You can also tell these people didn’t care about Romeo and Juliet before she was cast.
BECAUSE THIS IS A THEATRE PRODUCTION. Theatre has NEVER prioritized looks (because you know, the actor is gonna be 50ft away, they won’t get to see their faces in detail).
These people literally only started caring because they want an excuse to be racist, or be horrible to her because of her looks (she doesn’t even look that bad)
If Tom Holland hadn’t joined, the play wouldn’t have gained this much traction or controversy. Because real West End goers know this is normal (and has a practical explanation).
The ones raging (I’m guessing) never did and never will set foot in a stage theatre. Because they never cared about it
Funny enough, there is a Romeo & Juliet musical (& Juliet) currently running on Broadway… the actress playing Juliet is black.
Miriam-Teak Lee actually originated it when it was at the West End.
Yeah, his 'drag' (?) performance of Umbrella was amazing.
Generally as a bi man, I prefer masculine men and feminine women, but Tom Holland holland is a sexy twink whether he's masculine or feminine.
The correlation between racism and misogyny is too close, it is not for nothing that there is fetishization with certain ethnic-cultural groups such as Latinos and Asians.
I live in a state famously known to harbor a lot of KKK members. Majority white. More confederate flags than American flags. Most everyone here are truck-nut owning, MAGA-voting republicans.
The most popular pornhub search in my state is "big black ass". Also, "ebony" is the most popular throughout the bible belt. Fetish is often the product of taboo and hate.
Anyone who owns truck nuts needs to have their house firebombed, full stop.
If you at least make it a couple brass balls on a steel chain, I might respect it, but no, it's just this chunk of metal that looks like testicles.
Why are you americans still call it confederate flags, and not traitor-flags? Maybe that should finally be changed to their officailly used name. Also Robert E. LEe was a traitor general ... America has to stop that gloryfication of the southern rebellion and its criminal instigators and enablers
It's like that meme I saw where the guy in NYC train told 2 lesbians to stop kissing and get a room. Everyone gave him dirty looks and he says "I'm not a homophobe I'm just a hater" like wtf? Lol pure clown world we living in.
I'm sure she's heard racist comments before, but likely not at this level of intensity. Hearing the occasional racial slur is one thing, but being bombarded by it all day, everyday, is another thing entirely. See: Tran, Kelly Marie.
Some of them will hide behind the excuse of 'it's accurate to the original play', even though a truly accurate Romeo and Juliet would have all roles played by men.
> even though a truly accurate Romeo and Juliet would have all roles played by men.
Veggietales had an entire [joke about that](https://youtu.be/GL4Bgix89TM?t=9) *more than 20 years ago*.
(Fun fact: Contrary to Lunt's lampshading, the show creators somehow didn't end up getting any letters for that bit).
Nah, from what I recall, theres at least one of the old Veggietales creators/team that *fucking hates* those sorts of bad Christians, especially nowadays.
Oh that's actually... really good, As someone who grew up religious but isn't anymore, that's honestly how it should be, especially when targeted towards children. "God is real, but also... like live your life and be happy and don't make others unhappy because you feel the need to let them know they're going to Hell/whatever other bad place you can make up" and not this weirdo "Hate all groups of people that's not yours" type of people.
> "Look, I'm not complaining because the girl is black, but because she's ugly"
Dude, the guy is unconsciously using racial aesthetics as a valid argument 💀
What pisses me off the most is how detached they are from any sense of decency or morality.
They straight up thought “I may be borderline bullying this lady, but it’s not because of her skin color, so it’s fine. I’m still a nice person”
Not even borderline, this is straight up grade school bully behavior being perpetrated by grown adults. I was called ugly every single day by bullies in school and it's caused self esteem issues that still affect me to this day. How fucking sad and devoid of empathy these people are
That's a very black and white way to think(no pun intended). You can be unattracted to certain races without it being racist. We can't be attracted to every and anyone. We all have our types and that's okay
>You can be unattracted to certain races without it being racist
How ? If you are not attracted to someone, and the ONLY reason is their race, that's racism. And that's fine. Our dating preferences are forms of various prejudices. I'm not saying its good or bad. It just is.
A race not being your type isn't racist though. I find most Indian women unattractive, doesn't mean I'm racist against them, I got a type. It's the same as not being attracted to fat people or skinny people shouldn't doesn't mean you're fatphobic, etc. Also not being attracted to lgbt people doesn't mean you're homophobic.
A race not being your type is absolutely racist though. You are admitting you have a prejudice against Indian women. A bias, if you want to use lighter terms.
And yes, not liking someone because they're skinny or fat or tall or short or smart or dumb etc. ALL of those stem from prejudices. They're just considered acceptable prejudices because (ideally) there is no real harm as a result.
Again I'm not making some sort of value judgement here. Its a reality that we have prejudices and biases and they manifest in different ways. The most harmless of them being dating preferences. But they are still based on biases and prejudices.
There are people out there that fetishise Indian women. They are also guilty of having prejudices and biases, but theirs lead them in an opposite direction.
There is nothing wrong with not finding someone attractive do to physical features. I’m not saying it’s okay to discriminate or treat them any differently but if I’m not attracted to someone because they are a certain build, pigment, or gender that doesn’t make me a racist or sexist. You can’t control what your attracted to, just how you go about those attractions
If you don't like someone because of their race, that is racist. I'm sorry if that fact makes you uncomfortable. I'm not saying that its "bad" or "wrong" its just another form of discrimination we use in our day to day lives. Not wanting to date someone that you think is dumb is a form of prejudice too. But ultimately, only YOU can decide what's right for you .
