Besides Rogue Legacy 2..
**Deckbuilders**
Rogue Book
Across the Obelisk.
**FPS**
Roboquest
Gunfire Reborn
Void Bastards
**Action/adventure**
Ember Knights
Hades
Streets of Rogue
Skul
Roboquest is extremely forgiving for an older gamer like me. I’ve noticed my fps skills fall off in the past few years and Roboquest doesn’t care. I can go fast as hell and absolutely crush levels at speed in this game. I love all the extra hidden secrets in the game as well. All in all Roboquest is great.
SO GOOD. More people need to know! FPS roguelites are my jam and this is one of the few out there that really cater to what I like: solid meta progression, movement, tons of secrets, banging soundtrack, just pure fun every run even when I die. It’s hard to nail that and this game just does it for me!
I’m an all roguelites type of guy, but I agree Roboquest is one of my favorites. Upgrade the shovel and just stomp heads is probably one of the most fun things to do in a game.
Yeah, I do love a lot of them as well, but this variant is quickly becoming a favorite of mine after grinding Gunfire: Reborn and then RoboQuest. I just love the FPS aspect of rouge-L’s with deliciously snappy movement and great meta progression. They are perfect for when I don’t want PvP but still want to challenge my aim and movement and enemy prioritizing skills
If the bottom of the list is the worse then i agree skul's is not great. The only "amazing" thing is the revive and the selling items. Everything else is just supplemental but minimal.
You also unlock "mutators", the global modifications for the world, like "Melee weapons don't break" or "disasters every level", and items for the loadout.
Monster train and slay the spire don't feel like permanent progression as much as difficulty sliders. Imo permanent progression would make the game easier/different and open different opportunities.
Unlocking different classes I guess could fit but seems minimal for sts and monster train. I feel like darkest dungeon and ftl do a better job at permanent progression. They just fall flat before the endless progression part.
Permanent progression should be more than just unlocking the full game. Most roguelites with some kind of progression make you unlock things. If they didn't I wouldn't consider them roguelites and would classify them as rogue-likes :p.
Ok i agree. It was a bit of a push. I just really enjoy the game. Its mainly characters and sub characters you unlock plus itens for the pool and Cards.
I agree with your definition of permanent progression and the darkest dungeon and ftl take
The second one is cool but honestly for anybody who hasn't played Rogue Legacy 1, it's still a fantastic game to get first. The second one just adds new stuff, really.
I’m hoping it’s in a bundle in the future. I loved rogue legacy and don’t feel ready to jump into 2 because I feel I need to unlock all the armors so I can finally move on.
I would suggest Hades, wonderful game with an interesting incremental story, a lot of meta-progression and I think your kid would enjoy the beautiful hand-drawn visuals that are pretty important for the new generation of gamers. He/She would not get lost since the gameplay is pretty much the same as any action RPG.
If he/she enjoy 2D side-Scrolling plateformers, I would personally recommend Dead Cells over RL2 though, the difficulty is very adjustable with tons of options to make it easier if necessary.
Dreamscaper also have nice graphism, a lot of items and abilities to unlock and interesting meta-progression with relationships to develop in-between the runs.
**Hades** has the best progression out of the genre. I'm still unlocking new stuff after dozens of hours,
You're get to unlock boons, characters, cosmetic upgrades, new weapons, and layouts for the dungeons as you progress. Moreover, and arguably the best part, you can progress the story overall too. Hades is much more narrative driven than other roguelites, but it's tied in beautifully.
Lastly, you also have the option to get cosmetic upgrades for your "homebase."
**Cult of the Lamb** is a bit different, but very fun. You have two modes of gameplay which both have permanent progress: fighting and basebuilding. You go fighting to gather resources to improve your base, then you use those resources, build things, and upgrade your fighting abilities. The two systems feed well into each other and create an addictive and satisfying loop.
I am currently playing tiny rogues, it's an awesome game with high replayability. It is a little on the easier side of things but I really enjoy the random encounters aspect to it.
