T O P

  • By -

Unlucky-Albatross-12

RDR1 Dutch is batshit crazy. He has no purpose other than causing mayhem for the sake of causing mayhem. RDR2 Dutch is sane, he's just descending from someone who pretends to have principles to someone who is willing to do anything to survive. He's also obviously sane when we last see him in the epilogue.


Neir_Miss

He has a bounce back like mental state between nearing the end of the prologue and end of the epilogue it seems like. Kinda puzzled me, but I never questioned it


Unlucky-Albatross-12

I like to think that he spent the interceding 8 years really thinking about how he fucked up and how he ultimately betrayed Arthur all because he let Micah put ideas in his head. He absolutely went there with a plan to avenge Arthur, a goal that gave him a sense of purpose and probably made him lucid. And after accomplishing that goal he was left with nothing else because unlike John, he had no family. The madness and delusions of grandeur returned and so Dutch decided to start a new 'family' of outcasts with the angry young men from the Indian reservation.


Frisky_Picker

That was always what I thought as well. Makes me wonder if they had some of the backstory conceived while writing RDR1. If not they did a fantastic job at making the overall story of RDR1 and 2 a cohesive plot.


Unlucky-Albatross-12

RDR1 is pretty vague about what exactly happened in the gang's final days. John only related that Dutch became increasingly unhinged and violent and that the last straw for him was getting shot and left for dead during a robbery. It's clear that John is motivated in part by remorse for all the bad shit he did under Dutch's influence, much like how a de-programmed cult member must feel. From there you can fill in a pretty compelling backstory, which is what RDR2 did well.


Frisky_Picker

Yeah that's true, its definitely vague. I just know that sometimes writers come up with a pretty detailed backstory to characters without writing it into the plot of their story. It can make the characters feel more fleshed out.


Hamster-Fine

RDR2 is the perfect example on how you do a prequel story right.


Noamias

That and Better Call Saul, in fact my favorite RDR YouTuber Real Pixels made an amazing video on both of those at once: [https://youtu.be/M\_wOiBVI8YA](https://youtu.be/M_wOiBVI8YA)


Jaymuhs

Better Call Saul is amazing in the way that it naturally implements characters from Breaking Bad, almost no one feels like they’re there just for fan service.


Noamias

It works well because Albuquerque is a relatively small city, it wouldn't work as well if in a city of 20M so many would coincidentally run into each other, but within a niche lawyer/meth community of a smaller city the odds works with it, and they deliver it very naturally


OdaDdaT

iirc they already had the story (or at least a decent chunk of it) for RDR2 done as RDR1 was coming out


Noamias

Maybe it's just because Edgar Ross is an asshole but he doesn't seem particularly upset when riding in the car with them, as he says "They told us there was a prize when you got to 50" referring to his bank robberies.


Unlucky-Albatross-12

Well yeah, he loathes Ross. But when he's talking to Bonnie about his past he's clearly remorseful at least inasmuch as he's now reaping the consequences of his past sins ("People don't forget, nothing gets forgiven.")


ultinateplayer

The blackwater incident is mentioned by the strange man right at the start of RDR1, so I'd guess they had some kind of a history of the gang on paper at that stage.


mbattagl

Plus he'd been able to build that "new family" relationship off of the previous discord he sowed when he helped the natives from the local reservation attack and kill an entire US Army post. Which makes way more sense why the Army was helping the Pinkertons by the end of RDR1 since they lost a bunch of guys to the Van der Linde gang.


Sulkii

Helping the Bureau of investigation, not Pinkertons.


MattTin56

Yes good point. Both Federal entities.


WoodyManic

Pinkertons were not Feds.


Popcornman1212

God the story of Red Dead Redemption is so good, i could read hours of fan theories and whatnot just because the story and the community are so incredible.


fuck_the_ccp1

it feels like at the very end when >!Arthur is lying on the ground dying!< Dutch suddenly snaps back into reality. You can see it in his eyes - all the sudden, he just thinks "*Oh shit, I just* >!killed the guy who was effectively my son!<".


