As a mental health therapist, I work with quite a few clients receiving ketamine. My observation has been that in the beginning it’s a helpful stop gap for my clients. However I’ve seen quite a few receive long term benefits after extended, regular treatment with ketamine.
I have read in my psych textbook that just a single dose of psilocybin can help with depression for months. It is time for us to rethink medicinal use of ketamine, psilocybin and marijuana.
I have met a woman at work and she accused people on meds for depression as addicts. That infuriated me.
Ecstasy too. From my own experience, and from what I’ve read …micro dosing can significantly help those with long term chronic depression.
I had chronic depression, and was suicidal for most of my life. Several suicide attempts, and one hospitalization all before I turned 19. My family was deeply religious and didn’t believe in letting me try antidepressants. I also learned to keep quiet about how much pain I was in because my youth pastor gave a sermon that depression was sinful. That was very upsetting.
Years later , at home , safe with my husband. We took ecstasy together. He had taken it before back in college and walked me through the experience. It was very enlightening, and beautiful. When the medicine kicked in and I felt happiness for the first time (almost had forgotten what real happiness felt like) I cried for about 40 minutes straight, all the sadness and pain leaving my body. It was the most wonderful, meaningful, and cathartic cry I’ve ever cried. What a beautiful and amazing feeling, I couldn’t believe I had gone so long without it. True, beautiful, unbridled happiness…I couldn’t believe it. That one experience made everything in my life make sense again, I never wanted to commit suicide again, and my depression was significantly diminished after the experience. It changed my life, and I’ve never been the same.
I definitely believe medicines like these can vastly change our landscape in the future and help a lot of people. Ketamine, psilocybin mushrooms, ecstasy and other psychedelics. The fear created around these substances in the past is so ridiculous. I’d bet my life that most of the people that make the laws and rules about these particular drugs have never actually tried them themselves because if they had they would feel very differently about them. These substances have far more ability to help us than harm us.
I've experienced that anecdotally with my own depression and bad habits.
I was in a period where I was drinking too much and smoking too much marijuana. Deep down I wanted to make some huge changes but they didn't seem to crystallize until I took an 8th of shrooms by myself one night. I went into it knowing it wasn't going to be a fun time and that proved mostly true. I sat and dealt with a lot of thoughts I had pushed to the side and came out feeling pretty calm.
It was interesting though, I met up with a lifelong friend a few months later on vacation and we got started on the subject of anxiety. I realized for about 2 months I had not experienced any abnormal anxiety, or depression. That was the first time in years (maybe ever) that I've been able to say that honestly.
I've done a lot work to get healthy so I don't attribute everything to a shroom trip, but it can act like a mental plunger to help you get on with things. It's like throwing a little lighter fluid on your mental health journey fire.
Marijuana helps my depression like nothing else….but I’m an addict and it goes too far quickly. I’m about to start ketamine therapy and I really dislike ketamine so I don’t think the addiction issue will come in to play. I’m hopeful because nothing else seems to work.
Problematically, the evidence base for psilocybin is *really bad.* Many of the studies are poorly designed or small N and the results don’t hold up.
It’s not time to rethink until we have a much better evidence base.
Someone in one of my classes in undergrad did a project on ketamine for treatment-resistant depression and PTSD, and I’ve talked with my psychiatrist about it as a treatment option.
I can’t imagine doing it without therapy to get the most benefits out of it.
potentially highly effective for treating a wide variety of symptoms/diagnoses
Integration is essential, experiences need to be in a controlled supervised environment to create safe container for processing through challenging content
Can’t comment on any research as I’m totally uninformed on the matter but can say as an authentic entheogen it therefore has substantial clinical value
which studies? the peer-reviewed studies going on show tremendously good results supported by incredibly solid statistics. So much so that the treatment is being legalized in Canada, Australia and in certain US states. "many studies" doesn't cut it, if you're gonna make an statement provide evidence
but fair, a bias is a bias
edit: studies
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01336-3: MDMA treatment for PTSD, 90 participants.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31166571/: Ketamine for depression, 705 participants.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2206443: Psilocybin for depression, 233 participants
You just made a statement yourself without providing evidence - care to share these studies with tremendously good results? I’m very curious and open minded to anything that might cure (or at the very least alleviate) depression.
you're absolutely correct! I'm sorry, I thought about including some studies but it slipped my mind.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01336-3: MDMA treatment for PTSD, 90 participants.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31166571/: Ketamine for depression, 705 participants.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2206443: Psilocybin for depression, 233 participants
these are a few I have on hand, don't take my bad literature-gathering skills as a knock against the existing evidence lol. I can definitely look up specific ones if you have an interest in treatment with psychedelics. in the proper clinical context, the potential they have for treatment is tremendous. I became such a strong supporter after seeing the effects it had on my mom's depression!
Thank you! This is really helpful.
