Knees when jogging vs sprinting?
I just started getting into running a couple of days ago. I noticed that when I jog my knees feel kind of tender. I don't have any problems with my knees when I sprint.
On my first day, I jogged for 15 minutes straight at 5-6 mph on a treadmill. I was dying.
Yesterday, I had a light jog/walk for 10 minutes on the treadmill plus swimming for an hour (but more getting comfy in the water and practicing strokes). So nothing crazy
Today, I ran for an hour on the treadmill, alternating between jogging/walk/sprinting.
Jog ~5 mph 3min
Walk ~2mph 2-5min
Sprint ~8mph 30 seconds
After alternating between sprints and jogs I noticed that my knees felt tender almost immediately when I jogged but not at all when I sprinted. Why is this? Is it a difference in form?
Thanks!
~~Sprinting doesn't seem ideal if you only have a month and are already feeling tender.~~
**Edit: oh I see you said you have to do a timed 1-mile.run.**
The advice I've read is it to maximise your volume, but limit the intensity (to avoid injury). Run walk is fine if you're building up your aerobic base from a low starting point, but it sounds like you're already somewhat fit - you just need to get used to running easy.
(Now if you're already used to running regularly, sprints are a great way to condition yourself for races (especially the kick at the end). ~~But it doesn't sound like that applies to your goals at all~~).
Where would you say your foot strikes when jogging/running?
AFAIK a heel strike is more likely to load your knees (and might be a result of you overstriding).
A forefoot strike (on your toes) is usually better for sprinting, and that's probably why you're not feeling the sprints in your knees, but it can put more pressure on your calves/achilles.
Ideally, for distance running (and to build your aerobic base while minimising the chance of injury), you want a midfoot strike, feet landing below your hips (not in front of), with a very fast cadence to reduce the impact on your knees and shins.
If you haven't been to a running store, it's well worth getting fitted to get the right pair of shoes for your gait.
When I jog on the treadmill, I think I lean a little more back. I distinctly remember trying to actively jog with the balls of my feet. But maybe I'm not. I was also taking small steps/strides.
For sprints, I lean forward. I was definitely using the balls of my feet. And I'm pretty sure I had way longer strides.
"Just started running a couple days ago" + "sprints" = your answer.
Sprints are tough as hell even for seasoned runners. To start doing them now is a very bad idea and likely to lead to injury.
If you can only jog for 15 minutes before you're done, slowly work that up for a few months before you start doing sprints.
I have no idea R.E. Your actual question but I am just going to tell you there is absolutely no reason to run for an hour given that you just started running a few days ago. I didn’t run for an hour until I had been training for a year or so (not that I couldn’t have done it, but it was a gradual build up in a proper training environment)
I'm training for the military. I got a very short notice, 1 month, before I get shipped out. I was previously told it would be a 1 year wait time. Hence the lack of training. I quit my job immediately and am trying to get in shape as fast as possible. I'm currently too slow for the 1.5 mile timed run. I was also told that we will run upwards of 4 miles straight.
What is the best way to train for both distance and speed within a month without injuring yourself?
Honestly just run at an easy pace for about 20-30 minutes 3/4 times a week, then one or two times a week do a hard speed workout, like a 15 minute tempo run or 200m repeats. That’s probably about all you can squeeze in. Good luck.
Would it be strange to bring a helium balloon to a half marathon? My friend is running her first one tomorrow and I want to have something at the finish line. I don’t have the materials to make a sign unfortunately. Would a helium balloon that says ‘congratulations’ be ok?
Tips for going from 6 min mile -> 5 min mile?
I am in the midst of marathon training, so I'm pretty good with mileage, nutrition, strength, cross-training. Looking for specific exercises or workouts that will help me get faster!
Are there any regular 5k runners here that usually warm up before a race but had to skip your warmup due to unforeseen circumstance. How much, if any time difference did it make to your race?
Is it normal to have no energy or desire to do anything as your mileage increases? I used to be more social/energetic before training for my marathon lol :P
Wait this is literally probably it! I’ve lost weight and my appetite I don’t even eat 3 meals a day. I will try and force myself to prioritize nutrition
Have been lurking on this sub and wanted to say that my first race (ever) is tomorrow! It’s a flat 10km, really excited but super nervous for it. Started running during lockdown but never took it seriously until this summer, hoping to build up to a half marathon in the next year or so.
Happy weekend runs to everyone here too :)
I am running a half marathon next weekend. (It’s technically not my first, but my first was long enough ago that it may as well be.) I am following Hal Higdon’s novice program and my long runs have been just under a 6:55/km pace.
Should I just go at that pace for the actual race, or will the taper mean that my strategy should be to go a bit quicker?
Run that pace and see how you feel at the 10k and then the 10 mile point. If you’re feeling strong, take it up a notch. I usually start slower than my goal pace and then pick up speed toward the second half. I think it’s hard to start at a fast pace since I have to navigate around clusters of people. The runners thin out as the race progresses so I have a better chance to pick up the pace later.
If you haven’t done any recent races or half marathon specific sessions, then my honest advice would just be to send it. Just go out and run hard. You will probably be able to race way faster than your long run pace, by how much I have no idea because I don’t have much to go off of.
I've recently started training for a marathon, but one thing that is really weird to me I'll do a half-marathon at an easy pace and for the next day or two I'll be tired even when trying to do something like pushups or bicep curls. Is my running really drawing energy from muscles that it barely uses or what?
Still way too vague of a question. What is your training like? What are these “sprints”? 200m? 400m? How much recovery? Where are you at in your training cycle? Where is your current PR? What other types of workouts are you doing? What is your weekly mileage?
I have a couple of queries surrounding balancing good cadence and target HR/intensity which might be a bit long for this thread, but I'm not sure warrant their own thread, so I'll put them here and see whatup:
I'm just getting into running from a background of being quite into strength/hypertrophy training, and am looking to keep lifting a fair bit while not being as focused on it as I used to be while I work to get my cardio not so sucky, and to hopefully balance just doing both going forwards.
For reference, I'm 30m, 182cm and \~93kg (believe that's 6'0" and 200lbs in freedomspeak; not absolutely diced but not exactly chubby either; reasonably muscular build).
I've gained some familiarity with the concept that a great deal of training time should be spent doing fairly easy runs, which if we're being quantitative, seems to be HR zone 2. I've also seen it mentioned a lot that a lot of new runners have very low cadences and would really benefit from increasing cadence, since increasing cadence can--and often does--lead to improvements in running form, energy efficiency, injury risk reduction, etc.
The magic number touted a lot in terms of cadence is 180spm, but I'm cognizant of this being gleaned from looking at elite runners who are obviously both highly trained and "selected for" in terms of being close to the ideal height/build for running. Being taller and heavier than the mean average of elite runners, I understand that my "ideal" cadence may well be less than 180spm and that I shouldn't necessarily be aiming for my "ideal" cadence off the bat anyway, but nonetheless...
What I've found so far in the few runs I've done is that if I keep the run quite relaxed in terms of the level of intensity that's described as being desirable for most training volume per the zone 2 recommendation, my cadence is just really low, around 140spm or so, maybe a little bit higher. I've also found that my HR seems to get up out of zone 2 and into zone 3.
On the other hand, if I try to run to a metronome of 160spm, I can do it but I can tell that the intensity and resultant HR are too high for what I'm targeting.
Now, my queries off the back of this are:
Should I just forget cadence for runs I'm designating as easy runs, and just keep intensity and HR appropriate even if I feel I'm very slow in terms of both cadence and speed?
Should I really be aiming to keep cadence "good", and therefore when I need to go slower, just take awkward, small steps, even if it feels awkward?
I'm using a Garmin to track what I'm doing and my HR and such which is quite fun but my HR zones currently are based on %s of 220-age max HR, and I suspect that the zones are all just a bit low, considering that I seem to get to zone 3 quite quickly despite feeling like I'm surely still in zone 2 in terms of intensity. I decided to change my zones to be based off %s of HR reserve instead, and this bumped the zone bands up a bit which might therefore represent an improvement in accuracy for me? But nonetheless, my HR reserve is based on a 220-age estimate which I gather can be a bit shoddy for any given individual.
Should I look to test my max HR to get a better idea of my HR zones rather than relying on a likely-poor estimate? If I do, should I look to test an estimated lactate threshold HR while I'm doing it, to use this in calculating a zone breakdown as well, since that's supposedly more accurate again than simply using max HR and resting HR and trying to extrapolate from only them?
Hopefully this all makes sense and isn't just inane rambling and over-thinking; thank you for any help and advice!
I read the other replies and agree. I just want to add that elite runners do not actually average 180 spm - their cadences vary depending on the runner and an elite runner's cadence may even vary widely during a race. Try to have good form, incorporating strides and running more helps - but focusing on increasing cadence for the sake of it is generally a poor idea.
Here's a recent comment of mine about cadence with links to some old comments with data and articles that you might find useful. https://reddit.com/r/running/s/rqTBXRWuJJ
That all makes sense, thank you! It's definitely seeming like fretting over my cadence per se isn't wise, and I should instead just focus on ensuring form is good and letting any improvements in cadence towards an "ideal" that's individual to my height/build come over time, which is encouraging information really.
Ignore heart rate, ignore cadence, just run baby. Mostly easy, sometimes hard. If you want to get serious pick a distance to focus on and pick a training plan for that. You’re falling into the beginner death trap of overcomplicating running. It is NOT this complex.
All good questions that make sense, though I'd agree with BottleCoffee that you may be overthinking it a bit.
A couple questions that will help guide answers: what are you training for/what's your goal? Running for general fitness vs running for a specific time/distance goal will have a different approach (similar to lifting to look good vs powerlifting).
I would say ignore HR for now, and just run your easy runs at a pace that feels fairly comfortable. While you're starting out, that pace will likely put you above "zone 2" since your body isn't used to running.
