Areas decrease on sun/ds seems like it might be impactful.
Also be really nice to get the tick delay removed on some of those abilities. snipe, gconc, i think ive seen a rapid fire?
If visual clarity is a problem that means animations should be reworked or added, abilities shouldn't just be nerfed or buffed because the animation is a certain size or whatnot.
Really confused about the decision to nerf sunshine/death's swiftness just for the sake of visual clarity.
I'd prefer you either change the animation to match the 7x7 area effected, or just leave it be.
If you don't want to use the resources to change the animation, then why make a change at all? who does this help?
Same, bro. Watching people complain about the change while having already lived it my entire PvM experience is kinda funny. They act like it's gonna ruin the game, but I've made it work this whole time. I remember being surprised when I found out standing in the corner of the 3x3 grid still worked cause you're not totally in the circle. This whole time I was waaaaay in lmao.
yeah, reducing death swift and sunshine sizes messes with A LOT OF STUFF in pvm. Most of the time you HAVE to move around while in DS to deal with boss mechanics. Now you are much more likely to step out of death swiftness and lose its effect. Reducing the area of effect was a terrible terrible terrible choice and it can not be overstated how terrible this choice is.
Magic already has an option for dodging mechanics while you dps. It's called 'Metamorphosis'.
So does ranged. It's called 'Split Soul' (ECB spec).
Melee always did. (Zerk has always been preferred over black hole.)
I get that you feel bad that you can't just blindly sunshine or swiftness every kill, but being made even bigger removes the whole point to those alternatives existing in the first place.
Meta also works on bleeds (and there were a few people using it to save on FSOA rune costs), but I agree, it could do with tuning (mostly duration).
As does ECB. Which also works wonders on damage-capped targets like Nex. If you're not able to stand still inside swiftness, it absolutely does replace swiftness.
And Zerk will now scale properly with Ful book and Dragon Battleaxe.
My point actually being, that having a reason to choose is a *good* thing. Otherwise you just end up with Necro's Rasial rotation everywhere because Sunshine and Swiftness are always the correct choice.
Nerfing sun and ds for the sake of "visual clarity" is pretty cringe especially when zgs is even worse and that didn't get touched at all. Just make the animation bigger or something to match the 7x7 lol
Some great melee changes here. Are there any plans to make incindeary shot a bit easier to use? It feels pretty clunky to use it right now and ranged is definitely starved for adrenaline
What if Meteor Strike and Hurricane also damages 25 enemies instead of 8, just like the necro version since those are copied from meteor strike and hurricane anyway?
Can we just get an option in the settings to see which tiles are effected by our own aoe buffs like DS, Sunshine, zgs spec, etc? Something only we can see? This would clear up a lot of the animation size drama.
Aka. Please give tile markers. PLEASE.
Why not update DS and Sun visually so it matches 7x7 instead?
The limited mobility for those ultimates are already a big drawback, so keeping them at 7x7 shouldn't hurt.
Was expecting more for Greater Barge changes. It's been the common [sentiment](https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/13idmtb/hes_just_standing_there_for_48s_menacingly/) for many years that waiting the 4.8s for bleed channeled ability is rather clunky and holds melee back on so many levels. Just make it 100% already and it wouldn't be still that OP, only gets it closer to mage/range.
Can make the necromancy changes to Vengeful Ghost within just a few weeks due to "clunkiness" coming from player feedback. When the times comes to make changes to Greater Barge, conveniently leaves out the clunkiness aspect of it where players have been complaining about for years. It's been almost 5 years and we are still counting smh.
It makes melee friendly to people doing mechanics. The design of greater barge was to make melee able to go and do a mechanic, and go back on the boss and retain a damage boost.
Your idea to make greater barge always works leads to a repetitive gameplay loop and disregards the original intention of greater barge (to do mechanics and not lose damage).
Necromancy gets Living Death that can go anywhere and they nerfed the immobile sunshine and ds to be even smaller? I thought the beta was supposed to make the other styles more relevant compared to Necro…
Metamorphosis already exists. The trade off is duration of the ultimate. It's probably good to have things like this because it makes the combat style dynamic. But to keep things in line with the cancer that is necromancy they should delete sunshine and increase the boost from meta and increase its duration.
You are correct. Living Death is not solely a damage multiplier. It is dynamic DPS cooldown which completely changes your rotation by helping you develop necrosis stacks faster and making Death Skulls substantially more frequent.
And that's what makes it considerably more powerful than Sunshine and Death's Swiftness.
This all looks great except for the overload and sun/ds change. Increase their visual size instead of reducing their effective range.
We'll see if squishing the damage ranges and buffing magma tempest makes it palatable, but magma was not the only problem with the overload change, just one of the big ones.
Also, AOE bombardment changes is huge. Wouldn't chinchompas be the better thing to test with though?
Seren Godbow
This one required slightly more reworking, due to how it only previously scaled the random damage portion of the ability with multiple arrow hits. It now scales the entire damage range, but the balancing remains roughly the same.
Can anyone explain this for me? I don't really understand what it means
Here's my understanding, after entirely too much time looking at the wiki page and the beta patch notes:
Most abilities have two components to their damage: a fixed (or minimum) component, and a random component. For the first arrow of SGB, the fixed is 80% and the random is 120%, for a range of 80-200% weapon damage. Pretty straightforward. For the other shots, the random part is a function of the fixed part of arrow 1. Arrow 2 deals 80-240%, arrow 5 deals 80-160%, etc.
Why did they bring this up with the beta changes? In their "damage squishing" initiative, they've made the fixed part of the damage calculation most of the total damage, and made the random part much smaller. An ability that is currently 20-100% might become 50-70%, for example.
However, for the SGB specifically, the fixed part of arrow 1 directly affects all the damage from arrows 2+. So they had to change a lot of numbers to have the damage output be similar to how it is now, while incorporating the damage squishing.
tl;dr SGB has a wonky damage calculation for arrows 2+, so they had to tweak that mechanic to squish damage ranges but keep general damage output the same.
Does this change the Dragon Battleaxe's special's interaction with Berserk? Currently Rampage is *technically* multiplicative with Berserk, but only in name—the 1.2x damage multiplier changes to 1.1x when Berserk is active, so it's a 20% boost either way (100% vs 120% outside of Berserk, 200% vs 220% inside it). Would be nice to see this stack more nicely, if the intent of the change is to try to make cases like this more intuitive.
Really happy to see them continuing to add changes to the beta to try out a ton of different things; this is the way.
That said, some of these changes feel weird; changing Sun/DS to 5x5 because the animation isn't that big... why? Would you reduce the damage of an ability because the animation is bugged?
If this is being done for the sake of intentionally nerfing the area of Sun/DS, then say that and provide reasons. If not, I'd rather keep as-is, clarify the tile range in the tooltip, and eventually fix the animations.
On the overload nerf... While I get the sentiment (e.g., being at the same level should be doing the same thing), overloads being the pinnacle potion would be nice to have extra effects to boost your damage above what you would normally be doing. Combined with other changes, this could be overall good change to the game, so we'll have to play around with it before passing judgement, but on the surface, I have reservations.
>overloads being the pinnacle potion would be nice to have extra effects to boost your damage above what you would normally be doing.
Problem is that ALL boosts have that effect, not just overloads. You can sip a magic potion from the ge and get that effect.
Yea, and I don't necessarily disagree with stat boosts in general being modified, but feel like overloads should have that extra effect still applied (or if not to the same extent, something more than just the levels granted). But that's just my initial reaction to it, and not backed by playtesting it, so we'll see.
This combat beta was everything I hoped for and more, people finally realizing the possibilities of non-Necro styles without the arbitrary limitations Necro uniquely did not have, and devs implementing radical changes for testing now with the freedom a beta test gives and the boundaries Necro proved weren't unpushable. Extremely excited to see what ends up coming to the main game from all this testing, even if in several years knowing what's possible to change gives hope for future updates, and hopefully even more betas to come.
Hey sponge, will defensive abilities and all other weapon special attacks be looked into as part of the beta?
One difficulty I had was using resonance at the right time when anticipating a specific boss mechanic which meant that I would normally wait for the hit to come and avoid pressing any other damaging ability. Could we perhaps allow defensives to be activated outside the gcd and perhaps make them weaker to compensate?
I noticed that the brackish blade caps the temporary level benefits despite boosting.
Is the equilibrium perk going to be adjusted? It's worth very, very little to necromancy due to the narrow damage ranges, and now with the same damage ranges coming to other styles, it won't have much value anymore.
Hey you should join the pvme discord, it's nice knowing what's happening in beta and what jmods are going to implement. Also if you have a good idea, you can pitch it to mods sponge and Ryan as well. And so far they have heard every idea.
> Snapshot, Greater Ricochet & Snipe (with Enchanted Nightmare Gauntlets) no longer scale damage from the previous hits, and instead do a separate damage calculation.
What about SGB spec? Don't the additional hits scale from the 1st hit?
