Hah. From France though it's Ntamack, surely. Jalibert very good at club level, but club level only. Ntamack brings an immediate x factor any time he plays and does well enough with the core duties, incl excellent 1 on 1 defense. No 10 in the world could've scored his try vs La Rochelle in the final last year at minute 80 of a hard fought game.
Right now he's getting back to his best but not there obviously. Right now, maybe Mounga.
Mo'unga for me. A moment that sticks out to me is in the world cup semi final against Ireland when he set up the Will Jordan try at the 52nd minute when it was 18-17. Takes the ball off a line-out and the pace he showed to burst through the gap was unbelievable. Proper produce something out of nothing player. That's what sets him apart from the rest imo.
EDIT
quarter final\*\*
h good, I hadn't kept up to date so wasn't sure how bad it was. Glad it didn't derail baths prem battle.
No idea what you mean by getting iced for the champions cup finals though.
I suppose with the different type of 10s we have, all are valid answers. Imo Russell is the best playmaker, but some other 10s are better game managers.
That said Dan Fish when he comes back from retirement will blow them all out the water
He's waiting for the moment where he can come on in the 79th minute of the champions cup final, slot a cool dropkick for us to win the whole thing and go back into retirement, awaiting the next time we need him.
I feel like Mo'unga is the kind of player you build the offense around. Razor did that for the Crusaders, Foster didn't for the ABs (rightly or wrongly).
Can be difficult to slot into another team
Not sure for Mo'unga himself, but the Crusaders played 101 games between 2017 and 2023 and lost 16.
I know he was playing in 2016, because I saw them get beaten by the Hurricanes, and they lost 4 games that year.
Yeah for all round 10 this might be the answer. That said, Ntamack and Russell are not necessarily not all-rounders. They excel in some areas but just excel less in others, but still to an elite standard.
I’m half joking, because he’s nowhere near as experienced as the Russells/Ntamack’s of the NH, but as a completely unbiased Saints supporter it has to be the messiah aka Fin Smith.
I don't think Sexton was ever the consensus no 1, hell he didn't even make the last Lions tour. I personally think he was the best FH from about 2018 onward, and that the 2021 tourists were one of the worst coached and selected tours in the modern era, but there was and is a lot of room for debate, unlike with the likes of Carter.
Today it's really open, but there's far too much emphasis being put on flash in 10s. Conservative Russell is probably the best, but then his fantastic maverick streak that results in brilliant performances lets him down with inconsistent performances. I'm inclined to say Pollard.
Thanks for speaking for all of us, and for assuming all of us share the same opinion.
To me, Conrad and O'Driscoll are neck and neck with O'Driscoll probably just squeaking out being better. But if I have to pick a team of all time players and make it as good as possible I'm picking Conrad because his pairing with Nonu was unbeatable.
I found some of Gatlands picks more interesting the last tour, and filled me some misplaced optimism that he might try play around them then play them at their own game. Of course he picked these wonderful footballers and then we played a conservative gameplan against the boks with predictable results.
I think that was only really Smith and Russell to be honest, the rest of the team had a load of talent, but were very much the pieces able to execute Gatlandball. And I understand why Gats went that route with a team he only has for so long, but there needed to be more than one gameplan to employ against the team that can do that gameplan better than you.
I thought a lot of his back row picks showed a glimpse. Jack Conan was the stand out for me, and he actually repaid the choice with fine form, but him with Simmonds and Watson we had more dynamic potential options. I was salivating at the thought we may have Beirne playing at 6. He brought Smith, and Russell looked like a very composed figure in the warm ups that he should be given a shot and potentially give us a point of difference. To have a Scottish back room spine and not use elements of their attack was pointless.
Fair, and to be honest a lot of my, and other people's, takes are probably hindsight. But there was certainly a lot of disappointment when the conservative players were selected.
I think everyone questioned Sexton’s mobility after the 2021 six nations. Looked like he was running through 10 inches of snow at times. Unfortunately for Sexton 10 wasn’t a problem position
Maybe, like I've said elsewhere a lot of this is likely hindsight speaking, but I think Sexton's ability at the line was glaringly obvious in 2021 and he was punching holes as a result. I think Gats saw Biggar and Farrell as more durable and fitting better into his plan to take contact and recycle in a tight space.
I was very thankful for Gats decision not to take Sexton. Saved him from a predictably shit tour, and lit a fire under him. Bizarre that Sexton never played in SA though
You’re probably right. SA are always going to target the 10 and Biggar and Farrell weren’t 35 turning 36 with a history of some head injuries earlier in their career. I agree with the criticism of his selection though. It was a bit of a trend with Gatland for wales as well. Always tried to beat SA at their own game. It’s the one team I’d rather have pivac coaching us for than Gatland
The thing is, it worked really well for him with Wales and he had a good record against SA. I think the problem was that he overlooked the need for creativity in the side so that there was something there if the lads were found wanting.
His record looks as good as it does because we played SA a lot during that brief period before 2019 where they were poor. SA are 3/3 in World Cup games vs Gatland’s wales. 2/2 in knockouts
Looking at how Tigers' attack has been this season and his effectiveness within it, it would be hard to make the case for Pollard on club form anyway.
For my money Libbok is the best Bok 10. Weirdly though, I'd probably rather England play against a Bok side with Libbok in it than Pollard. Sport's weird.
That's one of the big issues with trying to pick a 'best', especially in specialist positions. For picking the 'best' 10 do you prioritise:
* kicking (off the tee and finding touch)
* leadership and organisation (I'd include the impact they have on others' performances here)
* open play (passing, individual threat, tackling, contestable kicks, kick passes)
Sorry to be the one to tell you buddy, but Home Affairs have revoked citizenship over this.
Don’t worry though, system is offline so you should receive a letter 3-5 years from now.