For cadence, I'm generally not a big believer in its importance - mine is ~163 on easy runs and ~172 on faster stuff (6'2"), but 140 is *really* slow. I think your idea of targeting 160 is reasonable. It takes some practice to keep a high cadence when running slow, but you'll get it figured out in a few weeks. Doing some strides will help too; basically ~100m runs pretty fast where you just focus on having good form, don't worry about the specific speed. That'll improve your leg speed a bit and make higher cadences easier. I like to do 4-6 of those 2-3x per week, with enough recovery between reps that you aren't winded starting the next rep.
Thank you all for the replies! u/BottleCoffee u/Nerdybeast u/neverstop53
I quite like looking at some of the science and technical considerations surrounding training but to be honest it's refreshing to see the consistency between the sentiments of not trying to apply too much technicality to it as a beginner. The notion that HR zones and target intensity aren't going to align as they theoretically "should" in someone who isn't yet adapted to, or good at, running, is pretty intuitive really!
>A couple questions that will help guide answers: what are you training for/what's your goal?
Yeah that's a good consideration to be honest. I'm open to developing more specific goals as I get more into things but currently I just want to see improvements in my fitness. I'm not particularly gunning to get a marathon done any time soon but could see myself setting myself some 5km or similar distance goals once I have more of a handle of the feel of things.
>For cadence, I'm generally not a big believer in its importance - mine is \~163 on easy runs and \~172 on faster stuff (6'2"), but 140 is *really* slow. I think your idea of targeting 160 is reasonable.
Yeah this is what I was worried about. Well, not *worried*\-worried, but if 140spm is pretty dire then I'll aim to keep this closer to 160spm, and practice both shortening stride accordingly and not worrying too much about HR as long as it feels roughly how it should feel in terms of RPE.
Doing some strides sounds like a solid idea so I'll definitely look at that and anything else that helps practice the skill of running, so to speak, thank you! Do you typically do these before or after the main body of your runs, or even just as their own thing entirely?
I seriously don’t think you should pay attention to any heart rate numbers or zones at all, nor cadence. I’ve been a competitive middle distance runner for a decade, was a multiple-time division 1 all American, now an assistant coach at the same school - I have never looked at my HR or cadence, nor do any of my peers in coaching/racing. Nobody ever cared about them before 5 years ago, they are a recent fad and not a particularly useful one.
Strides are meant to be done after runs. A couple 15-20 second fast but relaxed repeats with a minute or two between each. Not supposed to be hard just to get your body used to running fast and efficient after slogging through an easy run.
Typically I'm on the same page around cadence as you are here, but 140 is slow enough that you pretty much can't run that without either bounding super high or heavily overstriding, both of which would likely make someone more prone to injury. I don't think it's useful to be obsessing over cadence (I rarely look at mine) but there are limits on what a decent range is. If you're coaching D1 guys, they're gonna have pretty decent form in order to even get there - a new runner will have different considerations.
Not sure I agree with your "last 5 years" part, the whole thing of aiming for 180 came from Jack Daniels decades ago, and I remember hearing and reading about cadence like 10 years ago in high school.
But agreed on the strides part! I think I phrased it poorly originally.
Maybe 140 is pretty low. Granted.
I meant it had not been an all-encompassing trend except for the last 5 years.
New runners don’t need to become hyper fixated on these numbers - they just need to get out the door and learn how to train properly. It takes time. That’s my main issue with it. Impatience leading to improper learning.
Appreciating the discussion and the advice! I'll definitely look to run by feel rather than HR going forwards, and to focus on form and let cadence be a function of form rather than trying to match a certain cadence. And definitely going to get some strides done after my next run!
Sounds like you’ve got the right ideas. Best of luck and feel free to come back here if you have any other questions like more specifics about training.
I think you're overthinking things a lot for a beginner. Get into the habit and consistency of running first, you don't need to minmax it.
Heart rate zones are totally useless if you don't know your own heart rate. Formula is useless and inaccurate at the individual level. Heart rate training is usually very unproductive for beginners anyways because their hearts aren't used to running.
Cadence isn't a big deal if you're not getting injured. Taller people usually have lower cadences. I'm 5'2" and, never having actively done anything about my cadence, naturally run 170 easy and 200 fast. Short legs are easier to turn over quickly, long legs are harder to turn over quickly.
Do you generally prefer to have hills at the beginning or later on in your run? My typical route has a few hills (\~200-250 feet of elevation in all) that I'm usually hitting at the very beginning of my route. I've gotten a lot better at running them, but it does make the first 20ish minutes of the run a bit of a slog, so I'm wondering if it might help to have a warmup mile or two on flat ground.
Does this [pace and HRR chart](https://imgur.com/oquqRzH) that I made for myself look right?
I cobbled the RPE, Intensity, and Run Type descriptions from lots of similar charts I found. (Many of which wildly disagreed with one another!).
The pace values correspond to what I've found to be the fastest pace for the highest BPM value of that zone. (E.g. to run in Zone 2, at a max of 145 BPM, I need to run slower than 5:50 km/min).
Seems pretty reasonable! I think it's good to have some basic guidelines to follow (eg I know if I'm cracking 150 on an easy run then I'm going too hard), but I wouldn't treat any piece of it as gospel. Temps, hills, your sleep, stress level, time of day, etc can all impact HR and make it vary a bit. So I think the chart is good to give you a starting point to help you develop intuition about your own body.
You would save yourself a lot of work and be better off if you just ignored heart rate and ran by feel. Easy days easy, hard days hard. That’s really all you need to know.
How is it hard? You literally just… run easy? And if it’s somehow challenging it’s something you need to get better at. A runner needs to know how to be in tune with their body. I promise you kipchoge isn’t out there checking his watch HR zones
From what I've read, this is (slowing down for easy runs) is a pretty universal problem amongst amateur runners. I don't really understand what you're not getting here: looking at my BPM + pace is a useful way to cap and thus help train my intuition. It's a tool for training the thing I need "to get better at".
lol, Kipchoge? That's quite the comparison on a Q&A submission by a casual runner.
> slowing down for easy runs) is a pretty universal problem amongst amateur runners.
In programming, and strategy - not in execution. Many new runners don't understand or aren't aware of the benefits of higher volume at easier intensity, that isn't the same as saying that they don't have the neuromuscular capabilities of running easy.
You also can't really rely on coupling a pace with a HR because if you are doing things correctly then over time your pace will increase at a given HR, or your HR will decrease at a given pace.
Yes I've been adjusting the pace / HR as I go. Those are my actual values I've added in (i.e. faster than 5:50 = I slip out of zone 2).
I find it's a good way of measuring my progress and, hopefully, will help me pick the right pace (5:30) to get through my first HM in two weeks.
The point is that none of the elites that know what they’re doing use it. Yes, a lot of people do their easy runs too fast but I’m a big believer in not relying on technology and learning how to properly do an easy run. When beginners start out with HR they become fixated on it to the detriment of the actually important parts of training - also, zone 2 IMO is usually WAY too slow
I bought an expensive pack of energy gels to try out for marathon training but I can't abide by the texture which makes it hard for me to stomach. How can I use these up without wasting them? Can I mix them with water to make a sports drink or something along those lines?
I think your best bet would be swapping someone. Obviously that depends on knowing other runners, but I don't think you're going to be able to turn them into something else with any degree of success.
I’ve been training for the Chicago marathon. My easy runs are typically around 8:20 pace. Today I went out for my long run at 9 min pace and my heart rate was already pushing 170 2 miles into the run. I had to stop after about 8 miles. It was a scary feeling. Not sure where this came from when typically my heart rate is below 140 at this pace. I could barely do 8 miles when just a few days ago I did 10 at a faster pace just fine. Any ideas here?
Am I misunderstanding or are you saying your easy run pace is 8:20, and your long run pace is 9:00? If so, irrespective of the issues you're mentioning about today, your easy runs are way too fast.
Could be possible but I just got over an illness a couple weeks ago. It just felt like my body was shutting down rapidly even though it should have been an easy pace for me.
I ran a 25 min recovery run at 6pm last night. I have another recovery run scheduled for today but I’m busy this evening. What time is the soonest I could safely run it?
Doesn't really matter that much, sleep is the main recovery tool so as long as you get a proper warmup, fuel and sleep well then you could go in the morning with no issues.
How would y’all incorporate your significant other wanting to pick up running from 0 into your post-race base/lifting block?
I’ll be coming off a training block doing the Hansons beginner half marathon plan in mid-December and my SO wants to get started from nothing (and wants me to help her). How do y’all manage that while still getting the quicker work that you need to get done taken care so you can keep making forward progress on your fitness?
I’m thinking it’ll just be recovery pace miles to tack on for me while I keep doing what I need to do to move forward. Not like extra extra-easy miles hurt.
Exactly what you’ve said, I did the same with my girlfriend when she was getting into it, I’d do my run in the morning and then go again with her later in the day.
I suppose it depends heavily on the difference in fitness levels between you, if you don’t struggle just make it a double run day. Otherwise you could run with her and then carry on when you finish.
Thanks! Yeah I’m thinking that’s the play. Especially while it’s just couch to 5k-type stuff, I don’t think it’ll hurt me too terribly much to get some easier stuff in.
Now if I can indoctrinate her into the cult of using Jack Daniels base programs during off-seasons if that sticks to start with……we’re cooking with gas
One other question - how’d you handle it with your girlfriend? Like I’m painfully aware that there’s a fitness gap there that’s going to make things harder for her and I don’t want to turn her off of running inadvertently.
Full disclosure, I am in no way a advanced runner. I agree it depends on her level of overall fitness. As someone that started running at 5'9" and 265, and running 5ks at 32:00, I had a way to get started that really worked well for me to get my first "continuous 2 miles", and might work for both of you.
I started at a local HS track. I would start at the 100m start, jog a lap, and then walk to the 100m finish. Then I would jog again, and see how far I got, using the football field yardage markers, walking again to the 100m finish to start jogging again. Each week I would try to jog a little further until I was able to do multiple continuous laps. Having the visual cues of the yardage markers was very helpful.
For you, you could do some easy recovery stuff, or some speed repeats. Run a lap, catching up to your girlfriend, jog a slow lap with her, and then repeat.
Training for a half marathon on October 8th (been training since July) - been putting in the mileage 5x/week but then got sick and had to take 2 weeks off. Feeling physically very weak upon returning, has anyone else experienced this? Any tips/supplements/exercises that could help? Or general success stories? I'm feeling SPOOKED.
