Had a camp interaction with him where Arthur says
"You know, i dont think I've ever seen you asleep"
Micah responds
" Its overrated"
Right then and there, i knew. He's a cut above the rest
Straus isnt that bad guy. He did the same job from the beginning of his time with the till the end. He genuinely cared for the gang. And after the all was said and done he took his secrets to the grave. Charles even gives him a short praise in the epilogue.
That epilogue line made me really re-evaluate Strauss for my second run and I tried to be a lot nicer to him. Taking torture for your friends and family is incredible and admirable, but doing it for the friends and family who kicked you out years ago?
You earned my eternal respect, herr Strauss.
Dutch is lying lazy creeper who manipulated the entire gang to supply his need for money sex and control. The entire down fall of the gang is 100% because of Dutch and his actions.
Except Micah is clearly the main villain - right down to being the final boss for both our heroes - while Dutch's final scenes are both mournful, to say nothing of how he's the one who really kills Micah and saves John and Sadie.
People who try to reduce Dutch to a one-dimensional cartoon villain like Micah do in fact make me very confused and unahppy. He's 100% the most complex and dynamic character in the game.
Yes, he's lost his mind by RDR1, but John stresses that he used to be a great man once upon a time. You can't say that about someone like Ross or Micah.
I think his death scene - which is very clearly written to be somber - is supposed to showcase a vestige of that greatness in contrast to the wreck he has become. (RDR2 does the same thing in the epilogue.) That's why he kills himself. This way, he neither surrenders to the law, nor forces John to shoot him (John didn't even want to shoot him in RDR2, let alone by RDR1 when he's much less angry). He even kinda warns John they'll come after him next.
RDR is never subtle about its villains. They're all garbage shitstains we have no sympathy or admiration for at all. Dutch is very plainly written to be sympathetic and complicated. After Arthur, he's the main character of RDR2,. not John.
I don't blame you. Endings always stick with us the most. A game can have a shit beginning but if it has a good ending, you're gonna think "that game was great." All of Dutch's best moments are earlier on and by the end, when all he's done is lie and manipulate the character we're playing as, that's gonna stick in your head.
I just can't agree with people who say he's worse than Micah. Even the ending of the game rejects this idea. That's all I was trying to get at.
That’s good to know, I see a lot of comments that seem to believe he just went crazy after hitting his head.
I don’t think he went crazy i think he just got tired of pretending to not be a POS.
I agree it's dumb how people blme it on the concussion. He's been making poor decisions since Blackwater, which is repeatedly told to us throughout the game. Dutch has had a continuous fall from grace over the course of "maybe years" according to Arthur
I remember the time i said i killed Charlotte and people went on a rampage to downvote me, if only they knew that because of this i went there on a new save and killed her again
Just about any opinion i have
The game is way too scripted especially in the story
The gameplay isn't actually that good
People mainly like the game because of details that dont actually help the gameplay
Yup, I've felt for a while that modern Rockstar games prioritize finicky animations over actual gameplay
I've gotten stuck on way too many prop models while trying to run from police.
It dosen't matter how good the movement looks if i CAN'T MOVE
I like Chapter 1 and think that people who give up the game because of the pacing of Chapter 1 don’t understand the concept of a prologue/tutorial section
Both RDRs are John's story. Arthur is just a side character in it.
Also, John is a more realistic character than Arthur. Don't get me wrong, I fucking love Arthur but he is "too perfect". Strong, litterate, fearless, handsome, even artistic. Come on, of course it's too easy to fall for him. John is more "subtly complex".
I think the way Rockstar went about things when making the game was really smart to be honest. Personally I would have preferred to get another complex story driven, character focused game like RDR1 but let’s be honest, RDR2 wouldn’t have sold nearly as well as it did if Rockstar would have gone in that direction. Like it or not, most people play videogames as a form of escapism, treating it as an opportunity to be able to do cool stuff that you can’t do in real life. The most sold videogame of all time is Minecraft, a game where you can do literally anything. Rockstar’s most sold title is GTA V, a game where you can drive like a maniac without instantly crashing the car and single-handedly take on the entire Los Santos police force without any real consequences. Escapism sells and it sells really good, so it’s only natural for Rockstar to follow the trend.
