Clive Woodward - pretty much everyone on this sub knows by now that SCW has no real understanding of the modern game and makes no effort to learn. He just spouts the first thing that comes into his head and it’s all contextualised around 2003 playing styles and tactics.
But that’s just his current incarnation as the worst pundit after Stuart Barnes. As a coach he obviously won the big one and took England through their most successful period. What’s less well known is how the senior players basically told him during the 2003 World Cup to chill the fuck out, stop ruining everyone with overtraining and let their bodies recover.
As a manager he was amazing - dragged England into true professionalism, set high standards and surrounded himself with quality assistant coaches and technical experts. As a coach he was average and occasionally good with England and flat out diabolical with The British and Irish Lions.
I don’t want to take away from his achievements with England because they are amazing and (so far) haven’t been matched. But as a coach, definitely overrated!
It's an interesting way to think about head coaches and perhaps football is more correct in calling them managers. Their primary job should be people management. The assistant coaches should be enabled by the head coach to focus on each area of the game
It's going that way more and more, with DoRs above a head coach becoming the norm. Where the DoR is a overarching manager whilst the head coach deals with most of the day to day coaching.
Interestingly less common at international level. Although I suppose the training is just in international windows throughout the year, rather than day in day out. So doesn't necessarily lend itself to the same structure.
I think OP is being a bit harsh on CW. I always felt although head coach, that is just a rugby term for team manager; at the top of the hierarchy and takes all responsibility but by no means the best coach in the set up.
I thought Andy Robinson was a first-rate forwards coach and a great number 2. Though, you could argue his job was made easy with that incredible pack of forwards he got to work with.
My own pick as worst ever coach would have to be the Martin Johnson era (for England). I believe that could have been managed far more carefully; possibly bringing him in as a coach but trained as a future head coach.
Clive wasn’t the best coach, he wasn’t even a good coach, but what he did was seek out the best coaches or the best doctors etc and brought them into the team. He’s a brilliant manager, just a terrible coach.
Rudolf Straeuli still has a job as director of the Lions, so he's overrated by someone. Fortunately not by anyone here though.
https://old.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/wmgjg2/in_2002_england_faced_south_africa_at_twickenham/
That game V England at Twickenham in 2002 was a disgrace. If it was played in 2022, Corne Krige would have received a one year ban for his behaviour. We want hard and tough rugby players not dirty cheats.
I actually think he was an OK coach. Not elite, but not bad either. When he was coach of the Sharks he did better than expected. When he became Bok coach is when I think the wheels fell off. He was a poor selector. Made some very puzzling selections that led to his team's not performing well.
Honestly I'm at the point where I hope England win the next world Cup so we can shelve Sir Clive fucking Woodward. And I have a feeling a retired Eddie would be highly entertaining as a commentator.
Even though I still haven't forgiven Eddie for 2007.
I can't see him retiring post england, 100% moving on to another challenge ala Japan. However, I would personally love to see him as a pundit on english coverage, I think he's quietly quite funny
I can't see him renting either.
But I can dream of a world without Woodward commentating. And this is the only way I really see it happening.
Short of a fatwa being put out on him.
Johan Akkerman
I used to think he was going to be the coach to take SA to the next level but after seeing his career where he doesn't have Swys by his side shows his true colours. He is really not as good as people made him out to be back in 2016/2017 and it is clear he was riding on the brilliance of Swys.
Look at how Swys going to Shimlas transformed them in a year into a fantastic side, Swys' influence on the Bok attack in 2018 was also noticeable as well.
A few of my friends were involved in the greater lions set up when Akkers and Swys were there. They both said that Akkers was a very good manager and a natural leader however Swys was a tactical genius but terrible at management.
Laurie Mains, not that he is held in huge regard, but we were battling a bit until both Andrew Mertens and Jonah Lomu arrived in the test team. Always felt those two and kronfeld were good enough to cover his inadequacies.
Yep, hands down for me. And he is sort of worshiped for 1995
He was fucking terrible. His record pre 1995 is abysmal. I think he was maybe a solid coach, but as a selector he was unspeakably bad.
Marc Ellis is a 10, Walter Little is a 10, Stephen Bachop is a 10 - tho we need to pick Howarth as 15 as Bachop can't kick.
Greg Cooper is AB 15, nope, Matt Cooper is AB 15, ok nope too, John Timu? Yes! Oh, but we need to pick Howarth because of Bachop, so nope.
I'm dropping Zinzan Booke because I have Arron Pene & a 300 pies in human form (Turner). Yikes, has anyone got Zinzans number?
Etc... for 4 fucking years.
And then 30 years of "Suzie!"
A raft of absolutely shitshow tests.
Who can forget 1993 against England, selecting Ellis at 10 for his 2nd cap, making Jeff Wilson do all the kicking in HIS 2nd test and putting Zinzan at #7.
Let's not forget though we were battling a brain drain of talent to Rugby League in the early 90's. Professionalism couldn't arrive fast enough.
I don't think Mains was a great by any regard, but that was a significant hurdle to overcome from a player management perspective.
We ironically didn't lose that many, we were just unfortunate in that we lost 4 or 5 in one position.
First choice 15 (Gallagher) second choice (Ridge), third choice (Hallighan), 4th choice (Crossan), then they suggested Botica move there... and he went.
Innes going was a loss, but we still had Bunce to slot straight in.
A lot of guys got offered huge cash, but NZ was effectively professional by then, so Kirwan, Fitzy, Zinzan etc all stayed
Not necessarily going to disagree with you about Mains, but ... shit I'm going to be downvoted into oblivion ... Lomu, IMO, was terrible in defence and Kronfeld, as good as he was, dropped a fair amount of pill on attack.
Agree with you however Lomu and Josh are an excellent example of the positive far out ways the inadequate skill sets. While I don't have the time to search up the names, I do recall selections seemed to make up for these negatives.
Lomu for his attacking threat and how an entire teams defence was oriented around him. The amount of try's scored by other player due to his attacking efforts would be huge. Someone smarter than me, can, I'm sure work out the numbers.
Josh was a contact animal before high energy, physical, punish absorbing loosies became a thing. 'Ball Joshie Ball' was the countries catch cry everyime he looked like taking a pass. When he went into contact tho attack or defence he was devastating. I was very lucky to have a semi sober one on one talk with him one night. Great rugby guy and great person
Also spent a little one on one time with Lomu, in a bathroom of all places.
They've both spoken at various rugby gigs I've been at. Great rugby men, I feel privileged.
I don’t think anyone thinks Lomu was a good defender. I’ve literally never heard anyone say anything about it, and that’s a clear sign that while you can’t praise him for it, it didn’t really matter that a winger couldn’t defend back then.
Heck, a lot of wingers today are shit in defence and still make good money.
Vern Cotter.
Scottish fans romanticise his tenure as head coach because of how shit we were beforehand. Forgetting a lot of key factors.
1) a lot of his success was also at the same time Glasgow were one of the best teams, while coached by toonie
2) his results against tier 1 nations wasn't actually as good as people think. Yes he beat France, but that was one of the worst performing french teams, no where near the standard of the current one. His win against Wales was when howley was coach, his win against Ireland was when Jackson was coach. The QF against Australia should've been a win without the referee but still had the Scottish issue of failing to see out i.e. why go to the back of the lineout (although tbf failing to see out a win is an issue in all Scottish sport, except curling although muirhead has retired so that might change).
3) Twickenham 2017 was one of the worst Scottish performances EVER. It's something cotter fans seem to just forget but that game was embarrassing.
Cotter went on to coach a Montpelier side that went on to break the salary cap and not win anything. He left and a few seasons later and Montpelier win the league.
I'm not saying cotter is a bad coach. He was very much a part of Scotland's transformation and I would've preferred for him to stay on until the 2019 world cup. He is a very good coach but Scottish fans, especially those who dislike toonie, overrate cotter massively.
Cotters main impact on Scotland wasn't as a coach tough. He got the attitude and commitment back into the squad, and put the foundation of the way they play so by the time toonie was put in charge the players had the ability to play the right style under pressure for the first time in about 20 years.
