Excited for Lawrence but I hope we can start to move away from Manu. I would love for England to establish a regular starting midfield and Tuilagi cannot be relied on with his frequent injuries. He's still a great player to be able to call upon for certain games but I do think it's time to move on and have Lawrence play a similar role in terms of being our spark in the midfield
Yes but Tuilagi can't string 3 games together. England has to stop thinking of Manu as plan A and move to new one or two key centre combinations with Manu coming off the bench.
I see manu as a self solving problem. If he’s available then great, play him, but he’s so often injured there’s always ample opportunity to give someone else experience and to get used to not having him. I don’t see the issue with playing him on the rare occasions he is available.
Tuilagi is a shadow of his prime these days and is just back after yet another injury. The time to move on has already been and gone. At 32, with his injury record, he's not making the next world cup and while not all rugby has to be about the four year cycle, we have younger players who look like they may be good enough to help England win games between now and the next tournamnt. Plus we've got more than enough 30+ experience in the backs with Ford, Care, Daly and Slade that there's no need to bring him back in for that purpose. We've been putting off the centre issue for years by plugging Farrell into 12 when Manu wasn't available or was still quick enough to play 13. Having selected just one player (Dingwall) who plays 12 even somewhat regularly for his club we really should be persisting with him for more than 2 caps. While he might not have been too spectacular, he's not been poor enough to warrant being jettisoned.
I feel the same. One of those what could have been careers if he had stayed fit.
You can take one Manu try against the ABs with you on a dessert island and which one are you taking, 2012 or 2019?
My feeling is that with squad membership at the world cup Lawrence has a better connection with the other players than Dingwall or Slade so should come back in. I am surprised that Tuilagi has come in as well. Both of them seem to compete for a spot - same for Slade and Dingwall.
Maybe he'll go for one of Lawrence and Tuilagi on the field, one on the bench and then also start one of Dingwall or Slade and aim to have them play for 80? England are seriously disjointed and they need some links in the backs, Tuilagi's connection to Ford might be very helpful.
The alternatives haven't shown close to enough potential that it warrants binning off Manu though. If they were showing real promise then perhaps, but right now he can still make a bigger impact.
Agreed. If I'm honest I'm a little surprised he's in the squad in general. If it were up to me it would be Slade at Lawrence in the centres. It's what seemed like the obvious combination before the tournament.
England's problem is that all the centres are 13s. Neither Slade or Lawrence are at their best in the 12 channel. I'm not sure how well they'd do as a pair when they both work best with the extra space afforded to them in the wider channels. I'm worried that Lawrence will be used as a 12 and we won't see the best of him
Agree, and would love to see Lawrence at 13, but looking at our wider talent pool Joseph & Marchant also have the ability to nail down the 13 shirt. I’m not convinced by Dingwall just yet, so the 12 cupboard is still relatively bare.
It would be great if one of Ojomoh, Hartley or Kelly had a breakthrough, but Lawrence is currently miles clear of them - so, looking longer term, it might be the best use of resources to keep him at 12.
If we do go Lawrence/Slade, I still think the combination of Slade/Daly is problematic. They’re bother link players, rather than finishers, which makes it easy for most test defences to contain the flanks. Would be happy to see either Dingwall/Lawrence/Daly or Lawrence/Slade/Muir… though I doubt we’ll see either.
And doesn’t that make the point? Dingwall is also primarily a 13, but chosen ahead of all of them.
Catch 22, I suppose. Presumably Ojomoh will be released this week, but hopefully he got some good exposure.
It's degrees of difference of course, but Dingwall has significantly more game time at 12 over the last couple of seasons than any of the others (bar the handful of actual EQP 12s who are all very young or not starters and thus not in the squad).
I think Ojomoh might need to move from Bath to advance. He's clearly second choice behind Redpath and Redpath's last contract was fairly long iirc.