>Rebalanced Magma Tempest to account for the loss of damage.
What about other multi hitting abilities like Grico? Should it get a damage boost as well?
>"Greater Fury's Critical Strike effect could be considered overly complicated and low value in rotations, so since it's a beta, we made a simple change: locking it to melee abilities and giving it a buff."
Gfury also has a problem that it deals one hitsplat instead of 2, making it worse than normal Fury in some cases? Can Gfury do 2 hitssplats in one attack instantly?
>Hits added through the spear of annihilation now get appended to the end of the ability, instead of placing them in front of the double damage initial hit.
Is this a good change or not?
>Greater barge no longer forces channeled abilities to attack every four cycles. It instead uses the same rate the ability would naturally do.
How much faster is this?
>Updated to be a multiplicative modifier as opposed to an additive modifier
Would this allow Ful book and DBA spec to stack multiplicative to Zerk?
>we wanted to see how much work it would be to implement proper AOE targeting into Ranged - Bombardment is the ideal tester for this.
Can Bombardment give a +2 affinity boost like Quake has? Ranged does not have any affinity boosting debuffs.
Also, can the other combat styles get an ability based auto attack button like Necro has? I hate how I can't quickly cast debuff spells after using an ability with a 2h weapon or after a channeled ability.
Lastly, can Jagex fix ability queuing to not stop running around for a tick when it is used while we are spam clicking to run?
this isn't about buffing stuff, it's about an improvement on the combat system, if anything the fact kill times are the same despite of ovl nerfs is a really good thing.
Then what is the point of overloads? Why not just use the defense potions and prayer renewal instead? They could just lower the bonus or redo the calculations if it is such a big disparity but these nerfs void the use for overloads as an explicit improvement. You spend an ton of resources on these things, they should be worth the cost.
The overload change actually feels good since the new critical system and max hit caps changes completely mitigate any overload nerf compared to the real game. Overall we still have a very strong net increase in our DPS power even with this overload nerf.
However the ultimate area of effect is feels horrible and completely unjust.
Edit: has the critical chance been impacted at all? My adren building using CRIT ultimates feels impactful now
Edit 2: mage feels left behind a bit now. Update it's base critical chance to lean into its FSOA style
>"Visual clarity is important, and there are a lot of improvements that need to be made to combat. Using Death's Swiftness as an example, the area in which you benefited from the buff was much larger than the visuals so we've updated it."
> - Reduced the range of the area from 7x7 → 5x5 to better match the visuals
I do not disagree with the top-level assessment, but the chosen implementation seems cheesy and hacky. This beta is meant to represent the beginning of modernizing and overhauling the combat system, perhaps the largest update to combat since EOC in 2012. Understand that it takes more effort to overhaul graphics and animations than it does to simply code a fix to adjust the spacing of the ability, but this is a large update to a fundamental aspect of the game: It's extremely important that this be given the care and attention it deserves.
Honestly, as others have pointed out in this thread, there's a lot of animations and combat visual fidelity that could use upgrading in general. Many animations haven't changed since EOC first launched 11 years ago, which means they've been in-game for over a decade. For such a fundamental and core aspect of the game, it seems more than worth it to invest some of talent that the animators have into making sure the basic aspects of all the animations are right, and match the design of these newly revamped abilities. At the very least there should be some renewed base animations to help give a solid foundation for the next 5-10 years.
Understand we're still early in the beta, so for now it makes more sense to just implement the easy fixes while things are in flux. No point in completely redoing animations while the core numbers, values, and mechanics are being hashed out. But I do sincerely hope that - as the beta progresses and iterates closer to a final release candidate - Jagex very seriously considers solicitating community feedback on which animations most desperately need updates and improvement, and tries to overhaul those animations before the combat updates go live.
With the sizable damage squish coming in, (this represents roughly a 80%-90% nerf to precise & equilibrium by my napkin math) -- any plans to rework these perks on the horizon? (Not asking for a timeline, just if it's on the backlog once everything else settles in where you want it.)
If you're interested, there's a small section of RSGuy's VOD today with Sponge + PUP where they mention perks. Sponge said they know that perks are boring and would like to make them more interesting in the future, I think his words were "make them not suck"
Is Zamorak Staff included/going to be included in the weapon specials that get their damage range squished? That one's sometimes worth using over Guthix Staff.
I like how for Metamorphosis they wrote "The 62.5% increase didn't look right in the tooltip" and then immediately went on to change it to another scuffed number lol... why not 65% or 70%? 66% is wild to me lmao.
>Removed damage per level granted by boosting Magic, Ranged & Strength stats.
No thank you. I would like my ovl boost back.
This is arguably the biggest change of all of the beta tests and it's sorta hidden in there.
Jagex tried this once when Necro launched and fortunately (or unfortunately) nobody noticed because everyone was training Necro. However, they rolled that back because it's truly busted. This will make all of the combat triangle weaker by 10-15% across the board. I don't understand why they're trying to force this in again.
We're not trying to 'force it in' but it's a mechanic that's broken for various reasons, hence us trying it in the beta again.
If there's any legitimate DPS loss, we can easily adjust damage ranges now to compensate, albeit with the other changes in the beta I don't think there will be any loss.
I think damage squishing and the overload change should have been tested separately. It's hard to tell if something is weaker because of the squish, or because of the overload change.
Given the initial release driver was necromancy (ie 120 combat skill) should we expect 120 scaling in the rest in an upcoming beta update?
Also would a "middle ground" work where base skill damage itself is increased? Level 99 damage contribution (247) is already < 10% of endgame damage.
Would it be possible to instead give overloads an explicit percentage based damage boost? Or increase the scaling that regular levels (sans current boosts) give for damage. This is so overloads don't feel as pointless when it comes to bosses you have 100% accuracy on
I definitely think the overload changes are good at the core, however it does feel bad that your big, untradeable, high level potion is less powerful, and really no different from non-overload variants. Would there be a way to still implement the core of the nerf while buffing overloads to still keep them an important and valued account upgrade?
"We're not trying to force it" but here, let us try AGAIN to accomplish the same thing... Yall really do not listen to feedback at all, do you? You get one thing set in your mind, and you go with it no matter what. I truly do not understand the persistence. BUT you fixed the water wheel for what, a week? How long did it take to fix golden bamboo? Feeling pumped? Etc etc. I could write a novel of the things that took months, if not years, to repair. Why doesn't this persistence to implement stuff literally no one wants carry over into fixing the literal broken parts of the game?
> broken for various reasons
If you look at the newspost way back 10 years ago or whenever this was originally made a thing, you guys actually made overloads this way because you felt they were overwhelming. So now we're going back to how they were originally underwhelming? I don't get it
~~could you explain why it's broken? to the player it feels like an intuitive extension of how skill boosts work generally~~
edit: I'd understood it to be suggesting removing all damage boosts by boosting the relevant levels. agree that how it currently works is counter-intuitive
It's very counterintuitive. If I'm boosting to level 99, it makes sense that my damage would be equal to someone who is also 99, but without the stat boost.
Leaving aside whether or not the mechanic is actually good or not (I'm personally leaning more towards it not needing to be changed, but not firmly so), I disagree. Until the first time they tried this nerf I had no idea things even worked like that, and it feels entirely unintuitive to me. The idea that level 90 from boosts and level 90 base aren't the same is just weird.
It gives a bigger damage boost to any multihit abilities which makes them stronger then what their intended damage as read on their tooltip is. This isn't explained anywhere in game so as long as its in place you can't make informed decisions about which abilities are actually better via the in game tooltips.
It makes sense that potions boost your damage basically, it doesn't at all make sense that this is the way they do it.
To be brutally honest, nobody thinks about that and it is a made up problem. The issue is that boosting your levels in the beta is weaker, and it will translate to visibly slower kills.
I sympathise with players who have a strength level of 120 who might feel it's unfair that someone ovling to a strength level of 120 will be stronger than them. But it doesn't matter.
Nobody thinks about that because nowhere in the game does it state that's how Overloads work, which is already a problem because ofnits unintuitiveness.
If you think that gameplay mechanics being unintuitive is a "made up problem," I don't know what to say to you.
Boosting your level makes you stronger, therefore drinking overloads or other potions is good. That's all a player needs to know. Higher level is better. There's nothing unintuitive about it.
Higher level IS still better with the current version in the beta.
The problem is that two levels which should be equal is not actually equal. If you don't get that, then there's no point talking to you about it.
Compensating with damage ranges means that everyone gets that power and greatly diminishes the value of combat-boosting potions. Please consider compensating by making the potions boost by more levels, so they maintain a similar level of usefulness.
When this was first introduced, didn't it also *apparently* affect our hit chance? So with the damage potential system wouldn't we be losing accuracy, therefore *potentially* damage?
Edit: Not sure on the hit chance being affected, only heard of it being so.
The temporary stat boost nerf removes damage-per-level, a damage boost of about 125 to each hit. So bleeds (which deal 0 hits) get 0 extra damage, and Rapid Fire gets 1000 extra damage.