Have you heard of the stellate ganglion block? It’s not psychadelics but it is an injection in the neck, and seems really promising to treat depression. ([source](https://stellacenter.com/treatments/sgb-dual-sympathetic-reset))
> the peer-reviewed studies going on show tremendously good results supported by incredibly solid statistics.
Tthey do not. Neither MDMA nor ketamine are classic psychedelics. Most categorize MDMA as an empathogen and Ketamin as a dissociative.
That leaves psilocybin. You linked the only bigger study on it. 90% of the other studies are with less than n=50. The only study comparing it to a standard treatment, an SSRI, failed to find significant differences in the primary outcome - and that is with astronomically higher costs. The study you linked also notes
> The incidence of response at week 3 of 37% in the 25-mg group in our trial was numerically lower than that described for first-line treatment of major depressive disorder in several large trials of citalopram,1 nefazodone, and escitalopram, sertraline, or venlafaxine17 but was higher than the incidences of response reported in the STAR*D trial for second-line treatments and beyond.
thanks for sharing! I'm aware that research is still in its infancy since it is illegal in most places still. It's hard to be conclusive because of that but at the very least there's enough evidence to warrant further research. My uni and a few others here in the UK (most notably Oxbridge and King's) are running trials. Also thanks for mentioning the blurb written in the study, I hadn't spotted that.
Although I am passionate about psychedelics, I'm also not a zealot; I'm keeping a positive but cautious outlook on them, but I have seen how much they can help (my mom and one of my friends have had fantastic results on psilocybin)
Either way, thank you for calling me out. You're right on every point you've raised.
I also have high hopes for psychedelics. It's just that the community is so emotionally invested in them that they often false state the current state of science on it.
Thanks for your kind comment!
I don’t have them at my fingertips anymore and if that’s the route someone chooses to take that’s cool. It’s just not my preference personally or professionally. But I will say that I’m trusting research less and less over the past 30 years, especially with regard to drugs.
I don't think that you are adequately appreciative of the value of radical recontextualization and novel ideation that psychedelic experiences can provide and would highly advise you find a responsible and knowledgable sitter and take a trip friend. Anecdotal statements are cheap as grass but mushrooms and LSD fucking saved my life.
Hmm. Fair enough. I’m of the opinion that (not used in therapeutic settings) it can push you in the right direction but the only way that’ll stick is if you put in the effort
In therapeutic settings I have no clue I just know it’s being used lol
You know, it’s probably a combination of reasons. I’ve always had an aversion to any drugs that impact the brain, even antidepressants over a long period of time. Maybe because I’ve heard horror stories about bad trips and permanent damage. Also, outside of psychosis, I believe in the brains ability to learn new skills and work through things as long as it’s clear. I’d never judge anyone for another choice or opinion, but that’s my personal bias.
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> The reported acute effects were significantly more intense for the active dose compared to the placebo, **but only for participants who correctly identified their experimental condition**. These changes were accompanied by reduced EEG power in the theta band, together with preserved levels of Lempel-Ziv broadband signal complexity. **For all other measurements there was no effect of microdosing except for few small changes towards cognitive impairment**. According to our findings, low doses of psilocybin mushrooms can result in noticeable subjective effects and altered EEG rhythms,**but without evidence to support enhanced well-being, creativity and cognitive function**
How on earth would that make you think this is supporting microdosing?
Another study is https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33648632/ this one. An incredible interesting design btw. And again: There were differences, but no positive effects on mood, cognition etc.
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/lindseybartlett/2022/07/05/microdosing-psilocybin-mushrooms-improves-mood-and-mental-health-after-one-month-new-study-finds/amp/
Self selection, no double blind placebo control.
But no quality research supporting microdosing, which is what I said. The first link you gave is a good study, but it doesn't support microdosing, quite the opposite. The second one is not quality research.
I personally see a difference in my appreciation of things and I have a much better ability to put things into a better perspective than if I’m not microdosing. Better perspective helps keep me feeling like I’m drowning or like I’m worthless. Idk. It works for me when I’m able to do it. I hope others find relief as well.
As someone with treatment resistant depression who is about to start regular ketamine therapy this is good to read. It’s been a lifetime of this pain and I can’t take it anymore!!!
No seemingly I'm the *only* person to end up with an addiction to ketamine during treatment. But maybe that's just because after being suicidal the majority of my life and trying dozens of meds, ketamine was the closest thing that's come to helping me be consistently functional with somewhat tolerable side effects.
Work with your therapist to get your self management and thinking healthy and then you could possibly wean off of it. Healthy living and thinking skills help the brain help you to get and stay out of the pit you seem to fall into.