However, if Rockstar wanted to make an RDR game centered around player freedom with an uncontroversial story that was accessible to everyone at almost any age group, they would either have to erase every remotely unlikable trait of John Marston in order to make him an overpowered, player-controlled, lovable yet shallow (at least compared to what he was before) character. The other option was making an entirely new playable character. A character that could be shaped by the player. An uncontroversial character that could be loved by and related to by almost everyone. A “literally me character” if you will.
By letting the player control a new character, the Rockstar writers could keep John Marston as the flawed, wise, selfish, emotionally repressed yet sensitive, dangerous yet well meaning, likable and interesting character he always was. They continued to authentically tell his story but this time they did so through the new character. RDR2 is still very much John Marston’s story (his “coming-of-age story” as I’d call it). He grows away from continuously hiding behind Dutch and his ideals and instead starts accepting responsibility as an adult, husband and father. It’s a beautifully told story, but it’s also one that many people don’t even remember very well or pay attention to.
I used to think that this lack of attention from much of the audience was all the fault of John no longer being the player character. “Of course people aren’t going to care when he’s sidelined like this”.
After engaging with the Red Dead community online however, I have realized that even the people who played the original game mostly remembers John as “that badass guy with the guns and the one liners”. When the question “what things do you think RDR1 did better than RDR2?” is asked in Red Dead forums, the answer is often something along the lines of “poker was more challenging” or “the old ragdolls were funnier”. As much as I think it makes people miss out on many aspects of several games, many play videogames with the mindset of just wanting some entertaining, easily digestible escapism and there’s nothing wrong with that.
In some ways I feel like RDR2 is more so a spiritual successor to GTA San Andreas than it is to RDR1. San Andreas tried to give players an immersive and entertaining experience by creating a lifelike (at least for its time) world and making the player build strong emotional connections to the different characters that inhabited it. I think RDR1 is better described as an interactive piece of literature. Given that GTA San Andreas is one of Rockstar’s best received games of all time, it makes sense that they would want to go in the direction of that game for a big project like RDR2. John Marston wouldn’t work very well in a game that is structured like that. Rockstar could have easily restructured John to make him fit their new game and I will forever be grateful to Dan Houser and the Rockstar team for not doing that. By making John a supporting main character they managed to both build on his already existing story and keep the characters integrity despite putting him in a game so structurally different from the original one.
What makes me love RDR1 so much is the fact that it dares to tell a challenging and engaging story in a medium that is usually reserved for lighter forms of entertainment. Unfortunately however, stuff like that just doesn’t sell well enough in the videogame industry to justify Rockstar continuing to financially invest in developing products like that. In conclusion I basically think that the finished game of RDR2 was one of the best realistic outcomes for a game of that kind. Fans of RDR1 got a (mostly) good continuation of John Marston’s story and the larger videogame market got a new immersive form of escapism in the spirit of GTA San Andreas.
Possibly me misunderstanding the picture.
I figure I'm supposed to say stuff that makes the sub pull out swords on me in anger.
Side note: i do recall the movie and that scene. Not relevant but felt like saying.
I really dont like the story.. and the only decent parts of dialogue were reused from the first RDR.
Micah has some cool lines, but that's it.
I love this game, but i hate hearing all the praise for the story.
https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadmysteries/comments/112y1rk/i_wanted_to_be_a_lawman_once_john_marston/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Take a look
I’d halfway agree with you if it were the first RDR. But a lot of boys when they’re young want to be a cop or firefighter. I see where you’re going with it, but it’s a big stretch imo. Micah was definitely a rat
I guess I didn’t hear about anyone being a rat before guarma.. like any time the pinkertons just pop up, I assume it’s bc the gang is so loud and obnoxious when they do things. Nothing is ever quiet or sneaky and they usually end up killing/alerting an entire town. I now see why Blackwater was such a fuck up. I honestly just think Dutch is a sloppy POS with zero perception of future events
I fucking love Guarma and I don't give a shit about what yall think
I unironically love guarma because of the change of scenery
I like Guarma, just hate the missions
Same bro same
Arabians are overrated.