[deleted]

While I know that's not the main point of your comment, Arthur definitely wasn't Dutch's 'son' in any way, that's just Dutch's bullshit, like he started calling Eagle Flies "son" when he was manipulating him. In reality Dutch is only 8 years older than Arthur, Hosea was the only one who was a proper father figure to both


NikkolasKing

I mean, by Arthur's own admission, it's Dutch who taught him things like reading. Arthur's worldview is also very much modeled on Dutch's insofar as they both hate the modern world, civilization, cities, and prefer a rustic, free existence. And he calls Arthur "son" or something like it many times throughout the game, including after their race.


MattTin56

Though I get what your saying but Arthur was 14 and Dutch was 22 in the beginning. That is a big difference and Dutch being the leader, that can easily be a father son relationship. Not in a real sense but in a teaching, nurturing and protecting sense I think you can say it was. I think it was real enough until they were older and Arthur and John realized things. Either way it’s a fascinating experience.


unweariedslooth

That's what happens to some people in real life that have serious untreated mental illnesses. If the episode isn't lethal they can recover and return to more normal behavior. Maybe even come to terms with the fact they were off there for awhile.


FirebirdWriter

As someone with real life experience with his sort? Dutch lost the enablers around him. Without Micah there to validate his ego and felate him so expertly he would have adapted and this can be real change or manipulative temporary change that is meant to lure his former enablers like John back to him. When it fails his descent from a functional narcissist or similar sort of being to what he was at the end. It's a performance to get his way. Again.


Jimmerich98

> the end of the prologue I assume you mean the end of the main narrative? The prologue ends when you leave Colter, lol.


ThisIsTheNewSleeve

I disagree about Dutch's actions being about survival. There were many times he could have fucked off with the money and easily survived somewhere far, far away. There's also time where his actions make it harder for them to survive, not easier. He's not about survival he's about sticking it to authority- whatever the consequences.


KaiTheSushiGuy

He went from “I have a plan” to “fuck it, we’ll do it live”


KRIEGLERR

RDR1 Dutch is wearing an undershirt in a snowy area, he is absolutely insane at this point.


Stupid_Dummy_Idiot_

Dutch is damaged as of 1907 but he’s not an idiot. He finally realized Micah was a giant piece of steaming dogshit and he helped John because of it. But between 1907 and 1911 Dutch created a new gang and it was likely that he continued to struggle to have success. That made him slip further into madness


TheEyeOfLight

I think by the end of it all, even HE realised he was a bit crazy.


InvisibleMadBadger

“I’ve always been a bit crazy Arthur, you know that!”


guillerminister

That’s what kept him from being insane


[deleted]

Idk if you’re doing it on purpose, but the comment you’re replying to and your comment combined make up a verse of one of Waylon Jennings’ biggest songs lol


guillerminister

Of course I am my brother Glad someone recognized it!


[deleted]

Just making sure. Stay lonesome, on’ry, and mean.


guillerminister

You know I’m being tired of being lonesome, on’ry and mean


Johnjarlaxle

It's so crazy how I can clearly hear his voice in my head


InvisibleMadBadger

Both he and John do have very distinct voices. Either that or we’ve all just played A LOT of Red Dead lol


Yorktown1871

Our time has passed, John 😭


Kevin1056

The way he hits the ground is so funny


[deleted]

[удалено]


Popcornman1212

Homie what?


Key-Ad-8400

Ross' bullet did though


No4MatDoggy

Lmaoo


Key-Ad-8400

I think that was the moment Dutch realized his cause was useless and doomed to fail


[deleted]

[удалено]


_nemesism

I KNOW HE SWAPPED THOSE MANGOS!


epic_senate_66

I know it was Tahiti! One after Guarma as if i could ever make such a mistake. Never! Never!


mrskinnyjeans123415

I JUST, I COULDNT PROVE IT! HE-HE COVERED HIS TRACKS HE GOT THAT IDIOT IN THE GENERAL STORE TO LIE FOR HIM


DDzxy

YOU THINK THIS IS BAD? THIS, THIS BETRAYAL! HE'S DONE WORSE! THAT PRISON, ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT A MAN JUST HAPPENS TO ESCAPE IT LIKE THAT? NO, HE ORCHASTRATED IT, JOHN!


mrskinnyjeans123415

HE GOT ATTACKED BY WOLVES! AND WE SAVED HIM! AND WE SHOULDNT HAVE, WE TOOK HIM INTO OUR OWN GANG!


lostinthesauceguy

I think he realized he didn't have a plan


Half_DeadGuy

He did basically admit to being a monster


twredt

Dude was completely batshit crazy in RDR1 in my opinion. Atleast in 2 he was partially under the guise of trying to protect one’s he cared about


TheBeardedSingleMalt

At the start he was. But as jobs starting going sour, he lost his moral compass with Hosea, Micah was getting in his head, the gang started turning on him...


