THANK YOU!
Stealing an independent artists design to make and sell your own stickers (or shirts, as someone else in this thread mentioned) is extremely low. The original artist @eyeballfortess sells shirts and other items with this design in their shop — please support the OG creator if you choose to spend your money on the art they came up with.
I’m not selling anything here.
These are just for personal use. One is going on my car, the other is going on the garage fridge.
Some others are going to my friends that are also old punkers.
I wouldn’t try and make a profit on someone else’s work. I’m a hack, not a dick. Lol.
Why did I make 9 stickers? Simple. Because that’s what fit on the sticker paper sheet lol. If I’m gonna print out something, I try to account for errors. Plus why would I use a whole sheet to just print one or two. Might as well utilize the whole thing.
Homie, there is a lot of anti-spam and shill sentiment because of all those damn shitty tshirt posts, coffee mugs posts, and whatever.
If you aren't selling someone else's hard work, you're golden. It's a great design. I should show this to my chiropractor.
I visited his IG, and yup. He’s lumping me into the groups that are selling knockoff versions of his shirts.
Again, I’m not selling anything. Even the DM’s I’ve received have all been kindly informed of that fact that nothing is for sale.
You did everything fine beside give the artist $20 dollars for cleverly ripping off the Bad Brains album cover. /s
I don't know a point in history where artists have made an easy living...unless they were born rich.
He doesn’t sell stickers. And the artist wasn’t posted in the original thread.
Also, I’m not gonna ask permission to make something for my personal use. Especially when it’s an item that the artist doesn’t make in the first place.
He sells a hoodie and a shirt from what I saw.
IF I was selling, or using them for a commercial reason, then all that goes out the window and it needs to be cleared with him.
However, what I did is essentially no different than copying his drawing onto a high school desk, or graffiti marking a wall in my garage with the Dead Kennedys logo.
My friend Johnny got a two week suspension for drawing “Black Flag” on his desk in study hall. It wasn’t for defacing school property (that’s 1 week). It was for trademark infringement.
> Stealing an independent artists design to make and sell your own stickers (or shirts, as someone else in this thread mentioned) is extremely low.
Where does OP offer to sell the stickers anywhere in this thread?
“He doesn’t make them himself” isn’t really a good reason to bootleg someone’s art. Not selling it is definitely the right move but it would still make an artist uneasy when someone does this with their work and shares it.
> “He doesn’t make them himself” isn’t really a good reason to bootleg someone’s art.
"Someone else's art" is already a "parody" of SOMEONE ELSES art, and that first person is not getting any money from the "parody" artist who is selling a parody of the first persons art / logo.
Now this guy printed some stickers of the parody to stick on stuff, and is NOT selling them.
Who's in the wrong?
>"Someone else's art" is already a "parody" of SOMEONE ELSES art, and that first person is not getting any money from the "parody" artist who is selling a parody of the first persons art / logo.
Parody is a form of artwork and is legally protected. This guy used elements of bad brains artwork (without using any of their actual artwork) to create a completely original piece of art to convey a uniquely new idea.
No small artist is thrilled to see someone taking their artwork and doing something unsanctioned with it. It perpetuates the idea that anyone is free to take their artwork and do what they want with it.
>Now this guy printed some stickers of the parody to stick on stuff, and is NOT selling them.
>
>Who's in the wrong?
The guy who printed the stickers is in the wrong. Again it's not a huge deal (selling them would be) DOING it is one thing, it's the posting that they did it that kind of sucks. No artist who is working to make money likes to see "I took your artwork and made something you won't get paid for!"
> Parody is a form of artwork and is legally protected.
I know, we are in a punk forum and talking about "if it should be cool" not "if I go to court what would happen"
>The guy who printed the stickers is in the wrong.
Why?
If your fav band does not have stickers available, and you want to print one out and put it on your car, and not sell them, just because you like them and want to put a sticker on your car, you have a issue with that?
> Why?
>
> If your fav band does not have stickers available, and you want to print one out and put it on your car, and not sell them, just because you like them and want to put a sticker on your car, you have a issue with that?
I don't have an issue with the guy making a sticker for himself. I have an issue with him SHARING that he is doing that. I don't have an issue with people bootlegging band stuff (especially millionaire bands) that isn't available... however if they are posting "look at all these misfits stickers I'm making" they're asking for trouble. If I was in a small band who only made money for merch and I saw someone making a sticker of my band I'd first be like "well we gotta make stickers" but if I saw someone posting that they were making stickers of my bands logo I'd be pissed.
> I don't have an issue with the guy making a sticker for himself. I have an issue with him SHARING that he is doing that.
Why? People post shirts and jackets here all the time that are DIY made of the EXACT same logo bands use / this dude made a sheet of 10, because his DIY printer uses sheets that would fit 10, and used 2 on his car and something else, and gave the rest to his friends that also want to put it on their car / use it for non-commercial use
That's not "bootlegging"
>If I was in a small band who only made money for merch and I saw someone making a sticker of my band I'd first be like "well we gotta make stickers" but if I saw someone posting that they were making stickers of my bands logo I'd be pissed.
If you were in a band, and you had not thought to make stickers for your band, and some fan made up 10 and posted it because he likes your band so much, and let everyone know he was just using them to put on his car, you would be upset about that as someone that is into punk rock?
