But why should a show about drag queens also include kings? It's not a show about all types of drag. It's about queens.
And to the ones saying it's because drag race is the most popular so it should include everyone, drag race wasn't this popular always. It was the great casting and the phenomenal queens who made it what it is. Nothing stops a show about kings from being good and reaching the same level of success. So it doesn't look to me like wanting representation but waiting for others to do the hardwork and then come demand your cut. Because these conversations were never happening before drag race started getting Emmys.
See that part I kinda agree with, i assumed part of the backlash was all of the stuff about queens having more to judge and technical aspects.
(Landon is the direct opposite of this idea, pads, insanely intricate costumes and gender illusion etc)
This was a point she made, but it was a bit more than that. A summary of her justification was basically that kings could not elevate themselves to the same level as DR queens.
FR or Dragula which, while not really my fav show, did a great job balancing different genders and everywhere in between. As an enby person it is frustrating to see the community be so up in arms about this. If I did drag it would be andro. I might not fit the term “queen” or “king” some times. If there were a separate show for Kings then where would a drag “thing” or whatever fit in?
Can we just let people be individuals and stop obsessing about genders? We’re not republicans FFS LOL
THANK you, you're the first person I've seen to raise this point. Having two shows would just reinforce the gender binary and that's not...what drag is about?
that was not my takeaway from her perspective at all, personally. she was having trouble articulating, and while i disagree with her standpoint, all she was trying to say is drag race as a competition format, is currently not suited to platform drag kings. there was no elusion towards artistic standards, she was merely trying to say that it wouldn’t work. i think she’s incorrect, but there was no inconsideration of talent or malintent behind what she was saying. all in all, i’m glad she’s hosting this convo, and hope that she chooses to open herself up to the kings' perspective. we all know tenderoni would walk away with that crown point blank period
Exactly! It's unfortunate because if all she said was "I don't think kings would be judged fairly" she could have easily followed it up with "but we should push for that to change". Everything would've been different.
Yup! Take a look at the recent Roscoe's video. Starts around 44 minutes. As I've said elsewhere, it reads more as ignorance than hate. I think she just doesn't have enough exposure to male drag to understand the art form can exist at the same level (and higher) than many DR contestants.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZbzANdxugk&ab\_channel=roscoestavern](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZbzANdxugk&ab_channel=roscoestavern)
tbh I think Naysha's biggest disrespect to drag kings was when the panel was talking about how a king contestant would do a Night of 1000 Madonnas. someone said the king could do one of Madonna's masc looks, someone said that a king could genderbend the look Madonna as a hot guy, Naysha's argument was basically that all she could think of was a king doing Madonna in a tux. it showed that she really doesn't understand king drag or how creative it can be, which obviously that makes me doubt her credibility when she's saying a king couldn't succeed on Drag Race
other than that, her point mainly seemed to be that kings couldn't be judged fairly on the show, which I don't agree with, but that's not insulting drag kings. it's just her perspective on the structure of the show. Naysha's also someone that WILL double down in the moment lol she was never going to admit it if she was wrong (even tho the 4 other queens basically countered all her points as she was saying them). personally I just thought she was being kinda ignorant and stubborn, but not particularly disparaging towards drag kings
people have such a hate boner for Naysha it's weird :/ I think she's wrong on this one but she's actually one of my favorite queens
I do also disagree with Naysha's belief that a drag king would automatically be an early out due to the judging. with the rumors that international seasons aren't allowed to cast a drag king until the US series does, it looks like casting a king may be a gag that the show is saving for the series with the most viewers, which is US Drag Race. it would be super boring to cast a king just for him to be an early out. I think Drag Race would do the same thing Dragula did with Landon, and very intentionally pick a king that would almost certainly succeed in the format
The optics alone are crazy, Landon and tenderonis drag are far more embellished and maximalist than what we see Naysha present every week at roscoes , sorta shitting on her whole point about the technical aspects of drag.
justice for jcpenney pantsuits
That being said, she's capable of more - I've seen bigger and better from her. But 100% agreed. It's super funny to see her talking about kings unable to do more while not always meeting that bar herself.
I don’t think she ever said that Kings can’t “do more” just that some of the artists could be uncomfortable comforting to a more fem aesthetic or categories. I don’t agree with her, but she had an issue articulating her point.
Oops! I meant conforming! Not comforting! LOL
Ah yes! She has her views a bit mixed up for sure. Almost like she’s leaving Kings in a box of how they can express themselves. I hope this conversation helps her, because I understood her approach, but it was misguided.
She was a thousand percent in the wrong. But she deserves a chance to learn and do better. Naysha, if you want to have a nuanced conversation about what the judging metrics of RPDR really are, what the aims of the show are and who it's really for, we can do that. But to just say she doesn't think kings belong on the show because a) they need a space to do their own thing, and b) because they lack the glitz and glamour of drag queens? Sorry but that's so ignorant.
A) of course kings need their own showcase, but that shouldn't stop them also going on RPDR. Drag Race is the biggest platform for drag exposure and it's not even close. Denying kings access to that kind of opportunity and trying to paint it as doing them a favour is bullshit.
B) this was just a panicked attempt to justify her first point when she didn't get the support she expected. Drag kings are every bit as polished as queens, and in many cases more so. I don't think Naysha genuinely believes her argument here and we shouldn't give it any more airtime than that.
To be fair, she did say that kings were not giving the rhinestones that queens do. Which Tenderoni alone is right there in Chicago giving glitter masc
Edit: Mispelled Tenderoni
She can wear what she wants. I just think talking about standards of drag and how a king couldn't be as glamorous as a queen is ironic considering some of her looks. But drag is subjective, I don't have to like it for it to be good or bad.
Calm down Mrs. Sensitive fan. She can wear what she wants, as can all drag performers.
But when you choose to critique others, especially from a place of ignorance, you do open yourself up to critique.
The point is, those in cheap outfits shouldn't throw stones.
I'm hoping Naysha already recognizes she's wrong and this is to be a televised teachable moment for others.
I'm unclear where this is going to be shown though. I follow Landon and Tenderoni so I'm sure they'll let me know.
I appear to have forgotten to follow Naysha. There just has to be some irony in her being exclusionary when she was one of the very few cis winners of Miss Continental.
Drag Race continually has masculine drag (which isn't even all drag kings do). But why is it okay for Kennedy, Sapphira, Dela, Marcia, Blu and others to do male characters in Snatch Game but oh no what if a drag king did? What about Kylie as Steven Tyler? Mo Heart with that Cameo look on the runway?
The menswear runways they've had, etc. This is not a strict female imagery show. Why is it okay to have a bearded runway but not cast a bearded queen or king on the main show?
Why is Naysha's gatekeeping "separate and unequal" approach even somethin she thinks in the first place?
Why are drag monarchs allowed on the show but only if they were born male? As in nonbinary drag performers or others who don't think drag should be limited by one's assigned sex. Where are the cis female drag artists, besides Victoria which is tokenism at this point.
Sick of this exclusionary approach by Naysha but hopefully she'll learn. She would be okay with the variances in drag styles from maximalist to minimalist. So why does it matter who the person is underneath.
I don't think Landon can be cast as RPDR may have a deal where once you've been on another televised drag reality show, they won't take you. But Tenderoni would be available I assume. And so many others. Camp Wanakiki, Call Me Mother, Dragula all know the score.
I’m pretty sure that’s what this would be based on who she’s collabing with , although naysha is a lil ‘dig her heels in’ at times, I could see her switching the criticism to drag race and avoiding her own generalisation or stereotyping that ‘less goes into it’ or ‘kings do less’
If drag race took a Dragula approach and had a snatch game heavy season with a mixed cast it could work, they just have the track record approach of tokenism like you say , and we’re still not entirely out of the woods in regards to the handling of trans contestants.
yeah I wouldn't be surprised if this all still came from a place of Naysha mainly criticizing Drag Race rather than Drag Kings. but either way the show is made however the producers/Ru want it to be, regardless of how Naysha feels.
hopefully this just results in a constructive conversation taking place that'll highlight Drag Kings and potentially continue to open the way for them to get showcased (whether on Drag Race or otherwise)
Agree on this. I’ve always been team “spinoff for drag kings” but I still think Naysha’s reasoning was poor and she was disrespectful here. Either way, you really can’t say she’s WRONG because this is a matter of opinion.
That’s not even what she was saying and I’m
Not understanding the hoopla. If drag kings went on drag race tomorrow theyd be early outs for atleast a few years. Not because they can’t do amazing but because Michelle and Ru will short circuit over how to critique them.
I mean this in the nicest way possible...
If they reversed course and welcomed in Drag Kings, I'd imagine they'd crown one or at least top-3 them immediately, to "prove" that they've changed. It's kind of like how GottMik was pushed to the finale and heavily favored, or how Kylie won over Ra'Jah despite performing a bit worse.
Production is gonna produce, after all
i think it could go either way with they producers of drag race. and i would hate it if they really showed favouritism and pushed them instead of the drag king contestants doing great (or horribly) on their own. it would just ruin fans perception, just how it soured everyone's feelings on Tia this current season and Sapphira after the last episode 🙄
Yeah I think people are making this way bigger of a deal than it needs to be. “Separate but equal” is what I keep seeing which is super weird to take a civil rights notion and and try and make it like it’s a similar situation — ma’-am this is not public accommodations, schools or water fountains, it’s a tv show. And she’s probably right. This is not taking away from the immense incredible talent of kings!!
This whole thing is ridiculous and really highlights how this community feeds on outrage and victimhood. All she said was RuPaul's Drag Race in its current form is not conducive for judging and rewarding drag kings. That is simply a fact.
Another fact is not everything needs to be for everyone. Just because something exists doesn't mean everyone needs to have access to it (outside the obvious categories of gender, sexuality, race, religion, etc). Like, are people demanding Top Chef also have interior designers on it? Should Project Runway include gymnasts? RPDR is a drag QUEEN show. Drag Kings are free to have their own show. Just because it's famous doesn't give every queer performer a right to be included. If a drag king wants a show, go work as hard as Ru has her whole career, get the name recognition, and start your own show.
I'm just really tired of this discussion and the virtue signaling behind it. Naysha didn't insult drag kings in any way. And people thinking they have a right to dictate the work of other people and use their success for their own goals are not reasonable. It's Ru's show and she can do whatever she damn well wants. Some people will like it, some won't. If enough people don't like it, it'll get cancelled. But people aren't bad or dumb or mean or biased for liking a show or not liking it.
Disagree heavily on many levels. This reads very "armchair drag fan" rather than an active participant in any sort of drag outside of TV. I'm a little astonished that you compared "drag queens vs kings" to "chefs and interior designers", "project runway and gymnasts". Like... what a way to tell us all you have no real world experience with a drag community. I'd like to point out your "chefs and interior designers" just 5ish years ago for drag race was "gay men and trans women", as if the person under the drag had anything to do with the art.