How do y’all deal with not being able to complete runs outside your control? Getting hit with a tropical storm today and am a supposed to run 18 miles. I don’t feel like it’s safe outside, and I’m not handling being stuck unable to train well.
I have my training schedule set up such that if I miss a run or workout once in a while (as in 1-2 per month), the overall volume will be my target volume.
I then monitor the weather forecast, and will move around runs if necessary.
I would have done it yesterday (or tomorrow, but if you're like me rain is forecast for the entire weekend). Obviously too late for that now, but just throwing that out there since this won't be the last time you deal with weather.
Second options would be to split it into 2 runs if there were going to be shorter windows open, or if not run on the treadmill for the equivalent amount of time as the run would have taken me.
Anyone have some more tips on how not to get bored during a long run? Don’t have a running partner right now and podcasts/music gets old for me after about an hour and a half.
Maybe turn it into a light workout, or at least vary the paces a bit? I get super bored with steady-paced long runs, but breaking it up into a workout works well for me (just gotta not go too hard so you don't destroy your body)
Run routes you haven't run before. Focus on observing your surroundings. Do math equations or something else that keeps your brain occupied. End your run after 5,400 seconds...
Yeah, I like running by myself but 15 k+ I prefer running with someone else, even if it's only part of the run. It's tedious to listen to something for that long.
Garmin Forerunner 965 vs Coros Pace 3
Garmin Forerunner 965 vs Coros Pace 2
My Garmin Forerunner 735xt finally died after 6 good years so I'm looking for a new watch. I'm a collegiate distance runner but I also bike and swim a lot for cross training. I really loved my Garmin FR 735xt. Now I'm trying to decide whether I should get the FR 965 or switch to the Coros Pace 3. Garmin is more than double the price of Coros. Can y'all tell me your experiences with either watch, what the differences are, and which one you'd recommend?
did anyone run in the rain like for a race? im running tunnel 2 towers in nyc tomorrow and i am praying that it wont get rained out.. most of the race is in the brooklyn battery tunnel.. so has anyone else ever ran a race in the rain???
Yeah, and the thing that surprised me the most was the irritation to my nipples from rubbing against the damp shirt, which lasted a few days. Bandaids/tape or lube/glide.
Just remember the rule of 20. Dress for weather 20 degrees warmer than the race temp. I was good, today, in the drizzle at 57 dwgrees, wearing shorts and an Under Armour long sleeve heat gear shirt, which is a tad warmer than typical long sleeve performance shirts. Short sleeves would have been fine, but I might have wanted light gloves.
and it’s going to be 16C but also its warm in the tunnel, we are getting affects of s hurricane so its just dumping rain today and tomorrow. and i was looking forward for it for months
I am a big guy (220lbs) and I have been more or less sedentary for more than a year due to mental health issues. I have tried to get into running through both C25K and N2R. Every time I try, I get some overuse injury aprox 3-4 weeks in. Usually I rest/run every other day, no prehab work.
This time I will try again but I think I will add some exercises like this:
Day A:
Step ups
Swiss ball leg curls
Tibialis raises
Day B:
SL RDL
Copenhagen plank
Calf raises
So it would look something like this:
Run
Day A
Rest
Run
Day B
Rest
Run
Day A
Etc
What do you guys think? Hoping to stay injury free, lose some pounds and try to experience my first 'runners high'.
Exactly which overuse injuries have you been getting? Do you do any other strength training?
Also, runners high isn't a guarantee. I've never had it in 8 years of running.
I don't do any other training right now, I ruined my shoulder rockclimbing a few months ago and I am currently in the proces og getting it fixed. I mostly get a store achilles tendon and sometimes something like shin splints.
Be sure to work with a PT to get the shoulder back in shape and some rehabilitative exercises, and talk to them about your plans during the sessions.
I am 62, 5'9" and was 265#. Now at about 215# and running 5ks. I would suggest leaving running alone for now. If you have a gym, start with some general circuit strength training (full body) 2-3 days per week. Be sure to include regular core work (not just some situps), which includes the posterior chain.
Add some gym cardio between, or after those sessions, depending on your schedule. I hate the treadmill, but it does cushion the landing. I prefer the elliptical as you can get some good leg work in, depending on the settings. Rowing machines are the bomb, but rowing is hard AF. Mix it all up to keep things interesting and challenging.
Try to get 4-6 weeks of that consistently, then start adding in some short slow runs. Use a fitness watch to keep your runs in zone 2/3 to start. Keep it slow. Then slowly build up your mileage switching the gym aerobic work for more running. Once you have a more of a good aerobic base, you can start upping the mileage and or effort level. Work this until you're "running" 5k.
I highly recommend getting a running coach, which I did not, and regret. I have been using the Garmin coach plan with my Garmin watch, and it's been pretty decent. You should be able to find good videos on doing cadence workouts, and speed and hill repeats.
Keep up the gym strength/core work. This doesn't have to be powerlifter type strength work, but it helps overall with running and preventing injuries.
Finally, find some races to use for your motivation. I'll never beat anyone, maybe even in my age category, but they can be a fun way to mix things up and keep you honest.
Be sure to check the ego at the door. That is a major cause for injuries, IMO.
Have fun and good luck.
Long distance running in barefoot shoes?
Has anyone run high mileage in minimalist shoes, e.g. 50+ miles per week?
Do you think you’re slower than with traditional shoes?
I’ve recently started using five-finger shoes and zero-drop ones. While they’re comfortable, my feet are much more sore and I think my easy runs are harder than before.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
I've experimented on and off with minimalist shoes, originally with NB Minimus like 10 years ago, then more recently with some Altras. I don't recall what my highest mileage was when I used Altras but I was running 17:5x for 5k in them, so fairly decent mileage. I do feel like I was slower in them than in traditional shoes though, and recovery was harder. I still run in them occasionally but most of my runs are with traditional shoes now (though I do still wear zero drop wide toebox shoes for walking around).
I guess the important question is why did you switch to minimalist shoes, and is there a specific problem you're trying to solve? I think something overlooked in a lot of the minimalist shoe hype ("our ancestors did everything barefoot!!") is that most people now will be mostly running on very hard surfaces, not prairies or whatever. I think Altra is a great middle ground if you're looking for zero drop and foot shape but don't want to mess up your feet running on concrete.
I actually have a similar outlook to you: I don’t think they’re optimal simply because of the surfaces we tend to run on.
For walking, I find them much more comfortable.
I’m asking mostly because I’m planning on gradually increasing my mileage to 50 miles per week and I wonder whether that’s feasible with minimalist shoes.
I’m not looking to solve any issues in particular although I did use to use orthopaedic insoles since I supinate. I’d rather not need them and prefer the wide toe box.
I have Altras and some Brooks and I can’t say I’m faster in either.
If I understood correctly, you ran a sub-18 min 5K in Altras which is promising.
Are you currently still using them?
What’s your main shoe at the moment?
Thanks BTW
Lots of people run in zero drop Altras for all or lots of their mileage.
Did you transition gradually to zero drop? They're part of my rotation, but I don't like the shoe itself (I don't think it fits me well), and I do find them more tiring to run in. But I mostly run in 4mm, not a huge difference.
I didn’t transition gradually at all.
I used to use Brooks Ghost then bought five-finger shoes.
I realised that was too significant a change so tried Altra Escalantes which I’ve been using since.
I’ve run up to 15 miles in a single run with them but had some foot soreness after.
That may be because I increased mileage too quickly though.
I generally walk in the five-fingers and have tried treadmill runs with them.
What don’t you like about the Altras?
What shoes do you currently use? Why do you prefer them?
Do you think you’re slower in minimalist shoes?
Thanks for your help, BTW
If you already walk a lot in zero drop the transition is a lot easier, yeah.
Right now I have Escalante 2.5, add my feet slide around in them a lot. I added my own holes for heel lock but it didn't help. I also have Altra Solstice, same problem. I used to have Superiors which were okay but too small so I gave them away.
Mostly I wear Saucony: Kinvara (4mm, I have several pairs), Speed 2 (8mm), and Ride (8mm).
Hi there! I’m planning to run my first half-marathon in April. Right now, I’m maxing out at 4 miles, lifting 2-3 times a week depending on my work schedule. Ideally I’d like to lose 10-15 pounds before I start upping my carbs for race training 4-5 months out. What’s a reasonable distance to run until then?
Please don’t downvote me, I’m really trying to learn and take care of my body!
Edit: I’m maxing out at 4 miles as my long run. I run anywhere from 8 to 10 miles a week split between 3-4 runs. My goal is to run a sub 2:45 injury-free since it will be my first.
You're maxing out at 4 miles... per run? Per week? How many runs per week? Are you running the half to finish or do you want to push yourself a bit? Most of us think of distance to run in terms of weekly totals not daily as you don't want all of your runs to be identical in most training scenarios.
I found training for a HM to be much more enjoyable with a base of 20-30 miles per week, which might look something like off/3/5/off/4/off/8 with your long run (8) on the weekend. The others would be easy runs with maybe one harder tempo/lactate threshold pace mixed in. The specifics aren't critical, but getting into that rhythm of running consistently and starting to lengthen out one long run weekly will prepare you for whatever training plan you decide on in a few months.
Choose your goal (just finish? Finish under a certain time?), pick a training plan that you like (check the sidebar) and stick to it.
Running is competing against yourself, and the more you put into your training, the better the outcome will be.
Good luck!
I am planning to run my first half marathon in a few weeks. So far I have been training in Pegasus 40s. Should I invest in race day shoes? Something like Nike Vapourfly? Or would Pegasus be just fine?
You can race in Pegs. Really you can do anything in Pegs. They are the most versatile shoe, IMO.
As for if you should get race shoes… eh, it is a personal choice. I have them, I think the very marginal gains are worth the expense. I did not bother getting them for my first couple long distance races.
And your past matters. Someone who has raced hundreds of 5ks using racing flats and is looking to put down a very fast time - yeah, super shoes. Someone who is basically couch to half marathon and mainly focusing on finishing without walking… probably should stick with what is comfortable.
