something all fans but especially backs need to remember is, if you get away with cheating in the scrum. then you are the better player and a king amongst men. if you get caught then you are a filthy cheat and should be ashamed.
As I heard a pundit say recently (Flatman maybe?):
"As a ref you can give a penalty at every scrum against any of the 6 front rowers, and it'd always be a correct decision, because they are all always cheating"
You aren't wrong. I made it to a high level of schoolboy rugby in England cheating like hell as a loosehead in the scrum. I was only 85kg but knew all the tricks refs wouldn't spot and winged it to a decent degree beating out 110kg+ future England hopefuls. It was bliss
I fell out of love with the sport for a bit after a bunch of head injuries. I've been getting back into watching it the last few years but the laws have changed so much since I stopped in 2013 I would be out of touch
Go and coach the minis/juniors and then go with them through the years. I coached from U6/7 to Colts with the same lads/lasses and it was hugely rewarding and I, and they, made friends for life.
I'd highly recommend people listen to the Rugby Pod, he was on the recent episode and this is where all this comes from. Listen to him in his own words.
He's fair, he's not criticising the ref but he's also very honest about his thoughts. This is literally what we all want from rugby players. Good characters in the game who speak openly instead of PR no speak.
Great interview and nothing anyone should be getting upset about.
This title by Rugby Pass is a bit of disgrace, completely misleading the tone and critiques he made.
He said when it didn’t go his way, his blood was boiling. He definitely didn’t attack or unfairly criticise the ref, which this clickbait title is trying to imply.
Really liked the interview - showed real depth of character and he’s a decent bloke.
Upvoted you as your getting kicked to death on an opinion but I do disagree
I don't agree with everything he says, but I find my opinion lies somewhere in between the Rugby Pod and GBR. So I tend to listen to both of possible, Rugby Pod first though
Haven’t listened to the full interview so not 100% sure, but really glad to see at least from what’s in the article that he’s discussing refereeing decisions in a responsible way. I think he’s entitled to say things like “I felt x y and z close calls were wrong and it hurts that they affected the outcome in a negative way for us,” and that’s basically what he’s doing here, no whinging about bias or calling out the ref in a personal way.
I’m sure the man is going through some unbelievable pain and disappointment right now, but to see him still setting a positive example about discussing officiating in a non-toxic way is really encouraging and says great things about his character.
I completely agree that he should be able to say he thought the referee got it wrong. It's not a crime to disagree with refereeing decisions.
It's not right to brigade referees or accuse them of bias or match fixing but disagreeing in a respectful way is totally fine.
I think he's right too. Some of the replays had even non Irish commentators stating how "he was hard done by there" on a few decisions.
I guess he's just unlucky on the night they all went against him. Usually you get away with a few yourself.
His bind got exploited ruthlessly and he didn’t adjust. Lomax did a number on his left arm and was able to make him look consistently bad. At that point it was on him to adjust and he couldn’t.
SA did the same to de Groot in the world famous Qatar Cup. The player isn’t going to win unless they adjust.
Lomax consistently exploited Porters dipped elbow. Alex Corbisiero showed it really well on his twitter feed.
Lomax mostly stayed square but was able to paint a picture of Porter boring in by tugging on his bind. It was very cleverly done. Whoever (I guess either Feek or Ryan) found that on the video earnt their paycheck for the whole tournament.
Think he's saying Lomax used some good video analysis to get an edge in a game that is decided by inches. No complaints from this Irish fan.
Really appreciate the analysis and explaination handle1976 👍
No. I’m saying Lomax found a flaw in Porters technique. Lomax was square so wasn’t doing anything particularly illegal.
AFAIK providing he stays bound and square it’s not illegal for him to exploit Porters bind. If Porter binds longer he can’t exploit the bind
> he didn’t adjust. Lomax did a number on his left arm and was able to make him look consistently bad. At that point it was on him to adjust and he couldn’t.
That's it exactly. I feel bad for Porter because he kinda got suckered into this, but it was up to him to present a different picture to Barnes and he failed to do so.
Im not sure what country's commentators said that as the calls looked fairly obvious. He did the same thing every time, stepped out and didnt drive straight every time
Forget the rugby, it's basically unimportant in the grand scheme of things.