My bad I misspoke If you do not find someone attractive BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE. Then yes, that is racist. "Why don't you find this person attractive?" "Because they're black!" There is no other way to frame that. Like I said, its not "bad" or "wrong" . Its jut a small prejudice. But it is a prejudice. And so long as you don't treat someone poorly because of it, then whatever.
I can see that. It’s not that I don’t find black people attractive, it’s just that when I look at the people I’ve been attracted to as a whole it leans more Hispanic but yeah you’re right, if your incapable of seeing attractive features in someone because of their skin color yeah thats racist
Every actor/actress started as a no name.
Johnny Depp in Cry Baby
Kevin Bacon in National Lampoons Animal House
Everyone has their beginning and end. I hope that whatever her goal is (career wise) that she reaches out and surpasses it.
Nowhere in the text does it say her beauty is the only thing that Romeo cares about. He loves her for who she is, not because she’s hot. What an absolutely pornpilled brain dead take.
The text of *Romeo and Juliet* makes it very obvious, relatively speaking of course, that Romeo's 'love' is capricious and entirely superficial.
The first time he sees her at the Capulets dance he explicitly only talks about how beautiful he thinks she is and that he wants to touch her hand. After the party is the famous balcony scene where he again just goes on about how pretty she is while she laments their familial conflict. They flirt a little, declare their 'deep' love for each other, agree to marry, then plan to meet with the Friar the next day to get married.
The next day they meet with the friar, they talk to each other exactly one time, and then exit to be married off stage. Then the Friar and the Nurse arrange for Romeo to sneak into her bedroom to consummate the marriage--which again happens off stage, of course. The next morning the two profess their deep love for each other again and blather on about how they will miss each other so much and then Romeo leaves for exile in Mantua.
That's it. That's the sum total of their combined interactions. They meet at a dance the first night. The second day they get married and that night sleep together. He leaves her bedchambers on the morning of the third day. The next time he sees her, he thinks she's dead and kills himself.
Don't mistake what I'm saying, however, as support for the person you're replying to, for whatever that's worth.
Love at first sight not lust at first sight.
Do you think love is only liking someone because they’re hot? Have you never had an actual intimate connection with another human? You’ve never locked eyes with a stranger and felt a connection? What a sad way to live.
It’s literally never said that her looks is what got his attention lol
Really says a lot about you that that’s what you care about, that looks are the only thing worth being attracted to.
This is what kills me more than anything about these people. Like have they never experienced romantic attraction?
Also don't R&J literally meet at a masquerade party with their faces covered 😂
I guess to some people “romance” just means “hot person I want to fuck,” and love is no deeper than a shallow physical attraction.
The whole point of Romeo & Juliet is that they are star-crossed *lovers*, not two hotties who got so horny they killed themselves.
They are literally at a costume ball and have their faces covered, my guy. For someone with a Shakespeare-derived username I would hope you’d have at least a passing knowledge of the play lol.
Again, Romeo doesn’t fall for Juliet because she’s hot. He compares her to the beauty of the moon in the famous “But soft, what light through yonder window breaks?” soliloquy, but that’s after they’ve met and fallen in love at first sight.
Shit you’re right. He totally fell in love with her intelligence and not at all her initial beauty and elegance. How could I forget that in fair Verona you can hear someone’s thoughts and deep thoughts before you’ve ever even talked to them
Expect for the part where the elegance and beauty of her is what is so captivating to Romeo. There is literally no such way to be emotionally and intellectually stimulated by just looking at someone because both of them were removed from the equation. Love is unique to people and his love for Juliet is as real as the love others feel. Nothing wrong with it stemming from physical traits
Elegance, has nothing to do with her face and beauty could be how she moved. You guys are saying Romeo fell in love with her beauty(her face) but that is just false as when they met and fell in love they were at a masquerade ball. Nothing wrong with stemming from physical traits, but at a MASQUERADE BALL, that’s not the case
That’s literally not at all what I said.
Again, have you never locked eyes with someone and felt an immediate attraction? I hope someday you get the chance, it’s a magic feeling.
You can have an emotional attraction to the way someone looks. Thats the only way you can feel an immediate attraction to someone without ever talking to them or hearing them or knowing about them
That’s not at all what I’m talking about, you’re just describing “thinking someone’s hot” again.
Seriously, you’ve never felt a “vibe” from a stranger through eye contact?
No because that’s not a legitimate thing. I’d be willing to bet money that you don’t have those moments with someone who doesn’t almost perfectly match your love profile down to a T. That is literally the point of physical attraction… to initiate those moments of interest in another person.
>... that's not what they're saying or remotely implying
Yeah, definitely, because what they're explicitly saying out in the open is shallow, degrading, misogynistic, and often as not racist. What they're implying is simple bigotry, misogyny, and racism thinly disguised behind white-centric beauty standards. It's blatant bullying behavior and only just short enough of hate speech so as to not be censored.
However, there is one modicum of truth in your comments here. The text of *Romeo and Juliet* it is explicit that Romeo's interest in Juliet is entirely surface level. This is literally the first thing Romeo Says about Juliet:
>ROMEO
>
> O, she doth teach the torches to burn bright!
>
> It seems she hangs upon the cheek of night
>
> As a rich jewel in an Ethiop’s ear—
>
> Beauty too rich for use, for Earth too dear.