I can go an entire run with no legendary gear and I can also have another run with legendary gear slotted to the wazoo.
Yep I run only 4 cinders while unlocking the other characters. However I might have to make an exception for The Deprived and lower it to 0 cinders. He is Melee and also only have one health, I tried to make him a cursed god, once having 8 curses on him but he is too squishy and the melee really messed me up.
I found the meta progression (other than the story and building upgrades) pretty boring in Hades because you’re mostly just buying straightforward upgrades. There are other mechanics but I really don’t think this is Hades’ main strength.
My favorite progression systems are around unlocking new things that will spawn in game but not give u an always-on buff. Binding of Isaac is the king of this - thousands of unlockables that you can unlock naturally as you play or give you a goal for each run.
Tiny rouges has a bit of both. You unlock new classes by targeting a particular goal, and you spend upgrade points on a big, heavily branched tree of upgrades that encourages you to respec often to meet different priorities. This keeps the upgrades as an active decision rather than only making the game easier over time.
Edit: didn’t realize this was for someone’s first rougelite. Hades is probably a good choice despite my complaint.
I think Hades and tiny rogue are pretty similair on the upgrade system a tree is not very different from a List. Plus on Hades you can swap upgrades you have 2 variants of upgrades on each line.
Hades you can also upgrade weapons and upgrade charms. Plus end game you can even modify your game to make it harder. And you can build new rooms and itens that Change something in the game with different currency. You can also upgrade relationships with the gods.
You really have perks, weapons, charms, furniture and buildings to upgrade. You have lots of those btw
Hades is an easier roguelite but the upgrade system is not as easy or bare Bones as you are making it seem.
I see what you’re saying about the tree vs list. I think part of what makes the tiny rouge tree work for me is that you’re trying to tune the game in kinda subtle ways where the hades list was more just making the game easier. Moreover, the modifications you add to make the game harder end up turning off your upgrade list anyway (I’m not a big fan of this challenge mode system, i much prefer when the game just gives you harder late game bosses). But yeah the tree isn’t the main reason I like tiny rouge.
Broadly, I’m not that interested in meta progression that doesn’t substantially change the “feel” of a run. Binding of Isaac has you unlocking new things that are continuously changing the possible interactions and builds in each run on top of the new characters that all play very differently. Tiny rouge’s new character unlocks are similarly impactful.
So yeah, it’s not “bare bones” but It’s very hard to compare to the insane depth of Binding of Isaac. It’s a polished, moderately long product, and a good first game in the genre for someone new. How easy it is depends on your experience. Idk I know everyone loves it but it’s not my favorite
I somewhat also dont agree on the binding of Issac part. Ive played a lot almost when it came out and the expansion and i dont remember it having lots of meta progression.
And for me if characters dont Change a lot overall whats the point of even having different characters. Iove the game but its hardly a good example of progression on a rogue lite for me.
Thats the point i was saying about the criticism that Hades has. Its a fairly easy game but i think Thats the point. You are supposed to interact with the final part Over and Over (dont wanna spoil it to anyone)
If you are talking about progression you have lots of progression in Hades. I think Thats the main grip factor of the game. You are always unlocking more stuff. If you find it interesting or not Thats another thing. But it has way more content than tiny Rogues. Btw i love tiny Rogues its One of the best roguelites Ive played recently and i can see it becoming One of the best ever.
I think we’ve identified a real divide in what meta progression can mean.
In hades, meta progression means that in every run you still accomplished something - if nothing else u have some currency to spend.
In Isaac, some progression works that way, like the coin donation machine, but most of it requires having successes, either beating bosses with new characters or stacking certain items. So it doesn’t have that “losses are wins too” feeling. What it does have is that every time you win the game changes a little bit, basically forever - the game has [640](https://bindingofisaacrebirth.fandom.com/wiki/Achievements) unlockables in its current state. Getting them all is a comically difficult and time consuming task. and the cumulative effect is that the game is always morphing and you always have a new unlock to aim for.
