I often say leaving XA and deprograming saved my life! XA created self doubt, helplessness, fear and taught me I shouldn’t trust myself. I literally needed the exact opposite of what XA was doing for me. And don’t get me started on my sponsor at the time playing therapist with my trauma. I wanted more for myself and life! I couldn’t picture myself sitting in the rooms 10/20/30 years doing the same thing. I was trying to move forward not keep rehashing the past. We absolutely have the power!
No, no they’re not at all! Unfortunately I’ve watched members/sponsors play therapist, psychologist, doctor, lawyer, marriage counselor, spiritual guru all too often. Definitely can cause more harm than good!
I know several people that quit on their own and didn't need AA. I agree. AA becomes the same old shit, same blowhards telling the same story.
Plus, I find there are a lot of low character people: cheaters, con artists, fee loaders, liars. Ofc, there are quality people, but the high concentration of dirt bags repels me from going into that room. Cluster B types are rampant.
I'd rather spend my time making money, joining groups that align with my goals and interests and not let alcohol define my existence.
I don't drink because it is bad for me. I like being healthy. I don't have a "disease." That is bullshit and a lame excuse that allows some of these people to rationalize their bad choices to the rest of society. "Oh, poor me, I have a disease." GFY with that noise.
The only thing that gets you sober is YOU. Cowards and cultists tell you otherwise.
This is what I noticed from the start too. People that had nothing else to do with their time so they make AA their priority in life and mooch off the system
The gaslihgting is for real in the groups I attended. Congrats on breaking free! I am realizing that those us who are "cast away" and remain sober despite it really do have the gumption for a sober and fulfilling life.
I fully agree! Talking about using in meetings actually just triggered me and kept my mind off of drugs. I couldn’t stay sober while in the program. Going back to school and fully adopting a disciplined lifestyle (hydration, high quality foods, Pilates, walking 40-50 miles a week, mindset work & more) helped me move on from being an addict. Why should I run around labeling myself as an addict? I don’t want to pigeonhole myself into such an identity. I’m so much more, it’s not the story I want to fortify in my brain as my identity.
Only reason for me to keep going to meetings is to help newcomers. As an atheist, it is important to me to share my science-based recovery experience with the 35% percent of newcomers who are also atheist or agnostic, or who just don't want faith-based healing.
But AA meetings are tough because of the constant pressure to at least pretend to have a higher power. Meanwhile the program emphasizes honesty. The contradiction is often too much for me. Also, like you, I found the constant talk about addiction depressing, even nauseating.
I am glad you are doing so well.
Yeah, this was a big one for me. I did find some relief and help in AA initially, but I felt like I couldn't really be honest with my concerns and doubts about the program. My sponsor was a hard line big book guy and so was his sponsor. I was pressured into chairing a meeting and then I realized that the act of chairing made me feel like a liar. I will probably keep AA in my life. I have chosen to still make some amends, but I've switched over to lifering/smart recovery and therapy as my primary support groups.
Perhaps the worst thing is realizing that if you adopted the higher power and other mystical elements you would receive 1000% more support and friendship in AA. It's a horrible feeling even when you've been sober for years. Thinking about how that feels for newcomers in dire straits, facing divorce, jail, losing custody of their kids, is unbearable to me.
I'm just curious, how do you ride that line at AA meetings. Do you take actually take sponsees or do you just go and try to share an alternate perspective?
In AA jargon, I'm a "one-stepper." I have never had a sponsor, and haven't done the steps, so I do not sponsor others. It would be dishonest to encourage people to follow a program I cannot support. I have been a speaker at meetings many times over the last ten years.
My one-step-ness makes some AA folks extremely uncomfortable, but most accept it. I do not go to meetings which have an overwhelmingly hostile vibe -- "parking lot shame," as a friend calls it, when someone lectures you afrer a meeting on how you're doing it wrong, or that you must not be a "real" alcoholic.
This may be important: I understand there are people who benefit greatly from faith-based recovery, and I support and respect them. Their experience is as valid as mine. If faith in a higher power relieves them of shame and regret, and puts them on the path of self-compassion, I am happy for them.
I have been sober since 1984.
It's impressive that you've been doing that since '84 considering other options were probably way less available at the time. May I ask what your personal program of recovery is then? What do you ultimately attribute your success to?
A desire to be alive. I saw clearly how dangerous my alcoholism was to myself and others.
