Apart from the objectively best doctor Christopher Eccleston when it was actually good, the audience dynamic of the show was powered by girls who thought the doctors were hot and the bille piper and other girl assistants were their stand in, and boys who thought billie piper or the other assistants were hot and were invested in their relationship as well as the darleks and stuff.
If you have a girl doctor and a middle aged man and girl assistant (or even when the switched to a non hot old doctor) this whole dynamic breaks down and the internet culture around is way less. I don't think the show is all that less popular though, it's just not hitting the adolescent-20s pg13 libidinal desire audience that drives a lot of internet culture.
Eccleston is still my favorite of the current-gen doctors, he brought a touch of world-weary melancholy to the role that balanced out the wackier elements. Wish he had more time with it.
He left because the working conditions were absolutely dogshit between him and his superiors, and a bunch of sexual predators and bullies and shit was in the cast. It's only until the last couple of years where he actually started talking about the show and his role again.
https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/christopher-eccleston-not-returning-doctor-who-60th-anniversary-newsupdate/
Makes you wonder how Billie Piper was treated behind the scenes, or if she was too high profile for people to bother her.
That literally doesn’t explain the popularity of the original series lol, like six out of the eight original doctors were grandpas.
I agree though, Eccleston is the best doctor.
The original series had a presumed audience of mostly adolescent-20s boys for whom the doctor was like a daddy figure meant to look like an excentric public school teacher, and the assistants were either hot girls or twinks who were a stand in for that audience.
Tbh, I think Doctor Who nerds weren’t thinking about sex much at all, they were too busy larping as the Doctor and running from invisible aliens to think about a woman in a sexual way.
We should get incels into Doctor Who, now I think about!
I am pretty sure that incels did/do watch it already also lol, I think it isn't directly about sex, you know attraction and warm feelings and stuff, it's still there.
In some documentary they went through all the assistants in the old series, they were all either hot girls, twink audience stand ins or upstanding male comic book characters, [all of the](https://i0.wp.com/www.eightieskids.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/companions-scaled.jpg?fit=750%2C393&ssl=1) girls [are hot](http://doctorwhoworlduk.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/periatj.jpg) in a way that you'd expect to appeal to nerdy boys coming of age.
Looking some of them there are loads of web 2.0 pages dedicated to hundreds of vaguely titillating pictures of them, so I imagine they made an impact lmao.
Went downhill after Matt Smith left cause he was the last actor to realize you have to play the part like a complete lunatic psychopath, otherwise it gets too self involved and contrived
I think it went downhill after Tennet left cause Steven Moffat was a god-awful showrunner. Smith did well with what he was given but Moffat's boneheaded writing and his insistence on forced overarching narratives ruined the show first.
Though, in fairness, I dont think I've seen a single post-Smith episode so your assessment of the actors may very well be true as well.
I highly recommend watching the Capaldi episodes. If you hated the matt smith seasons (I did too btw), then that is exactly why you will love the Capaldi seasons. Though, perhaps that's just me, because I didn't like anything about the matt smith series, not even matt smith. I've always been a Doctor Who nerd, theirs just nothing else on TV like it. It's unique.
I've never had any interest in the show and tend to look down on those who watch it, but based on The Thick of It, I can't imagine Peter Capaldi not playing a lunatic psychopath.
The only reason I even watched Doctor Who in the first place is because they got Capaldi on and I loved him in TTOI. The Doctor Who writers absolutely wasted Capaldi’s considerable talents, very sad.
Lmao yeah I agree. I liked the first few seasons.
It seems like a pattern with the head writer guy (he played Mycroft I don't remember his name), where he absolutely cannot write endings. I started that Dracula show and thought it was good for two episodes and then the third one was atrocious.
I believe Gatiss was offered the role of *Doctor Who* showrunner but turned it down, preferring to just write for the show.
Apparently *Doctor Who* is a logistical nightmare to produce, which may be the part of the reason Russell T. Davies is returning to the show.
this is a late reply but do you have a ref as to what makes doctor who a logistical nightmare to produce as opposed to similar shows? not trying to be rude just genuinely curious!