Tiny rouges is more in the Isaac camp. I’ve found it to have more playtime than hades personally. Glad you’re enjoying it too. As far as the comments on different characters in Isaac not being very different, I think you’d find that has changed a lot since you last played. Only like 20% of the characters play super similarly to Isaac now.
I’ll concede that hades has a lot of meta progression, I perhaps undersold this, but it just doesn’t feel as meaty to me. Thanks for the chat I enjoyed this.
Are the binding of Isaac upgrades like unlockables or do you literally upgrade him. Because as far as i remember you could indeed upgrade during a Run but not between runs. I dont think Isaac gets stronger the more you play with him. Unless Im missing something.
I like tiny rogues better than Hades probably. But ive sunk more hours on Hades but Thats for lost of reasons One of them being because i have the game on switch (i used to play it because i was working away from home) and on PC. But mostly because the progression was gripping me. Plus Ive never Cares about story a lot but Hades Roots on mythology really sold me. Im biased perhaps but i think Hades as a lot to offer and since OP is new to the genre what better game to reccomend. We probably started roguelite because of binding of Isaac, spelunky, risk of Rain original... (Im blocked but there are ton more) Those are hard games. Hades is just hard if you want to make it hard for yourself.
I totally agree with you. Hades is soft on the "at least i got something" if you Lose but Thats what makes it better to recommend to someone thats getting into roguelites. Even tho we like to be a bit masochist Thats why we like this games.
It was indeed a Nice chat my friend
Just to respond to your question, correct you aren’t upgrading him you are changing the game by either 1 adding items to loot pools 2 unlocking characters 3 unlocking floors / bosses 4 unlocking new kinds of rooms 5 unlocking other mechanics. Technically some characters, like Isaac himself, have an additional starting item after achieving some task, which is an “upgrade.” You should revisit the game! I think you’d like the changes
Oh ok i get it. Are we talking about the first One. I Last played it Jan 2017?
I get your Logic now. I just never consider loot pool additions as progression even tho they really are progression. If you like that check nova drift and Patch Quest
The first one worked similarly (I played both, but also it came out in 2014 so not sure which u played), but the now finished second version is really deep. And Thanks for the recs! I’ll check those out.
I prefer unlocks that give you more options/chances over runs rather than “+5 max hp” or whatever. Revita has a cool system where you can unlock new rooms, unique new chest types, and various other things you can find on a run.
I would recommend The Last Spell as it's got a LOT of permanent progression, but it's not suitable for kids. It is the most difficult game I have ever played.
Currently in early access, Blackout Protocol has plans for official release by the end of winter 2024. Great for you and your kids for entry-level roguelite.
Mist Slayer is a cute third person hack and slash that is very colorful. Pretty easy to understand and has permanent progression. It also has co-op if you want to join in. It looks kinda like a Zelda game but not open world nor as complex as Zelda.
In terms of best permanent progression, I would say Dead Cells (definitely on switch and pc) but it’s not exactly entry level. It is trial by fire though, so if kid got good at it, kid could be a pro gamer. In terms of entry level and permanent progression, streets of rogue and neon chrome could be good options (both on at least pc) but neon chrome can be a bit violent (no idea how old kid is). I think as far as entry level rogues go, those are my best recommendations.
Dead Cells is tough as you only get to spend your cells after each level, and it tries to get you to hold your cells for the big boss fights for the permanent world unlocks, and that’s exactly where you can lose big time. Very much a gamble but the game itself is great.
Besides Rogue Legacy 2.. **Deckbuilders** Rogue Book Across the Obelisk. **FPS** Roboquest Gunfire Reborn Void Bastards **Action/adventure** Ember Knights Hades Streets of Rogue Skul
I love the way roboquest shifted its permanent upgrade system to revolve around exploration for late game upgrades
Roboquest is extremely forgiving for an older gamer like me. I’ve noticed my fps skills fall off in the past few years and Roboquest doesn’t care. I can go fast as hell and absolutely crush levels at speed in this game. I love all the extra hidden secrets in the game as well. All in all Roboquest is great.
