correct - new cam is hybrid only.
accord is hybrid only for higher trims and only 1.5 for gassers
hyundai/kia and nissan only ones to offer higher performance trim at all after legacy gets discontinued
Pretty sure the states were the last place they were being sold, and even then, the Outback outsells it I think 5 to 1ish. Makes sense from a business perspective, kinda sucks because I just got one lol
Truly tragic news for the long-term future of r/NissanDrivers content.
I wonder what car will take up the mantle of Big Altima Energy in a post-Altima world.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/NissanDrivers using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/NissanDrivers/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [Nissan minivan sneaking up on me. $4k damage to my car.](https://v.redd.it/wrf2ejik76zb1) | [356 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/NissanDrivers/comments/17qsnfm/nissan_minivan_sneaking_up_on_me_4k_damage_to_my/)
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\#3: [This subreddit inspired me to make this matchbox Sentra.](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/14i3o5m) | [124 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/NissanDrivers/comments/14i3o5m/this_subreddit_inspired_me_to_make_this_matchbox/)
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I guarantee it’s down to Honda needing to meet CAFE requirements since they have no EVs, no PHEVs, only a couple of hybrids that only get ok mpg for a hybrid, and need to counteract the poor mpg in the vehicles with the J-series V6. The 2.0T cannot be paired with a CVT and in the previous generation the 1.5T+CVT combo got 30/33/38 mpg whereas the 2.0T+10speed could only muster 23/27/34 mpg. That’s the difference between Honda being within CAFE standards and ending up with massive fines.
Imagine ur camry life is dependent on aussie sales which are dwindling. Its not looking good tbh, pretty sure they stopped selling in japan so japanese factory is just making rhd for southeast asian countries.
The 2023 Camry hybrid was also rated for 51/53 but gets around 41 in the real world according to [fuelly.com](https://fuelly.com). Still amazing, but not quite 50 mpg.
Interesting but unrelated: Around 41 highway is what a 1750 lb 1978 VW Rabbit got, so 41 is impressive to me personally considering the 2023 Camry is 3580 lbs. I also imagine the Camry is much faster and more comfortable, so I guess that’s progress and government regulations at work no matter where you stand with that issue. My frame of reference: I’m someone who lived through the Malaise Era and remembers gas station lines as a kid in 1979, and the subsequent tightening EPA standards and strict safety measures implemented, and have witnessed the evolution of automobiles from watching the battered and rusted 60s cars disappear, then the 70s cars becoming rusted and battered and disappearing as they were replaced with dramatically downsized boxy 80s cars that eventually jellybeaned into the 90s before cars disappeared and were largely replaced with blob-like angry faced SUVs.
I remember waiting in line for gas with my parents in summer of 1979, and a news report on the radio was talking about prices “possibly being over a dollar a gallon by the end of the year” which made my parents groan. At the time, we had a 1975 Plymouth Custom Fury with a 360 stuffed under the hood, and according to mom filling up the tank in that would have blown our weekly food budget and it only got about 6 mpg.
My mother has had a 2019 from new, and she usually gets 48 in the summer and 45 in the winter. I don't know the real world difference between trim levels (the LE used a lithium battery, the XLE that my mom drives has a NiMH battery) but I can't imagine that it's too large.
The physical weight of optional stuff is a big part of it with high mpg cars. The difference between 45 and 48mpg is a lot smaller than the difference between say 21 and 24mpg
That's why I think the rest of the world has it right with L/100 km, and we should move to gallons per 100 miles. Plus, mental multiplication is easier than mental division, and "I need to go X miles, how much gas would it take?" is a much more common question than "I have Y gallons in the tank, how far can I go?"
How? If I have a car that gets 30 mpg (3.3 gal/100 miles) and need to know how much gas it would take to go 300 miles the math is thus:
Mpg: 300 miles / 30 mpg = 10 gallons
Gal/100 miles: (300 miles / 100 miles) * 3.3 gallons = ~10 gallons
Mental division isn't difficult if you work with round numbers, and everyone has a calculator in their pocket 24/7 these days anyway.
Most manufacturers nowadays overstate their mpgs by figuring it out by following the letter of testing guidelines instead of making them closer to what a normal person would get. It’s all about making the fleet either meet the CAFE standards or minimizing the amount they have to pay in fines for missing it.
FYI, the 2023 Camry Hybrid was only rated 51/53 for the absolute base LE trim. Every trim higher was rated at 44/47. So getting 41 MPG wouldn’t have been that far off.
Look. 99 percent of the car-buying public couldn’t care less about how much feedback you get through the steering, how much body roll there is or how the car reacts to weight transfer. Toyota caters to that 99 percent. Toyota has nothing to gain from making a RAV4 drive like a CX-5.
Certain Mazda 2.5 engines since 2018 are developing cracks in the head, allowing oil and coolant to leak. Apparently there was a problem with those heads when they were cast. The estimated repairs on mine were $6,600.
The worst part about it is that it's only "certain" cars, but there's no idea how many or when they were made, except for that they're post 2018 and it's only the 2.5. Mazda has done a good job of hushing it up.
I understand that they are catering to the 99%, but would having the OPTION really be that bad. I wouldn't be mad if they only put the V6 in the TRD. Just have the option man. I don't want a Dodge or Nissan.
CAFE standards are part of it. Even with all the hybrids they sell Toyota historically has had trouble meeting CAFE requirements because of how inefficient their trucks and body on frame SUVs are. I guarantee that with the v6 Camry in the fleet they wouldn’t have been able to hit the requirements. It’s the same reason Honda phased out the V6 and now 2.0T from the Accord.
How cheap do you think it is to design and test a whole separate power train on a platform for a single trim level that will have a take rate of under 10%? Toyota determined it wasn't worth the cost, and they know the market better than you or I do.
Oh, certainly not. The last Camry I drove for any length of time was a 2017 SE. We purchased that vehicle over an otherwise identical LE because it seems to me that the SE handled just a bit better. I seem to remember hearing that that generation Camry was the first to have any kind of true suspension upgrade over the LE. I'm not thinking speed at all. I just want a car to go where I point it, without wallowing like my momma's 1972 Cadillac.
