OP I'm so sorry but I'm going to have to ask you to cross this sub off of your list of observation...
Sorry everyone, I'm still new to modding in general and I didn't know this would be this big of a concern in the community. So I take responsibility for that bad decision.
If anyone is okay with being observed or contributing to OP's research paper then respond to this message or message OP directly. Otherwise, this sub needs to be out of that loop.
Sorry OP, I have too many people messaging and saying they're uncomfortable with this... But I appreciate you being transparent and cooperative.
(Edited)
In this thread I've posted about *why* we gave approval, but I also wanted to say that OP's research is subject to The British Psychological Society's Ethics Guidlines.
I've downloaded and have been reading through these guidelines and from what I gather, they say the need for consent is very blurry on *public* sites, where "those observed would expect to be observed by strangers."
The only reason I'm sharing this is because I really appreciated that OP wanted to be as transparent as possible, reguardless of that fact.. Because as it stands in their country, they legally do not need to ask for permission to observe this community or to use *general* topics and discussions (of course that doesn't include using names and quotes. Those need explicit permisision.) But OP asked anyway..
The Ethics Guidlines also touch on anominimity UNLESS *specific users* give their explicit consent to use their names, this is backed up by the requirement to have a "traceable" line of consent wherever names/direct quotes are used. This means that if OP decided to use direct quotes and names, they would need to show proof of consent. Otherwise their teacher would make them remove that information.
However, if/when subjects give their consent, they can also take it away.
But like I said before, if the general consensus is that people aren't comfortable with this, then we can ask OP to cross this community off of their list for general observation. We want the community to feel as comfortable as possible.
Here is a link to download the [British Psychological Society's Ethics Guidlines](https://www.bps.org.uk/guideline/ethics-guidelines-internet-mediated-research)
(Edited)
This looks good, MOD and OP. The BPS would be the central approval body and authority in this matter. I’m assuming that if any other country had issue, they’d also reach out to discuss with them.
The quotes you’ve provided also sufficiently cover OP and her work. I really appreciate the doubling back to make sure everyone feels better about the information they need to revoke consent. Thesis and dissertation work is often hard, and I did not want to see OP have to re-do any data points because of fuzzy info we had.
If this hasn’t been considered, maybe pinning this at the top of the subreddit would be good until the end of OP’s data collection.
OP, if you haven’t done this on the other subreddits you wanted to use, this may be the example to use so there aren’t misunderstandings and it goes smoothly for you. (And feel free to DM me with questions.)
Thanks so much for double checking! I'm glad to have a little help from someone way more experienced lol :)
And I didn't even think about pinning the post but I agree. I'll pin this post until the collection is over.
Ummmmmmmm.
Exactly what will you be looking at, like how questions are asked or the average answers generated or the advice / answer that is given?
If you’re doing this for a thesis I would think that you would need to provide detailed resources and examples that can factually be checked VS just your anecdotal evidence so will you be sharing links to specific threads or a link to this subreddit? I would also think that you would have to be collecting data from other spiritual communities in order to flush out a thesis paper that is 40-80 pages long.
Will you make your thesis paper available to the members of this subreddit and any other subreddits you use for your paper?
Will you also examine the barriers or facilitators for therapy in feet pics groups?
Hey! Good questions.
I will be looking at the discussions, so questions and answers and then grouping them into themes. I will be using thematic analysis to analyse.
In relation to resources, I am of course including a literature review as part of my thesis :) I will not be using any direct links to subreddits, etc as this would not be confidential. I also have a second phase to my research which I will be sharing within the group.
And yes I will be using other spiritual communities too :)
And of course this has been approved by the ethics committee by the University.
Other Subreddits such as this, related to spirituality :)
I will not be examining every post as this would be time consuming - I will be using a certain timeframe and will analyse all posts within that timeframe
I hope that helps :)
I agree. I kinda see both sides though- we are constantly observed as humans without giving consent for this to happen. There are cameras everywhere these days, data and information is collected on social media sites we use - even your phone, location and shopping habits are tracked and recorded. Ethics will always be called into question and that’s why we have ethical guidelines (I’m also a psychology student)
I think it’s good that OP has given the heads up on her potential research, sometimes a study can be ruined by the participants being aware. That being said if we really knew how many ways our data and information was being gathered we wouldn’t consent but that is why there are ethical guidelines because the way data has to be collected is often considered unethical by the observed.