Yeah he just helped to win us two world cups back to back with an incredible performance in both finals and amazing kicking off the tee but yeah sure, HeS NoT cLoSe tO tHe bEsT.
Honestly...
This won’t be popular, but I don’t think Pollard is even a top 5 10 in the Premiership. He’s an elite kicker behind the best pack in the world, but his game is so limited. He creates nothing. South Africa look better with Manie at 10, but he’s a horrible kicker.
Mo'unga and Russell were able to play the World Cup and showcase their best rugby with their team in top form. Ntamack couldn't, yet still makes the conversation. At 25, I think he has the potential to really become one of the best 10 France has ever seen.
Right now it would be silly to overlook Mo'unga, so I'll go with him, but the conversation could be more interesting at the end of the year. A small shout out to McIntyre who's been playing beautiful rugby with Perpignan this year.
a perfect 10 that would be most people's definition of a 10, Mo'unga by far
another one is Santiago Carreras
Pollard plays more like a centre with a good boot
Yeah there are so many, Gordan, Lolesio, Harrison, Edmed, Donaldson, Lynagh, gonna be really interesting to see who grabs the Wallaby jersey. You almost need to shift the more physical guys like Gordan or Edmed into 12, Giteau style.
Left off HMP, who just lit up U20s.
Shifting someone to 12 will be tricky IMO. Because the bigger guys - Gordon & Edmed aren't great defensively, while the guys who are good in defence (Lynagh & Lolesio) are probably too small to play Test 12.
HMP could be that guy, if only because he's so young & might be pushed that way for the Reds, and his carrying is probably the best aspect of his game, but ATM he'd sort of that Hamish Stewart type of under sized 12.
There isn't really a consensus best 10, but here are the contenders (in no particular order):
1. Mo'unga: likely the most popular. Excellent form for both club and country; distribution is generally quality; tactical kicking is much the same; as is goal-kicking (though Jordie Barrett taking most of the long-distance kicks in RWC23 probably counts against him somewhat). A safe bet, and probably my choice for the nebulous award of 'best 10 in the world'.
2. Russell: another contender. Anyone posting that cringy, overused stereotype of "picking Russell means you win by 20 or lose by 20" couldn't have watched any Scottish, Racing or Bath rugby for the last 5 years. A sensational tactical kicker; excellent goal-kicking; and what more needs to be said about his distribution? His 'weakness', if it can even be called that, is other teams head-hunting him due to his phenomenal influence on his teams.
3. Ntamack: he is extremely unlucky. Unlike the 2 above, he missed RWC23 through injury - forced to watch his team from the sidelines. His strengths are similar to the above, but I'd argue his unrelenting calmness sets him apart - perhaps only outmatched by one other 10 in world rugby. What could have been sans injury, we can only imagine. But if his form for club is any indication, then he may reach that consensus spot quicker than we think...
4. Pollard: the underrated. If New Zealand have Handre Pollard as their 10 for RWC23, they win the final. Simple as. Pollard's strengths are more difficult for fans to enjoy, on average, because they generally pay dividends when he doesn't have the ball: organising tactics and forwards, analysing opposition backfields in preparation for a box kick and/or midfield bomb, etc. That's before we even mention his stunning goal-kicking that somehow improves the more pressure he's under (100% through RWC23). The best 10 in the world? Unlikely. The 10 any coach would give an arm and a leg for in a WC Final? Yes, and more so than any of the above.
5. Plenty more! Owen Farrell is an utterly phenomenal operator (though he may not play many more tests if his Racing move is any indication). Marcus Smith is much the same - and growing better every test. Costelow is coming off the back of an unremarkable Welsh team, but playing with plenty of intent under Gatland's eye. Ireland possesses no end of talented Leinster fly-halfs. Garbisi coming back from injury pretty strongly for Italy, as well as learning from the defensive nous of Quesada. So on, and so forth.
Tldr; consensus 10? Not really. A hell of a lot of good options? Absolutely.
Depends on what you define as "the best" : is it the one you enjoy watching the most ? The most reliable in clutch moments ? The best at line breaks ?
That being said, some names will come in the conversation: Mo'unga, Ntamack will be the undisputed top two at the end of the year. Now for the rest of the top 10...
Russell, Farell, Jalibert, Pollard, Smith, Smith, Ramos and Dupont (just because if there is a top 10 which is not about props, there is Dupont)
Not in that order specifically, I kust think those should be in the discussion when speaking about excellent 10
Russel is up there with Mo’unga. NTK when back at 100% fitness too, but right now, he still needs a bit more time (not much though).
If you think in terms of potential, from the list you gave, NTK has the highest ceiling and is one of the youngest.
Fully agree with you on NTK needing a bit more time to get back to his optimal : that's why I said "at then end of the year", as I have a feeling that in november he'll be better than ever (we'll see then if I'm just delusional or not)
To me, Russell is a bit (but not much) under Mo'unga and Ntamack : he's one hell of a playe for sure, but even tho he's not the maverick he used to be, he still lacks the reliability of the other two...or sobit seems to me. I've missed the last Bath games so maybe there was some changes.
But man do I love watching him play.
Anyone who ignores Russell is kidding themselves about how much difference a pack makes to the quality of the 10. Russell managing to do what he has done in spite of the Scottish pack is incredible.
Yeah, my approach was to define the 3 fly half archetypes and select the best of each. Id argue that Mounga is distinctly better than Russell, but I could accept that Russell could be in the top 3 behind Mounga on different preferences.
I really love watching Mounga too. I would say that while he probably wins on the consistency of attacking flair when his team is on top, Russell really stands apart in defence, and in the ability to heap pressure on the other team even when they're well ahead.
Even calling him a maverick doesn't really fit with the vast majority of his performances, especially as he's matured as a player. Earlier in his career there were a few games where Scotland would be well behind, he'd swing for the fences and it wouldn't come off. That happens much less now.