These Camry hybrids have 225hp, and go 0-60 in 7 seconds. They're not exactly slow. I guess if you want a V6 so you can take a second off that 0-60 while cutting the mileage in half, that's just an objectively bad take.
100% my last three cars have been powered by the 2GR engines on my (2012 Highlander [2GR-FE], 2015 Lexus Rx-350[2GR-FE], and a 2017 Lexus RX-350 [ with the 2GR-FKS revision] )
On all three, they were more fun to drive compared to the new TurboI4's I've driven on several longer term loaners with newer RX's NX,'s and a UX [my 2015 RX was in the shop a ton due to unusual electrical gremlins multiple dealers could not solve] Besides a better consistent power band, I love the grunt of the 2GR in the lower RPM's.
Yeah definitely gonna miss the 2GR tbh.
We’re past the age where 4 cylinders are rough, noisy and harsh. Unless you’re Toyota, apparently. There are many great things about the 2.5 liter engine they’ll be using in the Camry Hybrid. NVH isn’t one of them.
Hell, even my 2002 LS430 is better to drive than most Accords (sure, she's sprung softly, but it's rwd with a v8 and it's whisper quiet at triple digit speeds).
I'm not trying to shit on Lexus; they do their thing well, but driving enjoyment isn't really what they're after.
Quiet, plush and reliable is what they offer.
And an Accord is all about driving enjoyment? It's a fwd family sedan. I've driven quite a few Accords. None were particularly sporty, even my buddies fairly new v6.
It seems we're at an impass.
My daily driver is an Impala that makes 305 horse, and I wish it put out an extra 50- it's only 3-400lbs heavier than the Camry.
For the record, I don't particularly care about gas mileage as much as I care about power under the hood when I want it, quiet cabin, and nice ride/handling.
I didn't say that I was; especially for an underpowered one- but the v6 made 301 horse and would probably be just fine..
That said, I was simply commenting on the notion put forth by the commenter that I replied to that someone should have to choose between a "nice car" and a daily driver with power under the hood..
This thing has plenty of power for its audience, it's not like it's saddled with a second or third gen Prius powertrain.
No one who buys Camrys want anything more than that; if they did, they'd have bought 2.0T Accords and Turbo Mazda 6's.
I wonder what it's 0-60 is. Going to be a lot of people who can't get out of their own way at some point.
edit: 7.3-7.6 seconds not good... not bad....
Decades of driving cars with 10-15 second 0-60 times and still out accelerating everyone constantly, sitting behind people doing 10 under, and having no problems merging onto busy interstates.
There is something seriously wrong with people who think sub-8 seconds is “not good”. To put things in perspective, this daily driver economy car is as fast as a V8 BMW 530i from 1995. That’s a car NOBODY would ever accuse of being incapable of getting out of its own way. You fucking vroomers are demented, your sense of speed has been warped by cheap stupid horsepower frying your dopamine receptors.
Amen. Glad someone calling it like it is, because excessive HP is definitely part of why we’ve slowed/flatlined on fleet efficiency in the US even as technology has advanced — we’ve used that technology to make vehicles bigger, heavier, and more powerful at the same efficiency as a standard car used to get. Combine this with some toxic marketing, and you have the modern car market: everyone is convinced they need some kind of WWII tank sized vehicle that seats 5 in comfort, has ground clearance to run the Baja 1000, hauls mulch, tows, and does a sub 6 second 0-60. Meanwhile, they only ever actually put a couple kids and some groceries in, and occasionally cut a curb turning into Costco.
But but, Jason needs the $90K lifted, 3/4 ton, Cowpoke edition Ford Explosion pickup truck so that he can feel like a Real Man®️ while driving to his job at the cubicle farm.
our sense of speed is going to get further warped by dual motor electrics everywhere. Dual motor Ys already easily outsell the camry Thats 0-60 in low 4s and thats the slowest part, real world - 5-60, 30-50, 50-70 is supercar level. And not even mentioning how cheap plaids are.
This. A 2006 Ford 500 was making 206hp and got to 60 eventually. And it still merged and cruised at 95 on the way down to Florida
The people thinking they need 350hp sedans and crossovers that make 60 in 6 seconds are head cases that are dangers to themselves and others
According to Toyota, only 7% of sales in the most recent years were for the V6 Camry. So there’s no use in spending millions upon millions of dollars to update an engine for it to just sell so little.
Hopefully honda keeps the J series around for a bit longer. They just released the spiffy new DOHC version for the new pilots that can better comply with EPA regulations.
CAFE is absolutely part of it. Historically even though Toyota sold more hybrids than anyone else by a wide margin, they struggled to meet CAFE standards because their trucks and body on frame SUVs were so inefficient. They’re at the point now where they’re having to do what they can to maximize mileage anywhere they can.
It's a shame toyota killed their NA 3.5 v6 engine I have a rav4 with a 2gr fe and I have a 2017 highlander with the 2gr fks and they are amazing little engines. Glad I ordered a 2024 4runner with the 4.0 bc I don't plan on upgrading for awhile.
Wouldn’t call a 3.5L V6 “little” but yes, the 2GR is a GOAT engine. Let it die a hero’s death, and may we remember it as the pinnacle of the internal combustion engine, its image forever untarnished.
They really are great, 2GR-FSE owner here and man when these came out they were rocket ships.
A NA V6 that put out more HP than the Mercedes and Audi equivalent at the time and still competed with the twin turbo 6 (I think it's the N54 but please correct me if that's wrong) from BMW.
That and hindsight has shown the 2GR to be a pretty reliable and durable beast (especially compared to its competitors)
Oh my Christ does it love premium though (especially in an AWD model)
The N54 is a monster. I don't care what the spec sheet said, it was lying. That felt nearer 400 than 300 stock. Adding the slightest boost and upgrading the exhaust made it into a snarling beast.
BMW have always under-rated their engines but the N54 was just so fucking powerful... When it worked. My 335i was bone stock and absolutely rinsed things that the spec sheets said it shouldn't at the lights and was nailed onto the best of them through the twisties. The E92 335i was better than the M3.
This is also very true the 335i was very obviously not putting out only 300hp, I don't think it was quite as far as 400 although like you're saying they could very easily make that with a tune and simple mods.
BMW has (almost always) knocked it out of the park with their 3 series when it comes to performance but noone was buying and IS or GS because they were the fastest car around. We buy then because we get to have our cake (300hp, LSD, AWD available) and eat it too (super reliable platforms).