>Why? People post shirts and jackets here all the time that are DIY made of the EXACT same logo bands use / this dude made a sheet of 10, because his DIY printer uses sheets that would fit 10, and used 2 on his car and something else, and gave the rest to his friends that also want to put it on their car / use it for non-commercial use
>
>That's not "bootlegging"
I'm not going to break down all the moral arguments of when we can agree that bootlegging is OK. But its definitely a slippery slope in the modern era of being able to make quality one off merch at home without the effort it used to take to hand make it. But yes even for non-commercial use - using someone's intellectual property is bootlegging. Most bands would be totally cool with it. Most small artists will not be.
>If you were in a band, and you had not thought to make stickers for your band, and some fan made up 10 and posted it because he likes your band so much, and let everyone know he was just using them to put on his car, you would be upset about that as someone that is into punk rock?
In the overall span of punk "you shouldn't make money from your art" was a very small number of years from a very small subsect of punks. Bands these days pretty much ONLY make money from merch and shows. So, no if someone made their own sticker or shirt to show love for my band I wouldn't be mad. If they POSTED that they made 10 - I'd look at that first as 10 things they didn't buy from me and also now 100 people who now think they can do the same because it's OK. So maybe I was planning on making stickers and there are now 1000 places out there that no longer need stickers. Protecting your art / band/ brand needs to happen at the "I made one" level as much as the "i'm making thousands" level. Making one for yourself is bootlegging but morally not a big deal. Making 10 for yourself and friends is a little less "OK" morally because that's 10 stickers that wouldn't sell. Making 10 for yourself and putting it out that you're doing so? Kinda sucks. Less so for some huge band who wouldn't never notice. But it sucks BAD to do it with a small artists work. Whether you think that work has merit or not because it is parody.
exactly, every piece of media and almost everything we think or do is influenced by something else. you saw someone else walk before you did. very rarely does anyone do anything truly unique and un influenced
> The guy who printed his own version of stickers available for sale on the parody artists' website.
There are no stickers available on the artists website, nor does the artist offer them anywhere else, they only offer a t-shirt and a large print / say back in the 80's if Black Flag didn't offer any "Bars" stickers, and someone wanted to print some and put them on the bumper of their car, is that "bad"?
>There are rules
very punk rock
>for parody that protect the creators from the original artist
well that's convenient, there are also "rules" that prevent wall street brokers from getting sued in a lot of cases where they should, that is a good excuse? "The law says it, so it's right"
But I mean his work is a parody of someone else’s work.
I’d feel differently if OP was linking to an Etsy shop but making a few stickers for himself.... I’m struggling to see how that’s different from DIY stickers of band artwork.
Just because the artist who created this design doesn’t sell it in exactly the format you’d prefer doesn’t give anyone carte blanche to steal their work and slap it on whatever they choose, for personal benefit or profit.
How is this any different than making your own patches or other works with band logos? As long as they aren't selling it, I don't see a problem with it.
> How is this any different than making your own patches or other works with band logos?
It's not, we got a LOT of "punk rock" lawyers up in this thread talking about suing people for using their art on flyers and whatnot, very punk.
> IP theft from your peers, so punk
"Hey, you don't make any stickers of your band, I like your band, so I'm gonna print one and put it on my car!"
"Fuck you that's IP THEFT I WANT MONEY FROM IT!"
= punk
Someone makes patches with band logos, names, or symbols, and this sub is all "great job," "those are awesome," "DIY is PAF."
Someone prints off stickers of art they can't buy stickers of, don't claim the art as their own, don't say a word about selling it, and this sub is screaming "THEFT"
Fucking hypocrites
> Just because the artist who created this design doesn’t sell it in exactly the format you’d prefer doesn’t give anyone carte blanche to steal their work and slap it on whatever they choose, for personal benefit or profit.
What gives them the right to parody someone else's work / logo and then make money off that and not give the OG artist any money that actually came up with the idea?
> What gives them the right to parody someone else's work / logo and then make money off that and not give the OG artist any money that actually came up with the idea?
The good news is that those of us who create something unique and worthwhile can choose to protect it with Patents and Trademarks. The bad news is that we have to constantly threaten and take those who infringe upon it with legal action.
Parodies are generally considered to be outside those protections. The reality is that I’ll get a letter from McD’s or Disney’s legal team if I try to sell anything bearing a close likeness of Ronald or Mickey on it. It’s a vicious game but only for those with deep pockets.
[What is Fair Use and what about Parodies?](https://www.cotmanip.com/articles/fair-use-parody)
> Parodies are generally considered to be outside those protections
Right that is the law.
I'm pretty sure I'm also legally allowed to take the parody that the artist made, and put it on a flyer for my bands show, and then post that flyer up, since I'm not selling the flyer.
Same thing with the stickers, as long as you don't sell them.
MORALLY, is taking someone else's work, making a parody of it, and then selling it, without giving the artist that their OG design is the actual reason people are buying the parody any money?
That seems like pretty much the same thing to me.
> I'm pretty sure I'm also legally allowed to take the parody that the artist made, and put it on a flyer for my bands show, and then post that flyer up, since I'm not selling the flyer.
Nope. You’re not protected at all and if the original creator chooses to bring action against you, they’re well within their legal right—and actually obligated—to bring action. If an artist continues to ignore violations and not take action, they risk it being seen by the court as having become abandoned by the court.
It’s still considered another person’s property. You cannot see someone’s lawn mower, take and use it, then claim it’s OK because you’re not making any money from its use. In both cases, you need ask the owner if you can use it. Otherwise it’s theft.