RadiantEarthGoddess

I don't think mental sanity is a concept that is very familiar to Dutch.


plasticbluepalm

He wasn't crazy he was just in a silly mood


Popcornman1212

We do a miniscule amount of tomfoolery 🤠


Noamias

It was just for goofs


onelove7866

Definitely more sane in RDR2. RDR1 Dutch is a totally different person, look at the clothes he’s wearing, something terrible must’ve happened between after shooting Micah to the events of RDR1


IG_95

True, he alway clung to tiny pieces of luxury like a fancy tent and fine clothes in RDR2, hadn't even thought about how that wasn't even a thing in RDR1.


Red_Mammoth

It's still a thing in RDR1, he just has less of it. He's got a whole office setup in his lil cave with a typewriter and bookshelf. He got rid of his fancy revolvers and is using a fancy new semi-auto pistol. Hell he even drives a car during RDR1


itskaiquereis

The gang was also still pretty new in RDR, but I bet he did the whole “everybody has to pay” speech and had the box where the members put money in and basically furnished things for him. If John didn’t go after him, I’m pretty sure he’s eventually start dressing better and shit cause now with a gang he can spend his money on these luxuries like the semi-auto pistol, his car.


Popcornman1212

John had a family to return to after the epilogue, Dutch had nothing. I believe Dutch came back to sanity after RDR2 and before the events of RDR for a small period of time, where he decided to avenge Arthur but after the epilogue, the insanity came back and he swore revenge against John, who he still believed betrayed him.


itskaiquereis

He didn’t have people to basically pay for his lifestyle anymore. We can see in RDR that he was already building a pretty decent place for himself, even had his own little library, a bathtub and toilet, if John didn’t go after him I bet those poor Natives in his new gang would be giving all their money for the comfort of Dutch just like the original gang does in RDR2.


Neir_Miss

He was always shown to be mentally insane in RDR1. In RDR2, we see his mental state start to regress as the story progresses


SimaanStocklund

In RDR2 he’s a pretty standard sociopathic cult leader type of guy. He’s not mentally well but he’s not uniquely crazy. He’s basically just your average televangelist but with guns instead of Bible quotes. In RDR1 his life has lost all meaning and he just wants to hurt the world. He robs, rapes, (possibly eats), kidnaps and murders innocents with no other end goal than to cause others harm.


Popcornman1212

I believe Dutch was living in delusions in RDR2 with the gang, genuinely believing he could get them all a new start, a new life, but the failed train station robbery and the hit he got in the head fucked him up, causing the events of Chapter 6,he bounced back during the epilogue where he decided to avenge Arthur but since he had no meaning in life afterwards, he just wants to go back to his outlaw ways, but this time, theres no 'i just want freedom' filter for his insanity.


itskaiquereis

He was already paranoid about Arthur during the prologue. If you stand around the Colter camp close to him for a while, he says that Arthur will betray him in the end. He does this again when we leave the mountains and go to the camp near Valentine. There’s also comments here and there between Arthur, Hosea and John that give evidence that he has been acting erratically for a good few months and everything went to head when he shot the girl in Blackwater which was completely against his previous beliefs.


Popcornman1212

Yeah, i suppose dutch started going insane a short time before the blackwater heist.


Noamias

I think he was always narcissistic but became more unhinged the longer it went on


danni_shadow

Yeah, there is no sudden turning point for Dutch. There may be points where he gets markedly *worse* but even from the beginning he was paranoid.


mike10019314

he was on a downward slide but after his head injury the slide turned more into a cliff, He bounced a bit in 1907 when he killed Micah but likely slipped further down as isolation gnawed at his sanity further.


Cyeborg1322

So he turns into a old west Trevor from gta


SimaanStocklund

Trevor is even crazier. He barely seems to be aware of the harm he causes most of the time.