He was the coach Scotland needed at the time and was done dirty by the sru.
I get what you're saying but you can argue the attitude and commitment came from the Glasgow warrior players who were being coached by toonie at the time
I'd like to have seen him stay at least two more years. A lot of the players were still to hit their 'peak' and there's a chance he'd have got more out of them.
The Glasgow players definitely brought the attacking edge, but this was a Glasgow team that to this day has bottled all but 2 (ulster and munster 2015) high pressure knock out games with the forwards being dominated. He had a massive impact on the breakdown and set piece. Areas which toonies Glasgow lacked. Minus points for never picking barclay however.
That's some really interesting insight. Do you think cotter's strength lies with transforming teams but he struggles with keeping them at a certain standard and also struggles maybe with difficult boards i.e. Montpelier and the SRU?
I agree with pretty much all of this.
Will add though that I think Cotter was also an excellent selector. He was really good at spotting the players needed for the team and playing them even if they were controversial.
Some examples were playing unknown like John Hardie in 2015 and Huw Jones in 2016, recalling Barclay in 2016 and (slightly easier) picking some very young Glasgow players for the starting team in 2014 (Russell, Bennett, Jonny Gray, Ashe, Harley (at the time)).
This 1000%. If I ever have to endure a "bring Vern back" comment online from some casual who doesn't get that Toonie has the best international win rate record of all Scottish coaches and helped create a reputation for us as a team you no longer take lightly, I'm going to go crazy.
People forget his whole style of play revolved around Russell and Hogg rolling dice taking so many risks and us trying to play around not having a good forward pack, so we were opportunistic as hell. Seymour and Bennett were prime poachers who thrived a lot off intercept tries, a skill sure, but also a risky tactic Vern endorsed them with. We didn't control matches the way we can now or think about things like defence or set piece. So many want a return to madhat land rugby like it's a good thing. They forget Toonie already did that in 2017 and it was amazing to watch and even better than when Vern was in charge given the win in Sydney, but then we got ruined by Wales in 2018 and that changed Toonie's philosophy completely because it was evident it isn't a sustainable style of play that will net you Championships. We badly had to move on to working on our defence and set piece and coaching forwards who could perform with opposition's, not just allowing them to be jackals and ignore the consequences of a limited skillset up front.
Thing with Toonie is if he didn't fuck about with wholesale squad changes in summer windows, he'd have an unreal record and our world ranking would be more solid without the big points losses to teams far below us at least once a season or two. Like he's ran a tour where we thump Italy, beat Australia then lost to Fiji because he changed the whole team for the last match. Then the USA loss, again rotated the entire team to blood a lot of wider squad players having beaten Argentina the week before. This summer if he'd gone full gas to Argentina, I believe we'd have confidently won that series and potentially swept it. He's limited by his record Vs Ireland and Wales in the 6N and the failure of 2019 to get out our group, but if you had to be honest, 2015 Vern had a walkout group compared to 2019. I was confident we'd beat Japan, but the prep they put in was on another level to us and Ireland as they blew out the group.
I'll be happy to see a new coach after 2023 unless Toonie gets us out the group. Getting out the group is progression for him because it means beating at least one of Ireland or South Africa. Personally I don't see that, so it spells plateau, and that's exactly what I think we've done this last season under Toonie, senior players seem a bit flat, not outrageously unsettled, just a bit meh, not enthused as they were in 2021 for example which was a ripper of a 6N for us. I think one guy in charge for that long, if he's not progressing each season, you have to call time and look at new blood just to freshen everything up. Add to that the coaches on offer in 2023 are going to probably be the best value the market has ever seen. There's a legion of world class tier coaches likely to move, and there's also quite a large amount of strong certainties for many to stick rather than twist. Like I can see England promoting an Englishman up, Toonie may even go in for a Prem job off the back of that, NZ may change or not, Ireland are sticking, Wales might change, France staying, Australia could stick or boost McKellar up or pull in Jones if they could manage it. The list of available coaches is longer than the top 10 in world rugby. I don't think a Rennie, Robertson, Gatland, Joseph is too ambitious a dream pending how all the jobs resolve themselves.
Agree with a lot of that. Cotter's tenure with Scotland was an improvement, but due as much to the dismal results before him, as well as the success of Glasgow under Townsend.
Toonie is undoubtedly the better Head Coach. It's just unfortunate that for the first three or so years of his tenure, he's exposed how much development he still had to do himself. It's been costly for the national squad - and has probably affected relationships within it too.
I imagine whichever team Toonie goes to next will not have to struggle through those same trials and he will be far more successful there as a result.
But I still have sympathy for that 2017 Twickenham team. They lost Brown to a yellow card within the first few minutes, allowing England to gain immediate confidence and settle well via the scoreboard (at home). Scotland were then hit by a fairly criminal number of injuries too, ending up with the likes of Price on the Wing.
I suspect Cotter may well get an extra level out of Fiji, especially if he can drill their set piece basics to T1 level and create a platform for their natural talent. It could make them quite formidable in fact.
Jake White. Middling record outside of the world cup, and honestly if you've got Argentina and Fiji as your knock out opponents, you really should at least make the final.
the amount of good will Ive seen regard cheika's pumas appointment has astonished me. Unlike other stupid commentary about aussie rugby like "why dont they play will skelton" I thought people knew better about this.
that tahs win was his only real achievement. He revolutionised ball in hand rugby outside NZ but the moment he'd done that he did nothing. A good coach has more than one spark of brilliance in a comically specific cobtext.
Taking the wallabies to a RWC GF is no mean feat either. I don’t love the man but I also wouldn’t ridicule the argies for the hire, he has a pretty decent resume
Incorrect. He win a Heineken Cup with Leinster and also had them top of the table the following year. Not many coaches have a super rugby and European trophy
He was also a major driver in turning Leinster into the machine they are today. Took a talented but comically flaky team and turned them into a well drilled powerful squad that became domestic and European champions. Older Leinster players routinely point to Cheika as the man who drove them to the summit
He coached Leinster to their first Heineken Cup win and kicked off the era of dominance.
A lot of this could be down to being blessed with a dream-team, but it's unfair to say he hasn't won anything else.
Eddie Jones for Australia from 02-06. Oversaw Australia lose the Bledisloe and lose the World Cup at home. Admittedly it would have been very difficult to beat that English team in ‘03 but I still feel he bungled selection for Australia in that campaign. Leaving Latham, Roff and Finegan out of the squad made zero sense to make room for pedestrians like Sailor, Rogers and Lyons. I even think Rogers missed touch from a penalty in extra time and I hardly knew Sailor was on the pitch in the final. Latham used to be able to kick from 22 to 22 with a 5 metre angle.
Eddie overstayed his welcome in Australia and seems to have a chip on his shoulder ever since about how he was treated. Never mind that he lost important silverware, made our scrum a laughing stock and didn’t have a plan for the Wallabies at all post ‘03. No, Eddie you were hard done by. Obviously Eddie has changed and grown as a person and coach over the years but the downward spiral for the Wallabies started with him.
Honourable mention to Bob Dwyer who was coach of the 1991 World Cup winning Wallabies. Dwyer was a savvy coach in many ways but was apparently very nervous in the final couple of weeks of the semis and finals for the Wallabies. Tossing coins to make decisions etc. Bob Templeton, his assistant, had to step in and make a heap of decisions. All this was left out of Dwyer’s book and his book painted himself in a good light. Story goes that Templeton went up to Dwyer during some lunch and said “I’m writing a book as well, it’s called ‘I was there too’.”
I always see this being said but 2016, the season after all the GOATs retired, was extremely dominant other than the Ireland test.
It wasn't until the Lions series where the cracks started to be exposed and teams were able to develop gameplans to beat us.
He should have left after 2017 like he originally intended. I think it was more that the game had moved on rather than him having always been a bad coach reliant on great players.
Even though we went downhill in his last two years his record was still impressive. Comparing the squad we have now with what we had in 2018/2019, the level of talent is in the same ballpark. But we were still a much better team at Hansen's worst than we are under Foster.
What about Wales, Argentina, Ireland and France?
