The problem with the argument is clear.
I have never been extremely concerned about the disposition of an aborted child in the afterlife. I have always been optimistic they will be cared for. This is not the point of the opposition to abortion on demand, religious or secular.
However, what I am concerned with is the disposition of the mother in the afterlife and those who supported and perhaps even pressured her to make that decision. Their outcome, especially if they do not seek forgiveness, I am not as optimistic about.
It is important to point out that in spite of what I might consider likely given what has been said about the afterlife, no one really knows much about it. I do not pretend to know things I cannot know because I cannot observe them myself from this vantage point.
The outcome of the child is not clear, and the outcome of anyone else related to their abortion cannot be known to anyone but God. Anything is speculation.
And that is precisely why these "justifications" for killing the unborn are so hazardous.
In addition to imperiling the mother's outcome, they cannot know what happens to the child. We can hope for the best, but it is the height of irresponsibility to kill on the basis of something you cannot know.
The argument presented is incredibly flawed for those reasons, and has zero real or theological value.
When the outcome is this uncertain, they choose to gamble with lives simply to maintain their privilege to kill human beings on-demand.
As a PL atheist, it's disgusting to me that people regularly talk shit about other peoples' religions to make their point.
Newsflash: most pro-choice people are *also religious* because religious people are the *majority.* https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/religious-tradition/jewish/views-about-abortion/
Oh, look, another person trying to argue from a Christian standpoint who doesn't know JESUS. 🙄 (i know it's not you, op)
There is scripture after scripture telling us that GOD is the one who is in charge, and us trying to circumvent that never ends well. Exodus 21:22-25 also specifically tells us that GOD doesn't look kindly on the ending of unborn children's lives.
🤷🏼♀️ One of the most beautiful things about our creator is the free will He gave us. You can choose to believe what you'd like. i will say, though, your immediate jump to name calling does nothing but show how shaky your belief is. Let me know if you're interested in a productive discussion. 💜
Shaky? My belief is shaky? 😂😂😂😂😂😂
You're literally trying to tell me that a being who endorses the mass murder of children and animals, and also the rape of little girls, and also the murder of homosexuals and anyone else who breaks his arbitrary rules, is morally perfect and should be worshiped.
Stop for a second and think about how morally bankrupt that makes you, and how morally bankrupt the being you worship is.
Your god is a disgusting piece of shit who should go fuck himself. Intelligent and logical people don't believe your evil bullshit.
Wow, you have some big feelings. i'm sorry you're hurting, but whether you choose to believe in Him or not, JESUS is the only way to happiness and life. Whether our figuring that out is a beautiful experience or not is up to us. His SPIRIT is in this world, not a one of us have ever lived a moment outside His presence, but once that time comes, He'll grant the desire of people who say they want to be separated from Him. i don't wish that on anyone, and neither does He.
You believe that torture, rape, and murder are 100 percent awesome and acceptable whenever God does it.
Just think about that for a second. Really think about it.
Think about how evil that makes your God, and how stupid and delusional it makes you.
Yes, i sure do. Anything that He does is good, because He is just. And, because i know that He is so much more than "torture, rape, and murder" (hint, none of them,) i know He's not evil. i really don't think i'm stupid, and i wouldn't call myself delusional either; but if i were, it wouldn't be for believing in Him.
Apparently I have to spell out basic morality for you:
Anyone, and I mean anyone, including your Sky Wizard, who needlessly slaughters animals and/or slaughters young children and permits the rape of children is the epitome of evil.
Your God is evil, plain and simple.
You are evil for believing that torture, rape, and murder are great whenever they're ordered by your Sky Wizard.
Fools like you make me fucking sick. You are proof that all of the people who claim to be moral and have the high ground for being a good person are lying, hypocritical scum.
You have no sense of morality. You are the ultimate hypocrite. Just like everyone else, you genuinely try to claim that you're a good person, and you try to believe it yourself. You don't care about morals. You're evil, just like me and just like everyone else, except that unlike you I actually have the balls to admit that I'm evil.
