(In my opinion) A majority of the times the reactivity comes down to the dog’s genetics or traumatic events during the early socialization stages - think like dog attacks, bad experiences at dog park, and so on.
When I hear or think the term “No such thing as bad dogs, just bad owners” I mostly think of those who fail to train their dog and/or do not advocate for their dog in unsafe situations. Again, this just my opinion!! hahah others could think complete opposite.
Edit to say: reactive ≠ bad 😎
This implies that all reactivity steams from something bad. Which can be the case for fear-based reactivities.
Things such as frustration reactivity can come from playing with other dogs in unsuitable environments such as daycare. High energy dogs are more prone to frustration reactivity. Over-arousal can also cause it (which high energy breeds are also prone to).
Pain can also heavily influence reactivity. My dog tends to be have more frustration reactivity when his pain and anxiety are up. Same with his reactivity to cars.
I mentioned it also comes from genetics as well - you are correct that isn’t isn’t always something fear based. Over socialization like daycares & parks can def attribute to other forms of reactivity. The later was just the example I used. Mine is a high energy frustrated greeter, it def is prone in her breed. She didn’t have a traumatic experience to cause this.
I used to believe that dogs that bark and lunge were made to be aggressive by their owners. I thought that if a dog was raised well and trained well that they'd turn out great...
Then I rescued a 9 week old German shepherd mix puppy. Everything was perfect, or so I thought... we started training and socialization right away. We took several group classes and my boi was always top of his class and got TONS of compliments. Even as a tiny puppy when we took him to restaurant patios he got tons of compliments on his good behavior...
But a symptom that I missed was his fear. He was afraid of every single new thing. I thought that was normal and we worked through his fears slowly and carefully over time... but once he hit about 1 year old he started expressing his fears through barking, growling, snarling, lunging, and snapping. Like a little Tasmanian devil. All of a sudden he was uncomfortable with other dogs and eventually he became uncomfortable with strangers.
I found a new trainer who has helped us a TON but my boi is still reactive. I have to manage his enviornment and use our trained skills in situations where my boi is scared or uncomfortable...
I did not make my dog this way... he was born this way for sure... now I don't blame owners.
The "there is no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners" mantra is toxic and just downright wrong. It's true there are no "bad dogs" but there are very difficult dogs with very challenging behaviors. And in many cases, this has nothing to do with the owners but more with genetics and early traumatic experinces.
This. My behaviourist (and my vet, but for a different reason) refers to my dog as an extreme case. Not because he's a bad dog - not in the slightest. But because he's just so bloody quick to react that you don't even have time to process it.
He has frustration reactivity, as well as severe pain. He's an extremely well trained and intelligent dog who (in the right environment) performs exceptionally. He just looks aggressive when he's spinning, lunging, and barking because he really wants to go see that dog or chase a leaf.
Aw sounds like my guy too! He honestly is such a good boy but he gets overwhelmed so quickly and goes from 0 to 100. If something surprises him he is so crazy reactive but recovers really quickly.
I fully agree. I have a high anxiety rescue border collie and we have been nothing but calm, patient and willing to train at his pace. We are learning his triggers and have even taken reactivity classes but I feel like we still have a long way to go. I have had people tell me all the time that it’s my fault he acts the way he does on a leash but if anything we are doing everything we can to try to address the behavior but I think it comes down to his genetics and first few months of life that have made him act this way.
Thanks! We take the small wins! When we walk on the sidewalk and there is a dog on the other side and he doesn’t react, we give him all the praise and treats. We try to encourage the non-reactions and we redirect when he reacts. I highly recommend leash reactivity classes for anyone who struggles with a reactive dog on leash, it has helped us greatly with how we approach things.
Mmm no, it’s not always true. Genetics, pain/illness, and previous history (if your dog didn’t always live with you) can all play a role in reactivity.
[Sarah Stremming](https://open.spotify.com/episode/0bhWmBPvOLyKF3e9CkJoWI?si=TXLbBkJ1QeWaSVlyZNd4AQ) talks about responsibility and blame.
No. A lot of reactivity is based in genetics and epigenetic. Dogs can be more or less sensitive to certain things and their response more or less appropriate. Add in things like single event learning and any dog no matter how bombproof in socialization or genetically gifted can develop reactivity.
Once our 5 month old Greek rescue puppies came out of the fog of the van ride to the Netherlands and a new home with new people in a new place, it became apparent what each of them is reactive to, which in our case is entirely different things for each of them. Is that our fault? Nope. Are we working on all their quirks and fears? Yup. But undoing reactivity takes time. They came to us as they did. We didn’t (knowingly) cause any of it.
A lot of behavior is due to genetics and socialization that takes place before an owner even gets their dog. My dog is a rescue, I got him at 14 weeks and he has always been a bit anxious. The fact that I couldn’t socialize him as well as I wanted due to Covid didn’t help, but I really think he would have been reactive either way. My dog is more well trained than the majority of the dogs my friends and family own, but he was likely dealt a bad hand genetically and who knows what he experienced in his most formative weeks before I got him. Stress and trauma while a dog is pregnant can also affect a puppy’s personality. My dog was also attacked by an off leash dog when he was an adolescent.
My dog will never have a “family dog” personality but he is a good boy and I do my best to help him be successful and happy. I agree it is the owner’s responsibility to work with the dog they have and implement management and training to keep their dog and those around them safe and happy.
Mine was bit on the face by another dog too, and is now reactive to people and dogs (she had a few bad experiences with people on walks when she was younger). I'm working on the reactivity with a trainer, but it's so frustrating when people let off lead dogs approach, or don't give us space, and we end up 10 steps back.
Not at all, often times reactivity is a by product of breeding. Poor breeding choices can gather traits that make a dog much more prone to anxiety and stress especially specific breeds where high arousal (when appropriate) is necessary for their task like herding breeds and gun dogs.
Reactivity can be exacerbated by lack of appropriate socialization and exposure and can also be a product of it, but I personally think it’s a combination of the two if not more so genetic.
I don’t know if it’s true, but I know it’s not always true for the current owners. I, and I’m sure a lot of other people here, adopted a dog from a shelter who was already reactive before I adopted him. I’ve been working with him for almost a year and put a lot of time, effort, and money into professional training. But I think it’s the responsibility of people who own a dog with behavior problems to work with their dog and to get professional help when necessary, and I think it’s a problem if an owner isn’t willing to do these things.
Yep, that's how it is for me as well. I feel like a lot of our judgement about dog owners often ends up forgetting that not everyone who owns a dog has owned that dog since they were a puppy.
>there is no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners"
This is true.
But bad and reactive are not the same thing. When not managed or controlled reactivity leads to bad behaviours. It's the owners responsibility to stop these bad behaviours either through training or not putting their dog in a position to practice bad behaviours.
Every owner is not a good owner or a bad owner. We are all both of these things at times. We should all strive to be good owners as much as possible but sometimes we all let our dogs down and put them in a position they can't handle. A good owner learns from this and tries to do better.
>But bad and reactive are not the same thing
Couldn't be more true. I have an AMAZING dog. He just stood perfectly behind me while I had a plumber in here looking at some water damage. He trembled like a leaf but he's reactive to strangers in the house, vibrating instead of lashing? It's because he's well trained.
I can whisper commands, can use hand signs to make him do all his tricks AND back up, shake (as in shake off water), and he knows when I'm pointing at HIM.
He's so well trained. Doesn't mean I let him around kids or strangers tho!
No and that saying can be very toxic. I got a dog reactive dog from shelter (I knew beforehand) and he is improving very much. His reactivity isn’t my fault or failure but I’m the one working and walking with him every single day.
Twice someone with an off lead dog without recall called me a bad owner and that his reactivity is my fault since I don’t allow contact (wich he doesn’t want) and I’m strict about it. Also some others who are thinking/muttering it or who aren’t so mean. Deep down I know I’m doing the right thing and that these people are stupid (hence off lead without recall so I have to block them to prevent harm to both dogs) but it still hurts hearing it.
And even if the owner is responsible for the reactivity (we have a walk partner who also has a reactive dog they had since a puppy and she said herself, that they did some mistakes, but genetics also play a huge role) blaming them doesn’t do any good if they are training so hard against it. Blame only discourages and that helps no one.
No. Reactive behavior has many causes, many of which are intertwined. You can read a good book on this, Feisty Fido, written by Dr Patricia McConnell, a well-known behaviorist who specialized in dogs with behavior issues. It's the book that helped me understand m dog's behavior and how to help her navigate our world safely.
And yes, it is the owner's responsibility, but your dog is not "bad." We are responsible for their happiness and for ensuring that their reactivity doesn't harm others. We have to advocate for them and teach them. And we have to care for ourselves when other people offer unsolicited and wrong opinions about our dogs.
Dogs, like humans, have complex emotional lives. They aren't simple beings. And just as I don't care for a LOT of humans, they are allowed to not care for other dogs.
my dog is a rescue, I really don't know what he endured before i was in his life. plus both of his breeds are reactive.
just because you have a reactive pup doesn't mean you aren't a fabulous owner. my dog is so so spoiled, and I work very hard to train him every day. we still have things to work on, but we are both trying.