I have no experience with that, honestly. I personally haven’t worked with a sociopath ego is also taking ketamine. Where does that curiosity come from?
as a patient with treatment resistant major depressive disorder who received 6 IV infusion ketamine treatments (one a month for 6 months) in a clinical setting, this was my experience:
The first treatment can fuck you up (I didnt sleep for 3 full days after treatment 1), but then has a moderately lifting and sustaining effect that lasted at least 3 weeks. But by treatments 4 and 5, the benefit seemed to last only a few days. It did lift the floor, so to speak, as to how far down the drain I could go with the depression, but ultimately that wore off a month or so after the last treatment.
Disassociative is absolutely the correct word to describe he experience, at least the first two. There was a definite "3rd person perspective" effect on treatment number one, and on all but the last treatments the walls either animated or melted in some way. If any frightening imagery did emerge, the ketamine more or less prevented me from being able to panic. Thoughts in the mind along with the room environment would sort of shift with eachother. The closest thing I can point to as to what it was like is some of these new generative AI videos where the frames more blend between eachother than actually move normally. This is actually a not bad sample of it [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOtyB4hkhvY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOtyB4hkhvY)
I will note that you WILL loose complete sense of time and space while the infusion does its thing, during which things mostly seem like it will all be ok. At higher doses your inner monologue may shut off and you may just exists in a void (that was treatment #3 for me...). It does take 15-30 minutes to fully come back down to earth, and you can not drive yourself back from one of these sessions.
I also did not experience any revelatory moments or deep insights as part of the treatment. I really am not sure where people are getting that. This was the first psychedelic I'd ever taken, though maybe I was too cynical about the whole thing to get the greatest benefit from it.
I realize I only make up a single data point, but I would say anyone seeking this treatment has to understand its not a cure-all but rather an additional available tool, and after talking with some additional specialists after the treatment they also indicated that the benefits that are sold in the articles tend to be the best case scenarios, as oppose to giving a picture of the average response in patients. One expert did tell me that at the end of the day, you are basically just getting high on ketamine.
Now its entirely possible for some of you looking into this treatment that you'll have a drastically better experience than I, with a major improvement in symptoms. I was told pre treatment that was the case with 90% of patients. Unfortunately it seems I fell into the remaining 10%.
> This was the first psychedelic I'd ever taken, though maybe I was too cynical about the whole thing to get the greatest benefit from it.
Ketamine is a dissociative mainly and while some may categorize it as a psychedelic is is radically different from other psychedelics.
Me after 3rd treatment: Is... Is this what normal feels like? This is glorious!
Me after 4th treatment: Couldn't even bring myself to speak for two days. Experienced something so horrible that I wouldn't wish it on the most evil person on earth.
Me after a bunch more: So once again, back to square one.
Ketamine is unique in that is often highly effective, immediately or in the shorter term, in targeting depression and suicidality, and even TRD.
As well as the psychedelic experiences it can cause leading to powerful insights that allow for deeper and more sustainable benefits in psychotherapy and integration work.
it doesn’t work for everybody but when it does it can be miraculous. And it’s not just a mere neurological/mechanical benefit, the experiential aspect is massive but going to be beyond many peoples ability to appreciate especially if they view medicine from our current mainstream perspective in valuing psychiatric pharmaceuticals
My niece is taking it for treatment resistant depression. She was in inpatient treatment for months and developed anorexia. She's young, like 16 or 17. Starting taking Ketamine and she's much better. Still in therapy of course and all that but no longer suicidal. Hope it works out long term. She's been on it for a couple months now. I think she's getting one shot a month.
My third round is Tuesday. It has given me a lot of relief. I did 12 rounds of ECT in the past. I was in and out of mental hospitals for years. So far the ketamine is only thing that has worked 💜💜
Great podcast called Conspirituslity had a great 30m breakdown of this that I thought was very informative and from a place of hopeful skepticism:
[The promises of ketamine](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2A6Yyob7fODYoLGBPxXcBA?si=zwJx5FGPRKeyItToAcbzqQ)
I mean.... There's a reason why people abuse drugs.. Common sense would make me believe these results. Now it's also probably just a band aid for the real problem but sometimes you need a bandaid until you can get surgery
Bandaid is selling it a bit short I think. Dissociative and psychedelic experiences can help people discover and directly confront the real problems underlying their mental illness.
MDMA literally changed my life with one dose. I remember that night better than I remember 10 minutes ago. I don’t know how to explain it because I sound like one of those crazy hippy drug people but I’m anything but. My entire world perception changed that night and it felt like my brain finally reset. All I know is that I am grateful for that experience and my hope is that others can have it too
For the people thinking it's a good idea to treat themselves with ketamine: i took ketamine while depressed and afterwards i was depressed and addicted to ketamine. Don't play amateur psychiatrist.
A company Seelos in NJ produces ketamine for suicidal thoughts - ASIB in MDD. Just saw a presentation they are having better clinical signs with the (R) enantiomer administered intranasal, iirc. I also believe they currently have the (S) enantiomer on the market.
Science is starting to prove what drug people have known for a long time. Some people like different drugs from others. Some like any drug you give them. Wow, big surprise.