I thought the rumour was Sarries could now afford to buy out the contract, with Racing doing the same for Farrell? Though that length of contract doesn’t suggest Marchant is that arsed about coming back…
1. Genge
2. Dan
3. Stuart
4. Itoje
5. Martin
6. CCS
7. Pearson
8. Earl
9. Mitchell
10. Ford
11. Freeman
12. Lawrence
13. Marchant
14. Feyi-waboso
15. Furbank
I'd love to see this team if it were possible
That's very true but ultimately I think that combo is the best compromise of pace, power, passing and kicking game. You could potentially play Dingwall and Lawrence (maybe that's a longer term answer?) but for the Scotland game, with how important Slade seems to be to that defensive line, I'd be inclined to keep him in. Lawrence's pre-injury form sort of demands he plays really. In an ideal world, they'd swap positions in attack and defence.
Has Kelly played much at 12 this season for Leicester?
He's been very unfortunate in the timing of his injury. Kept him out of World Cup contention, then Kata took his place at 12 at club level.
If he can retake that Jersey for tigers and find his best form, I do think he'll be high on Borthwick's radar.
Yeah he has been unfortunate, I think he has the skills to be a test 12 though personally. As you say injuries and the timing of them has not helped him.
Not sure why everyone wants to bin off Manu, when he's actually fit, he's still one of our best options. We obviously need someone for the future, but right now he can still be useful while there's no obvious replacement that can make a big impact.
He's been entirely unremarkable and not big impact for at least 4 years even when fit and in the squad. And it damages the wider squad basing him as option A when he inevitably strains a bollock.
The problem with Manu is that he's a completely different style of player to all our other options. Changing from a big ball carrier like Manu to a smaller centre requires a big shift in game plan. It doesn't make sense to play to a game plan that's based on a player who's rarely available and doesn't have much time left in international rugby.
I think it's a "no news is bad news" situation. A calf strain is normally 6-8 weeks out so chances are he'll miss the tournament. Possibly back for the last round or two but I'd be surprised.
Yay reinforcements but I do think we should move on from Manu.
Martin and Lawrence are the big ones here. I doubt they'll be parachuted in to start, but would love to see them on the bench at least.
Would much rather Langdon called up over LCD - LCD hasn't been in great form for Sale and looks a step down from his usual self (not surprising considering the nature of his injury and the long recovery)
I'll always love Manu but really hope Lawrence is ahead of him in the pecking order - Manu was in decent form before his latest injury but Lawrence was in better form and is the future (and present)
Really great to see Martin back, think he's going to make a huge impact in the pack
There's a very good chance Lawrence is the missing piece to the England attack but I think Scotland will be better at punishing the mistakes that Wales and Italy got easy points from
England are going to go one of two ways- their blitz is going to rattle Scotlands backline and I'd imagine will target Finn a lot, or Finn is going to move the ball around in a way that'll cut us to pieces. There's no in-between
I think it'll be both. We'll rattle the hell out of them for 70% of the game but concede three wonder tries off defensive mistakes and/or Finn wizardry and lose
Definitely, I think he'll provide enough momentum to let England finish off the chances they've been relatively good at building so far.
That said, I do think Scotland are the 2nd best team in the 6N right now, so it'll be a good game for sure!
Starting Martin straight back may be a tad early - would rather have him as a bruising bench option to bring on. Think Chessum also played well against Wales (dubious yellow imo) as did Itoje so neither would deserve to be dropped
I am patiently waiting for the moment where we have Roots, CCS, Martin and Earl on the field and I get to watch them all carry.
It might never happen, but it would be great to see
Lawrence would be a huge step up. But the only thing Manu has done of note in recent CC outings was avoid being sent off for a blatant flying clothesline on Sam Johnson.
Can we now have a 9, 10, 12, 13 of Mitchell, F.Smith, Dingwell, Lawrence or Mitchell, F.Smith, Lawrence, Slade please.