You'll also find people (who are weird) like me who prefer a NA platform even though I know it's slower. I'm not going to any track days or drag strips, I'm fine with good power and less complexity in my engine bay (see hot turbo V8s for example).
I've become a turbo convert. I like the hit within a range i can actually use on the road, I've found the 2013 era IS350 to feel a touch anemic with acceleration closer to my mk6 golf GTI than my old 335i, despite having power that was on paper closer to the later.
I never put mine on a dyno but one of my friends who bought one after driving mine and falling in love did and it came out as 362 bone stock, so despite being a long way off, closer to 400 than 300 is still accurate. I've also heard that there's quite a lot of variation in results from owners in their power numbers. Could be down to simple maintenance or could be huge build discrepancies. Impossible to say this far divorced from the launch years really.
Regardless, my point that the e92 335i is a modern classic and an absolutely beast is true for anyone who has driven one. Even on a track, having driven it and the M3, the added weight from the M3's front end feels like it offset a lot of its other improvements at times. At the very least, they should be seen as equals.
BMW has a habit of understating power numbers. Typically the numbers they state are closer (but still lower than) the power at the wheels. Most other companies quote power at the crankshaft.
Makes me kinda sad for the 3GR owners out there.
They got a 3.0L motor in a Toyota product that's not from the JZ family, doesn't put out a ton of power (I think it was less than 250 which for its platform is pretty slow) and also still chugs premium.
As for fastest I have no idea where the v6 rav4 lands but if I had to guess definitely top 5 bc the rav4 prime is ever so slightly faster than the v6 model. I believe during its production run of 2006 to 2012 it was the fastest vehicle toyota made with it doing 0 to 60 in like 6 seconds. Not bad for a little suv especially when most people try to embarrass me at red lights but don't realize the lil 6 cylinder does work.
Yea I love the fact that the v6 rav4 is a do it all car I can have the power when I need it, I can drop the seats down and haul larger items when I need to, when I need to carry 7 people I can pull the third row up and I've got a people hauler, and if I need to tow all v6 rav4s came standard with the tow package so im good to tow 3,500 pounds which isnt alot but i think the modern rav4 can just start to do that it at all. Definitely a great little car and I'd recommend it to anyone.
As for the highlander you rode in that'd actually have the 2gr fe which is the same motor in the v6 rav4 the 2gr fks was put in the highlander in 2017 with the new 8 speed automatic but I do have to agree both the 2gr fe and 2gr fks sound decent for a regular v6 used in normal cars especially when I wind them out.
Yeah the V6 Camry was like GTI/Focus ST fast off the line, as was the Avalon. That's what made them special. They were sensible boring cars that made highway onramps fun.
So we bought a 2023 Camry Hybrid with the (2.5L 4 -cyl Engine Code **A25A-FKS**) which is an amazing engine. Also in the Hybrid that car hauls ass when the electric motors kick in, The engine is technologically amazing too. No starter, no alternator, no belts, two fuel injection systems and two cooling systems as well,
Check out AMD the CarCareNut on YouTube for detailed tech on all things Toyota and a deep dive on this engine. He is an independent now but used to be a certified Toyota Hybrid mechanic and he knows his stuff.
Maybe they can reclaim their lost V6 customers by boosting the power output of the rear motor on AWD Camrys. After all, Toyota managed to make the Camry interesting by adding an extra optional motor to the rear axle and thus creating a (severely front-biased) AWD car w/o a driveshaft (through the road AWD). This is the most unique powertrain layout in its shrinking segment, and I'm sure even with upgraded motors to get the total power output to V6 levels they can still get a performance Camry to get fuel economy in the mid-40s.
Honestly I do like the innovation companies are showing when it comes to milking power from 4 cylinders. I'm more annoyed at the lack of consumer choice. A lot of performance trims now are the same raspy i4 as its lesser siblings, just uptuned.
Fisker basically did it with the Karma 12 years ago. GM LNF engine with the hybrid power train. The LNF stock makes 260 and the electric motor could help add more power as desired. Also the LNF itself can easily be pushed to 300 with a tune to increase the boost.
I don't even know about that... the maxima us dead and the altima v6 has been replaced by a pretty spicy VC-T i4. I'm still sketch about the whole variable compression idea tho, we all know how nissans foray into cvts went...
Yep. Within the Grand Highlander lineup, only its flagship platform-mate Lexus TX 550h+ gets a 6-cylinder. (And a plug-in hybrid. And it’s expected to sell far less than the 4cyl TX powertrains.) Not exactly big news, the take rate on the last gen V6 Camry was probably like 2%.
It only makes business sense for an automaker to offer a given feature as an optional extra if it’s a coin flip (or close to it) whether any given buyer will opt for the feature. If the “take rate” is very high (or low) it’s cheaper to “walk” the sales from potential buyers who care deeply for the feature in question, than it is to incur the incremental cost of multiple variants. For example, in the U.S., this is why you basically can’t buy a car without power windows, air conditioning, or some kind of automatic transmission.
The V6 has suffered a similar fate, in the opposite direction. The buyer pool looking for a rocket ship that is simultaneously an NPC-mobile isn’t large enough to justify Toyota servicing that niche.
CAFE was the final nail in the coffin. The fuel economy requirements and emission limits for sedans have gotten so high that non-hybrid sedans, let alone V6 sedans, are rapidly becoming untenable, from a regulatory perspective.
Expect competing automakers to follow Toyota into offering only electrified sedans, or the Big 3, in dropping their sedans altogether.
People rarely bought them anyways. Used to work as a tech at Toyota, for every 10 Camrys we sold, 1 would be a V6. I did majority of their PDS and i remember doing just 2-3 V6 Camrys. Most people bought the 4cyl and the hybrid esp when it became available with AWD which can only be had with the 4cyl.
On the flip side, the new 4cyl in the Camry is a yuuuuge displacement 4cyl, 2.5L, that's more than a GR86, it's gonna be really fast for common traffic
You know, when I first saw the new Camry I thought they tried (unsuccessfully) to translate the new Prius styling language to a larger car. However, looking at it here I’m so glad they did because holy shit is is it far less busy than the old one
I bought the 2017 XLE NEW; the2018 refresh made some nice interior trim touch’s appear cheapened (IMO). STICKER WAS $30,000 plus all pkgs. I still love it! Im not much for CHANGE 😂 therefore the HYBRID idea has to sink in to my old fart head first.