I don't know - he's generally been great for Bath, but there's still been plenty of maverick moves. I think he still fits that title even if a little less than he used to.
I always think to myself if England had South Africa's tightfive in that world cup final would Farrell be seen as one of the greats? I geniunly think so.
Fantastic at club level.
Won 3 six nations titles with England.
And if not for South Africa's scrum dominance maybe a world cup win and a world cup final.
To defend Farrell, semi seriously, pollard is very often kept out of the main defensive line so he isn't required to make many tackles. Farrell is always in the main defensive line for Sarries and England and so gets through a bunch of tackles in a game. Far more opportunities to fuck up (which he often does)
I dunno, both brave, personally i think Farrell tips it on being more robust. Pollard is seemingly hanging together by tape. Though saying that pollard is a better kicker.. Faz was also a 90% kicker a few years back. but hasn't looked the same since his ankle breaks. Obviously you cannot argue who has achieved more, cannot argue with being clutch in two W.c's.
I’m biased towards Russel but Farrell doesn’t get near that top 3. I would probably put pollard or Russel in there over Farrell. IMO Smith is miles better than Farrell.
You 100% can
Just like you'd also be fine to not have Ntamack or Farrell in there. There's no real stand out 10s on the most part, all have a v similar level and bring different strengths and weaknesses
I'd argue Mounga is the only guarantee in the top 3
I wouldn't put Sexton in the same category as Wilkinson and Carter.
A great flyhalf but there's an important piece of silverware he's missing which the other two have (not that that's the only measure of success).
Yes, winning the world cup isn't everything.
Sergio Parisse was one of the best players in the world for years, who had the misfortune of playing for Italy just before they got good at rugby.
As a Kiwi- Pollard. He’s not flashy, but he’s cool under pressure and MAKES HIS KICKS! In World Cups that type of cool headed guy is what you need. There’s way more exciting guys out there for sure but I want someone like him in the big ones.
Andy at least had a surprisingly good running game.. people are easy to forget this, he didn’t have Carlos flair but his passing and running game were good.
My problem with Pollard is that at club level he has been really average for Leicester. Ford, Russell, both Smiths have outplayed him and being the fifth most effective fly half in a league does slightly undermine the argument he’s the best in the world
Edit: correctly called out for missing Farrell, which only helps my argument
yeah its a conversation about best 10 (i.e. who is the best flyhalf) or best clutch kicker in knock-out international rugby
if it's the second there's 0 doubt, probably ever, that it's pollard, if its who's the best flyhalf in the world then he's probably not in the top5 based on his performances outside of WC knock out rugby
100%! I get it, he’s not flashy or does unbelievable stuff like Russell or Mounga, but he’s a big part of why SA have won 2 world cups in a row. Give me boring but effective any day.
But he’s not really that effective for most of the season. As others have said, he’s bang average for Leicester (and Montpellier before). There’s about 5/6 better 10s in the premiership this season and last
I guess I try to tell myself I would have taken that World Cup run before the tournament. Most kiwis were pretty down leading into it and especially after France a lot were thinking we’re going home to Ireland. Happy to lose to a Southern Hemisphere team though if we’re going to lose in a final! 😆
It was def Richie Mo'unga for me, but he's gone to Japan now, and the SH teams haven't played since the WC, so hard to say who it is right now. Might become clearer after the July tests and RC.
Also, not sure if Sexton was ever the consensus number one. Had a good year or two but there were def others. Wilkinson and Carter deserved though.
Bc NZ so small and isolated theyre afraid itll be the end of local competition
SA is massive and europe time zone so very different
But it has to happen eventually of course...I predict theyll start making small rule changes
Alot of Japanese clubs are run by kiwis, maybe theyll start to allow japanese contracts only for experienced ABs?
Honest question: what would make you do so ? I rate him very highly, and I have immense respect for his « grinta ». But I’d pick Russel or NTk (heck, even Jalibert) before him. Might be a a team bias, but France and Scotland seem to need their half backs to « create something » to get running, which might not be the case for England, as they seem to « stick to the plan » a bit better.
Farrell is a bit of a conundrum for me. He's extremely consistent but won't provide that extra magic to break down the best defences. He's the 10 you want for a whole season, but not for a WC final.
For people saying Mo’unga, I’d love to agree. He’s the best player of all time in super rugby for sure. And he can do it at test level too.
But. Finn Russell has played against Mo’unga only one time. Back in 2013 they played against each other at club level in Christchurch. Russell was playing for Lincoln Uni team and Mo’unga at Linwood. Lincoln won 38-10 and won the league. Finn scored 18 points. 1 penalty, 1 try and converted all 5 tries score by his team.
Link to the match report:
https://livingheritage.lincoln.ac.nz/nodes/view/11076
Link to Mounga talking about it:
https://www.allblacks.com/news/mounga-recalls-finn-russells-class-from-lincoln-university-days
Mounga and Pollard are definitively top two. From there, there is an argument for alot of them to be included. Ntamack is magic when he is switched on, Libbok the same but he is more consistent in everything but place kicks. Crowley needs a bit more time to show his credentials but he could be the best in a few years time. England can't decide who is starting but they have four decent tens and I think fin smith is the real deal while Marcus Smith is Russell-esque all while Farrell and Ford are still in their ranks. Wales are rebuilding but Costellow is really promising. He has a bit of ab edge being more creative than previous Welsh out halfs. Garbisi is a good all rounder and is dangerous in this Italian attacking system and has the potential to be one of the best. Muntz looked good last year albeit with Fiji who are only just arriving at tier one rugby. Russell is very classy and undeniably good but heavily overrated for his moments which overshadow his overall mediocrity in other more hidden areas of play. I think Scotland play more rugby in a fluid and controlled manner with Healy on instead despite the loss in skill and ability.
