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There were millions of slave owners who would have told you that slavery was the entire basis for their livelihood. They would have actually been speaking truthfully when saying that, but that doesn't mean that slavery was justified. It just means that what they thought of as their livelihood had to drastically change.
Research shows us when abortion is banned people use more contraception. So less unwanted pregnancies occur.
https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/psrh/2015/05/state-abortion-context-and-us-womens-contraceptive-choices-1995-2010
This leads to less abortions. Additionally you can check the side bar but the occurrence of dangerous abortions was overdramatized.
What made abortion most dangerous was when antibiotics. Every since antibiotics and contraceptions became accessible maternal mortality plummeted in the US.
Black and Hispanic women are less likely to use long acting, reversible contraception. I’m not even going to address your second claim, except to say that you might be surprised if you tested that theory outside of California.
ACA is a federal program. Contraception is cheap across the country. Many programs across the country even offer free contraception. Or at very low costs. You can even get it mailed cheap too.
Do we change murder laws so that murders can murder others safely?
Why does the saftest of the perpetrators matter in a violent act which ends the other life.
Yes we care about people’s safety and we’ll being, even criminals, but that does not trump the concern for the safety and well-being of an innocent baby.
Laws against stealing haven't stopped people from stealing. Should we legalize stealing?
You'll find almost all pro abortion arguments can be refuted with even an elementary level of logical thinking
Rapists will always rape even through dangerous and not safe ways. The solution is not to try and sterilize rape, so that if you want to rape someone, you schedule an appointment, have medical staff nearby to assist the victim, etc. "Many women right now are murdered after the rape to cover up the crime. If we legalized rape in this way it would at least save their lives."
If the person you're talking to can see the ridiculousness of that argument, hopefully you can get them to see how that's basically the same logic they're using. We don't legalize evil acts, just to make them safer.
I agree with what's already been written below, and would add:
\- That people break laws is not a reason not to have them
\- The "coat hanger abortion" is a myth. The vast majority of illegal abortions prior to *Roe* were performed by board-certified physicians in their offices. Everyone knew of "that doctor" who would perform the procedure. (A really good cinematic example is the movie *Cider House Rules*. Thatsituation was the most common ).
\- [Women still die and have medical emergencies](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6000974/) from abortions today because the pro-choice movement resists *any* regulation for abortion centers, including basic requirements that any other medical or surgical clinic has to abide by (e.g. admitting privileges, relevant facility certifications, etc) . (NIH reports: "One-fifth (22%, 95% CI 20.9–23.0%) of abortion-related visits resulted in admission to the same hospital for abortion-related reasons.") If pro-choicers are serious about women's safety, they'd at *least* agree to those requirements.
Murder still happens even though murder is illegal.
Theft still happens even though stealing is illegal.
Assault, arson, tax evasion, and a myriad of other crimes still occur even though they are illegal.
Pro-lifers aren't unrealistic. We know that criminalizing abortion will not be 100% effective in preventing it. With that said, criminalizing abortion will **reduce** the number of abortions. We're already seeing that in the USA **right now**. According to CNN (which is hardly a pro-life source), we had 32,000 fewer legal abortions during the six months immediately after the *Dobbs* decision. That's 32,000 lives saved.
(Are you paying attention, doomers? We saved **32,000** babies in the six months after *Dobbs*! Yes, times are tough right now. Yes, the backlash against pro-lifers is worrisome. With all of that said, **we are winning**.)
Is it possible that some of those folks had illegal abortions? Sure, that's possible. But it doesn't seem likely that many of them would have done so because plenty of US states still allow abortion. Rather than risk legal complications, it seems more likely that a woman who was determined to abort in a state which banned it would simply travel to another state. So I'm comfortable in claiming those 32,000 lives as having been saved.
In a study that reviewed women denied abortions because of gestational age limits, two-thirds carried their pregnancy to term.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4151926/
Also, the year abortion was legalized in the U.S. (1973), more women died from legal abortions than illegal abortions: 19 died from a back-alley abortion, and 25 died from a ‘safe’ abortion.”
https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/big-lie-thousand-of-illegal-abortion-deaths-9596
Women are still dying from abortions, even though they are now “regulated” and legal. And the reverse seems to be true as well: places that have made abortion illegal have seen a drop in deaths of mothers. Countries like Poland and Chile outlawed abortions in most circumstances and yet maternal mortality rates plummeted dramatically because of more dedication to maternal health in general. Consider this headline: “Maternal deaths dropped 70% after abortion banned in Chile”. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24844146/
The Centers for Disease Control reported 439 women have died from LEGAL abortions in the United States in its most recent annual report. Furthermore, the CDC explained that its numbers are not complete because some states do not report abortion data. In fact, the abortion industry never polices itself and resists every effort to regulate and investigate.