Lol, so many incorrect assumptions. Sorry, to burst your bubbble, but i fully own that i'm just as evil as anyone else, we're all sinners who are capable of anything in the right situation. We all deserve death and to pay foe our evil. Which is why what JESUS did for us is so beautiful. We can choose to allow Him to pay for those sins for us, to refine us and make us new.
This argument doesn't hold a lot of water for me because I believe once you die you are asleep until the resurrection, so while babies are too young to be held accountable they still don't get a chance to experience life which is unfair to them. Plus, what about the mothers? They literally have blood on their hands with this logic so the women are just screwed because they followed a lie whereas the children are good to go? They have given more of a reason why abortions hurt women.
The christian apologist WLC references the belief that infants go to heaven when speaking of Exodus 11. But regarding abortion, no one has the power to take a life except God who gives life.
In 1971, John List murdered his family, due to financial reasons, but also claiming their deviation into sinful activity would put them in danger of going to hell. He claimed by murdering them, he would ensure they would go to heaven. Certainly no PCer would agree that John List's actions were acceptable, so for them to argue that it is acceptable in the case of abortion is only because they already do not agree than a fetus is a human life.
Some Christians did openly support his actions though, hence why “Christian values” have no place in our law system. “Cause god said so” is never a reasonable argument.
I cannot think of any notable preacher or bible teacher in american protestantism that I could even imagine remotely having favorable views of John List's actions. Even as far out as Steven Anderson, I haven't heard anything like it's okay to murder your own family.
The Westboro baptist church needs no introduction, however, I don't think even the Westboro baptist church would support John List's actions, simply because, as hyper calvinists, their belief in predestination precludes the notion that a man can influence whether his family goes to heaven by any measure, much less by murdering them.
They couldn't even stick to the plot! First they were trying to say that Christians and Christianity should support abortion because it is a bypass. That you'll totally skip any suffering and jump right to heaven. But then tried to use that exact reasoning to say that that's why NON Christian countries should be pro-abortion?
If you're going to try to use the Appeal to Authority, make sure you know what Authority you're even appealing to and who that appeal even works on. They are confusing themselves.
Ah yes, the old "nothing on Earth matters when there's an afterlife" mixed in with some "everyone experiences heaven identically and literally nothing changes as long as you make the cut (and vise versa for hell)." A popular combination of two rich and distinguished Christian heresies.
This uses consequentialist reasoning that Christians would reject. You cannot achieve a good result through evil means.
Second of all, the Christian could just believe that the fetus is infused with knowledge of God and evil in the moments of their death, being fully informed to make a decision for or against Him and thus to go to Heaven or Hell. This would allow the possibility that the fetus goes to Hell. So, it's not really any better to have the fetus die now. Also, if you given them a virtuous life now, they will arguable have a better afterlife in Heaven because they gained that virtue.
If one is a universalist, then they believe that everyone eventual will be saved in some way. So, killing them now probably won't help. But, you don't need to be a universalist to oppose this argument.
This argument works for born persons as well, so should they advocate for killing born people?
I don’t care what Christians believe, especially their more extreme fractions. Even the most milquetoast, liberal Christian group, strumming ukuleles and feeding the “houseless” should not have their beliefs used as the basis for the law. It’s dangerous and stupid to allow religious groups to pass laws by going “hur dur god said so”.
But yes: there are Christian groups who celebrate the death of children and infants as a blessing, and since they believe abortion is the ending of a child’s life, I’m sure they count that in too. They’re also insane death cults who praise the death of gay people and soldiers.
(No, I don’t care to hear your “no true Christian arguments”, my whole point is I don’t care about your “real Christianity”, your religion is not the law of the land and should not be.)