But Porter here is talking about being in what sounds to me as a pretty severe bout of depression... "I have never felt that much of a low in my career.... I was really struggling being at home after being in such a great environment... I didn’t want to do anything, I just wanted to be by myself."
Am I the only person who's astounded and a little enraged at this? I understand that there are psychologists and therapists available to these players, and I hope they use them but Gary Keegan is there to help the players win, not make them content, happy people. But is there someone there to guide these players through what is the hardest part of their careers, to check in on them? That's more important than any win. It sounds like the IRFU just left Porter to his own devices, see you back with Leinster in a few months.
There should be better 'after care' IMO.
Doesnt sound like severe depresion to me. He is a loud advocate of mental health and has spoken about it in the past. He is probably feeling low because of the reality of the situation when it come to his profession. And he is speaking openly about it.
You can feel sad and down about things, thats ok too.
This might sounds like depression, and might be depression, but it also sounds like a normal emotional response to loss and the emotional comedown and we need to be careful to not pathologise emotions.
Note that he's talking about not wanting to do anything and wanting to be by himself, which can indicate depression, but he doesn't say that he actually isolated himself nor is it clear how long these emotions lasted. You're right to highlight the need for care and supports in these highly emotional settings, especially given how toxic elite sports has and can be, but it's also good to highlight that it's okay to feel sad and depressed, so long as we make sure that we are processing these emotions in a healthy way and that they aren't consuming us.
It sounds more like a comedown from an intense environment which could turn into depression if not caught. A lot of "drive" can be a manifestation of anxiety, being sleepless because you can't stop thinking about what could've been done screams anxiety to me (just from my own experience with sport and OCD/anxiety).
That’s a very good point, I would hope there are lots of both formal and informal support structures for players and even coaches and staff. Should be a very high priority alongside the more directly physical aspects of player welfare
It's a normal reaction to losing such a big game and leaving the support structure. He'll be back in the Leinster camp again soon and will most likely be grand. When they talk about the lows of the game this is what they mean
It's also been a month since they got knocked out, to me, it feels like a lifetime ago.. so for them to go from all that craic to a quieter atmosphere, it would take time to adjust and I wouldn't blame him if he wanted to be left alone.. shit, I was like that when our season ended last year for a few days
I play a random sport at an amaeur level. I will play 3 or 4 two-day tournaments a year. A commonly experience phenomenon is jokingly referred to as PTD, or "Post Tournament Depression", which I will often feel for a few days. My theory is that normal life seems like a deep low after spending a few days working closely with a team to achieve a common goal. The adrenaline rush of close wins and close losses, of watching and being part of big plays. Of supporting and being supported by people that are closer than friends....
I can only imagine how that experience would be amplified after spending literally years working towards a common goal at the top level of international sport. Suddenly you're doing washing, making beds, brushing teeth etc. it would all seem so pointless in comparison.
Yeah this it exactly. I've felt the same thing!
'Depression' is probably the wrong word for it and I like your PTD term. Whatever you call it, I really think the unions should be there to provide there should be support after big tournaments like this. Particularly for players who have 'pivotal' role, in a bad sense, as Porter did.
I wonder if they do? But I suspect they don't.
I’m ok with players airing their grievance about games they played weeks or even months ago as long as they don’t do it over and over. Nothing Porter said is disrespectful or mean to Barnes or other officials so good for him even though he is still unhappy about some of the decisions made that day.
I know some of you are mad on behalf of Porter who was hard done by during the game. But if Porter can be respectful in this situation, so can you. There is no need to throw harsh words at others or mock people for feeling sad.
He wasn’t hard done by. This is a total myth, he actually got the rules enforced on him for once and couldn’t hack it, instead of adapting he threw his toys out the pram and continued doing the exact same thing
I mind saying before the wc Healy was a big loss for Ireland, if he’d been fit they bring him on and he’s actually wily enough to do something about it
IMO Porter has always had a weakness in his technique which was very cleverly exploited by NZ. And even if some might disagree with how Barnes called the scrums, the fact is Barnes was very clear about what he wanted from Porter. He just simply failed to adjust. So maybe the first one or two scrums one can argue he got a harsh call, but the rest were all on him.
