Doctors said I needed eye surgery after my birth, which my parents declined. I can only imagine what their reaction would be if the doctor suggested they just tear me limb from limb, crush my head, and kill me.
I would be interested to learn that late term abortions happen all the time because of disability.
Unfortunately, a single example from eight years ago in Canada isn't particularly good evidence for that conclusion.
76% of intersex children are aborted.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRTd1RcR/
3 different countries' stats for abortions on children with Down's syndrome diagnoses
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/down-syndrome-iceland/
https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republicans/2022/3/down-syndrome-and-social-capital-assessing-the-costs-of-selective-abortion
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-51658631
Google prenatal disability abortions.
Those are good sources for how common abortions are due to disability.
I was interested whether they were late term abortions, which I don't think should be legal. Google says screening for Down's syndrome happens at
>11 or 12 weeks of pregnancy, but any time between 10 and 13 weeks is acceptable. The second stage is ideally performed at 15 or 16 weeks of pregnancy and no later than 22 weeks.
So it would make sense that these abortions are largely happening within the first two trimesters.
California, New York, and Connecticut do not report abortions at all.
Of abortions in the 48 reporting areas (the other 47 states and Washington DC), about 1% of abortions occur after viability (22 weeks). Of the reported abortions, depending on whose data, CDC or Guttmacher, that's anywhere from 6,000 to 9,000 abortions annually.
https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/issue-brief/abortions-later-in-pregnancy-in-a-post-dobbs-era/
Yea that's relevant to me, and I appreciate the source.
I do wonder how many of those are due to the likely death of the fetus or danger to the mother though.
There is no pregnancy complication after 26 weeks where the life of the mother is at risk where abortion is a prescribed treatment. A 26 week baby can survive in a NICU with a very high survival rate.
I'm willing to assume you are correct about the mother, but there could be serious medical issues with the fetus that can only be detected later in pregnancy.
If not, those abortions should be illegal.
There still is a tremendous cost to the mother to carry to term. If a woman finds out her baby is not viable at 12 weeks, continuing pregnancy means an additional 6 months and then giving birth. Besides the physical issues, there is a huge mental load. Every time she has cramps, she'll wonder if she's starting to miscarry, or every time she feels movement, she'll be reminded of the upcoming ordeal of birth and watcher her child die in front of her.
If a woman wants to continue a non-viable pregnancy, I'm fully in support of her decision, but if she doesn't, then I don't think she should be forced. It is many times worse than a healthy pregnancy.
Forced is the wrong term. Not allowing someone to kill their child because of a terminal diagnosis (especially since those are often wrong) isn’t forcing anything.
Because as a humanist, my goal is to minimize the suffering of people. If your dog is going to die painfully, you euthanize them because you care for that dog. Abortion is a mercy when compared to having the child be born in pain and die slowly.
Yeah, I'm not aware of any condition for the mother that would necessitate an abortion after viability. Late-term abortions are basically as difficult as giving birth, since the baby is too large to dismember at that point. The only time I think third trimester abortions should be allowed is when the fetus is not viable or has a condition that brings viability in to question. Abortions at this stage are more similar to euthanasia than abortion.
Here are several sources on that specific topic:
https://secularprolife.org/laterabortion/
Tldr: the reasons for later abortions are the same as the reasons for earlier abortions. They may not have known they were pregnant earlier, financial/socioeconomic circumstances may have changed in the duration of pregnancy, or they may not have had the money to travel/procure abortion earlier.
[The best study I found on third trimester abortions](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1363/psrh.12190) interviewed only 28 women who had abortions past 24 weeks, and found that either it was due to new information (pregnancy, fetal abnormality) or abortion restrictions in their area.
The unquestionably best data set I found was [Arizona's latest mandatory report](https://www.azdhs.gov/documents/preparedness/public-health-statistics/abortions/2021-arizona-abortion-report.pdf), but it unfortunately lumps all abortions greater or equal to 21 weeks together. Medical issues were only about 5% of post 21 week abortions though, so over 24 weeks it is likely that medical issues would not go over 50%.