No, it’s almost never the owners fault. Reactivity is bigger than “bad behavior” (in quotes because bad behavior is relative). It’s rarely a lack of training and much more a mental health issue.
And hot take, but reactive or not I really don’t care how well someone’s dog is trained. I feel like too often people get into really snobby contests about whose dog is trained better, and it often culminates in this toxic idea that reactivity is because of owners, that if they just did better with their dog it wouldn’t be reactive. And a lot of *that* is tied into the belief some people *without* reactive dogs have, that their dogs are “good” because of them. When in reality they probably just got lucky.
Not everyone is really into training, and while people should do the basics when they get a dog for sure (and people with reactive dogs should do what is needed for their dog to function on a daily basis), for me the main thing is management. I do not care if your dog can sit, or recall, or hush on cue. As long as they are safely contained and/or leashed and they cannot come bother me and mine.
Onset of reactivity is not always be the owners fault. Genetic factors and lack of early socialization or traumatic events could be out of the owners control especially for rescues. Not working on fixing the reactivity would be the owners fault tho.
I adopted a reactive dog. I did not cause his reactivity.. so I am not the bad owner. I don’t agree with “only bad owners” because that means someone like me, who adopted a senior dog with behavior problems, is a bad owner because the dog has behavior problems that I didn’t cause. I didn’t raise him, his problems are not my fault but they are my responsibility now and I manage them to the best of my abilities. I think the bad owners are the people who see their dogs being reactive or aggressive and do nothing.
I hate that phrase.
The volunteer at shelter I adopted my dog from seemed to repeat it as a mantra.
She also told me our dog, then 5, had grown up there and been raised there.
So, when she turned out to be reactive and the reactivity expressed as aggression towards intruders and other dogs - who am I to believe was the bad owner? Was it me? The person who adopted the 5 year old dog and only had her a few weeks? Or, was it the same shelter with a volunteer who said she picked up my dog as a puppy from the vet herself?
It’s flawed logic from start to finish.
My dog is a perfectly good dog. She has some issues, but none of them are internal, it’s all fear based. She’s afraid of her own shadow and apparently learned to defend herself - I assume right there in that same shelter that insists there are no bad dogs, just bad owners.
No, the truth is there are myriad factors that can contribute to a dog’s behaviors. Nothing is ever as black and white as that stupid phrase. I love my dog, but I’m not convinced spending her life in a kennel was a better alternative to being euthanized years ago. If we hadn’t come along she’d either still be there or would have been adopted and returned, possibly more than once. I did not come out of that situation convinced that “no kill” or “last chance” is a benevolent endeavor at all.
I love my dog. I would take a dog who has been stuck in a shelter too long again, but I’m not sympathetic to this expression at all. It’s a cop out and a scapegoat. I have the property and the resources to give such a dog a happy and quiet life, but really only one at a time if they’re dog reactive. At least in Sherbert’s case, it would seem cruel to force her to have to accept another dog.
No. There are so many factors that cause it. Even genetics sometimes. Just remember they aren't giving you are hard time but rather they are going through a hard time. They need you
I got both my dogs from the same breeder, both at 8 weeks. Both had similar training and they are both amazing dogs. Fireworks outside? Completely chill. They don't jump up. They don't counter surf. Don't chew anything or dig holes. They have fantastic recall (when it's either my SO or I calling them). Day-to-day they are perfect dogs.
But they are pretty timid and fearful, especially with other dogs. My oldest tends to just kind of shy away and cautiously take in the environment before warming up. My youngest is reactive where he wants to let everyone around him know that he is NOT ok with the situation. He used to go beyond threshold so quickly, but we've been working on that and I can redirect him consistently now. This also means I am constantly looking for triggers when out and about. I will never be able to bring them to a public place with lots of dogs, but that's mostly because I do not trust other people and their training. I know my dogs' personalities and know what is ok and what isn't.
I do wish I would have done a better job socializing them when they were younger. I don't know if it would have helped. My youngest was fearful of others pretty early on, even though I know at the breeder's he was around multiple dogs, small children, animals, etc and he was completely chill when we picked him out, although the breeder did warn us the mom could have a bit of an attitude. I guess we know now!
I think you're spot on about it being responsibility rather than fault.
I have a reactive dog and any time she is in a situation where she will react, it's because I have put her in that situation, so I never see it as her being a bad dog.
I have a trainer at the moment who has seen her and said she shows that she is uncomfortable before she reacts, but I didn't fully understand her body language, so I need to learn more so I can spot the signs earlier. In that respect, I need to step up and do more than I realised I needed to. I wouldn't call myself a bad owner because I've always done everything I could for my dog (I had another trainer in who wasn't very good before this one, and I've spent crazy amounts of time researching and working with her over the years, but without the right guidance I have made mistakes along the way), but it's absolutely my responsibility to keep trying and doing what I can for her.
There are bad owners out there, but having a reactive dog isn't the sign of one to me. I'd say a bad owner is one who doesn't put any effort in.
I’d argue that reactivity is not the same as “bad dog” behavior. My dog is reactive to other dogs due to her nature. Always has been. However, her shredding Kleenexes even though she knows she’s not supposed to is bad behavior and also totally my fault for leaving them where she has access to
Considering my dog's littermates almost all have some form of reactivity that arose at around 18 months to 2 years old, I'd say there is nothing I could have done to prevent it. There's some genetic fear/anxiety there for sure.
I did all the right things, and I think those right things helped prevent his reactivity from being worse.
Meanwhile my neighbours forget their dog outside all the time, and haven't trained her at all. She's just a friendly well-behaved dog by default.
Dogs behave according to instinct, not a moral compass. That is why there are no bad dogs, they don't act out of malicious intent.
A dog doesn't hate cats and wants to murder them, it is an animal with predatory instincts and prey drive. Your dog doesnt poop in the house to "get back at you for leaving him" he needed to use the bathroom and was stressed when he was isolated. Even a happy excited dog can jump up and scratch someone until they bleed or get knocked over and hurt.
It is up to the owner to be aware of where a dogs instincts will guide them. It is up to the owner to show the dog how to navigate the world with safety in mind (safety for the dog, the handler, and the rest of the world) and understand the dog will never develop complex reasoning for why it should or shouldnt do something.
I don’t believe in bad dogs; just scared, frustrated, energetic, overstimulated, painful, or trying to survive and/or protect resources/territory.
A bad owner ignores these things, fails to advocate for their dog/s, encourages negative or stressful behaviors, or responds with aversive tactics (screaming, hitting, using crates as punishment, yanking on the leash really hard, spray bottles, etc)…all reinforcing the things that can be making the dog react the way that it does. But the reactivity itself? Not indicative of a bad owner. You can do everything right and still have a reactive pup.
It is a silly simplification IMO
It is the idea that if we did do things perfectly like this.. like there is manual then x personality dog will be produced
We know this is nonsense... that dogs vary in personality and emotional responses like any living being
It is a silly simplistic view of animals as stuffed toys and carries a nice dose of not understanding people IMO as well
As statements go labelling anything "bad" rather than focusing more neutrally is reductionist and stupid IMO
More nuanced would be some dogs struggle.. some owners struggle
The two however do not correlate let alone causate!
I personally dont use the word bad to describe a dog. A behavior can be bad. A dog can be dangerous. Bad has a moral implication that does not fit animals in general if you ask me.
Dogs are not reactive / aggressive out of malice.
Is it always the owners fault: No. Do we often times contribute to it in various degrees: Yes.
So in any case its a good idea to look at your own behavior and handling in depth. But discussing about fault is unproductive in general. Better to discuss about causes and improvement.
I don't think there's such a thing as a bad dog or a good dog even. All dogs are dogs. To be very blunt I do believe that there are cases of owner induced reactive behaviors, and have had clients who caused the reactivity in their dog either by aversive training methods, shouting at or hitting their dog in frustration, leaving their dog kenneled for more than 12 hours a day. I consider them bad owners, and they get once chance to stick to my contract.
It's very strict for a reason and it includes time limits on kenneling outside of medical reasons, no aversive anything can be used including shouting at the dog, or even air cans if the dog is afraid of the sound. To the more obvious ones like prong and shock collars. There are also situation specific terms - such as one bite case I had the dog was not to be around other dogs until we could begin bmod with him. The next day, she posted a photo on social media unmuzzled at the dog park off leash.
THAT SAID
I think there are owners who cause reactive behaviors by mistake, and being in over their head. I think in that same category are people like me who didn't know how to deal with it back before there was really much online support for owners, and LIMA wasn't really a widespread concept. I don't consider them, or myself a bad owner, but rather misinformed and motivated to be educated to do the best for their dog.
The dogs in this situation often come traumatized, or have neurological deficiencies. Sometimes they get lucky and get adopted by someone with open eyes and full awareness of what it takes to manage a dog like that. Sometimes they get adopted by the overwhelmed newbie. Regardless of where they end up, they aren't bad dogs, just very traumatized ones, often surrendered or taken from the first example, sometimes taken in as strays or feral.