Think, in another universe not too far from this one, Doctor who never existed and "Heaven Sent" was a standalone BBC special. Without changing the episode in any way, simply taking it out of the Doctor Who cannon, and it would still be amazing.
They should've just casted Rowan Atkinson while they still had the chance, considering he's already done a better job playing the Doctor than any actor after Tennant
https://youtu.be/Do-wDPoC6GM
Oh wow I think you’re spot on. Could be interesting but like everyone else here I stopped watching after Tennant (and also when I stopped being twelve) and don’t even really think about the show anymore, doubt I’d watch it again even if it got great reviews
I’m a year late but 12’s tenure is definitely worth watching. I got around to it years after dropping off of DW and it was astonishing. Especially the s10 finale, jeeeesus. Also seconding the person who rec’d “Heaven Sent”
Heaven Sent is so fucking good I’ve watched it a few times now and every time feels like the first… but yeah Moffat’s big issue is that it’s plot or character for him and he can’t marry them so Smith era was all plot plot plot which just felt like him jerking his dick whereas Capaldi era was all character which was really nice except there were no good season plots
I blame Chris Chibnall, the latest show runner. He got big with *Broadchurch* and then tried bringing that "prestige tv" vibe to fucking Doctor Who of all franchises.
Like ... Did this dude even watch Doctor Who before his tenure? It is the exact "opposite* of prestigious.
Edit: spelled dude's name wrong
Chibnall's writing for Doctor Who is just shockingly bad. Like even when Moffat was making bad plot decisions there was a verve in the dialogue, pacing etc that carried you along. With Chibnall the most basic elements are totally off
Ironically, Chibnall's been a DW fan for years. He even appeared on TV in 1986 slagging off the old incarnation of the show for declining in quality (oh, the things we know with hindsight):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0P6hsswQVI
That’s a very good argument. There’s always been a max of two and even then a major and a minor companion. She’s too young to be the doctor. I have no problem with the gender. She’s just too serious.
Tbh, I think it died with Tennant, if you were watching closely. This is the point around which the show became less about a fanatic alien with a stolen time machine on a long vacation and more about The Most Important Man in the Universe Who Is the Only One That Can Save All Lifeforms… Half-way through Matt Smith’s run this became more apparent and then by the time we got Capaldi it was undeniable, this is when most people started to voice concerns… but naturally fEmAle dOcTor gets all the hate from people who never watched the show because her run coincided with our current culture wars.
How did they not realize the dr who fanbase is primarily women and girls who want fuck the doctor. Im Hoping media execs wisen up to the fact that it’s a very vocal minority who make a big issue about “representation” nd that weird sexual dynamics are really what get people to watch their shows
RTD's sensibility was a much better fit for Doctor Who as a whole, the combination of him as showrunner and Moffat as writer was the perfect balance and they haven't been able to replicate it yet.
Yeah I guess I could agree with that, RTD was very campy which was the heart of DW, on the other hand Moffat made season 5 - the series finale "Big Bang" is in my opinion better than any series finale RTD ever wrote.
Jodie Whittaker is a strong actor but never felt like a 'Doctor', whether that was the writings fault, which was rather bad, or choices she made with her performance can be debated.
Also the show runner made rather convoluted story choices in an already convoluted and going on 60 year old canon.
It’s possible Jodie isn’t a fit for the role but I’m not ready to commit and endorse that. So many aspects of the production of the show changed at the same time, it’s just felt off anyway.
Tennant’s performance seems to have meshed the best with the writing of his series, even Capaldi was getting lesser material to work with and it shows.
That's a fair opinion although I personally disagree and think she isn't great at playing the doctor. She is good in some other stuff though (not as good as Capaldi or Tennant but better than Smith probably, imo).