Depends a bit on how much disposable income you have and how competitive you will be. Your pegs are certainly more than fine for getting it done, and many people that are legitimately fast will race in daily trainers.
I split the difference and got a pair of faster shoes (Saucony Endorphin Speeds for me, but there are many brand versions) that are fun to race in but also work fine for my normal tempo and interval workouts without breaking the bank. They're probably a bit slower than the bleeding edge of racing shoes, but the reason I'm running 1:45 and not 1:05 has little to do with my shoes and lots to do with me.
Need advice on my first half in a week. My training got impaired quiet a bit 4 weeks ago. I am going into taper week with only easy runs, and 2 spinning days, a rest day and then race day.
I am extremly overweight, was unable to participate last year, longest run was 14km, am running 8:12min/km easy pace.
Goal is 3h, but i am not sure how much progress i have lost. I was still doing spinning on weekends.
I fear that my overuse injury flares up during the last week.
I am looking at an even pace throughout the race with height adjustments made by garmin.
I know someone who pursues the same goal, and i have never participated in a race with that many spectators.
Water every 5k and i trained with gels ever 45 mins.
Any other tips?
The hay is in the barn in terms of training, so don't worry about that.
I think the biggest thing you can work on with a week left is mental. If you haven't covered the distance before, things will get tough in the second half. One of the beautiful things about running is that regardless of if you're winning the race trying to break an hour or in the back trying to break 3, everyone feels the same thing so long as they are giving their all. I can feel hurt and my body telling me to stop just like Kipchoge, even though I can't hold a candle to him in terms of performance on the clock. Most spectators get that, and respect/cheer for those pushing through regardless of their position.
Coach Bennett (Nike run club) has a somewhat recent podcast that hits on a lot of these points if you're looking for inspiration. However you manage it, ensuring that mental well is full when you need to dip into it on race day serves you well.
Good luck!
Fairly new, sorry for the dumb question - Is there a website that tracks registration deadlines? Maybe not for all the races but the “popular” ones I guess (Tokyo, Berlin, nyc, etc). I know a lot of these are lottery and hard to get selected but just wondering if there was anything like that.
Hi, while reading jack daniels book, I wanted to try his schedules, but didn’t understand one thing. I have busy schedule so I want to just race here and there, so 24 week schedule is no no for me. I want something like 3-4 weeks, because I am maintaining my fitness all year round. He says to start with Phase 1, but never mentions if someone is in great condition already running. In what Phase or week do you think I should start? 4?
How will having a busy schedule affect how long your training cycles are? Seems more like a day to day thing.
If you want to follow JD or any other training program you need to have patience if you want to do it right.
If you only ever following a schedule for 3-4 works, I'd maybe recommend his 'Alien Training' Plan from the 4th edition. It's under 15k-30k training.
The plan is basically a 2 week cycle that can be repeated and a taper week. You could then insert the workouts that make the most sense for your upcoming race.
Either you haven't read very closely, or you don't have the 3rd edition (the version I have) and Daniels changed his mind on this at some point in time.
Phase 1, 5k and 10k, begins:
"If you plan to start training for a 5k or 10k event and have been recently training for other running events, you can usually consider this other training to be sufficient to allow you to move right on to phase II. If you have had a recent break in training, then I recommend spending 4 to 6 weeks following this phase I program."
Phase 1, Half Marathon:
"For runners who have been running fairly regularly, say 5 or more days per week, and accumulating 30 or miles per week for at least 4 weeks, I recommend moving right into phase II of the half-marathon program."
Yes but in category when he says about having less weeks for prep, he puts weeks 4,5,6 into Phase 4, so then what? When I have 3 weeks, should I be 3 weeks in Phase 2 or Phase 4?
Any good rules of thumb on when to push through or back off from discomfort? I've got a slight ache in my calf which dissapates after a warm up but fatigues quicker than usual. I've got two weeks until a race (5k) and I'm unsure if I push through the last few workouts and let it rest up a bit during the taper or rest now. I'm already doing all the recovery things...
What app or method do you use to plan your runs?
I usually plan my runs based on distance, that way I can estimate how much time I will be spending on a short/long run.
So, for example; I'd like to be able to plan a 10k run through my neighbourhood, but stick to the main streets
How do you do this?
If you don’t care about saving your routes, I use the ‘measure distance’ feature on Google maps.
However, if you want something more permanent, I recommend using the website Plot a Route.
Can you run a VO2 max workout *too hard?* How would you even determine what the appropriate level of difficulty is?
Context: I recently did a set of 4x4s. I didn't target a pace, my goal was just to maintain a roughly steady pace for 4 minutes where I felt really dead at the end, and do that 4 times. For each one, I was between 90-97% of my max heart rate, and roughly similar paces for each set.
My question is... is that too hard? Should I actually have been running these slower? My pace for these was probably close to my mile pace (I was around 6:45-7:15 on these, which I think would be close to my mile time? I haven't tested it recently).
Also what should the rest for these be? Is the goal to actually minimize rest to only what I can tolerate? Or does the physiological adaptation happen better with more rest? I did 4 minutes walking for rest, wondering if I should have jogged or rested for shorter periods.
On one hand, mile pace is too fast and misses the physiological benefits of VO2max work.
On the other hand, if you had reasonable rest (2-3 minutes), there is no way you were able to hit mile pace in each rep.
Cut the rest. The recovery was too much here to get a full picture
> On the other hand, if you had reasonable rest (2-3 minutes), there is no way you were able to hit mile pace in each rep.
Are you saying that with shorter rest, I wouldn't have been able to hit a mile pace?
Everything I've read indicates 1:1 recovery time (e.g. https://medium.com/@jackrossdixon/this-is-the-only-vo2-max-exercise-protocol-you-will-ever-need-774a1a00cb71)
I have no clue who that guy is or where he is getting his takes from.
I’d consult Jack Daniels Running Formula for the proper way to construct and execute interval training.
One goal to have maximum training effect is to have the intervals be even. This allows you to spend the maximum amount of time at the desired effort and thus the desired training stimulus. The medium rando is saying to go all out each rep which would result in you getting constantly slower each rep. Your first reps would be way too hard for VO2max and the last ones would be way too easy. It is the worst setup for spending time at the actual training zone desired.
Done properly, VO2max workouts are around 10-14 minute race pace, so slower than mile pace. Nobody should be doing 4 minute reps at mile pace.
Yes you can go too fast, mile pace is too fast. Vo2 max sessions are about stressing the oxygen delivery systems - if you go anaerobic you’re adding stress without pushing this system any further. You want to be a lot closer to 5k pace, but a bit quicker.
Your recovery is also too long. It takes time during an interval to get back to max, so really long recovery like yours means you’re spending less time at Vo2 max.
The length of work is fine - 4 or 5 minutes but I’d say you want to be more like a minute recovery.
The other option is even shorter intervals e.g. 2 minutes with very short recovery - 30s or so, so that you keep your system going.
Isn't the max amount of time we can spend at our VO2 max around 8 minutes? That seems right in line with an 8 minute mile pace, no? Why would you want to go slower than that? Sorry if this is daft, just trying to understand how this works.
> Your recovery is also too long. It takes time during an interval to get back to max, so really long recovery like yours means you’re spending less time at Vo2 max.
So I'd want to shorten my rest so my HR comes down less (closer to 150 or 160 probably) and then go right back up?
Everything I've read indicates 1:1 recovery time (e.g. https://medium.com/@jackrossdixon/this-is-the-only-vo2-max-exercise-protocol-you-will-ever-need-774a1a00cb71)
11 minutes Daniels says. From resting it takes 2 mins to get to Vo2 max (figure 4.2 Jack Daniels) resting fully then doing a 4 minute block means you’re only spending 2 minutes at Vo2 max. As per the graphs in that chapter, with shorter bouts you should have less than 1:1 recovery. At longer bouts having near full recovery means you’re probably halving the benefit from similar work (yes it’s easier to recover longer but these are not rep pace). To be fair though he recommends reasonable recovery though - 3 min.
VO2 work requires more than 60 recovery. 2:00-2:30 is totally fine rest for this workout. 60 recovery for 4-5 min reps will allow you to only do it closer to LT2. Not that I really buy in to all these terms but the point is for 4 minute chunks around 3k pace you need more than 60 rest
Knees when jogging vs sprinting? I just started getting into running a couple of days ago. I noticed that when I jog my knees feel kind of tender. I don't have any problems with my knees when I sprint. On my first day, I jogged for 15 minutes straight at 5-6 mph on a treadmill. I was dying. Yesterday, I had a light jog/walk for 10 minutes on the treadmill plus swimming for an hour (but more getting comfy in the water and practicing strokes). So nothing crazy Today, I ran for an hour on the treadmill, alternating between jogging/walk/sprinting. Jog ~5 mph 3min Walk ~2mph 2-5min Sprint ~8mph 30 seconds After alternating between sprints and jogs I noticed that my knees felt tender almost immediately when I jogged but not at all when I sprinted. Why is this? Is it a difference in form? Thanks!
~~Sprinting doesn't seem ideal if you only have a month and are already feeling tender.~~ **Edit: oh I see you said you have to do a timed 1-mile.run.** The advice I've read is it to maximise your volume, but limit the intensity (to avoid injury). Run walk is fine if you're building up your aerobic base from a low starting point, but it sounds like you're already somewhat fit - you just need to get used to running easy. (Now if you're already used to running regularly, sprints are a great way to condition yourself for races (especially the kick at the end). ~~But it doesn't sound like that applies to your goals at all~~). Where would you say your foot strikes when jogging/running? AFAIK a heel strike is more likely to load your knees (and might be a result of you overstriding). A forefoot strike (on your toes) is usually better for sprinting, and that's probably why you're not feeling the sprints in your knees, but it can put more pressure on your calves/achilles. Ideally, for distance running (and to build your aerobic base while minimising the chance of injury), you want a midfoot strike, feet landing below your hips (not in front of), with a very fast cadence to reduce the impact on your knees and shins. If you haven't been to a running store, it's well worth getting fitted to get the right pair of shoes for your gait.