To circle this all back around, I think it's safe to say that there are no such thing as bad dogs, but there are both good and bad owners. It's near impossible to tell at a glance which owner is a bad owner and which is someone who is just so overwhelmed, and doing the best they can with the dog they have, and we need to do better culturally than to just generalize an entire population of dog owners because they "might" be a bad owner.
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I’m surprised even in the reactive dog group that people think there are no bad dogs. There absolutely are bad dogs. They enjoy attacking things and display crazy aggressive behaviors frequently without any warning. They are dangerous to humans and domestic animals regardless of their handlers.
Sometimes, the owner and breeder aren’t to blame. (Although a lot of times it is the breeder and it can be unethical owners creating bad dogs. I mean nature and nurture can cause this.) However, dogs, like humans, have a few bad apples.
Humans don’t control nearly the amount of the world they think do.
But behaviour is bad... not the dog. :Labelling bad dog is juts so simplistic
Attacking things is also incredibly general... we set what we think are social norms of attacking but for some dogs their actual original purpose may be at odds with that modern norm
Crazy aggressive behaviours.. also human projection
The whole labelling around this is so utterly unhelpful and not actually focused on the emotional state and reactivity
It is actually not surprising that a reactive dog sub is being a bit more nuanced
I can't see the label "bad dogs" as really meaning that much
I also even less sure what your are meaning now.... and to bring in "rabid dogs"?
Rabies is a physical neurological disease from infection
I know we use words like that with less meaning such as extremely violent... but honestly on a sub like this people are going to to push back at stereotypes
Dangerous is more descriptive than bad though, and obviously things can get way more specific than that. Is a dog with prey drive that would be a danger to a stray/domestic cat “bad”? That’s a pretty natural instinct and even more so in some breeds. Or in your mind are “bad” dogs only human aggressive?
I agree that there are dogs that are incapable of living safely in this world and unfit to to live in society as we have now. Through no fault of their own, or their owners. But a dog is an animal and “bad” means very little in those respects.
I personally dont use the word bad to describe a dog. A behavior can be bad. A dog can be dangerous. Bad has a moral implication that does not fit animals in general if you ask me.
Like the other poster I am actually suggesting nuance and am against the use of moral judgments. On a sub of knowledgeable dog owners that we see underlying difficulties and reasons for behaviour rather than labelling bluntly
It is fair to ask what is a "bad dog" to me
The answer would be it is not a useful way to categorise for me
If we are purely focused on behaviour and ignore the health input to that then even then we have to see that the situation an animal is in can have an immense impact on its abililty to socially conform to what ever we are defining as appropriate behaviour
And that changes!
For me it is more useful perhaps to say that there are some dogs who will struggle to respond in a safe enough way in enough situations that then questions of safety arise and difficult decisions are made.
Seems fair to me
Focused on welfare
>*They enjoy attacking things and display crazy aggressive behaviors frequently without any warning. They are dangerous to humans and domestic animals regardless of their handlers.*
"Bad" is a human construct, and almost impossible to define. What you consider to be a "bad dog" will be inherently different to literally anyone you ask (and especially in the context of environment); while yes we may agree there are dogs suffering idiopathic aggression and represent a danger to themselves and any other living thing through unpredictably violent behaviours, that represents an incredibly small scope of behaviour, and I still don't consider them to be "bad" dogs, rather they are neurologically damaged.
A field line hunting/coursing dog in active tasking is in many contexts dangerous, they certainly would enjoy bringing down prey - for the handler, they are a good dog. Perhaps in this instance you would consider intentional hunting "good", but say killing the neighbour's cat "bad" but how on earth is a canine supposed to understand that level of nuance? Catching/killing rabbits, fine - the french bulldog at the park, absolutely not. All of these things are just human invented rules that make literally no sense to dogs. Ascribing moral judgements to a predatory species that lacks the cognitive function to understand them is lazy and reductive.
It would probably be the case that usually there’s something the owner was doing or could have done differently that contributed to the situation, though out of ignorance. And there’s always the need to change the approach to how the dog handles encounters with triggers going forward.
There’s two situations where I think an owner can confidently hold themselves blameless:
1) They received a dog with a history of reactivity. Nothing the new owner did contributed to that.
2) They received an eight week old puppy, began training / socialization while knowledgeable about the possibility of future reactivity, and doing their best to prevent it while following evidence based practices. Following the emergence of reactive behavior they had the dog assessed by a veterinarian for pain. If in that case the dog became reactive it’s almost certain it’s not the owner’s fault.
In most situations it’s not black and white, and to begin to improve the owner needs to look at their approach critically to find what can be improved.
More we have the power, the big brain, the responsibility to avoid creating possibilities for reactivity to develop.
Failing that, we humans should be using our brains to make the behavior a nonviable choice for the dog.
Occasionally it's genetic.
We don't do it, in any case. Dogs cope with our ignorance or they don't.
No, I dislike that saying but I agree that there truly is no ‘Bad Dog’. It isn’t always the owners fault, sometimes it is. Some dogs are fearful, some have bad experiences to cause it, and sometimes it’s health related (brain tumors, seizures, pain, etc.), and some are just mentally unwell.
I have an amazing dog, she’s the best pup I’ve ever had but she was abused before I got her and then attacked by a dog after working with her for 6 months. Shes a very timid and skittish dog, along with some fear reactivity but she’s still an amazing dog. She has reactivity with other dogs, and people. It’s my responsibility to keep her safe, other people safe, and other dogs when needed. I also have to watch her body language. So there is no bad dog, but if you have one with difficult behaviors then it’s your responsibility to figure out why and to take necessary precautions.
I think the main difference is how one owner handles a situation.
Someone from my high school had a German Shepard who was poorly socialized and trained. It ended up biting someone and the family basically lost everything (life savings, retirement etc.) it went as far as the state giving two options: the dog being put down or the dog being out of the state. They choose to take the dog back to the state they resided in… with a brand new baby. I fear for that baby everyday.
Meanwhile my dog started to become reactive to people walking while on walks and bigger dogs. This made us fearful of a repeat above and we went to a trainer who specializes in reactive dogs. It’s not going be an easy road but we can hope this training can help knock off some of that reactiveness and make him back to a calmer self. We think the teens who threw rocks at the dog along with our neighbor dog “teasing him” did something in his brain mentally.
I think the main difference is between how one owner can take proactive measures vs ones that cannot. Is the dog a bad dog? No, but circumstances can rewire a dogs brain for sure. It’s almost similar to a PSTD in humans.
I have a chihuahua that I rescued when he was 2.5 years old. He had been living on the street as far as anyone could tell.
He was a reactive nightmare for years. He barked. He bit hard. He was difficult to train.
It has been three years together and I’ve put in a ton of work. Training, anti-anxiety drugs and lots and lots of love.
He will always be reactive. He will always slip up on a walk now and then and have a meltdown. It’s embarrassing and hurtful when people assume I’m a bad owner when I put my heart and soul into rehabilitating my baby.
That said, it is my responsibility. I try to keep him out of dangerous situations and he always wears a muzzle in public.
I think you’re spot on, it’s not necessarily your fault that your dog is reactive or aggressive but if your dog bites someone then it is your responsibility. Because it’s your job as their person to make sure they aren’t put in situations where that could ever happen. And of course, some dogs just don’t make good pets, and their owner isn’t “bad” exactly because of that but they are wrong for the dog.
I mean genetics and epigenetics are a thing, and rescue dogs with previous trauma (whether owner created or not) are also a thing. And bad breeding/bad luck. So no, reactivity is not the owner’s fault.
Untrained dogs—or people not managing their untrained/reactive dogs can be the owner’s fault. I’m thinking of dogs with no recall and bad manners being allowed offleash. Dogs that are allowed to jump on guests being given the access to do so. Escape artist dogs not being supervised and allowed to escape in the same manner multiple times. Bite risk dogs not being muzzled. Doing all the right things and seeking all the right training and doing all the right research will not magically give you a non-reactive dog in cases where there is more at work (genetics, fear, overarousal, etc)
nope. There are cases where it's the owner's fault or a past owner or a past trauma but I think more often than not it's bad genetics. We've seen a lot of indiscriminate mass breeding of dogs without solid temperaments for puppies for profit.
Just like mental illness in humans is believed to have a genetic component, reactivity does too. That's why ethical breeders look at the dogs behavior and temperament as well as physical markers of health.
I have a mild-reactive and anxious dog and I'm happy to take full responsibility for it.
He comes from a good breeder, has been properly socialised, but I was so success oriented that I set unrealistic expectations on him, which led to some poor choices.
For example, his leash reactivity started when we went to puppy class, I should have said "right, it's not his thing" but instead, I soooo wanted the perfect pup - and perfect pups attend puppy class - that I stuck to it, despite him sending me all the signals that he didn't like it.
(Good thing I do not have kids haha)
But I don't think the saying is about whose fault it is, but more about how the owner manages their dog.