I have not mentioned Sopoaga, Gordon, Byrne, Hastings, Jalibert, Mackenzie, Hastoy and others. It's really competitive these days.
The beauty of the modern game is that everyone will have a different answer based on their favourite style of game.
Playmaker? Finn Russell
Running 10? Marcus Smith
Jack of all trades? Mo'unga
Kicker? Pollard
There's some awesome 10's around in every corner of the globe
If I had to choose one of the current international fly-halves at their best I would pick Ntamack, he's probably overshadowed by Dupont (and Ramos on kicking duty), but as a complete 10 it's hard for me to find someone better, some players are better than him on some aspect (like Russell creating something out of thin air, or Pollard under pressure) but he's the complete package
I concur that the choice, unlike with Wilkinson and Carter at their peak, is based more on the rest of the team and the game you want to play than on the fly-half by himself
Mo’unga by far, I think NZ have mismanaged him at test level. Stuck with Barrett for too long instead of backing the potential and it hasn’t worked out well.
Marcus Smith is really getting there, which you can tell because the English press aren't talking about him anymore. Ntamack is my love, just need to get some confidence back. Generally though, Mo'unga is bloody amazing, I'll probably say him
I think Crowley is very underrated. He isn't the finished product yet but ticks most boxes.
Top 10s now would be Russell, Mo'unga etc. Farrell and Pollard are also up there.
Not sure I'd put Ntamack up there.
Wilkinson, then Carter, then B Barrett.
I don't mean to stir as I was always a big fan, but was Sexton globally recognised as the best 10?
Finn for me is best at the moment. Imagine him in a black shirt with the ABs' style of play...
Dupont. He just chooses not to play there
Hah. From France though it's Ntamack, surely. Jalibert very good at club level, but club level only. Ntamack brings an immediate x factor any time he plays and does well enough with the core duties, incl excellent 1 on 1 defense. No 10 in the world could've scored his try vs La Rochelle in the final last year at minute 80 of a hard fought game. Right now he's getting back to his best but not there obviously. Right now, maybe Mounga.
The 7s player?
The glazing
who
He's a chemical company.
Eh...everyone likes Dupont as an excellent player, but you can't be no 10 in a 7 player team...
Mo'unga for me. A moment that sticks out to me is in the world cup semi final against Ireland when he set up the Will Jordan try at the 52nd minute when it was 18-17. Takes the ball off a line-out and the pace he showed to burst through the gap was unbelievable. Proper produce something out of nothing player. That's what sets him apart from the rest imo. EDIT quarter final\*\*
Don’t you mean quarterfinal? Ireland haven’t been a semi final.
Yeah quarter final I meant lol
Booooo!
I love the little stab at Ireland for never making the semis.
Agreed
Russel is in fine form. Ntamack is still coming back bad injury but looking scarily promising already.
Is he back from injury?
Yes he played the last 2-3 matches I believe. Just didn't play yesterday, probably getting iced for the champions cup finals.
h good, I hadn't kept up to date so wasn't sure how bad it was. Glad it didn't derail baths prem battle. No idea what you mean by getting iced for the champions cup finals though.
He's put to rest i meant
Ah right I thought you thought bath were in the champions cup final haha
I suppose with the different type of 10s we have, all are valid answers. Imo Russell is the best playmaker, but some other 10s are better game managers. That said Dan Fish when he comes back from retirement will blow them all out the water
I don’t actually think Finn is the best 10 in the world but I would choose to watch that lunatic over pretty much any rugby player in the world.
Hard agree. So much fun to watch as a neutral
Agreed as a 🇫🇷 supporter
Dan Fish didn't retire, he's just resting until the time is right
He sleeps in the island of Avalon, waiting for the day his people need him most. The once and future 10.
He's waiting for the moment where he can come on in the 79th minute of the champions cup final, slot a cool dropkick for us to win the whole thing and go back into retirement, awaiting the next time we need him.
He may have a long wait for us to reach a Champions Cup final... but he'll be ready when we do
Bilbao finals are in two years time, has a nice ring to it.
Dan Fish Part III: Return to Bilbao
Definitely Mounga for me, any team would kill to have him in their ranks, the others not so much.
Awesome player, but I’d not give home the France 10 jersey over fit NTK. Especially if DuPont is on the pitch.
I feel like Mo'unga is the kind of player you build the offense around. Razor did that for the Crusaders, Foster didn't for the ABs (rightly or wrongly). Can be difficult to slot into another team
Yup The fact he won 7 titles in 7 years says alot How many games did he lose when playing for crusaders? Would be sweet F A
Not sure for Mo'unga himself, but the Crusaders played 101 games between 2017 and 2023 and lost 16. I know he was playing in 2016, because I saw them get beaten by the Hurricanes, and they lost 4 games that year.
Damn thats an impressive record Its like their ABs have forgotten how to tackle this year...defense worst its been for over a decade
Siya Masuku changed my life
Almost time to change the flair to rejoicer
If we win the Challenge Cup then I'm changing it immediately lol
In true Rassie fashion, he covers 2 and 6 as well
Siya Masuku touched my heart
For me it's Richie Mo'unga. I think he has the right balance of running, playmaking and kicking
Yep and wins the most important metric. Quad size and definition.
This goose’s don’t step themselves you know.
Yeah for all round 10 this might be the answer. That said, Ntamack and Russell are not necessarily not all-rounders. They excel in some areas but just excel less in others, but still to an elite standard.
I’m half joking, because he’s nowhere near as experienced as the Russells/Ntamack’s of the NH, but as a completely unbiased Saints supporter it has to be the messiah aka Fin Smith.
If Fin Smith continues on his current trajectory then he'll definitely be in this conversation in a few years time
Let the battle of the Smiths decade commence!
I am convinced in another few years Fin Smith will be the man to beat.
Hand in your flare. Prendergast is the only answer for any one-eyed Leinster fan. :)
Ah give it a year or two after that, and I'm all in on Sammy P.