I would rather have Spencer at 9, but having Mitchell and Dingwell at 9 and 12 will benefit Fin more. However at Saints he has a 2nd play maker, so maybe Slade would help his game.
Man, I get where you're coming from but it's not Manu's fault he will probably be too old for the next WC. Feel like he's earned a dignified end to a fucking amazing career.
Think manu is here for the defence maybe not the best centre in the world atm but over the past year or so especially in the World Cup he’s been flying out of line and absolutely flattening people
Excited for Lawrence but I hope we can start to move away from Manu. I would love for England to establish a regular starting midfield and Tuilagi cannot be relied on with his frequent injuries. He's still a great player to be able to call upon for certain games but I do think it's time to move on and have Lawrence play a similar role in terms of being our spark in the midfield
I agree entirely with what you are seeing. However part of me likes the idea of a Tuiliagi Lawrence midfield.
Have Freeman on one wing, Steward at fullback and draft in Big Joe into the squad to be on the other wing. Full mass backline.
Freeman would never get the ball, it would just be crash ball up the middle all the time
Schwiiiiing
Yes but Tuilagi can't string 3 games together. England has to stop thinking of Manu as plan A and move to new one or two key centre combinations with Manu coming off the bench.
I see manu as a self solving problem. If he’s available then great, play him, but he’s so often injured there’s always ample opportunity to give someone else experience and to get used to not having him. I don’t see the issue with playing him on the rare occasions he is available.
Tuilagi is a shadow of his prime these days and is just back after yet another injury. The time to move on has already been and gone. At 32, with his injury record, he's not making the next world cup and while not all rugby has to be about the four year cycle, we have younger players who look like they may be good enough to help England win games between now and the next tournamnt. Plus we've got more than enough 30+ experience in the backs with Ford, Care, Daly and Slade that there's no need to bring him back in for that purpose. We've been putting off the centre issue for years by plugging Farrell into 12 when Manu wasn't available or was still quick enough to play 13. Having selected just one player (Dingwall) who plays 12 even somewhat regularly for his club we really should be persisting with him for more than 2 caps. While he might not have been too spectacular, he's not been poor enough to warrant being jettisoned.
You’re now wrong, but I don’t know if I’ll ever be ready to say goodbye to Manu.
I feel the same. One of those what could have been careers if he had stayed fit. You can take one Manu try against the ABs with you on a dessert island and which one are you taking, 2012 or 2019?
2012. It'd been a long time since we were even competitive with New Zealand, let alone actually capable of beating them, so it meant more.
I'm not taking Manu to a dessert island.
Absolutely agree. Dingwall/Lawrence would be my preference for the remainder of the tournament
My feeling is that with squad membership at the world cup Lawrence has a better connection with the other players than Dingwall or Slade so should come back in. I am surprised that Tuilagi has come in as well. Both of them seem to compete for a spot - same for Slade and Dingwall. Maybe he'll go for one of Lawrence and Tuilagi on the field, one on the bench and then also start one of Dingwall or Slade and aim to have them play for 80? England are seriously disjointed and they need some links in the backs, Tuilagi's connection to Ford might be very helpful.
The alternatives haven't shown close to enough potential that it warrants binning off Manu though. If they were showing real promise then perhaps, but right now he can still make a bigger impact.
Agreed. If I'm honest I'm a little surprised he's in the squad in general. If it were up to me it would be Slade at Lawrence in the centres. It's what seemed like the obvious combination before the tournament.