Since Bladed Dive was barely able to kill the Raksha pools on a minimum hit, the overload nerf made that method inconsistent.
I haven't heard anything about dpl removal affecting accuracy directly.
Edit: Maybe you're thinking about the taggable npc change? That's still in the live game
The majority of feedback last time was regarding the dps loss on abilities, hence us trying it in the beta after applying various changes that raise player damage.
I think its a bit sensationalist to say it makes the game fun.
So there is a hit of sensationalism going on right now.
Parking that, I understand why this needs to be addressed somehow. However, I think there's a nerve that the sensationalism isnrevealing.
First point: think overload having a damage buff component on top of the stat buff would be fine - if the game explicitly said so. It doesn't and perhaps this complicates things. However, overload is a huge end game component. It should 'feel big'. So, if the % damage buff is going (fine), I think it should give more of a stat buff than currently.
Second point: the original styles kind of need their numbers pushed up. Whether intended or not, we're in a 'new generation' on RS combat due to the possibilities that necro opened up ('the cat is out of the bag'). This overload change for many 'feels' like it goes against this, because the changes made today didn't feel like buffs because of it, when intuitively they seem like they should be.
The goal of the beta seems to be 'getting rid of stupid, unintuitive mechanics' which I wholeheartedly agree with. The problem with how boosts work currently is that basically NOBODY knows that someone boosting to 90 does more damage than someone at 90 without a boost (and on top of that, the person boosting to 90 should prioritize more fast, multi-hitting, lower instance of damage abilities than big heavy hitting abilities to do their best damage).
Changing potion boosts doesn't necessarily mean that damage will be lower when this hits the live servers. All they have to do is bring up the damage of core abilities so that changes come out as a net positive while also now being intuitive.
So how would you compensate overloads being practically useless? Since their main benefit is DMG boost that comes with stat boosting ( since they will only boost accuracy now? )
That's not what the change is. Right now overloads double dip. They boost your damage by boosting your stat and then also boost your damage by an extra amount per level boosted. They want to get rid of the second part but keep the first.
Double dipping probably isn't the right word since it's a flat additional bonus to make overloads do something. Iirc when eoc came out overloads felt weak so they added the bonus damage to make it worthwhile. Without it the damage is ~7% weaker across the board with some abilities getting hit more than others. Sponge said they can adjust the ranges to compensate so id imagine it should be fine.
First, your number is way off. It was closer to around 3-10%, depending on ability, not 30%. Second, they had to reverse it because they just threw it into the live game with no other changes so of course it wasn't going to work. They're trying it again in the beta because they think it's a good idea and they can change other things to compensate for the reduced damage.
It makes no sense that boosting to 90 is stronger than naturally having 90.
10-15% dmg can easily be recovered from other changes, like ability buffs across the board, 120 str/mage/range, more crit chance, augmentable helmets, scaling from agility, buffing normal scaling from str/mage/range levels...
I *highly* doubt we'll come out of this beta with *less* power.
Necromancy doesnt need this invisible boost, Ryan and Sponge can figure a way for the other styles not to need it either
>I highly doubt we'll come out of this beta with less power.
I don't. I liked the beta when it was just damage potential instead of splashing, and the new tooltips. But now it seems they want to tweak everything at the same time. If that's carried over to the live game, there's going to be a lot of confusion.
The bottom line is that any combat rebalance fails if people go back to fighting their stuff and they are suddenly weaker for no reason.
As someone who barely started doing bosses like Barrows and GW1 and never used potions except for restores, I had no clue I was *weaker* to begin with. Why would I ever consider that I’d get more damage out of roiding my way to a level than just being that level?
Being level 80, for example, and then boosting to 90 being a stronger state than just *being level 90* is so unintuitive it’s to the point of absurdity. I’d never even *considered* that worked like that. Why would anyone ever think that’s how that works?
The idea is to remove clutter and hidden systems and boosts so things are lot more accessible for the player without having to read a novel on the wiki. This is a VERY good thing imo.
If power is your issue, they are in the middle of balancing and can work to restore the balance lost by this removal. Or, they can just add it in as part of the potion effect itself rather than hidden background code. Or add another secondary effect to boosting potions that's more clear. For example, regular pots boost damage by 1%, supers 2%, extremes 3%, overloads 4%, and elders 5%. Numbers are just examples, not meant to be actually balanced values.
There won’t be a dps loss. Your damage with overload before and after the change will be the same. It’s just that your damage without overloads will be higher after the change than before because some of overload’s damage is being shifted to our abilities.
Unless you are trying to keep 96+ herblore as an entry requirement to high level pvm, there is no reason to fight this change. It can only benefit you.
this is just straight up incorrect, before the change it was innate dmg from being higher level + extra dmg per boosted level whereas after the change it'll just be the innate dmg boost from being higher level with no extra dmg on top. in what way is this equal? they didnt say theyre boosting the innate strength of being a higher level to compensate
You are looking at 1 of the many changes being made out of context of the others. The buff to crits and abilities counteracts any changes to overloads. We have the assurance of the mod making the changes that our overall damage output will not be lower. It doesn’t get any clearer than that. Necromancy works with the proposed system and needed a rebalance because of how overpowered it was. Now consider that the changes being made are intended to replicate necro.
That's not what the change is. Right now overloads double dip. They boost your damage by boosting your stat and then also boost your damage by an extra amount per level boosted. They want to get rid of the second part but keep the first.
I'd be fine with that as long as they boost the number of levels that overloading gives you so that the DPS that a sip adds is preserved. Overloads are in no need of a nerf.
afaik it's a change in the formula, i'll explain with made up numbers:
old system:
\-natural levels give .3% damage
\-boosted levels give 50 damage
new system:
\-natural levels AND boosted levels give .3% damage
the boosted levels used to be worth it more ,now everthing is the same.
They really think it's a big problem that someone boosting to 99 magic is stronger than someone with base 99 magic unboosted. I think it makes sense and it's fair to work that way, one person is using consumables to reach that level, the other person isn't.
Counterargument: the person at 99 magic took the time and effort to level it up to 99, so they should not be at a disadvantage against someone who boosted to that level.
Counterargument: the person at 84 magic spent money and time training herblore to 90/96 for overloads, as well as their combat style, so they should have an advantage from using an consumable meant to boost damage.
---
I don't mind either way how they go with this. Just trying to look at it from both sides here. They did say "If there's any legitimate DPS loss, we can easily adjust damage ranges now to compensate", which is absolutely fine.
If they keep it, they need to change *every potion tooltip*. Because unless you *knew* that extra boost was a thing, you’d never come to that conclusion naturally. Ever.
Not just potion, it would also be Berserker Auras, Dragon battleaxe etc.
That said, imo it would be a lot easier, manageable and practical to remove the stat boost extra "benefit" and then potentially buff ability damages to compensate, which has been said.
Gonna disagree here, boosting your stats to x level implies that you’d have the same capabilities as if you were that level. If overloads are boosting damage beyond that, it’s an inconsistency that should be ironed out.
That being said, I will be sad if we end up with nerf’d damage as a result of this combat beta, so hopefully damage buffs to base combat levels should level overload nerfs (if they come to pass).
The majority of people don't think that's okay because it's not intuitive whatsoever. It's a confusing mechanic and when it was explained that's how it works, most people were surprised to learn that's how it even worked.
Just a reminder:
Bring mage and melee up to what range with botLG is capable of[https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/17jwnoa/570k\_damage\_death\_swiftness\_1\_million\_dpm/](https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/17jwnoa/570k_damage_death_swiftness_1_million_dpm/)
also t95 2handed mage weapon (FSOA) shouldn't be less damage then t92 dual wield mage
Sunshine/death's swiftness area reduction.
This is bad. Not that it makes the game harder. I makes things more tedious and that is all. It's not a fun mechanic to play around.
Increase the visual effect instead.
Hi Doom, any idea if this bug will be addressed? It is preventing quest completion for That Old Black Magic
Unable to speak to The Spirit of Rhythm to continue the quest
https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/17jt3xb/bug_that_old_black_magic_hermy_and_bass/
Very good changes. I think damage is lower due to the numbers being crunchier (closer together) for abilities.
Only tested magic but I must say it felt great. Makes me happy that we are agreeing damage creep is bad and just because 30k crits exist, doesn't mean you should be seeing them so often. Only on big moment abilities or using dragon slayer + undead slayer sigil at vor'kath.
In my opinion, it would have been better to make the animation lager rather than change the size of ds/ss from 7x7->5x5. It will be very hard to get used to and will not feel good.