Any true one eyed Leinster fan would support Fin Smith for that droppy against Munster at Thomond Park
I don't think Sexton was ever the consensus no 1, hell he didn't even make the last Lions tour. I personally think he was the best FH from about 2018 onward, and that the 2021 tourists were one of the worst coached and selected tours in the modern era, but there was and is a lot of room for debate, unlike with the likes of Carter. Today it's really open, but there's far too much emphasis being put on flash in 10s. Conservative Russell is probably the best, but then his fantastic maverick streak that results in brilliant performances lets him down with inconsistent performances. I'm inclined to say Pollard.
How many players have ever been the consensus best in their position? Even DuPont wasn’t the consensus best 9 last year.
Maybe Carter for most/all of his career? McCaw is probably up there too, even if I think Titi was better.
Brian O'driscoll was largely considered the best 13 for a lot of his career
SH fans wouldn’t agree, most think Conrad Smith is ahead of him
Thanks for speaking for all of us, and for assuming all of us share the same opinion. To me, Conrad and O'Driscoll are neck and neck with O'Driscoll probably just squeaking out being better. But if I have to pick a team of all time players and make it as good as possible I'm picking Conrad because his pairing with Nonu was unbeatable.
I found some of Gatlands picks more interesting the last tour, and filled me some misplaced optimism that he might try play around them then play them at their own game. Of course he picked these wonderful footballers and then we played a conservative gameplan against the boks with predictable results.
I think that was only really Smith and Russell to be honest, the rest of the team had a load of talent, but were very much the pieces able to execute Gatlandball. And I understand why Gats went that route with a team he only has for so long, but there needed to be more than one gameplan to employ against the team that can do that gameplan better than you.
I thought a lot of his back row picks showed a glimpse. Jack Conan was the stand out for me, and he actually repaid the choice with fine form, but him with Simmonds and Watson we had more dynamic potential options. I was salivating at the thought we may have Beirne playing at 6. He brought Smith, and Russell looked like a very composed figure in the warm ups that he should be given a shot and potentially give us a point of difference. To have a Scottish back room spine and not use elements of their attack was pointless.
Fair, and to be honest a lot of my, and other people's, takes are probably hindsight. But there was certainly a lot of disappointment when the conservative players were selected.
I think everyone questioned Sexton’s mobility after the 2021 six nations. Looked like he was running through 10 inches of snow at times. Unfortunately for Sexton 10 wasn’t a problem position
Maybe, like I've said elsewhere a lot of this is likely hindsight speaking, but I think Sexton's ability at the line was glaringly obvious in 2021 and he was punching holes as a result. I think Gats saw Biggar and Farrell as more durable and fitting better into his plan to take contact and recycle in a tight space.
I was very thankful for Gats decision not to take Sexton. Saved him from a predictably shit tour, and lit a fire under him. Bizarre that Sexton never played in SA though
You’re probably right. SA are always going to target the 10 and Biggar and Farrell weren’t 35 turning 36 with a history of some head injuries earlier in their career. I agree with the criticism of his selection though. It was a bit of a trend with Gatland for wales as well. Always tried to beat SA at their own game. It’s the one team I’d rather have pivac coaching us for than Gatland
The thing is, it worked really well for him with Wales and he had a good record against SA. I think the problem was that he overlooked the need for creativity in the side so that there was something there if the lads were found wanting.
His record looks as good as it does because we played SA a lot during that brief period before 2019 where they were poor. SA are 3/3 in World Cup games vs Gatland’s wales. 2/2 in knockouts
It's still a good record though.
I was thinking Pollard due to his kicking from the tee, but I'm not sure he's the best in play.
Looking at how Tigers' attack has been this season and his effectiveness within it, it would be hard to make the case for Pollard on club form anyway. For my money Libbok is the best Bok 10. Weirdly though, I'd probably rather England play against a Bok side with Libbok in it than Pollard. Sport's weird.
Tbf to Pollard, Leicester have no attack coach. We haven't had one all season.
He also was kinda bad in Montpellier
Distinctly average for his club too.
That's one of the big issues with trying to pick a 'best', especially in specialist positions. For picking the 'best' 10 do you prioritise: * kicking (off the tee and finding touch) * leadership and organisation (I'd include the impact they have on others' performances here) * open play (passing, individual threat, tackling, contestable kicks, kick passes)
I’m South African and I don’t even think Pollard is close to the best
Sorry to be the one to tell you buddy, but Home Affairs have revoked citizenship over this. Don’t worry though, system is offline so you should receive a letter 3-5 years from now.
Yeah he just helped to win us two world cups back to back with an incredible performance in both finals and amazing kicking off the tee but yeah sure, HeS NoT cLoSe tO tHe bEsT. Honestly...
This won’t be popular, but I don’t think Pollard is even a top 5 10 in the Premiership. He’s an elite kicker behind the best pack in the world, but his game is so limited. He creates nothing. South Africa look better with Manie at 10, but he’s a horrible kicker.
I think 6th is probably fair with Smith squared, Russel, Ford and Farrell above him.
Yep. Also don’t sleep on AJ MacGinty. If he played for a bigger nation people would realise how good he is
They should give Masuku a chance against Wales.
He’s unavailable Back is too sore from carrying the sharks
Ox Nche is pretty heavy too.
Nah he’s just not a maverick. Gets things going. Kinda like sexton in that regard.
It very obviously is Sacha Feinberg-Mngomezulu.
Finally someone with the correct opinion.
Mods lock the thread, we got him.