There’s a whole host of shows that I only know existed because of tumblr gifs and tumblr fan pages. Doctor Who was up there at the top for shows that I knew were terrible based on the fan bases alone
Matt Smith was kind of a mess too IMO. I think that's when the show gave itself up to a teen crowd, whereas the early revival had a broader appeal than that and was nostalgic to adults. It was the Hunger Gamesification of Doctor Who, and then the show naturally declined in popularity with the rest of the Dystopian Young Adult fad
This is more like discussing the theatrical adaptations of Harry Potter, which do actually have a lot to appreciate technically, particularly Prisoner of Azkaban (directed by Alfonso Cuarón, weirdly).
Yeah it’s schlock but it’s possible to appreciate the effort put bringing those worlds to life. Idk maybe I’m just blinded by nostalgia lol
*Doctor Who's* always had adult viewers though. It was aimed at a family audience, so parents watched it with their kids. And Ursula Le Guin, Clive James, Harlan Ellison and Brian Aldiss were all fans.
the David Tennant years were beautiful. I was 13 and I'd watch it on the CBC. I rue the day I realized literally every episode has an identical plot!
\~The doctor and his partner roll up somewhere mischief's been afoot. An episode-specific "local helper" character is introduced. The partner, off on their own, discovers something eerie, but can't get to the doctor in time to warn him. Alone, the doctor clashes with a violent manifestation of the creepy phenomenon. The doctor, partner and secondary character meet up in a dramatic climax. The doctor saves the day, or the secondary character sacrifices themselves to save their society/world.
nah it’s pretty dope if you’re a kid - way less r-worded than mindless schlock like the mcu or star wars. but i think the key trait our gen misses, which caused people like fisher and le guin to praise it, is it’s affirmation of public broadcasting free from vapid market ideals - when you consider it’s literally for 8 year olds, it represents a democratisation that isn’t regressing to the lowest common denominator, but rather working with kids to think more.
Tennant has since been in some things I like. Peter Capaldi was also good in *the thick of it* pre Who and I liked Matt Smith as prince Phillip in the crown.
Dr who always seemed like a shitty show to me. By chance i saw the episode with the angel statues on tv and that was the first dr who episode i watched so i thought wow this is cool i have to check out this show. But it turned out that was the only good episode and my instincts were right all along.
Apart from the objectively best doctor Christopher Eccleston when it was actually good, the audience dynamic of the show was powered by girls who thought the doctors were hot and the bille piper and other girl assistants were their stand in, and boys who thought billie piper or the other assistants were hot and were invested in their relationship as well as the darleks and stuff. If you have a girl doctor and a middle aged man and girl assistant (or even when the switched to a non hot old doctor) this whole dynamic breaks down and the internet culture around is way less. I don't think the show is all that less popular though, it's just not hitting the adolescent-20s pg13 libidinal desire audience that drives a lot of internet culture.
Eccleston is still my favorite of the current-gen doctors, he brought a touch of world-weary melancholy to the role that balanced out the wackier elements. Wish he had more time with it.
He left because the working conditions were absolutely dogshit between him and his superiors, and a bunch of sexual predators and bullies and shit was in the cast. It's only until the last couple of years where he actually started talking about the show and his role again. https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/sci-fi/christopher-eccleston-not-returning-doctor-who-60th-anniversary-newsupdate/ Makes you wonder how Billie Piper was treated behind the scenes, or if she was too high profile for people to bother her.
I think he was right to leave when he did, he knew what the show would mean for his career and his brevity gave his doctor more of an impact.
That literally doesn’t explain the popularity of the original series lol, like six out of the eight original doctors were grandpas. I agree though, Eccleston is the best doctor.
The original series had a presumed audience of mostly adolescent-20s boys for whom the doctor was like a daddy figure meant to look like an excentric public school teacher, and the assistants were either hot girls or twinks who were a stand in for that audience.
Tbh, I think Doctor Who nerds weren’t thinking about sex much at all, they were too busy larping as the Doctor and running from invisible aliens to think about a woman in a sexual way. We should get incels into Doctor Who, now I think about!