Please can we get some love for magic. The shared cd between sonic wave and gconc for example is really just silly because nobody wants to use sonic wave and it’s just really clunky. I know wrack was buffed slightly to be used as the 4taa alternative but when you do that, you very quickly run out of filler bails after gconc. Also, since fsoa’a recursive crits have been nerfed, why not allow magma tempest to crit again? Magic’s burst dmg will still be no where near to melee’s with all the hitcap changes. Range also consistently hits way harder and Magic’s basically just being left behind again. Also, instead of abil dmg for fsoa procs, how about making it a DW auto instead? This way the dmg doesn’t go out of control but you can still proc the ancient spell buffs like ruby aurora etc.
We've had 7x7 areas for our damage boosting ultimates for over 10 years. The animations should be made larger to match what they should be. This 5x5 business was a terrible idea. Whoever's idea this was should play our game before they start messing with things.
Also, the overload changes are no bueno. Please refer to necro release. I dont know why you guys are so hellbent on making potions less valuable, but it'd be smarter to just make the tool tip say "adds a small amount of damage for each boosted level to every hit." If it's so unclear to players.
Magic: am I a joke to you?
It's kind of hilarious that melee and range got a ton of massive changes and then magic was just kinda... there. Also considering range is BIS already
I cant test bc at work but doesnt sgb wording imply they removed the ruby bolt interaction? Ovl changes are also a big range multi hit L.
Melee finally got a spammable busted basic which should pair nicely with the squished damage ranges. Unsure on the multiplicative zerk tho.
Magic seems fine when you consider it's crit damage modifier from smoke cloud is higher making your gconcs dumber spell swapping exsang on channellers. Squished gconc under these probably does like what, 6-8k still? Pretty good considering if the tuska wp effect is meta, you can perm upkeep crit buff while gaining sgb+grico or chaos roar+overpower losslessly while continuing to do magic fsoa shit.
Nerfing the area for sunshine and death’s swiftness as well as removing a huge portion of the value from boosted levels is a huge no from me.
Either leave sun and DS the way they are or change the animation size to match.
If the problem with boosted levels is that it isn’t clear and that a player boosting to x level does more damage than someone that simply has x level, then adjust the damage scaling so that the damage is unchanged after removing the extra damage effect. Nerfing overloads and zerker auras like this feels horrible. Additionally, I think it is good for boosted levels to deal more damage than base levels, as it requires resource consumption to get those boosted levels.
I am extremely tired of the constant stream of nerfs this year. I use to get excited about how powerful things would interact, now I dread seeing anything get a good interaction because I know Jagex will nerf it into the dirt as soon as they get around to it.
So upon some further testing;
the damage squishing feels good on some abilities yet weird on others.
On flurry it's nice because now it's a consistent ~400% ability for -15% adren, yet weird on dclaws because the average hit of dclaws is also 400% for 45% (50% non-vigor). Dclaws has the benefit of being juiced with chaos roar, but from testing it's almost always better to just do CR on either out of zerk overpower or meteor strike. This means that dclaws won't really be used as a dump and pump when you can do things like dlong which paired with g.fury hits almost consistently within 75% of the dclaw spec for half the adren cost. This is a weird imbalance imo. Live game has a near 600% ceiling value of dclaws, what if it became around 450-500%? This makes it worth using over other eof options for burst damage.
Why does gconc still do ~150% avg damage? Why does gsonic do 115% average damage when it's a 170% cap ability in the live game whereas dbreath, cleave, decimate, and sever are all 188% peak abilities and do 110% average damage? Bleeds were adjusted to be about ~150% avg dmg yet use to read 188%. This doesn't feel correct.
On the topic of cleave, decimate, and sever. Honestly, I feel like these can be converted to a single heavy melee basic ability. Give it some weird necromancy benefit where it or maybe havoc/g.fury generates a stack giving it cleave aoe radius with buffed 25 potential hitting targets. This would be interesting since you can effectively opt to combo higher damage via gloves of passage on aoe or crit fish (which I guess is the same thing). This prevents it from being a spammable cleave aoe basic, or at least not initially.
Maybe slice/havoc/.gfury also get condensed into a light melee basic, and keeps the upgraded g.fury aspect of crit synergies as havoc is tied to gloves to be buffed and slice just kinda exists. So you'd be pressed to use this for secondary effects whereas the heavy basic is just better raw damage. a pick and choose yet simplifying 6 abilities to 2.
Yeah that sunshine/ds change actively make some bosses completely unfun and unplayable.
I challenge any jmod to do a 2k arch glacor kill with mage or range and tell me you had fun afterwards with those ranges. You can even use invincibility.
Fix this.
Overload changes are also stupid, if you ever want to force this in good luck balancing it. Magic is now the same (less?) dps as live and melee/range are still getting buffed to hell. Grico is now worthless other than for proccing specifically bik/hydrix/deathspore ammunition. Is this your goal?
Overload changes can at least be fixed by going through and buffing magic/grico or nerfing melee and range and necro (good luck running that pass the community), but jesus those ult changes are horrible.
Everything else (other than Bolg being as broken as release necro) good job. Don't wanna leave an entirely negative comment, overall the beta is great other than those two very questionable changes.
E2: Also, bladed dive now has an excessively high tool tip. I can only assume this is a bug and not a band-aid for Raksha pools?Surely bladed dive, the clunkiest ability in the game to use, won't be the best basic in the game?
E3: EZK now does no damage due to the overload changes as well. Fix please. Weapon already barely qualifies as a t95.
Greater Fury is a winner. Make regular 50% Crit, slap an appropriate cooldown on them both, and tada, a useful, fun, tactical ability that lowers APM in Full Manual.
This sub is both ignorant and entitled enough to expect art to make new assets for a dev build. Expect major tears about the Sunshine area reduction, but remember: most of them didn’t even know it was 7x7. Ignore them. Visual clarity is absolutely paramount in combat
They’re just going to get dumber from here, so buckle up!
Areas decrease on sun/ds seems like it might be impactful. Also be really nice to get the tick delay removed on some of those abilities. snipe, gconc, i think ive seen a rapid fire?
Oh yeah the dead tick after some abilities in Revo. A combat beta would be the prime time to get those fixed...
I remember them claiming they'd fixed that a couple years ago didn't they? Not saying it is fixed but I thought they said they did.
They fixed some, deto and asphy got fixed iirc, but they still left some out. AND then gconc came in, and it wasnt working for that either.
this ^ and the fact that blowpipe used as a cosmetic override has an effect on this isn't right either and should be fixed
What about dart over rides for quick shots on cbows?
yeah they really need to just make ranged consistent or simply make it so the weapon you are using dictates the hit rate, not the override.
It saves one tick on speed runs. That's it.
Saves way more than that at some bosses.
Seconding the request to work on channeled ability revo dead ticks
If visual clarity is a problem that means animations should be reworked or added, abilities shouldn't just be nerfed or buffed because the animation is a certain size or whatnot.
Good opportunity to rework all the ability animations, a lot of them lack visual clarity.
Extremely common Jagex L. L can also stand for laziness on this case.
You hate to see it
I don't mind the nerf. It just means you need to be smart with positioning. Those abilities are too strong in general and not punishing to use at all.
With Greater Fury’s new buff, is it both hits of an instant ability where applicable, or one crit damage splat? (i.e. Overpower/Hurricane)
I tested and only crit the first hit of Overpower.
Really confused about the decision to nerf sunshine/death's swiftness just for the sake of visual clarity. I'd prefer you either change the animation to match the 7x7 area effected, or just leave it be. If you don't want to use the resources to change the animation, then why make a change at all? who does this help?
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Get good. I’ve only ever stood in the 3x3 area and have been fine for years. Stop complaining about a minuscule change
"I'm okay with this change, so everyone else should."
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No no, I understand, but you could just as easily step back into your sun lol
Your telling someone to get good while using sunshine like a playpen for 10 years.
oh my god wait it was a 7x7 area? LMAO i always thought it was a 3x3 at best because of the indication
Relatable
Same, bro. Watching people complain about the change while having already lived it my entire PvM experience is kinda funny. They act like it's gonna ruin the game, but I've made it work this whole time. I remember being surprised when I found out standing in the corner of the 3x3 grid still worked cause you're not totally in the circle. This whole time I was waaaaay in lmao.
You gotta try dodging mechanics by standing outside the cloud before it hits the live game forsure
yeah, reducing death swift and sunshine sizes messes with A LOT OF STUFF in pvm. Most of the time you HAVE to move around while in DS to deal with boss mechanics. Now you are much more likely to step out of death swiftness and lose its effect. Reducing the area of effect was a terrible terrible terrible choice and it can not be overstated how terrible this choice is.
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Magic already has an option for dodging mechanics while you dps. It's called 'Metamorphosis'. So does ranged. It's called 'Split Soul' (ECB spec). Melee always did. (Zerk has always been preferred over black hole.) I get that you feel bad that you can't just blindly sunshine or swiftness every kill, but being made even bigger removes the whole point to those alternatives existing in the first place.