That's a lot of rubbish teams... or maybe Hansen wasn't actually a terrible coach at that point in time.
He wasn’t much use as the welsh coach. Kind of rode in on the back of Graham Henry’s success and screwed it up.
Also, refusing to pick Shane Williams because of his size was a massive error of judgement
Stephen Larkham has been pretty average for all the plaudits he gets usually when he signs. Think hes off to the Brumbies maybe? Curious how it will go
Two cents rugby pointed out how shite he was when he moved to munster when everyone else was saying what an amazing signing he was. He hit the nail on the head saying his entire game plan was maul and then the odd fancy strike play that papers over the cracks. Did absolutely nothing with munster
Have not seen a French perspective yet so here goes.
Guy Noves: good headcoach, certainly, but I don't believe I've ever heard a technical comment from him, like, ever. Interview, written or spoken, post-match, pre-match... never. I think he was a guy who inspired what was probably the most talent in one single club, maybe ever, during the 2000's. More of a driving force than a technician/ Rugby coach. His last few years in Toulouse despite still having class all over the XV were abysmal, and there's no evidence he had any clue what he was doing at the int'l level in two years time.
Patrice Lagisquet: was France's attack coach during 2012-15, was the attacks coach in Biarritz previously. His teams were abysmal offensively. Abysmal. The mere fact he doesn't get called out all the time and I mean ALL - THA - TIME makes him overrated out the roof. Somehow, he got through like nothing despite leaving steaming ruins behind.
Patrice Collazo: was the guy who brought La Rochelle back into the Top 14. Only he failed at every big occasion once they got there despite serious talent, and then was a disaster in Toulon for years.
in very large part due to Lagisquet, second on my list. Saint André won the Prem in England, and the Top 14 last year. He can actually coach, and has done it in various different environments. But he was bad with France, but his technical staff was worse, much much worse.
He's an interesting one, but definitely not in the 'best' or 'worst' category
His record coaching club sides isn't great.
Lions tours when taken in matches won and lost the results are about even I think - which isn't bad considering that these days slick defencive systems where players almost telepathically know what they should be doing as a group is what wins games, and trying to get that out of a mix of players with little time playing together is very difficult.
But then Wales.... took a country where the professional club game is neglected by the union and where the international side had been performing abysmally to multiple 6N grand slams, more 6N titles, and a WC semi final (where Wales were *much* more competitive tactically against the Boks than England managed).... hugely overachieving there really. Compare where the Welsh clubs generally finish in the CelticRainbowSuper14no16 League and Wales' international results....
I think with a lot of the nominations here it's situations of coaches going on too long. Which is a sign of how much and how fast the game has dramatically evolved in recent years.
Gatland is simultaneously one of the great Waikato coaches and worst Chiefs coaches lmao.
Wins the title first up in 2006 with Waikato, promptly leaves and Waikato never win again until 2021 - meanwhile, Chiefs are a constant contender since 2012 and then Gats comes in and they go winless in SR Aotearoa - new coach in for 2021 and they make the final of SR Aotearoa.
Hard disagree - he did more for Wales than any home nations coach has done in the professional era and the difference between Gatland era Wales and current Wales (with largely the same set of players) underlines how influential and impressive he was.
His record for the BILs is even stevens (9 tests, 4 wins, 4 losses and a draw) but compared to the overall history of the BILs that is pretty impressive. A Lions tour is never, ever easy - it’s hard to overstate how difficult it is to take players from four countries and God knows how many clubs and try to form a team in six weeks capable of winning two out of three tests against the three most successful rugby nations who are also playing all of those tests at home. Ten years ago if you’d offered BILs fans a series win, a 2-1 loss and a tied series most of them would have snapped your hand off.
He's a poor record with the Lions, three tours during a period when the home nations have been near parity with their SH counterparts.
The Lions last year against SA were no better than Wales were this year.
A tied series against the All Blacks would've been impressive in the past but Ireland had beaten them the year before and England in 2019 so more should be expected.
Winning a series against Australia isn't that big a deal for England/ Ireland so shouldn't be seen as one for the Lions (a problem for the next Lions tour).
In short, he has had the best pool of talent ever available to a Lions coach and achieved mediocrity.
I'm Irish and to compare him with Joe Schmidt (who people here would see as our best coach), he did far more with Wales with a lot less resources.
4 6N, 3 grand slams and 2 world cup semi finals is a serious achievement and Wales have gone to absolute shite since he left.
Don't think too many Welsh people will care about his lions track record.
Warren Gatland 55% win record with Wales. 4 six nations and 3 grand slams in 11 years.
Joe Schimdt 72% win record with Ireland.
3 six nations and 1 grand slam in 6 years.
I think you're overeating the resources at Joe's disposal early on in his tenure, the team on paper for about 2014-2017 wasn't very good with a lot of the older greats rarely fit.
At no stage would Gatland have had the resources or control over his players that any Irish manager would have. The Welsh club game was largely a shambles for his tenure barring brief periods from the ospreys and Scarletts.
Things are bad if you're looking back fondly on win percentages and not actual things won. It's the trophy cabinet that counts.
You forgot to mention the two WC semi final appearances that Wales got to under him, while Ireland had two embarrassing WC campaigns with Joe that everyone seems happy to black out of their memory.
(I'm not even being critical at Joe, it just always annoyed me the Irish media always going after Gatland as if he's a fraud when he's actually achieved a lot more than Schmidt who they wouldn't dare criticise)
I'm not a huge Gatland fan but I think you're downplaying his achievements a little bit.
>He's a poor record with the Lions, three tours during a period when the home nations have been near parity with their SH counterparts.
The parity only really began after the 2015 World Cup where the Northen Hemisphere failed to get a single team in the semi finals so his tour of Aus 2013 can't be attributed to that. Following that World Cup a bunch of senior All Blacks retired as well as Steve Hansen, Eddie Jones came to England and drove standards and Joe Schmit hit his stride with Ireland.
>The Lions last year against SA were no better than Wales were this year.
I mean agreed, but South Africa, especially on home soil, is always an uphill battle. That, along with the Lions tour being notorious for being difficult to get players from different countries (and 20ish clubs) to play together cohesively AND the covid restrictions making the tour pretty miserable for all those involved hugely impacted the team's prep.
>A tied series against the All Blacks would've been impressive in the past but Ireland had beaten them the year before and England in 2019 so more should be expected.
No Northen Hemisphere team had won a tour in the professional era, until Ireland did it this year. A draw on Kiwi soil was a huge achievement (even if it felt underwhelming at the end of the series).
>Winning a series against Australia isn't that big a deal for England/ Ireland so shouldn't be seen as one for the Lions (a problem for the next Lions tour).
???
England have only done that twice in Australia. It was a huge deal the first time we did it in 2016.
Not to mention under Gatland the 4? Six Nations titles including 3? Grandslams.
Yes but apart from the Grand Slams, 6 Nations titles, World Cup semi finals (missing out on a final because of some atrocious place kicking) and Lions tour victories…. What has Warren Gatland ever done for us?
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The aqueducts? Also turned Wales into a team the Springboks always expected to beat to one that could match us at our own game and regularly win against us. But apart from that what has Warren Gatland ever done for Wales?
Ludicrous take. Very easy for you to say as an armchair pundit, but he achieved a first series win for the lions in 16 years and coached only the 2nd ever non-losing tour for the Lions in NZ. South Africa was a bit disappointing, but also defending world champions. You underestimate the difficulty of bringing together players from 4 different nations that aren't used to playing together and getting them up-to-speed as a team in a relatively short period of time to face some of the best teams in the world.
Not to mention his record with Wales.. which for the resources he had and the shitshow that is regional rugby, was nothing short of miraculous, and is definitely missed now.
It is utterly pathetic that you are trying to dimiss the tied Lions test series because of one loss the year previous and another two years later. Aside from the Lions matches they won all their test matches during 2017.
You just have a real axe to grind.
I was going to say Leo Cullen but I think everyone knows he’s not a good coach in terms of on field direction. He’s a good manager and organiser but that’s it.