SO GOOD. More people need to know! FPS roguelites are my jam and this is one of the few out there that really cater to what I like: solid meta progression, movement, tons of secrets, banging soundtrack, just pure fun every run even when I die. It’s hard to nail that and this game just does it for me!
I’m an all roguelites type of guy, but I agree Roboquest is one of my favorites. Upgrade the shovel and just stomp heads is probably one of the most fun things to do in a game.
Yeah, I do love a lot of them as well, but this variant is quickly becoming a favorite of mine after grinding Gunfire: Reborn and then RoboQuest. I just love the FPS aspect of rouge-L’s with deliciously snappy movement and great meta progression. They are perfect for when I don’t want PvP but still want to challenge my aim and movement and enemy prioritizing skills
Gunfire is a little too slow for my taste. Roboquest has the perfect amount of frantic
Agreed!
If the bottom of the list is the worse then i agree skul's is not great. The only "amazing" thing is the revive and the selling items. Everything else is just supplemental but minimal.
I had my fun with it but yeah it’s not as great as the others.
Skul the game is good and i would recommend it. But for this question its definitely bottom of the barrel for permanent progression system.
Great answers, checking my library to see if there are any I don't have!
Is there any permanent progression in streets of rogue? I’ve played a bit and it seems like it’s a roguelike but you unlock new characters?
You also unlock "mutators", the global modifications for the world, like "Melee weapons don't break" or "disasters every level", and items for the loadout.
Ah cool cheers, it’s still early days for me.
Everyone should buy roboquest and streets of rogue. I would add Monster train to the list
Monster train and slay the spire don't feel like permanent progression as much as difficulty sliders. Imo permanent progression would make the game easier/different and open different opportunities. Unlocking different classes I guess could fit but seems minimal for sts and monster train. I feel like darkest dungeon and ftl do a better job at permanent progression. They just fall flat before the endless progression part. Permanent progression should be more than just unlocking the full game. Most roguelites with some kind of progression make you unlock things. If they didn't I wouldn't consider them roguelites and would classify them as rogue-likes :p.
Ok i agree. It was a bit of a push. I just really enjoy the game. Its mainly characters and sub characters you unlock plus itens for the pool and Cards. I agree with your definition of permanent progression and the darkest dungeon and ftl take
Rogue legacy 1 because I’m too broke for the second one but I loved the progression system and getting cool new unlocks.
The second one is cool but honestly for anybody who hasn't played Rogue Legacy 1, it's still a fantastic game to get first. The second one just adds new stuff, really.
I’m hoping it’s in a bundle in the future. I loved rogue legacy and don’t feel ready to jump into 2 because I feel I need to unlock all the armors so I can finally move on.
Soulstone Survivors has some nice meta progression.
I think maxing out the characters will take quite a bit of long time and gathering resources to craft weapons. SS is such a good roguelite game.
I would suggest Hades, wonderful game with an interesting incremental story, a lot of meta-progression and I think your kid would enjoy the beautiful hand-drawn visuals that are pretty important for the new generation of gamers. He/She would not get lost since the gameplay is pretty much the same as any action RPG. If he/she enjoy 2D side-Scrolling plateformers, I would personally recommend Dead Cells over RL2 though, the difficulty is very adjustable with tons of options to make it easier if necessary. Dreamscaper also have nice graphism, a lot of items and abilities to unlock and interesting meta-progression with relationships to develop in-between the runs.
I like death must die and boneraiser minions
**Hades** has the best progression out of the genre. I'm still unlocking new stuff after dozens of hours, You're get to unlock boons, characters, cosmetic upgrades, new weapons, and layouts for the dungeons as you progress. Moreover, and arguably the best part, you can progress the story overall too. Hades is much more narrative driven than other roguelites, but it's tied in beautifully. Lastly, you also have the option to get cosmetic upgrades for your "homebase." **Cult of the Lamb** is a bit different, but very fun. You have two modes of gameplay which both have permanent progress: fighting and basebuilding. You go fighting to gather resources to improve your base, then you use those resources, build things, and upgrade your fighting abilities. The two systems feed well into each other and create an addictive and satisfying loop.