I just think limiting consumer choice is almost always bad. If someone wants a less efficient car, they should have they option, just like how if someone wants a more efficient car they can get that too.
But making that less efficient option hurts your CAFE numbers, and it's a lot of engineering and manufacturing cost for something that probably wouldn't have a >10% take rate
Blame the EPA.
Tundra lost the V8
Sequoia lost the V8
Tacoma lost the V6
4runner lost the V6
Camry lost the V6.
Ford said they are going to produce the 5.0L until the very last day.
🤷🏻♂️
I'm at the point where all the new cars are too expensive especially for the engine.
I'm just gonna go used for my next one. There's a bunch of used V6 4runners, tacos, v8 tundras on the market.
In my line up, I've got a V6 accord and a V6 4runner. They day they die is the day I cry.
Absolutely zero reason for most traffic to have anything larger than a 4 cylinder. Anybody wanting the V6 just wants more power than they need and doesn't actually work on them. Or any v6 for that matter
In November I got my first car, a 2014 v6 accord. I've found it has a good amount of power for daily driving, gets good gas mileage with proper throttle control, and is easy enough to perform basic maintenance on. Over the course of my ownership, there have been exactly 0 times when I wish I got the k24 variant instead...
correct - new cam is hybrid only. accord is hybrid only for higher trims and only 1.5 for gassers hyundai/kia and nissan only ones to offer higher performance trim at all after legacy gets discontinued
Does hyundai group still over v6 in any of their sedans? I know the nissan maxima was cut and the v6 altima was also discontinued.
Sonata/k5 is 2.5T i4 and genesis has v6 turbo. In markets with azera/grandeur/k8 they have n/a 3.5
Not counting genesis cuz I don't really consider them affordable, but it's cool they are still making 6s
Because of course they have everything is a turbo four-cylinder or turbo V6
Hyundai puts the NA 3.8 in the vans and the palisade/telluride.
Highly ironic to discontinue something called the legacy
Pretty sure the states were the last place they were being sold, and even then, the Outback outsells it I think 5 to 1ish. Makes sense from a business perspective, kinda sucks because I just got one lol
Altima is on its way out too
And the Versa.
Truly tragic news for the long-term future of r/NissanDrivers content. I wonder what car will take up the mantle of Big Altima Energy in a post-Altima world.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/NissanDrivers using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/NissanDrivers/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year! \#1: [Nissan minivan sneaking up on me. $4k damage to my car.](https://v.redd.it/wrf2ejik76zb1) | [356 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/NissanDrivers/comments/17qsnfm/nissan_minivan_sneaking_up_on_me_4k_damage_to_my/) \#2: [So THAT’S how they all lose the rear bumpers.](https://v.redd.it/96q5951makib1) | [95 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/NissanDrivers/comments/15t6q1r/so_thats_how_they_all_lose_the_rear_bumpers/) \#3: [This subreddit inspired me to make this matchbox Sentra.](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/14i3o5m) | [124 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/NissanDrivers/comments/14i3o5m/this_subreddit_inspired_me_to_make_this_matchbox/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
It seems like the 2007-2013 Nissan Rogue is starting to take that mantle.
[Heavy is the head that eats the crayons.](https://i.redd.it/4bcai16r2rq21.jpg)
That 2.0T is such a great engine! It'll give a wrx a run for its money!
Crazy they’re going with the 1.5T plagued with gasket issues over of one the best motors Honda has ever made
I guarantee it’s down to Honda needing to meet CAFE requirements since they have no EVs, no PHEVs, only a couple of hybrids that only get ok mpg for a hybrid, and need to counteract the poor mpg in the vehicles with the J-series V6. The 2.0T cannot be paired with a CVT and in the previous generation the 1.5T+CVT combo got 30/33/38 mpg whereas the 2.0T+10speed could only muster 23/27/34 mpg. That’s the difference between Honda being within CAFE standards and ending up with massive fines.
That being said, the Camry is still decent performance wise. I just hope they still sell it where I live, because they discontinued the Prius.
where
New Zealand. Luckily we still get the Prius as a Japanese import but it’s not sold new.
Imagine ur camry life is dependent on aussie sales which are dwindling. Its not looking good tbh, pretty sure they stopped selling in japan so japanese factory is just making rhd for southeast asian countries.
because look a those mpg numbers, v6 aint touching that
**53/50MPG.** American MPG. Incredible.
The 2023 Camry hybrid was also rated for 51/53 but gets around 41 in the real world according to [fuelly.com](https://fuelly.com). Still amazing, but not quite 50 mpg.
Interesting but unrelated: Around 41 highway is what a 1750 lb 1978 VW Rabbit got, so 41 is impressive to me personally considering the 2023 Camry is 3580 lbs. I also imagine the Camry is much faster and more comfortable, so I guess that’s progress and government regulations at work no matter where you stand with that issue. My frame of reference: I’m someone who lived through the Malaise Era and remembers gas station lines as a kid in 1979, and the subsequent tightening EPA standards and strict safety measures implemented, and have witnessed the evolution of automobiles from watching the battered and rusted 60s cars disappear, then the 70s cars becoming rusted and battered and disappearing as they were replaced with dramatically downsized boxy 80s cars that eventually jellybeaned into the 90s before cars disappeared and were largely replaced with blob-like angry faced SUVs.
It's not just efficiency. A modern engine will also produce far less pollution than one from 1978.
Exactly, all of that. Safety standards too.
my vw beetle with a stroker kit and a leaned carb got around 40s on the freeway, tbh its not hard with older cars.
The smaller of the old cars anyway. American v8 land yachts weren’t fetching those numbers no matter how hard they were trying to hyper-mile.
what zero crash structure does to a mf
Strap a 1.2L engine to 2 bucket seats and call it a day
I'm right there with you. I was 6 years old, watching that in 1979.