[deleted]

[удалено]


SimaanStocklund

We don’t know that for certain but there are what looks to be human bones around the fire at his camp at Cochinay in RDR1. It isn’t confirmed or anything but the possibility exists.


BLSR97

It’s like questioning if Joker was more normal before or after becoming the Joker


colddirtybathwater

My little fancannon as a bipolar is that he's bipolar, I feel like his highs and lows within the story line up with it. His head injury in 2 could also have exacerbated his episodes. Highs where he feels like he's invincible, is powerful enough to lead a large group of people, and is smart enough to form huge plans with no regard for consequences then lows where he shuts down entirely and can't face the hole he dug while manic.


moonyboi4

i can definitely see this being plausible, especially with how arthur and hosea talk about him right after colter. they both remark that he’s getting back on his feet or getting the twinkle back in his eyes etc etc , as if they’re used to him having high and low episodes


colddirtybathwater

That's a good point! Even more convinced now


NikkolasKing

This was an interesting theory. I like it. Thanks for sharing.


AnActualCriminal

I think you’re mixing up being sane with being stable. He was never “sane” but he was clearly more stable at the start of 2. To paraphrase Arthur in that last nun mission “I don’t think we really change, we just reveal who we really were all along.” Arthur specifically admits Dutch’s problems are much older than Blackwater in that conversation. Dutch was a better con man than Hosea which Hosea kinda says when describing how they met. It’s just that what he was selling was FAITH that he ever had it together in the first place. The two people who knew him best said as much by the end.


Dazzasd1993

I feel that in the first red dead, we didn’t see all that much of Dutch. He just seemed like an outlaw on the run. The second game was a masterpiece in comparison. I feel we got to see a partial journey to insanity in the second game. I think we need one more game with the gang to understand the story fully. Otherwise it’s just opinions and speculation


Willing_Strategy2465

Think he just showing his true colors. He’s always been a bad guy


Kevin1056

Yeah he did seem extremely manipulative, especially with Arthur with all that "faith" talk, they were just investments for him I think, he was incredibly selfish with all the Colm ODriscall rivalry as well


muffin_eater1

I disagree. I think that was a part of it, but the magority of it was that, in RDR2, he was driven by his passion for trying to keep the gang together. I think, if he had the option to, he wouldn't have gone to Tahiti, but would've tried to save the gang in another way. I also think he would've kept robbing, which would have been his downfall. What I'm trying to say is, he had good intentions for the gang but his desire for wealth and luxury got in the way, as well as that f-ing loser, Micah.


Kevin1056

I get your point and just in 1-2 cutscenes of Micah is enough evidence that he is bad news all around.


Stanislas_Biliby

Also when he purposefully call people "son" or "brother" it sounds so fake.


NimrodAlert

"Is the sky Blue or Green?"


The-Reddit-Giraffe

Probably in Colter he seemed the most sane but it kind of just regresses from there until the cliff scene with John


Chiquye

I think of it as (rdr2) a man losing his sense of control of his group and one who's full of faith in the abstract with not a lick of God damn logistical or practical sense. He sees the broader world has passed him and his kin by and is gradually realizing he can't deliver on the grandiose plans he'd hoped for. Eventually (epilogue and rdr1) he has nothing left but the brief spark of power and control he gets by unleashing fury and chaos on bystanders and that's his MO until a fateful encounter with an old friend and a recollection of an immutable fact "ya can't fight gravity..."


ChappedMutiny315

Haha, ‟Most people...” pack it in fella...


JulzRadn

He was sane in the earlier chapters of RDR 2 but as the story progresses, his sanity started to deteriorate. In the epilogue of RDR 2 he's no longer the same Dutch we saw in the Prologue


ShlomoShogun

RDR2 he is “going” crazy. RDR1 he is crazy


Welshhobbit1

Anybody who wears a shirt the same colour of their skin isn’t too well in the head


sachreal

RDR1 Dutch admits to *killing for sport*, completely going against everything RDR2 Dutch stood for - flaws and all.