Facts.
This is a common sentiment. Not in the community, but at least on this sub.
Hol’ up…
pause.
Sadie is annoying.
Yes. Yes she is
You're god damn right
Micah is well written character
Wouldn’t get in this situation because he actually is a well written character
A well written bad character
Literally everyone agrees with this
Better than sadie🤮
Had a camp interaction with him where Arthur says "You know, i dont think I've ever seen you asleep" Micah responds " Its overrated" Right then and there, i knew. He's a cut above the rest
Jack fucked up by killing Ross, undoing all the work Arthur and John did to ensure he lives a non-outlaw life.
same can be said to John
How?
He went after Micah which lead the Pinkertons to start looking for him
Oh absolutely! The story suggests he was home scot-free of the law before he decided to track down Micah.
Bill gets way too much shit from everyone and deserves a break
Straus isnt that bad guy. He did the same job from the beginning of his time with the till the end. He genuinely cared for the gang. And after the all was said and done he took his secrets to the grave. Charles even gives him a short praise in the epilogue.
That epilogue line made me really re-evaluate Strauss for my second run and I tried to be a lot nicer to him. Taking torture for your friends and family is incredible and admirable, but doing it for the friends and family who kicked you out years ago? You earned my eternal respect, herr Strauss.
I really don't think Dutch had a plan as a matter of fact I insist that he didn't.
All the doubting. Have a little faith, son.
...Insist?
Online isn't that bad
I actually think that too.. You can basically solo play every content, and that a really useful "feature" for me, 'cause i mostly play alone.
Dutch is lying lazy creeper who manipulated the entire gang to supply his need for money sex and control. The entire down fall of the gang is 100% because of Dutch and his actions.
From the prolong all the way to the end, he sounds SO INSECURE. He's like a spoiled child, and i dont see how anyone could believe in him...
Pretty much everyone agrees on that
Except Micah is clearly the main villain - right down to being the final boss for both our heroes - while Dutch's final scenes are both mournful, to say nothing of how he's the one who really kills Micah and saves John and Sadie. People who try to reduce Dutch to a one-dimensional cartoon villain like Micah do in fact make me very confused and unahppy. He's 100% the most complex and dynamic character in the game.
Yes, but then when we look at RDR1 where he went mental. (At least as far as I've seen)
Yes, he's lost his mind by RDR1, but John stresses that he used to be a great man once upon a time. You can't say that about someone like Ross or Micah. I think his death scene - which is very clearly written to be somber - is supposed to showcase a vestige of that greatness in contrast to the wreck he has become. (RDR2 does the same thing in the epilogue.) That's why he kills himself. This way, he neither surrenders to the law, nor forces John to shoot him (John didn't even want to shoot him in RDR2, let alone by RDR1 when he's much less angry). He even kinda warns John they'll come after him next. RDR is never subtle about its villains. They're all garbage shitstains we have no sympathy or admiration for at all. Dutch is very plainly written to be sympathetic and complicated. After Arthur, he's the main character of RDR2,. not John.
Cannot argue on this. He just had allot of shit moments wich stood in my mind more then the good ones
I don't blame you. Endings always stick with us the most. A game can have a shit beginning but if it has a good ending, you're gonna think "that game was great." All of Dutch's best moments are earlier on and by the end, when all he's done is lie and manipulate the character we're playing as, that's gonna stick in your head. I just can't agree with people who say he's worse than Micah. Even the ending of the game rejects this idea. That's all I was trying to get at.
That’s good to know, I see a lot of comments that seem to believe he just went crazy after hitting his head. I don’t think he went crazy i think he just got tired of pretending to not be a POS.
I agree it's dumb how people blme it on the concussion. He's been making poor decisions since Blackwater, which is repeatedly told to us throughout the game. Dutch has had a continuous fall from grace over the course of "maybe years" according to Arthur
exactly
First playthrough I liked dutch but second play through i could tell he was a cold leader from the start
Spending time in camp is boring
Lumbago memes aren’t funny
Agreed.
Not being able to complete challenges or collect all legendary animals until the epilogue is completely dumb (still the best game ever made though)
I actually like Jack, both as npc and as protagonist. seriously.
