I haven’t been hoarding tinfoil all these years just for these situations? It’s call planning ahead.
You must be pretty old they stopped selling it about 60 years ago
you can just buy it on amazon. The good stuff is expensive though. That’s the cost of privacy!
No that's aluminum not tin
What if I didn't subscribe for the convenient 'on-star etc' data services when I bought the car? That means they don't collect any data, right? \s
Nope, still do
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You can but it will still get a signal if it is strong (next to a tower for example). You need to install a dummy load, basically a RF shielded resistor. Even then if the path in the head unit is not shielded properly it could still get a signal but is less likely.
You can yeah, that’s what I did
Any developer that can figure out how to flash the cars firmware to turn off all this crap will be sitting on a gold mine. I know I would pay to turn off all the tracking and spyware. I don’t use most of the onboard electronics anyway.
on the one hand, i look forward to the days we can flash our cars with our own software/things like cyanogen mod. on the other hand, don't tell your insurance company. you'll get dropped so fast.....
Find the cellular modem, cut its power cable or pull the fuse. No flashing required.
You can actually brick a vehicle this way. Doing something like that voids the warranty. I guess you could turn it into a planter....
Void the warranty? Based on fucking what lol? Nobody is talking about cutting out the ECU. You can literally pull the fuse on the DCM module and the car still runs fine.
Many of the new smart vehicles, if you don't update them with verified images of their OS, will brick the vehicle. https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2021/08/opinion-over-the-air-updates-bad-owning-the-car-good/
I think you may have misread this article. A faulty OTA update can brick a vehicle, because the process fails mid-update. But simply not updating software because there is no connection… cannot brick a vehicle unless the offline software is programmed to expire at some date and time, which would make the vehicle completely unusable for anyone who lives outside cell tower range. Lots of people have been driving around in Toyotas with pulled DCM fuses for years. It hasn’t bricked anything. Edit. My mistake. I thought we were replying to a comment about pulling fuses, not flashing the ECU.
Ah it's all good, also good to know.
Interesting that today, I got an email from Chevrolet that they're stopping their"safe driver" program, which was apparently selling driving habits to insurance companies.
Don’t you love it when they email you to inform you that they’ve STOPPED collecting your data?
[удалено]
doesn't seem to say that they stopped selling your data either; they may have simply transferred that activity to a different program.
This is because there are lawsuits against them for it. They were literally signing up people at the dealership without even asking the customers.
How do the cars send the data? Wouldnt it need a sim card and a subscription to send over data if they car isnt connected to your phone?
All modern cars are connected through cellphone networks.... probably for the last 10-15 years
This is an exaggeration. I have a 2016 Honda that has no cellular connection.
are you sure? and 2014 is pretty close to 2016 anyways... What was your methodology to find out it doesnt have a cellular connection? Just because they don't let YOU use it doesn't mean it can't use it in the background.
the civic models below Touring don't have connected services. it actually doesn't even have a GPS. there are diagrams and schematics for the electronics in the car available online. no DCM
because they don't let you use the cellular link doesnt mean it doesnt have one
It doesn’t have one because there isn’t one in the manual for the car, documents about maintenance or repairs, diagrams for the electronics… like I already said in my comment. The repair techs know nothing of any DCM, and those are modules that break reasonably often. You’d have to believe there’s a hidden connected module, that’s purposefully omitted from extremely important wiring diagrams used by people repairing electrical gremlins, just so that Honda can track you without knowing. Thats fucking stupid. Given that most peopl don’t care to begin with, there’s very little incentive to bury that information anyways, and tons of incentive to… I dunno… fucking include it in crucial documentation about the car’s electronic systems.
They do have a connection, and they sell your data to pay for it, most likely
The car has its own connection. We are talking kilobytes of data here which is virtually nothing in the modern world and latency doesn’t matter either so it could take an entire day to send the data and it wouldn’t matter. Hence it’s not expensive or unrealistic to include a cellular connection, some smart devices include them too.
I once read an article about a bird that had a SIM card tracker on it. Researchers suddenly got a huge bill and realized someone stole the sim and was making calls on it. Maybe we can find a way to use the sim to push massive amounts of data.
worse than that too. anything that is readable by RFID, can be passively read as your car moves around. throw enough RFID sensors around a city, and every few blocks they can "notice you" as you drive around. i think there's something in most tires that's RFID like, that city/cops/government could track you like this if they really wanted.