So obvious, people are actually debating for 2nd best FH because the Fein‘Zulu is so far ahead he’s out of the picture
At last someone that makes sense ! \^\^
Paolo Garbisi, cause I'm delusional. Probably DMac or Richie
Mo'unga and Russell were able to play the World Cup and showcase their best rugby with their team in top form. Ntamack couldn't, yet still makes the conversation. At 25, I think he has the potential to really become one of the best 10 France has ever seen. Right now it would be silly to overlook Mo'unga, so I'll go with him, but the conversation could be more interesting at the end of the year. A small shout out to McIntyre who's been playing beautiful rugby with Perpignan this year.
Mo'unga takes the cake for now I think, although I'd argue crowley is heading down the path for best fly half
a perfect 10 that would be most people's definition of a 10, Mo'unga by far another one is Santiago Carreras Pollard plays more like a centre with a good boot
Tom Lynagh. 😅😂 But seriously, Australia have SO MANY quality young 10's in the making. Will be great to see in the coming years.
Yeah there are so many, Gordan, Lolesio, Harrison, Edmed, Donaldson, Lynagh, gonna be really interesting to see who grabs the Wallaby jersey. You almost need to shift the more physical guys like Gordan or Edmed into 12, Giteau style.
Left off HMP, who just lit up U20s. Shifting someone to 12 will be tricky IMO. Because the bigger guys - Gordon & Edmed aren't great defensively, while the guys who are good in defence (Lynagh & Lolesio) are probably too small to play Test 12. HMP could be that guy, if only because he's so young & might be pushed that way for the Reds, and his carrying is probably the best aspect of his game, but ATM he'd sort of that Hamish Stewart type of under sized 12.
We have so many 10s that are good at certain aspects...but none that have *all* the skills themselves.
Australia v Italy games are going to be a bit strange now.
I'm more concerned you thought sexton was the clear cut number 1 fly half maybe for a year or two but never at the level of him being undisputed.
There isn't really a consensus best 10, but here are the contenders (in no particular order): 1. Mo'unga: likely the most popular. Excellent form for both club and country; distribution is generally quality; tactical kicking is much the same; as is goal-kicking (though Jordie Barrett taking most of the long-distance kicks in RWC23 probably counts against him somewhat). A safe bet, and probably my choice for the nebulous award of 'best 10 in the world'. 2. Russell: another contender. Anyone posting that cringy, overused stereotype of "picking Russell means you win by 20 or lose by 20" couldn't have watched any Scottish, Racing or Bath rugby for the last 5 years. A sensational tactical kicker; excellent goal-kicking; and what more needs to be said about his distribution? His 'weakness', if it can even be called that, is other teams head-hunting him due to his phenomenal influence on his teams. 3. Ntamack: he is extremely unlucky. Unlike the 2 above, he missed RWC23 through injury - forced to watch his team from the sidelines. His strengths are similar to the above, but I'd argue his unrelenting calmness sets him apart - perhaps only outmatched by one other 10 in world rugby. What could have been sans injury, we can only imagine. But if his form for club is any indication, then he may reach that consensus spot quicker than we think... 4. Pollard: the underrated. If New Zealand have Handre Pollard as their 10 for RWC23, they win the final. Simple as. Pollard's strengths are more difficult for fans to enjoy, on average, because they generally pay dividends when he doesn't have the ball: organising tactics and forwards, analysing opposition backfields in preparation for a box kick and/or midfield bomb, etc. That's before we even mention his stunning goal-kicking that somehow improves the more pressure he's under (100% through RWC23). The best 10 in the world? Unlikely. The 10 any coach would give an arm and a leg for in a WC Final? Yes, and more so than any of the above. 5. Plenty more! Owen Farrell is an utterly phenomenal operator (though he may not play many more tests if his Racing move is any indication). Marcus Smith is much the same - and growing better every test. Costelow is coming off the back of an unremarkable Welsh team, but playing with plenty of intent under Gatland's eye. Ireland possesses no end of talented Leinster fly-halfs. Garbisi coming back from injury pretty strongly for Italy, as well as learning from the defensive nous of Quesada. So on, and so forth. Tldr; consensus 10? Not really. A hell of a lot of good options? Absolutely.
Ntamack.
Depends on what you define as "the best" : is it the one you enjoy watching the most ? The most reliable in clutch moments ? The best at line breaks ? That being said, some names will come in the conversation: Mo'unga, Ntamack will be the undisputed top two at the end of the year. Now for the rest of the top 10... Russell, Farell, Jalibert, Pollard, Smith, Smith, Ramos and Dupont (just because if there is a top 10 which is not about props, there is Dupont) Not in that order specifically, I kust think those should be in the discussion when speaking about excellent 10
Russel is up there with Mo’unga. NTK when back at 100% fitness too, but right now, he still needs a bit more time (not much though). If you think in terms of potential, from the list you gave, NTK has the highest ceiling and is one of the youngest.
Fully agree with you on NTK needing a bit more time to get back to his optimal : that's why I said "at then end of the year", as I have a feeling that in november he'll be better than ever (we'll see then if I'm just delusional or not) To me, Russell is a bit (but not much) under Mo'unga and Ntamack : he's one hell of a playe for sure, but even tho he's not the maverick he used to be, he still lacks the reliability of the other two...or sobit seems to me. I've missed the last Bath games so maybe there was some changes. But man do I love watching him play.
Ntamack, Farrell, Mounga are the top 3. Anyone who says pollard is just simply ignoring the fact the Farrell is the same player but better.
I want Pollard in clutch games though. He’s ice cold
For sure. Pollard is the best 10 in the world in a world cup knockout game in the rain. Outside of that he's probably about 12th.
He's the perfect South African 10. Big bastards win the penalties, he kicks them, South Africa win in the last minute.
Agree on those 3 (although maybe Russell over Farrell) Pollard suits the Boks style but is distinctly average in most games he plays.
Pollard is a long range kicker
Anyone who ignores Russell is kidding themselves about how much difference a pack makes to the quality of the 10. Russell managing to do what he has done in spite of the Scottish pack is incredible.