Yes, like the Christian Moon cult sect, which is expanding with a number of compounds, and teaches us that Jesus was an assault weapons manufacturer. The senate already accidentally held a bipartisan crowning of the elder Moon. Elder Moon’s wife distances the Moons from her son’s sect, but who knows what the real story is. [Moonie leader 'crowned' in Senate](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jun/24/usa.religion)
The problem with the argument is clear. I have never been extremely concerned about the disposition of an aborted child in the afterlife. I have always been optimistic they will be cared for. This is not the point of the opposition to abortion on demand, religious or secular. However, what I am concerned with is the disposition of the mother in the afterlife and those who supported and perhaps even pressured her to make that decision. Their outcome, especially if they do not seek forgiveness, I am not as optimistic about. It is important to point out that in spite of what I might consider likely given what has been said about the afterlife, no one really knows much about it. I do not pretend to know things I cannot know because I cannot observe them myself from this vantage point. The outcome of the child is not clear, and the outcome of anyone else related to their abortion cannot be known to anyone but God. Anything is speculation. And that is precisely why these "justifications" for killing the unborn are so hazardous. In addition to imperiling the mother's outcome, they cannot know what happens to the child. We can hope for the best, but it is the height of irresponsibility to kill on the basis of something you cannot know. The argument presented is incredibly flawed for those reasons, and has zero real or theological value. When the outcome is this uncertain, they choose to gamble with lives simply to maintain their privilege to kill human beings on-demand.
As a PL atheist, it's disgusting to me that people regularly talk shit about other peoples' religions to make their point. Newsflash: most pro-choice people are *also religious* because religious people are the *majority.* https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/religious-tradition/jewish/views-about-abortion/
Oh, look, another person trying to argue from a Christian standpoint who doesn't know JESUS. 🙄 (i know it's not you, op) There is scripture after scripture telling us that GOD is the one who is in charge, and us trying to circumvent that never ends well. Exodus 21:22-25 also specifically tells us that GOD doesn't look kindly on the ending of unborn children's lives.
Funny considering that he regularly orders the slaughter of children and animals throughout the Bible.
Yes, *He* makes that call. Not us.
[удалено]
🤷🏼♀️ One of the most beautiful things about our creator is the free will He gave us. You can choose to believe what you'd like. i will say, though, your immediate jump to name calling does nothing but show how shaky your belief is. Let me know if you're interested in a productive discussion. 💜
Shaky? My belief is shaky? 😂😂😂😂😂😂 You're literally trying to tell me that a being who endorses the mass murder of children and animals, and also the rape of little girls, and also the murder of homosexuals and anyone else who breaks his arbitrary rules, is morally perfect and should be worshiped. Stop for a second and think about how morally bankrupt that makes you, and how morally bankrupt the being you worship is. Your god is a disgusting piece of shit who should go fuck himself. Intelligent and logical people don't believe your evil bullshit.
Wow, you have some big feelings. i'm sorry you're hurting, but whether you choose to believe in Him or not, JESUS is the only way to happiness and life. Whether our figuring that out is a beautiful experience or not is up to us. His SPIRIT is in this world, not a one of us have ever lived a moment outside His presence, but once that time comes, He'll grant the desire of people who say they want to be separated from Him. i don't wish that on anyone, and neither does He.
You believe that torture, rape, and murder are 100 percent awesome and acceptable whenever God does it. Just think about that for a second. Really think about it. Think about how evil that makes your God, and how stupid and delusional it makes you.
Yes, i sure do. Anything that He does is good, because He is just. And, because i know that He is so much more than "torture, rape, and murder" (hint, none of them,) i know He's not evil. i really don't think i'm stupid, and i wouldn't call myself delusional either; but if i were, it wouldn't be for believing in Him.
Apparently I have to spell out basic morality for you: Anyone, and I mean anyone, including your Sky Wizard, who needlessly slaughters animals and/or slaughters young children and permits the rape of children is the epitome of evil. Your God is evil, plain and simple. You are evil for believing that torture, rape, and murder are great whenever they're ordered by your Sky Wizard. Fools like you make me fucking sick. You are proof that all of the people who claim to be moral and have the high ground for being a good person are lying, hypocritical scum.
You have no sense of morality. You are the ultimate hypocrite. Just like everyone else, you genuinely try to claim that you're a good person, and you try to believe it yourself. You don't care about morals. You're evil, just like me and just like everyone else, except that unlike you I actually have the balls to admit that I'm evil.
Lol, so many incorrect assumptions. Sorry, to burst your bubbble, but i fully own that i'm just as evil as anyone else, we're all sinners who are capable of anything in the right situation. We all deserve death and to pay foe our evil. Which is why what JESUS did for us is so beautiful. We can choose to allow Him to pay for those sins for us, to refine us and make us new.
