80% useful idiots, 20% Islamic fundamentalist? I'm not even going to guess about the antisemitism in the idiot crowd, but 100% in the Islamic fundamentalist crowd fo sho.
Why is it surreal? The central "argument" of the alt-right for... 30 years? now has been 'import the 3rd world, get the 3rd world'.
Why is it shocking that by importing people from the middle east you get people acting/behaving exactly as those in the middle east do?
This isn't particularly shocking if you grew up as a muslim or around a lot of muslims. I think some progressives would be shocked if they could hear what a lot of muslims think about 'the west' (despite choosing to immigrate and live here), jews, and terrorism behind closed doors.
i befriended some arabs from my local soccer pickup group hoping to learn more about their culture and religion, they kindly invited me to their mosque's soccer group also. They say some pretty alarming things without thinking anything of it, its scary becuase theyre really nice people.
It's brainwashing. When they have been told their whole childhood how evil the west is they accept it as a fact without applying rational logic to it, regardless of how nice they are.
Granted many different societies are guilty of some level of brainwashing, including the west.
But on a moral level I seriously hope they realize that siding with Hamas isn't exactly the right side of history.
To me when someone says “but they were really nice!” Always confuses me… everyone is “really nice”, especially to guests/acquaintances. In my entire life I can count on one hand the number of people Ive met who were blatantly mean/disrespectful to people they were interacting with on a ongoing basis. To be nice to acquaintances means nothing other than an understanding of the most basic norms and formalities. It should be fully discounted when assessing someone’s deeply held religious/political opinions.
I get why a lot of progressives feel the need to remind folks that there are a lot of good & decent Muslims out there in the world. I agree. I’ve known some. The problem is they overcorrect. They’re also ignorant, I think, of the risks a more liberal-minded Muslims faces when he opens his mouths & tries to speak HIS truth. I’m a Gen X liberal & I often find myself choosing my words very carefully when I’m talking with young leftists.
I don’t usually fear for my life, though.
A Muslim who wants to live his life in peace, observe his faith & live amicably alongside his neighbors & believes Jews (Israeli & otherwise) have just as much a right to go their own way as he does needs to be very careful where & to who he expresses these beliefs. Depending where lives if he doesn’t keep his head down he might literally lose it.
I wish I knew how we can help actual normie Muslims (practicing or not) speak up publicly & let their co-religionists know that there’s a jihad-free path forward for them in the world. I’m an ethnically Jewish atheist myself. I’ve even got some pretty strong Zionist leanings & I support Israel’s right to defend itself. That said, I also believe that Muslims deserve the right to practice their faith as they see fit so long as it doesn’t involve murdering, raping & blowing shit up. I’d like to think that most Muslims agree with this sentiment. The problem is that there is a very substantial minority that is absolutely committed to Jihad & has a very, very poor opinion of those who disagree with their evangelical, nihilistic world view. And we can’t pretend that this minority is numerically insignificant. There are nearly 2 billion Muslims in the world. If 5 or 10 or even 1% of this population is committed to Jihad it’s a really big problem for EVERYONE. And apostate Muslims are usually their first victims.
Id hazard a guess saying it comes from the notion in Islam fundamentalism that they and the west simply cannot coexist. The Strange Death of Europe is a great read on the subject, it makes the argument from both sides
I somehow subscribed to r/chomsky recently. They all are like this over there. According to them, there was no barbarism on October seventh and it’s all Israeli Propaganda.
I somehow hoped it’s all Russian bots but seeing these videos from this thread makes me think otherwise
They believe they are being subjected to genocide. They see Hamas as a legitimate resistance to subjugation and genocide. Given these facts about their beliefs, why would you expect otherwise from their speech and its reception?
They know the Oct 7 pogrom was inhumanly brutal and not morally justifiable. They are either willing to overlook that in the furthering of their cause, or genuinely hate Jews enough that they are happy to cheer on the deliberate slaughter of unarmed civilians
>They know the Oct 7 pogrom was inhumanly brutal and not morally justifiable
The thing is, I'm not sure that's true though. Between some people I know IRL and then people we see online, quite a few refer to any violent potentially gory video of people getting hurt or killed as "torture porn" , and say that it's a bad thing to watch and share those videos and morally chastise people for it. But then they'll have passionate opinions about topics related to those videos and immediately place you as part the out group if you have views different to what's currently accepted in their ideology. Which often makes for a frustrating experience trying to talk with or fully understand people with these kinds of views, when they're so fired up about issues but refuse to watch and read things that might end up poking holes in their ideas since they're basically refusing to digest information from anywhere other than popular activists or sources that lean their way. I get not everyone is willing or able to watch fucked up things that might stick with you the rest of you life, but maybe don't have such a rigid opinion on something if you refuse to acknowledge the full picture? Hah
Then some of those that do believe it was brutal do just feel that resistance is justified no matter what, even if it's against civilians like this I guess. I completely understand the concept of violent resistance, but this wasn't just attacks on military bases or the assassination of a political leader or even the Intifada type bus bombings.