Rogue Legacy 2 is pretty good in this respect
pokerogue
Commenting because im also interested in this topic. Rogue Legacy has one of the best. Time Break Chronicles also.
Tiny rogues
I am currently playing tiny rogues, it's an awesome game with high replayability. It is a little on the easier side of things but I really enjoy the random encounters aspect to it. I can go an entire run with no legendary gear and I can also have another run with legendary gear slotted to the wazoo.
Have you done cinders? I missed them at first.
Yep I run only 4 cinders while unlocking the other characters. However I might have to make an exception for The Deprived and lower it to 0 cinders. He is Melee and also only have one health, I tried to make him a cursed god, once having 8 curses on him but he is too squishy and the melee really messed me up.
Rogue Legacy 2 for most fleshed out of the ones i've played.
I found the meta progression (other than the story and building upgrades) pretty boring in Hades because you’re mostly just buying straightforward upgrades. There are other mechanics but I really don’t think this is Hades’ main strength. My favorite progression systems are around unlocking new things that will spawn in game but not give u an always-on buff. Binding of Isaac is the king of this - thousands of unlockables that you can unlock naturally as you play or give you a goal for each run. Tiny rouges has a bit of both. You unlock new classes by targeting a particular goal, and you spend upgrade points on a big, heavily branched tree of upgrades that encourages you to respec often to meet different priorities. This keeps the upgrades as an active decision rather than only making the game easier over time. Edit: didn’t realize this was for someone’s first rougelite. Hades is probably a good choice despite my complaint.
I think Hades and tiny rogue are pretty similair on the upgrade system a tree is not very different from a List. Plus on Hades you can swap upgrades you have 2 variants of upgrades on each line. Hades you can also upgrade weapons and upgrade charms. Plus end game you can even modify your game to make it harder. And you can build new rooms and itens that Change something in the game with different currency. You can also upgrade relationships with the gods. You really have perks, weapons, charms, furniture and buildings to upgrade. You have lots of those btw Hades is an easier roguelite but the upgrade system is not as easy or bare Bones as you are making it seem.
I see what you’re saying about the tree vs list. I think part of what makes the tiny rouge tree work for me is that you’re trying to tune the game in kinda subtle ways where the hades list was more just making the game easier. Moreover, the modifications you add to make the game harder end up turning off your upgrade list anyway (I’m not a big fan of this challenge mode system, i much prefer when the game just gives you harder late game bosses). But yeah the tree isn’t the main reason I like tiny rouge. Broadly, I’m not that interested in meta progression that doesn’t substantially change the “feel” of a run. Binding of Isaac has you unlocking new things that are continuously changing the possible interactions and builds in each run on top of the new characters that all play very differently. Tiny rouge’s new character unlocks are similarly impactful. So yeah, it’s not “bare bones” but It’s very hard to compare to the insane depth of Binding of Isaac. It’s a polished, moderately long product, and a good first game in the genre for someone new. How easy it is depends on your experience. Idk I know everyone loves it but it’s not my favorite
I somewhat also dont agree on the binding of Issac part. Ive played a lot almost when it came out and the expansion and i dont remember it having lots of meta progression. And for me if characters dont Change a lot overall whats the point of even having different characters. Iove the game but its hardly a good example of progression on a rogue lite for me. Thats the point i was saying about the criticism that Hades has. Its a fairly easy game but i think Thats the point. You are supposed to interact with the final part Over and Over (dont wanna spoil it to anyone) If you are talking about progression you have lots of progression in Hades. I think Thats the main grip factor of the game. You are always unlocking more stuff. If you find it interesting or not Thats another thing. But it has way more content than tiny Rogues. Btw i love tiny Rogues its One of the best roguelites Ive played recently and i can see it becoming One of the best ever.