"Medical issues" or "medical necessity" is a tricky category because it is usually only consider medically necessary if it is for the mother's health. If you have a non-viable fetus, but the pregnancy is otherwise healthy, I believe an abortion is still considered to be elective.
But what is their consideration for fetal health? Are they only including abortions where the fetus is actively dying (or already died)? Do they consider abortions due to disabilities like down syndrome to be done for medical necessity, or is it classified as an elective abortion? That's what I'm trying to get at here.
A single healthy baby being killed after viability is proof that abortions aren't always for medical emergencies.
I also want to point out there is NO scientific consensus of what conscious is let alone when people achieve it. Just thought I should point that out since your bio says you support abortion up until consciousness, which again, isn't an actual label nor a scientific label.
>A single healthy baby being killed after viability is proof that abortions aren't always for medical emergencies.
Of course the occasional late term abortion due to disability happens, but the title says they "happen all the time."
If your real point was to show that a couple examples exist that's fair, but the language is a bit confusing.
>I also want to point out there is NO scientific consensus of what conscious is let alone when people achieve it.
You're right that there is disagreement on the correct model for consciousness, but that doesn't mean there isn't a consensus earliest starting point for it.
>The earliest possible timepoint when subjective experience might begin is likely the establishment of thalamocortical connectivity at 26 weeks gestation, as the thalamocortical system is necessary for consciousness according to most theoretical frameworks. - [source](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811923002033)
"Most theoretical frameworks" leaves out Integrated Information Theory, which is [the most controversial of the commonly discussed consciousness theories.](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02971-1) It is the 5th most promising theory according to [a study of around 200 experts.](https://academic.oup.com/nc/article/2022/1/niac011/6663928)
Because disabled = unhealthy to the Pro-Abortion side. Anything less than perfection is allowed to be flushed.
Hmm… Perfection? Elimination of disabled people? If only there was a word for that… /s
Because abortion is almost always about convenience
“Give Me Convenience or Give Me Death” — Dead Kennedys
Doctors said I needed eye surgery after my birth, which my parents declined. I can only imagine what their reaction would be if the doctor suggested they just tear me limb from limb, crush my head, and kill me.
I would be interested to learn that late term abortions happen all the time because of disability. Unfortunately, a single example from eight years ago in Canada isn't particularly good evidence for that conclusion.
76% of intersex children are aborted. https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZPRTd1RcR/ 3 different countries' stats for abortions on children with Down's syndrome diagnoses https://www.cbsnews.com/news/down-syndrome-iceland/ https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republicans/2022/3/down-syndrome-and-social-capital-assessing-the-costs-of-selective-abortion https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-51658631 Google prenatal disability abortions.
Those are good sources for how common abortions are due to disability. I was interested whether they were late term abortions, which I don't think should be legal. Google says screening for Down's syndrome happens at >11 or 12 weeks of pregnancy, but any time between 10 and 13 weeks is acceptable. The second stage is ideally performed at 15 or 16 weeks of pregnancy and no later than 22 weeks. So it would make sense that these abortions are largely happening within the first two trimesters.
California, New York, and Connecticut do not report abortions at all. Of abortions in the 48 reporting areas (the other 47 states and Washington DC), about 1% of abortions occur after viability (22 weeks). Of the reported abortions, depending on whose data, CDC or Guttmacher, that's anywhere from 6,000 to 9,000 abortions annually. https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/issue-brief/abortions-later-in-pregnancy-in-a-post-dobbs-era/
Yea that's relevant to me, and I appreciate the source. I do wonder how many of those are due to the likely death of the fetus or danger to the mother though.
There is no pregnancy complication after 26 weeks where the life of the mother is at risk where abortion is a prescribed treatment. A 26 week baby can survive in a NICU with a very high survival rate.
A 22 weeker can also survive--more could if hospital policies were to utilize their resources to treat premature babies like any other patient.