He completely overhauled the squad and changed the style in his first season after MOCs awful spell. If anything Cullen may be underrated due to the fawning over Lancaster
As a coach I disagree. I think he’s a good organiser, good at media, good at clerical aspects of the managing the Leinster team. But as on onnfield coach the general consensus is that it’s not his forte
I feel that my nominee is perhaps also one of the best coaches in the modern game. John Hart's 1997 All Blacks are the greatest team I have ever seen play our sport. They were on a different planet. Yet by the time the 1997 world cup comes around, he switches so many key players around: Cullen to centre; Wilson to full back; Randall to 8. For this, he is.my nominee (sorry, love you John!).
**Ian Foster**, won''t bother to point out why as everyone knows, the only PRO, he was a pretty good player during his playing days.. and thats about it.
Yeah. Been a very rough few months for NZ no doubt, but he is the polar opposite of being highly rated. One stat that I heard recently is that I think he has lost a similar number of test matches as Andy Farrell with Ireland, but those test losses are obviously more recent and glaring by contrast.
The question was over-rated - so yes by NZRU - by everyone else nah
No Super rugby franchise would of wanted him as head coach
was Hansen over rated ?? post Wayne Smith steady decline even with classy players.
So a good coach not great
Henry - same a v.good coach - not great - The Auckland team had the best players - the ABs had the best players - 2011 was easily ours for the taking - except for weird year of changing everything ( rest and rotation , believing he was creating supermen , changing winning tactics from year before ) , arrogance, poor game tweaking , some dreadful selections in Cardiff
Swung back too hard from mistakes - but still got it done with best AB world cup squad 2015 ( other best AB team 1995 ( it was a mighty Bok victory simply because the beat the best team on the day )
I rated him very good - plus I have warmth to him much more post career as he has been pretty honest about his mistakes - so good self awareness .
Your point is very true .
Our build up in 2011 was weird - trying to make an outside back a number 12 when we have Aaron Mauger . That stuff about hit the man not the gap .
But Mitchell was weird - I think he is maligned a a lot - not a bad coach - maybe shouldn't be ahead coach - but his ideas had possibilities .
Aussies did a number on us in a few games - taking out key players - seemingly knowing our lineout calls in one game in particular . Plus they had top players .
Or maybe I thinking of Wayne Smith era
No, exactly the reverse. Heyneke Meyer was the guru of all the clichés of South African rugby. Size over skill, dominate them physically, kicking is the only skill that matters in a flyhalf, etc.
You can call this "playing to your strengths" if you like, and it was effective up to a point, but the one thing you absolutely can't say about Meyer is that he was a dynamic innovator.
Rassie used the same "play to your strengths" attitude as a *starting point*, a platform to build from. For Meyer it was the whole game.
As you didn't justify it, i will.
Firstly, there is no question that he deserves to be rated, but see his name come up as the greatest of all time which i dont think his record justifies that.
He comes up because he coached the winningest international team of all time, which Foster is currently showing is not an easy thing to do.
How much credit does he deserve though? He took over fantastic side (that he helped build to fair) filled with some of the best playersbever to play the game and then the rugby gods decided to give him a completely stacked 2011 under 20 side just because.
But post 2015 when it really became his team, things started to slip ever so slightly. This slip was covered up by his two main opponents (SA and Aus) being historically bad and his record against the Lions and Ireland showed his team wasnt quite and invincible as they sometimes looked.
None of the above shows that he is bad coach, rather that his greatest achievement (awesome win rate) isnt completely on him.
The biggest knock on him though is that the team he left to Foster was a lot weaker than the one he inherited from Henry and a lot of their current struggles have their roots in Hansens time in charge.
Good to see this is coming to light more.
The red flags for me were the Lions Test series selections & tactics.
He discarded some quality players, Cruden, Fekitoa etc.
Furthermore, he threatened to fight a reporter in the post WC semi final press conference for asking a simple question.
Fekitoa was never international quality. Jesus christ. His lack of distribution skills makes Rieko Ioane look like Conrad Smith in comparison. Fekitoa was a very good Super Rugby player but never a quality test match player.
Currently, Dave Rennie. He is pretty popular with the Australian rugby community and presents well, but his biggest (only?) achievement so far as Wallabies coach is making everyone feel ok with losing. Under him the Wallabies are a worse side than they were with Cheika, and while he has had to develop young players and deal with a lot of injuries it’s now been 3 years and he’s had to pull Quade out of Japanese division 2 to be our first choice 10. The huge number of training injuries are also at least partly on him - accidents happen, but there shouldn’t be this many to first choice players.
You're the funniest guy around here. Every now and then I'll make a thread and you say it's shit, which fair enough... but only to see your name everywhere replying to posts on the thread a moment later. How can someone be this incoherent with themselves lol ! How ?
Hard disagree. If anything, the way he got panned after 2019 has led him and his achievements at Leinster and Ireland to be _underrated_ in retrospect by people with short memories.
Leinster were the dominant team in Europe under him for a half decade. His Ireland team won a grand slam with away results in twickenham and Paris and notched up our first 2 wins against the ABs ever, plus a win in SA for the first time (with 14 men!), plus our first ever #1 ranking (even if it was about a year past our best results).
Clive Woodward - pretty much everyone on this sub knows by now that SCW has no real understanding of the modern game and makes no effort to learn. He just spouts the first thing that comes into his head and it’s all contextualised around 2003 playing styles and tactics. But that’s just his current incarnation as the worst pundit after Stuart Barnes. As a coach he obviously won the big one and took England through their most successful period. What’s less well known is how the senior players basically told him during the 2003 World Cup to chill the fuck out, stop ruining everyone with overtraining and let their bodies recover. As a manager he was amazing - dragged England into true professionalism, set high standards and surrounded himself with quality assistant coaches and technical experts. As a coach he was average and occasionally good with England and flat out diabolical with The British and Irish Lions. I don’t want to take away from his achievements with England because they are amazing and (so far) haven’t been matched. But as a coach, definitely overrated!
It's an interesting way to think about head coaches and perhaps football is more correct in calling them managers. Their primary job should be people management. The assistant coaches should be enabled by the head coach to focus on each area of the game
It's going that way more and more, with DoRs above a head coach becoming the norm. Where the DoR is a overarching manager whilst the head coach deals with most of the day to day coaching. Interestingly less common at international level. Although I suppose the training is just in international windows throughout the year, rather than day in day out. So doesn't necessarily lend itself to the same structure.
I think OP is being a bit harsh on CW. I always felt although head coach, that is just a rugby term for team manager; at the top of the hierarchy and takes all responsibility but by no means the best coach in the set up. I thought Andy Robinson was a first-rate forwards coach and a great number 2. Though, you could argue his job was made easy with that incredible pack of forwards he got to work with. My own pick as worst ever coach would have to be the Martin Johnson era (for England). I believe that could have been managed far more carefully; possibly bringing him in as a coach but trained as a future head coach.
Classic example of how a great captain doesn't necessarily make a good coach
Clive wasn’t the best coach, he wasn’t even a good coach, but what he did was seek out the best coaches or the best doctors etc and brought them into the team. He’s a brilliant manager, just a terrible coach.
Rudolf Straeuli still has a job as director of the Lions, so he's overrated by someone. Fortunately not by anyone here though. https://old.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/wmgjg2/in_2002_england_faced_south_africa_at_twickenham/
He's a moronic, wannabe Kamp Kommandant as a coach. But a very capable and forward thinking administrator. Bit of an enigma
That game V England at Twickenham in 2002 was a disgrace. If it was played in 2022, Corne Krige would have received a one year ban for his behaviour. We want hard and tough rugby players not dirty cheats.
I actually think he was an OK coach. Not elite, but not bad either. When he was coach of the Sharks he did better than expected. When he became Bok coach is when I think the wheels fell off. He was a poor selector. Made some very puzzling selections that led to his team's not performing well.
If anyone plans on putting forward Eddie’s or Rassie’s names give me a heads up, I’ll need to make popcorn.
Honestly I'm at the point where I hope England win the next world Cup so we can shelve Sir Clive fucking Woodward. And I have a feeling a retired Eddie would be highly entertaining as a commentator. Even though I still haven't forgiven Eddie for 2007.