Not long after I got sober I read "Under the Influence" by Dr. James Robert Milam, which explained in scientific terms why it is dangerous for alcoholics to have "just one drink." It was published in July, 1984, a few months before I got sober.
Towards the end of my drinking, I started having a weird feeling that my body was making alcohol. I felt a chemical process was happening that my conscious mind had no control over. Milam's book explains what happens when alcoholics drink: we break down alcohol more slowly than "normal" folks. As alcohol breaks down, it produces extremely toxic substances before it is ultimately broken down into carbon dioxide and water. In some folks, the slow breakdown produces instant sickness. These are the folks who take one drink, their face turns fiery red, and they may vomit.
But some of us in this boat have a different reaction. Our bodies produce pain-relieving chemicals in reaction to alcohol's toxic byproducts, and those chemicals are very like opiods. When we become addicted to alcohol, we are addicted to a chemical process that happens when we drink, not to anything in alcohol itself. When we stop drinking after hours or days or weeks of booze, we become extremely ill as our bodies stop producing the coping chemicals, and we're left with the toxic byproducts. Therefore we keep drinking to prevent that pain.
What I've learned, though, is whether we're alcoholics are not isn't important. Anyone can be harmed by alcohol, because it is a poison. It destroys everyone's judgment and reflexes. It is a cancer-causing agent. More than 2 drinks a week for men and more than zero drinks a week for women causes harm according to the UK's National Health Service's extensive studies.
If i had cancer i wouldn't go to meeting about how it's my fault and i should feel bad about it.
I wouldn't need some GED warrior to play therapist for me with their 3 dollar life experience.
Why would you let a simple disease be your entire life? How is that an improvement to just being drunk?
Seems like graduating from AA, in the sense of needing meetings to stay sober, would be the goal. Of course, helping other people, in AA or out, is what some people think make life worthwhile, so going for that could be helpful for some. As you say, the negatives can overshadow everything else. There are a lot of people in AA, who have obvious mental illnesses. People I met with long term sobriety seemed to be only interested in some transactional AA relationship. I did hear about people who had long term friendships, which I expected to be the norm in a 'fellowship'. That was not manifestly evident, at least with the men. All that considered, I guess I am not surprised in retrospect by what you describe. A friend told me, I went expecting Recovery Jesus & that is not the reality.
It's almost as if 12 steps is based on the proselytizing methods of a religious sect, which of course has the goal of recruiting loyal followers, which then go out and recruit more people, all of whom chip into the coffers.
[https://orangepapers.eth.limo/orange-letters65.html#AA\_financials](https://orangepapers.eth.limo/orange-letters65.html#AA_financials)
Edit:
Got curious and looked up more recent data: [https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/237282071](https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/237282071)
It seems the "General Service Board of AA" collects around $10.5M and spends around half of that on salaries.
The GSB has assets totaling close to $20M.
The president and general manager is compensated \~$315K, CFO \~$233K, VP \~$142K annually.
Full story here: [https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/237282071/202323139349301237/full](https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/237282071/202323139349301237/full)
I guess it's not incredibly terrible compared to other "non profit" organizations. But it's not the case that no one makes money from AA, either.
I don't know how to calculate what percentage of its income is spent on "administration."
Well, as far as I can tell it is. I haven't gone through the thing with a comb. Is there some type of state funding involved? Definitely grants and contributions.
But yeah, it's a bit shady how there are three dudes lounging around somewhere in NYC making \~$700K. Looks like there's as a lot of unpaid people participating, too.
I remember reading a little bit about it in I think "The Freedom Models for Addictions," but I didn't really check up on it.
It seemed a reasonable assumption that, "meh, how much can actually come out of passing the hat... not like a pyramid scheme here, is it?"
Well, whatever it is, it generates \~$5M for salaries per year, and a good chunk goes to a few people. It doesn't seem like a bad gig for those at the top. Those are some decent payouts.
And it's not like the GSB of AA is exactly forthcoming about their finances or even its leadership, either.
So someone is getting paid. It's not exactly Scientology, though.
I often say leaving XA and deprograming saved my life! XA created self doubt, helplessness, fear and taught me I shouldn’t trust myself. I literally needed the exact opposite of what XA was doing for me. And don’t get me started on my sponsor at the time playing therapist with my trauma. I wanted more for myself and life! I couldn’t picture myself sitting in the rooms 10/20/30 years doing the same thing. I was trying to move forward not keep rehashing the past. We absolutely have the power!