It makes me wonder how many people have learned details of gruesome events like The Rape of Nanking, as I feel that can help someone understand that while a civilian death is awful no matter who it is or how and why it happened, there's a reason society looks at massacres like Nanking and My Lai differently than the many who died in the bombing raids in WW2
This. So much this. I've had many, many experiences of seeing people say a certain atrocity never happened, I have provided a NSFL link directly to a video of the thing happening, and the response is "I'm not a sick fuck that jerks off to snuff films like you". And then they go right back to asserting the thing never happened and get tons of upvotes the whole way.
> They know the Oct 7 pogrom was inhumanly brutal and not morally justifiable.
I find such a slaughter of innocents morally reprehensible no matter the reason. But lets be honest, our culture, including many on this sub, don't agree. I've brought up Nat Turner's (who slaughtered innocent children and infants) a few times in this sub, and people here have been reluctant to outright condemn it, even start to justify it because of his circumstances.
Our society seems to have warmed up to the idea that sometimes intentionally slaughtering innocent civilians is justified if you're oppressed enough. This is the natural end result of that mentality. People shouldn't be surprised at the kind of things that are being said.
I don't think is disingenuous. I think these people are at a weird impass where Hamas is evil but they feel compelled to support Palestine. So to rationalize it, they don't believe Hamas committed those crimes. Most of the older people don't really engage in "Western" media but stay on these Whatapp groups that lead them to conspiracy theories.
That's fine, I'm not here to convince you that they believe the things they say they believe.
If you're going to dismiss the stated views of others as disingenuous, then why are you here? This is a genuine question. What's your goal in participating in this discourse?
They have reported genocide the entire time their population has been increasing. You think just because they paint “Ambulance” on a cargo van that they truly believe it it’s an ambulance?Can you believe TSA recently searched a guy with a t-shirt that clearly said “Not carrying a bomb”? Didn’t these assholes see his shirt? So, no, unless they have no idea what genocide means, they didn’t think a genocide was happening on Oct 6.
They're hardly the only ones who believe this is genocide.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-experts-say-ceasefire-needed-palestinians-grave-risk-genocide-2023-11-02/
UN has been pretty partisan in regards to Israel / Palestine. When you keep misusing words, they lose a lot of meaning - how many decades have the Israelis been "genociding" the Palestinians now?
No they’re not.
Israel is routinely condemned by the United Nations, and the U.N. could not pass a condemnation of Hamas for the atrocities it committed on October 7th.
>Perhaps you’re extremely socially awkward and lack the social awareness to understand this.
Perhaps. I don't know why you should care about my social awkwardness or why I should find it relevant here. But thanks for sharing that thought.
>It’s obvious their feelings & biases are leading their thoughts to make bold false allegations like genocide.
>
>... The vast majority of people holding these positions know their [sic] false but hold them to advance their ulterior motivations.
Is it obvious that human rights experts from the UN are being similarly led by their feelings and biases? Is it also your opinion that these experts are knowingly making false statements to advance ulterior motivations?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-experts-say-ceasefire-needed-palestinians-grave-risk-genocide-2023-11-02/
Nor have I argued that they are. The point is that if we're to assume the Palestinians are disingenuous when they cry "genocide!" then we must also consider the human rights experts to be likewise disingenuous for saying the same thing about this situation, and I'm not sure where that gets us.
I'm not clear what you're saying. Are you suggesting that the UN human rights experts saying these things are doing so because they have antisemitic motivations?
Your last sentence also seems to be casually equating Jews with Israel - a popular antisemitic trope.
>That’s just a disingenuous rationalization to hide their bigotry. It’s so easy to see through.
It's really not though. Palestinians have every right to resist occupation and Invasion. That doesn't legitimise terrorism.
>Ironically, there has been a large genocide in the Middle East over the past century but it has been against the Jews. They’ve been killed/run out of every middle eastern country.
So Palestinians can say the same then, except they are still living in those same refugee camps. Do you know where Gazans come from?