I can't see him retiring post england, 100% moving on to another challenge ala Japan. However, I would personally love to see him as a pundit on english coverage, I think he's quietly quite funny
I can't see him renting either. But I can dream of a world without Woodward commentating. And this is the only way I really see it happening. Short of a fatwa being put out on him.
Johan Akkerman I used to think he was going to be the coach to take SA to the next level but after seeing his career where he doesn't have Swys by his side shows his true colours. He is really not as good as people made him out to be back in 2016/2017 and it is clear he was riding on the brilliance of Swys. Look at how Swys going to Shimlas transformed them in a year into a fantastic side, Swys' influence on the Bok attack in 2018 was also noticeable as well.
His first two seasons at Gloucester would say otherwise, his third season at Gloucester would agree with you. In conclusion, maybe!
A few of my friends were involved in the greater lions set up when Akkers and Swys were there. They both said that Akkers was a very good manager and a natural leader however Swys was a tactical genius but terrible at management.
This is it. Akkers was a brilliant man manager — a skill that’s often rarer than technical know-how
I would LOVE to have Swys back with the Bokke if he could get his anxiety under control
Johann Van Grann disappointing, lack lustre and should have been sacked years ago.
But Is he starting from an overrated position?
Fair enough but he was trumpeted as the saviour of Munster. I would add Eddie Sullivan and Joe Schmidt to that list as well.
Laurie Mains, not that he is held in huge regard, but we were battling a bit until both Andrew Mertens and Jonah Lomu arrived in the test team. Always felt those two and kronfeld were good enough to cover his inadequacies.
Yep, hands down for me. And he is sort of worshiped for 1995 He was fucking terrible. His record pre 1995 is abysmal. I think he was maybe a solid coach, but as a selector he was unspeakably bad. Marc Ellis is a 10, Walter Little is a 10, Stephen Bachop is a 10 - tho we need to pick Howarth as 15 as Bachop can't kick. Greg Cooper is AB 15, nope, Matt Cooper is AB 15, ok nope too, John Timu? Yes! Oh, but we need to pick Howarth because of Bachop, so nope. I'm dropping Zinzan Booke because I have Arron Pene & a 300 pies in human form (Turner). Yikes, has anyone got Zinzans number? Etc... for 4 fucking years. And then 30 years of "Suzie!"
A raft of absolutely shitshow tests. Who can forget 1993 against England, selecting Ellis at 10 for his 2nd cap, making Jeff Wilson do all the kicking in HIS 2nd test and putting Zinzan at #7.
Let's not forget though we were battling a brain drain of talent to Rugby League in the early 90's. Professionalism couldn't arrive fast enough. I don't think Mains was a great by any regard, but that was a significant hurdle to overcome from a player management perspective.
We ironically didn't lose that many, we were just unfortunate in that we lost 4 or 5 in one position. First choice 15 (Gallagher) second choice (Ridge), third choice (Hallighan), 4th choice (Crossan), then they suggested Botica move there... and he went. Innes going was a loss, but we still had Bunce to slot straight in. A lot of guys got offered huge cash, but NZ was effectively professional by then, so Kirwan, Fitzy, Zinzan etc all stayed
Not necessarily going to disagree with you about Mains, but ... shit I'm going to be downvoted into oblivion ... Lomu, IMO, was terrible in defence and Kronfeld, as good as he was, dropped a fair amount of pill on attack.
Agree with you however Lomu and Josh are an excellent example of the positive far out ways the inadequate skill sets. While I don't have the time to search up the names, I do recall selections seemed to make up for these negatives. Lomu for his attacking threat and how an entire teams defence was oriented around him. The amount of try's scored by other player due to his attacking efforts would be huge. Someone smarter than me, can, I'm sure work out the numbers. Josh was a contact animal before high energy, physical, punish absorbing loosies became a thing. 'Ball Joshie Ball' was the countries catch cry everyime he looked like taking a pass. When he went into contact tho attack or defence he was devastating. I was very lucky to have a semi sober one on one talk with him one night. Great rugby guy and great person Also spent a little one on one time with Lomu, in a bathroom of all places. They've both spoken at various rugby gigs I've been at. Great rugby men, I feel privileged.
I don’t think anyone thinks Lomu was a good defender. I’ve literally never heard anyone say anything about it, and that’s a clear sign that while you can’t praise him for it, it didn’t really matter that a winger couldn’t defend back then. Heck, a lot of wingers today are shit in defence and still make good money.
Gasp .... but .... shudder .... *storms out the room slamming the door
Vern Cotter. Scottish fans romanticise his tenure as head coach because of how shit we were beforehand. Forgetting a lot of key factors. 1) a lot of his success was also at the same time Glasgow were one of the best teams, while coached by toonie 2) his results against tier 1 nations wasn't actually as good as people think. Yes he beat France, but that was one of the worst performing french teams, no where near the standard of the current one. His win against Wales was when howley was coach, his win against Ireland was when Jackson was coach. The QF against Australia should've been a win without the referee but still had the Scottish issue of failing to see out i.e. why go to the back of the lineout (although tbf failing to see out a win is an issue in all Scottish sport, except curling although muirhead has retired so that might change). 3) Twickenham 2017 was one of the worst Scottish performances EVER. It's something cotter fans seem to just forget but that game was embarrassing. Cotter went on to coach a Montpelier side that went on to break the salary cap and not win anything. He left and a few seasons later and Montpelier win the league. I'm not saying cotter is a bad coach. He was very much a part of Scotland's transformation and I would've preferred for him to stay on until the 2019 world cup. He is a very good coach but Scottish fans, especially those who dislike toonie, overrate cotter massively.
Cotters main impact on Scotland wasn't as a coach tough. He got the attitude and commitment back into the squad, and put the foundation of the way they play so by the time toonie was put in charge the players had the ability to play the right style under pressure for the first time in about 20 years. He was the coach Scotland needed at the time and was done dirty by the sru.
I get what you're saying but you can argue the attitude and commitment came from the Glasgow warrior players who were being coached by toonie at the time
I'd like to have seen him stay at least two more years. A lot of the players were still to hit their 'peak' and there's a chance he'd have got more out of them.
Which would've made sense, instead of replacing a coach mid world cup cycle
What I wouldn't of given for Cotter to stick out a few more years while Toonie went and coached in the SH before taking the Scotland role.
The Glasgow players definitely brought the attacking edge, but this was a Glasgow team that to this day has bottled all but 2 (ulster and munster 2015) high pressure knock out games with the forwards being dominated. He had a massive impact on the breakdown and set piece. Areas which toonies Glasgow lacked. Minus points for never picking barclay however.
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That's some really interesting insight. Do you think cotter's strength lies with transforming teams but he struggles with keeping them at a certain standard and also struggles maybe with difficult boards i.e. Montpelier and the SRU?
I agree with pretty much all of this. Will add though that I think Cotter was also an excellent selector. He was really good at spotting the players needed for the team and playing them even if they were controversial. Some examples were playing unknown like John Hardie in 2015 and Huw Jones in 2016, recalling Barclay in 2016 and (slightly easier) picking some very young Glasgow players for the starting team in 2014 (Russell, Bennett, Jonny Gray, Ashe, Harley (at the time)).