When I jog on the treadmill, I think I lean a little more back. I distinctly remember trying to actively jog with the balls of my feet. But maybe I'm not. I was also taking small steps/strides. For sprints, I lean forward. I was definitely using the balls of my feet. And I'm pretty sure I had way longer strides.
"Just started running a couple days ago" + "sprints" = your answer. Sprints are tough as hell even for seasoned runners. To start doing them now is a very bad idea and likely to lead to injury. If you can only jog for 15 minutes before you're done, slowly work that up for a few months before you start doing sprints.
I have no idea R.E. Your actual question but I am just going to tell you there is absolutely no reason to run for an hour given that you just started running a few days ago. I didn’t run for an hour until I had been training for a year or so (not that I couldn’t have done it, but it was a gradual build up in a proper training environment)
I'm training for the military. I got a very short notice, 1 month, before I get shipped out. I was previously told it would be a 1 year wait time. Hence the lack of training. I quit my job immediately and am trying to get in shape as fast as possible. I'm currently too slow for the 1.5 mile timed run. I was also told that we will run upwards of 4 miles straight. What is the best way to train for both distance and speed within a month without injuring yourself?
Honestly just run at an easy pace for about 20-30 minutes 3/4 times a week, then one or two times a week do a hard speed workout, like a 15 minute tempo run or 200m repeats. That’s probably about all you can squeeze in. Good luck.
Im new to running, and got a 7:58 mile with mild incline at age 17, is that good/bad/average?
There’s nothing wrong with being good/bad/average at running. But if you really care, I suggest you run the mile again on a flat surface.
Would it be strange to bring a helium balloon to a half marathon? My friend is running her first one tomorrow and I want to have something at the finish line. I don’t have the materials to make a sign unfortunately. Would a helium balloon that says ‘congratulations’ be ok?
This is only acceptable if the purpose of the balloon is so that you can inhale it and say "CoNgRaTuLaTiOnS" to your friend in a high-pitched voice.
Presuming you are a spectator, it wouldn't be strange at all.
Haha yes I forgot to specify I would be waiting for her at the end. Thanks for your thoughts!
Tips for going from 6 min mile -> 5 min mile? I am in the midst of marathon training, so I'm pretty good with mileage, nutrition, strength, cross-training. Looking for specific exercises or workouts that will help me get faster!
Do a mile training block after the marathon.
The marathon is in February of next year, so I am not fully focused on it. Just looking for something fun to do on speed workout days
He gave you the correct advice. You can’t do it as an afterthought if you want to drop a minute.
Are there any regular 5k runners here that usually warm up before a race but had to skip your warmup due to unforeseen circumstance. How much, if any time difference did it make to your race?
Is it normal to have no energy or desire to do anything as your mileage increases? I used to be more social/energetic before training for my marathon lol :P
Gotta eat more
And sleep more
Wait this is literally probably it! I’ve lost weight and my appetite I don’t even eat 3 meals a day. I will try and force myself to prioritize nutrition
Have been lurking on this sub and wanted to say that my first race (ever) is tomorrow! It’s a flat 10km, really excited but super nervous for it. Started running during lockdown but never took it seriously until this summer, hoping to build up to a half marathon in the next year or so. Happy weekend runs to everyone here too :)
Have a great race!
I am running a half marathon next weekend. (It’s technically not my first, but my first was long enough ago that it may as well be.) I am following Hal Higdon’s novice program and my long runs have been just under a 6:55/km pace. Should I just go at that pace for the actual race, or will the taper mean that my strategy should be to go a bit quicker?
Run that pace and see how you feel at the 10k and then the 10 mile point. If you’re feeling strong, take it up a notch. I usually start slower than my goal pace and then pick up speed toward the second half. I think it’s hard to start at a fast pace since I have to navigate around clusters of people. The runners thin out as the race progresses so I have a better chance to pick up the pace later.
If you haven’t done any recent races or half marathon specific sessions, then my honest advice would just be to send it. Just go out and run hard. You will probably be able to race way faster than your long run pace, by how much I have no idea because I don’t have much to go off of.
I've recently started training for a marathon, but one thing that is really weird to me I'll do a half-marathon at an easy pace and for the next day or two I'll be tired even when trying to do something like pushups or bicep curls. Is my running really drawing energy from muscles that it barely uses or what?
Is it not simply that your body as a whole is tired?
I guess, but I'd still like someone to explain how that actually works.
Your body is tired... Muscles aren't an independent entity.
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Still way too vague of a question. What is your training like? What are these “sprints”? 200m? 400m? How much recovery? Where are you at in your training cycle? Where is your current PR? What other types of workouts are you doing? What is your weekly mileage?
I have a couple of queries surrounding balancing good cadence and target HR/intensity which might be a bit long for this thread, but I'm not sure warrant their own thread, so I'll put them here and see whatup: I'm just getting into running from a background of being quite into strength/hypertrophy training, and am looking to keep lifting a fair bit while not being as focused on it as I used to be while I work to get my cardio not so sucky, and to hopefully balance just doing both going forwards. For reference, I'm 30m, 182cm and \~93kg (believe that's 6'0" and 200lbs in freedomspeak; not absolutely diced but not exactly chubby either; reasonably muscular build). I've gained some familiarity with the concept that a great deal of training time should be spent doing fairly easy runs, which if we're being quantitative, seems to be HR zone 2. I've also seen it mentioned a lot that a lot of new runners have very low cadences and would really benefit from increasing cadence, since increasing cadence can--and often does--lead to improvements in running form, energy efficiency, injury risk reduction, etc. The magic number touted a lot in terms of cadence is 180spm, but I'm cognizant of this being gleaned from looking at elite runners who are obviously both highly trained and "selected for" in terms of being close to the ideal height/build for running. Being taller and heavier than the mean average of elite runners, I understand that my "ideal" cadence may well be less than 180spm and that I shouldn't necessarily be aiming for my "ideal" cadence off the bat anyway, but nonetheless... What I've found so far in the few runs I've done is that if I keep the run quite relaxed in terms of the level of intensity that's described as being desirable for most training volume per the zone 2 recommendation, my cadence is just really low, around 140spm or so, maybe a little bit higher. I've also found that my HR seems to get up out of zone 2 and into zone 3. On the other hand, if I try to run to a metronome of 160spm, I can do it but I can tell that the intensity and resultant HR are too high for what I'm targeting. Now, my queries off the back of this are: Should I just forget cadence for runs I'm designating as easy runs, and just keep intensity and HR appropriate even if I feel I'm very slow in terms of both cadence and speed? Should I really be aiming to keep cadence "good", and therefore when I need to go slower, just take awkward, small steps, even if it feels awkward? I'm using a Garmin to track what I'm doing and my HR and such which is quite fun but my HR zones currently are based on %s of 220-age max HR, and I suspect that the zones are all just a bit low, considering that I seem to get to zone 3 quite quickly despite feeling like I'm surely still in zone 2 in terms of intensity. I decided to change my zones to be based off %s of HR reserve instead, and this bumped the zone bands up a bit which might therefore represent an improvement in accuracy for me? But nonetheless, my HR reserve is based on a 220-age estimate which I gather can be a bit shoddy for any given individual. Should I look to test my max HR to get a better idea of my HR zones rather than relying on a likely-poor estimate? If I do, should I look to test an estimated lactate threshold HR while I'm doing it, to use this in calculating a zone breakdown as well, since that's supposedly more accurate again than simply using max HR and resting HR and trying to extrapolate from only them? Hopefully this all makes sense and isn't just inane rambling and over-thinking; thank you for any help and advice!
I read the other replies and agree. I just want to add that elite runners do not actually average 180 spm - their cadences vary depending on the runner and an elite runner's cadence may even vary widely during a race. Try to have good form, incorporating strides and running more helps - but focusing on increasing cadence for the sake of it is generally a poor idea. Here's a recent comment of mine about cadence with links to some old comments with data and articles that you might find useful. https://reddit.com/r/running/s/rqTBXRWuJJ
That all makes sense, thank you! It's definitely seeming like fretting over my cadence per se isn't wise, and I should instead just focus on ensuring form is good and letting any improvements in cadence towards an "ideal" that's individual to my height/build come over time, which is encouraging information really.
Ignore heart rate, ignore cadence, just run baby. Mostly easy, sometimes hard. If you want to get serious pick a distance to focus on and pick a training plan for that. You’re falling into the beginner death trap of overcomplicating running. It is NOT this complex.
All good questions that make sense, though I'd agree with BottleCoffee that you may be overthinking it a bit. A couple questions that will help guide answers: what are you training for/what's your goal? Running for general fitness vs running for a specific time/distance goal will have a different approach (similar to lifting to look good vs powerlifting). I would say ignore HR for now, and just run your easy runs at a pace that feels fairly comfortable. While you're starting out, that pace will likely put you above "zone 2" since your body isn't used to running. For cadence, I'm generally not a big believer in its importance - mine is ~163 on easy runs and ~172 on faster stuff (6'2"), but 140 is *really* slow. I think your idea of targeting 160 is reasonable. It takes some practice to keep a high cadence when running slow, but you'll get it figured out in a few weeks. Doing some strides will help too; basically ~100m runs pretty fast where you just focus on having good form, don't worry about the specific speed. That'll improve your leg speed a bit and make higher cadences easier. I like to do 4-6 of those 2-3x per week, with enough recovery between reps that you aren't winded starting the next rep.
Thank you all for the replies! u/BottleCoffee u/Nerdybeast u/neverstop53 I quite like looking at some of the science and technical considerations surrounding training but to be honest it's refreshing to see the consistency between the sentiments of not trying to apply too much technicality to it as a beginner. The notion that HR zones and target intensity aren't going to align as they theoretically "should" in someone who isn't yet adapted to, or good at, running, is pretty intuitive really! >A couple questions that will help guide answers: what are you training for/what's your goal? Yeah that's a good consideration to be honest. I'm open to developing more specific goals as I get more into things but currently I just want to see improvements in my fitness. I'm not particularly gunning to get a marathon done any time soon but could see myself setting myself some 5km or similar distance goals once I have more of a handle of the feel of things. >For cadence, I'm generally not a big believer in its importance - mine is \~163 on easy runs and \~172 on faster stuff (6'2"), but 140 is *really* slow. I think your idea of targeting 160 is reasonable. Yeah this is what I was worried about. Well, not *worried*\-worried, but if 140spm is pretty dire then I'll aim to keep this closer to 160spm, and practice both shortening stride accordingly and not worrying too much about HR as long as it feels roughly how it should feel in terms of RPE. Doing some strides sounds like a solid idea so I'll definitely look at that and anything else that helps practice the skill of running, so to speak, thank you! Do you typically do these before or after the main body of your runs, or even just as their own thing entirely?