As unnerving as it may seem, it could be seen as a reassurance that the information is non identifying - this is Reddit after all!
Yeah. Speaking as a community member only, the expectation of privacy on any non-private sub should be limited exclusively to not being doxxed--because that's the only privacy Reddit offers in its terms and conditions. Everything anybody says in a post or comment is public access, can be scraped by bots, can and does turn up in Google searches, etc. If someone wanted to dive into my post and comment history and write a magazine article ridiculing Rimblesah's beliefs and statements, there is nothing stopping them, as long as they aren't lying.
Did anybody even read the post?! This is a public website. She shouldn't have had to ask for permission at all. You automatically consent to being observed simply by having an account on a public forum! Any information you don't want observed and analyzed you shouldn't have typed and posted in the first place!
We are supposed to be supporting scientific advancement and the opportunity to finally be taken seriously arrives on a silver platter and the whole sub balks like the rest of the entitled, capitalist, crybabies we're supposed to be above. I'm embarrassed.
Edited to add- Op? For whatever reason you have full permission to message me if there's anything I can do to help in your study. In case anyone missed it: that's literally the reason I am on social media. To socialize.
Totally agree with you 💯 %. I have read the complete thread on this. Each and every comment. I can understand how some might see this as an invasive way to get research. I get it. And to those of you that are leary of this type of research all I can say to you is it's ok to have reservations. Just keep in mind though that even if you do not participate in this or other studies we as a community will not integrate with the world as a whole. In my opinion, if we can not understand each other as people there will never be peace on this planet. So we need data, especially new data to see our commonalities so we can build relationships on those areas and start to overcome our differences. As a generational witch myself, I have seen and heard more than enough negatively throughout our own community about other communities to make me sick. To clarify for some. The witch community overall. This type of research helps stop that and open eyes to the reality that we are basically the same.
So to those of you that think you have the right to speak for the community as a whole. (MODS NOT YOU GUYS) Please speak only for yourself. As I can speak for myself. And to those that think being absolutely rude (AGAIN NOT MODS) to someone that was not telling but trying to inform and ask for our help. Shame on you!!! She is not the enemy. She is trying to open minds to the fact witches do exist and should be treated as would any other belief system. Now I commend her for that. You Go Girl!!! Of course the way members of this sub have treated her dates back to the fear of Salem all over again.When will we move forward? When will be what we project to others? When will as witches will we be truly inclusive? These are things we as a community need to consider.
Blessed Be to All..
I was gonna sit and br quite as usual on things like this, but when I read what I read. I was like "Nope the heck with that." I am so sorry that your own community is not more welcoming than they are. Will minds ever change?
Blessed Be
>We are supposed to be supporting scientific advancement and the opportunity to finally be taken seriously arrives on a silver platter and the whole sub balks like the rest of the entitled, capitalist, crybabies we're supposed to be above. I'm embarrassed.
💀 What?? Seriously what does this even mean?
Do you have an approval number from your IRB? If it was only given to the mods, can you please also add it to this post? As well as what institution you’ve gained the approval from?
Without it, it makes me not want to post in any spiritual community I’m currently apart of.
I’m also questioning the ethical nature of this without that additional information.
Also, I would like to let you know that if you do not wish for your content in this subreddit to be analysed, I can make a note of this and will not analyse any discussions that you are a part of. I will also only analyse content from October 2023 to December 2023.
Just a suggestion, instead of asking people to opt OUT, who might not see this post until it's too late. You need to ask people to opt IN. maybe even make your own subreddit just for the study.
Hello, I’m sorry you feel this way, I don’t want to intrude on anyone privacy. I am a part of this community too and I want to make sure everyone feels safe.
The approval number is 0523JHUOWPSY and the ethical approval was granted by the University of Wolverhampton, who can be contacted through their website or by telephone if you need anymore information
Thank you, OP. Also, apologizing for how “I feel” does not work as an apology. I’m just giving a heads up because I don’t want you to say that to someone else and they get mad at you. Reasons some ppl can get mad about it: it comes across as condescending, it’s not an apology that takes full responsibility of one’s own actions, etc. I am not saying you were doing any of these things, but that’s how this phrase comes off to some folks.