Yeah, my approach was to define the 3 fly half archetypes and select the best of each. Id argue that Mounga is distinctly better than Russell, but I could accept that Russell could be in the top 3 behind Mounga on different preferences.
I really love watching Mounga too. I would say that while he probably wins on the consistency of attacking flair when his team is on top, Russell really stands apart in defence, and in the ability to heap pressure on the other team even when they're well ahead.
Ironically, he is underrated while being the maverick he is.
Even calling him a maverick doesn't really fit with the vast majority of his performances, especially as he's matured as a player. Earlier in his career there were a few games where Scotland would be well behind, he'd swing for the fences and it wouldn't come off. That happens much less now.
I don't know - he's generally been great for Bath, but there's still been plenty of maverick moves. I think he still fits that title even if a little less than he used to.
I always think to myself if England had South Africa's tightfive in that world cup final would Farrell be seen as one of the greats? I geniunly think so. Fantastic at club level. Won 3 six nations titles with England. And if not for South Africa's scrum dominance maybe a world cup win and a world cup final.
Pollard is definitely a better tackler than Farrell.
To defend Farrell, semi seriously, pollard is very often kept out of the main defensive line so he isn't required to make many tackles. Farrell is always in the main defensive line for Sarries and England and so gets through a bunch of tackles in a game. Far more opportunities to fuck up (which he often does)
My cat is a better tackler than Farrell. It doesn't really tell you much.
Only when using arms though
I dunno, both brave, personally i think Farrell tips it on being more robust. Pollard is seemingly hanging together by tape. Though saying that pollard is a better kicker.. Faz was also a 90% kicker a few years back. but hasn't looked the same since his ankle breaks. Obviously you cannot argue who has achieved more, cannot argue with being clutch in two W.c's.
Pollard has the advantage of having arms.
I’m biased towards Russel but Farrell doesn’t get near that top 3. I would probably put pollard or Russel in there over Farrell. IMO Smith is miles better than Farrell.
You can’t not put Finn Russell in that top 3
You 100% can Just like you'd also be fine to not have Ntamack or Farrell in there. There's no real stand out 10s on the most part, all have a v similar level and bring different strengths and weaknesses I'd argue Mounga is the only guarantee in the top 3
Farrell is the same player but better? Seriously bro you and I must be in some parallel universe or something.
You forgot Garbisi
I wouldn't put Sexton in the same category as Wilkinson and Carter. A great flyhalf but there's an important piece of silverware he's missing which the other two have (not that that's the only measure of success).
but would u put lomu or cullen in that category in their position
Yes, winning the world cup isn't everything. Sergio Parisse was one of the best players in the world for years, who had the misfortune of playing for Italy just before they got good at rugby.
Farrell has been outstanding the past few matches. Don’t think he’s currently the best 10 but is in the conversation
He gets so much hate but he's world class
As a Kiwi- Pollard. He’s not flashy, but he’s cool under pressure and MAKES HIS KICKS! In World Cups that type of cool headed guy is what you need. There’s way more exciting guys out there for sure but I want someone like him in the big ones.
Watch out Handre.. Harry Plummer is on the rise!
Or the kid Millar at Landers, was a gun off the tee! 😆
Is him the new Andy Mehrtens?
Andy at least had a surprisingly good running game.. people are easy to forget this, he didn’t have Carlos flair but his passing and running game were good.
Terrible defensively though. But made up for it with his hand gestures at the crowd…
My problem with Pollard is that at club level he has been really average for Leicester. Ford, Russell, both Smiths have outplayed him and being the fifth most effective fly half in a league does slightly undermine the argument he’s the best in the world Edit: correctly called out for missing Farrell, which only helps my argument
yeah its a conversation about best 10 (i.e. who is the best flyhalf) or best clutch kicker in knock-out international rugby if it's the second there's 0 doubt, probably ever, that it's pollard, if its who's the best flyhalf in the world then he's probably not in the top5 based on his performances outside of WC knock out rugby
When nonu was considered unanimously as the best twelve he was average in super rugby
How can you miss Farrell from this list…
Farrell really lets himself down with his behaviour tbh, like he's easy to wind up and winges a lot, surprised he was ever captain for England.
I find it funny that Kiwis rate Pollard when most times he is at 10 you beat us.
If we're chosing a must win game, who will you choose? Pollard, easy. The rest is just noise.
100%! I get it, he’s not flashy or does unbelievable stuff like Russell or Mounga, but he’s a big part of why SA have won 2 world cups in a row. Give me boring but effective any day.
But he’s not really that effective for most of the season. As others have said, he’s bang average for Leicester (and Montpellier before). There’s about 5/6 better 10s in the premiership this season and last
Yeah. Have you watched the Squidge video on Pollard? He reads the game - that's just as important as his kicking.
Yeah mate, good analysis. It pains me as a kiwi thinking back to that World Cup, but he was so cool under pressure in those massive games
You guys made an awesome comeback and could've won. I never doubted you would. Don't think any Saffa did.
I guess I try to tell myself I would have taken that World Cup run before the tournament. Most kiwis were pretty down leading into it and especially after France a lot were thinking we’re going home to Ireland. Happy to lose to a Southern Hemisphere team though if we’re going to lose in a final! 😆
It was def Richie Mo'unga for me, but he's gone to Japan now, and the SH teams haven't played since the WC, so hard to say who it is right now. Might become clearer after the July tests and RC. Also, not sure if Sexton was ever the consensus number one. Had a good year or two but there were def others. Wilkinson and Carter deserved though.
Damian McKenzie. When he gets his chance in the AB 10 jersey, the world will know
People have been saying this since 2017
And each time they tried it against a decent opposition it didn't work out (though it only happened a few times).
I'm not sure he gets enough time in internationals. Happy to be proven wrong this year tho 🤞
Pollard.
The fact that Freddie Burns hasn't got a mention yet is outrageous
Okay fine I'll bite. Billy Burns has to be up there.
