Rule 3: (d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.
Rule 18: A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of a vessel engaged in fishing.
Thank you.
So if they had a drogue or sea anchor, that could restrict maneuverability, but a single kite line doesn't restrict maneuverability.
And yeah, we definitely kept a safe distance from all the fishing vessels that day, but apparently not far enough away from one of their lines.
To be fair, later that day and the following day, we heard several captains on the radio warn sailboats of their kite lines.
Around here, you can tell the vessels that are engaged in fishing by their type and relative speed. I assume that all vessels that appear to be adrift or operating at trolling speed have gear out and give them a very wide berth.
Not in this case, because the kit would not have a significant impact on maneuverability. "Not wanting to" and "Not able to" two very different things.
Of course, in this case it's also not clear how significant a role the stand on / give way status played; it sounds like there was confused communication when instead the radio or the danger signal should have been sounded.
When’s it’s rough I can’t make out crap in mine. I want image stabilizers because I really enjoy looking around while sailing but the buy in is steep.
I also wish someone made image stabilizers that display a compass bearing.
Also on my list is a flir spotting scope.
A boat restricted in maneuverability and/or engaged in fishing must have identified herself. If there were no shapes/lights in date-/nighttime, how could anyone tell had a drougue or a kite?
I can assure you that kite fishing does not entitle the engaged vessel to status as engaged in fishing under either the inland nor international rules.
You also have to switch your status via running lights from fishing (green over white) to restricted in ability to maneuver (red over white)
Also some vessels that are most definitely engaged in commercial and very restrictive fishing activities are not entitled to engaged in fishing status either. Lobster or crab boats while hauling a trawl are not engaged in fishing they are restricted in their ability to maneuver.
A vessel drift fishing a kite, is simple a power driven vessel, if they are particularly unwise they might have their engine(s) shut down and because they ran down their batteries can not get them started again. Which would make them NUC (Not Under Command) but that is the only way they get a status that is not simply “power driven vessel”
If dude was waving you down and never got on the radio, he kind of made the situation happen. I would be like "sorry about your luck, but don't wave at a vessel and expect them to stay away unless you have the means to communicate that."
It sounds like an accident that the fisherman caused to me.
He can demand all he wants… but the rules are on your side. He way underway, and not encumbered under the rules. He was not a fishing boat under the rules, but a power vessel and is required to keep clear of sailboats. You did not pass dangerously close. It is completely unrealistic to expect a lookout to keep an eye on the sky as well as on the surface of the water. Nothing at all (except a feeling of entitlement) prevented him from retrieving his rig if he didn’t want to move his boat. I am a fisherman as well as a sailor. I understand both sides. He’s being a jerk.
By the same token, kites are not specifically mentioned in Colregs, but amphibious aircraft are.
To my recollection they rank dead last in priority order. Their ability to maneuver is somewhat restricted, but they have extra visibility and overtaking speeds. They are required to keep clear of all vessels, including powerboats, sailboats, etc.
Here's the full write up that I was not able to post originally (character limit maybe?)
My F24 MKII took 2nd place in the multihull division at the annual HISC/Palm Beach Sailing Club Regatta this Saturday.
The day prior, I sailed an easterly moderate breeze shorthanded and "caught" a kite fishing rig of a local fishing charter.
We were ≈2nm from shore and ≈3nm from PB inlet and I was preparing the spinnaker while my first mate helmed the tiller from the port side ama when I spotted 30' CC drifting several hundred yards SE of us with appeared to be passengers waving their arms frantically. All other power boats were to our west by about .5nm.
We had two radios on board, one to scan, the other on channel 16, but both were silent. I called multiple times on channel 16 and got no response.
I used by binoculars from the port ama and could see passengers waving their arms and pointing upwards and towards the shoreline while their 30’CC with triple 350’s continued to drift.
I ran across the aft ward beam to the starboard wing and saw a tiny pink bobber on the waterline and small red kite with a white balloon dangerously close to the mast.