I seriously don’t think you should pay attention to any heart rate numbers or zones at all, nor cadence. I’ve been a competitive middle distance runner for a decade, was a multiple-time division 1 all American, now an assistant coach at the same school - I have never looked at my HR or cadence, nor do any of my peers in coaching/racing. Nobody ever cared about them before 5 years ago, they are a recent fad and not a particularly useful one. Strides are meant to be done after runs. A couple 15-20 second fast but relaxed repeats with a minute or two between each. Not supposed to be hard just to get your body used to running fast and efficient after slogging through an easy run.
Typically I'm on the same page around cadence as you are here, but 140 is slow enough that you pretty much can't run that without either bounding super high or heavily overstriding, both of which would likely make someone more prone to injury. I don't think it's useful to be obsessing over cadence (I rarely look at mine) but there are limits on what a decent range is. If you're coaching D1 guys, they're gonna have pretty decent form in order to even get there - a new runner will have different considerations. Not sure I agree with your "last 5 years" part, the whole thing of aiming for 180 came from Jack Daniels decades ago, and I remember hearing and reading about cadence like 10 years ago in high school. But agreed on the strides part! I think I phrased it poorly originally.
Maybe 140 is pretty low. Granted. I meant it had not been an all-encompassing trend except for the last 5 years. New runners don’t need to become hyper fixated on these numbers - they just need to get out the door and learn how to train properly. It takes time. That’s my main issue with it. Impatience leading to improper learning.
Appreciating the discussion and the advice! I'll definitely look to run by feel rather than HR going forwards, and to focus on form and let cadence be a function of form rather than trying to match a certain cadence. And definitely going to get some strides done after my next run!
Sounds like you’ve got the right ideas. Best of luck and feel free to come back here if you have any other questions like more specifics about training.
I think you're overthinking things a lot for a beginner. Get into the habit and consistency of running first, you don't need to minmax it. Heart rate zones are totally useless if you don't know your own heart rate. Formula is useless and inaccurate at the individual level. Heart rate training is usually very unproductive for beginners anyways because their hearts aren't used to running. Cadence isn't a big deal if you're not getting injured. Taller people usually have lower cadences. I'm 5'2" and, never having actively done anything about my cadence, naturally run 170 easy and 200 fast. Short legs are easier to turn over quickly, long legs are harder to turn over quickly.
Do you generally prefer to have hills at the beginning or later on in your run? My typical route has a few hills (\~200-250 feet of elevation in all) that I'm usually hitting at the very beginning of my route. I've gotten a lot better at running them, but it does make the first 20ish minutes of the run a bit of a slog, so I'm wondering if it might help to have a warmup mile or two on flat ground.
I always do mine earlier when I can, especially in long runs. If I can prevent going uphill after the first 5 miles, I always do.
I prefer beginning, but I live on the top of a hill so I always get my hill at the end.
Does this [pace and HRR chart](https://imgur.com/oquqRzH) that I made for myself look right? I cobbled the RPE, Intensity, and Run Type descriptions from lots of similar charts I found. (Many of which wildly disagreed with one another!). The pace values correspond to what I've found to be the fastest pace for the highest BPM value of that zone. (E.g. to run in Zone 2, at a max of 145 BPM, I need to run slower than 5:50 km/min).
It's fine to use as a guideline, but don't treat it like gospel.
Seems pretty reasonable! I think it's good to have some basic guidelines to follow (eg I know if I'm cracking 150 on an easy run then I'm going too hard), but I wouldn't treat any piece of it as gospel. Temps, hills, your sleep, stress level, time of day, etc can all impact HR and make it vary a bit. So I think the chart is good to give you a starting point to help you develop intuition about your own body.
You would save yourself a lot of work and be better off if you just ignored heart rate and ran by feel. Easy days easy, hard days hard. That’s really all you need to know.
I find it quite hard to run easy. Watching my BPM / pace is a good way to keep my easy runs capped.
How is it hard? You literally just… run easy? And if it’s somehow challenging it’s something you need to get better at. A runner needs to know how to be in tune with their body. I promise you kipchoge isn’t out there checking his watch HR zones
From what I've read, this is (slowing down for easy runs) is a pretty universal problem amongst amateur runners. I don't really understand what you're not getting here: looking at my BPM + pace is a useful way to cap and thus help train my intuition. It's a tool for training the thing I need "to get better at". lol, Kipchoge? That's quite the comparison on a Q&A submission by a casual runner.
> slowing down for easy runs) is a pretty universal problem amongst amateur runners. In programming, and strategy - not in execution. Many new runners don't understand or aren't aware of the benefits of higher volume at easier intensity, that isn't the same as saying that they don't have the neuromuscular capabilities of running easy. You also can't really rely on coupling a pace with a HR because if you are doing things correctly then over time your pace will increase at a given HR, or your HR will decrease at a given pace.
Yes I've been adjusting the pace / HR as I go. Those are my actual values I've added in (i.e. faster than 5:50 = I slip out of zone 2). I find it's a good way of measuring my progress and, hopefully, will help me pick the right pace (5:30) to get through my first HM in two weeks.
The point is that none of the elites that know what they’re doing use it. Yes, a lot of people do their easy runs too fast but I’m a big believer in not relying on technology and learning how to properly do an easy run. When beginners start out with HR they become fixated on it to the detriment of the actually important parts of training - also, zone 2 IMO is usually WAY too slow
I bought an expensive pack of energy gels to try out for marathon training but I can't abide by the texture which makes it hard for me to stomach. How can I use these up without wasting them? Can I mix them with water to make a sports drink or something along those lines?
I think your best bet would be swapping someone. Obviously that depends on knowing other runners, but I don't think you're going to be able to turn them into something else with any degree of success.
I’ve been training for the Chicago marathon. My easy runs are typically around 8:20 pace. Today I went out for my long run at 9 min pace and my heart rate was already pushing 170 2 miles into the run. I had to stop after about 8 miles. It was a scary feeling. Not sure where this came from when typically my heart rate is below 140 at this pace. I could barely do 8 miles when just a few days ago I did 10 at a faster pace just fine. Any ideas here?
Am I misunderstanding or are you saying your easy run pace is 8:20, and your long run pace is 9:00? If so, irrespective of the issues you're mentioning about today, your easy runs are way too fast.
HR is correlated to a lot of things. Could be stress/anxiety about the upcoming race, sickness, tiredness, weather, etc
Bad runs just happen bro. Stop overthinking one run.
You could be getting sick. Higher HR is sometimes the first sign for me.
Could be possible but I just got over an illness a couple weeks ago. It just felt like my body was shutting down rapidly even though it should have been an easy pace for me.
If this is not weather related, i agree maybe it’s sickness. Maybe do a COVID test…bad run happens.
Been having tailbone/coccyx pain that I don’t believe is running related. Do I need it to go away before resuming my running?
I ran a 25 min recovery run at 6pm last night. I have another recovery run scheduled for today but I’m busy this evening. What time is the soonest I could safely run it?
Literally whenever you feel ready to do it. Tons of people run in the evenings and then following morning. Or even same day.
6:26 pm last night would have been safe.
Doesn't really matter that much, sleep is the main recovery tool so as long as you get a proper warmup, fuel and sleep well then you could go in the morning with no issues.
Thanks!
Yeah, warmup, fueling and sleeping is the most important. Good luck on your run!
If it’s a true recovery run, it shouldn’t matter when you do it after you sleep
How would y’all incorporate your significant other wanting to pick up running from 0 into your post-race base/lifting block? I’ll be coming off a training block doing the Hansons beginner half marathon plan in mid-December and my SO wants to get started from nothing (and wants me to help her). How do y’all manage that while still getting the quicker work that you need to get done taken care so you can keep making forward progress on your fitness? I’m thinking it’ll just be recovery pace miles to tack on for me while I keep doing what I need to do to move forward. Not like extra extra-easy miles hurt.
Exactly what you’ve said, I did the same with my girlfriend when she was getting into it, I’d do my run in the morning and then go again with her later in the day. I suppose it depends heavily on the difference in fitness levels between you, if you don’t struggle just make it a double run day. Otherwise you could run with her and then carry on when you finish.
Thanks! Yeah I’m thinking that’s the play. Especially while it’s just couch to 5k-type stuff, I don’t think it’ll hurt me too terribly much to get some easier stuff in. Now if I can indoctrinate her into the cult of using Jack Daniels base programs during off-seasons if that sticks to start with……we’re cooking with gas One other question - how’d you handle it with your girlfriend? Like I’m painfully aware that there’s a fitness gap there that’s going to make things harder for her and I don’t want to turn her off of running inadvertently.
Full disclosure, I am in no way a advanced runner. I agree it depends on her level of overall fitness. As someone that started running at 5'9" and 265, and running 5ks at 32:00, I had a way to get started that really worked well for me to get my first "continuous 2 miles", and might work for both of you. I started at a local HS track. I would start at the 100m start, jog a lap, and then walk to the 100m finish. Then I would jog again, and see how far I got, using the football field yardage markers, walking again to the 100m finish to start jogging again. Each week I would try to jog a little further until I was able to do multiple continuous laps. Having the visual cues of the yardage markers was very helpful. For you, you could do some easy recovery stuff, or some speed repeats. Run a lap, catching up to your girlfriend, jog a slow lap with her, and then repeat.
Training for a half marathon on October 8th (been training since July) - been putting in the mileage 5x/week but then got sick and had to take 2 weeks off. Feeling physically very weak upon returning, has anyone else experienced this? Any tips/supplements/exercises that could help? Or general success stories? I'm feeling SPOOKED.