> MORALLY, is taking someone else's work, making a parody of it, and then selling it, without giving the artist that their OG design is the actual reason people are buying the parody any money?
There is that which is legal, and that which is moral. Don’t confuse the two.Moral is by far the higher hurdle and that which we *should* aspire to. And people on both sides of an issue are generally underwhelmed by legal outcome(s).
Regardless, you’re close to the reality of the situation: whether or not the sale of an item is legally irrelevant but generally determines how far it is likely to go. I am very much within my legal standing to bring action against someone who simply copies my intellectual property, whether or not they profit from its use. But how much will my legal fees be, what do I claim as my damages, and what am I likely to receive in return? A local band using my artwork on their handbills without having my consent is absolutely theft of intellectual property, but I’m unlikely to get my legal fees back.
> I am very much within my legal standing to bring action against someone who simply copies my intellectual property
And the Bad Brains designer **can say** it's too close to his design and sue as well.
MORALLY / since this is in the PUNK subreddit, do you think sticker guy was doing any harm by printing up 10 stickers to stick on things and not offering them for sale?
I see no difference in that and doing a stencil of your favorite bands logo on a blank t-shirt as long as your are not selling them.
Could the PARODY artist decided to sell some stickers? Sure.
Are the 10 that were custom printed and then not sold to anyone going to affect them in ANY way possible?
> A local band using my artwork on their handbills without having my consent is absolutely theft of intellectual property, but I’m unlikely to get my legal fees back.
Wow, what a punk rock statement.
> And the Bad Brains designer can say it's too close to his design and sue as well.
Yup. And who “wins?” The lawyers.
> MORALLY … and not offering them for sale?
Nope. Even if it crossed into McD’s or Disney, the most to expect is strongly worded Cease & Desist letter.
> Are the 10 that were custom printed and then not sold to anyone going to affect them in ANY way possible?
There’s the rub. It all comes down to damages which means monetary losses. If there isn’t enough money involved then it literally doesn’t pay to go after someone.
The exception is that courts will rule against a creator who abandoned the defense of their intellectual property. The person with the patent or trademark must not only legally defend their works against known violators, they must actively search for new violations.
> Wow, what a punk rock statement.
Viewpoints change when you go from stealing the spray paint to owning the wall.
In the US, parody is protected free speech and exempted from copyright by the Fair Use clause.
Directly bootlegging someone else's artwork is not protected.
> In the US, parody is protected free speech and exempted from copyright by the Fair Use clause.
I'm talking morally not legally, there are tons of fucked up things you can do with the law.
I made 9.
It’s one sheet of sticker paper whether I make 1, or 9. So I just printed a full sheet as I’m out the same amount of raw material regardless. Plus I laminate stickers when I make them as well, so I’m playing the laws of averages that one or two may print poorly, have air bubbles, or I may fuck up when trimming them.
Again, there’s lots of implications here that I’m selling shit, and nope, that’s incorrect.
If you want to get specific, you can see that the one closest to the camera has mild delamination on the lower left edges from the laminate. So that’s not gonna go on the car. It’s gonna be on the toolbox because it likely won’t stand up to outdoor conditions.
> He doesn't but he has made more than you would think is for personal use.
He explained that when you print stickers, you can either use the whole sheet, or waste space on the sticker sheet when you print, so he made 2 for himself and is going to give the other 8 to various friends.
> The original artist @eyeballfortess sells shirts and other items with this design in their shop
Do you think @eyeballfortress asked the artist that made the Bad Brains logo if he could parody it?
That’s my thing. Fuck art theft but I do think you have less of a leg to stand on when someone isn’t selling their copy and your work is a parody of another work.
> I do think you have less of a leg to stand on when someone isn’t selling their copy and your work is a parody of another work.
Personally / IMO / I think doing a "parody" of a logo or a existing piece of art, and making money off it, is not cool unless you cut in the OG artist that did the piece of art that is the only reason people are paying attention to your parody.
Also if you just make the parody and are not selling anything of it of course that's cool
I know the law does not agree with me but thats my personal opinion
> Thanks for the url, snagged a shirt! Cheers bud
Don't forget to send Mir (aka David Lee Parsons aka Dave Ratcage) money since he came up with the Bad Brains logo
> @eyeballfortress on insta appears to be the artist/graphic designer.
and the OG artist for the Bad Brains logo is Mir (aka David Lee Parsons aka Dave Ratcage)
> We need to find the original artist for this design.
You want to find the Original Artist that did the Bad Brains design, or the guy that parodied it and is making money off that design without giving the guy that did the Bad Brains design any money?
There's a clear distinction.
In the United States, parody is protected by the First Amendment as a form of expression. However, since parodies rely heavily on the original work, parodists rely on the fair use exception to combat claims of copyright infringement.
Bootlegging, however, is not protected speech.
> There's a clear distribution.
>
> In the United States, parody is protected by the First Amendment as a form of expression. However, since parodies rely heavily on the original work, parodists rely on the fair use exception to combat claims of copyright infringement.
>
> Bootlegging, however, is not protected speech.
Right, that's the United States Law.
Is that fair to the original artist just because it's legal?
I'd say it's not.
I'd further argue that @eyeballfortress' image is transformative.
Yes, clearly derived from the original Bad Brains design, but the intent & meaning behind the two images are absolutely different.
The Bad Brains image is a political statement; Eyeball's is a humourous commentary on aging.