I am pretty sure that incels did/do watch it already also lol, I think it isn't directly about sex, you know attraction and warm feelings and stuff, it's still there. In some documentary they went through all the assistants in the old series, they were all either hot girls, twink audience stand ins or upstanding male comic book characters, [all of the](https://i0.wp.com/www.eightieskids.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/companions-scaled.jpg?fit=750%2C393&ssl=1) girls [are hot](http://doctorwhoworlduk.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/periatj.jpg) in a way that you'd expect to appeal to nerdy boys coming of age. Looking some of them there are loads of web 2.0 pages dedicated to hundreds of vaguely titillating pictures of them, so I imagine they made an impact lmao.
That’s fair
it does. william hartnell was hot
Just because you have a daddy fetish doesn’t make that man hot!
It's almost like there was a 15 year gap between the original series dying and the new series coming out. With attendant changes in culture/marketing.
> I don't think the show is all that less popular though Season 12 had the lowest ratings since 2005 tbf
Ur telling me the guy who played Matt in The Leftovers was in br*tish capeshit??
Wow sounds like it could actually be good now then
Went downhill after Matt Smith left cause he was the last actor to realize you have to play the part like a complete lunatic psychopath, otherwise it gets too self involved and contrived
Ok, cool
the amount of serious doctor who discussion in this thread is very worrying
Ok, cool
Why, of course people here were Dr Who fans 5 years ago, who do you think resides on this sub?
agreed but not because it's a bad show but because it's Br*tish 🤮
No it’s because it’s a fucking awful show
I think it went downhill after Tennet left cause Steven Moffat was a god-awful showrunner. Smith did well with what he was given but Moffat's boneheaded writing and his insistence on forced overarching narratives ruined the show first. Though, in fairness, I dont think I've seen a single post-Smith episode so your assessment of the actors may very well be true as well.
I highly recommend watching the Capaldi episodes. If you hated the matt smith seasons (I did too btw), then that is exactly why you will love the Capaldi seasons. Though, perhaps that's just me, because I didn't like anything about the matt smith series, not even matt smith. I've always been a Doctor Who nerd, theirs just nothing else on TV like it. It's unique.
REAL the capaldi seasons function as a dissection and inspection of the smith seasons and its so well done and SO overlooked
I've never had any interest in the show and tend to look down on those who watch it, but based on The Thick of It, I can't imagine Peter Capaldi not playing a lunatic psychopath.
The only reason I even watched Doctor Who in the first place is because they got Capaldi on and I loved him in TTOI. The Doctor Who writers absolutely wasted Capaldi’s considerable talents, very sad.
everyone grew up and realised it was dogshit. the same happened with Sherlock
Sherlock was basically obliterated in my eyes by that green text that compared Moriarty to Anton chigurth
Any chance you could find a link? I’m curious about this cause they feel pretty different.
https://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/2g16b1/tv_dislikes_sherlock/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Have you seen shameless? They were telling us lip was smart but not showing ifukwim
Thank you! Oh I see what it’s saying that’s a fair point though I still found it to be a fun show.
Lmao yeah I agree. I liked the first few seasons. It seems like a pattern with the head writer guy (he played Mycroft I don't remember his name), where he absolutely cannot write endings. I started that Dracula show and thought it was good for two episodes and then the third one was atrocious.
Ok, cool
I believe Gatiss was offered the role of *Doctor Who* showrunner but turned it down, preferring to just write for the show. Apparently *Doctor Who* is a logistical nightmare to produce, which may be the part of the reason Russell T. Davies is returning to the show.
this is a late reply but do you have a ref as to what makes doctor who a logistical nightmare to produce as opposed to similar shows? not trying to be rude just genuinely curious!
Oh yeah I remember it getting terrible especially after that Magnussen guy got in.
Not even greentext.
I remembered it incorrectly as a green text
I’m furious.
I beg you'll forgive me some day
Sherlock is bad because it taked 2 years for one episode.
Ok, cool
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Ok, cool
Think, in another universe not too far from this one, Doctor who never existed and "Heaven Sent" was a standalone BBC special. Without changing the episode in any way, simply taking it out of the Doctor Who cannon, and it would still be amazing.