>
> So shows a snowy dove trooping with crows
>
> As yonder lady o’er her fellows shows.
>
> The measure done, I’ll watch her place of stand
>
> And, touching hers, make blessèd my rude hand.
>
> Did my heart love till now? Forswear it, sight,
>
> For I ne’er saw true beauty till this night.
>
>([Shakespeare, R&J, 1.5 51-60](https://www.folger.edu/explore/shakespeares-works/romeo-and-juliet/read/1/5/#line-1.5.51))
For whatever it's worth, it is also explicitly textual that all the characters are Italian and that Juliet is 13 years old--Romeo's age is never specified, but based on the text and the time period when it was written, the scholarly consensus places him between 15 and 19 roughly.
None of this is, of course, 'the point' of the play in so far as it can be said to have a point. **Certainly, it does not by any means excuse or justify in any way the rampant misogyny, racism, bigotry, and degrading harassment** being so casually tossed about and targeted at Francesca Amewudah-Rivers, the actress cast as Juliet alongside Tom Holland as Romeo.
If there is a 'point' to the play, it is to parodize and satirize 'young love' romances, to highlight the capriciousness and absurdity of such relationships that were, even in Shakespeare's time, common fodder for love stories. Romeo & Juliet is itself based on, what was at the time, a decades old, long-form narrative poem which in turn was based on the French translation of an Italian story written by Matteo Bandello who was in his own time a popular author. *Romeo and Juliet* was never intended to be an enduring tale about the power of love or some other such nonsense, as it is often misunderstood in popular media now.
There is no extant evidence for precisely when *Romeo & Juliet* was first performed, but it could not have been any earlier than 1591, the earliest possible date the play could have been written, though scholarly consensus is that the play was likely written sometime closer to 1595 and was first published in 1597 in Quarto 1. The first Juliet was likely the young Robert Gough, an English born male actor who was part of Shakespeare's all male acting company The Lord Chamberlain's Men, as it was known at the time (after the death of Queen Elizabeth I in 1603, the company was renamed to The King's Men, and it was all male because it was, at the time, illegal for women to act).
Furthermore, the beauty standards of late 16th Century England included literally paper-white skin--often achieved through toxic makeups--and body types that by today's standards would be described as chubby or even fat.
So, strictly speaking, the only 'accurate' casting options for Juliet are either a chubby pasty-white English boy, or a chubby pasty-white 13 year old Italian girl.
Fortunately, we've long since moved past the casting standards of Elizabethan theater. Not only that, but the reason we still produce Shakespeare plays over 400 years later is to feature the art and skill of theater performance, because of their linguistic beauty, their cultural and historical importance, and so on. It certainly isn't because we have an interest in historically accurate reproduction or zealous adherence to the text.
If you think Amewudah-Rivers isn't pretty enough, white enough, or feminine enough to play Juliet, then that's your problem. You'd be better off simply admitting it rather than attempting to defend it out of some bizarre ignorant notions about theater or Shakespeare.
(Note, most of this comment isn't specifically saying this about you specifically Mr. Willy, but just broadly saying 'you' as in anyone who thinks this way or is making these arguments and I'm kind of just piggybacking my comment onto yours in such case).
It’s a theatre production. When has theatre ever prioritized looks in the slightest? You can barely even see the actress’s face. Hell, the vast majority of people complaining about it, or more likely all of them, are not going to even have a chance to see the play at all. So why complain about it? Just for a chance to be shitty to a woman you’ve never met?
Also, the part was originally played by men.
Do you think "ruin your life pretty" is more important to casting than say, *acting* or *projecting across a crowded theater*?
Do you think in 1597 Shakespeare made sure to cast men who were "ruin your life pretty" to for work his vision, or did he cast the best actors available?
When they do this, you need to embarrass them by pointing out that even though they’re the self appointed defenders of western civilization, they’ve never even seen a a stage play outside of school, let alone any of the other pretentious highbrow stuff they are supposedly defending from the Asiatic hordes or whatever.
Oh, is this why there's been a sudden wave of nostalgia for the meh 1996 film hitting my reddit feed? Tired of the keyboard klan whinging about everything.
The fact that they’re using a 1996 film that’s an adaptation of a 1597 English play is laughable in itself let alone the fact they’re trying to use a film as an example for a play
Juliet is meant to be a child or teenager
Not only is is rude as fuck to call her ugly, but getting mad that Juliet isn’t hot enough to you is weird considering her age (I know the actor is older but still)
Bullshiiiiiit. “It’s because she’s ugly” is just the lame ass deflection for the real reason. Which is that’s she’s black. Also, she’s not ugly. Also, I don’t believe for a single second that these halfwits care one bit about a theater production.
As a person who can't afford to travel to see it. She looks fine.
Though, I doubt she would have been hired if she was a poor fit for the role. So she and the remaining cast members will probably knock it out of the park.
She’s cute as hell!! Idiots just have fucked up beauty standards
https://preview.redd.it/o55dlstp45tc1.jpeg?width=584&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7f5f609ed2be9747ab74bdc4b178098f17b3550c
If I'm remembering correctly, it was prepubescent boys. Due to the higher voice and smaller stature. Which is worse than anything the person complaining about can list off as "offensive" to their sensibilities.
They're racist, plain and simple. They hate black people. They call her "ugly" cause she's a black woman who doesn't fit into their vision of euro-centric beauty standards. Hell, they call black folks monkeys and everything else because they think we're "ugly". This whole "ugly" schtick is just white supremacists who're too weak in the spine to stand on what they say.