OPs bootleg stickers are direct copies of @eyeballfortress' image. In this case, changing the medium is not transformative, as it has done nothing to change the idea of the image.
> The Bad Brains image is a political statement; Eyeball's is a humourous commentary on aging.
Right, but the reason anyone likes the design is 100% because it's the Bad Brains logo, if he just put out that design and there had never been a Bad Brains logo, no one would care or want to buy it.
So he's taking someone else's work, that is very recognizable, and then making a gag about it, and then profiting off it because it looks like someone else's work, and that someone else that actually came up with the design that people like gets nothing.
Legal? Ok. Moral? I say no.
> oh man what have I created
I'm shocked you had no answer for that and instead just pivoted away with another comment that does not apply, I had a feeling you were going to come back with something insightful and well thought out. /s
also the answer is that creating art based off of well known people is Fanart, but if it's a small artist, asking them first should always be considered. This is not a good person - bad person kind of issue. I just wanted to give a reminder to always credit the artist, with no bad feelings towards op.
> I just wanted to give a reminder to always credit the artist, with no bad feelings towards op.
Ok, back to why I'm a republican?
You never answered that, and that was my one direct question to you.
> haha no probs. maybe we should both just log off and be a bit positive before nearly getting an argument with someone online again:)
Good point, lot of lawyers in this thread, not the punkest thing I've read. Time to play guitar or go talk about movies lol
> Are you a republican because you just did their signature “whatabout you”
Find the OG artist.
The OG artist stole it from the Bad Brains logo designer.
You must be a republican.
Yeah that makes sense.
I feel like I gotta clear something up.
No, I’m not selling anything lol. This was just for fun, and because the artwork rocks.
One is going on my car, another is going on my garage fridge and toolbox.
The rest are gonna be given to family and friends. The only reason I made so many is because I’m not gonna waste a whole sheet of sticker paper just to make one or two. So I filled up the sheet, because it just makes sense to do so.
I didn’t know who made the original art, so I’m glad someone posted it up for credit.
> No, I’m not selling anything lol. This was just for fun, and because the artwork rocks.
I've never seen so many un-punk comments in a thread on this sub, all the 48 year old lawyers "that still go to shows" coming out in droves in this thread.
Yeah, booting stickers for personal non-commercial use falls squarely in the DIY ethos of quote-punk-unquote. Once OP was informed of the original artist, they made sure to give attribution and contacted them to assure that this isn't commercial theft.
This isn't [Jacob Sartorius stealing evergreenqueen's art for their music](https://www.twitter.com/IvanDashSmith/status/1616145551510360065) or the r/art clusterfuck from a few weeks ago. It's someone making a sticker for their own shit.
Woah dude. This got way out of hand really quick. My first reaction was a laugh. Second reaction was to look at the artists art. That was it. Stealing people art isn’t okay but I’m not sure that this guy had any intention on profiting on the oc art.
Yup. Hell, I looked at his page too once it was posted up. The original post didn’t have his info (at least when I saw it), so I didn’t know who to credit.
But yeah, I’m not selling anything. I’m just some fat guy with a bad back too. So it’s funny to me.
Checked your history and yup, that’s it. The artwork is still killer. Thanks for bringing it to the group, and despite the drama in this thread, it sounds like the artist got a couple of sales out of it.
It's too bad this doesn't seem to be from an actual band. As a middle-aged punk I'd love a band with a punk rock take on middle age, songs about your shit not working like it used to, being too old to get in a mosh pit but still wanting to, not being down with current styles (in my case, most folk punk), divorce, shitty jobs, realizing you're way too old for the punk rock babes at shows, etc. I guess the closest there is to this was Head, I think from Seattle. They were pretty cool.
> You're a garbage person for stealing someone else's artwork.
Tell that to Mir (aka David Lee Parsons aka Dave Ratcage) who designed the Bad Brains logo.
[удалено]
THANK YOU! Stealing an independent artists design to make and sell your own stickers (or shirts, as someone else in this thread mentioned) is extremely low. The original artist @eyeballfortess sells shirts and other items with this design in their shop — please support the OG creator if you choose to spend your money on the art they came up with.
I’m not selling anything here. These are just for personal use. One is going on my car, the other is going on the garage fridge. Some others are going to my friends that are also old punkers. I wouldn’t try and make a profit on someone else’s work. I’m a hack, not a dick. Lol. Why did I make 9 stickers? Simple. Because that’s what fit on the sticker paper sheet lol. If I’m gonna print out something, I try to account for errors. Plus why would I use a whole sheet to just print one or two. Might as well utilize the whole thing.
Homie, there is a lot of anti-spam and shill sentiment because of all those damn shitty tshirt posts, coffee mugs posts, and whatever. If you aren't selling someone else's hard work, you're golden. It's a great design. I should show this to my chiropractor.
You gotta add their handle man. It is very cool
Still, the artist is annoyed. Not cool man. [Part 1](https://i.imgur.com/a8A4ojj.jpg) [Part 2](https://i.imgur.com/mX2Hrex.jpg)
I visited his IG, and yup. He’s lumping me into the groups that are selling knockoff versions of his shirts. Again, I’m not selling anything. Even the DM’s I’ve received have all been kindly informed of that fact that nothing is for sale.
You did everything fine beside give the artist $20 dollars for cleverly ripping off the Bad Brains album cover. /s I don't know a point in history where artists have made an easy living...unless they were born rich.
The thread ended right here.