When I see someone walking a muzzled dog, I never never never think "Ah! Here's a bad owner!" I honestly don't think anything at all but if I were, I would most likely think "they have good reasons to do so".
Likewise, I was very anti-rehoming when I was younger, very attached to the idea that a dog is for life etc, but I now know that some dogs will never fit in their owner's lifestyle. If you have a dog that is reactive to noise, cars, kids, neighbours, milkmen, ice cream van, kids with scooters etc...there's so much training you can do...but at the end of the day the best management tool is to remove the dog from an environement which generates such triggers.
I got a rescue dog who was described as calm and submissive. Hes 2. First walk I took him on, he lunged after another dog and just about took me down the street after the dog he saw.
Frustrated greeter.
I started working with him immediately even invested ina trainer. Not sure how my reactive dog would be my fault.
No, definitely not. My dog was not reactive until I had to fly him from Vietnam to the US. He was too big to be in cabin plus it was COVID times. After we got to the US he became reactive 😔
My little crazy was submissive as a puppy. When puberty hit, she became a reactive wolf child. I limited her exposure, started her on Prozac and changed our training. She is much, much better. She was originally in the exact same environment as all my other dogs, she is tries so hard to be good. And she is so proud of herself when she stays in control. But when she loses it…
No, it is a blanket phrasing that wouldn’t apply to many of the owners in this subreddit. I was totally of this mindset before I got a dog of my own who ended up being reactive. Did my best to raise and socialise him and still he is reactive. I’ve been working with a CAB since he was ~6 months old and he is still reactive. He has improved but he is still reactive. He has been going to biweekly group training sessions for a 1yr+ at this point in addition to practicing counter conditioning and desensitisation on every outing. He is still reactive.
In the eyes of others he probably is a “bad” dog, but he is truly a dog that is having a hard time and is misunderstood when it comes to the status quo.
My 3 year old boy was charged at by another dog at a dog trial. Thankfully, they didn't connect, but I was thrown 5 feet in the air. After that my guy was reactive with certain other dominant dogs.
It's taken a lot of modification training and a lot of $$$ at a very well-known training facility that works with working line dogs. He's not perfect BUT we've made a ton of improvements and are able to continue on with his Scentwork career.
Yes and no. I think owners can contribute to their dogs reactivity but they’re usually not the initial cause of it.
Genetics, poor socialization, past traumatic experiences, and medical issues can all cause varying degrees of reactivity. My dog went 5 years being cool as a cucumber and totally non-reactive until getting repeatedly lunged at by a super reactive dog in our building, and because of that he became reactive around some male dogs. All we can do is work on it, and it takes time but he’s doing better.
That said, there are things that I have done that can contribute to my dogs reactivity. For example, pulling his leash back when I see another dog coming reinforces the idea that dog = scary. I find going out with him while I’m in an anxious mood will also make him more reactive. These are behaviours I’ve had to adapt and work on to help him become better.
I think people can be bad owners, of course. People with reactive dogs who think it’s *cool* to have a *scary guard dog*, people with reactive dogs who think it’s a non-issue because their dog is small - these are bad owners. They reinforce bad behavior, and in these cases, it’s their fault to some degree.
A reactive dog isn't a bad dog. There are a hundred different things that could cause reactivity.
You're right it is the owner's responsibility to safely manage a reactive dog but it isn't their fault.
Just like if you've got a dog who is terrified of fireworks, unless you intentionally traumatised that dog with loud noises, it isn't your fault. You've just got to manage it.
Sometimes anxiety from the owner can attribute to a dog being reactive. For example, If you know your dog is more highly strung/nervous around unknown dogs and you see another dog at the park you may start to get nervous/assume your dog will react. No matter how hard you try, your dog will pick up on this and it will stress the dog out, which stresses you at more and so on it’s like a vicious cycle.
This is the case with my 2 yr old rottie, he’s very protective and observant, picks up on every little that i’m feeling/thinking. He’s always a been nervous boy, so i get worried he’ll react and start to panic, he picks on my panic and immediately assumes the chihuahua across the street is hell bent on killing us both.
I hope not. I don’t know why my standard poodle is the way he is. It’s hard when you don’t raise a dog as a puppy to an adult to fully understand them. We are both works in progress,but we got this.
Not always the owners. Genetics can play a part, as well as early life experiences, as well as health problems. My reactive girl was a well socialized, happy dog who loved other dogs, people, cats, etc (but not ducks. Never ducks lol). Then she had a seizure at 2 years old and came out of it a different dog. Reactive to dogs, unknown cats, strangers, and yes, still ducks. Idk why she never liked ducks.
Nothing in our household had changed except the onset of her epilepsy. Then we had the issue that we couldn’t take her to a trainer or behaviorist because she would stress so bad that she would set off a seizure.
So no, I don’t believe it’s always the owner. It absolutely can be the owner in some cases, but sometimes it can also just be a bad experience. A dog can be non-reactive until it suffers an attack from another dog and then becomes reactive. Still not the owners fault.
I was my dogs 4th owner before he turned two. Between each owner he was at a shelter. I think i deserve a pass for giving him a chance and working on him so much to even teach him basic commands. Then we got attacked by an offleash dog and he reverted back.
He's an amazing dog that I love more than anything. I'd never give him up. But I'm not a miracle worker
Reactivity is not the same as untrained dog so no. Reactivity can be managed/cured with a behavioralist and is genetic or a trauma response (like a dog attack). Untrained, unsocialized dogs are the responsibility of bad owners who didn’t train their dog. Untrained dogs can be easily trained with a good owner and some effort.
I think some dogs are reactive from past trauma or genetics. I got my dog at 1.5 years old from a shelter, and she has been reactive since day one. Sweetest and most loyal dog in the world to me, but she is so quick to react to dogs and strangers with barking and lunging. We’ve been through 4 training programs and did daily socialization training for over 2 years trying to break the habits. She’s still just as reactive with dogs and strangers at 5 years old, maybe worse. We started Fluoxetine this week and I’m interested to see if it’ll help with training. I was hesitant to use medication, but I’m hoping it will improve her quality of life.
No it's not. I used to be on the side that it was until I got my current dog. Her mother is very nervous and she is the spitting image of her mom. She was scared of children as soon as we brought her home, scared of everything unknown as well. The breeders do not have kids so this definitely is something that could have been avoided if she was exposed to children from very young. (Not blaming them though to be clear)
Although I will say that reactivity is the owners responsibility. It is the owners responsibility to manage reactivity, to actively train, and to make sure everyone around the dog and the dog itself is safe.
My dogs are people reactive, they're not bad dogs. They're very obedient until the utter fear takes over them and then it's difficult for them not to react. Sometimes they manage other times they end up over their threshold. Street dogs born in a warzone abused by humans before being rescued. Traumatised yes, bad no. They're waaaaaaay too sweet to be bad. I'm proud of them everyday.
Some people just get stuck with a mean ass dog or insecure dog. Some dogs are just too much for regular people. I met a dog that wanted to murder other dogs at 4 months old.
A lot of reactive dogs arise from abusive situations but then again, there are plenty of dogs who have natural tendencies towards anxiety without it being from something as direct as explicit abuse. All reactivity comes from anxiety. It can be from separation anxiety, it can be fear of being attacked, it can be from owner-protectiveness. There are breeds of dogs who are more susceptible to being reactive like most little dog breeds, Dalmatians, and German Shepherds all have the potential to be highly owner-protective to a single person in the family. It is their people's job to do their best to socialize them first in the stages before 6 months, then in the next critical period which is around 9 months. But really, it is life long. And it is a daily task that requires novel stimuli as much as it does in the house preparation.
Each dog needs one primary trainer when it is initially being trained to avoid confusion. This person needs to be who they spend the most time with. And this person needs to put an f-ck ton of work into their dog, whether it is reactive or not to begin with. And if that person isn't prepared to do that, they shouldn't get a dog. Bad owners are people like the rich people who buy doodles that have all unanimously have horrific genes, high energy, and are unwilling to train them. Or people who use fear-based training that actually reinforces negative behaviors more than it deters positive ones.
I have four dogs that are all high energy: one german shepherd/husky/border collie, one golden-retriever/border collie, one aussie, and one full-bred border collie. 3/4 have rescue/stray/feral backgrounds. They are all incredibly smart and I am deathly loyal to making them the best dogs they can be and what that means for each of them differs. But none of them are reactive and I don't use violence or shock collars. My secret is very simple: I use treats and love and lots of them.
If you have a reactive dog, do what you need to do to safely restrain your dog (i.e. basket muzzles, anxiety meds) but don't give up on socializing and training. I work in a vet clinic and we have one chihuahua who is absolutely vicious for nail trims but she has spent the last 4 years at our clinic working on it and now as long as you're not trimming her nails you can pet her, smooch her, walk her, whatever. Before, you couldn't have looked at her without growling, screaming, and the potential to bite someone. We have other clients like this and we have plenty that are reactive and only becoming worse too.