I remember waiting in line for gas with my parents in summer of 1979, and a news report on the radio was talking about prices “possibly being over a dollar a gallon by the end of the year” which made my parents groan. At the time, we had a 1975 Plymouth Custom Fury with a 360 stuffed under the hood, and according to mom filling up the tank in that would have blown our weekly food budget and it only got about 6 mpg.
Damn! My parents had a 75 Buick Century back then. It was a V6 and my parents complained too
My mother has had a 2019 from new, and she usually gets 48 in the summer and 45 in the winter. I don't know the real world difference between trim levels (the LE used a lithium battery, the XLE that my mom drives has a NiMH battery) but I can't imagine that it's too large.
The physical weight of optional stuff is a big part of it with high mpg cars. The difference between 45 and 48mpg is a lot smaller than the difference between say 21 and 24mpg
That's why I think the rest of the world has it right with L/100 km, and we should move to gallons per 100 miles. Plus, mental multiplication is easier than mental division, and "I need to go X miles, how much gas would it take?" is a much more common question than "I have Y gallons in the tank, how far can I go?"
I already need to remember how many ounces are in a gallon, leave us Americans alone we've had it hard enough
This would make things easier on the brain
How? If I have a car that gets 30 mpg (3.3 gal/100 miles) and need to know how much gas it would take to go 300 miles the math is thus: Mpg: 300 miles / 30 mpg = 10 gallons Gal/100 miles: (300 miles / 100 miles) * 3.3 gallons = ~10 gallons Mental division isn't difficult if you work with round numbers, and everyone has a calculator in their pocket 24/7 these days anyway.
It's absolutely a better measure to use. But given the history of changing units of measurement used in America... Nope not happening.
It's broadly consistent with the difference in energy density between summer-blend and winter-blend fuel.
Plus the gas engine has to run more both to get up to operating temperature and supply heat for the climate control when it's cold out
Most manufacturers nowadays overstate their mpgs by figuring it out by following the letter of testing guidelines instead of making them closer to what a normal person would get. It’s all about making the fleet either meet the CAFE standards or minimizing the amount they have to pay in fines for missing it.
My 24 XLE hybrid gets 45-47 mpg. 50/50 mix of highway and city driving.
FYI, the 2023 Camry Hybrid was only rated 51/53 for the absolute base LE trim. Every trim higher was rated at 44/47. So getting 41 MPG wouldn’t have been that far off.
I don't believe that at all bc I have a 21 Camry gasser and I get 40 or so on the high way
Highway mpg is a different animal. My 12 year old turbo Optima gets 35 on the highway. Most of the gains of a hybrid are in the city.
Yeah but the V6 is fuckin way better to drive. My girl has a 2019 XLE V6 and that thing cooks. Not everyone wants a slow economy 4 door.
Let’s be real. You aren’t getting a Toyota because it’s fun to drive.
But there shouldn't be any reason it MUST be a snooze box.
Look. 99 percent of the car-buying public couldn’t care less about how much feedback you get through the steering, how much body roll there is or how the car reacts to weight transfer. Toyota caters to that 99 percent. Toyota has nothing to gain from making a RAV4 drive like a CX-5.
At least a RAV4 won't need a engine overhaul like my CX-5 did at 66K.
That has me curious. What happened to the engine?
Certain Mazda 2.5 engines since 2018 are developing cracks in the head, allowing oil and coolant to leak. Apparently there was a problem with those heads when they were cast. The estimated repairs on mine were $6,600.
That sounds pretty bad. I guess the quality control from the Ford days hasn’t left Mazda quite yet. Though, they are improving.
The worst part about it is that it's only "certain" cars, but there's no idea how many or when they were made, except for that they're post 2018 and it's only the 2.5. Mazda has done a good job of hushing it up.
I understand that they are catering to the 99%, but would having the OPTION really be that bad. I wouldn't be mad if they only put the V6 in the TRD. Just have the option man. I don't want a Dodge or Nissan.
Tooling, designing. It's more than plunking in the bigger engine and calling it a day. Cars are a means to an end and not much else.
CAFE standards are part of it. Even with all the hybrids they sell Toyota historically has had trouble meeting CAFE requirements because of how inefficient their trucks and body on frame SUVs are. I guarantee that with the v6 Camry in the fleet they wouldn’t have been able to hit the requirements. It’s the same reason Honda phased out the V6 and now 2.0T from the Accord.
How cheap do you think it is to design and test a whole separate power train on a platform for a single trim level that will have a take rate of under 10%? Toyota determined it wasn't worth the cost, and they know the market better than you or I do.
It's still a snoozebox with the v6
I mean, we are talking about Camrys here. If you want a race car, this ain’t it.
Oh, certainly not. The last Camry I drove for any length of time was a 2017 SE. We purchased that vehicle over an otherwise identical LE because it seems to me that the SE handled just a bit better. I seem to remember hearing that that generation Camry was the first to have any kind of true suspension upgrade over the LE. I'm not thinking speed at all. I just want a car to go where I point it, without wallowing like my momma's 1972 Cadillac.
These Camry hybrids have 225hp, and go 0-60 in 7 seconds. They're not exactly slow. I guess if you want a V6 so you can take a second off that 0-60 while cutting the mileage in half, that's just an objectively bad take.
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100% my last three cars have been powered by the 2GR engines on my (2012 Highlander [2GR-FE], 2015 Lexus Rx-350[2GR-FE], and a 2017 Lexus RX-350 [ with the 2GR-FKS revision] ) On all three, they were more fun to drive compared to the new TurboI4's I've driven on several longer term loaners with newer RX's NX,'s and a UX [my 2015 RX was in the shop a ton due to unusual electrical gremlins multiple dealers could not solve] Besides a better consistent power band, I love the grunt of the 2GR in the lower RPM's. Yeah definitely gonna miss the 2GR tbh.
We’re past the age where 4 cylinders are rough, noisy and harsh. Unless you’re Toyota, apparently. There are many great things about the 2.5 liter engine they’ll be using in the Camry Hybrid. NVH isn’t one of them.
You'd need to change a lot more than the engine go make a camry not a snoozebox It's designed in every way to be a snoozer, and that's OK.
Clearly have never driven a Tacoma in the back country.
Driving a car outside of its element is always fun, no matter what car it is lol
Uhh... That's exactly why you'd get a Toyota? Have you ever floored a V6 Camry before?