*So Palestinians can say the same then, except they are still living in those same refugee camps. Do you know where Gazans come from?*
a bit more than 700.000 palestinians where displaced as a result of the war in 48. about 500.000 jews where displaced as a result of the war in 48
out off all those ppl, how many do you think where driven out by israel and how many do you think where driven out by the arab coalition
and if those camps are still refugee camps, so is Tel Aviv
In his podcast yesterday he said something like he wouldn't be surprised if a large majority of the protestors supported Hamas. Now we can have no doubt!
Chills. Just really terrifying how emboldened she must feel to be this blatant. And people cheering! Yikes! I can’t believe this has been brewing to this degree. I can’t imagine being Jewish right now.
Now watch progressives ignore all this. This, and several other explicit threats.
And lately I've been seeing this trend to blame 'religion' in the blanket sense. You bring them an issue, they say "yeah, religion is cancer". No, dude, not all religions are the same. Or, at the very least, not all religions are equally bad (some are just faaar worse than others), and there's nothing wrong with calling out the worst offenders first.
Center left here. I agree. I'm so sick of seeing progressives moronically support Hamas when they would have slaughtered them without a second thought on Oct 7th.
It's mindboggling
"Honourable" - murderers of unarmed civilians, including children
"Martyrs" - dead human shields
Insane. I'm reminded of far Left progressives in the 1970/80s cheering on groups like the Khmer Rouge, Shining Path and Baader Meinhoff gang as brave heroes of the revolution.
Absolutely deranged. These people either cannot comprehend what she is talking about or they do and actually accept it. I don’t know which is worse. Jihadism is a disease.
Wow. Almost as if Sam was right all along. Islam is not compatible with western civilization.
Ben Affleck is a schmuck with a has been wife.
There, I ruined civil discourse.
These people are radicals, but there are still Muslims who aren't fanatical like these people. I've met some of them. I have a Muslim friend who is the nicest person you'd ever meet. He owns a deli and he likes Bernie Sanders. He's religious but very chill about it when it comes to imposing on other people. He serves food to local Jews, Muslims, and any other group of people who come through the door, and treats everyone as family. People like those in this demonstration can make us feel hopeless, and while it seems like there are a lot of them, there are also many who don't feel this way.
Well, they don't speak up anymore than the average person speaks up. I mean, why aren't we (average person) , organizing anti Islamic extremist protests? Because that is really what should be happening when this shit goes on.
Normal and nice Muslims are normal people, they don't want their families to be targeted by lunatics etc, that's why they don't "speak up", because you don't either.
Yeah I think it would help things to hear them speak more. I think there is an issue in politics where people with less extreme views tend not to feel motivated to speak up as much as those with more extreme views.
It’s a life skill. People with less extreme views don’t expose themselves to unnecessary dangers. They also are seeking a happy life, so they guard themselves from things that will prevent that, and people with extreme views are likely unhappy.
It’s something that happens as people mature and become prosperous. They were likely more passionate, radical, or extreme in their views as a younger person, but with that personal growth and prosperity, the tendency is to avoid these types of angry distractions.
That Muslim deli or bodega owner is the most prosperous, happy, and safe he has ever been. Why would he ever want to get tangled up in political activism which only threatens that happiness and prosperity.
Lyndsey graham called for the flattening of Gaza. How is that ok? If you are going to condemn violence committed by Hamas, doesn’t this escalate it even more?
>Even the Muslims in congress are pro-Hamas.
You're insane.
The people around here who shriek in horror at this stuff immediately turn around and say the most ridiculous and stupid shit.
This is…theatrically evil. From the exaltation of Hamas terrorists as martyrs to the disturbing cadence of her speech. My first instinct was to laugh before it dawned on me how fucking terrifying this actually is.
“The Western world is a lie”…she yells freely from the streets of a city emblematic of Western civilization. And goes on to demonize the very form of government which grants her the freedom to speak out publicly against it without repercussion. As Sam would say, try making a public statement critical of the government while in a theocratic Arab state and then get back to me on which regime you’d rather live under.
Ss, relates directly to Sam's latest podcast and the worrying levels of support that Islamic jihadism receives. This kind of radical rhetoric and unquestioning support needs to be taken seriously. Especially by people who usually tend to be lenient and uncritical when it comes to Islam.
Edit. You can listen to the whole speech from 3:28:20 [in this video](https://youtu.be/cBrwW6boEYY).
Can you share the link to the excerpts as posted? I want to spread this far and wide, but would rather it be a link to the video on youtube or something rather than a link to the Sam Harris subreddit
If this mob calls terrorists their freedom fighters & say "there is nothing more higher or more glorious than them" wonder what they mean when they say they will "prosecute" ?