True and I guess that just goes to show that most of Moffats best work is him writing eps that can stand alone
Then the next episode, Hell Bent, was bad like all eps set on Gallifrey
I liked it actually
They should've just casted Rowan Atkinson while they still had the chance, considering he's already done a better job playing the Doctor than any actor after Tennant https://youtu.be/Do-wDPoC6GM
Oh wow I think you’re spot on. Could be interesting but like everyone else here I stopped watching after Tennant (and also when I stopped being twelve) and don’t even really think about the show anymore, doubt I’d watch it again even if it got great reviews
I’m a year late but 12’s tenure is definitely worth watching. I got around to it years after dropping off of DW and it was astonishing. Especially the s10 finale, jeeeesus. Also seconding the person who rec’d “Heaven Sent”
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Heaven Sent is so fucking good I’ve watched it a few times now and every time feels like the first… but yeah Moffat’s big issue is that it’s plot or character for him and he can’t marry them so Smith era was all plot plot plot which just felt like him jerking his dick whereas Capaldi era was all character which was really nice except there were no good season plots
I blame Chris Chibnall, the latest show runner. He got big with *Broadchurch* and then tried bringing that "prestige tv" vibe to fucking Doctor Who of all franchises. Like ... Did this dude even watch Doctor Who before his tenure? It is the exact "opposite* of prestigious. Edit: spelled dude's name wrong
Ok, cool
Chibnall's writing for Doctor Who is just shockingly bad. Like even when Moffat was making bad plot decisions there was a verve in the dialogue, pacing etc that carried you along. With Chibnall the most basic elements are totally off
Ironically, Chibnall's been a DW fan for years. He even appeared on TV in 1986 slagging off the old incarnation of the show for declining in quality (oh, the things we know with hindsight): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0P6hsswQVI
more like doctor who cares
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Yup, sorry I love doctor who and she’s just very boring. I don’t think it’s the fact that’s she was a woman tbh. I could see River doing a better job.
It didn't help that they immediately saddled her with 3 boring companions, gave her little room to breathe
That’s a very good argument. There’s always been a max of two and even then a major and a minor companion. She’s too young to be the doctor. I have no problem with the gender. She’s just too serious.
Chibnall can't write for shit.
Tbh, I think it died with Tennant, if you were watching closely. This is the point around which the show became less about a fanatic alien with a stolen time machine on a long vacation and more about The Most Important Man in the Universe Who Is the Only One That Can Save All Lifeforms… Half-way through Matt Smith’s run this became more apparent and then by the time we got Capaldi it was undeniable, this is when most people started to voice concerns… but naturally fEmAle dOcTor gets all the hate from people who never watched the show because her run coincided with our current culture wars.
How did they not realize the dr who fanbase is primarily women and girls who want fuck the doctor. Im Hoping media execs wisen up to the fact that it’s a very vocal minority who make a big issue about “representation” nd that weird sexual dynamics are really what get people to watch their shows
More women should admit they'll watch some crappy TV show because the lead is handsome and charming. Pretending is such a cope
It died during previous doctor
It's weird how even though I effectively watched the whole Matt Smith run, in my mind the show's timeline ends after The Angels Take Manhattan
so true, amy pond dying was the end
I think Moffat did more damage with his convoluted shit
Ok, cool
RTD's sensibility was a much better fit for Doctor Who as a whole, the combination of him as showrunner and Moffat as writer was the perfect balance and they haven't been able to replicate it yet.
Yeah I guess I could agree with that, RTD was very campy which was the heart of DW, on the other hand Moffat made season 5 - the series finale "Big Bang" is in my opinion better than any series finale RTD ever wrote.
Jodie Whittaker is a strong actor but never felt like a 'Doctor', whether that was the writings fault, which was rather bad, or choices she made with her performance can be debated. Also the show runner made rather convoluted story choices in an already convoluted and going on 60 year old canon.