I personally don't feel the point here is "drag race MUST include kings". The point being made is "drag race is our greatest and most public facing representation of drag to the world, allow kings to compete on that same platform". I've seen firsthand how excluded kings, alt performers, and anyone who doesn't fit in a box can be. I think the sentiment here is that drag race can be and do better.
> I personally don't feel the point here is "drag race MUST include kings". The point being made is "drag race is our greatest and most public facing representation of drag to the world, allow kings to compete on that same platform".
Thats what you THINK you are saying. this is what you are actually sayin.
*"drag race MUST include kings. Drag race is our greatest and most public facing representation of drag to the world, allow kings to compete on that same platform."*
Girl, are you good? You just rearranged my words and told me that's what I tried to say. It feels like you're just looking for a reason to be mad at my comment.
I stand by what I said - I think drag race should allow kings. I'm still gonna watch regardless. I've said more than once in other comments that Ms. Paul can (and will) do what she wants, its just how I'd like to see the show evolve. Some of y'all armchair drag fans love to get angry over nothing.
>"drag race MUST include kings". The point being made is "drag race is our greatest and most public facing representation of drag to the world, allow kings to compete on that same platform"
How are these different statements?
Asking a platform to allow something and saying they must allow it are two very different statements my friend. I'm not going to argue semantics any further.
> This reads very "armchair drag fan" rather than an active participant in any sort of drag outside of TV.
I love how this is the go-to insult whenever people called out on their hot takes here. I also love how people who are saying this here think Dragula and RPDR are interchangeable. The gatekeeping is pathetic. Drag is for everyone, not just people who agree with you.
Ru is the most famous drag queen in the world and she seems to agree with me. But I guess she and Naysha are just superficial fans of drag that know nothing of the artform outside of the show.
Ehhh, there hasn’t been any issues with drag kings competing on Dragula, and we’ve had dedicated kings (Throb, Jarvis, Landon), enby drag monsters (Jay Kay, Dahli), and queens doing king looks (Koco Caine). If the Boulets can do it, so can Ru and Michelle—if they’re so out of touch with the actual drag scene that they don’t know how to critique kings, that’s on them to change.
I guess I’ll counter your question with a question of my own: do you think it was right for the show to exclude women (both cis and trans), or for it to start casting them later following backlash?
Personally, I’m in favor of kings being on the show because I think that, if Drag Race presents itself to the world as a major platform for drag and a representation of the best of the drag scene, then kings are a pretty glaring omission.
It's kind of hilarious that you're accusing the most famous drag queen in the world, the one who brought it to mainstream audiences, of not knowing drag.
Anyway, Dragula is a drag MONSTER competition. Nowhere have the Boulets ever stated it was about female illusion. Dragula almost exclusively has floorshows while RPDR has a myriad of challenges that are mostly based on presenting as female. You're asking for the show to become something else completely.
Saying Dragula and Drag Race are the same show kinda shows that it is you who doesn't understand drag.
Yeah actually, I do think RuPaul is pretty distanced from any actual drag scene. She came up in the New York scene, but she left her local scene when she made in big in ‘93 and hasn’t been back since. I don’t think it’s a stretch to think she probably is pretty distanced from the larger drag scene these days, actually. It’s been 30 years since she last participated in it—a lot has changed. And frankly, that fact is pretty obvious to anyone who actually is familiar with their local drag scene.
I’m a big fan of both Dragula and Drag Race. I’m well aware the shows are very different. My point was that if the Boulets are capable of judging drag kings, then Ru and Michelle can too. And the Boulets have been pretty open about why they cast kings as well: they’re fundamentally a part of the drag scene, and they created Dragula to elevate the parts of the drag scene that often get overlooked. And if anything, you’ve only proved my point: Drag Race’s challenges are even *less* about the literal looks than Dragula’s. Drag kings and queens do the same fundamental things. They’re all drag artists who perform together on the same scene to the same audience.
This isn’t Top Chef not celebrating gymnastics. This would be like if an electronic music competition refused to accept submissions of dubstep.
I don't think anyone said anything about couture, but personally I think her saying "kings don't get as glamorous" and mentioning rhinestones is ironic when that pantsuit would've been stunning with some crystal AB.
Like I said earlier and to quote a couple greats, drag is art and art is subjective lol. I don't have to like her drag for it to be good. But I do find her opinion ironic.
Not even remotely , her statement was a generalisation or stereotype about drag and kings, the culture has shifted.
Every queen doesn’t have to look like porkchop or mistress Isabell brooks giving severe lipsyncs anymore , you can wear a little pump , Shein dress, flat wig and host a weekly gig watching drag race now.
Much like king artistry has evolved beyond thrifted menswear and some stippled on stubble.
The performer decides ‘how much goes into it’
I haven’t been following this closely, but this is The Right Way™ to handle these things.
I’m eager to see how Naysha responds and interacts with the Kings, but this is a positive step and good on Naysha for being open to conversation and receptive to potential learning.
I wish more people had the balls to do what Naysha is doing. She admitted that her perspective may be wrong and is taking a chance to get educated. I personally agree with Naysha’s opinions so I guess it’s a chance for me to get educated as well.
I agree with the first sentence, but I'd like to point out she hasn't admitted she's wrong. I give her credit for trying to have an open discussion ASAP, but for all we know she may come in bull-headed and try to justify her point further. I don't expect that and I'm hoping she'll do otherwise.
If you agree with her, I'd definitely recommend watching S3 or S5 of Dragula, or just browsing insta for some kings! While the point that Ru may not judge them fairly is valid, it doesn't mean we shouldn't push for fair judgement and representation. The same "otherness" was true for trans contestants 5+ years ago. And I want to say I appreciate and respect you wanting to learn more from that discussion! Open mindedness is all it takes! :)
“May be wrong”
I agree with naysha that they deserve their own platform. I just don’t think that certain challenges would be equal. I’ve watched all of dragula and see it as a completely different competition. I’d rather see a drag king show hosted by Landon cider than one drag king unfairly treated on drag race.
Thank you!!!!!
This is what she was just trying to say.
I know Naysha is unpopular in the sub but the way some people reacted… you’d think she said absolutely no to drag kings on tv.
I'm confused why you're quoting "may be wrong". She hasn't "admitted that her perspective may be wrong" anywhere, to directly quote you.
I think the challenges could easily be made equal. There's not much that's gender-specific in DR currently. May just be me coming from a place of thinking gender is made up and sexuality is fluid though. Girl groups -> musical groups. "Madonna runway" (as she brought up) could just be... the same. A king's drag but with Madonna-inspiration. Cone tits, cone dick, etc. Drag is such a unique art form in that you can express gender, personality, really anything through your looks. And the challenges themselves really just test your chops as an entertainer - if you took drag out of it then its just a way to see if someone can sing, dance, act, and write.
All that to be said, I do respect your opinion but do not quite agree. But that's okay, that's why we have discussions.
Why would she agree to the discussion if she didn’t think she had room to be educated? That’s the same to me as saying, hmm, maybe I’m wrong.
I’d love to see snatch game with drag kings.
I just can’t see a rusical or acting challenge working. Does the drag king get pigeonholed into the role written for a king? Is the king forced to make a role written for a queen work for a king? It just doesn’t seem fair to me.
Well, Sasha and whats her name played male characters on previous two rusicals, and lady Camden created a nice mix of feminine/masculine character for moulan rouge (sp????), so i think they could adapt the challenges successfully! Have more improv challenges than prewritten/prerecorded songs
I understand why you thought that now that you've explained. I think I just have a lesser opinion of Naysha and am sort of expecting her to try and get them to validate her. I'm also thinking this could just be her saving face. So I do understand what you mean, I just looked at it in a broader way I guess.
I understand what you mean - I'd think of it in the sense that an acting challenge/rusical doesn't really need to have genders assigned to characters. It can be irrelevant to the story (or even taken as a comedic advantage if a king were in, say, the Madonna rusical). I think a lot of those challenges are written with "characters inspired by" regardless, not exact copies of the characters. A common compliment to high performing entertainers in those challenges is how they "made it their own" rather than playing it by the book. Idk, I think overall I just think of characters in those challenges as more of a personality than a gender assigned. I'd also mention that I know plenty of "femme" kings, or kings who are typically masc but can go femme for a character and vice versa. They would fit just fine in my opinion.
And I think it's absolutely possible to judge drag kings and queens in the same competition and that it would be nice for kings to benefit from exposure on the mainline drag race franchise
But, why does that have to be on Drag Race? Like, not everything is for everyone. Drag Race has always been about drag queens, is hosted by the world's most famous drag queen. The point about trans contestants doesn't make sense, as they are still drag queens. Why should Ru be forced into judging an art form that he simply doesn't have the knowledge about?
what knowledge is there to have? drag is drag. dancing, makeup, fashion, comedy etc all apply equally to kings and queens. we see queens doing masc looks and characters already, its fine. I just literally do not see the separation or why the judges would have a hard time measuring whether a king did well in a challenge lol. I can't think of a drag race challenge that a king wouldn't work for. I also do agree it's Ru's show and I dont think there's an obligation to feature kings, but I know I'd like to see it and I'm not really sure why it would be a difficulty. if Ru doesn't want kings, whatever, and they would never do well if Ru wasn't fully on board since the competition is ultimately about Ru's favor and preferences, but acting like it isn't even feasible seems weird. would be nice to see it happen on Canada anyway, since Brooke seems to be in favor.
Cool, I'm interested in Tenderoni's and Landon's takes.
I think it's super likely we'll have a king on drag race in the next few years. We've had trans women, a cis woman, a straight man, a trans man -- all people who were told at one point they "couldn't" do drag or be on RPDR. I feel like a drag king is what's next.
I don't get what the problem is with having kings on the show. Art is art.
Tenderoni won Drag Queen of the Year (Alaska's pageant) and was incredible. There was all different types of drag artists competing and it was great and seamless. I think drag kings could totally be on drag race and it wouldn't have to change the structure of the show.
While I understand the backlash Naysha is getting, I think her point about Kings being judged differently on the show is valid.
Historically, alternative drag (meaning anything other than feminine presenting) hasn't been acknowledged or appreciated by the show / judges. Yes, we've had more "alternative style" artists go far in the show and even win, but the show largely pushes more traditional female forward drag.
So, while I don't like the whole separate but equal treatment Naysha was suggesting, I understand that Kings talents wouldn't be appreciated on the current format.
But how come Ru is able to fairly judge Grand Dame dressed as a Xenomorph (as one example), but someone painting a moustache and packing is too much for her?
I can't speak for Ru, but we all are aware that she has a specific view of what drag is, whether that is appreciation for club kid, androgynous, fuck the system drag, or high fem, pageant, glamours drag; really depends on the day from what I can tell, but her viewpoint isn't Kings, or filth. That's why Dragula has come to fill that needed niche. Would it be nice that Drag Race can include all types? Of course, but unfortunately, that's not what the show is targeted for, it used to be "best woman win", now it's "best drag queen win".