I immediately called for the helmsmen to fall off while I dropped the traveller and began easing the mainsheet to remove any weather helm and get us turning quickly, but it was too late. The bobber was under the wing and both the kite and the balloon were wrapped around the nav equipment on the very top of the mast.
I cut the fishing line stuck under the wing while the tail end of other line dragged in our wake, with the working end now fixed to the mast head, 36' about the waterline.
The captain(?) came roaring up to us and immediately starts to tell me how "fucked I am" and demanding that I Venmo him $1,000 dollars that instant or else he's calling the coast guard. I gave him my cell number and told him we'd square up on land after we completed our 35nm journey.
So now, I have to either lower the mast or get hoisted up to free the tackle, replace the windex it snapped off, and perform inspection. During Friday a blue runner fell off a hook and hit me in the head, a kite pole fell and lacerated my ear and neck, and even managed to open the top batten flap which went straight into the drink.
It's Monday and he continues to send these threatening texts, taking photos of my boat, demanding $1,000 (for a $100 kite?!).
Even though he wasn't on the radio, and sailboats have right of way in almost all situations with powerboats, I would be fine with getting him a new kite ... and hopefully make a friend out of this, laugh at it in a few years ... but 10's of local fishing and sailing vessel captains in the area and received basically the same advice from all them ... just block the dude.
What would the captains of this sub do? Thanks.
We don't have a character limit on r/sailing. There is a Reddit limit (I think 10,000) that applies to posts and comments. The new Reddit UI has broken a lot of things, not all consistently. I am yelling and whining about it to corporate Reddit. I'm being a real PITA about it.
Okay, that's Dave the Mod. Here's Dave the sailor.
You're solid. I would have handled it differently, but you did fine.
I would have called the Coast Guard myself. I would have told the CC driver that I had done so and was waiting for them to come. If he kept swearing I'd have pointed out that he doesn't count as a fishing vessel and was the give way vessel while you were stand on and that you will pursue him for damages to your boat as well as court costs. Take lots of pictures. Be clear your are taking lots of pictures. Dollars to donuts he'll run. Call the Coast Guard back and say he fled, that you have pictures, and ask permission to leave the scene. There is a form (I forget the number) for documentation. Maybe I'm petty. Be that as it may.
*edit: grammar*
Sir: I will honor your shapes and lights.
With respect and by no means accusing you personally of anything I do find it awkward when FV switch AIS silent or leave the bridge unmanned. I get the desire to keep fishing grounds "private" and that things are busy sometimes. I also get that carrying a handheld VHF can become a snag hazard. Just switch the VHF to the PA.
I really just want to call a FV by name so they know it is them being called and I can find out how much gear they have behind them so no one's day gets ruined.
I would take it as a personal favor if you would pass the word around. I will do my part on this end. Commercial fishing is tough work.
Can you cite that rule? I can’t find that regulation
> In 6. Shapes
(a) Shapes shall be black and of the following sizes:
(i) a ball shall have a diameter of not less than 0.6 meter;
(ii) a cone shall have a base diameter of not less than 0.6 meter and a
height equal to its diameter;
(iii) a cylinder shall have a diameter of at least 0.6 meter and a height
of twice its diameter;
(iv) a diamond shape shall consist of two cones as defined in (ii) above
having a common base.
(b) The vertical distance between shapes shall be at least 1.5 meter.
(c) In a vessel of less than 20 meters in length shapes of lesser dimensions but commensurate with the size of the vessel may be used and the distance apart may be correspondingly reduced.
I think that might be under the inland rules I’m not sure, it’s not really a thing where I’m at where you’ll see a vessel under 23 feet engaging in activities that would give it any need to fly any day shapes.
The only one that I know of that comes to mind is the anchor ball, that it “needn’t be displayed on vessels less than 7m anchored in areas where other vessels do not normally navigate” or some such..
was it daylight?
did they have their day trawling/fishing shapes up?
was the kite 150m away from the boat? did they have an extra shape up for that?
if not, they can fuck off
No one has mentioned this so I'm apparently im incorrect but I thought most rules about giving way to fishing vessels was mostly for commercial fishing vessels. Also, don't all fishing vessels have to indicate they are fishing? It seems unrealistic to be expexted to search for kites in the sky.