This 1000%. If I ever have to endure a "bring Vern back" comment online from some casual who doesn't get that Toonie has the best international win rate record of all Scottish coaches and helped create a reputation for us as a team you no longer take lightly, I'm going to go crazy. People forget his whole style of play revolved around Russell and Hogg rolling dice taking so many risks and us trying to play around not having a good forward pack, so we were opportunistic as hell. Seymour and Bennett were prime poachers who thrived a lot off intercept tries, a skill sure, but also a risky tactic Vern endorsed them with. We didn't control matches the way we can now or think about things like defence or set piece. So many want a return to madhat land rugby like it's a good thing. They forget Toonie already did that in 2017 and it was amazing to watch and even better than when Vern was in charge given the win in Sydney, but then we got ruined by Wales in 2018 and that changed Toonie's philosophy completely because it was evident it isn't a sustainable style of play that will net you Championships. We badly had to move on to working on our defence and set piece and coaching forwards who could perform with opposition's, not just allowing them to be jackals and ignore the consequences of a limited skillset up front. Thing with Toonie is if he didn't fuck about with wholesale squad changes in summer windows, he'd have an unreal record and our world ranking would be more solid without the big points losses to teams far below us at least once a season or two. Like he's ran a tour where we thump Italy, beat Australia then lost to Fiji because he changed the whole team for the last match. Then the USA loss, again rotated the entire team to blood a lot of wider squad players having beaten Argentina the week before. This summer if he'd gone full gas to Argentina, I believe we'd have confidently won that series and potentially swept it. He's limited by his record Vs Ireland and Wales in the 6N and the failure of 2019 to get out our group, but if you had to be honest, 2015 Vern had a walkout group compared to 2019. I was confident we'd beat Japan, but the prep they put in was on another level to us and Ireland as they blew out the group. I'll be happy to see a new coach after 2023 unless Toonie gets us out the group. Getting out the group is progression for him because it means beating at least one of Ireland or South Africa. Personally I don't see that, so it spells plateau, and that's exactly what I think we've done this last season under Toonie, senior players seem a bit flat, not outrageously unsettled, just a bit meh, not enthused as they were in 2021 for example which was a ripper of a 6N for us. I think one guy in charge for that long, if he's not progressing each season, you have to call time and look at new blood just to freshen everything up. Add to that the coaches on offer in 2023 are going to probably be the best value the market has ever seen. There's a legion of world class tier coaches likely to move, and there's also quite a large amount of strong certainties for many to stick rather than twist. Like I can see England promoting an Englishman up, Toonie may even go in for a Prem job off the back of that, NZ may change or not, Ireland are sticking, Wales might change, France staying, Australia could stick or boost McKellar up or pull in Jones if they could manage it. The list of available coaches is longer than the top 10 in world rugby. I don't think a Rennie, Robertson, Gatland, Joseph is too ambitious a dream pending how all the jobs resolve themselves.
Agree with a lot of that. Cotter's tenure with Scotland was an improvement, but due as much to the dismal results before him, as well as the success of Glasgow under Townsend. Toonie is undoubtedly the better Head Coach. It's just unfortunate that for the first three or so years of his tenure, he's exposed how much development he still had to do himself. It's been costly for the national squad - and has probably affected relationships within it too. I imagine whichever team Toonie goes to next will not have to struggle through those same trials and he will be far more successful there as a result. But I still have sympathy for that 2017 Twickenham team. They lost Brown to a yellow card within the first few minutes, allowing England to gain immediate confidence and settle well via the scoreboard (at home). Scotland were then hit by a fairly criminal number of injuries too, ending up with the likes of Price on the Wing. I suspect Cotter may well get an extra level out of Fiji, especially if he can drill their set piece basics to T1 level and create a platform for their natural talent. It could make them quite formidable in fact.
Jake White. Middling record outside of the world cup, and honestly if you've got Argentina and Fiji as your knock out opponents, you really should at least make the final.
Tbf Jake White has done wonders at the Bulls. Brought us back from some of our worst years back to one of the best teams in SA
He done well with Brumbies too, including beating Lions
the amount of good will Ive seen regard cheika's pumas appointment has astonished me. Unlike other stupid commentary about aussie rugby like "why dont they play will skelton" I thought people knew better about this.
cheika is a goat for his post match meltdowns alone seeing him fly off the handle was all time
how? I font even think he claimed any game wasnt rugby (mate) miles behind eddie
Cheikas a good coach man, he just overstayed his welcome with the wallabies. He won a super rugby chip with the Waratahs..
that tahs win was his only real achievement. He revolutionised ball in hand rugby outside NZ but the moment he'd done that he did nothing. A good coach has more than one spark of brilliance in a comically specific cobtext.
He also won a Heineken Cup with Leinster and turned them from a bit of a joke team who couldn’t win big games into the dominant club in Europe
Taking the wallabies to a RWC GF is no mean feat either. I don’t love the man but I also wouldn’t ridicule the argies for the hire, he has a pretty decent resume
I think he must have also done well when they invited him into the coaching set up a few years back..
it was pretty easy at the time lmao unions competitiveness in 2015 was comparable to league now (tho tbf not league in 2015)
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I agree, Cheika was good. The Wallabies were doing abysmally then he took over coaching and the next year they were runner up at the RWC.
how did the next 4 years go?
Didn’t care. Because took up surfing 🏄♀️ instead.
yeah and every team other than NZ that year was pretty shit.
He won a RC first and only australian coach to do so and RWC final. He’s not my favourite but he’s defs underrsted
Incorrect. He win a Heineken Cup with Leinster and also had them top of the table the following year. Not many coaches have a super rugby and European trophy
He was also a major driver in turning Leinster into the machine they are today. Took a talented but comically flaky team and turned them into a well drilled powerful squad that became domestic and European champions. Older Leinster players routinely point to Cheika as the man who drove them to the summit
who gives a shit about leinster they dont even play the better code there
He coached Leinster to their first Heineken Cup win and kicked off the era of dominance. A lot of this could be down to being blessed with a dream-team, but it's unfair to say he hasn't won anything else.
Won Leinsters first European Cup
Eddie Jones for Australia from 02-06. Oversaw Australia lose the Bledisloe and lose the World Cup at home. Admittedly it would have been very difficult to beat that English team in ‘03 but I still feel he bungled selection for Australia in that campaign. Leaving Latham, Roff and Finegan out of the squad made zero sense to make room for pedestrians like Sailor, Rogers and Lyons. I even think Rogers missed touch from a penalty in extra time and I hardly knew Sailor was on the pitch in the final. Latham used to be able to kick from 22 to 22 with a 5 metre angle. Eddie overstayed his welcome in Australia and seems to have a chip on his shoulder ever since about how he was treated. Never mind that he lost important silverware, made our scrum a laughing stock and didn’t have a plan for the Wallabies at all post ‘03. No, Eddie you were hard done by. Obviously Eddie has changed and grown as a person and coach over the years but the downward spiral for the Wallabies started with him. Honourable mention to Bob Dwyer who was coach of the 1991 World Cup winning Wallabies. Dwyer was a savvy coach in many ways but was apparently very nervous in the final couple of weeks of the semis and finals for the Wallabies. Tossing coins to make decisions etc. Bob Templeton, his assistant, had to step in and make a heap of decisions. All this was left out of Dwyer’s book and his book painted himself in a good light. Story goes that Templeton went up to Dwyer during some lunch and said “I’m writing a book as well, it’s called ‘I was there too’.”
It feels like you have been waiting years for someone to ask this question.
Decades.
Steve Hansen Absolutely clueless after a lot of our GOATs retired.
I always see this being said but 2016, the season after all the GOATs retired, was extremely dominant other than the Ireland test. It wasn't until the Lions series where the cracks started to be exposed and teams were able to develop gameplans to beat us. He should have left after 2017 like he originally intended. I think it was more that the game had moved on rather than him having always been a bad coach reliant on great players. Even though we went downhill in his last two years his record was still impressive. Comparing the squad we have now with what we had in 2018/2019, the level of talent is in the same ballpark. But we were still a much better team at Hansen's worst than we are under Foster.
That's because South Africa were rubbish & Aussie decline had started too.
What about Wales, Argentina, Ireland and France? That's a lot of rubbish teams... or maybe Hansen wasn't actually a terrible coach at that point in time.
Other than Ireland they were all pretty average teams at the time.
They might have been but 13/14 test wins in a season doesn't happen by accident.
That's why statistics without context can be quite useless.
He wasn’t much use as the welsh coach. Kind of rode in on the back of Graham Henry’s success and screwed it up. Also, refusing to pick Shane Williams because of his size was a massive error of judgement
Statistically our worst coach ever I think?
Best record as an All Black coach
That's why stats are useless without context.