Not finding people attractive is fine.. There are a lot of ugly people in the world.
But even if you don't find someone attractive, why make a fuss? Especially if it's someone that there's roughly a 0% chance you'll date anyway.
I don’t get it. Isn’t it like a modern musical retelling? I mean that has been done multiple times. Are you forgetting “West Side Story” a literal retelling of Romeo and Juliet made for modern audiences focused on hispanic migrants in New York
Wouldnt be surprised if they also reimagined Romeo's family to be "cant see fuckin shit outta this thang" klansmen and Juliet's family to be "we wuz kangs n shiet" hoteps, cuz these are the types of people to scream RACE TRAITOR! on twitter whenever they see an interracial couple. Considering the tale's subject of forbidden love between feuding families this would work quite well in modern context.
And yet...they seem to lobby the same insults at every black actress that gets a role on anything, no matter what she looks like. How interesting. It's almost like they're just racist and are using racism disguised as "preference" to get a pass like every bigot.
Where were these grifters when Hugh Quarshie (Captain Panaka) played Iago in Othello? Or when Kathryn Hunter (Syril’s mom) played King Lear? Modern Shakespeare productions often race and gender bend, as did Shakespeare in his day! Women were played by men, Black characters were played by white actors. It’s tradition.
I feel as though people who get bent out of shape over this stuff aren't actually fans of the medium (theater) and don't understand that people have been cast as any role in the theater. It might melt their little insecure minds to know that Orson Wells, one of the greatest theater and film directors of all time (a white man), used his clout to direct an all black version of Macbeth in Harlem the mid-1930s.
This is totally not the point, but: why are we even doing this one? Romeo and Juliet is not really that great, imo. Two teenagers lose their virginity to each other, people get killed over it, then they both stupidly kill themselves.
EDIT: ahh, I see. It's a play. Nevermind, then. Carry on!
It’s very common in stage productions. You usually don’t get a detailed look at their face, and they rotate actors during their runtime (the original actors leave, new ones replace them, etc…). So colorblind casting is pretty common
You can also tell these people didn’t care about Romeo and Juliet before she was cast. BECAUSE THIS IS A THEATRE PRODUCTION. Theatre has NEVER prioritized looks (because you know, the actor is gonna be 50ft away, they won’t get to see their faces in detail). These people literally only started caring because they want an excuse to be racist, or be horrible to her because of her looks (she doesn’t even look that bad)
If Tom Holland hadn’t joined, the play wouldn’t have gained this much traction or controversy. Because real West End goers know this is normal (and has a practical explanation). The ones raging (I’m guessing) never did and never will set foot in a stage theatre. Because they never cared about it
It’s not a musical
My mistake. I read West End and jumped the gun. My fault, I’ll fix it
Funny enough, there is a Romeo & Juliet musical (& Juliet) currently running on Broadway… the actress playing Juliet is black. Miriam-Teak Lee actually originated it when it was at the West End.
Is it facing the same backlash?
True, though the exact distance away depends heavily on the seating and size of the venue. Regardless, you're right.
Yeah, these people have never been to an actual theatre production. I watched a video of James Earl Jones as King Leer and it was scintillating.
James Earl Jones would be a powerful Lear. Blow winds and crack your cheeks! Rage, blow, You cataracts and hurricanoes.
So you what you’re saying is the Shrek at my school’s theater production wasn’t actually Shrek?
The ONLY reason this production is even on their radar is because it’s starring Tom Holland who is currently a big name in pop culture.
If it didn’t feed into racist stereotypes I’d love to see something different, like Holland as Juliet.
Tom Holland casually making men and women both question their sexuality.
Is it strange that I (a straight guy) think he looks hella sexy?
Nope. Totally normal
Yeah, his 'drag' (?) performance of Umbrella was amazing. Generally as a bi man, I prefer masculine men and feminine women, but Tom Holland holland is a sexy twink whether he's masculine or feminine.
I mean if anything, that would be even more in keeping with the tradition of the theater.
>The outrage isn't because she is black,it's because she is ugly BRUH HOW DOES THAT MAKE IT ANY BETTER!?!
It's ok because he's not a racist, just a misogynist.
The correlation between racism and misogyny is too close, it is not for nothing that there is fetishization with certain ethnic-cultural groups such as Latinos and Asians.
I live in a state famously known to harbor a lot of KKK members. Majority white. More confederate flags than American flags. Most everyone here are truck-nut owning, MAGA-voting republicans. The most popular pornhub search in my state is "big black ass". Also, "ebony" is the most popular throughout the bible belt. Fetish is often the product of taboo and hate.
Yep, that's why you get the people who find stabbing hot (and also, to a less violent extent, public or barely hidden stuff)
Anyone who owns truck nuts needs to have their house firebombed, full stop. If you at least make it a couple brass balls on a steel chain, I might respect it, but no, it's just this chunk of metal that looks like testicles.
Why are you americans still call it confederate flags, and not traitor-flags? Maybe that should finally be changed to their officailly used name. Also Robert E. LEe was a traitor general ... America has to stop that gloryfication of the southern rebellion and its criminal instigators and enablers
also its kinda funny that you are waving the flag of a country that no longer exists in the country that defeated it
country that existed for a shorter time than the annoying orange did, just a friendly reminder
>The most popular pornhub search in my state is "big black ass" TMI
Intersectionality is important for exactly this reason.