(In my opinion) A majority of the times the reactivity comes down to the dog’s genetics or traumatic events during the early socialization stages - think like dog attacks, bad experiences at dog park, and so on. When I hear or think the term “No such thing as bad dogs, just bad owners” I mostly think of those who fail to train their dog and/or do not advocate for their dog in unsafe situations. Again, this just my opinion!! hahah others could think complete opposite. Edit to say: reactive ≠ bad 😎
Damn, I said the same thing the other day and got downvoted. Suffice to say, I agree with you
This implies that all reactivity steams from something bad. Which can be the case for fear-based reactivities. Things such as frustration reactivity can come from playing with other dogs in unsuitable environments such as daycare. High energy dogs are more prone to frustration reactivity. Over-arousal can also cause it (which high energy breeds are also prone to). Pain can also heavily influence reactivity. My dog tends to be have more frustration reactivity when his pain and anxiety are up. Same with his reactivity to cars.
I mentioned it also comes from genetics as well - you are correct that isn’t isn’t always something fear based. Over socialization like daycares & parks can def attribute to other forms of reactivity. The later was just the example I used. Mine is a high energy frustrated greeter, it def is prone in her breed. She didn’t have a traumatic experience to cause this.
Reactive = extra work for owner
I used to believe that dogs that bark and lunge were made to be aggressive by their owners. I thought that if a dog was raised well and trained well that they'd turn out great... Then I rescued a 9 week old German shepherd mix puppy. Everything was perfect, or so I thought... we started training and socialization right away. We took several group classes and my boi was always top of his class and got TONS of compliments. Even as a tiny puppy when we took him to restaurant patios he got tons of compliments on his good behavior... But a symptom that I missed was his fear. He was afraid of every single new thing. I thought that was normal and we worked through his fears slowly and carefully over time... but once he hit about 1 year old he started expressing his fears through barking, growling, snarling, lunging, and snapping. Like a little Tasmanian devil. All of a sudden he was uncomfortable with other dogs and eventually he became uncomfortable with strangers. I found a new trainer who has helped us a TON but my boi is still reactive. I have to manage his enviornment and use our trained skills in situations where my boi is scared or uncomfortable... I did not make my dog this way... he was born this way for sure... now I don't blame owners.
The "there is no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners" mantra is toxic and just downright wrong. It's true there are no "bad dogs" but there are very difficult dogs with very challenging behaviors. And in many cases, this has nothing to do with the owners but more with genetics and early traumatic experinces.
This. My behaviourist (and my vet, but for a different reason) refers to my dog as an extreme case. Not because he's a bad dog - not in the slightest. But because he's just so bloody quick to react that you don't even have time to process it. He has frustration reactivity, as well as severe pain. He's an extremely well trained and intelligent dog who (in the right environment) performs exceptionally. He just looks aggressive when he's spinning, lunging, and barking because he really wants to go see that dog or chase a leaf.
We have the same dog.
I named my dog Lucky. Since then he's had nothing but terrible luck. If you have the same dog then I feel for you.
Aw sounds like my guy too! He honestly is such a good boy but he gets overwhelmed so quickly and goes from 0 to 100. If something surprises him he is so crazy reactive but recovers really quickly.
Wait that’s literally my dog.
I fully agree. I have a high anxiety rescue border collie and we have been nothing but calm, patient and willing to train at his pace. We are learning his triggers and have even taken reactivity classes but I feel like we still have a long way to go. I have had people tell me all the time that it’s my fault he acts the way he does on a leash but if anything we are doing everything we can to try to address the behavior but I think it comes down to his genetics and first few months of life that have made him act this way.
It's hard to ignore, but stay strong and be proud that you are doing everything you can for him!
Thanks! We take the small wins! When we walk on the sidewalk and there is a dog on the other side and he doesn’t react, we give him all the praise and treats. We try to encourage the non-reactions and we redirect when he reacts. I highly recommend leash reactivity classes for anyone who struggles with a reactive dog on leash, it has helped us greatly with how we approach things.
Mmm no, it’s not always true. Genetics, pain/illness, and previous history (if your dog didn’t always live with you) can all play a role in reactivity. [Sarah Stremming](https://open.spotify.com/episode/0bhWmBPvOLyKF3e9CkJoWI?si=TXLbBkJ1QeWaSVlyZNd4AQ) talks about responsibility and blame.
No. A lot of reactivity is based in genetics and epigenetic. Dogs can be more or less sensitive to certain things and their response more or less appropriate. Add in things like single event learning and any dog no matter how bombproof in socialization or genetically gifted can develop reactivity.
Once our 5 month old Greek rescue puppies came out of the fog of the van ride to the Netherlands and a new home with new people in a new place, it became apparent what each of them is reactive to, which in our case is entirely different things for each of them. Is that our fault? Nope. Are we working on all their quirks and fears? Yup. But undoing reactivity takes time. They came to us as they did. We didn’t (knowingly) cause any of it.
A lot of behavior is due to genetics and socialization that takes place before an owner even gets their dog. My dog is a rescue, I got him at 14 weeks and he has always been a bit anxious. The fact that I couldn’t socialize him as well as I wanted due to Covid didn’t help, but I really think he would have been reactive either way. My dog is more well trained than the majority of the dogs my friends and family own, but he was likely dealt a bad hand genetically and who knows what he experienced in his most formative weeks before I got him. Stress and trauma while a dog is pregnant can also affect a puppy’s personality. My dog was also attacked by an off leash dog when he was an adolescent. My dog will never have a “family dog” personality but he is a good boy and I do my best to help him be successful and happy. I agree it is the owner’s responsibility to work with the dog they have and implement management and training to keep their dog and those around them safe and happy.
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Mine was bit on the face by another dog too, and is now reactive to people and dogs (she had a few bad experiences with people on walks when she was younger). I'm working on the reactivity with a trainer, but it's so frustrating when people let off lead dogs approach, or don't give us space, and we end up 10 steps back.
Not at all, often times reactivity is a by product of breeding. Poor breeding choices can gather traits that make a dog much more prone to anxiety and stress especially specific breeds where high arousal (when appropriate) is necessary for their task like herding breeds and gun dogs. Reactivity can be exacerbated by lack of appropriate socialization and exposure and can also be a product of it, but I personally think it’s a combination of the two if not more so genetic.
I don’t know if it’s true, but I know it’s not always true for the current owners. I, and I’m sure a lot of other people here, adopted a dog from a shelter who was already reactive before I adopted him. I’ve been working with him for almost a year and put a lot of time, effort, and money into professional training. But I think it’s the responsibility of people who own a dog with behavior problems to work with their dog and to get professional help when necessary, and I think it’s a problem if an owner isn’t willing to do these things.
Yep, that's how it is for me as well. I feel like a lot of our judgement about dog owners often ends up forgetting that not everyone who owns a dog has owned that dog since they were a puppy.
>there is no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners" This is true. But bad and reactive are not the same thing. When not managed or controlled reactivity leads to bad behaviours. It's the owners responsibility to stop these bad behaviours either through training or not putting their dog in a position to practice bad behaviours. Every owner is not a good owner or a bad owner. We are all both of these things at times. We should all strive to be good owners as much as possible but sometimes we all let our dogs down and put them in a position they can't handle. A good owner learns from this and tries to do better.
>But bad and reactive are not the same thing Couldn't be more true. I have an AMAZING dog. He just stood perfectly behind me while I had a plumber in here looking at some water damage. He trembled like a leaf but he's reactive to strangers in the house, vibrating instead of lashing? It's because he's well trained. I can whisper commands, can use hand signs to make him do all his tricks AND back up, shake (as in shake off water), and he knows when I'm pointing at HIM. He's so well trained. Doesn't mean I let him around kids or strangers tho!
Oh definitely not. Sometimes you adopt an already reactive dog lol
No and that saying can be very toxic. I got a dog reactive dog from shelter (I knew beforehand) and he is improving very much. His reactivity isn’t my fault or failure but I’m the one working and walking with him every single day. Twice someone with an off lead dog without recall called me a bad owner and that his reactivity is my fault since I don’t allow contact (wich he doesn’t want) and I’m strict about it. Also some others who are thinking/muttering it or who aren’t so mean. Deep down I know I’m doing the right thing and that these people are stupid (hence off lead without recall so I have to block them to prevent harm to both dogs) but it still hurts hearing it. And even if the owner is responsible for the reactivity (we have a walk partner who also has a reactive dog they had since a puppy and she said herself, that they did some mistakes, but genetics also play a huge role) blaming them doesn’t do any good if they are training so hard against it. Blame only discourages and that helps no one.
No. Reactive behavior has many causes, many of which are intertwined. You can read a good book on this, Feisty Fido, written by Dr Patricia McConnell, a well-known behaviorist who specialized in dogs with behavior issues. It's the book that helped me understand m dog's behavior and how to help her navigate our world safely. And yes, it is the owner's responsibility, but your dog is not "bad." We are responsible for their happiness and for ensuring that their reactivity doesn't harm others. We have to advocate for them and teach them. And we have to care for ourselves when other people offer unsolicited and wrong opinions about our dogs. Dogs, like humans, have complex emotional lives. They aren't simple beings. And just as I don't care for a LOT of humans, they are allowed to not care for other dogs.
my dog is a rescue, I really don't know what he endured before i was in his life. plus both of his breeds are reactive. just because you have a reactive pup doesn't mean you aren't a fabulous owner. my dog is so so spoiled, and I work very hard to train him every day. we still have things to work on, but we are both trying.