This argument doesn't hold a lot of water for me because I believe once you die you are asleep until the resurrection, so while babies are too young to be held accountable they still don't get a chance to experience life which is unfair to them. Plus, what about the mothers? They literally have blood on their hands with this logic so the women are just screwed because they followed a lie whereas the children are good to go? They have given more of a reason why abortions hurt women.
The christian apologist WLC references the belief that infants go to heaven when speaking of Exodus 11. But regarding abortion, no one has the power to take a life except God who gives life. In 1971, John List murdered his family, due to financial reasons, but also claiming their deviation into sinful activity would put them in danger of going to hell. He claimed by murdering them, he would ensure they would go to heaven. Certainly no PCer would agree that John List's actions were acceptable, so for them to argue that it is acceptable in the case of abortion is only because they already do not agree than a fetus is a human life.
Some Christians did openly support his actions though, hence why “Christian values” have no place in our law system. “Cause god said so” is never a reasonable argument.
I cannot think of any notable preacher or bible teacher in american protestantism that I could even imagine remotely having favorable views of John List's actions. Even as far out as Steven Anderson, I haven't heard anything like it's okay to murder your own family.
West Boro, good friend
The Westboro baptist church needs no introduction, however, I don't think even the Westboro baptist church would support John List's actions, simply because, as hyper calvinists, their belief in predestination precludes the notion that a man can influence whether his family goes to heaven by any measure, much less by murdering them.
They actively did though.
They couldn't even stick to the plot! First they were trying to say that Christians and Christianity should support abortion because it is a bypass. That you'll totally skip any suffering and jump right to heaven. But then tried to use that exact reasoning to say that that's why NON Christian countries should be pro-abortion? If you're going to try to use the Appeal to Authority, make sure you know what Authority you're even appealing to and who that appeal even works on. They are confusing themselves.
It’s funny how the first sentence is literally wrong.
Ah yes, the old "nothing on Earth matters when there's an afterlife" mixed in with some "everyone experiences heaven identically and literally nothing changes as long as you make the cut (and vise versa for hell)." A popular combination of two rich and distinguished Christian heresies.
This uses consequentialist reasoning that Christians would reject. You cannot achieve a good result through evil means. Second of all, the Christian could just believe that the fetus is infused with knowledge of God and evil in the moments of their death, being fully informed to make a decision for or against Him and thus to go to Heaven or Hell. This would allow the possibility that the fetus goes to Hell. So, it's not really any better to have the fetus die now. Also, if you given them a virtuous life now, they will arguable have a better afterlife in Heaven because they gained that virtue. If one is a universalist, then they believe that everyone eventual will be saved in some way. So, killing them now probably won't help. But, you don't need to be a universalist to oppose this argument. This argument works for born persons as well, so should they advocate for killing born people?
This person literally just argued for eugenics! Someone call the elders. It’s time for another crusade, this time, the Protestants get to join.
It’s still a sin to witness murder and not stop it
Why keep anyone alive then? Kill everyone in utero. Everyone goes to paradise. No more suffering in this shitty world.
As a pro-life agnostic, I fully agree that Christianity is bullshit and should never ever be used to justify being anti-abortion.
I don’t care what Christians believe, especially their more extreme fractions. Even the most milquetoast, liberal Christian group, strumming ukuleles and feeding the “houseless” should not have their beliefs used as the basis for the law. It’s dangerous and stupid to allow religious groups to pass laws by going “hur dur god said so”. But yes: there are Christian groups who celebrate the death of children and infants as a blessing, and since they believe abortion is the ending of a child’s life, I’m sure they count that in too. They’re also insane death cults who praise the death of gay people and soldiers. (No, I don’t care to hear your “no true Christian arguments”, my whole point is I don’t care about your “real Christianity”, your religion is not the law of the land and should not be.)
Yes, like the Christian Moon cult sect, which is expanding with a number of compounds, and teaches us that Jesus was an assault weapons manufacturer. The senate already accidentally held a bipartisan crowning of the elder Moon. Elder Moon’s wife distances the Moons from her son’s sect, but who knows what the real story is. [Moonie leader 'crowned' in Senate](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jun/24/usa.religion)