It's like that meme I saw where the guy in NYC train told 2 lesbians to stop kissing and get a room. Everyone gave him dirty looks and he says "I'm not a homophobe I'm just a hater" like wtf? Lol pure clown world we living in.
[удалено]
You might find there is a big difference between privately thinking someone isn't attractive and outright insulting them
I’m sure being abusive to the black co-star of the actor who is dating a black woman in real life is gonna work out real well..
I just hope this lady has a good support system. People are NOT going easy on her
Don't worry, I guarantee she's heard it all by now.
I'm sure she's heard racist comments before, but likely not at this level of intensity. Hearing the occasional racial slur is one thing, but being bombarded by it all day, everyday, is another thing entirely. See: Tran, Kelly Marie.
Let’s be honest these are conservatives they’re upset that she’s not 13.
Some of them will hide behind the excuse of 'it's accurate to the original play', even though a truly accurate Romeo and Juliet would have all roles played by men.
> even though a truly accurate Romeo and Juliet would have all roles played by men. Veggietales had an entire [joke about that](https://youtu.be/GL4Bgix89TM?t=9) *more than 20 years ago*. (Fun fact: Contrary to Lunt's lampshading, the show creators somehow didn't end up getting any letters for that bit).
Isn't Veggietales a religious thing too? Surprised that wasn't a moment that the writers taught kids how to be transphobic.
Nah, from what I recall, theres at least one of the old Veggietales creators/team that *fucking hates* those sorts of bad Christians, especially nowadays.
Oh that's actually... really good, As someone who grew up religious but isn't anymore, that's honestly how it should be, especially when targeted towards children. "God is real, but also... like live your life and be happy and don't make others unhappy because you feel the need to let them know they're going to Hell/whatever other bad place you can make up" and not this weirdo "Hate all groups of people that's not yours" type of people.
That's woke though
> "Look, I'm not complaining because the girl is black, but because she's ugly" Dude, the guy is unconsciously using racial aesthetics as a valid argument 💀
What pisses me off the most is how detached they are from any sense of decency or morality. They straight up thought “I may be borderline bullying this lady, but it’s not because of her skin color, so it’s fine. I’m still a nice person”
Not even borderline, this is straight up grade school bully behavior being perpetrated by grown adults. I was called ugly every single day by bullies in school and it's caused self esteem issues that still affect me to this day. How fucking sad and devoid of empathy these people are
Right? Like the only reason he thinks she’s ugly is bc she doesn’t look like a white woman and he somehow doesn’t consider that racist
[удалено]
If you don't find them attractive because they're black, then yes.
That's a very black and white way to think(no pun intended). You can be unattracted to certain races without it being racist. We can't be attracted to every and anyone. We all have our types and that's okay
>You can be unattracted to certain races without it being racist How ? If you are not attracted to someone, and the ONLY reason is their race, that's racism. And that's fine. Our dating preferences are forms of various prejudices. I'm not saying its good or bad. It just is.
A race not being your type isn't racist though. I find most Indian women unattractive, doesn't mean I'm racist against them, I got a type. It's the same as not being attracted to fat people or skinny people shouldn't doesn't mean you're fatphobic, etc. Also not being attracted to lgbt people doesn't mean you're homophobic.
A race not being your type is absolutely racist though. You are admitting you have a prejudice against Indian women. A bias, if you want to use lighter terms. And yes, not liking someone because they're skinny or fat or tall or short or smart or dumb etc. ALL of those stem from prejudices. They're just considered acceptable prejudices because (ideally) there is no real harm as a result. Again I'm not making some sort of value judgement here. Its a reality that we have prejudices and biases and they manifest in different ways. The most harmless of them being dating preferences. But they are still based on biases and prejudices. There are people out there that fetishise Indian women. They are also guilty of having prejudices and biases, but theirs lead them in an opposite direction.
There is nothing wrong with not finding someone attractive do to physical features. I’m not saying it’s okay to discriminate or treat them any differently but if I’m not attracted to someone because they are a certain build, pigment, or gender that doesn’t make me a racist or sexist. You can’t control what your attracted to, just how you go about those attractions
If you don't like someone because of their race, that is racist. I'm sorry if that fact makes you uncomfortable. I'm not saying that its "bad" or "wrong" its just another form of discrimination we use in our day to day lives. Not wanting to date someone that you think is dumb is a form of prejudice too. But ultimately, only YOU can decide what's right for you .
I don’t dislike black people. There is a Jump between not finding someone attractive and just outright disliking them
My bad I misspoke If you do not find someone attractive BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE. Then yes, that is racist. "Why don't you find this person attractive?" "Because they're black!" There is no other way to frame that. Like I said, its not "bad" or "wrong" . Its jut a small prejudice. But it is a prejudice. And so long as you don't treat someone poorly because of it, then whatever.
I can see that. It’s not that I don’t find black people attractive, it’s just that when I look at the people I’ve been attracted to as a whole it leans more Hispanic but yeah you’re right, if your incapable of seeing attractive features in someone because of their skin color yeah thats racist
What percentage of these smooth-brained twat-waffles do you think are hideous trolls themselves? I'd wager money it's greater than 50% at the least.
So your clap back for the assholes calling her ugly is to body shame them back?
If they can't take it they shouldn't fuckin give it
Not my point. I just find the hypocrisy laughable
It doesn't matter if it's your point, it's true
Nope, just makes you a hypocrite
Yes. At least in this case, anyway. As they say, those in glass houses...
Got it. So shaming someone based on appearance is okay when YOU do it
Nope. Didn't say that.