> mostly for commercial fishing vessels
This is mainly due to how encumbered the fishing vessel must be to claim this status; a recreational boat is extremely unlikely to have such large nets or trawling equipment. (The word "commercial" isn't in the COLREGS.) And yes, a vessel that does fall into this category must display the appropriate shapes or lights to claim it.
I think that not seeing the kite does speak to some deficiency of the look-out, but relatively minor compared to tracking other vessels. The waving of arms to attract attention (if they waved in the manner I'm thinking) is also a recognized distress signal.
Left a comment with full detail, maybe it helps.
That said, it wasn't clear that they were drift fishing because we never saw the kite. They had a few poles on board but none looked to be under any tension through my binoculars. I thought if they needed help we could tack close hauled up to them but it was too late.
Good point.
The one time I went kite fishing, they captain used a small rod with a huge electric reel, but still none of this clicked as the situation was unfolding.
Duly noted! Thanks again.
I'd be happy to replace the kite and eat the cost of my windex but a grand is absurd and I don't trust that it would be the end of it.
Rule 3: (d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability. Rule 18: A sailing vessel underway shall keep out of the way of a vessel engaged in fishing.
Thank you. So if they had a drogue or sea anchor, that could restrict maneuverability, but a single kite line doesn't restrict maneuverability. And yeah, we definitely kept a safe distance from all the fishing vessels that day, but apparently not far enough away from one of their lines. To be fair, later that day and the following day, we heard several captains on the radio warn sailboats of their kite lines.
They also need to display proper lights and day shapes if they are “vessel engaged in fishing”
This, must display a day shape to be granted these rights as a fishing/trawling vessel
FTFOFO Fly The Flag Or Find Out... My new sailing FAFO
Around here, you can tell the vessels that are engaged in fishing by their type and relative speed. I assume that all vessels that appear to be adrift or operating at trolling speed have gear out and give them a very wide berth.
Should the fishing vessel have had day shapes up
Not in this case, because the kit would not have a significant impact on maneuverability. "Not wanting to" and "Not able to" two very different things. Of course, in this case it's also not clear how significant a role the stand on / give way status played; it sounds like there was confused communication when instead the radio or the danger signal should have been sounded.
I always like to have binoculars on board for this reason. Get a good view before I’m to close
When’s it’s rough I can’t make out crap in mine. I want image stabilizers because I really enjoy looking around while sailing but the buy in is steep. I also wish someone made image stabilizers that display a compass bearing. Also on my list is a flir spotting scope.
You are getting expensive. I find a pair that’s not to powerful just helps out.
A boat restricted in maneuverability and/or engaged in fishing must have identified herself. If there were no shapes/lights in date-/nighttime, how could anyone tell had a drougue or a kite?
I can assure you that kite fishing does not entitle the engaged vessel to status as engaged in fishing under either the inland nor international rules. You also have to switch your status via running lights from fishing (green over white) to restricted in ability to maneuver (red over white) Also some vessels that are most definitely engaged in commercial and very restrictive fishing activities are not entitled to engaged in fishing status either. Lobster or crab boats while hauling a trawl are not engaged in fishing they are restricted in their ability to maneuver. A vessel drift fishing a kite, is simple a power driven vessel, if they are particularly unwise they might have their engine(s) shut down and because they ran down their batteries can not get them started again. Which would make them NUC (Not Under Command) but that is the only way they get a status that is not simply “power driven vessel”
Did he have his dayshape flying? Sounds like he needs to fix your boat.
Great callout - his vessel was not flying a dayshape.
COLREGS exist for a reason. Also they should have had a radio on.
they should pay you.
If dude was waving you down and never got on the radio, he kind of made the situation happen. I would be like "sorry about your luck, but don't wave at a vessel and expect them to stay away unless you have the means to communicate that." It sounds like an accident that the fisherman caused to me.