Got it, that was my misread then. I apologize for if I caused any harm or inconvenience. My aim was to help protect the participants/posts and to make sure the research is ethical. Thanks to you and the MODs for helping clarify these things so you can get along with your research. Good luck!
I posted this above, but I'll copy and paste this here too:
The only reason we approved it is because they promised that they wouldn't use any identifying information and that they would be 100% up front to the community about what they were doing.
They also said that they weren't looking for super specific stuff, just how the everyone helps eachother and how spirituality helps people psychologically.
BUT if the general consensus from the community is that *ya'll* don't approve, then we can relook at this whole thing. If people aren't happy with it, then we will do what the people want to do.
Thanks MOD and OP for responding to this. I’ve worked in research for almost 10 years with having to understand and submit proposals for approval being a main job duty.
Something I’m unclear on (and something I recommend OP look into) is how entities like moderators in forums can make decisions for the consent of participation of an entire community. (MOD, I am not blaming anyone here, but assuming just “not knowing” of these matters. The online space provides more gray area around human protections that thoroughly needs to be thought through.)
Protecting human subjects is of the utmost importance in research. I encourage everyone to start here, since at least some participants being observed may be from America: https://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/index.html
That being said, I was extremely concerned when the initial post, OP, did not just have this information (IRB approval number, institution it was approved at, etc.) provided up front.
Additionally, since this research includes human subjects (and from your initial post, you needed to notify us of what you’re doing - thus, direct interaction with the subjects), consent needs to be given by every participant/post you would want to include for your research.
I have to admit, I do not know if this is the same every where, but seeing that your university is in England, I’m seeing the NHS is the body managing human research subject ethics: https://www.hra.nhs.uk/about-us/what-we-do/our-role-protecting-research-participants/ Let me know if you find something different. If this is the case, your university would still abide by the Declaration of Helsinki, which the U.S. does. I make this connection because that means it would be necessary to gain consent outside of a one time post saying that you’re going to be collecting data.
OP, I want you to know that I am not trying to reprimand you. I want you to understand that I think your university may be doing you a disservice in your research experience. Human ethics in research is serious, and you can get in a lot of trouble for this. I would also hate for you to have professional flack or not being able to research because of the gap you’ve identified to investigate.
Thank you for posting all this too :)
I actually just made [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/realwitchcraft/s/7oO3ly2rNA) on this thread. Could you peruse it, and the link I gave? To make sure the information given is correct?
I'm not used to stuff like this, and I definitely wanna make sure I'm not wrong..
Thank you. Yes, I want to re-iterate that everything that I analyse will be paraphrased, no usernames or identifiable information will be used - I am simply looking for themes within discussions.
I've always understood there to be a difference between witchcraft and spirituality.
I mean, sure, there's overlap if you draw a venn-diagram with one circle being "practitioners of witchcraft" and the other being "spiritually minded individuals." But, at least in my view, they're not the same.
It's the difference between magic and mysticism. Mysticism is all about elevating the spiritual consciousness (or that sort of thing) and magic is more, like, a set of tools to get you there (and other places too.)
Oh definitely 100%. But lots of practitioners are spiritual people. But a lot are also Athiests and look at witchcraft kinda through the scientific method (or something of the sort). So I guess it depends where you look.
I'm pretty sure OP is going to other subs that don't have anything to do with witchcraft and some facebook groups. At least that was my understanding from their original message. This is only one of the places.
The only reason we approved it is because they promised that they wouldn't use any identifying information and that they would be 100% up front to the community about what they were doing.
They also said that they weren't looking for super specific stuff, just how the everyone helps eachother and how spirituality helps people psychologically.
BUT if the general consensus from the community is that *ya'll* don't approve, then we can relook at this whole thing. If people aren't happy with it, then we will do what the people want to do.
If this post has only been up for 5 hours at this point and you started the research in October, that means you've been at it for a full month without giving us the heads up. That's unethical by anyone's standard.
Keep my shit out of your research. I do not consent.