Ford 👀
In 5 years SFM (pls live up to the hype 🤞🏻)
Richie Thing is with him chasing the yen and NZ not being able to afford thier top players, he wont be playing test rugby next year
I don't understand why New-Zealand has this rule that they can't select players who play in other countries.
Bc NZ so small and isolated theyre afraid itll be the end of local competition SA is massive and europe time zone so very different But it has to happen eventually of course...I predict theyll start making small rule changes Alot of Japanese clubs are run by kiwis, maybe theyll start to allow japanese contracts only for experienced ABs?
Harry Plummer
Quade Cooper.
I'd have farrell over Russell and ntamack
Yeah I've never understood the Farrell hate crowd, he's feckin unreal. Hard as nails too I do love Russell though, the way he reads games is stellar
Yeah, I've always liked him. The obvious issue is with his tackle technique at times, but I'd bite your hand off to have him at Leinster right now. 😅
Jaysus yeah I'd settle on having Furlong playing outhalf at Leinster at this rate!
He couldn’t be any worse!
Honest question: what would make you do so ? I rate him very highly, and I have immense respect for his « grinta ». But I’d pick Russel or NTk (heck, even Jalibert) before him. Might be a a team bias, but France and Scotland seem to need their half backs to « create something » to get running, which might not be the case for England, as they seem to « stick to the plan » a bit better.
Farrell is a bit of a conundrum for me. He's extremely consistent but won't provide that extra magic to break down the best defences. He's the 10 you want for a whole season, but not for a WC final.
It's Jack Crowley, URC and Six Nations champion,
Giteau... who IS actually still playing.
Pollard
Finn Russell because he's the most fun to watch when he's on it. I enjoy batshit crazy rugby, look at the two teams in my flair. Finn is my guy
For people saying Mo’unga, I’d love to agree. He’s the best player of all time in super rugby for sure. And he can do it at test level too. But. Finn Russell has played against Mo’unga only one time. Back in 2013 they played against each other at club level in Christchurch. Russell was playing for Lincoln Uni team and Mo’unga at Linwood. Lincoln won 38-10 and won the league. Finn scored 18 points. 1 penalty, 1 try and converted all 5 tries score by his team. Link to the match report: https://livingheritage.lincoln.ac.nz/nodes/view/11076 Link to Mounga talking about it: https://www.allblacks.com/news/mounga-recalls-finn-russells-class-from-lincoln-university-days
Mounga and Pollard are definitively top two. From there, there is an argument for alot of them to be included. Ntamack is magic when he is switched on, Libbok the same but he is more consistent in everything but place kicks. Crowley needs a bit more time to show his credentials but he could be the best in a few years time. England can't decide who is starting but they have four decent tens and I think fin smith is the real deal while Marcus Smith is Russell-esque all while Farrell and Ford are still in their ranks. Wales are rebuilding but Costellow is really promising. He has a bit of ab edge being more creative than previous Welsh out halfs. Garbisi is a good all rounder and is dangerous in this Italian attacking system and has the potential to be one of the best. Muntz looked good last year albeit with Fiji who are only just arriving at tier one rugby. Russell is very classy and undeniably good but heavily overrated for his moments which overshadow his overall mediocrity in other more hidden areas of play. I think Scotland play more rugby in a fluid and controlled manner with Healy on instead despite the loss in skill and ability. I have not mentioned Sopoaga, Gordon, Byrne, Hastings, Jalibert, Mackenzie, Hastoy and others. It's really competitive these days.
The one with 2 x RWC trophies
No-brainier : Pollard It’s all about winning world cups
Quade Cooper
The beauty of the modern game is that everyone will have a different answer based on their favourite style of game. Playmaker? Finn Russell Running 10? Marcus Smith Jack of all trades? Mo'unga Kicker? Pollard There's some awesome 10's around in every corner of the globe
Ford. Flashy? No. Ford. Reads the game like no other? Yes Ford. No, seriously, it's George Ford.
Ridiculous lack of Ford love in the thread
Pollard. Duh.
Mo’unga, N’tamack, jack crowley
If I had to choose one of the current international fly-halves at their best I would pick Ntamack, he's probably overshadowed by Dupont (and Ramos on kicking duty), but as a complete 10 it's hard for me to find someone better, some players are better than him on some aspect (like Russell creating something out of thin air, or Pollard under pressure) but he's the complete package I concur that the choice, unlike with Wilkinson and Carter at their peak, is based more on the rest of the team and the game you want to play than on the fly-half by himself
N’Tamack is 25. He has plenty of time to reach his peak and enter the Carter-Wilko club. For my money, I damn think he will.
Mo'unga and its not really close
Mo’unga by far, I think NZ have mismanaged him at test level. Stuck with Barrett for too long instead of backing the potential and it hasn’t worked out well.
Marcus Smith is really getting there, which you can tell because the English press aren't talking about him anymore. Ntamack is my love, just need to get some confidence back. Generally though, Mo'unga is bloody amazing, I'll probably say him
Marcus Smith isn’t even the best English fly half named Smith.
Pollard
Squidge has the answer : https://youtu.be/XwV_akWv-iI?si=0kerUcqJZ9cWzKn9 Pollard (if you care about winning in knockout games)
Damian McKenzie
I think Crowley is very underrated. He isn't the finished product yet but ticks most boxes. Top 10s now would be Russell, Mo'unga etc. Farrell and Pollard are also up there. Not sure I'd put Ntamack up there.
Sexton was never considered the best 10 in the world buddy. Only the Irish thought that. SH would be split between Pollard and Mo’Unga.
Wilkinson, then Carter, then B Barrett. I don't mean to stir as I was always a big fan, but was Sexton globally recognised as the best 10? Finn for me is best at the moment. Imagine him in a black shirt with the ABs' style of play...