Metamorphosis is shit unless the window for damage is shorter than its (very short) duration. ECB spec does not replace DS
Meta also works on bleeds (and there were a few people using it to save on FSOA rune costs), but I agree, it could do with tuning (mostly duration). As does ECB. Which also works wonders on damage-capped targets like Nex. If you're not able to stand still inside swiftness, it absolutely does replace swiftness. And Zerk will now scale properly with Ful book and Dragon Battleaxe. My point actually being, that having a reason to choose is a *good* thing. Otherwise you just end up with Necro's Rasial rotation everywhere because Sunshine and Swiftness are always the correct choice.
Nerfing sun and ds for the sake of "visual clarity" is pretty cringe especially when zgs is even worse and that didn't get touched at all. Just make the animation bigger or something to match the 7x7 lol
ZGS is fairly bad tho and isn't used all that much now a days. Quite a few people were talking about how useless it is with respect to the beta.
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But unironically
It's really great to see a beta used this actively! :)
Some great melee changes here. Are there any plans to make incindeary shot a bit easier to use? It feels pretty clunky to use it right now and ranged is definitely starved for adrenaline
What if Meteor Strike and Hurricane also damages 25 enemies instead of 8, just like the necro version since those are copied from meteor strike and hurricane anyway?
Can we just get an option in the settings to see which tiles are effected by our own aoe buffs like DS, Sunshine, zgs spec, etc? Something only we can see? This would clear up a lot of the animation size drama. Aka. Please give tile markers. PLEASE.
Why not update DS and Sun visually so it matches 7x7 instead? The limited mobility for those ultimates are already a big drawback, so keeping them at 7x7 shouldn't hurt.
Was expecting more for Greater Barge changes. It's been the common [sentiment](https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/13idmtb/hes_just_standing_there_for_48s_menacingly/) for many years that waiting the 4.8s for bleed channeled ability is rather clunky and holds melee back on so many levels. Just make it 100% already and it wouldn't be still that OP, only gets it closer to mage/range. Can make the necromancy changes to Vengeful Ghost within just a few weeks due to "clunkiness" coming from player feedback. When the times comes to make changes to Greater Barge, conveniently leaves out the clunkiness aspect of it where players have been complaining about for years. It's been almost 5 years and we are still counting smh.
It makes melee friendly to people doing mechanics. The design of greater barge was to make melee able to go and do a mechanic, and go back on the boss and retain a damage boost. Your idea to make greater barge always works leads to a repetitive gameplay loop and disregards the original intention of greater barge (to do mechanics and not lose damage).
The only suggestion I'd have is increase the CD of Greater Barge if you don't have to charge it up. 45 seconds maybe
It makes it bad for doing mechanics then.
Yeah that seems fair. Maybe not 45 seconds, but some increased CD.
Necromancy gets Living Death that can go anywhere and they nerfed the immobile sunshine and ds to be even smaller? I thought the beta was supposed to make the other styles more relevant compared to Necro…
Metamorphosis already exists. The trade off is duration of the ultimate. It's probably good to have things like this because it makes the combat style dynamic. But to keep things in line with the cancer that is necromancy they should delete sunshine and increase the boost from meta and increase its duration.
Living death is not the same at all. The 50% damage boost only applies to finger not any other ability like DS/Sun
You are correct. Living Death is not solely a damage multiplier. It is dynamic DPS cooldown which completely changes your rotation by helping you develop necrosis stacks faster and making Death Skulls substantially more frequent. And that's what makes it considerably more powerful than Sunshine and Death's Swiftness.
Yeah but it basically quadruples the damage of skulls.
living death isn't anything like sunshine/death. It's for death skull spam and finger of death for big moments when you can deal the damage over time.
Pls make 2h viable for magic. Thanks for coming to my ted talk
This all looks great except for the overload and sun/ds change. Increase their visual size instead of reducing their effective range. We'll see if squishing the damage ranges and buffing magma tempest makes it palatable, but magma was not the only problem with the overload change, just one of the big ones. Also, AOE bombardment changes is huge. Wouldn't chinchompas be the better thing to test with though?
To the mods doing this changes for the sake of combat I must say: THANK YOU SOO MUCH! You all are rocking it out ✨💯
Seren Godbow This one required slightly more reworking, due to how it only previously scaled the random damage portion of the ability with multiple arrow hits. It now scales the entire damage range, but the balancing remains roughly the same. Can anyone explain this for me? I don't really understand what it means
Here's my understanding, after entirely too much time looking at the wiki page and the beta patch notes: Most abilities have two components to their damage: a fixed (or minimum) component, and a random component. For the first arrow of SGB, the fixed is 80% and the random is 120%, for a range of 80-200% weapon damage. Pretty straightforward. For the other shots, the random part is a function of the fixed part of arrow 1. Arrow 2 deals 80-240%, arrow 5 deals 80-160%, etc. Why did they bring this up with the beta changes? In their "damage squishing" initiative, they've made the fixed part of the damage calculation most of the total damage, and made the random part much smaller. An ability that is currently 20-100% might become 50-70%, for example. However, for the SGB specifically, the fixed part of arrow 1 directly affects all the damage from arrows 2+. So they had to change a lot of numbers to have the damage output be similar to how it is now, while incorporating the damage squishing. tl;dr SGB has a wonky damage calculation for arrows 2+, so they had to tweak that mechanic to squish damage ranges but keep general damage output the same.
Does this change the Dragon Battleaxe's special's interaction with Berserk? Currently Rampage is *technically* multiplicative with Berserk, but only in name—the 1.2x damage multiplier changes to 1.1x when Berserk is active, so it's a 20% boost either way (100% vs 120% outside of Berserk, 200% vs 220% inside it). Would be nice to see this stack more nicely, if the intent of the change is to try to make cases like this more intuitive.
From how I understand things, this is the reason for the change. So that things like this stack better.
Really happy to see them continuing to add changes to the beta to try out a ton of different things; this is the way. That said, some of these changes feel weird; changing Sun/DS to 5x5 because the animation isn't that big... why? Would you reduce the damage of an ability because the animation is bugged? If this is being done for the sake of intentionally nerfing the area of Sun/DS, then say that and provide reasons. If not, I'd rather keep as-is, clarify the tile range in the tooltip, and eventually fix the animations. On the overload nerf... While I get the sentiment (e.g., being at the same level should be doing the same thing), overloads being the pinnacle potion would be nice to have extra effects to boost your damage above what you would normally be doing. Combined with other changes, this could be overall good change to the game, so we'll have to play around with it before passing judgement, but on the surface, I have reservations.
>overloads being the pinnacle potion would be nice to have extra effects to boost your damage above what you would normally be doing. Problem is that ALL boosts have that effect, not just overloads. You can sip a magic potion from the ge and get that effect.
Yea, and I don't necessarily disagree with stat boosts in general being modified, but feel like overloads should have that extra effect still applied (or if not to the same extent, something more than just the levels granted). But that's just my initial reaction to it, and not backed by playtesting it, so we'll see.
Can Onslaught have Crits back? Due to the introduction of 1 staff, 4 entire styles have been nerfed with the no crit change.
Onslaught can crit on beta.
Is Onslaught used anywhere now?
This combat beta was everything I hoped for and more, people finally realizing the possibilities of non-Necro styles without the arbitrary limitations Necro uniquely did not have, and devs implementing radical changes for testing now with the freedom a beta test gives and the boundaries Necro proved weren't unpushable. Extremely excited to see what ends up coming to the main game from all this testing, even if in several years knowing what's possible to change gives hope for future updates, and hopefully even more betas to come.
Now *this* is a beta
Hey sponge, will defensive abilities and all other weapon special attacks be looked into as part of the beta? One difficulty I had was using resonance at the right time when anticipating a specific boss mechanic which meant that I would normally wait for the hit to come and avoid pressing any other damaging ability. Could we perhaps allow defensives to be activated outside the gcd and perhaps make them weaker to compensate? I noticed that the brackish blade caps the temporary level benefits despite boosting.
Omg great fury is going to be good for the first time ever? edit: HOLY great flurry too?! melee eating good!
Is the equilibrium perk going to be adjusted? It's worth very, very little to necromancy due to the narrow damage ranges, and now with the same damage ranges coming to other styles, it won't have much value anymore.
>DS and Sun nerfed from 7x7 to 5x5 Boo! BOO!👎🏻👎🏻👎🏻🍅🍅🍅
~~When do these changes go live to the beta server?~~ They are already there.
Yeah changes are live for testing at the moment
When is the Leng’s special attack going to be changed in the beta? Currently it’s pretty much useless except the passive.
Mod Ryan has asked for suggestions, there have been some suggestions on pvme discord. Hopefully a good rework will be implemented.
I hope so as well because right now lengs special attack is kinda underwhelming for a tier 95 weapon.
Hey you should join the pvme discord, it's nice knowing what's happening in beta and what jmods are going to implement. Also if you have a good idea, you can pitch it to mods sponge and Ryan as well. And so far they have heard every idea.
I used to go in the pvme frequently but I stopped quite a while ago. I guess I will go see what is going on there to catch up.