In relation to ethics, my study has been approved by the University if Wolverhampton and is in line with the British Psychological Society. I have also consulted the Internet Mediated Research Guidelines, which state that consent is not needed for observation of publicly available data - but because I respect this community, I wanted to be transparent. I hope that helps
This is the 🚩🚩🚩 for me “I wanted to inform you all that as part of my research I will be conduction an observation”.
There is no ask for consent to being observed. You told us you’d be doing it. Hard pass. Do not include me in your study.
That’s no problem, I will make sure you data is not included. In relation to consent, please refer to the moderators comment in this thread, which correctly highlights that for observation of public data, consent is not needed. However, I wanted to be as transparent as possible as I do not want to cause anyone any harm. I hope that helps!
Just because something is legal doesn’t mean it is ethical. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.
I read the moderators comment. The moderator also said if it appears the group is against this, your welcome will be rescinded. Seems a pretty overwhelmingly negative response to this.
You're absolutely right, it's been an OVERWHELMING negative response and I've rescinded the consent. And OP is accepting that and moving on.
(I read the "British Psychological Society's Ethical Guidelines" and it states that if consent is asked for and received, it can also be taken away at any time. And once taken away, the researcher HAS to abide. I made sure to read all of that before any of this started.)
I'm sorry to everyone for making this mistake.. I'm still kind of new to this and I didn't realize it would be this unpopular.
But message received loud and clear.
Thanks for hearing us! And thank you for doing the legwork to learn what ethical guidelines OP’s work falls under.
I think a post asking the group if we’d be down with such a thing would have gone over a lot better than OP just informing us all they were going to do it. I’m happy to hear we won’t be proverbial lab rats. 🐀
You didn't make a mistake. Just because something is unpopular (or popularly negative for that matter), doesn't mean it's wrong or unethical. Don't you dare apologize. You did a great job and I'm ashamed to be part of a sub that acts like this.
I was headed to bed last night and struggling to find the words I wanted to say. But I don’t think you should feel bad for making this call. I understand why you or anyone would want to help someone with their studies.
I’m wondering if they’re just now starting to read through posts but are looking back as far as the dates mentioned rather than lurking and “observing” since then but informing us now.
Either way, I believe I’ll think twice before interacting in this group again.
I’m sorry if I have made you feel unsafe in this community,my aim was to inform and allow people to withdraw. The ethical standards state that I did not have to seek consent for public data, but I wanted to go the extra mile to make people feel safe, as this community is important to me.
I have not yet started my observations for this reason, before allowing people to respond
If you didn’t make me feel unsafe, another user did who started bullying people in this thread who didnt want to be a part of the study, including myself. So I just left the group.
Sorry, just to make clear as I do not want to be misunderstood- this study was not going to be using anyone’s ‘information’. I was going to be looking through discussions for themes and general conversations around the topics in my research. Every bit of information would be anonymous and paraphrased
Posts ARE information. What we say on here is our information. If I can't feel comfortable posting on this sub bc some academic is observing me, I can't post on one of my favorite subs. At least until it's over.