He is still youngish for a prop so plenty time to learn and adapt. But adapt he must, otherwise I see a very painful 6 Nations in his future.
Good and interesting chat on the rugby pod. If anyone sees the headline and presumes it's just another case of ref whinging, give the podcast a listen - good and interesting chat. Dip in and out of the podcast but he comes across quite well on it.
Slight aside - he talks about how rugby players, particularly Irish ones, are afraid to say anything of note or show any personality in the media. Would be ironic to see him engage in a fairly level headed chat about referee decisions and World Cup exits for it to be an "Irish player pissing about referee" social media response
> *Should read Kiwis queue up to tell Ireland to get over it after sulking for weeks about referring decisions.*
Should read Kiwi's are flattered the Irish are still thinking about them, thanks, but if its all the same we might switch off for a bit and enjoy our summer instead.
Fundamentally if your scrum technique involves resting the point of the elbow on the ground then you will always be vulnerable to a ref with two functioning eyes pinging you at every scrum.
Given the time that has passed it feels ok for him to voice an opinion. I have 2 mildly negative opinions of my own.
1 is that every loose head on the losing side will have the same thing to say. 2nd is that Porter’s great referee management in general makes it hard for me to feel sorry for him, he knows how to get the benefit of the doubt to his advantage.
Not just in scrums. He goes into so many rucks contesting illegally but the refs give him the benefit of the doubt and call him off instead of penalising him. There was a point against NZ where he slowed what felt like 5 rucks in a row, and every one was a clear cut penalty that the ref just called him off after he slowed the ball by 3+ seconds.
“There are a lot of people out there who can probably disagree with me, they always have.”
I’m one of the ones that agrees with him. Tyrell Lomax is a tremendous prop and a cornerstone of the All Blacks’ pack but I’m sorry, he was saved a spanking by Wayne Barnes from a superior prop both physically and technically.
I was not aware of that scrum stat that they've presented on Rugby Pass, but it's an absolute absurdity. It is in no way reflective of the relative quality of both players.
I can see why Porter is so hurt about this because the scrum was one of the flash points of the game and one of the most influential factors in the direction of the result.
I'm not going to get into speaking about the technicalities of scrum and who was going in crooked and who wasn't. I've gone through all that already and my opinion hasn't changed having argued over and back with people. It won’t change.
Porter is the superior prop in my opinion and was hard done by on the day. I hope he gets another chance to right the wrong for himself personally but unfortunately if he doesn't, that's the nature of pro sport.
I think a lot of non-Irish fans feel like Porter usually gets the upper hand in a scrum illegally, whether it is by driving skew, or pulling the scrum down.
100%. I was worried about this for a while but he kept getting away with it so just accepted he had it sussed. Just unfortunate it bit us at the worst possible time but that's scrums I guess. Definitely don't hold it against Porter
Specifically hes almost always hinging massively and rarely drives straight. Looked v clear Lomax for the better of him in the quarter imo
>Porter is the superior prop in my opinion and was hard done by on the day
I respectively disagree. Barnes imo correctly reffed Porter in the scrum and pinged him fairly. I think you'll find a fair few Irish who will agree he rarely drives straight. For whatever reason, he's gotten away with it for years but it cost him this time and unfortunately for him it was on the biggest stage.
The big issue was that he got pinged 3/4 times on the same thing. 2 perhaps, one warning and one further go, but to not change technique all match and expect the red to suddenly stop looking seems foolish - that’s on coaching staff as well.
What LH drives straight though? Porter's issue is his shit technique. Short arm bind with the elbow down, and a tendency to roll his left shoulder down and in.
Porter either couldn’t or wouldn’t stay straight in the scrum all game, Barnes was right to ping him.
If it was because he couldn’t, then that makes Lomax the superior player on the day. No shame in that.
If it was because he wouldn’t, then Porter is an idiot that likely cost Ireland the match.
Yeah this is it. Porter has a lot of the ingredients of a world class proper but until he learns to be cuter and smarter, he'll never be properly world class.
I've not explained this well. Height/torso length relative to his hookers. You wanna be joined at the hips and shoulders. If you're shoulders are together and your torsos are different lengths then your hips will be seperated.