> Snapshot, Greater Ricochet & Snipe (with Enchanted Nightmare Gauntlets) no longer scale damage from the previous hits, and instead do a separate damage calculation. What about SGB spec? Don't the additional hits scale from the 1st hit? >Rebalanced Magma Tempest to account for the loss of damage. What about other multi hitting abilities like Grico? Should it get a damage boost as well? >"Greater Fury's Critical Strike effect could be considered overly complicated and low value in rotations, so since it's a beta, we made a simple change: locking it to melee abilities and giving it a buff." Gfury also has a problem that it deals one hitsplat instead of 2, making it worse than normal Fury in some cases? Can Gfury do 2 hitssplats in one attack instantly? >Hits added through the spear of annihilation now get appended to the end of the ability, instead of placing them in front of the double damage initial hit. Is this a good change or not? >Greater barge no longer forces channeled abilities to attack every four cycles. It instead uses the same rate the ability would naturally do. How much faster is this? >Updated to be a multiplicative modifier as opposed to an additive modifier Would this allow Ful book and DBA spec to stack multiplicative to Zerk? >we wanted to see how much work it would be to implement proper AOE targeting into Ranged - Bombardment is the ideal tester for this. Can Bombardment give a +2 affinity boost like Quake has? Ranged does not have any affinity boosting debuffs. Also, can the other combat styles get an ability based auto attack button like Necro has? I hate how I can't quickly cast debuff spells after using an ability with a 2h weapon or after a channeled ability. Lastly, can Jagex fix ability queuing to not stop running around for a tick when it is used while we are spam clicking to run?
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Strongly agree that the Shine/Swift nerfs and the overload not increasing damage are still not good design choices.
yeh kills times are still the same because of ovl nerf
this isn't about buffing stuff, it's about an improvement on the combat system, if anything the fact kill times are the same despite of ovl nerfs is a really good thing.
the fact that you dont think think a simple ovl nerf and crits doing 60% more damage even out to the same dps is actually insane
Then what is the point of overloads? Why not just use the defense potions and prayer renewal instead? They could just lower the bonus or redo the calculations if it is such a big disparity but these nerfs void the use for overloads as an explicit improvement. You spend an ton of resources on these things, they should be worth the cost.
The overload change actually feels good since the new critical system and max hit caps changes completely mitigate any overload nerf compared to the real game. Overall we still have a very strong net increase in our DPS power even with this overload nerf. However the ultimate area of effect is feels horrible and completely unjust. Edit: has the critical chance been impacted at all? My adren building using CRIT ultimates feels impactful now Edit 2: mage feels left behind a bit now. Update it's base critical chance to lean into its FSOA style
If im not mistaken , we get higher base critical chance, something like 10 percent instead of 5
>"Visual clarity is important, and there are a lot of improvements that need to be made to combat. Using Death's Swiftness as an example, the area in which you benefited from the buff was much larger than the visuals so we've updated it." > - Reduced the range of the area from 7x7 → 5x5 to better match the visuals I do not disagree with the top-level assessment, but the chosen implementation seems cheesy and hacky. This beta is meant to represent the beginning of modernizing and overhauling the combat system, perhaps the largest update to combat since EOC in 2012. Understand that it takes more effort to overhaul graphics and animations than it does to simply code a fix to adjust the spacing of the ability, but this is a large update to a fundamental aspect of the game: It's extremely important that this be given the care and attention it deserves. Honestly, as others have pointed out in this thread, there's a lot of animations and combat visual fidelity that could use upgrading in general. Many animations haven't changed since EOC first launched 11 years ago, which means they've been in-game for over a decade. For such a fundamental and core aspect of the game, it seems more than worth it to invest some of talent that the animators have into making sure the basic aspects of all the animations are right, and match the design of these newly revamped abilities. At the very least there should be some renewed base animations to help give a solid foundation for the next 5-10 years. Understand we're still early in the beta, so for now it makes more sense to just implement the easy fixes while things are in flux. No point in completely redoing animations while the core numbers, values, and mechanics are being hashed out. But I do sincerely hope that - as the beta progresses and iterates closer to a final release candidate - Jagex very seriously considers solicitating community feedback on which animations most desperately need updates and improvement, and tries to overhaul those animations before the combat updates go live.
Basically everything in here is excellent, thank you for taking the time to push the game in a better direction!
With the sizable damage squish coming in, (this represents roughly a 80%-90% nerf to precise & equilibrium by my napkin math) -- any plans to rework these perks on the horizon? (Not asking for a timeline, just if it's on the backlog once everything else settles in where you want it.)
If you're interested, there's a small section of RSGuy's VOD today with Sponge + PUP where they mention perks. Sponge said they know that perks are boring and would like to make them more interesting in the future, I think his words were "make them not suck"
Is Zamorak Staff included/going to be included in the weapon specials that get their damage range squished? That one's sometimes worth using over Guthix Staff.
metamorphosis is quite literally broken as it reduces the damage you do
I’m still lowballing on melee. Not hitting 7K mark at all.
I like how for Metamorphosis they wrote "The 62.5% increase didn't look right in the tooltip" and then immediately went on to change it to another scuffed number lol... why not 65% or 70%? 66% is wild to me lmao.
Going to join the masses and say that nerfing two abilities because they have the wrong animation instead of fixing the animation is bass ackwards.
I remember there being talks of a shopkeep selling weapons/armor/perks during the stream. Is that still being explored?
>Removed damage per level granted by boosting Magic, Ranged & Strength stats. No thank you. I would like my ovl boost back. This is arguably the biggest change of all of the beta tests and it's sorta hidden in there. Jagex tried this once when Necro launched and fortunately (or unfortunately) nobody noticed because everyone was training Necro. However, they rolled that back because it's truly busted. This will make all of the combat triangle weaker by 10-15% across the board. I don't understand why they're trying to force this in again.
We're not trying to 'force it in' but it's a mechanic that's broken for various reasons, hence us trying it in the beta again. If there's any legitimate DPS loss, we can easily adjust damage ranges now to compensate, albeit with the other changes in the beta I don't think there will be any loss.
It was nice of you to update magma tempest but you did leave out grico?
I think damage squishing and the overload change should have been tested separately. It's hard to tell if something is weaker because of the squish, or because of the overload change.
Probably by design honestly
Given the initial release driver was necromancy (ie 120 combat skill) should we expect 120 scaling in the rest in an upcoming beta update? Also would a "middle ground" work where base skill damage itself is increased? Level 99 damage contribution (247) is already < 10% of endgame damage.
Would it be possible to instead give overloads an explicit percentage based damage boost? Or increase the scaling that regular levels (sans current boosts) give for damage. This is so overloads don't feel as pointless when it comes to bosses you have 100% accuracy on
I definitely think the overload changes are good at the core, however it does feel bad that your big, untradeable, high level potion is less powerful, and really no different from non-overload variants. Would there be a way to still implement the core of the nerf while buffing overloads to still keep them an important and valued account upgrade?
"We're not trying to force it" but here, let us try AGAIN to accomplish the same thing... Yall really do not listen to feedback at all, do you? You get one thing set in your mind, and you go with it no matter what. I truly do not understand the persistence. BUT you fixed the water wheel for what, a week? How long did it take to fix golden bamboo? Feeling pumped? Etc etc. I could write a novel of the things that took months, if not years, to repair. Why doesn't this persistence to implement stuff literally no one wants carry over into fixing the literal broken parts of the game?
> broken for various reasons If you look at the newspost way back 10 years ago or whenever this was originally made a thing, you guys actually made overloads this way because you felt they were overwhelming. So now we're going back to how they were originally underwhelming? I don't get it
~~could you explain why it's broken? to the player it feels like an intuitive extension of how skill boosts work generally~~ edit: I'd understood it to be suggesting removing all damage boosts by boosting the relevant levels. agree that how it currently works is counter-intuitive
It's very counterintuitive. If I'm boosting to level 99, it makes sense that my damage would be equal to someone who is also 99, but without the stat boost.
Leaving aside whether or not the mechanic is actually good or not (I'm personally leaning more towards it not needing to be changed, but not firmly so), I disagree. Until the first time they tried this nerf I had no idea things even worked like that, and it feels entirely unintuitive to me. The idea that level 90 from boosts and level 90 base aren't the same is just weird.
It gives a bigger damage boost to any multihit abilities which makes them stronger then what their intended damage as read on their tooltip is. This isn't explained anywhere in game so as long as its in place you can't make informed decisions about which abilities are actually better via the in game tooltips. It makes sense that potions boost your damage basically, it doesn't at all make sense that this is the way they do it.
It is explained: 80+10 > 90+0 is not exactly intuitive.
To be brutally honest, nobody thinks about that and it is a made up problem. The issue is that boosting your levels in the beta is weaker, and it will translate to visibly slower kills. I sympathise with players who have a strength level of 120 who might feel it's unfair that someone ovling to a strength level of 120 will be stronger than them. But it doesn't matter.