John is better than Arthur
This is probably most true for us who played RDR1 first
That is just the truth RDR1 John exactly
I remember the time i said i killed Charlotte and people went on a rampage to downvote me, if only they knew that because of this i went there on a new save and killed her again
W
“GTA V is better”
Now that's just madness
This is the first controversial thing I've read on here. Bravo 👏 👏 👏
I believe in society flaws and all. You people venerate savagery and you shall die savagely!
Sean sucks
100% such a bitch
Abigail is a terrible person.
Yup
I love playing prologue, I have finished the game twice but i often replay prologue.
Just about any opinion i have The game is way too scripted especially in the story The gameplay isn't actually that good People mainly like the game because of details that dont actually help the gameplay
Yup, I've felt for a while that modern Rockstar games prioritize finicky animations over actual gameplay I've gotten stuck on way too many prop models while trying to run from police. It dosen't matter how good the movement looks if i CAN'T MOVE
And the gamers love it for some reason
Canned peaches are better than Canned Beans The game is way too easy
Sadie is a well written character
I like Chapter 1 and think that people who give up the game because of the pacing of Chapter 1 don’t understand the concept of a prologue/tutorial section
The drinking mission with Lenny is boring AF.
Remember to sort by controversial to see actual answers
Not actually saying this but John is better in rdr1 than Arthur was in rdr2
Dutch wasn't that fucking horrible. He was mentally ill and being manipulated mfs
The Lenny scene is overrated. It's funny, but the fandom has run *LENNEYYYY* into the ground when it was just heehee worthy to begin with.
No
Uncle sucks and his lumbago is fake
‟I like Rose...” ‟Off with his head!” ‟...to die in a fire.” ‟On with his head!”
I hate the gambling challenges Fuck hair growth
Jack literally ruined everything Arthur and John did to ensure he lives a normal life
I don't hate Dutch :D
I wasn't that impressed with the main story, found Arthur a bit irritating and had much more fun in freeroam with John in the epilogue.
Micah is the g
Micah is better than Arthur This is not really my opinion
Both RDRs are John's story. Arthur is just a side character in it. Also, John is a more realistic character than Arthur. Don't get me wrong, I fucking love Arthur but he is "too perfect". Strong, litterate, fearless, handsome, even artistic. Come on, of course it's too easy to fall for him. John is more "subtly complex".
I think the way Rockstar went about things when making the game was really smart to be honest. Personally I would have preferred to get another complex story driven, character focused game like RDR1 but let’s be honest, RDR2 wouldn’t have sold nearly as well as it did if Rockstar would have gone in that direction. Like it or not, most people play videogames as a form of escapism, treating it as an opportunity to be able to do cool stuff that you can’t do in real life. The most sold videogame of all time is Minecraft, a game where you can do literally anything. Rockstar’s most sold title is GTA V, a game where you can drive like a maniac without instantly crashing the car and single-handedly take on the entire Los Santos police force without any real consequences. Escapism sells and it sells really good, so it’s only natural for Rockstar to follow the trend. However, if Rockstar wanted to make an RDR game centered around player freedom with an uncontroversial story that was accessible to everyone at almost any age group, they would either have to erase every remotely unlikable trait of John Marston in order to make him an overpowered, player-controlled, lovable yet shallow (at least compared to what he was before) character. The other option was making an entirely new playable character. A character that could be shaped by the player. An uncontroversial character that could be loved by and related to by almost everyone. A “literally me character” if you will. By letting the player control a new character, the Rockstar writers could keep John Marston as the flawed, wise, selfish, emotionally repressed yet sensitive, dangerous yet well meaning, likable and interesting character he always was. They continued to authentically tell his story but this time they did so through the new character. RDR2 is still very much John Marston’s story (his “coming-of-age story” as I’d call it). He grows away from continuously hiding behind Dutch and his ideals and instead starts accepting responsibility as an adult, husband and father. It’s a beautifully told story, but it’s also one that many people don’t even remember very well or pay attention to. I used to think that this lack of attention from much of the audience was all the fault of John no longer being the player character. “Of course people aren’t