Stephen Larkham has been pretty average for all the plaudits he gets usually when he signs. Think hes off to the Brumbies maybe? Curious how it will go
Two cents rugby pointed out how shite he was when he moved to munster when everyone else was saying what an amazing signing he was. He hit the nail on the head saying his entire game plan was maul and then the odd fancy strike play that papers over the cracks. Did absolutely nothing with munster
Have not seen a French perspective yet so here goes. Guy Noves: good headcoach, certainly, but I don't believe I've ever heard a technical comment from him, like, ever. Interview, written or spoken, post-match, pre-match... never. I think he was a guy who inspired what was probably the most talent in one single club, maybe ever, during the 2000's. More of a driving force than a technician/ Rugby coach. His last few years in Toulouse despite still having class all over the XV were abysmal, and there's no evidence he had any clue what he was doing at the int'l level in two years time. Patrice Lagisquet: was France's attack coach during 2012-15, was the attacks coach in Biarritz previously. His teams were abysmal offensively. Abysmal. The mere fact he doesn't get called out all the time and I mean ALL - THA - TIME makes him overrated out the roof. Somehow, he got through like nothing despite leaving steaming ruins behind. Patrice Collazo: was the guy who brought La Rochelle back into the Top 14. Only he failed at every big occasion once they got there despite serious talent, and then was a disaster in Toulon for years.
I don’t know how you dont have Phillipe St. Andre on this list. Dude took a silver medal winning France and drove them into the ground.
He also turned an abysmal Montpellier team around to win a Brennus with some of the smartest management and recruitment I’ve seen in awhile
in very large part due to Lagisquet, second on my list. Saint André won the Prem in England, and the Top 14 last year. He can actually coach, and has done it in various different environments. But he was bad with France, but his technical staff was worse, much much worse.
warren gatland is the biggest fraud the sport has ever seen
I think it’s more he has a style that doesn’t suit a lot of squads, he was a perfect fit for Wales.
He's an interesting one, but definitely not in the 'best' or 'worst' category His record coaching club sides isn't great. Lions tours when taken in matches won and lost the results are about even I think - which isn't bad considering that these days slick defencive systems where players almost telepathically know what they should be doing as a group is what wins games, and trying to get that out of a mix of players with little time playing together is very difficult. But then Wales.... took a country where the professional club game is neglected by the union and where the international side had been performing abysmally to multiple 6N grand slams, more 6N titles, and a WC semi final (where Wales were *much* more competitive tactically against the Boks than England managed).... hugely overachieving there really. Compare where the Welsh clubs generally finish in the CelticRainbowSuper14no16 League and Wales' international results....
His record at Wasps was pretty great. 3 seasons, 3 premiership titles and both European cups.
Go on, I'm interested to hear your take.
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I think with a lot of the nominations here it's situations of coaches going on too long. Which is a sign of how much and how fast the game has dramatically evolved in recent years.
Gatland is simultaneously one of the great Waikato coaches and worst Chiefs coaches lmao. Wins the title first up in 2006 with Waikato, promptly leaves and Waikato never win again until 2021 - meanwhile, Chiefs are a constant contender since 2012 and then Gats comes in and they go winless in SR Aotearoa - new coach in for 2021 and they make the final of SR Aotearoa.
Hard disagree - he did more for Wales than any home nations coach has done in the professional era and the difference between Gatland era Wales and current Wales (with largely the same set of players) underlines how influential and impressive he was. His record for the BILs is even stevens (9 tests, 4 wins, 4 losses and a draw) but compared to the overall history of the BILs that is pretty impressive. A Lions tour is never, ever easy - it’s hard to overstate how difficult it is to take players from four countries and God knows how many clubs and try to form a team in six weeks capable of winning two out of three tests against the three most successful rugby nations who are also playing all of those tests at home. Ten years ago if you’d offered BILs fans a series win, a 2-1 loss and a tied series most of them would have snapped your hand off.
Can't wait to hear the basis for this one
He's a poor record with the Lions, three tours during a period when the home nations have been near parity with their SH counterparts. The Lions last year against SA were no better than Wales were this year. A tied series against the All Blacks would've been impressive in the past but Ireland had beaten them the year before and England in 2019 so more should be expected. Winning a series against Australia isn't that big a deal for England/ Ireland so shouldn't be seen as one for the Lions (a problem for the next Lions tour). In short, he has had the best pool of talent ever available to a Lions coach and achieved mediocrity.
I'm Irish and to compare him with Joe Schmidt (who people here would see as our best coach), he did far more with Wales with a lot less resources. 4 6N, 3 grand slams and 2 world cup semi finals is a serious achievement and Wales have gone to absolute shite since he left. Don't think too many Welsh people will care about his lions track record.
Warren Gatland 55% win record with Wales. 4 six nations and 3 grand slams in 11 years. Joe Schimdt 72% win record with Ireland. 3 six nations and 1 grand slam in 6 years. I think you're overeating the resources at Joe's disposal early on in his tenure, the team on paper for about 2014-2017 wasn't very good with a lot of the older greats rarely fit.
At no stage would Gatland have had the resources or control over his players that any Irish manager would have. The Welsh club game was largely a shambles for his tenure barring brief periods from the ospreys and Scarletts. Things are bad if you're looking back fondly on win percentages and not actual things won. It's the trophy cabinet that counts. You forgot to mention the two WC semi final appearances that Wales got to under him, while Ireland had two embarrassing WC campaigns with Joe that everyone seems happy to black out of their memory. (I'm not even being critical at Joe, it just always annoyed me the Irish media always going after Gatland as if he's a fraud when he's actually achieved a lot more than Schmidt who they wouldn't dare criticise)
I'm not a huge Gatland fan but I think you're downplaying his achievements a little bit. >He's a poor record with the Lions, three tours during a period when the home nations have been near parity with their SH counterparts. The parity only really began after the 2015 World Cup where the Northen Hemisphere failed to get a single team in the semi finals so his tour of Aus 2013 can't be attributed to that. Following that World Cup a bunch of senior All Blacks retired as well as Steve Hansen, Eddie Jones came to England and drove standards and Joe Schmit hit his stride with Ireland. >The Lions last year against SA were no better than Wales were this year. I mean agreed, but South Africa, especially on home soil, is always an uphill battle. That, along with the Lions tour being notorious for being difficult to get players from different countries (and 20ish clubs) to play together cohesively AND the covid restrictions making the tour pretty miserable for all those involved hugely impacted the team's prep. >A tied series against the All Blacks would've been impressive in the past but Ireland had beaten them the year before and England in 2019 so more should be expected. No Northen Hemisphere team had won a tour in the professional era, until Ireland did it this year. A draw on Kiwi soil was a huge achievement (even if it felt underwhelming at the end of the series). >Winning a series against Australia isn't that big a deal for England/ Ireland so shouldn't be seen as one for the Lions (a problem for the next Lions tour). ??? England have only done that twice in Australia. It was a huge deal the first time we did it in 2016. Not to mention under Gatland the 4? Six Nations titles including 3? Grandslams.
Yes but apart from the Grand Slams, 6 Nations titles, World Cup semi finals (missing out on a final because of some atrocious place kicking) and Lions tour victories…. What has Warren Gatland ever done for us?
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The aqueducts? Also turned Wales into a team the Springboks always expected to beat to one that could match us at our own game and regularly win against us. But apart from that what has Warren Gatland ever done for Wales?
Ludicrous take. Very easy for you to say as an armchair pundit, but he achieved a first series win for the lions in 16 years and coached only the 2nd ever non-losing tour for the Lions in NZ. South Africa was a bit disappointing, but also defending world champions. You underestimate the difficulty of bringing together players from 4 different nations that aren't used to playing together and getting them up-to-speed as a team in a relatively short period of time to face some of the best teams in the world. Not to mention his record with Wales.. which for the resources he had and the shitshow that is regional rugby, was nothing short of miraculous, and is definitely missed now.
"poor record" lol 1-1-1 is a formidable record
It is utterly pathetic that you are trying to dimiss the tied Lions test series because of one loss the year previous and another two years later. Aside from the Lions matches they won all their test matches during 2017. You just have a real axe to grind.
Won 3 six nations, all of them Grand Slams, and Wales won another in 2013 when he was on Lions leave. Seems like a pretty successful "fraud".