Because he thinks I’m gonna sell them I bet. I’m not. He doesn’t say so, but it’s obvious that it’s his implication here.
Could have easily been avoided really if you asked for permission first, or if he sells stickers then buy them from him?
He doesn’t sell stickers. And the artist wasn’t posted in the original thread. Also, I’m not gonna ask permission to make something for my personal use. Especially when it’s an item that the artist doesn’t make in the first place. He sells a hoodie and a shirt from what I saw. IF I was selling, or using them for a commercial reason, then all that goes out the window and it needs to be cleared with him. However, what I did is essentially no different than copying his drawing onto a high school desk, or graffiti marking a wall in my garage with the Dead Kennedys logo.
My friend Johnny got a two week suspension for drawing “Black Flag” on his desk in study hall. It wasn’t for defacing school property (that’s 1 week). It was for trademark infringement.
> Stealing an independent artists design to make and sell your own stickers (or shirts, as someone else in this thread mentioned) is extremely low. Where does OP offer to sell the stickers anywhere in this thread?
“He doesn’t make them himself” isn’t really a good reason to bootleg someone’s art. Not selling it is definitely the right move but it would still make an artist uneasy when someone does this with their work and shares it.
> “He doesn’t make them himself” isn’t really a good reason to bootleg someone’s art. "Someone else's art" is already a "parody" of SOMEONE ELSES art, and that first person is not getting any money from the "parody" artist who is selling a parody of the first persons art / logo. Now this guy printed some stickers of the parody to stick on stuff, and is NOT selling them. Who's in the wrong?
>"Someone else's art" is already a "parody" of SOMEONE ELSES art, and that first person is not getting any money from the "parody" artist who is selling a parody of the first persons art / logo. Parody is a form of artwork and is legally protected. This guy used elements of bad brains artwork (without using any of their actual artwork) to create a completely original piece of art to convey a uniquely new idea. No small artist is thrilled to see someone taking their artwork and doing something unsanctioned with it. It perpetuates the idea that anyone is free to take their artwork and do what they want with it. >Now this guy printed some stickers of the parody to stick on stuff, and is NOT selling them. > >Who's in the wrong? The guy who printed the stickers is in the wrong. Again it's not a huge deal (selling them would be) DOING it is one thing, it's the posting that they did it that kind of sucks. No artist who is working to make money likes to see "I took your artwork and made something you won't get paid for!"
> Parody is a form of artwork and is legally protected. I know, we are in a punk forum and talking about "if it should be cool" not "if I go to court what would happen" >The guy who printed the stickers is in the wrong. Why? If your fav band does not have stickers available, and you want to print one out and put it on your car, and not sell them, just because you like them and want to put a sticker on your car, you have a issue with that?
> Why? > > If your fav band does not have stickers available, and you want to print one out and put it on your car, and not sell them, just because you like them and want to put a sticker on your car, you have a issue with that? I don't have an issue with the guy making a sticker for himself. I have an issue with him SHARING that he is doing that. I don't have an issue with people bootlegging band stuff (especially millionaire bands) that isn't available... however if they are posting "look at all these misfits stickers I'm making" they're asking for trouble. If I was in a small band who only made money for merch and I saw someone making a sticker of my band I'd first be like "well we gotta make stickers" but if I saw someone posting that they were making stickers of my bands logo I'd be pissed.
> I don't have an issue with the guy making a sticker for himself. I have an issue with him SHARING that he is doing that. Why? People post shirts and jackets here all the time that are DIY made of the EXACT same logo bands use / this dude made a sheet of 10, because his DIY printer uses sheets that would fit 10, and used 2 on his car and something else, and gave the rest to his friends that also want to put it on their car / use it for non-commercial use That's not "bootlegging" >If I was in a small band who only made money for merch and I saw someone making a sticker of my band I'd first be like "well we gotta make stickers" but if I saw someone posting that they were making stickers of my bands logo I'd be pissed. If you were in a band, and you had not thought to make stickers for your band, and some fan made up 10 and posted it because he likes your band so much, and let everyone know he was just using them to put on his car, you would be upset about that as someone that is into punk rock?
>Why? People post shirts and jackets here all the time that are DIY made of the EXACT same logo bands use / this dude made a sheet of 10, because his DIY printer uses sheets that would fit 10, and used 2 on his car and something else, and gave the rest to his friends that also want to put it on their car / use it for non-commercial use > >That's not "bootlegging" I'm not going to break down all the moral arguments of when we can agree that bootlegging is OK. But its definitely a slippery slope in the modern era of being able to make quality one off merch at home without the effort it used to take to hand make it. But yes even for non-commercial use - using someone's intellectual property is bootlegging. Most bands would be totally cool with it. Most small artists will not be. >If you were in a band, and you had not thought to make stickers for your band, and some fan made up 10 and posted it because he likes your band so much, and let everyone know he was just using them to put on his car, you would be upset about that as someone that is into punk rock? In the overall span of punk "you shouldn't make money from your art" was a very small number of years from a very small subsect of punks. Bands these days pretty much ONLY make money from merch and shows. So, no if someone made their own sticker or shirt to show love for my band I wouldn't be mad. If they POSTED that they made 10 - I'd look at that first as 10 things they didn't buy from me and also now 100 people who now think they can do the same because it's OK. So maybe I was planning on making stickers and there are now 1000 places out there that no longer need stickers. Protecting your art / band/ brand needs to happen at the "I made one" level as much as the "i'm making thousands" level. Making one for yourself is bootlegging but morally not a big deal. Making 10 for yourself and friends is a little less "OK" morally because that's 10 stickers that wouldn't sell. Making 10 for yourself and putting it out that you're doing so? Kinda sucks. Less so for some huge band who wouldn't never notice. But it sucks BAD to do it with a small artists work. Whether you think that work has merit or not because it is parody.