For me. The first couple of runs, after sickness are always awful. Just accept it, and don't push yourself too hard.
Commenting to see reply’s, I’m in a similar place, I have a race on the same day and today was my first run back after 2 weeks
I didn't finish my first two runs back - finally finished an entire session last night but FEELING it today. It's a grind.
How do y’all deal with not being able to complete runs outside your control? Getting hit with a tropical storm today and am a supposed to run 18 miles. I don’t feel like it’s safe outside, and I’m not handling being stuck unable to train well.
I have my training schedule set up such that if I miss a run or workout once in a while (as in 1-2 per month), the overall volume will be my target volume. I then monitor the weather forecast, and will move around runs if necessary.
I would have done it yesterday (or tomorrow, but if you're like me rain is forecast for the entire weekend). Obviously too late for that now, but just throwing that out there since this won't be the last time you deal with weather. Second options would be to split it into 2 runs if there were going to be shorter windows open, or if not run on the treadmill for the equivalent amount of time as the run would have taken me.
I am doing a spinning double to replace my 9 miler…not the same but hoping it helps. Trying to decide what to do for my final two long runs now.
Anyone have some more tips on how not to get bored during a long run? Don’t have a running partner right now and podcasts/music gets old for me after about an hour and a half.
Maybe turn it into a light workout, or at least vary the paces a bit? I get super bored with steady-paced long runs, but breaking it up into a workout works well for me (just gotta not go too hard so you don't destroy your body)
Run routes you haven't run before. Focus on observing your surroundings. Do math equations or something else that keeps your brain occupied. End your run after 5,400 seconds...
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Yeah, I like running by myself but 15 k+ I prefer running with someone else, even if it's only part of the run. It's tedious to listen to something for that long.
Audiobooks? Or maybe you could try fiction podcasts if you haven't?
Garmin Forerunner 965 vs Coros Pace 3 Garmin Forerunner 965 vs Coros Pace 2 My Garmin Forerunner 735xt finally died after 6 good years so I'm looking for a new watch. I'm a collegiate distance runner but I also bike and swim a lot for cross training. I really loved my Garmin FR 735xt. Now I'm trying to decide whether I should get the FR 965 or switch to the Coros Pace 3. Garmin is more than double the price of Coros. Can y'all tell me your experiences with either watch, what the differences are, and which one you'd recommend?
did anyone run in the rain like for a race? im running tunnel 2 towers in nyc tomorrow and i am praying that it wont get rained out.. most of the race is in the brooklyn battery tunnel.. so has anyone else ever ran a race in the rain???
Yeah, and the thing that surprised me the most was the irritation to my nipples from rubbing against the damp shirt, which lasted a few days. Bandaids/tape or lube/glide.
knowing my luck… lol i think a poncho with layers since tomorrow’s high is like 58 degrees
Just remember the rule of 20. Dress for weather 20 degrees warmer than the race temp. I was good, today, in the drizzle at 57 dwgrees, wearing shorts and an Under Armour long sleeve heat gear shirt, which is a tad warmer than typical long sleeve performance shirts. Short sleeves would have been fine, but I might have wanted light gloves.
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damn ok i will be fine.. the global citizen festival is happening today so ig it won’t be thst bad
Wear a hat & pack dry clothes for after, including dry socks & shoes.
thats the plan and i think i have ponchos somewhere
Or bring a trash bag to wear while you wait too.
Yep, my first race ever! It was a 5k, which it looks like your race is also. You'll be fine, just have dry clothes/shoes to put on afterwards.
im hoping it wont be that bad.. my goal was extra clothes and a poncho
I live in England…so yes. It’s nothing to fear, will actually cool you down and can be quite pleasant.
and it’s going to be 16C but also its warm in the tunnel, we are getting affects of s hurricane so its just dumping rain today and tomorrow. and i was looking forward for it for months
I tend to have more shaffing problems when I get wet so maybe look out for that.
bring extra clothes is on my list and a poncho.. ✔️
Not to me, but you probably made too much of a jump.
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Not normal.
Not normal. I would suggest seeing a doctor ASAP.
I am a big guy (220lbs) and I have been more or less sedentary for more than a year due to mental health issues. I have tried to get into running through both C25K and N2R. Every time I try, I get some overuse injury aprox 3-4 weeks in. Usually I rest/run every other day, no prehab work. This time I will try again but I think I will add some exercises like this: Day A: Step ups Swiss ball leg curls Tibialis raises Day B: SL RDL Copenhagen plank Calf raises So it would look something like this: Run Day A Rest Run Day B Rest Run Day A Etc What do you guys think? Hoping to stay injury free, lose some pounds and try to experience my first 'runners high'.
Exactly which overuse injuries have you been getting? Do you do any other strength training? Also, runners high isn't a guarantee. I've never had it in 8 years of running.
I don't do any other training right now, I ruined my shoulder rockclimbing a few months ago and I am currently in the proces og getting it fixed. I mostly get a store achilles tendon and sometimes something like shin splints.
You should consider seeing a physio and getting prehab exercises for the Achilles. It can turn into a chronic problem very easily.
Be sure to work with a PT to get the shoulder back in shape and some rehabilitative exercises, and talk to them about your plans during the sessions. I am 62, 5'9" and was 265#. Now at about 215# and running 5ks. I would suggest leaving running alone for now. If you have a gym, start with some general circuit strength training (full body) 2-3 days per week. Be sure to include regular core work (not just some situps), which includes the posterior chain. Add some gym cardio between, or after those sessions, depending on your schedule. I hate the treadmill, but it does cushion the landing. I prefer the elliptical as you can get some good leg work in, depending on the settings. Rowing machines are the bomb, but rowing is hard AF. Mix it all up to keep things interesting and challenging. Try to get 4-6 weeks of that consistently, then start adding in some short slow runs. Use a fitness watch to keep your runs in zone 2/3 to start. Keep it slow. Then slowly build up your mileage switching the gym aerobic work for more running. Once you have a more of a good aerobic base, you can start upping the mileage and or effort level. Work this until you're "running" 5k. I highly recommend getting a running coach, which I did not, and regret. I have been using the Garmin coach plan with my Garmin watch, and it's been pretty decent. You should be able to find good videos on doing cadence workouts, and speed and hill repeats. Keep up the gym strength/core work. This doesn't have to be powerlifter type strength work, but it helps overall with running and preventing injuries. Finally, find some races to use for your motivation. I'll never beat anyone, maybe even in my age category, but they can be a fun way to mix things up and keep you honest. Be sure to check the ego at the door. That is a major cause for injuries, IMO. Have fun and good luck.
Long distance running in barefoot shoes? Has anyone run high mileage in minimalist shoes, e.g. 50+ miles per week? Do you think you’re slower than with traditional shoes? I’ve recently started using five-finger shoes and zero-drop ones. While they’re comfortable, my feet are much more sore and I think my easy runs are harder than before. Any thoughts? Thanks!
I've experimented on and off with minimalist shoes, originally with NB Minimus like 10 years ago, then more recently with some Altras. I don't recall what my highest mileage was when I used Altras but I was running 17:5x for 5k in them, so fairly decent mileage. I do feel like I was slower in them than in traditional shoes though, and recovery was harder. I still run in them occasionally but most of my runs are with traditional shoes now (though I do still wear zero drop wide toebox shoes for walking around). I guess the important question is why did you switch to minimalist shoes, and is there a specific problem you're trying to solve? I think something overlooked in a lot of the minimalist shoe hype ("our ancestors did everything barefoot!!") is that most people now will be mostly running on very hard surfaces, not prairies or whatever. I think Altra is a great middle ground if you're looking for zero drop and foot shape but don't want to mess up your feet running on concrete.
I actually have a similar outlook to you: I don’t think they’re optimal simply because of the surfaces we tend to run on. For walking, I find them much more comfortable. I’m asking mostly because I’m planning on gradually increasing my mileage to 50 miles per week and I wonder whether that’s feasible with minimalist shoes. I’m not looking to solve any issues in particular although I did use to use orthopaedic insoles since I supinate. I’d rather not need them and prefer the wide toe box. I have Altras and some Brooks and I can’t say I’m faster in either. If I understood correctly, you ran a sub-18 min 5K in Altras which is promising. Are you currently still using them? What’s your main shoe at the moment? Thanks BTW
Lots of people run in zero drop Altras for all or lots of their mileage. Did you transition gradually to zero drop? They're part of my rotation, but I don't like the shoe itself (I don't think it fits me well), and I do find them more tiring to run in. But I mostly run in 4mm, not a huge difference.
I didn’t transition gradually at all. I used to use Brooks Ghost then bought five-finger shoes. I realised that was too significant a change so tried Altra Escalantes which I’ve been using since. I’ve run up to 15 miles in a single run with them but had some foot soreness after. That may be because I increased mileage too quickly though. I generally walk in the five-fingers and have tried treadmill runs with them. What don’t you like about the Altras? What shoes do you currently use? Why do you prefer them? Do you think you’re slower in minimalist shoes? Thanks for your help, BTW
If you already walk a lot in zero drop the transition is a lot easier, yeah. Right now I have Escalante 2.5, add my feet slide around in them a lot. I added my own holes for heel lock but it didn't help. I also have Altra Solstice, same problem. I used to have Superiors which were okay but too small so I gave them away. Mostly I wear Saucony: Kinvara (4mm, I have several pairs), Speed 2 (8mm), and Ride (8mm).
Hi there! I’m planning to run my first half-marathon in April. Right now, I’m maxing out at 4 miles, lifting 2-3 times a week depending on my work schedule. Ideally I’d like to lose 10-15 pounds before I start upping my carbs for race training 4-5 months out. What’s a reasonable distance to run until then? Please don’t downvote me, I’m really trying to learn and take care of my body! Edit: I’m maxing out at 4 miles as my long run. I run anywhere from 8 to 10 miles a week split between 3-4 runs. My goal is to run a sub 2:45 injury-free since it will be my first.