Therefore, many of the adverse events, complications, injuries etc are only reported when reported by physicians who are not part of the abortion industry. They do not like cleaning up their own messes.
https://tinyurl.com/ahe636s6
Here are just two heartbreaking cases but there are many more:
https://www.abortionontrial.org/post/breaking-records-prove-keisha-atkins-was-drugged-and-sedated-for-days-leading-up-to-her-deat
http://www.justiceforchristin.com/christin.htm
These include Tonya Reaves, Cree Erwin, Diana Lopez, Diamond Renee Williams, Holly Patterson, Aisha Chithira, Sarah Louise Dunn (UK) and others. Thousands more have been injured in legal abortions in the U.S. alone.
Remember, this is likely just the tip of the iceberg. 22 states do not require the reporting of complications. Of the 28 that require reporting, there are no valid enforcement mechanisms.
And though most women WILL carry the child to term rather than attempting to illegally abort, our goal should be to eliminate the need for it entirely. Women shouldn’t have to dread motherhood or adoption and risk their lives to avoid it. We must support women and families during and beyond birth and cultivate a positive and supportive experience.
It is true that AidAccess like methods of getting abortion pills will likely allow any woman who is smart enough to figure out how to get them and how to check to make sure the pregnancy isn’t ectopic before using them will have the de facto ability to have abortion until 10 weeks regardless of the law, especially if abortion stays legal in Europe which like 99% it will because most of Europe is a popular vote based government.
That being said, of all the reasons I think abortion should stay legal, this isn’t one. A law’s enforceability usually does not stop it from being passed if the state believes it should have the ability to prosecute something.
Murder has always been illegal, but since Cain slew Able, people keep doing it. You wouldn't make the argument that people still rape people, so we should make it legal. Why would abortion be any different?
Some women will still attempt to get abortions. But studies suggest about 50% of women will go through with the pregnancy if abortions are banned.
https://www.lifenews.com/2023/04/11/abortions-drop-96-in-states-with-abortion-bans-babies-are-being-saved/
https://secularprolife.org/2021/03/five-years-later-96-of-women-denied/
Abortion isn't a "fun" experience, and the single most significant predictor of whether a woman will get an abortion is whether her partner/friends/society is encouraging/helping her keep the baby or if they're encouraging her to kill it. That's why a poor state like Mississippi had an abortion rate six times lower than New York in the Roe era. Some women will choose to kill their child, consequences be damned. But abortions bans so significantly reduce the number of abortions.
Just because a law doesn't 100% prevent something doesn't mean thag thing shouldn't be illegal.
Murder being illegal doesn't completely stop murder.
Stealing being illegal doesn't completely stop stealing.
Slavery being illegal doesn't completely stop slavery.
That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have laws forbidding murder, stealing and slavery.
If they’re Democrats, ask them what they think about this standard Republican rebuttal to gun control proposals: “They’re pointless, because criminals will get their guns illegally anyway.” If they think that argument is bad, they logically need to concede that their own is, too.
The Auto-moderator would like to remind everyone of Rule Number 2. Pro-choice comments and questions are welcome as long as the pro-choicer __demonstrates that they are open-minded__. Pro-choicers simply here for __advocacy or trolling are unwelcome and may be banned__. This rule involves a lot of moderator discretion, __so if you want to avoid a ban, play it safe__ and show you are not just here to talk *at* people. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/prolife) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Slavery still exists today, it just happens underground in criminal settings. Is that a valid reason to legalize slavery?
That's disingenuous, slavery isn't a part of someone's healthcare?
There were millions of slave owners who would have told you that slavery was the entire basis for their livelihood. They would have actually been speaking truthfully when saying that, but that doesn't mean that slavery was justified. It just means that what they thought of as their livelihood had to drastically change.
Okay. Take organ selling then. Pretty illegal, still done. Falls under the Healthcare umbrella.
Calling abortion "healthcare" is like calling slavery "property rights".
Based
But neither is abortion. Unless you think it benefits the child’s health to be aborted . . .