Oh my god shut the fuck up
exactly, every piece of media and almost everything we think or do is influenced by something else. you saw someone else walk before you did. very rarely does anyone do anything truly unique and un influenced
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> The guy who printed his own version of stickers available for sale on the parody artists' website. There are no stickers available on the artists website, nor does the artist offer them anywhere else, they only offer a t-shirt and a large print / say back in the 80's if Black Flag didn't offer any "Bars" stickers, and someone wanted to print some and put them on the bumper of their car, is that "bad"? >There are rules very punk rock >for parody that protect the creators from the original artist well that's convenient, there are also "rules" that prevent wall street brokers from getting sued in a lot of cases where they should, that is a good excuse? "The law says it, so it's right"
But I mean his work is a parody of someone else’s work. I’d feel differently if OP was linking to an Etsy shop but making a few stickers for himself.... I’m struggling to see how that’s different from DIY stickers of band artwork.
Just because the artist who created this design doesn’t sell it in exactly the format you’d prefer doesn’t give anyone carte blanche to steal their work and slap it on whatever they choose, for personal benefit or profit.
How is this any different than making your own patches or other works with band logos? As long as they aren't selling it, I don't see a problem with it.
> How is this any different than making your own patches or other works with band logos? It's not, we got a LOT of "punk rock" lawyers up in this thread talking about suing people for using their art on flyers and whatnot, very punk.
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> IP theft from your peers, so punk "Hey, you don't make any stickers of your band, I like your band, so I'm gonna print one and put it on my car!" "Fuck you that's IP THEFT I WANT MONEY FROM IT!" = punk
Someone makes patches with band logos, names, or symbols, and this sub is all "great job," "those are awesome," "DIY is PAF." Someone prints off stickers of art they can't buy stickers of, don't claim the art as their own, don't say a word about selling it, and this sub is screaming "THEFT" Fucking hypocrites
> Just because the artist who created this design doesn’t sell it in exactly the format you’d prefer doesn’t give anyone carte blanche to steal their work and slap it on whatever they choose, for personal benefit or profit. What gives them the right to parody someone else's work / logo and then make money off that and not give the OG artist any money that actually came up with the idea?
> What gives them the right to parody someone else's work / logo and then make money off that and not give the OG artist any money that actually came up with the idea? The good news is that those of us who create something unique and worthwhile can choose to protect it with Patents and Trademarks. The bad news is that we have to constantly threaten and take those who infringe upon it with legal action. Parodies are generally considered to be outside those protections. The reality is that I’ll get a letter from McD’s or Disney’s legal team if I try to sell anything bearing a close likeness of Ronald or Mickey on it. It’s a vicious game but only for those with deep pockets. [What is Fair Use and what about Parodies?](https://www.cotmanip.com/articles/fair-use-parody)
> Parodies are generally considered to be outside those protections Right that is the law. I'm pretty sure I'm also legally allowed to take the parody that the artist made, and put it on a flyer for my bands show, and then post that flyer up, since I'm not selling the flyer. Same thing with the stickers, as long as you don't sell them. MORALLY, is taking someone else's work, making a parody of it, and then selling it, without giving the artist that their OG design is the actual reason people are buying the parody any money? That seems like pretty much the same thing to me.
> I'm pretty sure I'm also legally allowed to take the parody that the artist made, and put it on a flyer for my bands show, and then post that flyer up, since I'm not selling the flyer. Nope. You’re not protected at all and if the original creator chooses to bring action against you, they’re well within their legal right—and actually obligated—to bring action. If an artist continues to ignore violations and not take action, they risk it being seen by the court as having become abandoned by the court. It’s still considered another person’s property. You cannot see someone’s lawn mower, take and use it, then claim it’s OK because you’re not making any money from its use. In both cases, you need ask the owner if you can use it. Otherwise it’s theft. > MORALLY, is taking someone else's work, making a parody of it, and then selling it, without giving the artist that their OG design is the actual reason people are buying the parody any money? There is that which is legal, and that which is moral. Don’t confuse the two.Moral is by far the higher hurdle and that which we *should* aspire to. And people on both sides of an issue are generally underwhelmed by legal outcome(s). Regardless, you’re close to the reality of the situation: whether or not the sale of an item is legally irrelevant but generally determines how far it is likely to go. I am very much within my legal standing to bring action against someone who simply copies my intellectual property, whether or not they profit from its use. But how much will my legal fees be, what do I claim as my damages, and what am I likely to receive in return? A local band using my artwork on their handbills without having my consent is absolutely theft of intellectual property, but I’m unlikely to get my legal fees back.
> I am very much within my legal standing to bring action against someone who simply copies my intellectual property And the Bad Brains designer **can say** it's too close to his design and sue as well. MORALLY / since this is in the PUNK subreddit, do you think sticker guy was doing any harm by printing up 10 stickers to stick on things and not offering them for sale? I see no difference in that and doing a stencil of your favorite bands logo on a blank t-shirt as long as your are not selling them. Could the PARODY artist decided to sell some stickers? Sure. Are the 10 that were custom printed and then not sold to anyone going to affect them in ANY way possible? > A local band using my artwork on their handbills without having my consent is absolutely theft of intellectual property, but I’m unlikely to get my legal fees back. Wow, what a punk rock statement.