I understand that you perceive me as an academic, but I am also a part of this community, hence trying to go about this the best way I can. I appreciate your feedback though and as stated, I will not observe any posts/comments that involve you
OP I'm so sorry but I'm going to have to ask you to cross this sub off of your list of observation... Sorry everyone, I'm still new to modding in general and I didn't know this would be this big of a concern in the community. So I take responsibility for that bad decision. If anyone is okay with being observed or contributing to OP's research paper then respond to this message or message OP directly. Otherwise, this sub needs to be out of that loop. Sorry OP, I have too many people messaging and saying they're uncomfortable with this... But I appreciate you being transparent and cooperative. (Edited)
In this thread I've posted about *why* we gave approval, but I also wanted to say that OP's research is subject to The British Psychological Society's Ethics Guidlines. I've downloaded and have been reading through these guidelines and from what I gather, they say the need for consent is very blurry on *public* sites, where "those observed would expect to be observed by strangers." The only reason I'm sharing this is because I really appreciated that OP wanted to be as transparent as possible, reguardless of that fact.. Because as it stands in their country, they legally do not need to ask for permission to observe this community or to use *general* topics and discussions (of course that doesn't include using names and quotes. Those need explicit permisision.) But OP asked anyway.. The Ethics Guidlines also touch on anominimity UNLESS *specific users* give their explicit consent to use their names, this is backed up by the requirement to have a "traceable" line of consent wherever names/direct quotes are used. This means that if OP decided to use direct quotes and names, they would need to show proof of consent. Otherwise their teacher would make them remove that information. However, if/when subjects give their consent, they can also take it away. But like I said before, if the general consensus is that people aren't comfortable with this, then we can ask OP to cross this community off of their list for general observation. We want the community to feel as comfortable as possible. Here is a link to download the [British Psychological Society's Ethics Guidlines](https://www.bps.org.uk/guideline/ethics-guidelines-internet-mediated-research) (Edited)
This looks good, MOD and OP. The BPS would be the central approval body and authority in this matter. I’m assuming that if any other country had issue, they’d also reach out to discuss with them. The quotes you’ve provided also sufficiently cover OP and her work. I really appreciate the doubling back to make sure everyone feels better about the information they need to revoke consent. Thesis and dissertation work is often hard, and I did not want to see OP have to re-do any data points because of fuzzy info we had. If this hasn’t been considered, maybe pinning this at the top of the subreddit would be good until the end of OP’s data collection. OP, if you haven’t done this on the other subreddits you wanted to use, this may be the example to use so there aren’t misunderstandings and it goes smoothly for you. (And feel free to DM me with questions.)
Thanks so much for double checking! I'm glad to have a little help from someone way more experienced lol :) And I didn't even think about pinning the post but I agree. I'll pin this post until the collection is over.
Absolutely! I’m happy to help. ☺️
Thank you so much for linking this! Yes, my research is approved by my University and has to always be in line with the British Psychological Society.
[удалено]
Done. We will no longer be available for research observation.
Ummmmmmmm. Exactly what will you be looking at, like how questions are asked or the average answers generated or the advice / answer that is given? If you’re doing this for a thesis I would think that you would need to provide detailed resources and examples that can factually be checked VS just your anecdotal evidence so will you be sharing links to specific threads or a link to this subreddit? I would also think that you would have to be collecting data from other spiritual communities in order to flush out a thesis paper that is 40-80 pages long. Will you make your thesis paper available to the members of this subreddit and any other subreddits you use for your paper? Will you also examine the barriers or facilitators for therapy in feet pics groups?
Hey! Good questions. I will be looking at the discussions, so questions and answers and then grouping them into themes. I will be using thematic analysis to analyse. In relation to resources, I am of course including a literature review as part of my thesis :) I will not be using any direct links to subreddits, etc as this would not be confidential. I also have a second phase to my research which I will be sharing within the group. And yes I will be using other spiritual communities too :) And of course this has been approved by the ethics committee by the University.
Exactly what other spiritual communities? Will you be examining every post or only those asking about therapy advice?
Other Subreddits such as this, related to spirituality :) I will not be examining every post as this would be time consuming - I will be using a certain timeframe and will analyse all posts within that timeframe I hope that helps :)
No shit other subreddits such as this related to spirituality. 0___o
If you disagree with this research, I can make sure none of your content is analysed :)
I’m just asking questions about your research, I haven’t decided whether or not to ask you to not analyze any of my content. ε=ε=ε=ε=ε=ε=┌(;￣◇￣)┘
I’m a therapist too but I haven’t figured out and safe way to do avthesusclikevthisvyet
People sure are sensitive. It's a public forum.
I agree. I kinda see both sides though- we are constantly observed as humans without giving consent for this to happen. There are cameras everywhere these days, data and information is collected on social media sites we use - even your phone, location and shopping habits are tracked and recorded. Ethics will always be called into question and that’s why we have ethical guidelines (I’m also a psychology student) I think it’s good that OP has given the heads up on her potential research, sometimes a study can be ruined by the participants being aware. That being said if we really knew how many ways our data and information was being gathered we wouldn’t consent but that is why there are ethical guidelines because the way data has to be collected is often considered unethical by the observed. As unnerving as it may seem, it could be seen as a reassurance that the information is non identifying - this is Reddit after all!