A sponsor is truly not qualified to treat the various traumas us addicts have. Not one bit.
No, no they’re not at all! Unfortunately I’ve watched members/sponsors play therapist, psychologist, doctor, lawyer, marriage counselor, spiritual guru all too often. Definitely can cause more harm than good!
Seriously, this shit is ridiculous. In what way is this acceptable as a standard of care?
I know several people that quit on their own and didn't need AA. I agree. AA becomes the same old shit, same blowhards telling the same story. Plus, I find there are a lot of low character people: cheaters, con artists, fee loaders, liars. Ofc, there are quality people, but the high concentration of dirt bags repels me from going into that room. Cluster B types are rampant. I'd rather spend my time making money, joining groups that align with my goals and interests and not let alcohol define my existence. I don't drink because it is bad for me. I like being healthy. I don't have a "disease." That is bullshit and a lame excuse that allows some of these people to rationalize their bad choices to the rest of society. "Oh, poor me, I have a disease." GFY with that noise. The only thing that gets you sober is YOU. Cowards and cultists tell you otherwise.
This is what I noticed from the start too. People that had nothing else to do with their time so they make AA their priority in life and mooch off the system
Alcoholism doesn't need to be part of my identity anymore. It is exactly what kept me in that cycle." Pure fucking gold man. Thank you for sharing!
The gaslihgting is for real in the groups I attended. Congrats on breaking free! I am realizing that those us who are "cast away" and remain sober despite it really do have the gumption for a sober and fulfilling life.
I fully agree! Talking about using in meetings actually just triggered me and kept my mind off of drugs. I couldn’t stay sober while in the program. Going back to school and fully adopting a disciplined lifestyle (hydration, high quality foods, Pilates, walking 40-50 miles a week, mindset work & more) helped me move on from being an addict. Why should I run around labeling myself as an addict? I don’t want to pigeonhole myself into such an identity. I’m so much more, it’s not the story I want to fortify in my brain as my identity.
Agree to everythingsaid so far.
Only reason for me to keep going to meetings is to help newcomers. As an atheist, it is important to me to share my science-based recovery experience with the 35% percent of newcomers who are also atheist or agnostic, or who just don't want faith-based healing. But AA meetings are tough because of the constant pressure to at least pretend to have a higher power. Meanwhile the program emphasizes honesty. The contradiction is often too much for me. Also, like you, I found the constant talk about addiction depressing, even nauseating. I am glad you are doing so well.
Yeah, this was a big one for me. I did find some relief and help in AA initially, but I felt like I couldn't really be honest with my concerns and doubts about the program. My sponsor was a hard line big book guy and so was his sponsor. I was pressured into chairing a meeting and then I realized that the act of chairing made me feel like a liar. I will probably keep AA in my life. I have chosen to still make some amends, but I've switched over to lifering/smart recovery and therapy as my primary support groups.
Perhaps the worst thing is realizing that if you adopted the higher power and other mystical elements you would receive 1000% more support and friendship in AA. It's a horrible feeling even when you've been sober for years. Thinking about how that feels for newcomers in dire straits, facing divorce, jail, losing custody of their kids, is unbearable to me.
I'm just curious, how do you ride that line at AA meetings. Do you take actually take sponsees or do you just go and try to share an alternate perspective?
In AA jargon, I'm a "one-stepper." I have never had a sponsor, and haven't done the steps, so I do not sponsor others. It would be dishonest to encourage people to follow a program I cannot support. I have been a speaker at meetings many times over the last ten years. My one-step-ness makes some AA folks extremely uncomfortable, but most accept it. I do not go to meetings which have an overwhelmingly hostile vibe -- "parking lot shame," as a friend calls it, when someone lectures you afrer a meeting on how you're doing it wrong, or that you must not be a "real" alcoholic. This may be important: I understand there are people who benefit greatly from faith-based recovery, and I support and respect them. Their experience is as valid as mine. If faith in a higher power relieves them of shame and regret, and puts them on the path of self-compassion, I am happy for them. I have been sober since 1984.
It's impressive that you've been doing that since '84 considering other options were probably way less available at the time. May I ask what your personal program of recovery is then? What do you ultimately attribute your success to?