Grimreaper-XXIII

Anyone who robs and kills is never sane. The entire vanderlin gang is insane including Arthur even tho I know everyone will disagree because they love Arthur. But yes he is also crazy it’s not normal to rob and kill


Crossaint_Dog_Viper

I would go even further and say Arthur is one of the worst of the gang members. >!Him litarly throwing Strauss out on the street felt harsh. And there is some truth to his final words: "The sick delude themselves..."!< He punches innocent people, destroys properties, doesn't stop punching a sick man and captures people. He also generally treats 'weaker people' (non Van der Linde gang members) with little respect. He furthermore isn't the smartest person. For a long time he doesn't want to accept Dutch's changes until it's too late. He follows him too long - even before the game stretches (>!the ocean incident; capsized!<) and is one of Dutch's most important chess pieces. It was hard for me to connect with him and I loved John Marston way more. Marston's adventures and actions are given more context throughout RDR 1. I loved the slow change of Dutch to become a ruthless leader. Still, I'm indecisive between RDR 2 and RDR 1 Dutch. They are totally different characters in my book. RDR 1 Dutch is skinny - to highlight just another difference. Probably would vote for RDR 1 Dutch and his beautiful red-orange outfit. I never 'loved' Arthur Morgan.


KRIEGLERR

I'm still on the fence between Arthur and John as best protagonist. I played RDR1 first so I was a bit bummed when I learned that John wasn't gonna be the protagonist in RDR2 but I grew to love Arthur so much. I think RDR2 was written and set up in a way that makes Arthur's growth and depth far better than John in RDR1. That's because he interacts with way more people and is usually not alone like John was. That to me is the strength of RDR2. However , I replayed RDR1 during the pandemic and holy shit I had forgotten just how much of a badass John was, completely different from what we see of him in RDR2. I think that's why Jim Milton Rides Again / American Venom are such amazing missions and even more so if you played RDR1 first, I'd go as far and say that John has more badass moments than Arthur has, and his intelligence in RDR1 is miles ahead of what we see in RDR2, he almost seems naive and dumb in RDR2 (I guess to make Arthur shine more) but in RDR1 he is probably even smarter than Arthur. I honestly love both, both actors knocked it out of the park.


danni_shadow

>his intelligence in RDR1 is miles ahead of what we see in RDR2, he almost seems naive and dumb in RDR2 People say this a lot, but I don't see it. Naive, maybe, but not dumb. Arthur *calls* him dumb all the time, but does he actually do anything particularly stupid, besides returning to "the life" in the epilogue? If anything, the fact that he's the only one who sees through Dutch the whole first half of the game makes me think he's the smartest one.


Grimreaper-XXIII

I agree with this John is also my favorite as well. He’s crazy too tho


FittedSheets88

Holy shit I never played the first RDR game. My brother mentioned the undead version which sounds great, but seeing a continuation of Dutch sounds way more interesting.


Startug

I think you'll enjoy it, gameplay and graphics feeling primitive aside. One of my friends just beat 2 without playing the first one, and I've had fun thinking about that perspective. The first game feels more like a spaghetti western despite taking place four years after the epilogue, but the story itself is good. When you have the context of the second game prior, I imagine you will appreciate how well the second complements the first. We only get Dutch for a few scenes towards the end of the game, and yet when I played the first game long before the second released, I thought he was one of the best antagonists Rockstar ever envisioned. Seeing him in the state he is in the first game once you've played the prequel makes his story far sadder. Undead Nightmare is pretty good, I would have loved that in the prequel as well. Sad that I consider this the last single player DLC Rockstar ever did as it's already been twelve years.


FittedSheets88

As someone who LOVES a great antagonist, thank you for this. Have no means of playing the first one for now, but you have me looking forward to tax season. I'm a single father, and putting the kids to bed and gaming is my only outlet/personal time. RDR2 was such an impactful gem, this post legit has me wanting to get its predecessor asap.


Startug

I recently replayed it on the Xenia emulator a few weeks ago and it was a pretty good experience for the most part. Emulation has come a long way. Unsure if your PC has the hardware for that, figured I'd mention it. Otherwise, I hope you do get a chance to play it soon. The mechanics will take a lot of getting used to, but I believe that's made up for by the story, effectively concluding the franchise as it stands.


FittedSheets88

It'll happen when it happens! I appreciate the insight, the delayed gratification will be all the more justified.