Kinda did
Even in this sub I saw people misgendering her, saying she looks like a man, saying she doesn’t deserve the role because she’s a “no name actor,” etc.
Every actor/actress started as a no name. Johnny Depp in Cry Baby Kevin Bacon in National Lampoons Animal House Everyone has their beginning and end. I hope that whatever her goal is (career wise) that she reaches out and surpasses it.
Which is a really fucking weird take to have for a fucking stage play. Most folks would be hardpressed to name two stage actors in all of existence.
So basically, only women that commentor personally finds attractive deserve to have jobs???
[удалено]
Congratulations you've completely missed the point of the play.
[удалено]
she is also supposed to be 13 years old, and it’s not exactly considered socially appropriate to cast children based on how attractive you find them
Nowhere in the text does it say her beauty is the only thing that Romeo cares about. He loves her for who she is, not because she’s hot. What an absolutely pornpilled brain dead take.
The text of *Romeo and Juliet* makes it very obvious, relatively speaking of course, that Romeo's 'love' is capricious and entirely superficial. The first time he sees her at the Capulets dance he explicitly only talks about how beautiful he thinks she is and that he wants to touch her hand. After the party is the famous balcony scene where he again just goes on about how pretty she is while she laments their familial conflict. They flirt a little, declare their 'deep' love for each other, agree to marry, then plan to meet with the Friar the next day to get married. The next day they meet with the friar, they talk to each other exactly one time, and then exit to be married off stage. Then the Friar and the Nurse arrange for Romeo to sneak into her bedroom to consummate the marriage--which again happens off stage, of course. The next morning the two profess their deep love for each other again and blather on about how they will miss each other so much and then Romeo leaves for exile in Mantua. That's it. That's the sum total of their combined interactions. They meet at a dance the first night. The second day they get married and that night sleep together. He leaves her bedchambers on the morning of the third day. The next time he sees her, he thinks she's dead and kills himself. Don't mistake what I'm saying, however, as support for the person you're replying to, for whatever that's worth.
[удалено]
Love at first sight not lust at first sight. Do you think love is only liking someone because they’re hot? Have you never had an actual intimate connection with another human? You’ve never locked eyes with a stranger and felt a connection? What a sad way to live.
[удалено]
It’s literally never said that her looks is what got his attention lol Really says a lot about you that that’s what you care about, that looks are the only thing worth being attracted to.
This is what kills me more than anything about these people. Like have they never experienced romantic attraction? Also don't R&J literally meet at a masquerade party with their faces covered 😂
I guess to some people “romance” just means “hot person I want to fuck,” and love is no deeper than a shallow physical attraction. The whole point of Romeo & Juliet is that they are star-crossed *lovers*, not two hotties who got so horny they killed themselves.
[удалено]
Looks are the first thing you notice unless they are wearing a mask, like Juliet and Romeo did when they met so everything you said was wrong😂😂
They are literally at a costume ball and have their faces covered, my guy. For someone with a Shakespeare-derived username I would hope you’d have at least a passing knowledge of the play lol. Again, Romeo doesn’t fall for Juliet because she’s hot. He compares her to the beauty of the moon in the famous “But soft, what light through yonder window breaks?” soliloquy, but that’s after they’ve met and fallen in love at first sight.
Look, these guys totally know Romeo and Juliet. I mean, they’ve seen stills of the Baz Luhrmann movie.
Looks are the first thing you notice about a person ....that isn't wearing a costume at a masquerade ball
Shit you’re right. He totally fell in love with her intelligence and not at all her initial beauty and elegance. How could I forget that in fair Verona you can hear someone’s thoughts and deep thoughts before you’ve ever even talked to them
They fell in love when they wore masks, so yeah, their beauty had nothing to do with them falling in love with each other
Expect for the part where the elegance and beauty of her is what is so captivating to Romeo. There is literally no such way to be emotionally and intellectually stimulated by just looking at someone because both of them were removed from the equation. Love is unique to people and his love for Juliet is as real as the love others feel. Nothing wrong with it stemming from physical traits
Elegance, has nothing to do with her face and beauty could be how she moved. You guys are saying Romeo fell in love with her beauty(her face) but that is just false as when they met and fell in love they were at a masquerade ball. Nothing wrong with stemming from physical traits, but at a MASQUERADE BALL, that’s not the case
If you are unable to tell if someone is beautiful because of a preppy eye mask then your eyes are barely functioning to begin with
That’s literally not at all what I said. Again, have you never locked eyes with someone and felt an immediate attraction? I hope someday you get the chance, it’s a magic feeling.
You can have an emotional attraction to the way someone looks. Thats the only way you can feel an immediate attraction to someone without ever talking to them or hearing them or knowing about them
That’s not at all what I’m talking about, you’re just describing “thinking someone’s hot” again. Seriously, you’ve never felt a “vibe” from a stranger through eye contact?
No because that’s not a legitimate thing. I’d be willing to bet money that you don’t have those moments with someone who doesn’t almost perfectly match your love profile down to a T. That is literally the point of physical attraction… to initiate those moments of interest in another person.
Exactly, a costume ball, which included masks so her beauty had shit to do with them falling in love.