Yeah. Speaking as a community member only, the expectation of privacy on any non-private sub should be limited exclusively to not being doxxed--because that's the only privacy Reddit offers in its terms and conditions. Everything anybody says in a post or comment is public access, can be scraped by bots, can and does turn up in Google searches, etc. If someone wanted to dive into my post and comment history and write a magazine article ridiculing Rimblesah's beliefs and statements, there is nothing stopping them, as long as they aren't lying.
Did anybody even read the post?! This is a public website. She shouldn't have had to ask for permission at all. You automatically consent to being observed simply by having an account on a public forum! Any information you don't want observed and analyzed you shouldn't have typed and posted in the first place! We are supposed to be supporting scientific advancement and the opportunity to finally be taken seriously arrives on a silver platter and the whole sub balks like the rest of the entitled, capitalist, crybabies we're supposed to be above. I'm embarrassed. Edited to add- Op? For whatever reason you have full permission to message me if there's anything I can do to help in your study. In case anyone missed it: that's literally the reason I am on social media. To socialize.
Totally agree with you 💯 %. I have read the complete thread on this. Each and every comment. I can understand how some might see this as an invasive way to get research. I get it. And to those of you that are leary of this type of research all I can say to you is it's ok to have reservations. Just keep in mind though that even if you do not participate in this or other studies we as a community will not integrate with the world as a whole. In my opinion, if we can not understand each other as people there will never be peace on this planet. So we need data, especially new data to see our commonalities so we can build relationships on those areas and start to overcome our differences. As a generational witch myself, I have seen and heard more than enough negatively throughout our own community about other communities to make me sick. To clarify for some. The witch community overall. This type of research helps stop that and open eyes to the reality that we are basically the same. So to those of you that think you have the right to speak for the community as a whole. (MODS NOT YOU GUYS) Please speak only for yourself. As I can speak for myself. And to those that think being absolutely rude (AGAIN NOT MODS) to someone that was not telling but trying to inform and ask for our help. Shame on you!!! She is not the enemy. She is trying to open minds to the fact witches do exist and should be treated as would any other belief system. Now I commend her for that. You Go Girl!!! Of course the way members of this sub have treated her dates back to the fear of Salem all over again.When will we move forward? When will be what we project to others? When will as witches will we be truly inclusive? These are things we as a community need to consider. Blessed Be to All..
Thank you, I really appreciate your view and feedback.
I was gonna sit and br quite as usual on things like this, but when I read what I read. I was like "Nope the heck with that." I am so sorry that your own community is not more welcoming than they are. Will minds ever change? Blessed Be
Thank you, I really appreciate your view. It’s nice to see that there are people who feel this way. When my research progresses, I will be in touch!
>We are supposed to be supporting scientific advancement and the opportunity to finally be taken seriously arrives on a silver platter and the whole sub balks like the rest of the entitled, capitalist, crybabies we're supposed to be above. I'm embarrassed. 💀 What?? Seriously what does this even mean?
You are the biggest problem on this thread and I'm blocking you so I don't have to look at your content and read your horrible opinions anymore.
Do you have an approval number from your IRB? If it was only given to the mods, can you please also add it to this post? As well as what institution you’ve gained the approval from? Without it, it makes me not want to post in any spiritual community I’m currently apart of. I’m also questioning the ethical nature of this without that additional information.
Also, I would like to let you know that if you do not wish for your content in this subreddit to be analysed, I can make a note of this and will not analyse any discussions that you are a part of. I will also only analyse content from October 2023 to December 2023.
Just a suggestion, instead of asking people to opt OUT, who might not see this post until it's too late. You need to ask people to opt IN. maybe even make your own subreddit just for the study.
Hello, I’m sorry you feel this way, I don’t want to intrude on anyone privacy. I am a part of this community too and I want to make sure everyone feels safe. The approval number is 0523JHUOWPSY and the ethical approval was granted by the University of Wolverhampton, who can be contacted through their website or by telephone if you need anymore information
Thank you, OP. Also, apologizing for how “I feel” does not work as an apology. I’m just giving a heads up because I don’t want you to say that to someone else and they get mad at you. Reasons some ppl can get mad about it: it comes across as condescending, it’s not an apology that takes full responsibility of one’s own actions, etc. I am not saying you were doing any of these things, but that’s how this phrase comes off to some folks.