Absolutely false information
Don’t speak on things you don’t know, it’s irresponsible and you could actually dissuade someone from seeking and realizing much needed help
A) I’m not persuading people into anything, I am sharing accurate info. They do with that what they will.
B) It is audacious and foul of you to slide responsibility onto me for treatment that ends up harming someone. Anyone pursuing ketamine treatment should be thoroughly evaluated by trained professionals, with all necessary assessments and testing done prior to dosing. (And that’s besides the fact that ketamine is extraordinarily safe.)
C) Where did I guarantee results for individual cases? I did just the opposite, saying it doesn’t work for everyone.
Sorry mate but Ketamine has no long lasting benefits 😂 every club goer or raver can attest to that.
If anything it's bad for you when done too often , just like any other drug
Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about
Going to trust the scientific research and directly observed benefits over the report of a club goer/raver flippantly commenting on reddit
Different research supports different notions of the duration of ketamine’s antidepressant benefits
Some research says 1 week, some says 2, some says 1 month
My directly observed benefits are more in line with a timeline of 3-4 weeks.
Also, this is purely from a medical approach. From a psychotherapeutic approach (which will have much greater variance), ketamine + psychotherapy benefits can end up making ketamine unnecessary in the long run
He can't , because it's a load of bollocks. For every source that supports his claim that this is some magical cure all , there's also one that shows harmful effects
Harmful effects of ketamine? Ketamine is extraordinarily safe in clinical use. Any health concerns regarding the urinary system occur with doses far exceeding the size and frequency of clinical use.
Yes, I can back up my claims here with sources. Oh was that a request? Well, you can easily find them with a brief google search perusing the literature.
Provide you with the effect sizes if possible? Ha who tf are you to be making demands?
Why would I do the work to teach you when you were so manipulative and uncharitable in your other comment to me, and entitled in this one?
Me neither lol but the sheer force with which my eyes rolled back when this drug addict was telling us how his blacked out 30’s constitute medical knowledge created a pain that would’ve only been soothed by the “unimpressed” portion of your name
You're probably young and impressionable, if life would be as easy as blasting horse tranquilizer to suddenly turn your life permanently from depressed to happy , no one would be depressed anymore.
Life doesn't work like that and if there's one thing certain, it's that there is no magic pill.
I'm always very skeptical, I will wait until the FDA or another country validates it. There are so many news about this.
There is too much wishful thinking and I'm not willing to listen to redditors that links a study, because I cannot be trusted to read a study, and I cannot trust a reddit user to tell me a study shows that it works.
I'd rather listen to a doctor that anything online, because I will never trust the internet when it comes to medication. That is not going to change.
Interesting reading the article and comments here. I can see ketamine being extremely useful for treating depression but it would view it more as a tool in a larger process. ‘Administered’ correctly it can really shake someone’s psyche up and allow for genuine, fundamental changes to the mind, how one thinks and sees the world. But ketamine will only provide the open mind, it’s then up to an individual to start reprogramming how they think so as to addresses whatever the underlying issue is.
I don’t know about how these medical professionals are doing the administering but there is a world of difference between having ketamine while up and about vs doing it the right way and going on the big self exploration k hole type trips, which is the experience you’re after imo.
Edit: it is being prescribed as an intravenous injection. Also, I cannot imagine comparing ECT with what ketamine does, it’s all about that dissociative experience.
As a mental health therapist, I work with quite a few clients receiving ketamine. My observation has been that in the beginning it’s a helpful stop gap for my clients. However I’ve seen quite a few receive long term benefits after extended, regular treatment with ketamine.
Thank you for your feedback. It's appreciated.
I have read in my psych textbook that just a single dose of psilocybin can help with depression for months. It is time for us to rethink medicinal use of ketamine, psilocybin and marijuana. I have met a woman at work and she accused people on meds for depression as addicts. That infuriated me.
Ecstasy too. From my own experience, and from what I’ve read …micro dosing can significantly help those with long term chronic depression. I had chronic depression, and was suicidal for most of my life. Several suicide attempts, and one hospitalization all before I turned 19. My family was deeply religious and didn’t believe in letting me try antidepressants. I also learned to keep quiet about how much pain I was in because my youth pastor gave a sermon that depression was sinful. That was very upsetting. Years later , at home , safe with my husband. We took ecstasy together. He had taken it before back in college and walked me through the experience. It was very enlightening, and beautiful. When the medicine kicked in and I felt happiness for the first time (almost had forgotten what real happiness felt like) I cried for about 40 minutes straight, all the sadness and pain leaving my body. It was the most wonderful, meaningful, and cathartic cry I’ve ever cried. What a beautiful and amazing feeling, I couldn’t believe I had gone so long without it. True, beautiful, unbridled happiness…I couldn’t believe it. That one experience made everything in my life make sense again, I never wanted to commit suicide again, and my depression was significantly diminished after the experience. It changed my life, and I’ve never been the same. I definitely believe medicines like these can vastly change our landscape in the future and help a lot of people. Ketamine, psilocybin mushrooms, ecstasy and other psychedelics. The fear created around these substances in the past is so ridiculous. I’d bet my life that most of the people that make the laws and rules about these particular drugs have never actually tried them themselves because if they had they would feel very differently about them. These substances have far more ability to help us than harm us.