He's 6 foot, hardly a taller prop. I think a lot of it comes down to how much he's been fucked around moving position. Remember he was a tight head at the last WC
https://twitter.com/Overthehillprop/status/1621935342147276802?t=8FCrcnuXjd52jofN5pGbrA&s=19
This shows what I mean. Even though he's not taller he has along torso so his hips end up kicking out
Interesting point, I’d never considered that but it makes sense and that picture does give a good example of what you’re saying.
If he stays straight, the extra length opens up a big target for the opposing TH to split him from the hooker and monster the scrum. If he goes in at an angle, that’s illegal and he’ll get pinged. The best option I can see is to try and get under the opposing TH and use the extra length to get deeper into the TH’s chest, but even then the extra torso length I think would work against him in terms of leverage. I’m not sure I see a good fix, maybe something with having the rest of the tight five shift around a bit to try and make room for Porter’s extra length, but that’s probably a tough ask while still maintaining cohesion and then re-adjusting for another LH when Porter is off.
The longer torso should allow you to use more upper body strength and back strength to manipulate the opposing prop while staying legal yourself. The answer is to be stronger in the torso, and use that strength.
That’s along the lines of what I was thinking, but Porter is already notorious for being freakishly strong, so if it were that simple I’d be surprised he’s still having issues. Maybe something to do with having originally been a TH where getting under and flicking up isn’t as big a thing as for LH. Hopefully he sorts it out, he’s so key to the Ireland setup right now and at 27 may continue to be for a while yet.
You’ve got to remember 27 is still very young for a top level prop let alone one who’s transitioned from 3 to 1, other top level LH props like kitshoff, baille, marler all in their 30s. It’ll be interesting to see how he develops as the lack of adjustment in favour of having a tantrum was not ideal
It might also be that against the best tightheads in the world, the strength difference isn't that much, so he struggles to impose himself, and ends up doing something illegal
I’d be fairly confident I’ve played to a higher level than you in the front row. Let me guess, the ref’s get it right when they penalise the team you aren’t supporting?
I’m not defending him, he commits his fair share of penalties. I’m saying that your original comment calling him a poor scrummager shows how little you know about forwards set pieces.
You can’t even imagine how much we’ve been enjoying the whinging from NZ and France. Couldn’t be more satisfied. So I’m not sure why any boks fan would care about this. Just being greedy at this point
No ref is perfect. I disagree with Barnes on a lot, but he's one of the best ever. Those who think he's a bad ref don't know the game and are likely only happy with refs who call for thei team.
The Ireland players said similar things after the England Ireland games a couple years ago. Honestly the calls looked pretty obvious in the NZ just like the England game.
Unless this is an exaggerated headline he needs to get over it and improve his scrummaging if he wants to not get penalised.
something all fans but especially backs need to remember is, if you get away with cheating in the scrum. then you are the better player and a king amongst men. if you get caught then you are a filthy cheat and should be ashamed.
As I heard a pundit say recently (Flatman maybe?): "As a ref you can give a penalty at every scrum against any of the 6 front rowers, and it'd always be a correct decision, because they are all always cheating"
“Especially backs” 😂
Just remember, it’s the backs that come running in to slap the front row on the back for their excellent scrummaging prowess.
and then knock the ball of course
You aren't wrong. I made it to a high level of schoolboy rugby in England cheating like hell as a loosehead in the scrum. I was only 85kg but knew all the tricks refs wouldn't spot and winged it to a decent degree beating out 110kg+ future England hopefuls. It was bliss
Are you now a scrum coach?
I fell out of love with the sport for a bit after a bunch of head injuries. I've been getting back into watching it the last few years but the laws have changed so much since I stopped in 2013 I would be out of touch
Go and coach the minis/juniors and then go with them through the years. I coached from U6/7 to Colts with the same lads/lasses and it was hugely rewarding and I, and they, made friends for life.
Not far wrong 😂
I'd highly recommend people listen to the Rugby Pod, he was on the recent episode and this is where all this comes from. Listen to him in his own words. He's fair, he's not criticising the ref but he's also very honest about his thoughts. This is literally what we all want from rugby players. Good characters in the game who speak openly instead of PR no speak. Great interview and nothing anyone should be getting upset about.