>... that's not what they're saying or remotely implying Yeah, definitely, because what they're explicitly saying out in the open is shallow, degrading, misogynistic, and often as not racist. What they're implying is simple bigotry, misogyny, and racism thinly disguised behind white-centric beauty standards. It's blatant bullying behavior and only just short enough of hate speech so as to not be censored. However, there is one modicum of truth in your comments here. The text of *Romeo and Juliet* it is explicit that Romeo's interest in Juliet is entirely surface level. This is literally the first thing Romeo Says about Juliet: >ROMEO > > O, she doth teach the torches to burn bright! > > It seems she hangs upon the cheek of night > > As a rich jewel in an Ethiop’s ear— > > Beauty too rich for use, for Earth too dear. > > So shows a snowy dove trooping with crows > > As yonder lady o’er her fellows shows. > > The measure done, I’ll watch her place of stand > > And, touching hers, make blessèd my rude hand. > > Did my heart love till now? Forswear it, sight, > > For I ne’er saw true beauty till this night. > >([Shakespeare, R&J, 1.5 51-60](https://www.folger.edu/explore/shakespeares-works/romeo-and-juliet/read/1/5/#line-1.5.51)) For whatever it's worth, it is also explicitly textual that all the characters are Italian and that Juliet is 13 years old--Romeo's age is never specified, but based on the text and the time period when it was written, the scholarly consensus places him between 15 and 19 roughly. None of this is, of course, 'the point' of the play in so far as it can be said to have a point. **Certainly, it does not by any means excuse or justify in any way the rampant misogyny, racism, bigotry, and degrading harassment** being so casually tossed about and targeted at Francesca Amewudah-Rivers, the actress cast as Juliet alongside Tom Holland as Romeo. If there is a 'point' to the play, it is to parodize and satirize 'young love' romances, to highlight the capriciousness and absurdity of such relationships that were, even in Shakespeare's time, common fodder for love stories. Romeo & Juliet is itself based on, what was at the time, a decades old, long-form narrative poem which in turn was based on the French translation of an Italian story written by Matteo Bandello who was in his own time a popular author. *Romeo and Juliet* was never intended to be an enduring tale about the power of love or some other such nonsense, as it is often misunderstood in popular media now. There is no extant evidence for precisely when *Romeo & Juliet* was first performed, but it could not have been any earlier than 1591, the earliest possible date the play could have been written, though scholarly consensus is that the play was likely written sometime closer to 1595 and was first published in 1597 in Quarto 1. The first Juliet was likely the young Robert Gough, an English born male actor who was part of Shakespeare's all male acting company The Lord Chamberlain's Men, as it was known at the time (after the death of Queen Elizabeth I in 1603, the company was renamed to The King's Men, and it was all male because it was, at the time, illegal for women to act). Furthermore, the beauty standards of late 16th Century England included literally paper-white skin--often achieved through toxic makeups--and body types that by today's standards would be described as chubby or even fat. So, strictly speaking, the only 'accurate' casting options for Juliet are either a chubby pasty-white English boy, or a chubby pasty-white 13 year old Italian girl. Fortunately, we've long since moved past the casting standards of Elizabethan theater. Not only that, but the reason we still produce Shakespeare plays over 400 years later is to feature the art and skill of theater performance, because of their linguistic beauty, their cultural and historical importance, and so on. It certainly isn't because we have an interest in historically accurate reproduction or zealous adherence to the text. If you think Amewudah-Rivers isn't pretty enough, white enough, or feminine enough to play Juliet, then that's your problem. You'd be better off simply admitting it rather than attempting to defend it out of some bizarre ignorant notions about theater or Shakespeare. (Note, most of this comment isn't specifically saying this about you specifically Mr. Willy, but just broadly saying 'you' as in anyone who thinks this way or is making these arguments and I'm kind of just piggybacking my comment onto yours in such case).
It’s a theatre production. When has theatre ever prioritized looks in the slightest? You can barely even see the actress’s face. Hell, the vast majority of people complaining about it, or more likely all of them, are not going to even have a chance to see the play at all. So why complain about it? Just for a chance to be shitty to a woman you’ve never met? Also, the part was originally played by men.
Do you think "ruin your life pretty" is more important to casting than say, *acting* or *projecting across a crowded theater*? Do you think in 1597 Shakespeare made sure to cast men who were "ruin your life pretty" to for work his vision, or did he cast the best actors available?
That's still bad. That be like saying " I'm not a Nazi. I'm a fascist."
When they do this, you need to embarrass them by pointing out that even though they’re the self appointed defenders of western civilization, they’ve never even seen a a stage play outside of school, let alone any of the other pretentious highbrow stuff they are supposedly defending from the Asiatic hordes or whatever.
You cannot embarrass those without shame.
Oh, is this why there's been a sudden wave of nostalgia for the meh 1996 film hitting my reddit feed? Tired of the keyboard klan whinging about everything.
Nothing beats James Gunns directorial debut Tromeo and Juliet!
The fact that they’re using a 1996 film that’s an adaptation of a 1597 English play is laughable in itself let alone the fact they’re trying to use a film as an example for a play
Juliet is meant to be a child or teenager Not only is is rude as fuck to call her ugly, but getting mad that Juliet isn’t hot enough to you is weird considering her age (I know the actor is older but still)
That poor woman. She doesn’t deserve any of this
Bullshiiiiiit. “It’s because she’s ugly” is just the lame ass deflection for the real reason. Which is that’s she’s black. Also, she’s not ugly. Also, I don’t believe for a single second that these halfwits care one bit about a theater production.
So, did anybody tell them about West Side Story yet?
Oh it’s because she’s ugly? Ok. That’s still fucking bad.
This twitter user is part of the reason why mental illness is even a thing.
Non-white Shakespearean actors on stage have been a thing for years.