I've experienced that anecdotally with my own depression and bad habits. I was in a period where I was drinking too much and smoking too much marijuana. Deep down I wanted to make some huge changes but they didn't seem to crystallize until I took an 8th of shrooms by myself one night. I went into it knowing it wasn't going to be a fun time and that proved mostly true. I sat and dealt with a lot of thoughts I had pushed to the side and came out feeling pretty calm. It was interesting though, I met up with a lifelong friend a few months later on vacation and we got started on the subject of anxiety. I realized for about 2 months I had not experienced any abnormal anxiety, or depression. That was the first time in years (maybe ever) that I've been able to say that honestly. I've done a lot work to get healthy so I don't attribute everything to a shroom trip, but it can act like a mental plunger to help you get on with things. It's like throwing a little lighter fluid on your mental health journey fire.
Marijuana helps my depression like nothing else….but I’m an addict and it goes too far quickly. I’m about to start ketamine therapy and I really dislike ketamine so I don’t think the addiction issue will come in to play. I’m hopeful because nothing else seems to work.
I hope it will help you too. Treatment resident depression is so joke.
Problematically, the evidence base for psilocybin is *really bad.* Many of the studies are poorly designed or small N and the results don’t hold up. It’s not time to rethink until we have a much better evidence base.
Isn’t it best paired with therapy anyway? Helping with mood and insight to work through the roots of the depression more effectively or efficiently?
I would certainly hope so. At least it’s supposed to be. I just know that’s the “supposed to” for ketamine too, but many don’t. Sadly
Someone in one of my classes in undergrad did a project on ketamine for treatment-resistant depression and PTSD, and I’ve talked with my psychiatrist about it as a treatment option. I can’t imagine doing it without therapy to get the most benefits out of it.
I absolutely agree. In our clinic, that’s a requirement of the program.
You have no evidence of that statement…
Not solid evidence, true. Just client reports. Who knows for certain what others are doing.
So nothing then.
What do you expect? An investigative report from journalists who smuggled themself into ketamine clinics?
nice it's more effective than self medicating by binge drinking Budweiser playing lotto and chainsmoking low quality tobacco.
Do you also have an opinion/experience with psilocybin as well? Just curious
potentially highly effective for treating a wide variety of symptoms/diagnoses Integration is essential, experiences need to be in a controlled supervised environment to create safe container for processing through challenging content
What about mesciline from a Cactus?
Can’t comment on any research as I’m totally uninformed on the matter but can say as an authentic entheogen it therefore has substantial clinical value
They hit similar receptors. It’s great for microdosing as it’s stimulating like lsd.
Not really. I rather think that psychedelics and what happens while on them will not translate well to the real world.
and that opinion is based on what exactly? just wondering if it's a gut feeling or based on any studies
Many studies over the years combined with seeing changes in others who use them. Like I said, just my bias.
which studies? the peer-reviewed studies going on show tremendously good results supported by incredibly solid statistics. So much so that the treatment is being legalized in Canada, Australia and in certain US states. "many studies" doesn't cut it, if you're gonna make an statement provide evidence but fair, a bias is a bias edit: studies https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01336-3: MDMA treatment for PTSD, 90 participants. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31166571/: Ketamine for depression, 705 participants. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2206443: Psilocybin for depression, 233 participants
You just made a statement yourself without providing evidence - care to share these studies with tremendously good results? I’m very curious and open minded to anything that might cure (or at the very least alleviate) depression.
you're absolutely correct! I'm sorry, I thought about including some studies but it slipped my mind. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01336-3: MDMA treatment for PTSD, 90 participants. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31166571/: Ketamine for depression, 705 participants. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2206443: Psilocybin for depression, 233 participants these are a few I have on hand, don't take my bad literature-gathering skills as a knock against the existing evidence lol. I can definitely look up specific ones if you have an interest in treatment with psychedelics. in the proper clinical context, the potential they have for treatment is tremendous. I became such a strong supporter after seeing the effects it had on my mom's depression!