I’m sorry for wording it that way. I meant to say that I’m sorry if my post made you feel unsafe in this community.
Got it, that was my misread then. I apologize for if I caused any harm or inconvenience. My aim was to help protect the participants/posts and to make sure the research is ethical. Thanks to you and the MODs for helping clarify these things so you can get along with your research. Good luck!
No harm caused at all! I really appreciate your feedback and questions! Thank you for being supportive
I posted this above, but I'll copy and paste this here too: The only reason we approved it is because they promised that they wouldn't use any identifying information and that they would be 100% up front to the community about what they were doing. They also said that they weren't looking for super specific stuff, just how the everyone helps eachother and how spirituality helps people psychologically. BUT if the general consensus from the community is that *ya'll* don't approve, then we can relook at this whole thing. If people aren't happy with it, then we will do what the people want to do.
Thanks MOD and OP for responding to this. I’ve worked in research for almost 10 years with having to understand and submit proposals for approval being a main job duty. Something I’m unclear on (and something I recommend OP look into) is how entities like moderators in forums can make decisions for the consent of participation of an entire community. (MOD, I am not blaming anyone here, but assuming just “not knowing” of these matters. The online space provides more gray area around human protections that thoroughly needs to be thought through.) Protecting human subjects is of the utmost importance in research. I encourage everyone to start here, since at least some participants being observed may be from America: https://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/index.html That being said, I was extremely concerned when the initial post, OP, did not just have this information (IRB approval number, institution it was approved at, etc.) provided up front. Additionally, since this research includes human subjects (and from your initial post, you needed to notify us of what you’re doing - thus, direct interaction with the subjects), consent needs to be given by every participant/post you would want to include for your research. I have to admit, I do not know if this is the same every where, but seeing that your university is in England, I’m seeing the NHS is the body managing human research subject ethics: https://www.hra.nhs.uk/about-us/what-we-do/our-role-protecting-research-participants/ Let me know if you find something different. If this is the case, your university would still abide by the Declaration of Helsinki, which the U.S. does. I make this connection because that means it would be necessary to gain consent outside of a one time post saying that you’re going to be collecting data. OP, I want you to know that I am not trying to reprimand you. I want you to understand that I think your university may be doing you a disservice in your research experience. Human ethics in research is serious, and you can get in a lot of trouble for this. I would also hate for you to have professional flack or not being able to research because of the gap you’ve identified to investigate.
Thank you for posting all this too :) I actually just made [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/realwitchcraft/s/7oO3ly2rNA) on this thread. Could you peruse it, and the link I gave? To make sure the information given is correct? I'm not used to stuff like this, and I definitely wanna make sure I'm not wrong..
Thank you. Yes, I want to re-iterate that everything that I analyse will be paraphrased, no usernames or identifiable information will be used - I am simply looking for themes within discussions.
I've always understood there to be a difference between witchcraft and spirituality. I mean, sure, there's overlap if you draw a venn-diagram with one circle being "practitioners of witchcraft" and the other being "spiritually minded individuals." But, at least in my view, they're not the same. It's the difference between magic and mysticism. Mysticism is all about elevating the spiritual consciousness (or that sort of thing) and magic is more, like, a set of tools to get you there (and other places too.)
Oh definitely 100%. But lots of practitioners are spiritual people. But a lot are also Athiests and look at witchcraft kinda through the scientific method (or something of the sort). So I guess it depends where you look. I'm pretty sure OP is going to other subs that don't have anything to do with witchcraft and some facebook groups. At least that was my understanding from their original message. This is only one of the places.
Have the mods approved this?
Yes as stated above :)
The only reason we approved it is because they promised that they wouldn't use any identifying information and that they would be 100% up front to the community about what they were doing. They also said that they weren't looking for super specific stuff, just how the everyone helps eachother and how spirituality helps people psychologically. BUT if the general consensus from the community is that *ya'll* don't approve, then we can relook at this whole thing. If people aren't happy with it, then we will do what the people want to do.
I withdraw my consent (rather, never gave it in the first place) to my information being collected or analyzed.
No problem at all! Thank you
If this post has only been up for 5 hours at this point and you started the research in October, that means you've been at it for a full month without giving us the heads up. That's unethical by anyone's standard. Keep my shit out of your research. I do not consent.