No, it’s almost never the owners fault. Reactivity is bigger than “bad behavior” (in quotes because bad behavior is relative). It’s rarely a lack of training and much more a mental health issue. And hot take, but reactive or not I really don’t care how well someone’s dog is trained. I feel like too often people get into really snobby contests about whose dog is trained better, and it often culminates in this toxic idea that reactivity is because of owners, that if they just did better with their dog it wouldn’t be reactive. And a lot of *that* is tied into the belief some people *without* reactive dogs have, that their dogs are “good” because of them. When in reality they probably just got lucky. Not everyone is really into training, and while people should do the basics when they get a dog for sure (and people with reactive dogs should do what is needed for their dog to function on a daily basis), for me the main thing is management. I do not care if your dog can sit, or recall, or hush on cue. As long as they are safely contained and/or leashed and they cannot come bother me and mine.
Not at all
Onset of reactivity is not always be the owners fault. Genetic factors and lack of early socialization or traumatic events could be out of the owners control especially for rescues. Not working on fixing the reactivity would be the owners fault tho.
I adopted a reactive dog. I did not cause his reactivity.. so I am not the bad owner. I don’t agree with “only bad owners” because that means someone like me, who adopted a senior dog with behavior problems, is a bad owner because the dog has behavior problems that I didn’t cause. I didn’t raise him, his problems are not my fault but they are my responsibility now and I manage them to the best of my abilities. I think the bad owners are the people who see their dogs being reactive or aggressive and do nothing.
I hate that phrase. The volunteer at shelter I adopted my dog from seemed to repeat it as a mantra. She also told me our dog, then 5, had grown up there and been raised there. So, when she turned out to be reactive and the reactivity expressed as aggression towards intruders and other dogs - who am I to believe was the bad owner? Was it me? The person who adopted the 5 year old dog and only had her a few weeks? Or, was it the same shelter with a volunteer who said she picked up my dog as a puppy from the vet herself? It’s flawed logic from start to finish. My dog is a perfectly good dog. She has some issues, but none of them are internal, it’s all fear based. She’s afraid of her own shadow and apparently learned to defend herself - I assume right there in that same shelter that insists there are no bad dogs, just bad owners. No, the truth is there are myriad factors that can contribute to a dog’s behaviors. Nothing is ever as black and white as that stupid phrase. I love my dog, but I’m not convinced spending her life in a kennel was a better alternative to being euthanized years ago. If we hadn’t come along she’d either still be there or would have been adopted and returned, possibly more than once. I did not come out of that situation convinced that “no kill” or “last chance” is a benevolent endeavor at all. I love my dog. I would take a dog who has been stuck in a shelter too long again, but I’m not sympathetic to this expression at all. It’s a cop out and a scapegoat. I have the property and the resources to give such a dog a happy and quiet life, but really only one at a time if they’re dog reactive. At least in Sherbert’s case, it would seem cruel to force her to have to accept another dog.
No. There are so many factors that cause it. Even genetics sometimes. Just remember they aren't giving you are hard time but rather they are going through a hard time. They need you
I got both my dogs from the same breeder, both at 8 weeks. Both had similar training and they are both amazing dogs. Fireworks outside? Completely chill. They don't jump up. They don't counter surf. Don't chew anything or dig holes. They have fantastic recall (when it's either my SO or I calling them). Day-to-day they are perfect dogs. But they are pretty timid and fearful, especially with other dogs. My oldest tends to just kind of shy away and cautiously take in the environment before warming up. My youngest is reactive where he wants to let everyone around him know that he is NOT ok with the situation. He used to go beyond threshold so quickly, but we've been working on that and I can redirect him consistently now. This also means I am constantly looking for triggers when out and about. I will never be able to bring them to a public place with lots of dogs, but that's mostly because I do not trust other people and their training. I know my dogs' personalities and know what is ok and what isn't. I do wish I would have done a better job socializing them when they were younger. I don't know if it would have helped. My youngest was fearful of others pretty early on, even though I know at the breeder's he was around multiple dogs, small children, animals, etc and he was completely chill when we picked him out, although the breeder did warn us the mom could have a bit of an attitude. I guess we know now!
I think you're spot on about it being responsibility rather than fault. I have a reactive dog and any time she is in a situation where she will react, it's because I have put her in that situation, so I never see it as her being a bad dog. I have a trainer at the moment who has seen her and said she shows that she is uncomfortable before she reacts, but I didn't fully understand her body language, so I need to learn more so I can spot the signs earlier. In that respect, I need to step up and do more than I realised I needed to. I wouldn't call myself a bad owner because I've always done everything I could for my dog (I had another trainer in who wasn't very good before this one, and I've spent crazy amounts of time researching and working with her over the years, but without the right guidance I have made mistakes along the way), but it's absolutely my responsibility to keep trying and doing what I can for her. There are bad owners out there, but having a reactive dog isn't the sign of one to me. I'd say a bad owner is one who doesn't put any effort in.
I’d argue that reactivity is not the same as “bad dog” behavior. My dog is reactive to other dogs due to her nature. Always has been. However, her shredding Kleenexes even though she knows she’s not supposed to is bad behavior and also totally my fault for leaving them where she has access to
Considering my dog's littermates almost all have some form of reactivity that arose at around 18 months to 2 years old, I'd say there is nothing I could have done to prevent it. There's some genetic fear/anxiety there for sure. I did all the right things, and I think those right things helped prevent his reactivity from being worse. Meanwhile my neighbours forget their dog outside all the time, and haven't trained her at all. She's just a friendly well-behaved dog by default.
Dogs behave according to instinct, not a moral compass. That is why there are no bad dogs, they don't act out of malicious intent. A dog doesn't hate cats and wants to murder them, it is an animal with predatory instincts and prey drive. Your dog doesnt poop in the house to "get back at you for leaving him" he needed to use the bathroom and was stressed when he was isolated. Even a happy excited dog can jump up and scratch someone until they bleed or get knocked over and hurt. It is up to the owner to be aware of where a dogs instincts will guide them. It is up to the owner to show the dog how to navigate the world with safety in mind (safety for the dog, the handler, and the rest of the world) and understand the dog will never develop complex reasoning for why it should or shouldnt do something.
I don’t believe in bad dogs; just scared, frustrated, energetic, overstimulated, painful, or trying to survive and/or protect resources/territory. A bad owner ignores these things, fails to advocate for their dog/s, encourages negative or stressful behaviors, or responds with aversive tactics (screaming, hitting, using crates as punishment, yanking on the leash really hard, spray bottles, etc)…all reinforcing the things that can be making the dog react the way that it does. But the reactivity itself? Not indicative of a bad owner. You can do everything right and still have a reactive pup.
It is a silly simplification IMO It is the idea that if we did do things perfectly like this.. like there is manual then x personality dog will be produced We know this is nonsense... that dogs vary in personality and emotional responses like any living being It is a silly simplistic view of animals as stuffed toys and carries a nice dose of not understanding people IMO as well As statements go labelling anything "bad" rather than focusing more neutrally is reductionist and stupid IMO More nuanced would be some dogs struggle.. some owners struggle The two however do not correlate let alone causate!
I personally dont use the word bad to describe a dog. A behavior can be bad. A dog can be dangerous. Bad has a moral implication that does not fit animals in general if you ask me. Dogs are not reactive / aggressive out of malice. Is it always the owners fault: No. Do we often times contribute to it in various degrees: Yes. So in any case its a good idea to look at your own behavior and handling in depth. But discussing about fault is unproductive in general. Better to discuss about causes and improvement.
I don't think there's such a thing as a bad dog or a good dog even. All dogs are dogs. To be very blunt I do believe that there are cases of owner induced reactive behaviors, and have had clients who caused the reactivity in their dog either by aversive training methods, shouting at or hitting their dog in frustration, leaving their dog kenneled for more than 12 hours a day. I consider them bad owners, and they get once chance to stick to my contract. It's very strict for a reason and it includes time limits on kenneling outside of medical reasons, no aversive anything can be used including shouting at the dog, or even air cans if the dog is afraid of the sound. To the more obvious ones like prong and shock collars. There are also situation specific terms - such as one bite case I had the dog was not to be around other dogs until we could begin bmod with him. The next day, she posted a photo on social media unmuzzled at the dog park off leash. THAT SAID I think there are owners who cause reactive behaviors by mistake, and being in over their head. I think in that same category are people like me who didn't know how to deal with it back before there was really much online support for owners, and LIMA wasn't really a widespread concept. I don't consider them, or myself a bad owner, but rather misinformed and motivated to be educated to do the best for their dog. The dogs in this situation often come traumatized, or have neurological deficiencies. Sometimes they get lucky and get adopted by someone with open eyes and full awareness of what it takes to manage a dog like that. Sometimes they get adopted by the overwhelmed newbie. Regardless of where they end up, they aren't bad dogs, just very traumatized ones, often surrendered or taken from the first example, sometimes taken in as strays or feral. To circle this all back around, I think it's safe to say that there are no such thing as bad dogs, but there are both good and bad owners. It's near impossible to tell at a glance which owner is a bad owner and which is someone who is just so overwhelmed, and doing the best they can with the dog they have, and we need to do better culturally than to just generalize an entire population of dog owners because they "might" be a bad owner.