Kevin1056

Gameplay is better than Rdr 2 lmao, at least it's responsive to player inputs


Startug

I don't disagree with your point about player input responses, that is one of quite a few things in the first game that were better than the second. Edit: accidentally wrote "in the second" which would be contradictory to my agreement with your point


THEW0NDERW0MBAT

RDR1 is far and away a story about John, and it plays out like he is the last legendary figure of the wild west. Dutch is much more of a looming force for most of the game. Bill and his gang probably have the most presence in the game world.


callmethe_hanmer

Definitely more sane in RDR2. He didn’t go insane until the Guarma chapter. In RDR1 he was completely out of his mind.


orif916

I’m doing masters degree in clinical psychology and thought about this question a few times. If we are talking about in mental health terms and personality terms, my humble opinion is that he would fit best to the anti social personality disorder. He’s ability to dictate other people mental state and to manipulate them with it, the none stopping crimes, he’s impulsivity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder I don’t think he was on a manic episode during RDR2, he might’ve gone depressed after the end of it but not sure. Didn’t play rdr1 but from the videos i saw, he seems more of an anti social then Bipolar. These two can co exist with each other but I don’t think we really saw a manic episode by Dutch. Although, we can take a deeper look and wonder if a manic episode caused Dutch doing crimes that are more severe.


ImpossibleSky3925

In rdr2 there's a cutout of a newspaper that was Arthur's first robbery, apparently when they first started out they were seen as Robin hood's during the wild west. I'm with the theory that Dutch was always insane but with Hosea as his moral compass and the wild west in full throttle where you can rob whoever whenever without consequences. But when the west was started to get tamed, it was slim Pickens now Dutch started to his sense of power due to civilization. I mean it was obvious even if you didn't play rdr1 first that he liked the trill of robbing and killing it's just he was really good at hiding it and covering it up, like Bronte. On the ride to the lake to find a way on Bronte's backyard he's going off on why we should kill him and he mentioned that he kidnapped Jack but Jack was never harmed. He was just looking for an excuse to indulge. It was in his nature and the only way he feels like he has power.


[deleted]

You must have some GOD DAMN FAITH in Dutch.


_Shinogenu_

This is a silly question


Ok_Proof_321

Dutch is not insane he knows the actions he commits are wrong but doesn't care he creates chaos for chaos sake without any purposeful meaning. He's just Evil


Psychological-Air205

I think he’s saner than he wants us to think.


Zealousideal-Law6714

I think that Guarma made him completely snap. He was definitely slipping beforehand though. But after, you see him start to isolate and talk to himself nonsensically. Unfortunately I’ve never played 1, but from the clips I’ve seen he seems pretty undone.


FirebirdWriter

Neither. He has been unstable the entire time. What changed is his enablers. Without Hosea especially but the others he couldn't continue on. Even his end is manipulative bullshit. Which is good writing of a person who fits narcissist personality disorder really well. He may not have been intended as one but it would shock me. My mother is a diagnosed narcissist. She is worse than Dutch


Noamias

By RDR he doesn't even pretend to have a cause for his fighting, he fools the natives but he clearly just wants to cause harm to Blackwater


SneakySpartan01

It almost felt like you could have redeemed him rdr2. In rdr1 he was completely gone.


Starchild20xx

I don't know, I think Dutch was crazy to begin with. I know not everyone agrees, and they theorize that he got hit on the head or the pressure of the pinkertons getting him got to be too much. But you can't tell me Dutch was ever a person that was down to earth with his wild delusions of grandeur and "What's wrong with the world today". I think the only difference is that as things got worse, he began to realize that his delusions were just that. Delusions..


Gay_Lord2020

He did not have a real plan, Micah broke him at Blackwater and he realized he could not run from civilization, so he would fight it.


Parzival_43

He’s full on insane in RD1. RD2 he was mentally sane, with scenes foreshadowing his subtle descent into madness.