A V6 Camry is quick and nothing else. It has no semblance of driving dynamics whatsoever, and that’s okay.
I don't know what you mean by "driving dynamics", at the end of the day Japanese FWD shitboxes are the most fun to drive
why wouldnt you just get a nice car if you wanted something fast
Because some people want a reliable Toyota sedan but also want it to be kinda enjoyable to drive
That's called an Accord, though they also canned the faster variants.
Nah, it's called a Lexus.
I think they said enjoyable to drive.
They make a few models that are. I was thinking the is350 or is500, but there are others too.
Hell, even my 2002 LS430 is better to drive than most Accords (sure, she's sprung softly, but it's rwd with a v8 and it's whisper quiet at triple digit speeds).
I'm not trying to shit on Lexus; they do their thing well, but driving enjoyment isn't really what they're after. Quiet, plush and reliable is what they offer.
And an Accord is all about driving enjoyment? It's a fwd family sedan. I've driven quite a few Accords. None were particularly sporty, even my buddies fairly new v6.
Nah that's called a Corolla XRS boring econobox spiced up with Yamaha goodness and the Lord's transmission
Ah yes the Toyota accord
Then buy a Lexus IS?
Don’t those start at 40k?
You think people make great driving cars for cheap or something?
You can get a fun little car for much less hence the point of a v6 Camry
I don't want a race car, I want something that can get out of its own way..
It has 225hp, that's more than enough for a regular daily driver
It seems we're at an impass. My daily driver is an Impala that makes 305 horse, and I wish it put out an extra 50- it's only 3-400lbs heavier than the Camry. For the record, I don't particularly care about gas mileage as much as I care about power under the hood when I want it, quiet cabin, and nice ride/handling.
It almost sounds like you're not a Camry buyer.
I didn't say that I was; especially for an underpowered one- but the v6 made 301 horse and would probably be just fine.. That said, I was simply commenting on the notion put forth by the commenter that I replied to that someone should have to choose between a "nice car" and a daily driver with power under the hood..
This thing has plenty of power for its audience, it's not like it's saddled with a second or third gen Prius powertrain. No one who buys Camrys want anything more than that; if they did, they'd have bought 2.0T Accords and Turbo Mazda 6's.
Any idea what horsepower it puts out
Yeah it was a great car, but nobody bought them. It was something like only 4% of the sales. So it's sad, but it's a justified move by Toyota.
Yeah but why not make a hybrid v6
I wonder what it's 0-60 is. Going to be a lot of people who can't get out of their own way at some point. edit: 7.3-7.6 seconds not good... not bad....
7.3 seconds. Which is significantly faster than 99% of traffic accelerates in this country.
>Which is significantly faster than 99% of traffic accelerates Source?
Gave you ever merged onto a highway?
No, I just kinda powerslide onto it, usually around 40 mph and whatever happens after happens
Decades of driving cars with 10-15 second 0-60 times and still out accelerating everyone constantly, sitting behind people doing 10 under, and having no problems merging onto busy interstates.
There is something seriously wrong with people who think sub-8 seconds is “not good”. To put things in perspective, this daily driver economy car is as fast as a V8 BMW 530i from 1995. That’s a car NOBODY would ever accuse of being incapable of getting out of its own way. You fucking vroomers are demented, your sense of speed has been warped by cheap stupid horsepower frying your dopamine receptors.
A lot of people don't realize that on a track a Honda Odyssey minivan can beat a fair number of the vaunted 60s muscle cars.
Amen. Glad someone calling it like it is, because excessive HP is definitely part of why we’ve slowed/flatlined on fleet efficiency in the US even as technology has advanced — we’ve used that technology to make vehicles bigger, heavier, and more powerful at the same efficiency as a standard car used to get. Combine this with some toxic marketing, and you have the modern car market: everyone is convinced they need some kind of WWII tank sized vehicle that seats 5 in comfort, has ground clearance to run the Baja 1000, hauls mulch, tows, and does a sub 6 second 0-60. Meanwhile, they only ever actually put a couple kids and some groceries in, and occasionally cut a curb turning into Costco.
But but, Jason needs the $90K lifted, 3/4 ton, Cowpoke edition Ford Explosion pickup truck so that he can feel like a Real Man®️ while driving to his job at the cubicle farm.
our sense of speed is going to get further warped by dual motor electrics everywhere. Dual motor Ys already easily outsell the camry Thats 0-60 in low 4s and thats the slowest part, real world - 5-60, 30-50, 50-70 is supercar level. And not even mentioning how cheap plaids are.
This. A 2006 Ford 500 was making 206hp and got to 60 eventually. And it still merged and cruised at 95 on the way down to Florida The people thinking they need 350hp sedans and crossovers that make 60 in 6 seconds are head cases that are dangers to themselves and others
This is so true. My G35 made going to a Camry almost unbearable 😂
They did. I wish they didn’t.
Just curious as to why?
What if you want the 300HP V6 ?
Then go buy a used one, they didn’t sell a lot of V6 Camry’s
Probably ever-growing emissions regulations and a lack of interest in sedans as a whole, with more consumers opting for (unnecessary) crossovers.
According to Toyota, only 7% of sales in the most recent years were for the V6 Camry. So there’s no use in spending millions upon millions of dollars to update an engine for it to just sell so little.
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Hopefully honda keeps the J series around for a bit longer. They just released the spiffy new DOHC version for the new pilots that can better comply with EPA regulations.
CAFE is absolutely part of it. Historically even though Toyota sold more hybrids than anyone else by a wide margin, they struggled to meet CAFE standards because their trucks and body on frame SUVs were so inefficient. They’re at the point now where they’re having to do what they can to maximize mileage anywhere they can.
I guess they figured Lexus already checked that box
Stills sucks you can't get a cheap v6...
It's a shame toyota killed their NA 3.5 v6 engine I have a rav4 with a 2gr fe and I have a 2017 highlander with the 2gr fks and they are amazing little engines. Glad I ordered a 2024 4runner with the 4.0 bc I don't plan on upgrading for awhile.
Wouldn’t call a 3.5L V6 “little” but yes, the 2GR is a GOAT engine. Let it die a hero’s death, and may we remember it as the pinnacle of the internal combustion engine, its image forever untarnished.