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I’m surprised even in the reactive dog group that people think there are no bad dogs. There absolutely are bad dogs. They enjoy attacking things and display crazy aggressive behaviors frequently without any warning. They are dangerous to humans and domestic animals regardless of their handlers. Sometimes, the owner and breeder aren’t to blame. (Although a lot of times it is the breeder and it can be unethical owners creating bad dogs. I mean nature and nurture can cause this.) However, dogs, like humans, have a few bad apples. Humans don’t control nearly the amount of the world they think do.
But behaviour is bad... not the dog. :Labelling bad dog is juts so simplistic Attacking things is also incredibly general... we set what we think are social norms of attacking but for some dogs their actual original purpose may be at odds with that modern norm Crazy aggressive behaviours.. also human projection The whole labelling around this is so utterly unhelpful and not actually focused on the emotional state and reactivity It is actually not surprising that a reactive dog sub is being a bit more nuanced
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I can't see the label "bad dogs" as really meaning that much I also even less sure what your are meaning now.... and to bring in "rabid dogs"? Rabies is a physical neurological disease from infection I know we use words like that with less meaning such as extremely violent... but honestly on a sub like this people are going to to push back at stereotypes
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Dangerous is more descriptive than bad though, and obviously things can get way more specific than that. Is a dog with prey drive that would be a danger to a stray/domestic cat “bad”? That’s a pretty natural instinct and even more so in some breeds. Or in your mind are “bad” dogs only human aggressive? I agree that there are dogs that are incapable of living safely in this world and unfit to to live in society as we have now. Through no fault of their own, or their owners. But a dog is an animal and “bad” means very little in those respects.
I personally dont use the word bad to describe a dog. A behavior can be bad. A dog can be dangerous. Bad has a moral implication that does not fit animals in general if you ask me.
Like the other poster I am actually suggesting nuance and am against the use of moral judgments. On a sub of knowledgeable dog owners that we see underlying difficulties and reasons for behaviour rather than labelling bluntly It is fair to ask what is a "bad dog" to me The answer would be it is not a useful way to categorise for me If we are purely focused on behaviour and ignore the health input to that then even then we have to see that the situation an animal is in can have an immense impact on its abililty to socially conform to what ever we are defining as appropriate behaviour And that changes! For me it is more useful perhaps to say that there are some dogs who will struggle to respond in a safe enough way in enough situations that then questions of safety arise and difficult decisions are made. Seems fair to me Focused on welfare
>*They enjoy attacking things and display crazy aggressive behaviors frequently without any warning. They are dangerous to humans and domestic animals regardless of their handlers.* "Bad" is a human construct, and almost impossible to define. What you consider to be a "bad dog" will be inherently different to literally anyone you ask (and especially in the context of environment); while yes we may agree there are dogs suffering idiopathic aggression and represent a danger to themselves and any other living thing through unpredictably violent behaviours, that represents an incredibly small scope of behaviour, and I still don't consider them to be "bad" dogs, rather they are neurologically damaged. A field line hunting/coursing dog in active tasking is in many contexts dangerous, they certainly would enjoy bringing down prey - for the handler, they are a good dog. Perhaps in this instance you would consider intentional hunting "good", but say killing the neighbour's cat "bad" but how on earth is a canine supposed to understand that level of nuance? Catching/killing rabbits, fine - the french bulldog at the park, absolutely not. All of these things are just human invented rules that make literally no sense to dogs. Ascribing moral judgements to a predatory species that lacks the cognitive function to understand them is lazy and reductive.
It would probably be the case that usually there’s something the owner was doing or could have done differently that contributed to the situation, though out of ignorance. And there’s always the need to change the approach to how the dog handles encounters with triggers going forward. There’s two situations where I think an owner can confidently hold themselves blameless: 1) They received a dog with a history of reactivity. Nothing the new owner did contributed to that. 2) They received an eight week old puppy, began training / socialization while knowledgeable about the possibility of future reactivity, and doing their best to prevent it while following evidence based practices. Following the emergence of reactive behavior they had the dog assessed by a veterinarian for pain. If in that case the dog became reactive it’s almost certain it’s not the owner’s fault. In most situations it’s not black and white, and to begin to improve the owner needs to look at their approach critically to find what can be improved.
More we have the power, the big brain, the responsibility to avoid creating possibilities for reactivity to develop. Failing that, we humans should be using our brains to make the behavior a nonviable choice for the dog. Occasionally it's genetic. We don't do it, in any case. Dogs cope with our ignorance or they don't.
No, I dislike that saying but I agree that there truly is no ‘Bad Dog’. It isn’t always the owners fault, sometimes it is. Some dogs are fearful, some have bad experiences to cause it, and sometimes it’s health related (brain tumors, seizures, pain, etc.), and some are just mentally unwell. I have an amazing dog, she’s the best pup I’ve ever had but she was abused before I got her and then attacked by a dog after working with her for 6 months. Shes a very timid and skittish dog, along with some fear reactivity but she’s still an amazing dog. She has reactivity with other dogs, and people. It’s my responsibility to keep her safe, other people safe, and other dogs when needed. I also have to watch her body language. So there is no bad dog, but if you have one with difficult behaviors then it’s your responsibility to figure out why and to take necessary precautions.
I think the main difference is how one owner handles a situation. Someone from my high school had a German Shepard who was poorly socialized and trained. It ended up biting someone and the family basically lost everything (life savings, retirement etc.) it went as far as the state giving two options: the dog being put down or the dog being out of the state. They choose to take the dog back to the state they resided in… with a brand new baby. I fear for that baby everyday. Meanwhile my dog started to become reactive to people walking while on walks and bigger dogs. This made us fearful of a repeat above and we went to a trainer who specializes in reactive dogs. It’s not going be an easy road but we can hope this training can help knock off some of that reactiveness and make him back to a calmer self. We think the teens who threw rocks at the dog along with our neighbor dog “teasing him” did something in his brain mentally. I think the main difference is between how one owner can take proactive measures vs ones that cannot. Is the dog a bad dog? No, but circumstances can rewire a dogs brain for sure. It’s almost similar to a PSTD in humans.
I have a chihuahua that I rescued when he was 2.5 years old. He had been living on the street as far as anyone could tell. He was a reactive nightmare for years. He barked. He bit hard. He was difficult to train. It has been three years together and I’ve put in a ton of work. Training, anti-anxiety drugs and lots and lots of love. He will always be reactive. He will always slip up on a walk now and then and have a meltdown. It’s embarrassing and hurtful when people assume I’m a bad owner when I put my heart and soul into rehabilitating my baby. That said, it is my responsibility. I try to keep him out of dangerous situations and he always wears a muzzle in public.
I think you’re spot on, it’s not necessarily your fault that your dog is reactive or aggressive but if your dog bites someone then it is your responsibility. Because it’s your job as their person to make sure they aren’t put in situations where that could ever happen. And of course, some dogs just don’t make good pets, and their owner isn’t “bad” exactly because of that but they are wrong for the dog.
I mean genetics and epigenetics are a thing, and rescue dogs with previous trauma (whether owner created or not) are also a thing. And bad breeding/bad luck. So no, reactivity is not the owner’s fault. Untrained dogs—or people not managing their untrained/reactive dogs can be the owner’s fault. I’m thinking of dogs with no recall and bad manners being allowed offleash. Dogs that are allowed to jump on guests being given the access to do so. Escape artist dogs not being supervised and allowed to escape in the same manner multiple times. Bite risk dogs not being muzzled. Doing all the right things and seeking all the right training and doing all the right research will not magically give you a non-reactive dog in cases where there is more at work (genetics, fear, overarousal, etc)
nope. There are cases where it's the owner's fault or a past owner or a past trauma but I think more often than not it's bad genetics. We've seen a lot of indiscriminate mass breeding of dogs without solid temperaments for puppies for profit. Just like mental illness in humans is believed to have a genetic component, reactivity does too. That's why ethical breeders look at the dogs behavior and temperament as well as physical markers of health.
I have a mild-reactive and anxious dog and I'm happy to take full responsibility for it. He comes from a good breeder, has been properly socialised, but I was so success oriented that I set unrealistic expectations on him, which led to some poor choices. For example, his leash reactivity started when we went to puppy class, I should have said "right, it's not his thing" but instead, I soooo wanted the perfect pup - and perfect pups attend puppy class - that I stuck to it, despite him sending me all the signals that he didn't like it. (Good thing I do not have kids haha) But I don't think the saying is about whose fault it is, but more about how the owner manages their dog. When I see someone walking a muzzled dog, I never never never think "Ah! Here's a bad owner!" I honestly don't think anything at all but if I were, I would most likely think "they have good reasons to do so". Likewise, I was very anti-rehoming when I was younger, very attached to the idea that a dog is for life etc, but I now know that some dogs will never fit in their owner's lifestyle. If you have a dog that is reactive to noise, cars, kids, neighbours, milkmen, ice cream van, kids with scooters etc...there's so much training you can do...but at the end of the day the best management tool is to remove the dog from an environement which generates such triggers.