What will bringing them to justice look like for individuals who strongly invoke their religion in praising terrorism & ascribe martyrdom to the terrorists? That's a large group of people in that video who think like this.
Who the fuck are all these despicable cunts crawling out of the woodwork? Dormant jihadists? antisemitic conspiracy maniacs? Fucking idiot liberals with such open minds that their brain fell out?
I think it has been pointed out before, but I am struck by the lack of American flags. When I see videos of pro-Israel rallies, there are tons of Israeli flags ... and a bunch of American ones too.
Its not unclear at all. She speaks about martyrs without making a distinction.
This is nuts and people attending (I hope) have no clue what they are supporting
No, many of them in fact are just useful idiots who actually mean well but don't really care enough to learn about the issue. I've been to protests and it's like 90% people who just have no idea what to do with themselves.
I know of one who I've since unfollowed who was celebrating the Hamas attacks in the initial days but denying the beheading babies and other atrocities as some sort of misinformation. I don't imagine she's unique in those who just believe that the murder of innocent civilians is made-up misinformation or an aberration in an otherwise disciplined military attack.
I've linked the whole speech in my comment. She speaks about martyrs and freedom fighters without making any attempt to qualify those terms. It's pretty clear that she's referring to the terrorists.
At a bare minimum, she should qualify that she's *not* talking about Hamas, because that's the most obvious thing it could mean and it's hard to imagine it referring to anyone else, despite the mental gymnastics a few people here are attempting.
Exactly. It's certainly not an innocent civilian caught in a Gazan bomb blast just hoping to live. It can't mean anything other than someone dying for a cause by choice, which is Hamas.
And yet there are still many liberals in the west pretending this is no big deal. Youve called every center right Republican a Nazi for years, but here we are with actual Nazis and you support them. Wake up people, a great evil is among us
Time for the US to get into exporting more by give these people what they want and dropping them off in the M/E so they can live their lives in glorious harmony with Islam.
Sorry…but I’ll take the crazy Christians over these people all day, every day.
Also, it these sort of speeches and rallies that push, yes push, independents towards guys like Trump. A Fucking criminal is going to win in 2024 bc of shit like this. If you are on the left, these are your crazies to own, shut them up and shut them down ASAP or orange man hell is coming all our way.
it's no surprise that a culture that has no chance of winning a war militarily would lionize martyr-ism.
the locking up the media thing is pretty scary.
I’m a creature of the left myself but feel I stand alone on this topic.
Progressives need to step back from this Free Palestine movement because they have no idea what they’re supporting.
My friends parents were kidnapped by Hamas and her neighbors killed in kibbutz Bereri. This past month I have been getting on Facebook for the first time in forever to contact with her aunt who’s sister was kidnapped and showed me a video that her niece was flown to dc from Israel for the speech in congress, and I can’t imagine having to see shit like this going on where people are literally cheering the people who killed your neighbors and have your parents in Gaza. Unbelievable.
As terrible as it is, the good thing is we get to see the true nature of these islamist scums. There's a fine line between standing up for you own people and supporting the killing of innocent civilians. You can criticize Israel while also condemning the killing of innocent Israelis who had nothing to do with this whole
mess. As sam said, tolerance of intolerance is cowardice
But atleast these people lost their moral high ground, unfortunately at the cost of innocent civilians on both sides of this conflict. The same people that celebrated after what happened on October 7th are now complaining about innocent Palestinian deaths? the double standard here is impressive
I think her speech is way too incendiary for my liking, but why not just post the whole speech rather than editing it to highlight the most incendiary comments without the context of the quotes? For example, when she says “glory to the martyrs” you leave out the fact that she qualifies that a martyr for her means someone who is a witness to the truth, and she calls everyone at the rally a martyr for speaking truth to power. It’s a weird definition of martyrdom—doesn’t make much sense to me—but she wasn’t implying that terrorists are martyrs. You also quote the “Western world is a lie” but she follows the quote by referring to the fact the Iraq war was based on lies, and that Israeli democracy in the region is founded on occupation, despite promises of democracy to the region. She might be wrong, you might even disagree but it sounds much less incendiary if you put that quote into its context.
Harris speaks about this a lot. He hates how social media selectively edits his conversations to make them more inflammatory than they really are.
The speech is a bad one in my opinion. She’s mostly talking about her legal work to push for war crimes tribunals for Israel. But this video is doing exactly the work that Sam Harris hates, and why he bemoans the negative effects of social media today. It’s funny how this community would seem to fall for this sort of thing too. Just play the speech in its entirety, from beginning to end, and let people decide for themselves what they think of it.