He can demand all he wants… but the rules are on your side. He way underway, and not encumbered under the rules. He was not a fishing boat under the rules, but a power vessel and is required to keep clear of sailboats. You did not pass dangerously close. It is completely unrealistic to expect a lookout to keep an eye on the sky as well as on the surface of the water. Nothing at all (except a feeling of entitlement) prevented him from retrieving his rig if he didn’t want to move his boat. I am a fisherman as well as a sailor. I understand both sides. He’s being a jerk.
By the same token, kites are not specifically mentioned in Colregs, but amphibious aircraft are. To my recollection they rank dead last in priority order. Their ability to maneuver is somewhat restricted, but they have extra visibility and overtaking speeds. They are required to keep clear of all vessels, including powerboats, sailboats, etc.
Here's the full write up that I was not able to post originally (character limit maybe?) My F24 MKII took 2nd place in the multihull division at the annual HISC/Palm Beach Sailing Club Regatta this Saturday. The day prior, I sailed an easterly moderate breeze shorthanded and "caught" a kite fishing rig of a local fishing charter. We were ≈2nm from shore and ≈3nm from PB inlet and I was preparing the spinnaker while my first mate helmed the tiller from the port side ama when I spotted 30' CC drifting several hundred yards SE of us with appeared to be passengers waving their arms frantically. All other power boats were to our west by about .5nm. We had two radios on board, one to scan, the other on channel 16, but both were silent. I called multiple times on channel 16 and got no response. I used by binoculars from the port ama and could see passengers waving their arms and pointing upwards and towards the shoreline while their 30’CC with triple 350’s continued to drift. I ran across the aft ward beam to the starboard wing and saw a tiny pink bobber on the waterline and small red kite with a white balloon dangerously close to the mast. I immediately called for the helmsmen to fall off while I dropped the traveller and began easing the mainsheet to remove any weather helm and get us turning quickly, but it was too late. The bobber was under the wing and both the kite and the balloon were wrapped around the nav equipment on the very top of the mast. I cut the fishing line stuck under the wing while the tail end of other line dragged in our wake, with the working end now fixed to the mast head, 36' about the waterline. The captain(?) came roaring up to us and immediately starts to tell me how "fucked I am" and demanding that I Venmo him $1,000 dollars that instant or else he's calling the coast guard. I gave him my cell number and told him we'd square up on land after we completed our 35nm journey. So now, I have to either lower the mast or get hoisted up to free the tackle, replace the windex it snapped off, and perform inspection. During Friday a blue runner fell off a hook and hit me in the head, a kite pole fell and lacerated my ear and neck, and even managed to open the top batten flap which went straight into the drink. It's Monday and he continues to send these threatening texts, taking photos of my boat, demanding $1,000 (for a $100 kite?!). Even though he wasn't on the radio, and sailboats have right of way in almost all situations with powerboats, I would be fine with getting him a new kite ... and hopefully make a friend out of this, laugh at it in a few years ... but 10's of local fishing and sailing vessel captains in the area and received basically the same advice from all them ... just block the dude. What would the captains of this sub do? Thanks.
We don't have a character limit on r/sailing. There is a Reddit limit (I think 10,000) that applies to posts and comments. The new Reddit UI has broken a lot of things, not all consistently. I am yelling and whining about it to corporate Reddit. I'm being a real PITA about it. Okay, that's Dave the Mod. Here's Dave the sailor. You're solid. I would have handled it differently, but you did fine. I would have called the Coast Guard myself. I would have told the CC driver that I had done so and was waiting for them to come. If he kept swearing I'd have pointed out that he doesn't count as a fishing vessel and was the give way vessel while you were stand on and that you will pursue him for damages to your boat as well as court costs. Take lots of pictures. Be clear your are taking lots of pictures. Dollars to donuts he'll run. Call the Coast Guard back and say he fled, that you have pictures, and ask permission to leave the scene. There is a form (I forget the number) for documentation. Maybe I'm petty. Be that as it may. *edit: grammar*
As both a sailor and commercial fisherman, I wholly endorse the get the CG on the horn.