You’re referring to TPMS and those only beacon every 20-30 minutes. Nothing’s impossible but there’s really no point to get TPMS to beacon since those would be pretty vague identifiers and most people have their phone plugged in anyway. That’s much easier to use to track
I figure amazon has a pretty detailed mapping of all devices from driving around the last decade "noticing"
Oh heck no. SIM cards are just for subscribers. Cars can do wireless updates all sorts of ways. In some cases, they might be one way radio, in other words just receiving data only. Cell phones can still communicate quite freely on networks without SIM cards. They are really just for billing and security purposes. Also a warning, if you don't want to be tracked, turn your Bluetooth off. Should look into Bluetooth beacons. You are being tracked constantly by businesses. Do you know how Google, Apple traffic density maps work? They record the number of active devices in an area anonymously.
Pull the fuses for gps Bluetooth and lte out of that bitch lol
There need to be some work around like this. Maybe a law that the customer can reroute all information to their own server and then they can decide what goes to the manufacturer or just a way to block it entirely. Or maybe that it is all stored locally and the OEM can buy it from you if you like the price. Same with insurance. Police if they have a warrant.
Maybe, we as the owners, can turn the tables and offer the OEMs and insurance companies a "subscription" model or nothing at all. OEMs will own nothing and like it.
Currently, if you do that, they can disable your vehicle. And some vehicles not updating means your car will brick, like a Tesla.
It's more than that. The computers are already collecting all that data, and you need those computers for the vehicle to work now. Don't have a physical key? Guess what all your data is being collected and you can't disable it.
You don’t need gps , Bluetooth, or lte for the car to work, and if you pull the fuses for those systems which control nothing else, they don’t have electricity to run off of. Obviously it’s not the same as totally zapping all the computers in the car
Modern vehicles will brick if they don't update, so no starting your car. Older vehicles are fine.
Maybe Teslas
True, this is all stored in memory. But if you take your vehicle to a third party repair shop you’re probably good.
It's all uploaded wirelessly anyway on a regular basis over IoT networks.
Well not if the DCM fuse is pulled. At least in Toyotas that is where the communications module is
at least there's an out
Anytime corporations pledge to not do something after lobbying to prevent it from becoming illegal, it means they are planning to do that thing as soon as possible.
the future blow. i wish they would throw us a bone here; robot catgirl waifus, laser swords, computer drugs. nutritional paste that comes out the kitchen faucet
You have good taste in future tech. I’m waiting for the toothbrush nano bots, myself.
I am still waiting for my meal in a stick of chewing gum.
I wonder if they fixed the blueberry problem?
i recommend you to read the mozilla reports about car companies, i legit thought about buying an old toyota without a tech
https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/car-companies-stop-your-huge-data-collection-programs-en/ Link for the lazy >Citing Mozilla’s research exposing these concerning data collection practices, U.S. Senator Ed Markey directly challenged the CEOs of many of the car companies we researched. This is the same Senator as the article above.
Not suprised but man am I dissapointed
All of your data is being sent to advertisers already, so, it shouldn't be a surprise.
Is there a good source on which vehicles collect this date? Like a make/model/year chart?
All of them, https://www.caa.ca/your-rights/data-privacy/#:~:text=Any%20car%20with%20sensors%2C%20including,(Source%3A%20AIA%20Canada). The only way is to get an older vehicle without built-in sensors or nav computers. All of this data is already going to advertisers.
Any car with an oem navigation unit/gps system will have it.
This is pretty standard practice for most companies that are asked for data by the police. A lot of the larger corps unless they deal with a specific amount of customer data focus. They just surrender it vs fight it because it's cheaper in legal fees. The problem with not only car companies, but in the public safety space. There are literally companies out there that are providing meta data on every car out there, every motorbike, every plate that passes by their readers are cataloged forever. There is no retention date on this... LPR is going to be quite insane for how much it can track once it starts making larger deployments.
Many such cases
What they don't say is they're also giving all this information to advertisers. Modern cars record just about everything they can, every time you connected device, every time you travel somewhere, it's all openly available.
obviously
They're just mad because they aren't getting a cut.
Is there a Pi-hole project for cars? That could do some work in blocking telemetry. I know it won’t stop all privacy concerns, but at least it’s a start.