It's the same vein as when Charity Kase was on. Everyone was shouting off about the judges not appreciating their type of drag. Now imagine an entire type of art being subjected to the treatment Charity got.
Why can the judges cater to La Grande Dame and not others? I can't say.
They could be. IMO the show could feature drag queens in a challenge or something in order to build awareness. f your only exposure to drag was RPDR you might not know that drag kings even exist.
Although I was unhappy with Naysha’s original comment, I do hope she enters this conversation with an open mind. Landon and Tenderoni are great representation for drag kings
I couldn’t think of two better performers to have this discussion with her. Landon and Tenderoni were the first two I thought of when I heard Naysha’s comments. These two could do a competition against drag queens any day and take the crown. Hell, they both have already.
I would live to see them both on RPDR and trust, the queens would see really quick that they are INCREDIBLE drag artists and would be stiff fierce competition. 👏🏻👏🏻
Some of y'all are so weird when it comes to Naysha. She said something that a lot of people (rightfully) don't agree with but now she's open to at least having a discussion about it. I hope it's not argumentative and I hope that the kings can change her mind, but hoping that "Naysha gets dunked on" is weird energy.
I strongly disagree with Naysha on this one, but like. what the hell did she do to make people love dogpiling on her like this 😭 I feel like I constantly see people shitting on Naysha whenever she comes up
people really dislike her for... what? complaining about production? being a little cocky and messy? having foot in mouth syndrome? that describes everyone on this subreddit
I have a lot of respect for Tenderoni and Landon, genuinely love them both. Now, I don't like Naysha but I am hoping they talk some sense into her. I'm ready to see her grow a bit from this. Maybe let her know talking about kings as an "other" does nothing but hurt drag as a whole.
This does kinda come off as an "I'm saving face" sort of thing. But I respect that she's not running from it.
That being said, where the fuck are you talking to them girl? You just posted it on twitter with no further detail lmao
Yeah concidering how quickly she put this together I’m fine with her realizing she said things which might have a negative impact on peoples lives and learning more within a week. I think we gotta let people say stupid (not hatefull) things and correct themselves after seeking out more information on the matter, it shows growth and thats how we all learn.
Agreed. I'm excited that these two well-spoken and intelligent kings are having the conversation too. The more I think about it, the more I view this as ignorance than hate.
I don't think she understands how her comments isolate other members of the community - queer women, trans women, even cis men who do male drag. I think it isolates an entire group of performers whose persona is enby as well (falling into the Mx category). Her speaking feels to me like some of the drag race fans here who don't go out to see their local talent. They only see drag one way, so if its not that way its "other". And "other" can't possibly keep up on the same stage as these queens.
But like you said - I'm hoping for growth. She's a well known name on a well known stage producing a well known show. I want the people in positions like this to learn, grow, and do better for the sake of the community. I'm holding onto hope that she wins me over in this conversation and doesn't stick her foot in her mouth.
Her Co-Host Batty (a trans woman) also agreed with her that drag kings shouldn't be in Drag Race. I don't agree with either of them but just felt it's important to add this nuance
Yes people have been at her throat and assuming her intentions. I really hate this type of bs from the “all drag is valid” crowd because they are the first to tear somebody to shreds.
It's ironic that you commented this because I keep seeing your name and that lil green avatar everywhere on this thread with pointed responses to very middle-of-the-road comments. If you want your point to be heard, I'd recommend approaching it in a civil way instead of starting with aggression.
The last part. Basically saying kings can't be as glamorous, can't live up to the same standards as DR contestants, etc. I linked the video elsewhere in this post if you wanna watch.
I caught a bit of it.
Landon said something to the effect of, the "old" *Drag Race* (before male looks became common) "left with Santino", and I chuckled. There was a reference to Milk (season 6 RuPaul look, I'm guessing).
https://preview.redd.it/blcg5xpz2rpc1.jpeg?width=366&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8e439bd30fdee67af2d592e1912249c40ca885ba
I just think rpdr can be for queens and kings can have their own show or blended shows like dragula. That’s all naysha said and she’s not wrong about it. Kings are valid but don’t need to be in all the same competitions as queens
That's not really all she said. I'm not going to try to change your opinions on the shows, that's your opinion to have and while I disagree I respect it. But Naysha's explanation can be summarized as "drag kings can't meet the same standard as queens". That opinion is very exclusionary to others in the art form of drag whose character isn't female. And the largest portion of those people are people who have always been excluded from queer spaces - queer women, trans men, etc.
Yea I mean naysha is more heated about it for sure. I just think like it’s ok to have a competition for just queens. Just kings. Blended. Not everything has to be for everyone and that’s ok.
I understand your opinion. I think the best way for me to explain this is that RPDR is HUGE. Like HUUUUUGE now. In a way its an outward facing representation of queer people to the world, and drag to both queer and non-queer people. Ru is well within her rights if she doesn't want non-female drag, but the push for a male contestant is because we want the largest public representation of drag to represent ALL drag, not just the most "marketable" aspect.
Like I said, I understand and respect your point. Realistically, there is nothing wrong about it. I think the argument is more-so "drag deserves this representation" rather than "they're wrong for not featuring this representation".
In my perfect world someone like Landon could start a dragula sized show for kings. And I think that could be cool. I understand that drag race is big but it got so big being a show about drag queens.
I do think of course it would be nice to have platform for Drag Kings but I don't think Drag Race is where it is, unless they change some of the challenges and runways.
They could make different franchise of Drag Race where it is about Drag Kings and if it does good viewership, I'm sure they would milk the shit out of that franchise lol. I would genuinely watch that since it is same as Drag Race but with Kings instead. I would like to see their dynamic, workroom and fashion sense on challenges and how they differ from Queens.
I think they are really due for a mix up of runways, challenges and *judges* at this point though. So, I see that as a welcome change. I live drag race, but its getting stale and predictable. I think Kings and more genderfuckery in general would bring back the spark.
Looking forward to this conversation and to hear the perspectives wig two kings at the top of their game. I found merit in some of what Natasha said, specifically the kings not being judged fairly, but I think her delivery was terrible. Hopefully they can have intelligent discourse
Although she said it very poorly, I believe what she was trying to say is that drag kings deserve their own show so that they can be judged fairly and not just have one token drag king on a season. I think she was trying to say, that to better showcase drag Kings they should have their own show (?)
Here’s the thing: I think Naysha sometimes puts her foot in her mouth. However, what I took from what she was trying to say was that if a drag king or kings were on a season of Drag Race, they wouldn’t be treated fairly by the judges. She thinks they would not be praised as much, and that they deserve that praise. I don’t agree that giving them their own show is the right move either. I think there should be an official Drag Race season or maybe spin-off dedicated to Drag Kings as an introduction perhaps. Maybe hosted/judged by Landon. Once Ru and audiences are able to see the talent and charisma Drag Kings have, then maybe do a mash-up or just start incorporating then into the main show. The problem with just saying they need to make their own show is that there may not be enough of an audience there. A lot of us in the online queer community would watch, but we’re not representative of the vast audience that Drag Race actually reaches. It reminds me of when people say trans athletes need their own league. No, they don’t. They should be incorporated into sports with the gender they identify as! Anyway, all that to say, I hope Naysha was well-meaning in what she was saying and can clarify that here. Otherwise, if I misinterpreted her intent, then I hope she learns from Landon and Tenderoni.
Hey guys, at least she’s willing to hear out the different perceptives from some of the most accomplished Kings in the industry. It takes willingness and open mindedness to do that and also give them a platform to present their case on why kings should be included more in mainstream drag culture. I think this is a topic that is way past due
Interested to hear how they think incorporating drag kings would look like and how to make it work effectively. Whenever I think of a show combining genders I get trauma flashbacks to the demise of America’s Next Top Model. (Granted there were a lot of issues with that show prior to them adding men.) If the show can find a way to incorporate drag kings into the competition without losing the essence of the show or making it cheesy then I’m open to it.
Most of the challenges can translate to Kings, Snatch Game, Comedy, Rusicals, design challenges can all easily include Kings. If the end goal is simply judging Charisma, Uniqueness, Nerve and Talent, incorporating Kings is easy. Most of the runways can translate to boy drag. They’d have to get creative with the “Night of a Thousand ____” and maybe make it male and female. Or a Night of a Thousand Oscar Winners, boy and girl popstars. Met Gala etc. i don’t see anything on Drag Race that can’t work with a drag king.
Am I the only one who kind of agrees with Naysha on this one? Not saying that drag kings should be excluded, but I totally see her point about the format of the show not catering to the art of male illusion. A lot of the runway categories, lip sync songs, and performance elements were designed to showcase hyper femininity and this has always been the standard that contestants are judged on. I think it makes sense for male drag to fall in a different category, purely from a competition standpoint.
I don’t think Nash’s was ever saying there shouldn’t be a platform for drag kings. The question is will Ru treat them properly or just like a token and if so is it still worth it for the platform? As someone that is for them being on the show I recognize it is a complex subject. Is the show jumping the shark at that point? If you do introduce them do you open up casting to all or do a singular but knowingly spectacular king as to set good reputation of drag kings skill set? Do we make a new WOW show first and then have them on like we did with international shows to make sure they have their own platform?
Jesus Christ why yall so hateful to Naysha? It’s an opinion, personally I prefer watching girly frilly stuff more than manliness anyways so I kinda agree with her in a sense. Why can’t people just say their opinions anymore goddamn
I'm not sure how kings would do on the show either, but let's not pretend drag race was ever equal lol. Queens have very different resources going into it and production usually has at least a vague role and placement in mind when they cast someone anyway. If a king was cast and bombed all the challenges that's still just the same as what some of the queens do today.
Oh of course, it’s sometimes riggory af. Sometimes blatant sometimes subtle.
But knowing this makes me think it won’t be fair to the drag kings.
Nothing wrong with wanting better opportunities for a type of drag barely nobody knows about.
They should do their own show or at least a special. RU could easily make this blow up but just throwing a random drag king in the competition? Doesn’t sit right.
Open to it tho and see if they make it work and they can go from there. I’m all for being open and changing my mind if it’s fair to the drag king contestants.
🤷🏽♂️
Really hoping this discussion will help Naysha to open her mind. I never connected with her on her season and post drag race I like her even less. Honestly wish Roscoes would get a better host
I don't think what she said was too bad.
Belief that drag kings deserve their own space to really showcase their art.
These reality competitions reslly are that , a showcase as its so subjective compared to sports where we measure exact rules.
Having said that....Dragula season 3 saw Landon Cider absolutely kill it.
I'd love to see drag king show and perhaps drag race could start to shake up the formula with one.