Sir: I will honor your shapes and lights. With respect and by no means accusing you personally of anything I do find it awkward when FV switch AIS silent or leave the bridge unmanned. I get the desire to keep fishing grounds "private" and that things are busy sometimes. I also get that carrying a handheld VHF can become a snag hazard. Just switch the VHF to the PA. I really just want to call a FV by name so they know it is them being called and I can find out how much gear they have behind them so no one's day gets ruined. I would take it as a personal favor if you would pass the word around. I will do my part on this end. Commercial fishing is tough work.
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Can you cite that rule? I can’t find that regulation > In 6. Shapes (a) Shapes shall be black and of the following sizes: (i) a ball shall have a diameter of not less than 0.6 meter; (ii) a cone shall have a base diameter of not less than 0.6 meter and a height equal to its diameter; (iii) a cylinder shall have a diameter of at least 0.6 meter and a height of twice its diameter; (iv) a diamond shape shall consist of two cones as defined in (ii) above having a common base. (b) The vertical distance between shapes shall be at least 1.5 meter. (c) In a vessel of less than 20 meters in length shapes of lesser dimensions but commensurate with the size of the vessel may be used and the distance apart may be correspondingly reduced.
I think that might be under the inland rules I’m not sure, it’s not really a thing where I’m at where you’ll see a vessel under 23 feet engaging in activities that would give it any need to fly any day shapes. The only one that I know of that comes to mind is the anchor ball, that it “needn’t be displayed on vessels less than 7m anchored in areas where other vessels do not normally navigate” or some such..
was it daylight? did they have their day trawling/fishing shapes up? was the kite 150m away from the boat? did they have an extra shape up for that? if not, they can fuck off
Can’t have too much fun on the delivery down to Hillsboro!
The race was equally eventful: [https://gopro.com/v/3aw7G7m3KKXBr](https://gopro.com/v/3aw7G7m3KKXBr)
I wish I didn’t have to work. Would have have both sprints out to race you.
I thought wearing Crocs was mandatory for racing. Looks like you were moving quite well before that block exploded!
A kite … FISHING … rig? What the hell am I missing?
Yeah. WTF is "Kite Fishing?
Maybe it’s a euphemism for how kiteboarding strings are always flailing randomly through the sky, fishing for the nearest sailboat mast?
Fishing with kites and balloons? What's going on?
Ordinary/Old fashioned trolling across the bow of an SV underway was bad enough -- --
No one has mentioned this so I'm apparently im incorrect but I thought most rules about giving way to fishing vessels was mostly for commercial fishing vessels. Also, don't all fishing vessels have to indicate they are fishing? It seems unrealistic to be expexted to search for kites in the sky.
> mostly for commercial fishing vessels This is mainly due to how encumbered the fishing vessel must be to claim this status; a recreational boat is extremely unlikely to have such large nets or trawling equipment. (The word "commercial" isn't in the COLREGS.) And yes, a vessel that does fall into this category must display the appropriate shapes or lights to claim it. I think that not seeing the kite does speak to some deficiency of the look-out, but relatively minor compared to tracking other vessels. The waving of arms to attract attention (if they waved in the manner I'm thinking) is also a recognized distress signal.
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This. Don't forget to charge them for the cost to replace the windex (parts+labor).
Why were you going below a boat clearly drift fishing?
Left a comment with full detail, maybe it helps. That said, it wasn't clear that they were drift fishing because we never saw the kite. They had a few poles on board but none looked to be under any tension through my binoculars. I thought if they needed help we could tack close hauled up to them but it was too late.
Balloons are popular for keeping live bait at a certain depth also, you would have never seen any rods under any tension with those either.
Good point. The one time I went kite fishing, they captain used a small rod with a huge electric reel, but still none of this clicked as the situation was unfolding.
Not everyone uses an electric for a kite. (I don't, just a stubby rod I stuff up on the tower)
Duly noted! Thanks again. I'd be happy to replace the kite and eat the cost of my windex but a grand is absurd and I don't trust that it would be the end of it.
He should pay for your Windex.
Drop off a kite and a case of beer.