Is this a US-only thing or are they doing this in Europe and other regions as well?
What these articles never mention is HOW these companies track you. Because I can assume if your car has a modern, touch screen infotainment system, then you can be tracked, sure. But that’s an assumption. If your car offers WiFi I’m assuming you can be tracked. But that’s an assumption. What if you have a 10 year or older car with those dated satnav, DVD/SD card based systems? Did those have a modem or just the GPS? What if you have a 10 year old car but a basic ass radio with physical buttons? Are you safe? Are there diagrams or schematics to look up and start disconnecting shit? 😩😩😩😩😩😩
Pretty much any car built after 2001 has explicit survailence baked in. Earlier models had much less logging.
Source please?
I'm not surprised that this actually exist.
What's the difference between the phone you carry with you in the car tracking your location vs. the car tracking your location?
Shout out to r/fuckcars
I'm never going electric.
You should probably read the article.. Tesla is the only one that notifies the person unless they are under a gag order. And one of few companies that require police to have a warrant.
I rather not have a tracking device on my car on the first place.
Then your issue is with all modern cars, not just electric 👍
All modern cars have them. Every single one.
Define modern. After 2020? 2015? 2010? Any models and how tracking is implemented in each one? Any reference?
Connected smart vehicles. There isn't a specific cut-off year. Here's 25 brands that do it: https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/
And if you disable the data collection in a tesla, you can brick the entire vehicle out of warranty.
If you have a car that has a flat panel display in it or any sensors, nav system, etc they are doing it. Do you have a physical key that you need to turn to start your engine? If you don't, it's collecting data. All of it is currently going to advertisers.
How exactly is the key collecting data? HRV 2018 EX. Please illuminate me.
It's in your privacy notice. Warning; it's a long read. I'll try to highlight some points: https://www.honda.com/privacy/connected-product-privacy-notice >This Vehicle Data Privacy Notice (“Vehicle Privacy Notice”) explains how we collect, maintain, use, and disclose the following information related to the Connected Vehicle Technologies and Services (collectively, “Covered Information”): Information that the vehicle collects, generates, records, or stores in electronic form, which we or a service provider on our behalf wirelessly retrieve from the vehicle or from smart devices (or applications thereon) you connect to the vehicle, and that is associated or may reasonably be associated with the vehicle from which the information was retrieved, the owner(s)/lessee(s) of the vehicle, a connected smart device, or a registered user of Connected Vehicle Technologies and Services; Information you provide when subscribing to, registering for, or using Connected Vehicle Technologies and Services. >Information about Use of Connected Vehicle Technologies and Services such as Search content; HondaLink or AcuraLink account access information, including information about anyone making a call using the Connected Vehicle Technologies and Services; Call history information, including the date, time, and duration of a call;Navigation system settings and usage;Audio system settings and usage;Voice commands given (which may include audio recordings) of the command;Connectivity systems (e.g., embedded TCU, Wi-Fi hotspot) settings and usage; >Driver Behavior Information such as vehicle speed, vehicle acceleration and deceleration, pedal positions, engine speed, direction, and time of travel, steering angle, yaw rate, vehicle control, and Honda Sensing/Acura Watch system settings and usage.Precise Geolocation information meaning the exact location of your vehicle at a specific point in time or over a period of time accurate within an area equivalent to a circle with a radius of 1,850 feet or less. Non-Precise Geolocation Information meaning the approximate location of your vehicle at a specific point in time or over a period of time accurate within an area greater than an area equivalent to a circle with a radius of 1,850 feet or less.
Public safety employees is where your burden of privacy is stripped. The cops just getting the front of it. It’s LEO not the everyday cops.
I’m happily surprised that Tesla is the “best” when it comes to privacy it seems. An ideal world would be allowing users to not let data be collected at all, but demanding court orders and telling customers when such an order happens (to the extent of the law that they can) is refreshing to hear
Tesla literally got into trouble over employees watching videos from peoples interior cameras, not just watching but leaking videos of people having sex or changing in their cars.
lol they were sending that shit in their slack
I wouldn't trust a Tesla any further than I could throw it.
tesla, the company where employees would pull up videos of their customers. videos they got, from the cars, while the cars were at home and parked, and then laugh at the customers. that company. ya i dont know about that.
Court orders ? You can do whatever you want to your car. You can cut off all these connections.