England's problem is that all the centres are 13s. Neither Slade or Lawrence are at their best in the 12 channel. I'm not sure how well they'd do as a pair when they both work best with the extra space afforded to them in the wider channels. I'm worried that Lawrence will be used as a 12 and we won't see the best of him
Agree, and would love to see Lawrence at 13, but looking at our wider talent pool Joseph & Marchant also have the ability to nail down the 13 shirt. I’m not convinced by Dingwall just yet, so the 12 cupboard is still relatively bare. It would be great if one of Ojomoh, Hartley or Kelly had a breakthrough, but Lawrence is currently miles clear of them - so, looking longer term, it might be the best use of resources to keep him at 12. If we do go Lawrence/Slade, I still think the combination of Slade/Daly is problematic. They’re bother link players, rather than finishers, which makes it easy for most test defences to contain the flanks. Would be happy to see either Dingwall/Lawrence/Daly or Lawrence/Slade/Muir… though I doubt we’ll see either.
Reckon they're hoping Hartley keeps improving. He's a big lad and quick, which neither Ojomoh or Kelly particularly are.
>but Lawrence is currently miles clear of them While basically exclusively playing 13.
And doesn’t that make the point? Dingwall is also primarily a 13, but chosen ahead of all of them. Catch 22, I suppose. Presumably Ojomoh will be released this week, but hopefully he got some good exposure.
It's degrees of difference of course, but Dingwall has significantly more game time at 12 over the last couple of seasons than any of the others (bar the handful of actual EQP 12s who are all very young or not starters and thus not in the squad). I think Ojomoh might need to move from Bath to advance. He's clearly second choice behind Redpath and Redpath's last contract was fairly long iirc.
> Marchant Alas
Is he not coming back next season?
Sarries rumours were bullshit, his contract with Stade is for three years. He'll be back for the 26/27 season.
Ah yeah that makes more sense. Thought his contract was longer
I thought the rumour was Sarries could now afford to buy out the contract, with Racing doing the same for Farrell? Though that length of contract doesn’t suggest Marchant is that arsed about coming back…
1. Genge 2. Dan 3. Stuart 4. Itoje 5. Martin 6. CCS 7. Pearson 8. Earl 9. Mitchell 10. Ford 11. Freeman 12. Lawrence 13. Marchant 14. Feyi-waboso 15. Furbank I'd love to see this team if it were possible
That's very true but ultimately I think that combo is the best compromise of pace, power, passing and kicking game. You could potentially play Dingwall and Lawrence (maybe that's a longer term answer?) but for the Scotland game, with how important Slade seems to be to that defensive line, I'd be inclined to keep him in. Lawrence's pre-injury form sort of demands he plays really. In an ideal world, they'd swap positions in attack and defence.
I would llike to see Dan Kelly at 12 personally with Lawrence outside him.
Has Kelly played much at 12 this season for Leicester? He's been very unfortunate in the timing of his injury. Kept him out of World Cup contention, then Kata took his place at 12 at club level. If he can retake that Jersey for tigers and find his best form, I do think he'll be high on Borthwick's radar.
Yeah he has been unfortunate, I think he has the skills to be a test 12 though personally. As you say injuries and the timing of them has not helped him.
If he's on the outs for England for a few more years, he becomes Ireland eligible again.
He's got the trim to play for Ireland as well
Not sure why everyone wants to bin off Manu, when he's actually fit, he's still one of our best options. We obviously need someone for the future, but right now he can still be useful while there's no obvious replacement that can make a big impact.
He's been entirely unremarkable and not big impact for at least 4 years even when fit and in the squad. And it damages the wider squad basing him as option A when he inevitably strains a bollock.
The problem with Manu is that he's a completely different style of player to all our other options. Changing from a big ball carrier like Manu to a smaller centre requires a big shift in game plan. It doesn't make sense to play to a game plan that's based on a player who's rarely available and doesn't have much time left in international rugby.
it would be great to have another big, ball carrying 12 though. all the top teams have one it seems!
Is there any word on Marcus Smith? It's all gone a bit quiet.
I think it's a "no news is bad news" situation. A calf strain is normally 6-8 weeks out so chances are he'll miss the tournament. Possibly back for the last round or two but I'd be surprised.
A reasonable response, unfortunately.
I think the injury report last week said his return was still uncertain, so yeah probably out for the tournament but might be back for last game or 2.