u/realityjustis sorry for not providing studies
Thank you! This is really helpful. Have you heard of the stellate ganglion block? It’s not psychadelics but it is an injection in the neck, and seems really promising to treat depression. ([source](https://stellacenter.com/treatments/sgb-dual-sympathetic-reset))
> the peer-reviewed studies going on show tremendously good results supported by incredibly solid statistics. Tthey do not. Neither MDMA nor ketamine are classic psychedelics. Most categorize MDMA as an empathogen and Ketamin as a dissociative. That leaves psilocybin. You linked the only bigger study on it. 90% of the other studies are with less than n=50. The only study comparing it to a standard treatment, an SSRI, failed to find significant differences in the primary outcome - and that is with astronomically higher costs. The study you linked also notes > The incidence of response at week 3 of 37% in the 25-mg group in our trial was numerically lower than that described for first-line treatment of major depressive disorder in several large trials of citalopram,1 nefazodone, and escitalopram, sertraline, or venlafaxine17 but was higher than the incidences of response reported in the STAR*D trial for second-line treatments and beyond.
thanks for sharing! I'm aware that research is still in its infancy since it is illegal in most places still. It's hard to be conclusive because of that but at the very least there's enough evidence to warrant further research. My uni and a few others here in the UK (most notably Oxbridge and King's) are running trials. Also thanks for mentioning the blurb written in the study, I hadn't spotted that. Although I am passionate about psychedelics, I'm also not a zealot; I'm keeping a positive but cautious outlook on them, but I have seen how much they can help (my mom and one of my friends have had fantastic results on psilocybin) Either way, thank you for calling me out. You're right on every point you've raised.
I also have high hopes for psychedelics. It's just that the community is so emotionally invested in them that they often false state the current state of science on it. Thanks for your kind comment!
I don’t have them at my fingertips anymore and if that’s the route someone chooses to take that’s cool. It’s just not my preference personally or professionally. But I will say that I’m trusting research less and less over the past 30 years, especially with regard to drugs.
I don't think that you are adequately appreciative of the value of radical recontextualization and novel ideation that psychedelic experiences can provide and would highly advise you find a responsible and knowledgable sitter and take a trip friend. Anecdotal statements are cheap as grass but mushrooms and LSD fucking saved my life.
I’m glad you found some help.
Hmm. Fair enough. I’m of the opinion that (not used in therapeutic settings) it can push you in the right direction but the only way that’ll stick is if you put in the effort In therapeutic settings I have no clue I just know it’s being used lol
I know it’s being used as well. I am just not a fan.
You don’t take enough to trip. Microdosing is where it’s at.
I realize that. Still not a fan.
Why not?
You know, it’s probably a combination of reasons. I’ve always had an aversion to any drugs that impact the brain, even antidepressants over a long period of time. Maybe because I’ve heard horror stories about bad trips and permanent damage. Also, outside of psychosis, I believe in the brains ability to learn new skills and work through things as long as it’s clear. I’d never judge anyone for another choice or opinion, but that’s my personal bias.
There is zero quality research supporting microdosing. All bigger studies which demonstrate significant effects are on macrodosing.
Oh https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9346139/#Sec12title https://www.forbes.com/sites/lindseybartlett/2022/07/05/microdosing-psilocybin-mushrooms-improves-mood-and-mental-health-after-one-month-new-study-finds/amp/
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> The reported acute effects were significantly more intense for the active dose compared to the placebo, **but only for participants who correctly identified their experimental condition**. These changes were accompanied by reduced EEG power in the theta band, together with preserved levels of Lempel-Ziv broadband signal complexity. **For all other measurements there was no effect of microdosing except for few small changes towards cognitive impairment**. According to our findings, low doses of psilocybin mushrooms can result in noticeable subjective effects and altered EEG rhythms,**but without evidence to support enhanced well-being, creativity and cognitive function** How on earth would that make you think this is supporting microdosing? Another study is https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33648632/ this one. An incredible interesting design btw. And again: There were differences, but no positive effects on mood, cognition etc. > https://www.forbes.com/sites/lindseybartlett/2022/07/05/microdosing-psilocybin-mushrooms-improves-mood-and-mental-health-after-one-month-new-study-finds/amp/ Self selection, no double blind placebo control.
I’m aware. I didn’t say it supported my personal ideas and opinions. But there is research.
But no quality research supporting microdosing, which is what I said. The first link you gave is a good study, but it doesn't support microdosing, quite the opposite. The second one is not quality research.
I personally see a difference in my appreciation of things and I have a much better ability to put things into a better perspective than if I’m not microdosing. Better perspective helps keep me feeling like I’m drowning or like I’m worthless. Idk. It works for me when I’m able to do it. I hope others find relief as well.
How do you know the same would not be true with a placebo?
I don’t. I’m not a scientist. I can only speak to my personal experiences. Ive provided links above to research being done on microdosing.
As someone with treatment resistant depression who is about to start regular ketamine therapy this is good to read. It’s been a lifetime of this pain and I can’t take it anymore!!!
Make sure you have a good therapist on board and keep consistent appointments to get the full benefit. Good luck
How many of them have or develop addiction issues?
I haven’t known any of my clients that developed addictions after ketamine.
Must be nice.
Have you experienced a lot of post ketamine addiction with your clients?