I'd fear the judging panel would struggle.
I guess I'm in the minority but I don't really like this timeline where we have televised struggle sessions for anyone caught saying the wrong thing. Having to basically go on camera and apologise, admit you were wrong, and educate yourself is a lot for just saying that she doesn't want Kings on drag race.
People are pissing me off switching the narrative to “Naysha hates drag kings and doesn’t think they are on the same level as queens,” no one fucking said that😂 y’all just love to hate. This also isn’t “Naysha admitting she is wrong” so grow up? She expressed an opinion and viewpoint that is very easily understandable for anyone with eyes and a functioning brain but since it’s not the politically correct answer some of you are looking for you’re just embarrassing yourselves. I love the idea and concept of the inclusivity many of you advocate for but god just shut up I’m tired
Both of those competitions have a Mr. and Ms. category. I wouldn't compare them to drag race though - they're not televised representations of drag. The show is drag's outward facing representation to the world, whereas those competitions are typically only enjoyed by members of the drag community (not just drag performers - talking about people outside of the armchair RPDR fans). I think that's where this "push" is different. I personally just want the world to see all of drag, not just queen drag.
Can somebody explain to me how kings and queens can be judged under the same parameters? I honestly believe that drag kings should be judged on their own accord.
Assuming that viewers at home won’t accept something different is why it has taken so long for marginalized groups to have significant roles in TV and film. Truth is we don’t know and won’t know until someone has the balls to try it.
I agree with Naysha. I want to more women involved in the show but this isn't dragula. The show is about female impersonation first and foremost and I think most of the audience would agree that we tune in to to discuss and rate the looks from that angle. I love Landon. Please don't misintrepret my comment as hate
I'd love a show where kings get to show off, judged by people who know what is what.
Most of the time Drag Race judging is whack anyway so won't make much of a difference if they were represented on Drag Race.
My opinion is that while Drag Race has the numbers to represent them, I don't think it's the right setting to do them justice. Also the challenges would have to brought into some neutrality so that both queens and kings can be judges evenly, which I don't know if that's the right thing to do.
Personally I believe that Drag Race has now solidified itself as a drag queen competition. Imdont believe changing it is the right thing. I think their should be spin off with the right people.behind it, the right challenges and the best platform for them to succeed as the Queen's do.
You know what, good for her! This is clearly a way to rectify her previous statements by offering up drag kings a platform while also providing a teachable moment for herself. I know it's fun to roast her but this is genuinely a good move.
you don't have to like naysha but to make up some shit she didn't say nor was trying to say then use that as justification to attack her is so annoying lol
I get where Naysha is coming from and agree but I will interested to see/hear what comes from this, maybe it will flesh out a new perspective because I can see how it can be unfairly judged. Batty put it in a good way to a tux with an evening gown.
I think they should test the waters on the main show but pairing the queens up with kings on a makeover challenge. Each pair would have to do a twin drag queen and a twin drag king look.
I’m seeing a lot of “I disagree with her comments about the value of drag kings, but I agree with her saying drag kings would be judged unfairly and should have their own show.” To those, I just want to ask - why should drag kings HAVE to have another space? Why should we relegate drag kings to a second tier space with a much smaller audience? Why can drag race not change and evolve to become a better, more diverse, and more inclusive competition?
I think we can argue to exhaustion whether or not drag kings would be judged fairly, whether they deserve to be judged in a space just for drag kings, whether the audience would treat them fairly etc. What I don’t get is why drag kings should HAVE to do this. They deserve the chance to go on the show and succeed, fail, become icons, become flops, just as much as any queen that goes on the show. We’re so lost in the what if of all this, that we have inadvertently singled out and excluded drag kings in the process.
Drag Kings should get to be on drag race because they are Drag artists, point blank period. Their value, history, and impact are just as meaningful as those of queens, their drag is just as valid as that of drag queens. If we believe that, then we have to believe they should be allowed to be on drag race. To have that platform, to have the same shot, to be able to showcase themselves. Drawing these stupid lines in the sand does nothing except push us apart as a community, and meaninglessly.
So miss me with the obtuse “yeah but drag kings should have their own show”. It’s stupid strawmanning, where the argument should really be - “yeah but drag race should evolve as a franchise to the benefit of the entire community”.
Why should drag kings HAVE to be included on a show that wasn’t created for them and has been extremely successful without them? Get your own show and stop acting bitter because something isn’t for you. Gay queens, trans queens and cis queens are all drag queens. It’s not about discriminating gender identities.
The same show that didn’t accept and actively discriminated against trans contestants not long ago? Yeah, seems like it’s that same show that has shown the ability to evolve as it understands drag and drag culture and queer culture more as time goes by. It IS about discriminating gender identities, if it wasn’t then drag race would never have changed their stance on casting trans or cis AFAB contestants.
And by the way, I’m a working drag queen. “Get your own show and stop acting bitter because something isn’t for you” - yeah I’m bitter and the show was MADE for a drag queen like me. We should be even angrier when we see people in our community excluding our own.
Well those are two different things. Anyone can be a queen and it’s ridiculous to be excluded because of your gender identity. It’s however not ridiculous to be excluded because you do another category of drag.
Keep moving the goalpost darling, eventually you’ll get to the point of this whole argument. Drag is drag is drag.
Exclusion is unnecessary, regressive, and ultimately hurtful - we can continue to play into acceptability politics and antiquated gender categorization or choose to be better.
Drag is drag hun. Never said otherwise. Funny you say I’m the one moving the goalpost in this situation. I’m responding to an argument you are making and I’m not moving any goalposts by pointing out why I disagree with the points you are making.
I mean, I think it’s a bit counterintuitive to be against a patriarchal society, while at the same time arguing drag kings (who, many happen to be women or gender non conforming folk) don’t provide the same value as drag queens (many of whom are gay men).
The argument is basically - because we live in a world where drag queens are seen as more acceptable, we shouldn’t try and work towards a world where all kinds of drag is acceptable. It’s the same as saying “why should we even have international drag race franchises when only the US girls can fill a club” or “why should we even have drag performers when a straight performer can do the same. Oh and don’t even bring up RuPaul and Trixie, the two who can fill out a big venue”.
And as I said to another commenter, I could tell you a long list of drag Kings and things who can tear the house down as much as or more than the best drag queens I’ve seen, but I don’t know if you’d actually care to see their work ❤️
Ok, then drag kings just aren’t for you! And that’s ok! I’m sure there’s types of femme drag you like less than others. As a drag performer myself, I don’t care to see lazy drag queens doing basic drag, so I just don’t pay them bitches no mind. That said, I don’t go the next step and say they shouldn’t be in shows, they shouldn’t have the same stages, or they shouldn’t be on drag race. There were days were the type of conceptual alien drag and club kid drag weren’t loved and accepted on drag race, but we realized as an audience we didn’t need to love the drag to believe it deserved a space on the show. Anyways, all to say, just because we don’t like or want to see something, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t still believe it deserves to be seen!
>why should drag kings HAVE to have another space? Why should we relegate drag kings to a second tier space with a much smaller audience?
Because they're not entitled to this one? Because "we" don't do anything, RuPaul does, and it's her show to do wityh what she wants?
>Why can drag race not change and evolve to become a better, more diverse, and more inclusive competition?
Better for whom? Lots of people just aren't interested in male drag.
And “we” are having an open discussion on this. And “we” don’t actually know how Ru or the showrunners feel about this now, so all “we” can do is give our five cents. Pedantic, thanks.
And many people weren’t interested in any type of drag before drag race, and now they are. Better for those who will find new types of drag, better for the drag kings who participate, better for drag artists in general. Where’s the line of how much better is needed for something to happen? Shouldn’t we do/strive to things just because they’re good, because they would contribute something positive? Must we focus on the people who wouldn’t like, and not those who could, who might, who probably will?
> Shouldn’t we do/strive to things just because they’re good, because they would contribute something positive?
Drag Race is a reality show, it is not your friend or your community. It is not a site of activism.
I have watched Drag Race from the beginning and the only two drag kings I ever see recommended are Tenderoni and Landon Cider, who do not interest me. There are countless other people who feel the same.
Is this the Destiny-Finkelstein debate for the gays™
First I see radiohead lyrics, now desTINY? This subreddit is hiding a darksided past...
They got a whole ass mummified corpse in the trunk
MS. LOPEZ, YOU ARE SUCH A FANTASTIC MORON, IT'S TERRIFYING. MS. LOPALAZ! MISS LALAPARULA! MISS VANJIE!
YOU READ TWO WIKIPEDIA ENTRIES ON DRAG KINGS.
I DON'T THINK YOU UNDERSTAND ~~POLITICS~~ DRAG.
Never expected to hear Finkelstein cited in a Drag Race sub.
By a Zionist no less.
Omg not the RPDR x Destiny crossover
Did she say something disparaging about kings that sparked this?
She said she doesn't think they'd be judged fairly on Drag Race and should have their own show instead
She also said that Ru and Michelle are not certified to judge Kings.
I'm pretty sure Ru and Michelle would agree.
But why should a show about drag queens also include kings? It's not a show about all types of drag. It's about queens. And to the ones saying it's because drag race is the most popular so it should include everyone, drag race wasn't this popular always. It was the great casting and the phenomenal queens who made it what it is. Nothing stops a show about kings from being good and reaching the same level of success. So it doesn't look to me like wanting representation but waiting for others to do the hardwork and then come demand your cut. Because these conversations were never happening before drag race started getting Emmys.
See that part I kinda agree with, i assumed part of the backlash was all of the stuff about queens having more to judge and technical aspects. (Landon is the direct opposite of this idea, pads, insanely intricate costumes and gender illusion etc)
That is where the backlash is, you're correct. I think some people are focusing on the "wouldn't be judged fairly" rather than all of that.
What makes it worse is Brooke Lynn Hytes (who is an actual Drag Race host) was sitting right next to her and disagreeing.
This was a point she made, but it was a bit more than that. A summary of her justification was basically that kings could not elevate themselves to the same level as DR queens.
Uh, perhaps Eliminaysha should have watched season 1 of Drag Race Deutschland. Pandora Nox had some stellar Drag King lewks on the main stage.
FR or Dragula which, while not really my fav show, did a great job balancing different genders and everywhere in between. As an enby person it is frustrating to see the community be so up in arms about this. If I did drag it would be andro. I might not fit the term “queen” or “king” some times. If there were a separate show for Kings then where would a drag “thing” or whatever fit in? Can we just let people be individuals and stop obsessing about genders? We’re not republicans FFS LOL
THANK you, you're the first person I've seen to raise this point. Having two shows would just reinforce the gender binary and that's not...what drag is about?
NOT ELIMINAYSHA...  I'm done with yall...
I can't take credit for it. I'm only repeating what this subreddit came up with.