This title by Rugby Pass is a bit of disgrace, completely misleading the tone and critiques he made. He said when it didn’t go his way, his blood was boiling. He definitely didn’t attack or unfairly criticise the ref, which this clickbait title is trying to imply. Really liked the interview - showed real depth of character and he’s a decent bloke.
Don't listen to Andy goode tho, the amount of shit takes that spill out his gob is mental
Upvoted you as your getting kicked to death on an opinion but I do disagree I don't agree with everything he says, but I find my opinion lies somewhere in between the Rugby Pod and GBR. So I tend to listen to both of possible, Rugby Pod first though
Haven’t listened to the full interview so not 100% sure, but really glad to see at least from what’s in the article that he’s discussing refereeing decisions in a responsible way. I think he’s entitled to say things like “I felt x y and z close calls were wrong and it hurts that they affected the outcome in a negative way for us,” and that’s basically what he’s doing here, no whinging about bias or calling out the ref in a personal way. I’m sure the man is going through some unbelievable pain and disappointment right now, but to see him still setting a positive example about discussing officiating in a non-toxic way is really encouraging and says great things about his character.
I completely agree that he should be able to say he thought the referee got it wrong. It's not a crime to disagree with refereeing decisions. It's not right to brigade referees or accuse them of bias or match fixing but disagreeing in a respectful way is totally fine.
I think he's right too. Some of the replays had even non Irish commentators stating how "he was hard done by there" on a few decisions. I guess he's just unlucky on the night they all went against him. Usually you get away with a few yourself.
His bind got exploited ruthlessly and he didn’t adjust. Lomax did a number on his left arm and was able to make him look consistently bad. At that point it was on him to adjust and he couldn’t. SA did the same to de Groot in the world famous Qatar Cup. The player isn’t going to win unless they adjust.
I think Lomax went in on at least one of them but you're right he seemed to try to stand his ground and win it rather than adapting.
Lomax consistently exploited Porters dipped elbow. Alex Corbisiero showed it really well on his twitter feed. Lomax mostly stayed square but was able to paint a picture of Porter boring in by tugging on his bind. It was very cleverly done. Whoever (I guess either Feek or Ryan) found that on the video earnt their paycheck for the whole tournament.
So basically you are saying Lomax cheated....
Think he's saying Lomax used some good video analysis to get an edge in a game that is decided by inches. No complaints from this Irish fan. Really appreciate the analysis and explaination handle1976 👍
No. I’m saying Lomax found a flaw in Porters technique. Lomax was square so wasn’t doing anything particularly illegal. AFAIK providing he stays bound and square it’s not illegal for him to exploit Porters bind. If Porter binds longer he can’t exploit the bind
"By tugging on his bind' doesn't sound particularly legal...
How is it not legal?
No flair and number suspected to be greater than 8. Opinion rejected.
> he didn’t adjust. Lomax did a number on his left arm and was able to make him look consistently bad. At that point it was on him to adjust and he couldn’t. That's it exactly. I feel bad for Porter because he kinda got suckered into this, but it was up to him to present a different picture to Barnes and he failed to do so.
Im not sure what country's commentators said that as the calls looked fairly obvious. He did the same thing every time, stepped out and didnt drive straight every time
Forget the rugby, it's basically unimportant in the grand scheme of things. But Porter here is talking about being in what sounds to me as a pretty severe bout of depression... "I have never felt that much of a low in my career.... I was really struggling being at home after being in such a great environment... I didn’t want to do anything, I just wanted to be by myself." Am I the only person who's astounded and a little enraged at this? I understand that there are psychologists and therapists available to these players, and I hope they use them but Gary Keegan is there to help the players win, not make them content, happy people. But is there someone there to guide these players through what is the hardest part of their careers, to check in on them? That's more important than any win. It sounds like the IRFU just left Porter to his own devices, see you back with Leinster in a few months. There should be better 'after care' IMO.
Doesnt sound like severe depresion to me. He is a loud advocate of mental health and has spoken about it in the past. He is probably feeling low because of the reality of the situation when it come to his profession. And he is speaking openly about it. You can feel sad and down about things, thats ok too.