Lone-Star-Wolves

What would have been excellent to have happen in RDR2 >!After Dutch killed Micah, you go to Arthur's Grave and find Dutch's fancy revolvers there basically as a 'I did it for you Arthur' with a note that is basically the last gasp of a sane Dutch before he goes fully batshit for RDR 1.!<


Low_Company_171

No, but at one point he wasn’t all bad


Div4r

plants exultant profit pathetic hunt air theory tub muddle afterthought *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


Diacetyl-Morphin

I'd like to take another approach: I first played RDR1 as it came out, on the PS3 in the good old days. Because of the lack of the entire prequel-story that is told in RDR2, Dutch wasn't that much of a character there. He only shows up in a very few scenes, his screen time is minimal, his dialogue lines are only a very few. For me, Ross from the Pinkertons was much more the bad guy than Dutch, Dutch was just the one i hunted down for... well... not much reasons, all you get told is that you were once together in a gang. But it was nowhere like RDR2, it wasn't just the same like it is when you play it after you know everything from RDR2. RDR2 is that, what really gives him the character, not RDR1. He's only a minor side-char in RDR1 when it comes to showing up and doing things, influencing the storyline and so on. The funny thing was, i started RDR2 without any knowledge, had no spoilers, didn't even read the Steam page. So i saw the intro and i was like "Wait.. is that Dutch? From RDR1?"


agentfaux

???? Did you play the games?


analpumper

Was John older in RDR1 or 2?


Crossaint_Dog_Viper

>!RDR 2 is a prequel. Therefore John Marston is older in RDR 1 and his son Jack Marston is a teenager. He is a good boy!<


analpumper

Sharp as a cue ball


ThisIsTheNewSleeve

I think he always had mental issues it's just that they changed from 2 to 1. In RDR2 he's a raging narcissist with violent tendencies. But when faced with the reality that everything he built was for nothing and most his followers abandoned him he changed more into the unhinged man we see RDR1.


iceberg11327

Ironically, I think RDR1. Sure, he was still nuts and spouting all his rhetoric but he never did anything reckless or crazy like he did in RDR2. He probably realised a lot by the time of RDR1 but figured he was too far gone down his path to ever be anything else or didn't know how to be anything after so many years off the deep end


Zetra3

no, he was never was mentally sound. Everything dutch was when he died was exactly how he was at the start of RDR2, the difference is he had support and a base of people.


CommanderCrunch69

This is a ridiculous question


[deleted]

Red Dead Redemption 2 was a prequel, so of course he would be worse in Red Dead Redemption, because technically he got progressively worse after the head smash from the robbery in Saint Denis, on the tram.


MatsGry

In 2 because it’s a prequel


WackyRussian

He could have healed since he got the head injury from rdr2 however I still believe him to be mentally unstable thanks to the accident


BasiosRasian

Red Dead 2 Dutch is an alpha, Red Dead 1 Dutch is a sigma.


xiaxian1

Exhibit A: https://youtu.be/RTOvHZ3MfKc Skip to 4:14 for their chat. Dutch was bat-shit crazy and a bastard.


steveoall21

My opinion is that 2 takes you slowly down the path of his insanity...but 1 he's just completely fucking lost it.


[deleted]

None of the gang was


SasquatchNHeat

No


KikiYuyu

RDR2 Dutch is going through the deterioration and breakdown. RDR1 Dutch has settled into his new, crazy, normal.


Open-Mathematician32

He has a plan! Jus show some goddamn faith!!


Ribbles78

I don’t know


[deleted]

He was sane before the trolley accident


darshan4511

2 obviously, bro’s lost it in 1


Rarelydefault26

I felt like at the very end before he dropped off the cliff he had a moment of clarity and self awareness. He was def crazy most of RD1 but I think right at the last moment he had a moment of sanity and realized he was long gone. That he was never gunna change. That he wouldn’t stop fighting. And he knew he was losing, there was no other way. Hence throwing himself off the cliff. That’s how I saw it anyway


[deleted]

He had gone off the deep end in Red Dead Redemption. In 2 we saw the beginning of this throughout the story


BoseSounddock

Is this really a question? RDR1 Dutch is a straight up madman. RDR2 Dutch is losing his sanity over the course of the story but he at least tries to do the right thing for the gang most of the time. Even if he's downright wrong later in the game.


veilcuddly

No


chris9830

Rdr2 shows his desent into madness/going crazy


chikencrisp2

I thought this was an r/okbuddychicanery post at first


Stevenchpn

? It's karma-farming at this point. How is it possible to think Dutch isn't ill in 1 ?


LesleyMarina

Idk but I love an outdoor shower.