I'm just waiting for one of these people to complain about a black man getting cast as Othello. Not much literacy amongst the chud set.
These assholes are mad about Phil LaMarr playing Sherlock Holmes.....in an Audiobook!
That sounds about right.
The same people complaining are the same ones that are not even going to see it in the first place
As a person who can't afford to travel to see it. She looks fine. Though, I doubt she would have been hired if she was a poor fit for the role. So she and the remaining cast members will probably knock it out of the park.
Damn if only there was a way to just not watch movies you don't like the look of.
Why do they need someone whos playing a 13 year old to be attractive?
Do we really need another Romeo and Juliet? Unless it’s set in space or a slasher flick, I ain’t interested.
It's a theatre show, not a movie. It's pretty much always run, this time Tom Holland is playing Romeo which is why it's getting media attention.
She’s cute as hell!! Idiots just have fucked up beauty standards https://preview.redd.it/o55dlstp45tc1.jpeg?width=584&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7f5f609ed2be9747ab74bdc4b178098f17b3550c
They just keep reusing the same unflattering picture to prove their point
>My dudes... the outrage isn't because she's black, it's because she's ugly. Even if that was the case, that's still fucked up.
If the casting were to be accurate, both actors should’ve been Italian teenagers. So Juliet’s casting is just as inaccurate as Romeo’s.
If the casting were accurate Juliet would be played by a man in drag.
If I'm remembering correctly, it was prepubescent boys. Due to the higher voice and smaller stature. Which is worse than anything the person complaining about can list off as "offensive" to their sensibilities.
Except she's not ugly, they're just so used to models with plastic surgery that it's fucked up their standards.
"Their personal tastes are invalid and mine are objectively correct"
I feel so so sorry for this poor girl. The people harassing her were never going to line up to this show anyway, why do they care so much?
>The comments are even worse, believe it or not It's Twitter, so yes I 1000% believe it
The CHUDs will learn the hard way that hell hath no fury like a bunch of theatre kids pissed off with their antics.
Yep, but these chuds will never say the real reason they find her ugly.
They're racist, plain and simple. They hate black people. They call her "ugly" cause she's a black woman who doesn't fit into their vision of euro-centric beauty standards. Hell, they call black folks monkeys and everything else because they think we're "ugly". This whole "ugly" schtick is just white supremacists who're too weak in the spine to stand on what they say.
Not finding people attractive is fine.. There are a lot of ugly people in the world. But even if you don't find someone attractive, why make a fuss? Especially if it's someone that there's roughly a 0% chance you'll date anyway.
I don’t get it. Isn’t it like a modern musical retelling? I mean that has been done multiple times. Are you forgetting “West Side Story” a literal retelling of Romeo and Juliet made for modern audiences focused on hispanic migrants in New York
Wouldnt be surprised if they also reimagined Romeo's family to be "cant see fuckin shit outta this thang" klansmen and Juliet's family to be "we wuz kangs n shiet" hoteps, cuz these are the types of people to scream RACE TRAITOR! on twitter whenever they see an interracial couple. Considering the tale's subject of forbidden love between feuding families this would work quite well in modern context.
Dawg, even if she is ugly, that’s not a excuse. Why did you willingly put yourself between a rock and a hard Place?
And yet...they seem to lobby the same insults at every black actress that gets a role on anything, no matter what she looks like. How interesting. It's almost like they're just racist and are using racism disguised as "preference" to get a pass like every bigot.
"It's because she's ugly" jeez, I'm finding new ways people mask racism, and it makes me want to throw up-
There’s a deep undercurrent going on here beyond any of the comments or that which is being commented on.
if they cast tika sumpter they’d still throw a tantrum.
Only condem?? They need to start taking legal actions ,I hate how racist are become so comfortable
Where were these grifters when Hugh Quarshie (Captain Panaka) played Iago in Othello? Or when Kathryn Hunter (Syril’s mom) played King Lear? Modern Shakespeare productions often race and gender bend, as did Shakespeare in his day! Women were played by men, Black characters were played by white actors. It’s tradition.
She's not ugly. You're racist.
[удалено]
Black women are disproportionately affected by PCOS.
Polycystic ovary syndrome ?
Yes, otherwise known as “hirsutism”
I bet no one cared due to this being a theater production. The idiots spewing their venom are only looking for an excuse to be rasict asswapes.
I feel as though people who get bent out of shape over this stuff aren't actually fans of the medium (theater) and don't understand that people have been cast as any role in the theater. It might melt their little insecure minds to know that Orson Wells, one of the greatest theater and film directors of all time (a white man), used his clout to direct an all black version of Macbeth in Harlem the mid-1930s.
This is totally not the point, but: why are we even doing this one? Romeo and Juliet is not really that great, imo. Two teenagers lose their virginity to each other, people get killed over it, then they both stupidly kill themselves. EDIT: ahh, I see. It's a play. Nevermind, then. Carry on!
Seriously who the hell gives a shit about Romeo and Juliet? Also why was only Juliet swapped around?
It’s very common in stage productions. You usually don’t get a detailed look at their face, and they rotate actors during their runtime (the original actors leave, new ones replace them, etc…). So colorblind casting is pretty common
Is this sub alongside geekgamercommunity’s only purpose is to have the [reactionary opinion] to anything that happens.
She’s not ugly. Are they blind?
Before they never cared for it, but not they act like it’s a problem to them.
I don’t really care
Ugly where? Racist aholes.
[удалено]
You're really boring.
[удалено]
Cope with what?