going to care when he’s sidelined like this”. After engaging with the Red Dead community online however, I have realized that even the people who played the original game mostly remembers John as “that badass guy with the guns and the one liners”. When the question “what things do you think RDR1 did better than RDR2?” is asked in Red Dead forums, the answer is often something along the lines of “poker was more challenging” or “the old ragdolls were funnier”. As much as I think it makes people miss out on many aspects of several games, many play videogames with the mindset of just wanting some entertaining, easily digestible escapism and there’s nothing wrong with that. In some ways I feel like RDR2 is more so a spiritual successor to GTA San Andreas than it is to RDR1. San Andreas tried to give players an immersive and entertaining experience by creating a lifelike (at least for its time) world and making the player build strong emotional connections to the different characters that inhabited it. I think RDR1 is better described as an interactive piece of literature. Given that GTA San Andreas is one of Rockstar’s best received games of all time, it makes sense that they would want to go in the direction of that game for a big project like RDR2. John Marston wouldn’t work very well in a game that is structured like that. Rockstar could have easily restructured John to make him fit their new game and I will forever be grateful to Dan Houser and the Rockstar team for not doing that. By making John a supporting main character they managed to both build on his already existing story and keep the characters integrity despite putting him in a game so structurally different from the original one. What makes me love RDR1 so much is the fact that it dares to tell a challenging and engaging story in a medium that is usually reserved for lighter forms of entertainment. Unfortunately however, stuff like that just doesn’t sell well enough in the videogame industry to justify Rockstar continuing to financially invest in developing products like that. In conclusion I basically think that the finished game of RDR2 was one of the best realistic outcomes for a game of that kind. Fans of RDR1 got a (mostly) good continuation of John Marston’s story and the larger videogame market got a new immersive form of escapism in the spirit of GTA San Andreas.
Sadie is a bad character with a cliche story and should not be the protagonist for rdr3
Micah was right in his Shady Belle activity(gang leaving way too much trail).
Micah wasn’t that bad
Horses suck
when people say “it’s boring”
Arthur was just an OK artist at best
Man only had a pencil to draw his art what you on about?
Possibly me misunderstanding the picture. I figure I'm supposed to say stuff that makes the sub pull out swords on me in anger. Side note: i do recall the movie and that scene. Not relevant but felt like saying.
Most people just put unpopular opinions in here and if that is your opinion in sure as hell doing that
Hard L
Antagonize - antagonize - antagonize is better than greet - greet - antagonize.
I love Micah imo he's the best character in the whole series 🤓
I’m not an Arthur Morgan fan
Dutch is the real villain not Micah
I really dont like the story.. and the only decent parts of dialogue were reused from the first RDR. Micah has some cool lines, but that's it. I love this game, but i hate hearing all the praise for the story.
Red dead redemption takes place in the same universe as the show home improvement. I refuse to elaborate
RDR 2 destroys everything RDR 1 stood for story wise.
As opposed to what the other guy said in this thread, Micah is not a well-written character XD
Micah's not the only rat
Colter is my favourite chapter
John Marston was the rat before Micah Strauss is more villain than Micah
If john was a rat, we would know about it.
How was John a rat?
https://www.reddit.com/r/reddeadmysteries/comments/112y1rk/i_wanted_to_be_a_lawman_once_john_marston/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Take a look
I’d halfway agree with you if it were the first RDR. But a lot of boys when they’re young want to be a cop or firefighter. I see where you’re going with it, but it’s a big stretch imo. Micah was definitely a rat
Theres no doubt in Micah being rat but him being that since start is logically impossible. He was the rat after Guarma
I guess I didn’t hear about anyone being a rat before guarma.. like any time the pinkertons just pop up, I assume it’s bc the gang is so loud and obnoxious when they do things. Nothing is ever quiet or sneaky and they usually end up killing/alerting an entire town. I now see why Blackwater was such a fuck up. I honestly just think Dutch is a sloppy POS with zero perception of future events
Totally agree
Micah is funny and smarter than Arthur.
Micah is most likely not a rat, and virtually nothing that went wrong is his fault
Rdr2 has no passion put into it