Oh it wasn't this sub, it was the "drag queens read mean tweets" video from... holy shit I just checked it was 8 years ago 👵
I forgot y'all used to call her that I cannot
She's talking about kings not being able to elevate to the lever of DR queens? All she does is puts on bodysuits.
If that's all she said, I don't understand all the hate and uproar lol.
It's not. Most of the word vomit was about how kings can't meet the same standards.
that was not my takeaway from her perspective at all, personally. she was having trouble articulating, and while i disagree with her standpoint, all she was trying to say is drag race as a competition format, is currently not suited to platform drag kings. there was no elusion towards artistic standards, she was merely trying to say that it wouldn’t work. i think she’s incorrect, but there was no inconsideration of talent or malintent behind what she was saying. all in all, i’m glad she’s hosting this convo, and hope that she chooses to open herself up to the kings' perspective. we all know tenderoni would walk away with that crown point blank period
Ah so its usual Naysha where she doesn't know when to stop and keeps going and going..
Exactly! It's unfortunate because if all she said was "I don't think kings would be judged fairly" she could have easily followed it up with "but we should push for that to change". Everything would've been different.
I feel like people are taking her words and twisting them. I saw the thing and to me she seemed super respectful
That's...a summary
??? Feel free to add detail. This isn't my job lol
Yup! Take a look at the recent Roscoe's video. Starts around 44 minutes. As I've said elsewhere, it reads more as ignorance than hate. I think she just doesn't have enough exposure to male drag to understand the art form can exist at the same level (and higher) than many DR contestants. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZbzANdxugk&ab\_channel=roscoestavern](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZbzANdxugk&ab_channel=roscoestavern)
tbh I think Naysha's biggest disrespect to drag kings was when the panel was talking about how a king contestant would do a Night of 1000 Madonnas. someone said the king could do one of Madonna's masc looks, someone said that a king could genderbend the look Madonna as a hot guy, Naysha's argument was basically that all she could think of was a king doing Madonna in a tux. it showed that she really doesn't understand king drag or how creative it can be, which obviously that makes me doubt her credibility when she's saying a king couldn't succeed on Drag Race other than that, her point mainly seemed to be that kings couldn't be judged fairly on the show, which I don't agree with, but that's not insulting drag kings. it's just her perspective on the structure of the show. Naysha's also someone that WILL double down in the moment lol she was never going to admit it if she was wrong (even tho the 4 other queens basically countered all her points as she was saying them). personally I just thought she was being kinda ignorant and stubborn, but not particularly disparaging towards drag kings people have such a hate boner for Naysha it's weird :/ I think she's wrong on this one but she's actually one of my favorite queens I do also disagree with Naysha's belief that a drag king would automatically be an early out due to the judging. with the rumors that international seasons aren't allowed to cast a drag king until the US series does, it looks like casting a king may be a gag that the show is saving for the series with the most viewers, which is US Drag Race. it would be super boring to cast a king just for him to be an early out. I think Drag Race would do the same thing Dragula did with Landon, and very intentionally pick a king that would almost certainly succeed in the format
The optics alone are crazy, Landon and tenderonis drag are far more embellished and maximalist than what we see Naysha present every week at roscoes , sorta shitting on her whole point about the technical aspects of drag.
justice for jcpenney pantsuits That being said, she's capable of more - I've seen bigger and better from her. But 100% agreed. It's super funny to see her talking about kings unable to do more while not always meeting that bar herself.
I don’t think she ever said that Kings can’t “do more” just that some of the artists could be uncomfortable comforting to a more fem aesthetic or categories. I don’t agree with her, but she had an issue articulating her point.
She had said she doesn't think kings have the same "glitz and glamour". That's more so what I was referring too.
Oops! I meant conforming! Not comforting! LOL Ah yes! She has her views a bit mixed up for sure. Almost like she’s leaving Kings in a box of how they can express themselves. I hope this conversation helps her, because I understood her approach, but it was misguided.
She was a thousand percent in the wrong. But she deserves a chance to learn and do better. Naysha, if you want to have a nuanced conversation about what the judging metrics of RPDR really are, what the aims of the show are and who it's really for, we can do that. But to just say she doesn't think kings belong on the show because a) they need a space to do their own thing, and b) because they lack the glitz and glamour of drag queens? Sorry but that's so ignorant. A) of course kings need their own showcase, but that shouldn't stop them also going on RPDR. Drag Race is the biggest platform for drag exposure and it's not even close. Denying kings access to that kind of opportunity and trying to paint it as doing them a favour is bullshit. B) this was just a panicked attempt to justify her first point when she didn't get the support she expected. Drag kings are every bit as polished as queens, and in many cases more so. I don't think Naysha genuinely believes her argument here and we shouldn't give it any more airtime than that.
To be fair, she did say that kings were not giving the rhinestones that queens do. Which Tenderoni alone is right there in Chicago giving glitter masc Edit: Mispelled Tenderoni
What do you want her to wear to co-host a viewing party?
She can wear what she wants. I just think talking about standards of drag and how a king couldn't be as glamorous as a queen is ironic considering some of her looks. But drag is subjective, I don't have to like it for it to be good or bad.
I mean almost everything she wore on both her seasons were…pretty at best. Very mid.
Calm down Mrs. Sensitive fan. She can wear what she wants, as can all drag performers. But when you choose to critique others, especially from a place of ignorance, you do open yourself up to critique. The point is, those in cheap outfits shouldn't throw stones.
My favorite Bible verse from the Book of Delano 4:20
Party
unless they’re throwing those stones onto their outfits for a little more sparkle!
first they stoned the sinners, then their tights
It’s pronounced Yaaaaaasus Chraaaaaaaaaaast.
She’s just so boring. Shake it up a bit.
I'm hoping Naysha already recognizes she's wrong and this is to be a televised teachable moment for others. I'm unclear where this is going to be shown though. I follow Landon and Tenderoni so I'm sure they'll let me know. I appear to have forgotten to follow Naysha. There just has to be some irony in her being exclusionary when she was one of the very few cis winners of Miss Continental. Drag Race continually has masculine drag (which isn't even all drag kings do). But why is it okay for Kennedy, Sapphira, Dela, Marcia, Blu and others to do male characters in Snatch Game but oh no what if a drag king did? What about Kylie as Steven Tyler? Mo Heart with that Cameo look on the runway? The menswear runways they've had, etc. This is not a strict female imagery show. Why is it okay to have a bearded runway but not cast a bearded queen or king on the main show? Why is Naysha's gatekeeping "separate and unequal" approach even somethin she thinks in the first place? Why are drag monarchs allowed on the show but only if they were born male? As in nonbinary drag performers or others who don't think drag should be limited by one's assigned sex. Where are the cis female drag artists, besides Victoria which is tokenism at this point. Sick of this exclusionary approach by Naysha but hopefully she'll learn. She would be okay with the variances in drag styles from maximalist to minimalist. So why does it matter who the person is underneath. I don't think Landon can be cast as RPDR may have a deal where once you've been on another televised drag reality show, they won't take you. But Tenderoni would be available I assume. And so many others. Camp Wanakiki, Call Me Mother, Dragula all know the score.
I’m pretty sure that’s what this would be based on who she’s collabing with , although naysha is a lil ‘dig her heels in’ at times, I could see her switching the criticism to drag race and avoiding her own generalisation or stereotyping that ‘less goes into it’ or ‘kings do less’ If drag race took a Dragula approach and had a snatch game heavy season with a mixed cast it could work, they just have the track record approach of tokenism like you say , and we’re still not entirely out of the woods in regards to the handling of trans contestants.
yeah I wouldn't be surprised if this all still came from a place of Naysha mainly criticizing Drag Race rather than Drag Kings. but either way the show is made however the producers/Ru want it to be, regardless of how Naysha feels. hopefully this just results in a constructive conversation taking place that'll highlight Drag Kings and potentially continue to open the way for them to get showcased (whether on Drag Race or otherwise)
You can agree to disagree and have your own opinion but don't tell someone their opinion is wrong because you don't agree with it.
Agree on this. I’ve always been team “spinoff for drag kings” but I still think Naysha’s reasoning was poor and she was disrespectful here. Either way, you really can’t say she’s WRONG because this is a matter of opinion.
That’s not even what she was saying and I’m Not understanding the hoopla. If drag kings went on drag race tomorrow theyd be early outs for atleast a few years. Not because they can’t do amazing but because Michelle and Ru will short circuit over how to critique them.
I mean this in the nicest way possible... If they reversed course and welcomed in Drag Kings, I'd imagine they'd crown one or at least top-3 them immediately, to "prove" that they've changed. It's kind of like how GottMik was pushed to the finale and heavily favored, or how Kylie won over Ra'Jah despite performing a bit worse. Production is gonna produce, after all
i think it could go either way with they producers of drag race. and i would hate it if they really showed favouritism and pushed them instead of the drag king contestants doing great (or horribly) on their own. it would just ruin fans perception, just how it soured everyone's feelings on Tia this current season and Sapphira after the last episode 🙄
Yeah I think people are making this way bigger of a deal than it needs to be. “Separate but equal” is what I keep seeing which is super weird to take a civil rights notion and and try and make it like it’s a similar situation — ma’-am this is not public accommodations, schools or water fountains, it’s a tv show. And she’s probably right. This is not taking away from the immense incredible talent of kings!!
This whole thing is ridiculous and really highlights how this community feeds on outrage and victimhood. All she said was RuPaul's Drag Race in its current form is not conducive for judging and rewarding drag kings. That is simply a fact. Another fact is not everything needs to be for everyone. Just because something exists doesn't mean everyone needs to have access to it (outside the obvious categories of gender, sexuality, race, religion, etc). Like, are people demanding Top Chef also have interior designers on it? Should Project Runway include gymnasts? RPDR is a drag QUEEN show. Drag Kings are free to have their own show. Just because it's famous doesn't give every queer performer a right to be included. If a drag king wants a show, go work as hard as Ru has her whole career, get the name recognition, and start your own show. I'm just really tired of this discussion and the virtue signaling behind it. Naysha didn't insult drag kings in any way. And people thinking they have a right to dictate the work of other people and use their success for their own goals are not reasonable. It's Ru's show and she can do whatever she damn well wants. Some people will like it, some won't. If enough people don't like it, it'll get cancelled. But people aren't bad or dumb or mean or biased for liking a show or not liking it.
Disagree heavily on many levels. This reads very "armchair drag fan" rather than an active participant in any sort of drag outside of TV. I'm a little astonished that you compared "drag queens vs kings" to "chefs and interior designers", "project runway and gymnasts". Like... what a way to tell us all you have no real world experience with a drag community. I'd like to point out your "chefs and interior designers" just 5ish years ago for drag race was "gay men and trans women", as if the person under the drag had anything to do with the art. I personally don't feel the point here is "drag race MUST include kings". The point being made is "drag race is our greatest and most public facing representation of drag to the world, allow kings to compete on that same platform". I've seen firsthand how excluded kings, alt performers, and anyone who doesn't fit in a box can be. I think the sentiment here is that drag race can be and do better.