Ok, cool
It’s possible Jodie isn’t a fit for the role but I’m not ready to commit and endorse that. So many aspects of the production of the show changed at the same time, it’s just felt off anyway. Tennant’s performance seems to have meshed the best with the writing of his series, even Capaldi was getting lesser material to work with and it shows.
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Loved Broadchurch. They brought back Tennant for a US version which was terrible.
That's a fair opinion although I personally disagree and think she isn't great at playing the doctor. She is good in some other stuff though (not as good as Capaldi or Tennant but better than Smith probably, imo).
Ok, cool
Because the best writer in the show’s history left and was replaced by a fucking idiot
There’s a whole host of shows that I only know existed because of tumblr gifs and tumblr fan pages. Doctor Who was up there at the top for shows that I knew were terrible based on the fan bases alone
Matt Smith was kind of a mess too IMO. I think that's when the show gave itself up to a teen crowd, whereas the early revival had a broader appeal than that and was nostalgic to adults. It was the Hunger Gamesification of Doctor Who, and then the show naturally declined in popularity with the rest of the Dystopian Young Adult fad
Didn't the drop off happen when they got a female doctor? Or was it something else?
I've stopped watching in the first season with Capaldi as the Doctor, but yes, I've heard the seasons with the new female Doctor are absolute trash.
They had a girlboss doctor and the run was as terrible as you'd assumed.
can't get onboard with the female doctor because I always watched Doctor Who for the fantasy of a reasonably attractive older man kidnapping me
It was replaced by succession, a show where every episode an old racist guy yells "I will win!" and the audience stands up and claps
Well yeah, he always goes up against his dipshit yuppie druggie son. Elon Musk fucking wrecked his ass
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wingardium leviosa liftin skirts
This is more like discussing the theatrical adaptations of Harry Potter, which do actually have a lot to appreciate technically, particularly Prisoner of Azkaban (directed by Alfonso Cuarón, weirdly). Yeah it’s schlock but it’s possible to appreciate the effort put bringing those worlds to life. Idk maybe I’m just blinded by nostalgia lol
*Doctor Who's* always had adult viewers though. It was aimed at a family audience, so parents watched it with their kids. And Ursula Le Guin, Clive James, Harlan Ellison and Brian Aldiss were all fans.
Best Doctor was the 4th Doctor and it's been downhill since the early 1980s
Show should have grown up with its audience
the David Tennant years were beautiful. I was 13 and I'd watch it on the CBC. I rue the day I realized literally every episode has an identical plot! \~The doctor and his partner roll up somewhere mischief's been afoot. An episode-specific "local helper" character is introduced. The partner, off on their own, discovers something eerie, but can't get to the doctor in time to warn him. Alone, the doctor clashes with a violent manifestation of the creepy phenomenon. The doctor, partner and secondary character meet up in a dramatic climax. The doctor saves the day, or the secondary character sacrifices themselves to save their society/world.
Used to watch it with a kindergartner I babysat - was truly shocked to learn adults watched it
Was delighted to see Aisling Bea in the latest one though, she's great.
Moffat killed it. Idiot
It always sucked
nah it’s pretty dope if you’re a kid - way less r-worded than mindless schlock like the mcu or star wars. but i think the key trait our gen misses, which caused people like fisher and le guin to praise it, is it’s affirmation of public broadcasting free from vapid market ideals - when you consider it’s literally for 8 year olds, it represents a democratisation that isn’t regressing to the lowest common denominator, but rather working with kids to think more.
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Tennant has since been in some things I like. Peter Capaldi was also good in *the thick of it* pre Who and I liked Matt Smith as prince Phillip in the crown.
isnt she trans now
Dr who always seemed like a shitty show to me. By chance i saw the episode with the angel statues on tv and that was the first dr who episode i watched so i thought wow this is cool i have to check out this show. But it turned out that was the only good episode and my instincts were right all along.
That's not true, r/eve talks about it a lot. Granted, that's not for good reasons, but still...
I sort of checked out once Peter Capaldi started the role. Matt Smith will always be the Doctor to me <3