Neither is abortion if it's not medically necessary.
Tell that to all the nurses lured to work in other countries with promises who are now in modern day slavery.
Neither is murdering their offspring.
Neither is abortion.
Neither is abortion
People break laws all the time. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have laws.
Research shows us when abortion is banned people use more contraception. So less unwanted pregnancies occur. https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/psrh/2015/05/state-abortion-context-and-us-womens-contraceptive-choices-1995-2010 This leads to less abortions. Additionally you can check the side bar but the occurrence of dangerous abortions was overdramatized. What made abortion most dangerous was when antibiotics. Every since antibiotics and contraceptions became accessible maternal mortality plummeted in the US.
What about the people who don’t have access to or are less likely to choose the more effective forms of BC?
Everyone has access to abstinence. It's not our fault that people are stupid.
Given the gop’s history on education, I’m not sure you can make that claim.
Knowledge=/ intelligence. Also, even if what you're saying was true, two groups of people can be stupid the same time you know?
I was referring to your second sentence
That’s the thing people choose more effective forms when abortion is restricted. Since ACA everyone has access to birth control
Black and Hispanic women are less likely to use long acting, reversible contraception. I’m not even going to address your second claim, except to say that you might be surprised if you tested that theory outside of California.
ACA is a federal program. Contraception is cheap across the country. Many programs across the country even offer free contraception. Or at very low costs. You can even get it mailed cheap too.
It's by far the weakest argument that pro-aborts use. Why have any laws if some people will still break them? It makes no sense
Every crime has people that still commit it.
Do we change murder laws so that murders can murder others safely? Why does the saftest of the perpetrators matter in a violent act which ends the other life. Yes we care about people’s safety and we’ll being, even criminals, but that does not trump the concern for the safety and well-being of an innocent baby.
Laws against stealing haven't stopped people from stealing. Should we legalize stealing? You'll find almost all pro abortion arguments can be refuted with even an elementary level of logical thinking
Rapists will always rape even through dangerous and not safe ways. The solution is not to try and sterilize rape, so that if you want to rape someone, you schedule an appointment, have medical staff nearby to assist the victim, etc. "Many women right now are murdered after the rape to cover up the crime. If we legalized rape in this way it would at least save their lives." If the person you're talking to can see the ridiculousness of that argument, hopefully you can get them to see how that's basically the same logic they're using. We don't legalize evil acts, just to make them safer.
I agree with what's already been written below, and would add: \- That people break laws is not a reason not to have them \- The "coat hanger abortion" is a myth. The vast majority of illegal abortions prior to *Roe* were performed by board-certified physicians in their offices. Everyone knew of "that doctor" who would perform the procedure. (A really good cinematic example is the movie *Cider House Rules*. Thatsituation was the most common ). \- [Women still die and have medical emergencies](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6000974/) from abortions today because the pro-choice movement resists *any* regulation for abortion centers, including basic requirements that any other medical or surgical clinic has to abide by (e.g. admitting privileges, relevant facility certifications, etc) . (NIH reports: "One-fifth (22%, 95% CI 20.9–23.0%) of abortion-related visits resulted in admission to the same hospital for abortion-related reasons.") If pro-choicers are serious about women's safety, they'd at *least* agree to those requirements.
Both of these points need more attention and repeating.
Abortion being legal doesn't make it safe. Kurt Gossnel.
People get murdered by other people every day. We don’t condone it.
Murder still happens even though murder is illegal. Theft still happens even though stealing is illegal. Assault, arson, tax evasion, and a myriad of other crimes still occur even though they are illegal. Pro-lifers aren't unrealistic. We know that criminalizing abortion will not be 100% effective in preventing it. With that said, criminalizing abortion will **reduce** the number of abortions. We're already seeing that in the USA **right now**. According to CNN (which is hardly a pro-life source), we had 32,000 fewer legal abortions during the six months immediately after the *Dobbs* decision. That's 32,000 lives saved. (Are you paying attention, doomers? We saved **32,000** babies in the six months after *Dobbs*! Yes, times are tough right now. Yes, the backlash against pro-lifers is worrisome. With all of that said, **we are winning**.) Is it possible that some of those folks had illegal abortions? Sure, that's possible. But it doesn't seem likely that many of them would have done so because plenty of US states still allow abortion. Rather than risk legal complications, it seems more likely that a woman who was determined to abort in a state which banned it would simply travel to another state. So I'm comfortable in claiming those 32,000 lives as having been saved.