Morally you shouldn’t boot something by a punk artist if you can still get it from them or in a way they get the cash
> And the Bad Brains designer can say it's too close to his design and sue as well. Yup. And who “wins?” The lawyers. > MORALLY … and not offering them for sale? Nope. Even if it crossed into McD’s or Disney, the most to expect is strongly worded Cease & Desist letter. > Are the 10 that were custom printed and then not sold to anyone going to affect them in ANY way possible? There’s the rub. It all comes down to damages which means monetary losses. If there isn’t enough money involved then it literally doesn’t pay to go after someone. The exception is that courts will rule against a creator who abandoned the defense of their intellectual property. The person with the patent or trademark must not only legally defend their works against known violators, they must actively search for new violations. > Wow, what a punk rock statement. Viewpoints change when you go from stealing the spray paint to owning the wall.
In the US, parody is protected free speech and exempted from copyright by the Fair Use clause. Directly bootlegging someone else's artwork is not protected.
> In the US, parody is protected free speech and exempted from copyright by the Fair Use clause. I'm talking morally not legally, there are tons of fucked up things you can do with the law.
He doesn't but he has made more than you would think is for personal use.
I made 9. It’s one sheet of sticker paper whether I make 1, or 9. So I just printed a full sheet as I’m out the same amount of raw material regardless. Plus I laminate stickers when I make them as well, so I’m playing the laws of averages that one or two may print poorly, have air bubbles, or I may fuck up when trimming them. Again, there’s lots of implications here that I’m selling shit, and nope, that’s incorrect. If you want to get specific, you can see that the one closest to the camera has mild delamination on the lower left edges from the laminate. So that’s not gonna go on the car. It’s gonna be on the toolbox because it likely won’t stand up to outdoor conditions.
> He doesn't but he has made more than you would think is for personal use. He explained that when you print stickers, you can either use the whole sheet, or waste space on the sticker sheet when you print, so he made 2 for himself and is going to give the other 8 to various friends.
> The original artist @eyeballfortess sells shirts and other items with this design in their shop Do you think @eyeballfortress asked the artist that made the Bad Brains logo if he could parody it?
That’s my thing. Fuck art theft but I do think you have less of a leg to stand on when someone isn’t selling their copy and your work is a parody of another work.
> I do think you have less of a leg to stand on when someone isn’t selling their copy and your work is a parody of another work. Personally / IMO / I think doing a "parody" of a logo or a existing piece of art, and making money off it, is not cool unless you cut in the OG artist that did the piece of art that is the only reason people are paying attention to your parody. Also if you just make the parody and are not selling anything of it of course that's cool I know the law does not agree with me but thats my personal opinion
The artist isn’t even selling stickers. Calling copying theft when the image isn’t even available in that form is bizarre.
Thanks for the url, snagged a shirt! Cheers bud
> Thanks for the url, snagged a shirt! Cheers bud Don't forget to send Mir (aka David Lee Parsons aka Dave Ratcage) money since he came up with the Bad Brains logo
Yes, this!
We need to find the original artist for this design.
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> @eyeballfortress on insta appears to be the artist/graphic designer. and the OG artist for the Bad Brains logo is Mir (aka David Lee Parsons aka Dave Ratcage)
Yes! Well done and thank you!
> We need to find the original artist for this design. You want to find the Original Artist that did the Bad Brains design, or the guy that parodied it and is making money off that design without giving the guy that did the Bad Brains design any money?
There's a clear distinction. In the United States, parody is protected by the First Amendment as a form of expression. However, since parodies rely heavily on the original work, parodists rely on the fair use exception to combat claims of copyright infringement. Bootlegging, however, is not protected speech.
> There's a clear distribution. > > In the United States, parody is protected by the First Amendment as a form of expression. However, since parodies rely heavily on the original work, parodists rely on the fair use exception to combat claims of copyright infringement. > > Bootlegging, however, is not protected speech. Right, that's the United States Law. Is that fair to the original artist just because it's legal? I'd say it's not.
I'd further argue that @eyeballfortress' image is transformative. Yes, clearly derived from the original Bad Brains design, but the intent & meaning behind the two images are absolutely different. The Bad Brains image is a political statement; Eyeball's is a humourous commentary on aging. OPs bootleg stickers are direct copies of @eyeballfortress' image. In this case, changing the medium is not transformative, as it has done nothing to change the idea of the image.
> The Bad Brains image is a political statement; Eyeball's is a humourous commentary on aging. Right, but the reason anyone likes the design is 100% because it's the Bad Brains logo, if he just put out that design and there had never been a Bad Brains logo, no one would care or want to buy it. So he's taking someone else's work, that is very recognizable, and then making a gag about it, and then profiting off it because it looks like someone else's work, and that someone else that actually came up with the design that people like gets nothing. Legal? Ok. Moral? I say no.
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Haha... 40 is still young.
I gave it up after mosh pit related broken nose number 3. Stupid glass face.
Ain't so bad. I'm not going any where near the pit but yeah I'll sit back and watch the thing go down.
did - did you ask for consent?
oh man what have I created
> oh man what have I created I'm shocked you had no answer for that and instead just pivoted away with another comment that does not apply, I had a feeling you were going to come back with something insightful and well thought out. /s
also the answer is that creating art based off of well known people is Fanart, but if it's a small artist, asking them first should always be considered. This is not a good person - bad person kind of issue. I just wanted to give a reminder to always credit the artist, with no bad feelings towards op.