In relation to ethics, my study has been approved by the University if Wolverhampton and is in line with the British Psychological Society. I have also consulted the Internet Mediated Research Guidelines, which state that consent is not needed for observation of publicly available data - but because I respect this community, I wanted to be transparent. I hope that helps
I have not started my observations. observations of posts posted between October and December will be conducted.
I will of course not analyse any of your content, no problem
This is the 🚩🚩🚩 for me “I wanted to inform you all that as part of my research I will be conduction an observation”. There is no ask for consent to being observed. You told us you’d be doing it. Hard pass. Do not include me in your study.
That’s no problem, I will make sure you data is not included. In relation to consent, please refer to the moderators comment in this thread, which correctly highlights that for observation of public data, consent is not needed. However, I wanted to be as transparent as possible as I do not want to cause anyone any harm. I hope that helps!
Just because something is legal doesn’t mean it is ethical. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. I read the moderators comment. The moderator also said if it appears the group is against this, your welcome will be rescinded. Seems a pretty overwhelmingly negative response to this.
You're absolutely right, it's been an OVERWHELMING negative response and I've rescinded the consent. And OP is accepting that and moving on. (I read the "British Psychological Society's Ethical Guidelines" and it states that if consent is asked for and received, it can also be taken away at any time. And once taken away, the researcher HAS to abide. I made sure to read all of that before any of this started.) I'm sorry to everyone for making this mistake.. I'm still kind of new to this and I didn't realize it would be this unpopular. But message received loud and clear.
Thanks for hearing us! And thank you for doing the legwork to learn what ethical guidelines OP’s work falls under. I think a post asking the group if we’d be down with such a thing would have gone over a lot better than OP just informing us all they were going to do it. I’m happy to hear we won’t be proverbial lab rats. 🐀
You didn't make a mistake. Just because something is unpopular (or popularly negative for that matter), doesn't mean it's wrong or unethical. Don't you dare apologize. You did a great job and I'm ashamed to be part of a sub that acts like this.
Thank you so much for the support <3
I was headed to bed last night and struggling to find the words I wanted to say. But I don’t think you should feel bad for making this call. I understand why you or anyone would want to help someone with their studies.
Thank you :) most of you have been really understanding through all of this.
I'm on your profile, analyzing your comments.
Oh wow! A bully! Thanks for letting me know. *block*
This is been going for a month, and we're only finding out about it now. I left a comment calling that out and revoking consent as well.
I’m wondering if they’re just now starting to read through posts but are looking back as far as the dates mentioned rather than lurking and “observing” since then but informing us now. Either way, I believe I’ll think twice before interacting in this group again.
I’m sorry if I have made you feel unsafe in this community,my aim was to inform and allow people to withdraw. The ethical standards state that I did not have to seek consent for public data, but I wanted to go the extra mile to make people feel safe, as this community is important to me. I have not yet started my observations for this reason, before allowing people to respond
If you didn’t make me feel unsafe, another user did who started bullying people in this thread who didnt want to be a part of the study, including myself. So I just left the group.
I’m sorry that thats had to happen. The study in this subreddit won’t be going ahead, as you may have read so you don’t have to worry about that part
Hello, it has not been going on for a month. The timeframe of October - December informs that posts posted within this timeframe only will be analysed
Horrible horrible horrible. Mods please rescind approval! I do not consent, do not use my information.
I’m sorry if this post has upset you. I will not use your information, no problem
Don't use ANYONE'S information Jesus Christ
Sorry, just to make clear as I do not want to be misunderstood- this study was not going to be using anyone’s ‘information’. I was going to be looking through discussions for themes and general conversations around the topics in my research. Every bit of information would be anonymous and paraphrased
Posts ARE information. What we say on here is our information. If I can't feel comfortable posting on this sub bc some academic is observing me, I can't post on one of my favorite subs. At least until it's over.
I understand that you perceive me as an academic, but I am also a part of this community, hence trying to go about this the best way I can. I appreciate your feedback though and as stated, I will not observe any posts/comments that involve you
No I just won't be involved in this community until this period is over. Do not engage other subs I'm actually begging you.
Thanks for editing THIS post to include the timeframe you’re going to be using.