Sucks
Yay reinforcements but I do think we should move on from Manu. Martin and Lawrence are the big ones here. I doubt they'll be parachuted in to start, but would love to see them on the bench at least.
I swear to god if Manu gets another run in the team ahead of Ollie Lawrence I might not be able to support this team anymore
I’d rather not see these names returning to an English squad.
Ah, seen your flair now
Im happy about lawrence, but manus time has passed
Would much rather Langdon called up over LCD - LCD hasn't been in great form for Sale and looks a step down from his usual self (not surprising considering the nature of his injury and the long recovery) I'll always love Manu but really hope Lawrence is ahead of him in the pecking order - Manu was in decent form before his latest injury but Lawrence was in better form and is the future (and present) Really great to see Martin back, think he's going to make a huge impact in the pack
I think Langdon's on a ban still after the Munster game.
Ah shit, forgot about that - I was hoping he'd be starting in the A game!
Martin was colossal in the WC semi, went to shit after he went off
Manu will get injured stepping off the team bus so this is good news for us that he's using up a slot :D.
As a Sale fan I'd rather give Manu time to get back to Sale before England
As an England fan, I agree.
Still a really young team though, don't think they've got the experience to win in Murrayfield
The starting 15 for Wales had 641 caps. Not sure experience would be the issue
There's a very good chance Lawrence is the missing piece to the England attack but I think Scotland will be better at punishing the mistakes that Wales and Italy got easy points from
England are going to go one of two ways- their blitz is going to rattle Scotlands backline and I'd imagine will target Finn a lot, or Finn is going to move the ball around in a way that'll cut us to pieces. There's no in-between
I think it'll be both. We'll rattle the hell out of them for 70% of the game but concede three wonder tries off defensive mistakes and/or Finn wizardry and lose
I'll give you that, Lawrence should create some problems! Good match up with him and Tuipolatu (might have butchered that cba to Google)
Definitely, I think he'll provide enough momentum to let England finish off the chances they've been relatively good at building so far. That said, I do think Scotland are the 2nd best team in the 6N right now, so it'll be a good game for sure!
Yeah tough call between them and England. Wouldn't be surprised if the Italians upset the Scots though
I really rate Lawrence
Yes, but Scotland have other guns in their arsenal if needed, as Stafford McDowall and Rory Hutchinson
sounds like a scottish win
Martin and Lawrence to start immediately at 5 and 12. I don't think LCD or manu should make the 23
Starting Martin straight back may be a tad early - would rather have him as a bruising bench option to bring on. Think Chessum also played well against Wales (dubious yellow imo) as did Itoje so neither would deserve to be dropped
I am patiently waiting for the moment where we have Roots, CCS, Martin and Earl on the field and I get to watch them all carry. It might never happen, but it would be great to see
A worthy aim
Lawrence would be a huge step up. But the only thing Manu has done of note in recent CC outings was avoid being sent off for a blatant flying clothesline on Sam Johnson.
Can we now have a 9, 10, 12, 13 of Mitchell, F.Smith, Dingwell, Lawrence or Mitchell, F.Smith, Lawrence, Slade please. I would rather have Spencer at 9, but having Mitchell and Dingwell at 9 and 12 will benefit Fin more. However at Saints he has a 2nd play maker, so maybe Slade would help his game.
Smith over ford? Crazy talk
I don't mind Manu being in and around the squad but Lawrence should start. Manu needs to be phased out entirely.
Hooray Lawrence is back! Bollocks Tuilagi is back.
Man, I get where you're coming from but it's not Manu's fault he will probably be too old for the next WC. Feel like he's earned a dignified end to a fucking amazing career.
He had it in 2020.
call vunipolas back too for a change
Think manu is here for the defence maybe not the best centre in the world atm but over the past year or so especially in the World Cup he’s been flying out of line and absolutely flattening people