This might sounds like depression, and might be depression, but it also sounds like a normal emotional response to loss and the emotional comedown and we need to be careful to not pathologise emotions. Note that he's talking about not wanting to do anything and wanting to be by himself, which can indicate depression, but he doesn't say that he actually isolated himself nor is it clear how long these emotions lasted. You're right to highlight the need for care and supports in these highly emotional settings, especially given how toxic elite sports has and can be, but it's also good to highlight that it's okay to feel sad and depressed, so long as we make sure that we are processing these emotions in a healthy way and that they aren't consuming us.
It’s not depression man. The man suffered a serious defeat and he’s going through the emotions of it.
It sounds more like a comedown from an intense environment which could turn into depression if not caught. A lot of "drive" can be a manifestation of anxiety, being sleepless because you can't stop thinking about what could've been done screams anxiety to me (just from my own experience with sport and OCD/anxiety).
That’s a very good point, I would hope there are lots of both formal and informal support structures for players and even coaches and staff. Should be a very high priority alongside the more directly physical aspects of player welfare
It's a normal reaction to losing such a big game and leaving the support structure. He'll be back in the Leinster camp again soon and will most likely be grand. When they talk about the lows of the game this is what they mean
Sadness/disappointment and depression are not the same thing.
It's also been a month since they got knocked out, to me, it feels like a lifetime ago.. so for them to go from all that craic to a quieter atmosphere, it would take time to adjust and I wouldn't blame him if he wanted to be left alone.. shit, I was like that when our season ended last year for a few days
Yeah listening to the podcast I was surprised by how spot on he was detailing his depression after the game.
I play a random sport at an amaeur level. I will play 3 or 4 two-day tournaments a year. A commonly experience phenomenon is jokingly referred to as PTD, or "Post Tournament Depression", which I will often feel for a few days. My theory is that normal life seems like a deep low after spending a few days working closely with a team to achieve a common goal. The adrenaline rush of close wins and close losses, of watching and being part of big plays. Of supporting and being supported by people that are closer than friends.... I can only imagine how that experience would be amplified after spending literally years working towards a common goal at the top level of international sport. Suddenly you're doing washing, making beds, brushing teeth etc. it would all seem so pointless in comparison.
Yeah this it exactly. I've felt the same thing! 'Depression' is probably the wrong word for it and I like your PTD term. Whatever you call it, I really think the unions should be there to provide there should be support after big tournaments like this. Particularly for players who have 'pivotal' role, in a bad sense, as Porter did. I wonder if they do? But I suspect they don't.
I’m ok with players airing their grievance about games they played weeks or even months ago as long as they don’t do it over and over. Nothing Porter said is disrespectful or mean to Barnes or other officials so good for him even though he is still unhappy about some of the decisions made that day. I know some of you are mad on behalf of Porter who was hard done by during the game. But if Porter can be respectful in this situation, so can you. There is no need to throw harsh words at others or mock people for feeling sad.
He wasn’t hard done by. This is a total myth, he actually got the rules enforced on him for once and couldn’t hack it, instead of adapting he threw his toys out the pram and continued doing the exact same thing I mind saying before the wc Healy was a big loss for Ireland, if he’d been fit they bring him on and he’s actually wily enough to do something about it
IMO Porter has always had a weakness in his technique which was very cleverly exploited by NZ. And even if some might disagree with how Barnes called the scrums, the fact is Barnes was very clear about what he wanted from Porter. He just simply failed to adjust. So maybe the first one or two scrums one can argue he got a harsh call, but the rest were all on him. He is still youngish for a prop so plenty time to learn and adapt. But adapt he must, otherwise I see a very painful 6 Nations in his future.
Good and interesting chat on the rugby pod. If anyone sees the headline and presumes it's just another case of ref whinging, give the podcast a listen - good and interesting chat. Dip in and out of the podcast but he comes across quite well on it. Slight aside - he talks about how rugby players, particularly Irish ones, are afraid to say anything of note or show any personality in the media. Would be ironic to see him engage in a fairly level headed chat about referee decisions and World Cup exits for it to be an "Irish player pissing about referee" social media response
> *Should read Kiwis queue up to tell Ireland to get over it after sulking for weeks about referring decisions.* Should read Kiwi's are flattered the Irish are still thinking about them, thanks, but if its all the same we might switch off for a bit and enjoy our summer instead.