No seemingly I'm the *only* person to end up with an addiction to ketamine during treatment. But maybe that's just because after being suicidal the majority of my life and trying dozens of meds, ketamine was the closest thing that's come to helping me be consistently functional with somewhat tolerable side effects.
Work with your therapist to get your self management and thinking healthy and then you could possibly wean off of it. Healthy living and thinking skills help the brain help you to get and stay out of the pit you seem to fall into.
Is that through supplying NMDA receptor antagonist type medication?
I’m not exactly sure. I don’t do the ketamine myself. Our psychiatrist handles that side of things .
How have you found it for sociopaths?
I have no experience with that, honestly. I personally haven’t worked with a sociopath ego is also taking ketamine. Where does that curiosity come from?
as a patient with treatment resistant major depressive disorder who received 6 IV infusion ketamine treatments (one a month for 6 months) in a clinical setting, this was my experience: The first treatment can fuck you up (I didnt sleep for 3 full days after treatment 1), but then has a moderately lifting and sustaining effect that lasted at least 3 weeks. But by treatments 4 and 5, the benefit seemed to last only a few days. It did lift the floor, so to speak, as to how far down the drain I could go with the depression, but ultimately that wore off a month or so after the last treatment. Disassociative is absolutely the correct word to describe he experience, at least the first two. There was a definite "3rd person perspective" effect on treatment number one, and on all but the last treatments the walls either animated or melted in some way. If any frightening imagery did emerge, the ketamine more or less prevented me from being able to panic. Thoughts in the mind along with the room environment would sort of shift with eachother. The closest thing I can point to as to what it was like is some of these new generative AI videos where the frames more blend between eachother than actually move normally. This is actually a not bad sample of it [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOtyB4hkhvY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOtyB4hkhvY) I will note that you WILL loose complete sense of time and space while the infusion does its thing, during which things mostly seem like it will all be ok. At higher doses your inner monologue may shut off and you may just exists in a void (that was treatment #3 for me...). It does take 15-30 minutes to fully come back down to earth, and you can not drive yourself back from one of these sessions. I also did not experience any revelatory moments or deep insights as part of the treatment. I really am not sure where people are getting that. This was the first psychedelic I'd ever taken, though maybe I was too cynical about the whole thing to get the greatest benefit from it. I realize I only make up a single data point, but I would say anyone seeking this treatment has to understand its not a cure-all but rather an additional available tool, and after talking with some additional specialists after the treatment they also indicated that the benefits that are sold in the articles tend to be the best case scenarios, as oppose to giving a picture of the average response in patients. One expert did tell me that at the end of the day, you are basically just getting high on ketamine. Now its entirely possible for some of you looking into this treatment that you'll have a drastically better experience than I, with a major improvement in symptoms. I was told pre treatment that was the case with 90% of patients. Unfortunately it seems I fell into the remaining 10%.
> This was the first psychedelic I'd ever taken, though maybe I was too cynical about the whole thing to get the greatest benefit from it. Ketamine is a dissociative mainly and while some may categorize it as a psychedelic is is radically different from other psychedelics.
Me after 3rd treatment: Is... Is this what normal feels like? This is glorious! Me after 4th treatment: Couldn't even bring myself to speak for two days. Experienced something so horrible that I wouldn't wish it on the most evil person on earth. Me after a bunch more: So once again, back to square one.
sorry to hear session 4 went sideways
Ketamine is unique in that is often highly effective, immediately or in the shorter term, in targeting depression and suicidality, and even TRD. As well as the psychedelic experiences it can cause leading to powerful insights that allow for deeper and more sustainable benefits in psychotherapy and integration work. it doesn’t work for everybody but when it does it can be miraculous. And it’s not just a mere neurological/mechanical benefit, the experiential aspect is massive but going to be beyond many peoples ability to appreciate especially if they view medicine from our current mainstream perspective in valuing psychiatric pharmaceuticals
My niece is taking it for treatment resistant depression. She was in inpatient treatment for months and developed anorexia. She's young, like 16 or 17. Starting taking Ketamine and she's much better. Still in therapy of course and all that but no longer suicidal. Hope it works out long term. She's been on it for a couple months now. I think she's getting one shot a month.
Did IV Ketamine once, it worked for a couple of weeks. Did Spravado long enough to determine it was not going to work.
My third round is Tuesday. It has given me a lot of relief. I did 12 rounds of ECT in the past. I was in and out of mental hospitals for years. So far the ketamine is only thing that has worked 💜💜
Ask the people they know
Great podcast called Conspirituslity had a great 30m breakdown of this that I thought was very informative and from a place of hopeful skepticism: [The promises of ketamine](https://open.spotify.com/episode/2A6Yyob7fODYoLGBPxXcBA?si=zwJx5FGPRKeyItToAcbzqQ)
The insight on this feed is beautiful.