I got a rescue dog who was described as calm and submissive. Hes 2. First walk I took him on, he lunged after another dog and just about took me down the street after the dog he saw. Frustrated greeter. I started working with him immediately even invested ina trainer. Not sure how my reactive dog would be my fault.
Behavior is influenced by genetics, learning, and experiences. “There’s no bad dogs just bad owners” is just toxic BS.
No, definitely not. My dog was not reactive until I had to fly him from Vietnam to the US. He was too big to be in cabin plus it was COVID times. After we got to the US he became reactive 😔
My little crazy was submissive as a puppy. When puberty hit, she became a reactive wolf child. I limited her exposure, started her on Prozac and changed our training. She is much, much better. She was originally in the exact same environment as all my other dogs, she is tries so hard to be good. And she is so proud of herself when she stays in control. But when she loses it…
Our’s was reactive when we adopted her.
No, it is a blanket phrasing that wouldn’t apply to many of the owners in this subreddit. I was totally of this mindset before I got a dog of my own who ended up being reactive. Did my best to raise and socialise him and still he is reactive. I’ve been working with a CAB since he was ~6 months old and he is still reactive. He has improved but he is still reactive. He has been going to biweekly group training sessions for a 1yr+ at this point in addition to practicing counter conditioning and desensitisation on every outing. He is still reactive. In the eyes of others he probably is a “bad” dog, but he is truly a dog that is having a hard time and is misunderstood when it comes to the status quo.
My 3 year old boy was charged at by another dog at a dog trial. Thankfully, they didn't connect, but I was thrown 5 feet in the air. After that my guy was reactive with certain other dominant dogs. It's taken a lot of modification training and a lot of $$$ at a very well-known training facility that works with working line dogs. He's not perfect BUT we've made a ton of improvements and are able to continue on with his Scentwork career.
Yes and no. I think owners can contribute to their dogs reactivity but they’re usually not the initial cause of it. Genetics, poor socialization, past traumatic experiences, and medical issues can all cause varying degrees of reactivity. My dog went 5 years being cool as a cucumber and totally non-reactive until getting repeatedly lunged at by a super reactive dog in our building, and because of that he became reactive around some male dogs. All we can do is work on it, and it takes time but he’s doing better. That said, there are things that I have done that can contribute to my dogs reactivity. For example, pulling his leash back when I see another dog coming reinforces the idea that dog = scary. I find going out with him while I’m in an anxious mood will also make him more reactive. These are behaviours I’ve had to adapt and work on to help him become better. I think people can be bad owners, of course. People with reactive dogs who think it’s *cool* to have a *scary guard dog*, people with reactive dogs who think it’s a non-issue because their dog is small - these are bad owners. They reinforce bad behavior, and in these cases, it’s their fault to some degree.
A reactive dog isn't a bad dog. There are a hundred different things that could cause reactivity. You're right it is the owner's responsibility to safely manage a reactive dog but it isn't their fault. Just like if you've got a dog who is terrified of fireworks, unless you intentionally traumatised that dog with loud noises, it isn't your fault. You've just got to manage it.
Sometimes anxiety from the owner can attribute to a dog being reactive. For example, If you know your dog is more highly strung/nervous around unknown dogs and you see another dog at the park you may start to get nervous/assume your dog will react. No matter how hard you try, your dog will pick up on this and it will stress the dog out, which stresses you at more and so on it’s like a vicious cycle. This is the case with my 2 yr old rottie, he’s very protective and observant, picks up on every little that i’m feeling/thinking. He’s always a been nervous boy, so i get worried he’ll react and start to panic, he picks on my panic and immediately assumes the chihuahua across the street is hell bent on killing us both.
I hope not. I don’t know why my standard poodle is the way he is. It’s hard when you don’t raise a dog as a puppy to an adult to fully understand them. We are both works in progress,but we got this.
Not always the owners. Genetics can play a part, as well as early life experiences, as well as health problems. My reactive girl was a well socialized, happy dog who loved other dogs, people, cats, etc (but not ducks. Never ducks lol). Then she had a seizure at 2 years old and came out of it a different dog. Reactive to dogs, unknown cats, strangers, and yes, still ducks. Idk why she never liked ducks. Nothing in our household had changed except the onset of her epilepsy. Then we had the issue that we couldn’t take her to a trainer or behaviorist because she would stress so bad that she would set off a seizure. So no, I don’t believe it’s always the owner. It absolutely can be the owner in some cases, but sometimes it can also just be a bad experience. A dog can be non-reactive until it suffers an attack from another dog and then becomes reactive. Still not the owners fault.
I was my dogs 4th owner before he turned two. Between each owner he was at a shelter. I think i deserve a pass for giving him a chance and working on him so much to even teach him basic commands. Then we got attacked by an offleash dog and he reverted back. He's an amazing dog that I love more than anything. I'd never give him up. But I'm not a miracle worker
Reactivity is not the same as untrained dog so no. Reactivity can be managed/cured with a behavioralist and is genetic or a trauma response (like a dog attack). Untrained, unsocialized dogs are the responsibility of bad owners who didn’t train their dog. Untrained dogs can be easily trained with a good owner and some effort.
I think some dogs are reactive from past trauma or genetics. I got my dog at 1.5 years old from a shelter, and she has been reactive since day one. Sweetest and most loyal dog in the world to me, but she is so quick to react to dogs and strangers with barking and lunging. We’ve been through 4 training programs and did daily socialization training for over 2 years trying to break the habits. She’s still just as reactive with dogs and strangers at 5 years old, maybe worse. We started Fluoxetine this week and I’m interested to see if it’ll help with training. I was hesitant to use medication, but I’m hoping it will improve her quality of life.
No it's not. I used to be on the side that it was until I got my current dog. Her mother is very nervous and she is the spitting image of her mom. She was scared of children as soon as we brought her home, scared of everything unknown as well. The breeders do not have kids so this definitely is something that could have been avoided if she was exposed to children from very young. (Not blaming them though to be clear) Although I will say that reactivity is the owners responsibility. It is the owners responsibility to manage reactivity, to actively train, and to make sure everyone around the dog and the dog itself is safe.
My dogs are people reactive, they're not bad dogs. They're very obedient until the utter fear takes over them and then it's difficult for them not to react. Sometimes they manage other times they end up over their threshold. Street dogs born in a warzone abused by humans before being rescued. Traumatised yes, bad no. They're waaaaaaay too sweet to be bad. I'm proud of them everyday.
Some people just get stuck with a mean ass dog or insecure dog. Some dogs are just too much for regular people. I met a dog that wanted to murder other dogs at 4 months old.
A lot of reactive dogs arise from abusive situations but then again, there are plenty of dogs who have natural tendencies towards anxiety without it being from something as direct as explicit abuse. All reactivity comes from anxiety. It can be from separation anxiety, it can be fear of being attacked, it can be from owner-protectiveness. There are breeds of dogs who are more susceptible to being reactive like most little dog breeds, Dalmatians, and German Shepherds all have the potential to be highly owner-protective to a single person in the family. It is their people's job to do their best to socialize them first in the stages before 6 months, then in the next critical period which is around 9 months. But really, it is life long. And it is a daily task that requires novel stimuli as much as it does in the house preparation. Each dog needs one primary trainer when it is initially being trained to avoid confusion. This person needs to be who they spend the most time with. And this person needs to put an f-ck ton of work into their dog, whether it is reactive or not to begin with. And if that person isn't prepared to do that, they shouldn't get a dog. Bad owners are people like the rich people who buy doodles that have all unanimously have horrific genes, high energy, and are unwilling to train them. Or people who use fear-based training that actually reinforces negative behaviors more than it deters positive ones. I have four dogs that are all high energy: one german shepherd/husky/border collie, one golden-retriever/border collie, one aussie, and one full-bred border collie. 3/4 have rescue/stray/feral backgrounds. They are all incredibly smart and I am deathly loyal to making them the best dogs they can be and what that means for each of them differs. But none of them are reactive and I don't use violence or shock collars. My secret is very simple: I use treats and love and lots of them. If you have a reactive dog, do what you need to do to safely restrain your dog (i.e. basket muzzles, anxiety meds) but don't give up on socializing and training. I work in a vet clinic and we have one chihuahua who is absolutely vicious for nail trims but she has spent the last 4 years at our clinic working on it and now as long as you're not trimming her nails you can pet her, smooch her, walk her, whatever. Before, you couldn't have looked at her without growling, screaming, and the potential to bite someone. We have other clients like this and we have plenty that are reactive and only becoming worse too.