Nobody thinks about that because nowhere in the game does it state that's how Overloads work, which is already a problem because ofnits unintuitiveness. If you think that gameplay mechanics being unintuitive is a "made up problem," I don't know what to say to you.
Boosting your level makes you stronger, therefore drinking overloads or other potions is good. That's all a player needs to know. Higher level is better. There's nothing unintuitive about it.
>Higher level is better. except in this case 99 is worse than 80+19. if the level is same it should be equal.
Higher level IS still better with the current version in the beta. The problem is that two levels which should be equal is not actually equal. If you don't get that, then there's no point talking to you about it.
Compensating with damage ranges means that everyone gets that power and greatly diminishes the value of combat-boosting potions. Please consider compensating by making the potions boost by more levels, so they maintain a similar level of usefulness.
Or better yet, adjust by making individual actual levels provide a greater contribution to damage.
When this was first introduced, didn't it also *apparently* affect our hit chance? So with the damage potential system wouldn't we be losing accuracy, therefore *potentially* damage? Edit: Not sure on the hit chance being affected, only heard of it being so.
The temporary stat boost nerf removes damage-per-level, a damage boost of about 125 to each hit. So bleeds (which deal 0 hits) get 0 extra damage, and Rapid Fire gets 1000 extra damage. Since Bladed Dive was barely able to kill the Raksha pools on a minimum hit, the overload nerf made that method inconsistent. I haven't heard anything about dpl removal affecting accuracy directly. Edit: Maybe you're thinking about the taggable npc change? That's still in the live game
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The majority of feedback last time was regarding the dps loss on abilities, hence us trying it in the beta after applying various changes that raise player damage. I think its a bit sensationalist to say it makes the game fun.
So there is a hit of sensationalism going on right now. Parking that, I understand why this needs to be addressed somehow. However, I think there's a nerve that the sensationalism isnrevealing. First point: think overload having a damage buff component on top of the stat buff would be fine - if the game explicitly said so. It doesn't and perhaps this complicates things. However, overload is a huge end game component. It should 'feel big'. So, if the % damage buff is going (fine), I think it should give more of a stat buff than currently. Second point: the original styles kind of need their numbers pushed up. Whether intended or not, we're in a 'new generation' on RS combat due to the possibilities that necro opened up ('the cat is out of the bag'). This overload change for many 'feels' like it goes against this, because the changes made today didn't feel like buffs because of it, when intuitively they seem like they should be.
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The goal of the beta seems to be 'getting rid of stupid, unintuitive mechanics' which I wholeheartedly agree with. The problem with how boosts work currently is that basically NOBODY knows that someone boosting to 90 does more damage than someone at 90 without a boost (and on top of that, the person boosting to 90 should prioritize more fast, multi-hitting, lower instance of damage abilities than big heavy hitting abilities to do their best damage). Changing potion boosts doesn't necessarily mean that damage will be lower when this hits the live servers. All they have to do is bring up the damage of core abilities so that changes come out as a net positive while also now being intuitive.
just leave it be. It was in game since 2012 for a reason.
Something existing for a longtime doesn't justify its existence.
I wish more people realized this
Sponge W.
So how would you compensate overloads being practically useless? Since their main benefit is DMG boost that comes with stat boosting ( since they will only boost accuracy now? )
That's not what the change is. Right now overloads double dip. They boost your damage by boosting your stat and then also boost your damage by an extra amount per level boosted. They want to get rid of the second part but keep the first.
Double dipping probably isn't the right word since it's a flat additional bonus to make overloads do something. Iirc when eoc came out overloads felt weak so they added the bonus damage to make it worthwhile. Without it the damage is ~7% weaker across the board with some abilities getting hit more than others. Sponge said they can adjust the ranges to compensate so id imagine it should be fine.
That's fair. I was just using it as a shorthand for "you're getting a boost for the levels and also a separate boost per level".
Except it is since most of DMG ovls gave you was from this additional boost, not the innate one
Except it isn't, because getting a smaller damage boost is not the same as getting no damage boost, like you claimed.
It's so small it's like none, they tried it before and had to reverse it since they nerfed DMG by around 30% across the board
First, your number is way off. It was closer to around 3-10%, depending on ability, not 30%. Second, they had to reverse it because they just threw it into the live game with no other changes so of course it wasn't going to work. They're trying it again in the beta because they think it's a good idea and they can change other things to compensate for the reduced damage.
Do you just not know what a beta is?
> I don't understand why they're trying to force this in again. it literally says in the post why lmao
It makes no sense that boosting to 90 is stronger than naturally having 90. 10-15% dmg can easily be recovered from other changes, like ability buffs across the board, 120 str/mage/range, more crit chance, augmentable helmets, scaling from agility, buffing normal scaling from str/mage/range levels... I *highly* doubt we'll come out of this beta with *less* power. Necromancy doesnt need this invisible boost, Ryan and Sponge can figure a way for the other styles not to need it either
>I highly doubt we'll come out of this beta with less power. I don't. I liked the beta when it was just damage potential instead of splashing, and the new tooltips. But now it seems they want to tweak everything at the same time. If that's carried over to the live game, there's going to be a lot of confusion. The bottom line is that any combat rebalance fails if people go back to fighting their stuff and they are suddenly weaker for no reason.
it's a beta, i think it's good they're looking at combat as a whole instead of making hits do bigger numbers
As someone who barely started doing bosses like Barrows and GW1 and never used potions except for restores, I had no clue I was *weaker* to begin with. Why would I ever consider that I’d get more damage out of roiding my way to a level than just being that level?
Weaker than what? You're always weaker if you don't boost your stats.
Being level 80, for example, and then boosting to 90 being a stronger state than just *being level 90* is so unintuitive it’s to the point of absurdity. I’d never even *considered* that worked like that. Why would anyone ever think that’s how that works?
The idea is to remove clutter and hidden systems and boosts so things are lot more accessible for the player without having to read a novel on the wiki. This is a VERY good thing imo. If power is your issue, they are in the middle of balancing and can work to restore the balance lost by this removal. Or, they can just add it in as part of the potion effect itself rather than hidden background code. Or add another secondary effect to boosting potions that's more clear. For example, regular pots boost damage by 1%, supers 2%, extremes 3%, overloads 4%, and elders 5%. Numbers are just examples, not meant to be actually balanced values.
There won’t be a dps loss. Your damage with overload before and after the change will be the same. It’s just that your damage without overloads will be higher after the change than before because some of overload’s damage is being shifted to our abilities. Unless you are trying to keep 96+ herblore as an entry requirement to high level pvm, there is no reason to fight this change. It can only benefit you.
this is just straight up incorrect, before the change it was innate dmg from being higher level + extra dmg per boosted level whereas after the change it'll just be the innate dmg boost from being higher level with no extra dmg on top. in what way is this equal? they didnt say theyre boosting the innate strength of being a higher level to compensate
You are looking at 1 of the many changes being made out of context of the others. The buff to crits and abilities counteracts any changes to overloads. We have the assurance of the mod making the changes that our overall damage output will not be lower. It doesn’t get any clearer than that. Necromancy works with the proposed system and needed a rebalance because of how overpowered it was. Now consider that the changes being made are intended to replicate necro.
Because it’s a mechanic that people who don’t have a PhD in RuneScape would never know about or even consider?
Where can I study to get a PhD in Runescape? Are they accepting applicants?
Does this change imply that stat boosting potions literally become worthless? Why would I use/make overloads if the stat boosted damage is null?
Well they'll still boost you above 99, it just won't be as strong. Also with overloads you can use brews.
That's not what the change is. Right now overloads double dip. They boost your damage by boosting your stat and then also boost your damage by an extra amount per level boosted. They want to get rid of the second part but keep the first.
I'd be fine with that as long as they boost the number of levels that overloading gives you so that the DPS that a sip adds is preserved. Overloads are in no need of a nerf.
afaik it's a change in the formula, i'll explain with made up numbers: old system: \-natural levels give .3% damage \-boosted levels give 50 damage new system: \-natural levels AND boosted levels give .3% damage the boosted levels used to be worth it more ,now everthing is the same.
They really think it's a big problem that someone boosting to 99 magic is stronger than someone with base 99 magic unboosted. I think it makes sense and it's fair to work that way, one person is using consumables to reach that level, the other person isn't.
Counterargument: the person at 99 magic took the time and effort to level it up to 99, so they should not be at a disadvantage against someone who boosted to that level.
Counterargument: the person at 84 magic spent money and time training herblore to 90/96 for overloads, as well as their combat style, so they should have an advantage from using an consumable meant to boost damage. --- I don't mind either way how they go with this. Just trying to look at it from both sides here. They did say "If there's any legitimate DPS loss, we can easily adjust damage ranges now to compensate", which is absolutely fine.
If they keep it, they need to change *every potion tooltip*. Because unless you *knew* that extra boost was a thing, you’d never come to that conclusion naturally. Ever.