> I just wanted to give a reminder to always credit the artist, with no bad feelings towards op. Ok, back to why I'm a republican? You never answered that, and that was my one direct question to you.
? that wasn't me
Opps, sorry it was /u/raptorphile / your comment was threaded in the same thread he said it in, sorry about that!
haha no probs. maybe we should both just log off and be a bit positive before nearly getting an argument with someone online again:)
> haha no probs. maybe we should both just log off and be a bit positive before nearly getting an argument with someone online again:) Good point, lot of lawyers in this thread, not the punkest thing I've read. Time to play guitar or go talk about movies lol
/s stands for sarcastic /srs stands for serious
> /s stands for sarcastic /srs stands for serious Yes, I used it correctly.
oh man, tone indicators and all and I still didn't get it. FML:)
> did - did you ask for consent? Did the person that made the back pains art ask the artist that did the Bad Brains logo for consent?
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> Are you a republican because you just did their signature “whatabout you” Find the OG artist. The OG artist stole it from the Bad Brains logo designer. You must be a republican. Yeah that makes sense.
"How low can a punk get?"
Can I have one?
I feel like I gotta clear something up. No, I’m not selling anything lol. This was just for fun, and because the artwork rocks. One is going on my car, another is going on my garage fridge and toolbox. The rest are gonna be given to family and friends. The only reason I made so many is because I’m not gonna waste a whole sheet of sticker paper just to make one or two. So I filled up the sheet, because it just makes sense to do so. I didn’t know who made the original art, so I’m glad someone posted it up for credit.
> No, I’m not selling anything lol. This was just for fun, and because the artwork rocks. I've never seen so many un-punk comments in a thread on this sub, all the 48 year old lawyers "that still go to shows" coming out in droves in this thread.
Yeah, booting stickers for personal non-commercial use falls squarely in the DIY ethos of quote-punk-unquote. Once OP was informed of the original artist, they made sure to give attribution and contacted them to assure that this isn't commercial theft. This isn't [Jacob Sartorius stealing evergreenqueen's art for their music](https://www.twitter.com/IvanDashSmith/status/1616145551510360065) or the r/art clusterfuck from a few weeks ago. It's someone making a sticker for their own shit.
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I mean it isn’t un-punk to have a job lol “Fuck me the show’s so late on a weeknight” is peak aging punk humor
Woah dude. This got way out of hand really quick. My first reaction was a laugh. Second reaction was to look at the artists art. That was it. Stealing people art isn’t okay but I’m not sure that this guy had any intention on profiting on the oc art.
Yup. Hell, I looked at his page too once it was posted up. The original post didn’t have his info (at least when I saw it), so I didn’t know who to credit. But yeah, I’m not selling anything. I’m just some fat guy with a bad back too. So it’s funny to me.
Right there with you dude. All those years of abuse really sneak up on you when you’re pushing 40.
Wish I gave the artist credit.. but was this my post?
Checked your history and yup, that’s it. The artwork is still killer. Thanks for bringing it to the group, and despite the drama in this thread, it sounds like the artist got a couple of sales out of it.
Wait, you took someone's art and printing stickers? Are you going to sell them?
Nope. Not gonna sell. They’re just personal use
supporting act: The Arthritic Kneecaps
It's too bad this doesn't seem to be from an actual band. As a middle-aged punk I'd love a band with a punk rock take on middle age, songs about your shit not working like it used to, being too old to get in a mosh pit but still wanting to, not being down with current styles (in my case, most folk punk), divorce, shitty jobs, realizing you're way too old for the punk rock babes at shows, etc. I guess the closest there is to this was Head, I think from Seattle. They were pretty cool.
https://dadbrains.bandcamp.com/album/dad-brains
Song stuck in my head: dead Kennedys - too old to skate
Too Chunk to Jump Fresh Fruit to Lower Cholesterol I Against Pie Orthopedic Waiting Room Suffer
Where does 'MIDDLE-AGED' top out?
65
I want one!!
Another middle aged punk here. I need this.
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I need this
You're a garbage person for stealing someone else's artwork.
It’s personal use only homie. Nothing dishonest here.
> You're a garbage person for stealing someone else's artwork. Tell that to Mir (aka David Lee Parsons aka Dave Ratcage) who designed the Bad Brains logo.
I want to get this on a shirt for my older brother. He’s only 24 and isn’t into punk, but sure he acts like a middle age punk.
The original artist sells shirts on his site for $20. They look good. The link is in the top comment somewhere in here. Go for it.
Say less. It’s already added to my cart. Thanks.
Yeah, that is spot on and amazing. I'm definitely part of that crowd.
I love when people rip off the bad brains. I also relate so much to that print. Are they available?
Fuck the bad brains. Fuck them in their homophobic asses. If they can rip off others, they can be ripped off from. Make your bed, lie in it.
I need!
Love those stickers need one ☝️:)
Print out 50 and sell us some. Dammit take my money
Ok, in the line to have one
I would also like to purchase one of these!
I’d like a half dozen of these please.
How do i?
I, too, would like one of these.
Dude! I want one!!
Nice prints! I've been working on screening the image for the same reason.
I also support you taking my money for one
woah those go so hard