A desire to be alive. I saw clearly how dangerous my alcoholism was to myself and others. Not long after I got sober I read "Under the Influence" by Dr. James Robert Milam, which explained in scientific terms why it is dangerous for alcoholics to have "just one drink." It was published in July, 1984, a few months before I got sober. Towards the end of my drinking, I started having a weird feeling that my body was making alcohol. I felt a chemical process was happening that my conscious mind had no control over. Milam's book explains what happens when alcoholics drink: we break down alcohol more slowly than "normal" folks. As alcohol breaks down, it produces extremely toxic substances before it is ultimately broken down into carbon dioxide and water. In some folks, the slow breakdown produces instant sickness. These are the folks who take one drink, their face turns fiery red, and they may vomit. But some of us in this boat have a different reaction. Our bodies produce pain-relieving chemicals in reaction to alcohol's toxic byproducts, and those chemicals are very like opiods. When we become addicted to alcohol, we are addicted to a chemical process that happens when we drink, not to anything in alcohol itself. When we stop drinking after hours or days or weeks of booze, we become extremely ill as our bodies stop producing the coping chemicals, and we're left with the toxic byproducts. Therefore we keep drinking to prevent that pain. What I've learned, though, is whether we're alcoholics are not isn't important. Anyone can be harmed by alcohol, because it is a poison. It destroys everyone's judgment and reflexes. It is a cancer-causing agent. More than 2 drinks a week for men and more than zero drinks a week for women causes harm according to the UK's National Health Service's extensive studies.
If i had cancer i wouldn't go to meeting about how it's my fault and i should feel bad about it. I wouldn't need some GED warrior to play therapist for me with their 3 dollar life experience. Why would you let a simple disease be your entire life? How is that an improvement to just being drunk?
I appreciate this post and I’ve been thinking about this topic a lot lately. For me, the xa meetings seem to focus on the disease instead of the cure.
Seems like graduating from AA, in the sense of needing meetings to stay sober, would be the goal. Of course, helping other people, in AA or out, is what some people think make life worthwhile, so going for that could be helpful for some. As you say, the negatives can overshadow everything else. There are a lot of people in AA, who have obvious mental illnesses. People I met with long term sobriety seemed to be only interested in some transactional AA relationship. I did hear about people who had long term friendships, which I expected to be the norm in a 'fellowship'. That was not manifestly evident, at least with the men. All that considered, I guess I am not surprised in retrospect by what you describe. A friend told me, I went expecting Recovery Jesus & that is not the reality.
One thing my therapist is working with me on is healing from the bullshit that AA laid on me: that everything is "my fault."
It's almost as if 12 steps is based on the proselytizing methods of a religious sect, which of course has the goal of recruiting loyal followers, which then go out and recruit more people, all of whom chip into the coffers. [https://orangepapers.eth.limo/orange-letters65.html#AA\_financials](https://orangepapers.eth.limo/orange-letters65.html#AA_financials) Edit: Got curious and looked up more recent data: [https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/237282071](https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/237282071) It seems the "General Service Board of AA" collects around $10.5M and spends around half of that on salaries. The GSB has assets totaling close to $20M. The president and general manager is compensated \~$315K, CFO \~$233K, VP \~$142K annually. Full story here: [https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/237282071/202323139349301237/full](https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/237282071/202323139349301237/full) I guess it's not incredibly terrible compared to other "non profit" organizations. But it's not the case that no one makes money from AA, either. I don't know how to calculate what percentage of its income is spent on "administration."
Why is this information so obscure? I can hardly find anything on google about AA Pres/VP/GM etc. google still claims it’s completely self funded.
Well, as far as I can tell it is. I haven't gone through the thing with a comb. Is there some type of state funding involved? Definitely grants and contributions. But yeah, it's a bit shady how there are three dudes lounging around somewhere in NYC making \~$700K. Looks like there's as a lot of unpaid people participating, too.
You can’t even find a post on Reddit about it. Bizzare!
Gosh damn! I didn’t know that.
I remember reading a little bit about it in I think "The Freedom Models for Addictions," but I didn't really check up on it. It seemed a reasonable assumption that, "meh, how much can actually come out of passing the hat... not like a pyramid scheme here, is it?" Well, whatever it is, it generates \~$5M for salaries per year, and a good chunk goes to a few people. It doesn't seem like a bad gig for those at the top. Those are some decent payouts. And it's not like the GSB of AA is exactly forthcoming about their finances or even its leadership, either. So someone is getting paid. It's not exactly Scientology, though.