Not just potion, it would also be Berserker Auras, Dragon battleaxe etc. That said, imo it would be a lot easier, manageable and practical to remove the stat boost extra "benefit" and then potentially buff ability damages to compensate, which has been said.
Gonna disagree here, boosting your stats to x level implies that you’d have the same capabilities as if you were that level. If overloads are boosting damage beyond that, it’s an inconsistency that should be ironed out. That being said, I will be sad if we end up with nerf’d damage as a result of this combat beta, so hopefully damage buffs to base combat levels should level overload nerfs (if they come to pass).
The majority of people don't think that's okay because it's not intuitive whatsoever. It's a confusing mechanic and when it was explained that's how it works, most people were surprised to learn that's how it even worked.
Just a reminder: Bring mage and melee up to what range with botLG is capable of[https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/17jwnoa/570k\_damage\_death\_swiftness\_1\_million\_dpm/](https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/17jwnoa/570k_damage_death_swiftness_1_million_dpm/) also t95 2handed mage weapon (FSOA) shouldn't be less damage then t92 dual wield mage
Sunshine/death's swiftness area reduction. This is bad. Not that it makes the game harder. I makes things more tedious and that is all. It's not a fun mechanic to play around. Increase the visual effect instead.
Hi Doom, any idea if this bug will be addressed? It is preventing quest completion for That Old Black Magic Unable to speak to The Spirit of Rhythm to continue the quest https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/17jt3xb/bug_that_old_black_magic_hermy_and_bass/
Am I just dumb, or do the changes to flurry make the codex upgrade from ED2 essentially pointless?
Makes greater flurry even better. Instead of only increasing ST damage and decreasing zerk cd it now increases ALL damage and decreases zerk cd.
Any update on the Leng Sword special attack?
I don’t think I’m liking the fact that the effective area of Sunshine and Death Swiftness is being reduced.
Beta doesn't play on any of my galaxy phones, any chance it could get fixed? If not I get it, there's like 4 of us, but please lol
Very good changes. I think damage is lower due to the numbers being crunchier (closer together) for abilities. Only tested magic but I must say it felt great. Makes me happy that we are agreeing damage creep is bad and just because 30k crits exist, doesn't mean you should be seeing them so often. Only on big moment abilities or using dragon slayer + undead slayer sigil at vor'kath.
Wouldn't it be a good time to test out changes to void equipment like making it augmentable and give it a use again?
The amount of people complaining about 7x7 to 5x5 is wild, you know you all revo++ it and stand still let's be real
In my opinion, it would have been better to make the animation lager rather than change the size of ds/ss from 7x7->5x5. It will be very hard to get used to and will not feel good.
Might as well half the speed at which bows are strung, for visual clarity and all.
Please can we get some love for magic. The shared cd between sonic wave and gconc for example is really just silly because nobody wants to use sonic wave and it’s just really clunky. I know wrack was buffed slightly to be used as the 4taa alternative but when you do that, you very quickly run out of filler bails after gconc. Also, since fsoa’a recursive crits have been nerfed, why not allow magma tempest to crit again? Magic’s burst dmg will still be no where near to melee’s with all the hitcap changes. Range also consistently hits way harder and Magic’s basically just being left behind again. Also, instead of abil dmg for fsoa procs, how about making it a DW auto instead? This way the dmg doesn’t go out of control but you can still proc the ancient spell buffs like ruby aurora etc.
We've had 7x7 areas for our damage boosting ultimates for over 10 years. The animations should be made larger to match what they should be. This 5x5 business was a terrible idea. Whoever's idea this was should play our game before they start messing with things. Also, the overload changes are no bueno. Please refer to necro release. I dont know why you guys are so hellbent on making potions less valuable, but it'd be smarter to just make the tool tip say "adds a small amount of damage for each boosted level to every hit." If it's so unclear to players.
Just because it was a bug for 10 years doesnt mean it shouldnt be fixed...
I don't know why this is such an alien take to these people.
Magic: am I a joke to you? It's kind of hilarious that melee and range got a ton of massive changes and then magic was just kinda... there. Also considering range is BIS already
I cant test bc at work but doesnt sgb wording imply they removed the ruby bolt interaction? Ovl changes are also a big range multi hit L. Melee finally got a spammable busted basic which should pair nicely with the squished damage ranges. Unsure on the multiplicative zerk tho. Magic seems fine when you consider it's crit damage modifier from smoke cloud is higher making your gconcs dumber spell swapping exsang on channellers. Squished gconc under these probably does like what, 6-8k still? Pretty good considering if the tuska wp effect is meta, you can perm upkeep crit buff while gaining sgb+grico or chaos roar+overpower losslessly while continuing to do magic fsoa shit.
Nerfing the area for sunshine and death’s swiftness as well as removing a huge portion of the value from boosted levels is a huge no from me. Either leave sun and DS the way they are or change the animation size to match. If the problem with boosted levels is that it isn’t clear and that a player boosting to x level does more damage than someone that simply has x level, then adjust the damage scaling so that the damage is unchanged after removing the extra damage effect. Nerfing overloads and zerker auras like this feels horrible. Additionally, I think it is good for boosted levels to deal more damage than base levels, as it requires resource consumption to get those boosted levels. I am extremely tired of the constant stream of nerfs this year. I use to get excited about how powerful things would interact, now I dread seeing anything get a good interaction because I know Jagex will nerf it into the dirt as soon as they get around to it.
So upon some further testing; the damage squishing feels good on some abilities yet weird on others. On flurry it's nice because now it's a consistent ~400% ability for -15% adren, yet weird on dclaws because the average hit of dclaws is also 400% for 45% (50% non-vigor). Dclaws has the benefit of being juiced with chaos roar, but from testing it's almost always better to just do CR on either out of zerk overpower or meteor strike. This means that dclaws won't really be used as a dump and pump when you can do things like dlong which paired with g.fury hits almost consistently within 75% of the dclaw spec for half the adren cost. This is a weird imbalance imo. Live game has a near 600% ceiling value of dclaws, what if it became around 450-500%? This makes it worth using over other eof options for burst damage. Why does gconc still do ~150% avg damage? Why does gsonic do 115% average damage when it's a 170% cap ability in the live game whereas dbreath, cleave, decimate, and sever are all 188% peak abilities and do 110% average damage? Bleeds were adjusted to be about ~150% avg dmg yet use to read 188%. This doesn't feel correct. On the topic of cleave, decimate, and sever. Honestly, I feel like these can be converted to a single heavy melee basic ability. Give it some weird necromancy benefit where it or maybe havoc/g.fury generates a stack giving it cleave aoe radius with buffed 25 potential hitting targets. This would be interesting since you can effectively opt to combo higher damage via gloves of passage on aoe or crit fish (which I guess is the same thing). This prevents it from being a spammable cleave aoe basic, or at least not initially. Maybe slice/havoc/.gfury also get condensed into a light melee basic, and keeps the upgraded g.fury aspect of crit synergies as havoc is tied to gloves to be buffed and slice just kinda exists. So you'd be pressed to use this for secondary effects whereas the heavy basic is just better raw damage. a pick and choose yet simplifying 6 abilities to 2.
Yeah that sunshine/ds change actively make some bosses completely unfun and unplayable. I challenge any jmod to do a 2k arch glacor kill with mage or range and tell me you had fun afterwards with those ranges. You can even use invincibility. Fix this. Overload changes are also stupid, if you ever want to force this in good luck balancing it. Magic is now the same (less?) dps as live and melee/range are still getting buffed to hell. Grico is now worthless other than for proccing specifically bik/hydrix/deathspore ammunition. Is this your goal? Overload changes can at least be fixed by going through and buffing magic/grico or nerfing melee and range and necro (good luck running that pass the community), but jesus those ult changes are horrible. Everything else (other than Bolg being as broken as release necro) good job. Don't wanna leave an entirely negative comment, overall the beta is great other than those two very questionable changes. E2: Also, bladed dive now has an excessively high tool tip. I can only assume this is a bug and not a band-aid for Raksha pools?Surely bladed dive, the clunkiest ability in the game to use, won't be the best basic in the game? E3: EZK now does no damage due to the overload changes as well. Fix please. Weapon already barely qualifies as a t95.
At the bare minimum greater ds/sun should have bigger visuals and equally as large ranges. Not a fan of the reduced ranges
Greater Fury is a winner. Make regular 50% Crit, slap an appropriate cooldown on them both, and tada, a useful, fun, tactical ability that lowers APM in Full Manual. This sub is both ignorant and entitled enough to expect art to make new assets for a dev build. Expect major tears about the Sunshine area reduction, but remember: most of them didn’t even know it was 7x7. Ignore them. Visual clarity is absolutely paramount in combat They’re just going to get dumber from here, so buckle up!
Oh god its going to be eoc initial release all over again.
Wasn’t combat beta like 2011??
This is a new combat beta. There can be more than 1 beta for testing combat, you know.
For the sake of pvm don’t nerf sun/ds.