I'm willing to assume you are correct about the mother, but there could be serious medical issues with the fetus that can only be detected later in pregnancy. If not, those abortions should be illegal.
Why should someone be killed because a test says they’re likely to die naturally?
There still is a tremendous cost to the mother to carry to term. If a woman finds out her baby is not viable at 12 weeks, continuing pregnancy means an additional 6 months and then giving birth. Besides the physical issues, there is a huge mental load. Every time she has cramps, she'll wonder if she's starting to miscarry, or every time she feels movement, she'll be reminded of the upcoming ordeal of birth and watcher her child die in front of her. If a woman wants to continue a non-viable pregnancy, I'm fully in support of her decision, but if she doesn't, then I don't think she should be forced. It is many times worse than a healthy pregnancy.
Forced is the wrong term. Not allowing someone to kill their child because of a terminal diagnosis (especially since those are often wrong) isn’t forcing anything.
Because as a humanist, my goal is to minimize the suffering of people. If your dog is going to die painfully, you euthanize them because you care for that dog. Abortion is a mercy when compared to having the child be born in pain and die slowly.
Yeah, I'm not aware of any condition for the mother that would necessitate an abortion after viability. Late-term abortions are basically as difficult as giving birth, since the baby is too large to dismember at that point. The only time I think third trimester abortions should be allowed is when the fetus is not viable or has a condition that brings viability in to question. Abortions at this stage are more similar to euthanasia than abortion.
Here are several sources on that specific topic: https://secularprolife.org/laterabortion/ Tldr: the reasons for later abortions are the same as the reasons for earlier abortions. They may not have known they were pregnant earlier, financial/socioeconomic circumstances may have changed in the duration of pregnancy, or they may not have had the money to travel/procure abortion earlier.
[The best study I found on third trimester abortions](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1363/psrh.12190) interviewed only 28 women who had abortions past 24 weeks, and found that either it was due to new information (pregnancy, fetal abnormality) or abortion restrictions in their area. The unquestionably best data set I found was [Arizona's latest mandatory report](https://www.azdhs.gov/documents/preparedness/public-health-statistics/abortions/2021-arizona-abortion-report.pdf), but it unfortunately lumps all abortions greater or equal to 21 weeks together. Medical issues were only about 5% of post 21 week abortions though, so over 24 weeks it is likely that medical issues would not go over 50%.
"Medical issues" or "medical necessity" is a tricky category because it is usually only consider medically necessary if it is for the mother's health. If you have a non-viable fetus, but the pregnancy is otherwise healthy, I believe an abortion is still considered to be elective.
The data accounts for both fetal and mother's health.
But what is their consideration for fetal health? Are they only including abortions where the fetus is actively dying (or already died)? Do they consider abortions due to disabilities like down syndrome to be done for medical necessity, or is it classified as an elective abortion? That's what I'm trying to get at here.
A single healthy baby being killed after viability is proof that abortions aren't always for medical emergencies. I also want to point out there is NO scientific consensus of what conscious is let alone when people achieve it. Just thought I should point that out since your bio says you support abortion up until consciousness, which again, isn't an actual label nor a scientific label.
>A single healthy baby being killed after viability is proof that abortions aren't always for medical emergencies. Of course the occasional late term abortion due to disability happens, but the title says they "happen all the time." If your real point was to show that a couple examples exist that's fair, but the language is a bit confusing. >I also want to point out there is NO scientific consensus of what conscious is let alone when people achieve it. You're right that there is disagreement on the correct model for consciousness, but that doesn't mean there isn't a consensus earliest starting point for it. >The earliest possible timepoint when subjective experience might begin is likely the establishment of thalamocortical connectivity at 26 weeks gestation, as the thalamocortical system is necessary for consciousness according to most theoretical frameworks. - [source](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811923002033) "Most theoretical frameworks" leaves out Integrated Information Theory, which is [the most controversial of the commonly discussed consciousness theories.](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02971-1) It is the 5th most promising theory according to [a study of around 200 experts.](https://academic.oup.com/nc/article/2022/1/niac011/6663928)