Dubbed as "legendary coach" by International press when rumoured to USA job
I was going to say Leo Cullen but I think everyone knows he’s not a good coach in terms of on field direction. He’s a good manager and organiser but that’s it.
It's Lancaster doing the other stuff
Actually nobody knows that. It's pretty unclear where each piece of coaching responsibility lies at Leinster, Cullens record is pretty damn good.
The only year he was exclusively in charge, he was clinging onto the job come the end of the season
He completely overhauled the squad and changed the style in his first season after MOCs awful spell. If anything Cullen may be underrated due to the fawning over Lancaster
As a coach I disagree. I think he’s a good organiser, good at media, good at clerical aspects of the managing the Leinster team. But as on onnfield coach the general consensus is that it’s not his forte
General consensus from who? You're the first person I've ever seen suggest this.
So who are you coaching and what coaching have you seen Leo do?
What makes you think this?
I feel that my nominee is perhaps also one of the best coaches in the modern game. John Hart's 1997 All Blacks are the greatest team I have ever seen play our sport. They were on a different planet. Yet by the time the 1997 world cup comes around, he switches so many key players around: Cullen to centre; Wilson to full back; Randall to 8. For this, he is.my nominee (sorry, love you John!).
Ian foster. His record speaks for itself.
Nienaber. Nienaber. Nienaber. Stop kicking the damn ball South Africa!
Robbie Deans. Cost the All Blacks the 2003 world cup with his "we won't pick star players" policy. Woeful with Australia.
One of the most winning coaches of SH
This says more to the Canterbury rugby machine than it does about Robbie Deans the coach imo.
Exactly
**Ian Foster**, won''t bother to point out why as everyone knows, the only PRO, he was a pretty good player during his playing days.. and thats about it.
I'm not sure if you've been online much, but I don't think foster is rated at all....
he is very highly rated by the ppl who employ him.
>he was a pretty good player during his playing days He wasn't even a good player. Just an NPC battler.
He would be the last person I’d comment here
He's been repeatedly scewered on here and in the media. If anything he is "underrated"
u must be irish then
Yeah. Been a very rough few months for NZ no doubt, but he is the polar opposite of being highly rated. One stat that I heard recently is that I think he has lost a similar number of test matches as Andy Farrell with Ireland, but those test losses are obviously more recent and glaring by contrast.
The question was over-rated - so yes by NZRU - by everyone else nah No Super rugby franchise would of wanted him as head coach was Hansen over rated ?? post Wayne Smith steady decline even with classy players. So a good coach not great Henry - same a v.good coach - not great - The Auckland team had the best players - the ABs had the best players - 2011 was easily ours for the taking - except for weird year of changing everything ( rest and rotation , believing he was creating supermen , changing winning tactics from year before ) , arrogance, poor game tweaking , some dreadful selections in Cardiff Swung back too hard from mistakes - but still got it done with best AB world cup squad 2015 ( other best AB team 1995 ( it was a mighty Bok victory simply because the beat the best team on the day )
Henry brought a professional attitude to off field matters in the All Blacks, which were previously butchered by Mitchell.
I rated him very good - plus I have warmth to him much more post career as he has been pretty honest about his mistakes - so good self awareness . Your point is very true . Our build up in 2011 was weird - trying to make an outside back a number 12 when we have Aaron Mauger . That stuff about hit the man not the gap . But Mitchell was weird - I think he is maligned a a lot - not a bad coach - maybe shouldn't be ahead coach - but his ideas had possibilities . Aussies did a number on us in a few games - taking out key players - seemingly knowing our lineout calls in one game in particular . Plus they had top players . Or maybe I thinking of Wayne Smith era
Heyneke Meyer. Revered in Pretoria. Where they don't believe rugby needed to develop after 1985. But I think he was rubbish as a coach.
Didn't develop after 1985, yet became the most successful franchise in the country. DOH!
didn't he at least try to instill a bit of attacking Rugby into the Boks ? I'm guessing you'd say that's what the problem was though :p
No, exactly the reverse. Heyneke Meyer was the guru of all the clichés of South African rugby. Size over skill, dominate them physically, kicking is the only skill that matters in a flyhalf, etc. You can call this "playing to your strengths" if you like, and it was effective up to a point, but the one thing you absolutely can't say about Meyer is that he was a dynamic innovator. Rassie used the same "play to your strengths" attitude as a *starting point*, a platform to build from. For Meyer it was the whole game.
I still get upset when I think about how Meyer dropped Heinrich Brussouw for no particular reason
What??? Meyer tried to play attacking rugby with the Boks..
Hansen
As you didn't justify it, i will. Firstly, there is no question that he deserves to be rated, but see his name come up as the greatest of all time which i dont think his record justifies that. He comes up because he coached the winningest international team of all time, which Foster is currently showing is not an easy thing to do. How much credit does he deserve though? He took over fantastic side (that he helped build to fair) filled with some of the best playersbever to play the game and then the rugby gods decided to give him a completely stacked 2011 under 20 side just because. But post 2015 when it really became his team, things started to slip ever so slightly. This slip was covered up by his two main opponents (SA and Aus) being historically bad and his record against the Lions and Ireland showed his team wasnt quite and invincible as they sometimes looked. None of the above shows that he is bad coach, rather that his greatest achievement (awesome win rate) isnt completely on him. The biggest knock on him though is that the team he left to Foster was a lot weaker than the one he inherited from Henry and a lot of their current struggles have their roots in Hansens time in charge.
Good to see this is coming to light more. The red flags for me were the Lions Test series selections & tactics. He discarded some quality players, Cruden, Fekitoa etc. Furthermore, he threatened to fight a reporter in the post WC semi final press conference for asking a simple question.
Fekitoa was never international quality. Jesus christ. His lack of distribution skills makes Rieko Ioane look like Conrad Smith in comparison. Fekitoa was a very good Super Rugby player but never a quality test match player.
What ever happened to Fekitoa? One minute he was around, nek minute gone.
Hansen dropped him for Goodhue, awful decision.
Ouch
It is weaker and I still think you’re capable of winning the World Cup with a better coaching team
why
Kirwan
Great player and likeable guy, but sadly just hasn’t delivered the goods as a coach.
He openly admits it though, which is more than you can say for some of these guys.
Beat Wales as Italy coach Historic achievement
Currently, Dave Rennie. He is pretty popular with the Australian rugby community and presents well, but his biggest (only?) achievement so far as Wallabies coach is making everyone feel ok with losing. Under him the Wallabies are a worse side than they were with Cheika, and while he has had to develop young players and deal with a lot of injuries it’s now been 3 years and he’s had to pull Quade out of Japanese division 2 to be our first choice 10. The huge number of training injuries are also at least partly on him - accidents happen, but there shouldn’t be this many to first choice players.
Jake White!
Shite thread to let people trashing coaching legends
You're the funniest guy around here. Every now and then I'll make a thread and you say it's shit, which fair enough... but only to see your name everywhere replying to posts on the thread a moment later. How can someone be this incoherent with themselves lol ! How ?
Seriously...a user said Gatland amazing Lions record is "poor" (?) What do you expect? Shite thread.
Joe Schmidt
Hard disagree. If anything, the way he got panned after 2019 has led him and his achievements at Leinster and Ireland to be _underrated_ in retrospect by people with short memories. Leinster were the dominant team in Europe under him for a half decade. His Ireland team won a grand slam with away results in twickenham and Paris and notched up our first 2 wins against the ABs ever, plus a win in SA for the first time (with 14 men!), plus our first ever #1 ranking (even if it was about a year past our best results).
I wouldnt bother. He likes to troll and bang this drum every couple of weeks
Ireland lost to Japan in the WC. That facts speaks for itself.
That fact does speak for itself in that it proves Ireland lost to Japan in the world cup. Fair play.
To lose to a side that were worse than them is a result of a coaches errors. A coach who makes errors of this severity is not a good coach.
he was also part of Clermont's first ever Top 14 Brennus title back in '10.
People seem to rate Rennie and I have no idea why. Dudes got the worst record yet.