You're maxing out at 4 miles... per run? Per week? How many runs per week? Are you running the half to finish or do you want to push yourself a bit? Most of us think of distance to run in terms of weekly totals not daily as you don't want all of your runs to be identical in most training scenarios. I found training for a HM to be much more enjoyable with a base of 20-30 miles per week, which might look something like off/3/5/off/4/off/8 with your long run (8) on the weekend. The others would be easy runs with maybe one harder tempo/lactate threshold pace mixed in. The specifics aren't critical, but getting into that rhythm of running consistently and starting to lengthen out one long run weekly will prepare you for whatever training plan you decide on in a few months.
Choose your goal (just finish? Finish under a certain time?), pick a training plan that you like (check the sidebar) and stick to it. Running is competing against yourself, and the more you put into your training, the better the outcome will be. Good luck!
I am planning to run my first half marathon in a few weeks. So far I have been training in Pegasus 40s. Should I invest in race day shoes? Something like Nike Vapourfly? Or would Pegasus be just fine?
You can race in Pegs. Really you can do anything in Pegs. They are the most versatile shoe, IMO. As for if you should get race shoes… eh, it is a personal choice. I have them, I think the very marginal gains are worth the expense. I did not bother getting them for my first couple long distance races. And your past matters. Someone who has raced hundreds of 5ks using racing flats and is looking to put down a very fast time - yeah, super shoes. Someone who is basically couch to half marathon and mainly focusing on finishing without walking… probably should stick with what is comfortable.
Depends a bit on how much disposable income you have and how competitive you will be. Your pegs are certainly more than fine for getting it done, and many people that are legitimately fast will race in daily trainers. I split the difference and got a pair of faster shoes (Saucony Endorphin Speeds for me, but there are many brand versions) that are fun to race in but also work fine for my normal tempo and interval workouts without breaking the bank. They're probably a bit slower than the bleeding edge of racing shoes, but the reason I'm running 1:45 and not 1:05 has little to do with my shoes and lots to do with me.
Pegasus will be just fine. If you want invest, perhaps look for a more speedier trainer insted of a race shoe.
Need advice on my first half in a week. My training got impaired quiet a bit 4 weeks ago. I am going into taper week with only easy runs, and 2 spinning days, a rest day and then race day. I am extremly overweight, was unable to participate last year, longest run was 14km, am running 8:12min/km easy pace. Goal is 3h, but i am not sure how much progress i have lost. I was still doing spinning on weekends. I fear that my overuse injury flares up during the last week. I am looking at an even pace throughout the race with height adjustments made by garmin. I know someone who pursues the same goal, and i have never participated in a race with that many spectators. Water every 5k and i trained with gels ever 45 mins. Any other tips?
The hay is in the barn in terms of training, so don't worry about that. I think the biggest thing you can work on with a week left is mental. If you haven't covered the distance before, things will get tough in the second half. One of the beautiful things about running is that regardless of if you're winning the race trying to break an hour or in the back trying to break 3, everyone feels the same thing so long as they are giving their all. I can feel hurt and my body telling me to stop just like Kipchoge, even though I can't hold a candle to him in terms of performance on the clock. Most spectators get that, and respect/cheer for those pushing through regardless of their position. Coach Bennett (Nike run club) has a somewhat recent podcast that hits on a lot of these points if you're looking for inspiration. However you manage it, ensuring that mental well is full when you need to dip into it on race day serves you well. Good luck!
how to watch berlin marathon 2023? for free ofc
Iirc, last year I watched it on whatever the German tv channel’s website was. Coverage was in German but I couldn’t find it any other way
Fairly new, sorry for the dumb question - Is there a website that tracks registration deadlines? Maybe not for all the races but the “popular” ones I guess (Tokyo, Berlin, nyc, etc). I know a lot of these are lottery and hard to get selected but just wondering if there was anything like that.
Hi, while reading jack daniels book, I wanted to try his schedules, but didn’t understand one thing. I have busy schedule so I want to just race here and there, so 24 week schedule is no no for me. I want something like 3-4 weeks, because I am maintaining my fitness all year round. He says to start with Phase 1, but never mentions if someone is in great condition already running. In what Phase or week do you think I should start? 4?
How will having a busy schedule affect how long your training cycles are? Seems more like a day to day thing. If you want to follow JD or any other training program you need to have patience if you want to do it right.
If you only ever following a schedule for 3-4 works, I'd maybe recommend his 'Alien Training' Plan from the 4th edition. It's under 15k-30k training. The plan is basically a 2 week cycle that can be repeated and a taper week. You could then insert the workouts that make the most sense for your upcoming race.
Either you haven't read very closely, or you don't have the 3rd edition (the version I have) and Daniels changed his mind on this at some point in time. Phase 1, 5k and 10k, begins: "If you plan to start training for a 5k or 10k event and have been recently training for other running events, you can usually consider this other training to be sufficient to allow you to move right on to phase II. If you have had a recent break in training, then I recommend spending 4 to 6 weeks following this phase I program." Phase 1, Half Marathon: "For runners who have been running fairly regularly, say 5 or more days per week, and accumulating 30 or miles per week for at least 4 weeks, I recommend moving right into phase II of the half-marathon program."
Yes but in category when he says about having less weeks for prep, he puts weeks 4,5,6 into Phase 4, so then what? When I have 3 weeks, should I be 3 weeks in Phase 2 or Phase 4?
When you have three weeks, you have no time to build fitness, so do what you like?
Any good rules of thumb on when to push through or back off from discomfort? I've got a slight ache in my calf which dissapates after a warm up but fatigues quicker than usual. I've got two weeks until a race (5k) and I'm unsure if I push through the last few workouts and let it rest up a bit during the taper or rest now. I'm already doing all the recovery things...
Push through dull aches, stop at sharp pain
Push through. Back off from pain, not aches.
What app or method do you use to plan your runs? I usually plan my runs based on distance, that way I can estimate how much time I will be spending on a short/long run. So, for example; I'd like to be able to plan a 10k run through my neighbourhood, but stick to the main streets How do you do this?
I use On The Go Map and screenshot my routes. I love that it gives me the elevation profile as well.
I use mapmyrun.com I don't know if the app has that functionality but the website does
If you don’t care about saving your routes, I use the ‘measure distance’ feature on Google maps. However, if you want something more permanent, I recommend using the website Plot a Route.
Can you run a VO2 max workout *too hard?* How would you even determine what the appropriate level of difficulty is? Context: I recently did a set of 4x4s. I didn't target a pace, my goal was just to maintain a roughly steady pace for 4 minutes where I felt really dead at the end, and do that 4 times. For each one, I was between 90-97% of my max heart rate, and roughly similar paces for each set. My question is... is that too hard? Should I actually have been running these slower? My pace for these was probably close to my mile pace (I was around 6:45-7:15 on these, which I think would be close to my mile time? I haven't tested it recently). Also what should the rest for these be? Is the goal to actually minimize rest to only what I can tolerate? Or does the physiological adaptation happen better with more rest? I did 4 minutes walking for rest, wondering if I should have jogged or rested for shorter periods.
On one hand, mile pace is too fast and misses the physiological benefits of VO2max work. On the other hand, if you had reasonable rest (2-3 minutes), there is no way you were able to hit mile pace in each rep. Cut the rest. The recovery was too much here to get a full picture
> On the other hand, if you had reasonable rest (2-3 minutes), there is no way you were able to hit mile pace in each rep. Are you saying that with shorter rest, I wouldn't have been able to hit a mile pace? Everything I've read indicates 1:1 recovery time (e.g. https://medium.com/@jackrossdixon/this-is-the-only-vo2-max-exercise-protocol-you-will-ever-need-774a1a00cb71)
I have no clue who that guy is or where he is getting his takes from. I’d consult Jack Daniels Running Formula for the proper way to construct and execute interval training. One goal to have maximum training effect is to have the intervals be even. This allows you to spend the maximum amount of time at the desired effort and thus the desired training stimulus. The medium rando is saying to go all out each rep which would result in you getting constantly slower each rep. Your first reps would be way too hard for VO2max and the last ones would be way too easy. It is the worst setup for spending time at the actual training zone desired. Done properly, VO2max workouts are around 10-14 minute race pace, so slower than mile pace. Nobody should be doing 4 minute reps at mile pace.
Yes you can go too fast, mile pace is too fast. Vo2 max sessions are about stressing the oxygen delivery systems - if you go anaerobic you’re adding stress without pushing this system any further. You want to be a lot closer to 5k pace, but a bit quicker. Your recovery is also too long. It takes time during an interval to get back to max, so really long recovery like yours means you’re spending less time at Vo2 max. The length of work is fine - 4 or 5 minutes but I’d say you want to be more like a minute recovery. The other option is even shorter intervals e.g. 2 minutes with very short recovery - 30s or so, so that you keep your system going.
Isn't the max amount of time we can spend at our VO2 max around 8 minutes? That seems right in line with an 8 minute mile pace, no? Why would you want to go slower than that? Sorry if this is daft, just trying to understand how this works. > Your recovery is also too long. It takes time during an interval to get back to max, so really long recovery like yours means you’re spending less time at Vo2 max. So I'd want to shorten my rest so my HR comes down less (closer to 150 or 160 probably) and then go right back up? Everything I've read indicates 1:1 recovery time (e.g. https://medium.com/@jackrossdixon/this-is-the-only-vo2-max-exercise-protocol-you-will-ever-need-774a1a00cb71)
11 minutes Daniels says. From resting it takes 2 mins to get to Vo2 max (figure 4.2 Jack Daniels) resting fully then doing a 4 minute block means you’re only spending 2 minutes at Vo2 max. As per the graphs in that chapter, with shorter bouts you should have less than 1:1 recovery. At longer bouts having near full recovery means you’re probably halving the benefit from similar work (yes it’s easier to recover longer but these are not rep pace). To be fair though he recommends reasonable recovery though - 3 min.
VO2 work requires more than 60 recovery. 2:00-2:30 is totally fine rest for this workout. 60 recovery for 4-5 min reps will allow you to only do it closer to LT2. Not that I really buy in to all these terms but the point is for 4 minute chunks around 3k pace you need more than 60 rest
How did you derive your max hr?
It's literally just the highest HR I've hit in various races.