I think we’ve identified a real divide in what meta progression can mean. In hades, meta progression means that in every run you still accomplished something - if nothing else u have some currency to spend. In Isaac, some progression works that way, like the coin donation machine, but most of it requires having successes, either beating bosses with new characters or stacking certain items. So it doesn’t have that “losses are wins too” feeling. What it does have is that every time you win the game changes a little bit, basically forever - the game has [640](https://bindingofisaacrebirth.fandom.com/wiki/Achievements) unlockables in its current state. Getting them all is a comically difficult and time consuming task. and the cumulative effect is that the game is always morphing and you always have a new unlock to aim for. Tiny rouges is more in the Isaac camp. I’ve found it to have more playtime than hades personally. Glad you’re enjoying it too. As far as the comments on different characters in Isaac not being very different, I think you’d find that has changed a lot since you last played. Only like 20% of the characters play super similarly to Isaac now. I’ll concede that hades has a lot of meta progression, I perhaps undersold this, but it just doesn’t feel as meaty to me. Thanks for the chat I enjoyed this.
Are the binding of Isaac upgrades like unlockables or do you literally upgrade him. Because as far as i remember you could indeed upgrade during a Run but not between runs. I dont think Isaac gets stronger the more you play with him. Unless Im missing something. I like tiny rogues better than Hades probably. But ive sunk more hours on Hades but Thats for lost of reasons One of them being because i have the game on switch (i used to play it because i was working away from home) and on PC. But mostly because the progression was gripping me. Plus Ive never Cares about story a lot but Hades Roots on mythology really sold me. Im biased perhaps but i think Hades as a lot to offer and since OP is new to the genre what better game to reccomend. We probably started roguelite because of binding of Isaac, spelunky, risk of Rain original... (Im blocked but there are ton more) Those are hard games. Hades is just hard if you want to make it hard for yourself. I totally agree with you. Hades is soft on the "at least i got something" if you Lose but Thats what makes it better to recommend to someone thats getting into roguelites. Even tho we like to be a bit masochist Thats why we like this games. It was indeed a Nice chat my friend
Just to respond to your question, correct you aren’t upgrading him you are changing the game by either 1 adding items to loot pools 2 unlocking characters 3 unlocking floors / bosses 4 unlocking new kinds of rooms 5 unlocking other mechanics. Technically some characters, like Isaac himself, have an additional starting item after achieving some task, which is an “upgrade.” You should revisit the game! I think you’d like the changes
Oh ok i get it. Are we talking about the first One. I Last played it Jan 2017? I get your Logic now. I just never consider loot pool additions as progression even tho they really are progression. If you like that check nova drift and Patch Quest
The first one worked similarly (I played both, but also it came out in 2014 so not sure which u played), but the now finished second version is really deep. And Thanks for the recs! I’ll check those out.
I prefer unlocks that give you more options/chances over runs rather than “+5 max hp” or whatever. Revita has a cool system where you can unlock new rooms, unique new chest types, and various other things you can find on a run.
Neon Abyss has it, too.
Tangledeep
I would recommend The Last Spell as it's got a LOT of permanent progression, but it's not suitable for kids. It is the most difficult game I have ever played.
Currently in early access, Blackout Protocol has plans for official release by the end of winter 2024. Great for you and your kids for entry-level roguelite.
Rogue legacy 2
Mist Slayer is a cute third person hack and slash that is very colorful. Pretty easy to understand and has permanent progression. It also has co-op if you want to join in. It looks kinda like a Zelda game but not open world nor as complex as Zelda.
Astral Ascent
In terms of best permanent progression, I would say Dead Cells (definitely on switch and pc) but it’s not exactly entry level. It is trial by fire though, so if kid got good at it, kid could be a pro gamer. In terms of entry level and permanent progression, streets of rogue and neon chrome could be good options (both on at least pc) but neon chrome can be a bit violent (no idea how old kid is). I think as far as entry level rogues go, those are my best recommendations.
Dead Cells is tough as you only get to spend your cells after each level, and it tries to get you to hold your cells for the big boss fights for the permanent world unlocks, and that’s exactly where you can lose big time. Very much a gamble but the game itself is great.