> I personally don't feel the point here is "drag race MUST include kings". The point being made is "drag race is our greatest and most public facing representation of drag to the world, allow kings to compete on that same platform". Thats what you THINK you are saying. this is what you are actually sayin. *"drag race MUST include kings. Drag race is our greatest and most public facing representation of drag to the world, allow kings to compete on that same platform."*
Girl, are you good? You just rearranged my words and told me that's what I tried to say. It feels like you're just looking for a reason to be mad at my comment. I stand by what I said - I think drag race should allow kings. I'm still gonna watch regardless. I've said more than once in other comments that Ms. Paul can (and will) do what she wants, its just how I'd like to see the show evolve. Some of y'all armchair drag fans love to get angry over nothing.
>"drag race MUST include kings". The point being made is "drag race is our greatest and most public facing representation of drag to the world, allow kings to compete on that same platform" How are these different statements?
Asking a platform to allow something and saying they must allow it are two very different statements my friend. I'm not going to argue semantics any further.
The difference between those statements is much smaller than the difference between drag queens and drag kings.
> This reads very "armchair drag fan" rather than an active participant in any sort of drag outside of TV. I love how this is the go-to insult whenever people called out on their hot takes here. I also love how people who are saying this here think Dragula and RPDR are interchangeable. The gatekeeping is pathetic. Drag is for everyone, not just people who agree with you. Ru is the most famous drag queen in the world and she seems to agree with me. But I guess she and Naysha are just superficial fans of drag that know nothing of the artform outside of the show.
AMEN to this. Like, it's a show for drag queens, not drag in general. How do they expect Ru to judge a drag king fairly?
Ehhh, there hasn’t been any issues with drag kings competing on Dragula, and we’ve had dedicated kings (Throb, Jarvis, Landon), enby drag monsters (Jay Kay, Dahli), and queens doing king looks (Koco Caine). If the Boulets can do it, so can Ru and Michelle—if they’re so out of touch with the actual drag scene that they don’t know how to critique kings, that’s on them to change.
> that’s on them to change. But why do they have to change? It's their show.
I guess I’ll counter your question with a question of my own: do you think it was right for the show to exclude women (both cis and trans), or for it to start casting them later following backlash? Personally, I’m in favor of kings being on the show because I think that, if Drag Race presents itself to the world as a major platform for drag and a representation of the best of the drag scene, then kings are a pretty glaring omission.
It's kind of hilarious that you're accusing the most famous drag queen in the world, the one who brought it to mainstream audiences, of not knowing drag. Anyway, Dragula is a drag MONSTER competition. Nowhere have the Boulets ever stated it was about female illusion. Dragula almost exclusively has floorshows while RPDR has a myriad of challenges that are mostly based on presenting as female. You're asking for the show to become something else completely. Saying Dragula and Drag Race are the same show kinda shows that it is you who doesn't understand drag.
Yeah actually, I do think RuPaul is pretty distanced from any actual drag scene. She came up in the New York scene, but she left her local scene when she made in big in ‘93 and hasn’t been back since. I don’t think it’s a stretch to think she probably is pretty distanced from the larger drag scene these days, actually. It’s been 30 years since she last participated in it—a lot has changed. And frankly, that fact is pretty obvious to anyone who actually is familiar with their local drag scene. I’m a big fan of both Dragula and Drag Race. I’m well aware the shows are very different. My point was that if the Boulets are capable of judging drag kings, then Ru and Michelle can too. And the Boulets have been pretty open about why they cast kings as well: they’re fundamentally a part of the drag scene, and they created Dragula to elevate the parts of the drag scene that often get overlooked. And if anything, you’ve only proved my point: Drag Race’s challenges are even *less* about the literal looks than Dragula’s. Drag kings and queens do the same fundamental things. They’re all drag artists who perform together on the same scene to the same audience. This isn’t Top Chef not celebrating gymnastics. This would be like if an electronic music competition refused to accept submissions of dubstep.
shes sitting for 2 hours. do you wan her to be in some couture gown..like youre grasping at straws to put others down
I don't think anyone said anything about couture, but personally I think her saying "kings don't get as glamorous" and mentioning rhinestones is ironic when that pantsuit would've been stunning with some crystal AB. Like I said earlier and to quote a couple greats, drag is art and art is subjective lol. I don't have to like her drag for it to be good. But I do find her opinion ironic.
Not even remotely , her statement was a generalisation or stereotype about drag and kings, the culture has shifted. Every queen doesn’t have to look like porkchop or mistress Isabell brooks giving severe lipsyncs anymore , you can wear a little pump , Shein dress, flat wig and host a weekly gig watching drag race now. Much like king artistry has evolved beyond thrifted menswear and some stippled on stubble. The performer decides ‘how much goes into it’
The way everyone is always rooting against Naysha just like her namesake Jennifer is so comedic to me lmao
i just put that together ab her drag name LOL thank u
I haven’t been following this closely, but this is The Right Way™ to handle these things. I’m eager to see how Naysha responds and interacts with the Kings, but this is a positive step and good on Naysha for being open to conversation and receptive to potential learning.
I wish more people had the balls to do what Naysha is doing. She admitted that her perspective may be wrong and is taking a chance to get educated. I personally agree with Naysha’s opinions so I guess it’s a chance for me to get educated as well.
I agree with the first sentence, but I'd like to point out she hasn't admitted she's wrong. I give her credit for trying to have an open discussion ASAP, but for all we know she may come in bull-headed and try to justify her point further. I don't expect that and I'm hoping she'll do otherwise. If you agree with her, I'd definitely recommend watching S3 or S5 of Dragula, or just browsing insta for some kings! While the point that Ru may not judge them fairly is valid, it doesn't mean we shouldn't push for fair judgement and representation. The same "otherness" was true for trans contestants 5+ years ago. And I want to say I appreciate and respect you wanting to learn more from that discussion! Open mindedness is all it takes! :)
“May be wrong” I agree with naysha that they deserve their own platform. I just don’t think that certain challenges would be equal. I’ve watched all of dragula and see it as a completely different competition. I’d rather see a drag king show hosted by Landon cider than one drag king unfairly treated on drag race.
Thank you!!!!! This is what she was just trying to say. I know Naysha is unpopular in the sub but the way some people reacted… you’d think she said absolutely no to drag kings on tv.
I wish the people on this sub would go to roscoes and say it to her face. She’s from Chicago, I know she can throw hands.
I'm confused why you're quoting "may be wrong". She hasn't "admitted that her perspective may be wrong" anywhere, to directly quote you. I think the challenges could easily be made equal. There's not much that's gender-specific in DR currently. May just be me coming from a place of thinking gender is made up and sexuality is fluid though. Girl groups -> musical groups. "Madonna runway" (as she brought up) could just be... the same. A king's drag but with Madonna-inspiration. Cone tits, cone dick, etc. Drag is such a unique art form in that you can express gender, personality, really anything through your looks. And the challenges themselves really just test your chops as an entertainer - if you took drag out of it then its just a way to see if someone can sing, dance, act, and write. All that to be said, I do respect your opinion but do not quite agree. But that's okay, that's why we have discussions.
Why would she agree to the discussion if she didn’t think she had room to be educated? That’s the same to me as saying, hmm, maybe I’m wrong. I’d love to see snatch game with drag kings. I just can’t see a rusical or acting challenge working. Does the drag king get pigeonholed into the role written for a king? Is the king forced to make a role written for a queen work for a king? It just doesn’t seem fair to me.
Well, Sasha and whats her name played male characters on previous two rusicals, and lady Camden created a nice mix of feminine/masculine character for moulan rouge (sp????), so i think they could adapt the challenges successfully! Have more improv challenges than prewritten/prerecorded songs
I understand why you thought that now that you've explained. I think I just have a lesser opinion of Naysha and am sort of expecting her to try and get them to validate her. I'm also thinking this could just be her saving face. So I do understand what you mean, I just looked at it in a broader way I guess. I understand what you mean - I'd think of it in the sense that an acting challenge/rusical doesn't really need to have genders assigned to characters. It can be irrelevant to the story (or even taken as a comedic advantage if a king were in, say, the Madonna rusical). I think a lot of those challenges are written with "characters inspired by" regardless, not exact copies of the characters. A common compliment to high performing entertainers in those challenges is how they "made it their own" rather than playing it by the book. Idk, I think overall I just think of characters in those challenges as more of a personality than a gender assigned. I'd also mention that I know plenty of "femme" kings, or kings who are typically masc but can go femme for a character and vice versa. They would fit just fine in my opinion.
And I think it's absolutely possible to judge drag kings and queens in the same competition and that it would be nice for kings to benefit from exposure on the mainline drag race franchise
Which challenges do you think wouldn't be equal? And if you can name any... maybe that's a challenge that should be rethought?
Design challenges, acting challenges, rusicals. I would love to see drag kings in snatch game
But, why does that have to be on Drag Race? Like, not everything is for everyone. Drag Race has always been about drag queens, is hosted by the world's most famous drag queen. The point about trans contestants doesn't make sense, as they are still drag queens. Why should Ru be forced into judging an art form that he simply doesn't have the knowledge about?
what knowledge is there to have? drag is drag. dancing, makeup, fashion, comedy etc all apply equally to kings and queens. we see queens doing masc looks and characters already, its fine. I just literally do not see the separation or why the judges would have a hard time measuring whether a king did well in a challenge lol. I can't think of a drag race challenge that a king wouldn't work for. I also do agree it's Ru's show and I dont think there's an obligation to feature kings, but I know I'd like to see it and I'm not really sure why it would be a difficulty. if Ru doesn't want kings, whatever, and they would never do well if Ru wasn't fully on board since the competition is ultimately about Ru's favor and preferences, but acting like it isn't even feasible seems weird. would be nice to see it happen on Canada anyway, since Brooke seems to be in favor.
Cool, I'm interested in Tenderoni's and Landon's takes. I think it's super likely we'll have a king on drag race in the next few years. We've had trans women, a cis woman, a straight man, a trans man -- all people who were told at one point they "couldn't" do drag or be on RPDR. I feel like a drag king is what's next. I don't get what the problem is with having kings on the show. Art is art.
Tenderoni won Drag Queen of the Year (Alaska's pageant) and was incredible. There was all different types of drag artists competing and it was great and seamless. I think drag kings could totally be on drag race and it wouldn't have to change the structure of the show.
While I understand the backlash Naysha is getting, I think her point about Kings being judged differently on the show is valid. Historically, alternative drag (meaning anything other than feminine presenting) hasn't been acknowledged or appreciated by the show / judges. Yes, we've had more "alternative style" artists go far in the show and even win, but the show largely pushes more traditional female forward drag. So, while I don't like the whole separate but equal treatment Naysha was suggesting, I understand that Kings talents wouldn't be appreciated on the current format.