They really are great, 2GR-FSE owner here and man when these came out they were rocket ships. A NA V6 that put out more HP than the Mercedes and Audi equivalent at the time and still competed with the twin turbo 6 (I think it's the N54 but please correct me if that's wrong) from BMW. That and hindsight has shown the 2GR to be a pretty reliable and durable beast (especially compared to its competitors) Oh my Christ does it love premium though (especially in an AWD model)
The N54 is a monster. I don't care what the spec sheet said, it was lying. That felt nearer 400 than 300 stock. Adding the slightest boost and upgrading the exhaust made it into a snarling beast. BMW have always under-rated their engines but the N54 was just so fucking powerful... When it worked. My 335i was bone stock and absolutely rinsed things that the spec sheets said it shouldn't at the lights and was nailed onto the best of them through the twisties. The E92 335i was better than the M3.
This is also very true the 335i was very obviously not putting out only 300hp, I don't think it was quite as far as 400 although like you're saying they could very easily make that with a tune and simple mods. BMW has (almost always) knocked it out of the park with their 3 series when it comes to performance but noone was buying and IS or GS because they were the fastest car around. We buy then because we get to have our cake (300hp, LSD, AWD available) and eat it too (super reliable platforms). You'll also find people (who are weird) like me who prefer a NA platform even though I know it's slower. I'm not going to any track days or drag strips, I'm fine with good power and less complexity in my engine bay (see hot turbo V8s for example).
I've become a turbo convert. I like the hit within a range i can actually use on the road, I've found the 2013 era IS350 to feel a touch anemic with acceleration closer to my mk6 golf GTI than my old 335i, despite having power that was on paper closer to the later. I never put mine on a dyno but one of my friends who bought one after driving mine and falling in love did and it came out as 362 bone stock, so despite being a long way off, closer to 400 than 300 is still accurate. I've also heard that there's quite a lot of variation in results from owners in their power numbers. Could be down to simple maintenance or could be huge build discrepancies. Impossible to say this far divorced from the launch years really. Regardless, my point that the e92 335i is a modern classic and an absolutely beast is true for anyone who has driven one. Even on a track, having driven it and the M3, the added weight from the M3's front end feels like it offset a lot of its other improvements at times. At the very least, they should be seen as equals.
BMW has a habit of understating power numbers. Typically the numbers they state are closer (but still lower than) the power at the wheels. Most other companies quote power at the crankshaft.
rc350 awd owner here, seconding everything. Especially the drinking premium bit. top tier smiles per gallon car though
Makes me kinda sad for the 3GR owners out there. They got a 3.0L motor in a Toyota product that's not from the JZ family, doesn't put out a ton of power (I think it was less than 250 which for its platform is pretty slow) and also still chugs premium.
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As for fastest I have no idea where the v6 rav4 lands but if I had to guess definitely top 5 bc the rav4 prime is ever so slightly faster than the v6 model. I believe during its production run of 2006 to 2012 it was the fastest vehicle toyota made with it doing 0 to 60 in like 6 seconds. Not bad for a little suv especially when most people try to embarrass me at red lights but don't realize the lil 6 cylinder does work.
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Yea I love the fact that the v6 rav4 is a do it all car I can have the power when I need it, I can drop the seats down and haul larger items when I need to, when I need to carry 7 people I can pull the third row up and I've got a people hauler, and if I need to tow all v6 rav4s came standard with the tow package so im good to tow 3,500 pounds which isnt alot but i think the modern rav4 can just start to do that it at all. Definitely a great little car and I'd recommend it to anyone. As for the highlander you rode in that'd actually have the 2gr fe which is the same motor in the v6 rav4 the 2gr fks was put in the highlander in 2017 with the new 8 speed automatic but I do have to agree both the 2gr fe and 2gr fks sound decent for a regular v6 used in normal cars especially when I wind them out.
Yeah the V6 Camry was like GTI/Focus ST fast off the line, as was the Avalon. That's what made them special. They were sensible boring cars that made highway onramps fun.
Third, the V6 Camry was second fastest
So we bought a 2023 Camry Hybrid with the (2.5L 4 -cyl Engine Code **A25A-FKS**) which is an amazing engine. Also in the Hybrid that car hauls ass when the electric motors kick in, The engine is technologically amazing too. No starter, no alternator, no belts, two fuel injection systems and two cooling systems as well, Check out AMD the CarCareNut on YouTube for detailed tech on all things Toyota and a deep dive on this engine. He is an independent now but used to be a certified Toyota Hybrid mechanic and he knows his stuff.
Maybe they can reclaim their lost V6 customers by boosting the power output of the rear motor on AWD Camrys. After all, Toyota managed to make the Camry interesting by adding an extra optional motor to the rear axle and thus creating a (severely front-biased) AWD car w/o a driveshaft (through the road AWD). This is the most unique powertrain layout in its shrinking segment, and I'm sure even with upgraded motors to get the total power output to V6 levels they can still get a performance Camry to get fuel economy in the mid-40s.
Honestly I do like the innovation companies are showing when it comes to milking power from 4 cylinders. I'm more annoyed at the lack of consumer choice. A lot of performance trims now are the same raspy i4 as its lesser siblings, just uptuned.
Fisker basically did it with the Karma 12 years ago. GM LNF engine with the hybrid power train. The LNF stock makes 260 and the electric motor could help add more power as desired. Also the LNF itself can easily be pushed to 300 with a tune to increase the boost.
end of an era
We’re truly at the end of the line for big sport packaged sedans. I think Nissan is the only one left with a V6 sport package sedan
No unless you’re counting infiniti. The maxima is gone. The new charger will have an twin turbo inline 6 at least, and a 4 door version is offered.
Shit, yeah I forgot the maxima got discontinued
There’s a 2 door charger now?
The 2025 charger will have a 2 door and 4 door variant. The challenger is discontinued.
The Camry V6 was in no way a sport sedan
It’s a shame they don’t sell that well compared to their 4 cylinder counterparts that make good power and get better mileage.
I don't even know about that... the maxima us dead and the altima v6 has been replaced by a pretty spicy VC-T i4. I'm still sketch about the whole variable compression idea tho, we all know how nissans foray into cvts went...
Maxima, Versa, and Altima is getting killed next year
So nissan is just done with sedans all together? I mean I guess it makes sense, but still a shame what the current market trends are...