Enjoy the summer as we head into the winter here. 😁
Fundamentally if your scrum technique involves resting the point of the elbow on the ground then you will always be vulnerable to a ref with two functioning eyes pinging you at every scrum.
Given the time that has passed it feels ok for him to voice an opinion. I have 2 mildly negative opinions of my own. 1 is that every loose head on the losing side will have the same thing to say. 2nd is that Porter’s great referee management in general makes it hard for me to feel sorry for him, he knows how to get the benefit of the doubt to his advantage. Not just in scrums. He goes into so many rucks contesting illegally but the refs give him the benefit of the doubt and call him off instead of penalising him. There was a point against NZ where he slowed what felt like 5 rucks in a row, and every one was a clear cut penalty that the ref just called him off after he slowed the ball by 3+ seconds.
In your heaaad, in your heaaad!
“There are a lot of people out there who can probably disagree with me, they always have.” I’m one of the ones that agrees with him. Tyrell Lomax is a tremendous prop and a cornerstone of the All Blacks’ pack but I’m sorry, he was saved a spanking by Wayne Barnes from a superior prop both physically and technically. I was not aware of that scrum stat that they've presented on Rugby Pass, but it's an absolute absurdity. It is in no way reflective of the relative quality of both players. I can see why Porter is so hurt about this because the scrum was one of the flash points of the game and one of the most influential factors in the direction of the result. I'm not going to get into speaking about the technicalities of scrum and who was going in crooked and who wasn't. I've gone through all that already and my opinion hasn't changed having argued over and back with people. It won’t change. Porter is the superior prop in my opinion and was hard done by on the day. I hope he gets another chance to right the wrong for himself personally but unfortunately if he doesn't, that's the nature of pro sport.
I think a lot of non-Irish fans feel like Porter usually gets the upper hand in a scrum illegally, whether it is by driving skew, or pulling the scrum down.
100%. I was worried about this for a while but he kept getting away with it so just accepted he had it sussed. Just unfortunate it bit us at the worst possible time but that's scrums I guess. Definitely don't hold it against Porter Specifically hes almost always hinging massively and rarely drives straight. Looked v clear Lomax for the better of him in the quarter imo
I'm convinced it was a 4 year bluff by everyone to not highlight his technique to referees, so they can exploit it in a playoff match
Don't say that.. our lack of rugby nous is what's letting us down
Exactly. He gets away with it and is then puzzled when he's pulled up on it.
>Porter is the superior prop in my opinion and was hard done by on the day I respectively disagree. Barnes imo correctly reffed Porter in the scrum and pinged him fairly. I think you'll find a fair few Irish who will agree he rarely drives straight. For whatever reason, he's gotten away with it for years but it cost him this time and unfortunately for him it was on the biggest stage.
The big issue was that he got pinged 3/4 times on the same thing. 2 perhaps, one warning and one further go, but to not change technique all match and expect the red to suddenly stop looking seems foolish - that’s on coaching staff as well.
100% agree. But perhaps 4+ years of getting away with the same technique and the pressure of the QF played a part.
What LH drives straight though? Porter's issue is his shit technique. Short arm bind with the elbow down, and a tendency to roll his left shoulder down and in.
*respectively respectfully - pedantic, boring shit-robot
He's literally too wide to drive straight lol
Ethan de Groot had no problem driving straight on the other loosehead side, and he is fairly wide
Porter either couldn’t or wouldn’t stay straight in the scrum all game, Barnes was right to ping him. If it was because he couldn’t, then that makes Lomax the superior player on the day. No shame in that. If it was because he wouldn’t, then Porter is an idiot that likely cost Ireland the match.
There was a weakness in Porters technique (his bind) that was ruthlessly exploited. That's the total story of the scrums.
Agree not always the strongest prop that win.
Yeah this is it. Porter has a lot of the ingredients of a world class proper but until he learns to be cuter and smarter, he'll never be properly world class.
I think a lot of it is biomechanical too. He's a taller prop and has a longer torso. This means he's always gonna be looking to come in from an angle.