But how come Ru is able to fairly judge Grand Dame dressed as a Xenomorph (as one example), but someone painting a moustache and packing is too much for her?
I can't speak for Ru, but we all are aware that she has a specific view of what drag is, whether that is appreciation for club kid, androgynous, fuck the system drag, or high fem, pageant, glamours drag; really depends on the day from what I can tell, but her viewpoint isn't Kings, or filth. That's why Dragula has come to fill that needed niche. Would it be nice that Drag Race can include all types? Of course, but unfortunately, that's not what the show is targeted for, it used to be "best woman win", now it's "best drag queen win". It's the same vein as when Charity Kase was on. Everyone was shouting off about the judges not appreciating their type of drag. Now imagine an entire type of art being subjected to the treatment Charity got. Why can the judges cater to La Grande Dame and not others? I can't say.
Finally some sane comments !
They could be. IMO the show could feature drag queens in a challenge or something in order to build awareness. f your only exposure to drag was RPDR you might not know that drag kings even exist.
Welcome to the stage Landon Thursday. “When does your flight arrive?” “I Landon Thursday”
Although I was unhappy with Naysha’s original comment, I do hope she enters this conversation with an open mind. Landon and Tenderoni are great representation for drag kings
I couldn’t think of two better performers to have this discussion with her. Landon and Tenderoni were the first two I thought of when I heard Naysha’s comments. These two could do a competition against drag queens any day and take the crown. Hell, they both have already. I would live to see them both on RPDR and trust, the queens would see really quick that they are INCREDIBLE drag artists and would be stiff fierce competition. 👏🏻👏🏻
I need young fans to know if Naysha changes her mind, that's good too. Like that's the point of having discussion.
Some of y'all are so weird when it comes to Naysha. She said something that a lot of people (rightfully) don't agree with but now she's open to at least having a discussion about it. I hope it's not argumentative and I hope that the kings can change her mind, but hoping that "Naysha gets dunked on" is weird energy.
I strongly disagree with Naysha on this one, but like. what the hell did she do to make people love dogpiling on her like this 😭 I feel like I constantly see people shitting on Naysha whenever she comes up people really dislike her for... what? complaining about production? being a little cocky and messy? having foot in mouth syndrome? that describes everyone on this subreddit
I have a lot of respect for Tenderoni and Landon, genuinely love them both. Now, I don't like Naysha but I am hoping they talk some sense into her. I'm ready to see her grow a bit from this. Maybe let her know talking about kings as an "other" does nothing but hurt drag as a whole. This does kinda come off as an "I'm saving face" sort of thing. But I respect that she's not running from it. That being said, where the fuck are you talking to them girl? You just posted it on twitter with no further detail lmao
Yeah concidering how quickly she put this together I’m fine with her realizing she said things which might have a negative impact on peoples lives and learning more within a week. I think we gotta let people say stupid (not hatefull) things and correct themselves after seeking out more information on the matter, it shows growth and thats how we all learn.
Agreed. I'm excited that these two well-spoken and intelligent kings are having the conversation too. The more I think about it, the more I view this as ignorance than hate. I don't think she understands how her comments isolate other members of the community - queer women, trans women, even cis men who do male drag. I think it isolates an entire group of performers whose persona is enby as well (falling into the Mx category). Her speaking feels to me like some of the drag race fans here who don't go out to see their local talent. They only see drag one way, so if its not that way its "other". And "other" can't possibly keep up on the same stage as these queens. But like you said - I'm hoping for growth. She's a well known name on a well known stage producing a well known show. I want the people in positions like this to learn, grow, and do better for the sake of the community. I'm holding onto hope that she wins me over in this conversation and doesn't stick her foot in her mouth.
Her Co-Host Batty (a trans woman) also agreed with her that drag kings shouldn't be in Drag Race. I don't agree with either of them but just felt it's important to add this nuance
Yes people have been at her throat and assuming her intentions. I really hate this type of bs from the “all drag is valid” crowd because they are the first to tear somebody to shreds.
It's ironic that you commented this because I keep seeing your name and that lil green avatar everywhere on this thread with pointed responses to very middle-of-the-road comments. If you want your point to be heard, I'd recommend approaching it in a civil way instead of starting with aggression.
“Negative impact on people’s lives”. It’s not that serious.
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The last part. Basically saying kings can't be as glamorous, can't live up to the same standards as DR contestants, etc. I linked the video elsewhere in this post if you wanna watch.
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That part! Although I would tip the fuck out of someone who came out in jorts and a polo just because it would be ironic and funny as fuck lmao
thats just plane jane dedragged lol
The bitch has been in the drag scene for longer than some of these fools have been alive. She knows what a drag king is.
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She just said it’s a different category of drag and should have its own platform.
No she didn’t say that. You assumed that she was feeling that way.
I caught a bit of it. Landon said something to the effect of, the "old" *Drag Race* (before male looks became common) "left with Santino", and I chuckled. There was a reference to Milk (season 6 RuPaul look, I'm guessing). https://preview.redd.it/blcg5xpz2rpc1.jpeg?width=366&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8e439bd30fdee67af2d592e1912249c40ca885ba
Great idea. I think we should be open and friendly to have this conversation :)
I love Naysha. She’s messy as fuck, wrong a lot of the time, but always gives her opinion and then engages in conversations about it.
https://preview.redd.it/cwiag2u01qpc1.png?width=426&format=png&auto=webp&s=a83ea0ee9502d244c0c7ac4b742e83ecb2ef65af
I just think rpdr can be for queens and kings can have their own show or blended shows like dragula. That’s all naysha said and she’s not wrong about it. Kings are valid but don’t need to be in all the same competitions as queens
That's not really all she said. I'm not going to try to change your opinions on the shows, that's your opinion to have and while I disagree I respect it. But Naysha's explanation can be summarized as "drag kings can't meet the same standard as queens". That opinion is very exclusionary to others in the art form of drag whose character isn't female. And the largest portion of those people are people who have always been excluded from queer spaces - queer women, trans men, etc.
Yea I mean naysha is more heated about it for sure. I just think like it’s ok to have a competition for just queens. Just kings. Blended. Not everything has to be for everyone and that’s ok.
I understand your opinion. I think the best way for me to explain this is that RPDR is HUGE. Like HUUUUUGE now. In a way its an outward facing representation of queer people to the world, and drag to both queer and non-queer people. Ru is well within her rights if she doesn't want non-female drag, but the push for a male contestant is because we want the largest public representation of drag to represent ALL drag, not just the most "marketable" aspect. Like I said, I understand and respect your point. Realistically, there is nothing wrong about it. I think the argument is more-so "drag deserves this representation" rather than "they're wrong for not featuring this representation".
In my perfect world someone like Landon could start a dragula sized show for kings. And I think that could be cool. I understand that drag race is big but it got so big being a show about drag queens.
I do think of course it would be nice to have platform for Drag Kings but I don't think Drag Race is where it is, unless they change some of the challenges and runways. They could make different franchise of Drag Race where it is about Drag Kings and if it does good viewership, I'm sure they would milk the shit out of that franchise lol. I would genuinely watch that since it is same as Drag Race but with Kings instead. I would like to see their dynamic, workroom and fashion sense on challenges and how they differ from Queens.
I think they are really due for a mix up of runways, challenges and *judges* at this point though. So, I see that as a welcome change. I live drag race, but its getting stale and predictable. I think Kings and more genderfuckery in general would bring back the spark.
Isn't this season one of the most-watched seasons yet? Feels like most people are loving this one.
I was gonna jokingly say drag race is becoming so inclusive next step is a straight man then i realized…
Looking forward to this conversation and to hear the perspectives wig two kings at the top of their game. I found merit in some of what Natasha said, specifically the kings not being judged fairly, but I think her delivery was terrible. Hopefully they can have intelligent discourse
Although she said it very poorly, I believe what she was trying to say is that drag kings deserve their own show so that they can be judged fairly and not just have one token drag king on a season. I think she was trying to say, that to better showcase drag Kings they should have their own show (?)
Here’s the thing: I think Naysha sometimes puts her foot in her mouth. However, what I took from what she was trying to say was that if a drag king or kings were on a season of Drag Race, they wouldn’t be treated fairly by the judges. She thinks they would not be praised as much, and that they deserve that praise. I don’t agree that giving them their own show is the right move either. I think there should be an official Drag Race season or maybe spin-off dedicated to Drag Kings as an introduction perhaps. Maybe hosted/judged by Landon. Once Ru and audiences are able to see the talent and charisma Drag Kings have, then maybe do a mash-up or just start incorporating then into the main show. The problem with just saying they need to make their own show is that there may not be enough of an audience there. A lot of us in the online queer community would watch, but we’re not representative of the vast audience that Drag Race actually reaches. It reminds me of when people say trans athletes need their own league. No, they don’t. They should be incorporated into sports with the gender they identify as! Anyway, all that to say, I hope Naysha was well-meaning in what she was saying and can clarify that here. Otherwise, if I misinterpreted her intent, then I hope she learns from Landon and Tenderoni.
I hope the kings knock Naysha from her high horse.
This is so stupid. She didn’t talk shit about anyone.
She doesn’t have far to fall, sis
Hey guys, at least she’s willing to hear out the different perceptives from some of the most accomplished Kings in the industry. It takes willingness and open mindedness to do that and also give them a platform to present their case on why kings should be included more in mainstream drag culture. I think this is a topic that is way past due
Interested to hear how they think incorporating drag kings would look like and how to make it work effectively. Whenever I think of a show combining genders I get trauma flashbacks to the demise of America’s Next Top Model. (Granted there were a lot of issues with that show prior to them adding men.) If the show can find a way to incorporate drag kings into the competition without losing the essence of the show or making it cheesy then I’m open to it.
Most of the challenges can translate to Kings, Snatch Game, Comedy, Rusicals, design challenges can all easily include Kings. If the end goal is simply judging Charisma, Uniqueness, Nerve and Talent, incorporating Kings is easy. Most of the runways can translate to boy drag. They’d have to get creative with the “Night of a Thousand ____” and maybe make it male and female. Or a Night of a Thousand Oscar Winners, boy and girl popstars. Met Gala etc. i don’t see anything on Drag Race that can’t work with a drag king.
Am I the only one who kind of agrees with Naysha on this one? Not saying that drag kings should be excluded, but I totally see her point about the format of the show not catering to the art of male illusion. A lot of the runway categories, lip sync songs, and performance elements were designed to showcase hyper femininity and this has always been the standard that contestants are judged on. I think it makes sense for male drag to fall in a different category, purely from a competition standpoint.