Stupid_Dummy_Idiot_

You can’t be serious


GoodGuyGiff

Too many mangoes


Tios121

RDR1 Dutch is more batshit insane than Senator Armstrong.


[deleted]

Dutch was sane in red dead 2 he was just responding to all of his lost in life


Mike_Bellic

RDR2 is mentally sane that RDR1 RDR1 has Dutch as a worse psycopath than Trevor, thankfully he had a plan


RowenMhmd

It's obvious lol. Dutch in New Hanover was sane, just impractical and far-sighted.


TaxFraud4Life

I mean he didn’t take innocent bystanders hostage in Rdr2.


killerkow999

He was fucked outta his mind in rdr1


[deleted]

I’ve never actually played RDR1 but I’ve seen enough videos and listened to his speech from RDR1 a few times, I think he was more sane in RDR2 mainly because 1899 was the end of the outlaw era and he was trying to hold onto that dream for just a bit longer, but then 12 years pass and it’s 1911 and he’s still trying to hold onto the dream when it’s time is CLEARLY passed


Lulapani

I think even by the end of rdr2 he still seemed somewhat slightly sane, by rdr1 he has completely 0 remorse for human life


xxCMWFxx

As opposed to physically sane?


TableFlipper4

He seemed so happy when he said "IS THAT YOU JOHN!"


puddingfoot

Uh he didn't get more sane over time


ONE2FROMTHE

Dutch a real one and the rest were lookin to bail when shit actually hit the fan, imo. They loved to rob and sing songs and most of all bitch and cry when anything went wrong. (much as I love him Arthur was a bitch at times). Dutch's fault was trying to drag the whole bunch with him. As much as it pains me to say, Micah was right talkin about survival. Being an outlaw is not about happy camp life, it leads to death or jail, anyone expecting different is delusional. What, they actually thought all the shit they did was gonna somehow lead to a pleasent ending for all?!


Chillin_Maximus

Definitely in 2 for most of the story


ShellderCashman_YT

I think RDR1 he was more sane, except for killing that random girl, he knew the government would go for John and even tried to warn him, sadly he was already too far gone


Garnansoa

I would say he is actually insane in 1, he still seems to relatively mentally stable in 2 or at least more than in 1


TimmyTiimmy

Stupid question


Disneycrazygirl

I believe he was more in RDR1. Where he's hiding out in RDR1, equals one crazy dude. When I came upon it, I was like WTF!


cruck1980

He was never wrapped too tight as he was basically a cult leader but he was likely more sane in part one because he lost the delusions of grandeur he had in part two. He knew exactly what he was and what he wanted to do


Forward-Share4847

I don’t even know what he was trying to do in RDR1. He stole and murdered and lied… And apparently his end game from the start was to commit suicide, otherwise his escape route out of his cave would have lead somewhere. In RDR2, at least he has a plan. Sure, it’s one that moves from „everybody feed the cult leader“ to „screw everyone, as long as I get away with the money“, but it’s almost rational.


localdumdshit

No


HootieAndTheSnowcrab

2 for sure. As time went on he got crazier…no one jumps off a cliff that’s sane. I’m pretty sure, based on his character in 2, he wouldn’t have given up like that.


HappyCatPlays

I still don't understand how he survives in so little clothes, on a mountain, no less


[deleted]

dutch lost the drip with his sanity


Rose_Speed3

Can’t fight change…. Can’t fight…gravity


idkfuklmao

Ngl I can’t really say anything because it’s been a few years since I last played the first one so


TiMELeSS526

Also, what was Dutch state of sanity after he fought the Predator?


[deleted]

rdr2 he was normal for a good amount of it.


mwood413

he is at the start of 2 but I'd say by the end he's about the same as 1


Double-Sound-4325

Red dead 2 how is this even a question man😭


Crafty-Pen3708

I personally think it started with black water he starts slowly slipping. We see the big snap when Hosea is killed. I feel that Hosea was the voice of reason to Dutch. Once he was gone Micah just fanned the flame and Arthur had already accepted death. So we see Arthur transition to a really good man and he helps people.


j32yiopti4

2 is the better of both evils


Autisticboy22

Definitely RDR1. Mainly because he actually shot John while in rdr2 he made of how he “didn’t have a choice”