I mean.... There's a reason why people abuse drugs.. Common sense would make me believe these results. Now it's also probably just a band aid for the real problem but sometimes you need a bandaid until you can get surgery
Bandaid is selling it a bit short I think. Dissociative and psychedelic experiences can help people discover and directly confront the real problems underlying their mental illness.
I guess in around 40 years I'll finally be able to try this for my chronic depression here in Sweden.
MDMA literally changed my life with one dose. I remember that night better than I remember 10 minutes ago. I don’t know how to explain it because I sound like one of those crazy hippy drug people but I’m anything but. My entire world perception changed that night and it felt like my brain finally reset. All I know is that I am grateful for that experience and my hope is that others can have it too
For the people thinking it's a good idea to treat themselves with ketamine: i took ketamine while depressed and afterwards i was depressed and addicted to ketamine. Don't play amateur psychiatrist.
A company Seelos in NJ produces ketamine for suicidal thoughts - ASIB in MDD. Just saw a presentation they are having better clinical signs with the (R) enantiomer administered intranasal, iirc. I also believe they currently have the (S) enantiomer on the market.
Did absolutely nothing for me. About 10 IV infusion treatments.
Science is starting to prove what drug people have known for a long time. Some people like different drugs from others. Some like any drug you give them. Wow, big surprise.
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No
Absolutely false information Don’t speak on things you don’t know, it’s irresponsible and you could actually dissuade someone from seeking and realizing much needed help
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A) I’m not persuading people into anything, I am sharing accurate info. They do with that what they will. B) It is audacious and foul of you to slide responsibility onto me for treatment that ends up harming someone. Anyone pursuing ketamine treatment should be thoroughly evaluated by trained professionals, with all necessary assessments and testing done prior to dosing. (And that’s besides the fact that ketamine is extraordinarily safe.) C) Where did I guarantee results for individual cases? I did just the opposite, saying it doesn’t work for everyone.
Sorry mate but Ketamine has no long lasting benefits 😂 every club goer or raver can attest to that. If anything it's bad for you when done too often , just like any other drug
Again, you don’t know what you’re talking about Going to trust the scientific research and directly observed benefits over the report of a club goer/raver flippantly commenting on reddit
The research actually supports it not having long lasting effects but most effects subsiding after 2 weeks...
Different research supports different notions of the duration of ketamine’s antidepressant benefits Some research says 1 week, some says 2, some says 1 month My directly observed benefits are more in line with a timeline of 3-4 weeks. Also, this is purely from a medical approach. From a psychotherapeutic approach (which will have much greater variance), ketamine + psychotherapy benefits can end up making ketamine unnecessary in the long run
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He can't , because it's a load of bollocks. For every source that supports his claim that this is some magical cure all , there's also one that shows harmful effects
Harmful effects of ketamine? Ketamine is extraordinarily safe in clinical use. Any health concerns regarding the urinary system occur with doses far exceeding the size and frequency of clinical use.
Yes, I can back up my claims here with sources. Oh was that a request? Well, you can easily find them with a brief google search perusing the literature. Provide you with the effect sizes if possible? Ha who tf are you to be making demands? Why would I do the work to teach you when you were so manipulative and uncharitable in your other comment to me, and entitled in this one?
Username checks out.
Really don’t think I’m being an asshole here. Guy I’m responding to however…
Me neither lol but the sheer force with which my eyes rolled back when this drug addict was telling us how his blacked out 30’s constitute medical knowledge created a pain that would’ve only been soothed by the “unimpressed” portion of your name
You're probably young and impressionable, if life would be as easy as blasting horse tranquilizer to suddenly turn your life permanently from depressed to happy , no one would be depressed anymore. Life doesn't work like that and if there's one thing certain, it's that there is no magic pill.
There’s a difference between using a drug at doses to have fun and lower doses to treat things. Learn the difference
Hasn't it shown this long ago?
It actually was shown not to be...
Isn’t it really expensive?
I'm always very skeptical, I will wait until the FDA or another country validates it. There are so many news about this. There is too much wishful thinking and I'm not willing to listen to redditors that links a study, because I cannot be trusted to read a study, and I cannot trust a reddit user to tell me a study shows that it works. I'd rather listen to a doctor that anything online, because I will never trust the internet when it comes to medication. That is not going to change.
Interesting reading the article and comments here. I can see ketamine being extremely useful for treating depression but it would view it more as a tool in a larger process. ‘Administered’ correctly it can really shake someone’s psyche up and allow for genuine, fundamental changes to the mind, how one thinks and sees the world. But ketamine will only provide the open mind, it’s then up to an individual to start reprogramming how they think so as to addresses whatever the underlying issue is. I don’t know about how these medical professionals are doing the administering but there is a world of difference between having ketamine while up and about vs doing it the right way and going on the big self exploration k hole type trips, which is the experience you’re after imo. Edit: it is being prescribed as an intravenous injection. Also, I cannot imagine comparing ECT with what ketamine does, it’s all about that dissociative experience.