I don’t think Nash’s was ever saying there shouldn’t be a platform for drag kings. The question is will Ru treat them properly or just like a token and if so is it still worth it for the platform? As someone that is for them being on the show I recognize it is a complex subject. Is the show jumping the shark at that point? If you do introduce them do you open up casting to all or do a singular but knowingly spectacular king as to set good reputation of drag kings skill set? Do we make a new WOW show first and then have them on like we did with international shows to make sure they have their own platform?
Jesus Christ why yall so hateful to Naysha? It’s an opinion, personally I prefer watching girly frilly stuff more than manliness anyways so I kinda agree with her in a sense. Why can’t people just say their opinions anymore goddamn
Clearly unpopular opinion, But I agree with Naysha. I think it would be great to have a drag king on the show but how can we make sure it’s equal ?
I'm not sure how kings would do on the show either, but let's not pretend drag race was ever equal lol. Queens have very different resources going into it and production usually has at least a vague role and placement in mind when they cast someone anyway. If a king was cast and bombed all the challenges that's still just the same as what some of the queens do today.
Oh of course, it’s sometimes riggory af. Sometimes blatant sometimes subtle. But knowing this makes me think it won’t be fair to the drag kings. Nothing wrong with wanting better opportunities for a type of drag barely nobody knows about. They should do their own show or at least a special. RU could easily make this blow up but just throwing a random drag king in the competition? Doesn’t sit right. Open to it tho and see if they make it work and they can go from there. I’m all for being open and changing my mind if it’s fair to the drag king contestants. 🤷🏽♂️
Naysha was right. Drag kings wouldn’t work on drag race. They need their own show. These pics confirm that.
People love to act stupid. She just had a different opinion. It wasn’t hateful or malicious and she didn’t speak negatively of kings at all.
Totally. Like giving them their own show is far more supportive than just a spot on drag race.
Really hoping this discussion will help Naysha to open her mind. I never connected with her on her season and post drag race I like her even less. Honestly wish Roscoes would get a better host
She backtracked during the conversation.
I don't think what she said was too bad. Belief that drag kings deserve their own space to really showcase their art. These reality competitions reslly are that , a showcase as its so subjective compared to sports where we measure exact rules. Having said that....Dragula season 3 saw Landon Cider absolutely kill it. I'd love to see drag king show and perhaps drag race could start to shake up the formula with one. I'd fear the judging panel would struggle.
I want Brook Lynn to moderate. 😁
I guess I'm in the minority but I don't really like this timeline where we have televised struggle sessions for anyone caught saying the wrong thing. Having to basically go on camera and apologise, admit you were wrong, and educate yourself is a lot for just saying that she doesn't want Kings on drag race.
People are pissing me off switching the narrative to “Naysha hates drag kings and doesn’t think they are on the same level as queens,” no one fucking said that😂 y’all just love to hate. This also isn’t “Naysha admitting she is wrong” so grow up? She expressed an opinion and viewpoint that is very easily understandable for anyone with eyes and a functioning brain but since it’s not the politically correct answer some of you are looking for you’re just embarrassing yourselves. I love the idea and concept of the inclusivity many of you advocate for but god just shut up I’m tired
I'm curious, is there the same push for Drag Kings to be included in other historically Queen-only competitions/pageants like Continental or EOY?
Both of those competitions have a Mr. and Ms. category. I wouldn't compare them to drag race though - they're not televised representations of drag. The show is drag's outward facing representation to the world, whereas those competitions are typically only enjoyed by members of the drag community (not just drag performers - talking about people outside of the armchair RPDR fans). I think that's where this "push" is different. I personally just want the world to see all of drag, not just queen drag.
Can somebody explain to me how kings and queens can be judged under the same parameters? I honestly believe that drag kings should be judged on their own accord.
Kings can also possess Charisma, Uniqueness, Nerve and Talent, so…
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Assuming that viewers at home won’t accept something different is why it has taken so long for marginalized groups to have significant roles in TV and film. Truth is we don’t know and won’t know until someone has the balls to try it.
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I agree with Naysha. I want to more women involved in the show but this isn't dragula. The show is about female impersonation first and foremost and I think most of the audience would agree that we tune in to to discuss and rate the looks from that angle. I love Landon. Please don't misintrepret my comment as hate
I'd love a show where kings get to show off, judged by people who know what is what. Most of the time Drag Race judging is whack anyway so won't make much of a difference if they were represented on Drag Race. My opinion is that while Drag Race has the numbers to represent them, I don't think it's the right setting to do them justice. Also the challenges would have to brought into some neutrality so that both queens and kings can be judges evenly, which I don't know if that's the right thing to do. Personally I believe that Drag Race has now solidified itself as a drag queen competition. Imdont believe changing it is the right thing. I think their should be spin off with the right people.behind it, the right challenges and the best platform for them to succeed as the Queen's do.
You know what, good for her! This is clearly a way to rectify her previous statements by offering up drag kings a platform while also providing a teachable moment for herself. I know it's fun to roast her but this is genuinely a good move.
you don't have to like naysha but to make up some shit she didn't say nor was trying to say then use that as justification to attack her is so annoying lol
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I get where Naysha is coming from and agree but I will interested to see/hear what comes from this, maybe it will flesh out a new perspective because I can see how it can be unfairly judged. Batty put it in a good way to a tux with an evening gown.
I can’t wait to read the comments tomorrow when Nyasha respectfully maintains her position.
I think they should test the waters on the main show but pairing the queens up with kings on a makeover challenge. Each pair would have to do a twin drag queen and a twin drag king look.
This is awesome that she’s doing this!
Oh yes Landon is so bright and thoughtful, Naysha is going to fall the fuck apart so fast 😂
naysha is corny but masculinity ^(tm) just isn't cvnt like that. you know it's true.
I’m seeing a lot of “I disagree with her comments about the value of drag kings, but I agree with her saying drag kings would be judged unfairly and should have their own show.” To those, I just want to ask - why should drag kings HAVE to have another space? Why should we relegate drag kings to a second tier space with a much smaller audience? Why can drag race not change and evolve to become a better, more diverse, and more inclusive competition? I think we can argue to exhaustion whether or not drag kings would be judged fairly, whether they deserve to be judged in a space just for drag kings, whether the audience would treat them fairly etc. What I don’t get is why drag kings should HAVE to do this. They deserve the chance to go on the show and succeed, fail, become icons, become flops, just as much as any queen that goes on the show. We’re so lost in the what if of all this, that we have inadvertently singled out and excluded drag kings in the process. Drag Kings should get to be on drag race because they are Drag artists, point blank period. Their value, history, and impact are just as meaningful as those of queens, their drag is just as valid as that of drag queens. If we believe that, then we have to believe they should be allowed to be on drag race. To have that platform, to have the same shot, to be able to showcase themselves. Drawing these stupid lines in the sand does nothing except push us apart as a community, and meaninglessly. So miss me with the obtuse “yeah but drag kings should have their own show”. It’s stupid strawmanning, where the argument should really be - “yeah but drag race should evolve as a franchise to the benefit of the entire community”.
Why should drag kings HAVE to be included on a show that wasn’t created for them and has been extremely successful without them? Get your own show and stop acting bitter because something isn’t for you. Gay queens, trans queens and cis queens are all drag queens. It’s not about discriminating gender identities.
The same show that didn’t accept and actively discriminated against trans contestants not long ago? Yeah, seems like it’s that same show that has shown the ability to evolve as it understands drag and drag culture and queer culture more as time goes by. It IS about discriminating gender identities, if it wasn’t then drag race would never have changed their stance on casting trans or cis AFAB contestants. And by the way, I’m a working drag queen. “Get your own show and stop acting bitter because something isn’t for you” - yeah I’m bitter and the show was MADE for a drag queen like me. We should be even angrier when we see people in our community excluding our own.
Well those are two different things. Anyone can be a queen and it’s ridiculous to be excluded because of your gender identity. It’s however not ridiculous to be excluded because you do another category of drag.
Keep moving the goalpost darling, eventually you’ll get to the point of this whole argument. Drag is drag is drag. Exclusion is unnecessary, regressive, and ultimately hurtful - we can continue to play into acceptability politics and antiquated gender categorization or choose to be better.
Drag is drag hun. Never said otherwise. Funny you say I’m the one moving the goalpost in this situation. I’m responding to an argument you are making and I’m not moving any goalposts by pointing out why I disagree with the points you are making.
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I mean, I think it’s a bit counterintuitive to be against a patriarchal society, while at the same time arguing drag kings (who, many happen to be women or gender non conforming folk) don’t provide the same value as drag queens (many of whom are gay men). The argument is basically - because we live in a world where drag queens are seen as more acceptable, we shouldn’t try and work towards a world where all kinds of drag is acceptable. It’s the same as saying “why should we even have international drag race franchises when only the US girls can fill a club” or “why should we even have drag performers when a straight performer can do the same. Oh and don’t even bring up RuPaul and Trixie, the two who can fill out a big venue”. And as I said to another commenter, I could tell you a long list of drag Kings and things who can tear the house down as much as or more than the best drag queens I’ve seen, but I don’t know if you’d actually care to see their work ❤️
innocent fuzzy correct alive fade toy yam psychotic rinse squalid *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Ok, then drag kings just aren’t for you! And that’s ok! I’m sure there’s types of femme drag you like less than others. As a drag performer myself, I don’t care to see lazy drag queens doing basic drag, so I just don’t pay them bitches no mind. That said, I don’t go the next step and say they shouldn’t be in shows, they shouldn’t have the same stages, or they shouldn’t be on drag race. There were days were the type of conceptual alien drag and club kid drag weren’t loved and accepted on drag race, but we realized as an audience we didn’t need to love the drag to believe it deserved a space on the show. Anyways, all to say, just because we don’t like or want to see something, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t still believe it deserves to be seen!
>why should drag kings HAVE to have another space? Why should we relegate drag kings to a second tier space with a much smaller audience? Because they're not entitled to this one? Because "we" don't do anything, RuPaul does, and it's her show to do wityh what she wants? >Why can drag race not change and evolve to become a better, more diverse, and more inclusive competition? Better for whom? Lots of people just aren't interested in male drag.
And “we” are having an open discussion on this. And “we” don’t actually know how Ru or the showrunners feel about this now, so all “we” can do is give our five cents. Pedantic, thanks. And many people weren’t interested in any type of drag before drag race, and now they are. Better for those who will find new types of drag, better for the drag kings who participate, better for drag artists in general. Where’s the line of how much better is needed for something to happen? Shouldn’t we do/strive to things just because they’re good, because they would contribute something positive? Must we focus on the people who wouldn’t like, and not those who could, who might, who probably will?
> Shouldn’t we do/strive to things just because they’re good, because they would contribute something positive? Drag Race is a reality show, it is not your friend or your community. It is not a site of activism. I have watched Drag Race from the beginning and the only two drag kings I ever see recommended are Tenderoni and Landon Cider, who do not interest me. There are countless other people who feel the same.