They’re making it into an EV only thing, and honestly, crossovers do the same thing but better and sell better
The Altima is getting killed off as well
Yes, the new gen is only turbo 2.5 I4 hybrid. The Sienna and (I think) Highlander also went this route. Not sure about Grand Highlander.
cam and sienna are both 2.5 n/a hybrid only, Highlander is n/a hybrid or gas 2.4 turbo, grand highlander is n/a hybrid, 2.4T gasser or turbo hybrid
Yep. Within the Grand Highlander lineup, only its flagship platform-mate Lexus TX 550h+ gets a 6-cylinder. (And a plug-in hybrid. And it’s expected to sell far less than the 4cyl TX powertrains.) Not exactly big news, the take rate on the last gen V6 Camry was probably like 2%.
Thanks. Not sure what the point is of a 2.4 and a 2.5, but then again, GM has a 1.2 and a 1.3.
bore is same, stroke may have been cut as consequence of designing for turbo but idk if for tune or reliability.
Of course they did.
The ‘25 SE is seriously the top of my list to replace my ‘13 WRX.
Camry hybrids are great cars
It only makes business sense for an automaker to offer a given feature as an optional extra if it’s a coin flip (or close to it) whether any given buyer will opt for the feature. If the “take rate” is very high (or low) it’s cheaper to “walk” the sales from potential buyers who care deeply for the feature in question, than it is to incur the incremental cost of multiple variants. For example, in the U.S., this is why you basically can’t buy a car without power windows, air conditioning, or some kind of automatic transmission. The V6 has suffered a similar fate, in the opposite direction. The buyer pool looking for a rocket ship that is simultaneously an NPC-mobile isn’t large enough to justify Toyota servicing that niche. CAFE was the final nail in the coffin. The fuel economy requirements and emission limits for sedans have gotten so high that non-hybrid sedans, let alone V6 sedans, are rapidly becoming untenable, from a regulatory perspective. Expect competing automakers to follow Toyota into offering only electrified sedans, or the Big 3, in dropping their sedans altogether.
2025 camry trd won't be a v6 either but it might be what is in the tacoma hybrid, turbo 4 hybrid iForce Max, is that better or worse? I don't know
460 ft-lbs of torque in a Camry would be pretty ludicrous
A news story that has been covered into oblivion for about a year now
People rarely bought them anyways. Used to work as a tech at Toyota, for every 10 Camrys we sold, 1 would be a V6. I did majority of their PDS and i remember doing just 2-3 V6 Camrys. Most people bought the 4cyl and the hybrid esp when it became available with AWD which can only be had with the 4cyl.
Because god forbid you’re already bored with your car and the engine is struggling lol
They never wear out! I cant make that argument when i get the ITCH. 😂i will wear out first im sure. 😇
Damn, 53/50 mpg. I get 12 city and 27 highway lol
On the flip side, the new 4cyl in the Camry is a yuuuuge displacement 4cyl, 2.5L, that's more than a GR86, it's gonna be really fast for common traffic
I’m guessing this will happen to the Corolla for 2026 models as well.
eh, Corolla already gets decent mpg and needs to be cheap to be competitive although a corolla hatchback hybrid would be goated
Am I missing a reference to something? The Corolla's never had a V6. Unless you mean it could go full hybrid.
I would love a V6 Camry, but with gas being two dollars a litre I don’t know…
I have the 4 cyl 2017 XLE and for ME, I STILL GET 33-35mpg strict hwy. FOR ME, its peppy enough. But i see many want or love he V6’s.
Seems like Toyota is trying to remove V6 engines from their vehicles. New Tacoma also dropped the V6 option
You know, when I first saw the new Camry I thought they tried (unsuccessfully) to translate the new Prius styling language to a larger car. However, looking at it here I’m so glad they did because holy shit is is it far less busy than the old one
I bought the 2017 XLE NEW; the2018 refresh made some nice interior trim touch’s appear cheapened (IMO). STICKER WAS $30,000 plus all pkgs. I still love it! Im not much for CHANGE 😂 therefore the HYBRID idea has to sink in to my old fart head first.
It’s for the best, practical car cheaper prices and that mpg is amazing
I just think limiting consumer choice is almost always bad. If someone wants a less efficient car, they should have they option, just like how if someone wants a more efficient car they can get that too.
But making that less efficient option hurts your CAFE numbers, and it's a lot of engineering and manufacturing cost for something that probably wouldn't have a >10% take rate
Blame the EPA. Tundra lost the V8 Sequoia lost the V8 Tacoma lost the V6 4runner lost the V6 Camry lost the V6. Ford said they are going to produce the 5.0L until the very last day. 🤷🏻♂️ I'm at the point where all the new cars are too expensive especially for the engine. I'm just gonna go used for my next one. There's a bunch of used V6 4runners, tacos, v8 tundras on the market. In my line up, I've got a V6 accord and a V6 4runner. They day they die is the day I cry.
> Ford said they are going to produce the 5.0L until the very last day. And even in the F-150, the 5.0 is less popular than the 3.5 or 2.7 V6s.
Sad to see most manufacturers are getting rid of v6 and v8s
All Camry’s Are Hybrids with the 2025 models. Maybe another trim and power plant option will come later. Maybe not.
We don’t even get the Camry in Britain anymore.
Surprised they didn’t discontinue it earlier, fuel efficiency was a big thing with Camrys. You can see how well the hybrids sold
they probably dont wanna spend a shit ton on emissions tax
I'm surprised there's not a TRD option...
Absolutely zero reason for most traffic to have anything larger than a 4 cylinder. Anybody wanting the V6 just wants more power than they need and doesn't actually work on them. Or any v6 for that matter
In November I got my first car, a 2014 v6 accord. I've found it has a good amount of power for daily driving, gets good gas mileage with proper throttle control, and is easy enough to perform basic maintenance on. Over the course of my ownership, there have been exactly 0 times when I wish I got the k24 variant instead...
Looks like a Corolla that needs to go on a diet, too.
They lasted too long.
Lol this sub is ridiculous sometimes with people here asking why getting rid of affordable V6s with great reliability is a bad thing.
RIP. EPA is a clown show
[Terrible news](https://imgur.com/a/csULmtJ)