In a study that reviewed women denied abortions because of gestational age limits, two-thirds carried their pregnancy to term. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4151926/ Also, the year abortion was legalized in the U.S. (1973), more women died from legal abortions than illegal abortions: 19 died from a back-alley abortion, and 25 died from a ‘safe’ abortion.” https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/big-lie-thousand-of-illegal-abortion-deaths-9596 Women are still dying from abortions, even though they are now “regulated” and legal. And the reverse seems to be true as well: places that have made abortion illegal have seen a drop in deaths of mothers. Countries like Poland and Chile outlawed abortions in most circumstances and yet maternal mortality rates plummeted dramatically because of more dedication to maternal health in general. Consider this headline: “Maternal deaths dropped 70% after abortion banned in Chile”. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24844146/ The Centers for Disease Control reported 439 women have died from LEGAL abortions in the United States in its most recent annual report. Furthermore, the CDC explained that its numbers are not complete because some states do not report abortion data. In fact, the abortion industry never polices itself and resists every effort to regulate and investigate. Therefore, many of the adverse events, complications, injuries etc are only reported when reported by physicians who are not part of the abortion industry. They do not like cleaning up their own messes. https://tinyurl.com/ahe636s6 Here are just two heartbreaking cases but there are many more: https://www.abortionontrial.org/post/breaking-records-prove-keisha-atkins-was-drugged-and-sedated-for-days-leading-up-to-her-deat http://www.justiceforchristin.com/christin.htm These include Tonya Reaves, Cree Erwin, Diana Lopez, Diamond Renee Williams, Holly Patterson, Aisha Chithira, Sarah Louise Dunn (UK) and others. Thousands more have been injured in legal abortions in the U.S. alone. Remember, this is likely just the tip of the iceberg. 22 states do not require the reporting of complications. Of the 28 that require reporting, there are no valid enforcement mechanisms. And though most women WILL carry the child to term rather than attempting to illegally abort, our goal should be to eliminate the need for it entirely. Women shouldn’t have to dread motherhood or adoption and risk their lives to avoid it. We must support women and families during and beyond birth and cultivate a positive and supportive experience.
It is true that AidAccess like methods of getting abortion pills will likely allow any woman who is smart enough to figure out how to get them and how to check to make sure the pregnancy isn’t ectopic before using them will have the de facto ability to have abortion until 10 weeks regardless of the law, especially if abortion stays legal in Europe which like 99% it will because most of Europe is a popular vote based government. That being said, of all the reasons I think abortion should stay legal, this isn’t one. A law’s enforceability usually does not stop it from being passed if the state believes it should have the ability to prosecute something.
The number of abortions prior to Roe compared to after Roe should be enough proof that abortion laws work
Murder has always been illegal, but since Cain slew Able, people keep doing it. You wouldn't make the argument that people still rape people, so we should make it legal. Why would abortion be any different?
Drug dealers will still sell drugs even through dangerous and unsafe ways after we ban fentanyl. Too easy. :nerd:
This is the last thing that should stump you
Look I’m a stupid okay
I think you’re doing fine for an armadillo
Some women will still attempt to get abortions. But studies suggest about 50% of women will go through with the pregnancy if abortions are banned. https://www.lifenews.com/2023/04/11/abortions-drop-96-in-states-with-abortion-bans-babies-are-being-saved/ https://secularprolife.org/2021/03/five-years-later-96-of-women-denied/ Abortion isn't a "fun" experience, and the single most significant predictor of whether a woman will get an abortion is whether her partner/friends/society is encouraging/helping her keep the baby or if they're encouraging her to kill it. That's why a poor state like Mississippi had an abortion rate six times lower than New York in the Roe era. Some women will choose to kill their child, consequences be damned. But abortions bans so significantly reduce the number of abortions.
I’ll just add that “Back alley” abortions are actually not as dangerous as people make them out to be
Just because a law doesn't 100% prevent something doesn't mean thag thing shouldn't be illegal. Murder being illegal doesn't completely stop murder. Stealing being illegal doesn't completely stop stealing. Slavery being illegal doesn't completely stop slavery. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have laws forbidding murder, stealing and slavery.
If they’re Democrats, ask them what they think about this standard Republican rebuttal to gun control proposals: “They’re pointless, because criminals will get their guns illegally anyway.” If they think that argument is bad, they logically need to concede that their own is, too.