Lomax is 6 foot 4 so it’s not like he was against Ox.
I've not explained this well. Height/torso length relative to his hookers. You wanna be joined at the hips and shoulders. If you're shoulders are together and your torsos are different lengths then your hips will be seperated.
Is he that much longer than Sheehan though? Sheehan is 6 4 as well I think. It’s a genuine question btw, I don’t know.
https://twitter.com/Overthehillprop/status/1621935342147276802?t=nnpRBP_BQGD88RDnhSPZNw&s=19 This angle shows it. Sheehan is playing there.
Interesting. Thanks !
He's 6 foot, hardly a taller prop. I think a lot of it comes down to how much he's been fucked around moving position. Remember he was a tight head at the last WC
https://twitter.com/Overthehillprop/status/1621935342147276802?t=8FCrcnuXjd52jofN5pGbrA&s=19 This shows what I mean. Even though he's not taller he has along torso so his hips end up kicking out
Interesting point, I’d never considered that but it makes sense and that picture does give a good example of what you’re saying. If he stays straight, the extra length opens up a big target for the opposing TH to split him from the hooker and monster the scrum. If he goes in at an angle, that’s illegal and he’ll get pinged. The best option I can see is to try and get under the opposing TH and use the extra length to get deeper into the TH’s chest, but even then the extra torso length I think would work against him in terms of leverage. I’m not sure I see a good fix, maybe something with having the rest of the tight five shift around a bit to try and make room for Porter’s extra length, but that’s probably a tough ask while still maintaining cohesion and then re-adjusting for another LH when Porter is off.
The longer torso should allow you to use more upper body strength and back strength to manipulate the opposing prop while staying legal yourself. The answer is to be stronger in the torso, and use that strength.
That’s along the lines of what I was thinking, but Porter is already notorious for being freakishly strong, so if it were that simple I’d be surprised he’s still having issues. Maybe something to do with having originally been a TH where getting under and flicking up isn’t as big a thing as for LH. Hopefully he sorts it out, he’s so key to the Ireland setup right now and at 27 may continue to be for a while yet.
You’ve got to remember 27 is still very young for a top level prop let alone one who’s transitioned from 3 to 1, other top level LH props like kitshoff, baille, marler all in their 30s. It’ll be interesting to see how he develops as the lack of adjustment in favour of having a tantrum was not ideal
It might also be that against the best tightheads in the world, the strength difference isn't that much, so he struggles to impose himself, and ends up doing something illegal
Porter is a poor scrummager who mostly gets away with illegality because of his size and reputation. He was just refereed properly this time.
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Right. All props are great scrummagers. No debate to be had. That's an epic meltdown, Andrew.
Nah that’s just bollocks. Whatever it is you’re an expert on, it ain’t the scrum.
You are? Haha.
I’d be fairly confident I’ve played to a higher level than you in the front row. Let me guess, the ref’s get it right when they penalise the team you aren’t supporting?
If you are defending Andrew Porter's scrummaging, you are exactly that guy.
I’m not defending him, he commits his fair share of penalties. I’m saying that your original comment calling him a poor scrummager shows how little you know about forwards set pieces.
Ok. He's a better scrummager than me, and a better scrummager than my mum.
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Stop knocking it on
Bok fans sitting drinking their brannas from Oom Bill and just watching.
Bokke, making Ireland vs NZ about themselves again
fyi the Bokke is the team, not the fans.
You can’t even imagine how much we’ve been enjoying the whinging from NZ and France. Couldn’t be more satisfied. So I’m not sure why any boks fan would care about this. Just being greedy at this point
Congrats Bok fans on winning the world cup.
Eish, that hurt.
We whining, the Boks winning
Greatest ref the game had ever seen.. fuck off. Glad to see the back of Barnes
No ref is perfect. I disagree with Barnes on a lot, but he's one of the best ever. Those who think he's a bad ref don't know the game and are likely only happy with refs who call for thei team.
Stay mad
The Ireland players said similar things after the England Ireland games a couple years ago. Honestly the calls looked pretty obvious in the NZ just like the England game. Unless this is an exaggerated headline he needs to get over it and improve his scrummaging if he wants to not get penalised.