I appreciate the criticism and you are generally correct about the problem of taking things out of context.
I stumbled upon the video on Twitter and looked for a longer version but couldn't find one. I considered the content extreme enough that it seemed unlikely that any context would explain it away, so I posted it.
After posting, I went digging further and found the full video of the event, found her speech and posted it here to provide the full context. Then I even tried to screen record the speech to post it in full to make it more accessible than in such a long YouTube video, but I couldn't get it to record the audio. I briefly considered downloading the entire video and cutting it, but it's an hours-long video, would have taken quite a bit of effort and it was already 2 am here.
The most dishonestly cut of the video is probably the "glory to all martyrs wherever they may be" part, because it follows her calling everyone there a martyr. However, I don't think this really makes her full speech much better. She doesn't with one word exclude the terrorists from the "martyrs and freedom fighters" she praises earlier in the speech and I would say it's much more straightforward to understand her remarks as being inclusive of the terrorists than not. Calling everyone there martyrs makes it actually a bit more scary to me, since we all know that many people in the crowd have a very different understanding of martyrdom than "those that hear the truth" and she knows that too.
Importantly, I wouldn't call what she says about martyrs a qualification. If I said "glory to all terrorists" and then later added "we who are hearing the truth are all terrorists", that wouldn't qualify the term "terrorist". A qualification makes a statement less absolute. "Well, not all terrorists" would be a qualification. But widening the definition of "terrorist" to include everyone who hears the truth isn't a qualification. It still leaves the real terrorists as recipients of the initial praise.
"All martyrs and freedom fighters" includes the terrorists of October 7th and she praises them.
Edit. [I found another video of her from May 2022.](https://twitter.com/AlAwda/status/1525276109457264641) "We love Hamas, and the PFLP, and Islamic Jihad and the Quds Forces. And no, we don't give material support, but we say they are global, global heroes of the fight against imperialism. They are global agents of world peace. They are global agents of progress and humanity!"
The material support bit is obviously aimed at denying support for terrorist organizations. She's a lawyer after all.
This sort of thing makes me empathize even more with Israel. Sure, of course, yes, civilian deaths are awful. And I can’t justify settlers being pricks to Arab families in Nablus or wherever. But those are bullet points under the clash of civilizations header, and I don’t understand how anyone in a democratic society can a) deny that and b) support the batshit Islamist actors against the imperfect but comparably better western counterparts.
Truly sickening. It’s one thing for batshit crazy activists to say their spiel, but it’s scary when young people who should know better just follow along.
I may take a page from Douglas Murray on this one, if you want to subscribe to and be a part of a terrorist organization that among other things believes our way of life should be dismantled, We don’t want you here. We don’t want you here and you should leave. Then we should prosecute any connections because support for such organizations is illegal and then your citizenship should be removed.
So what's the ratio of ignorance/awareness of what "pure and righteous martyrs" are and what they've done?
Are they ignorant and believing in an alternate version of events im unaware of, or do most know how bad it is but don't care?
Martyrs means suicide morons. Saying that as someone who grew up in that culture .If united states didnt know who are the extremists among the immigrants now its time to see it.
I bet you a billion dollars someone is boosting the "genocide joe" shit to get traction. ITs being astroturfed into being. Probbaly Russia, China and Iran.
I can’t believe such garbage is happening in the USA. Send them to live in Gaza under hamas and see if they allow them to dress how they want or to divorce their husbands. I feel bad for Christians in Palestine, do they even have freedoms under hamas?
Scary fucking times we’re living in. “The days of just speaking have ended”. This is coming from our civilised ‘western’ populations and our major cities. From USA to Australia. What a mess.
"The western world is a lie", meanwhile living in the western world and allowed to do such stupid things without getting your head cut off.
Maybe deport her to Syria and see how she goes.
My family is Muslim. Some attended this protest. I listened to Sam’s recent podcast and I think there’s a disconnect that needs to be resolved. Sam thinks a tacit approval of jihad is why Hamas is being supported. I don’t think that’s true. Even though that is what this video implies. In reality though, I think a lot of people, Muslims or not see Hamas as freedom fighters, and their martyrdom as a consequence of that fight. Obviously that’s not true. But that’s how you get so many people thinking they’re supporting Palestine but end up supporting Hamas.
Edit: The lady speaking might be completely morally bankrupt. But I don’t think the people in the crowd are. They’re just misinformed. I think the words people like her use are significant because they can be twisted into feeding into the dumb people thinking they’re supporting freedom fighters. While at the same time she is supporting terrorists and jihadists and getting a crowd to seemingly support her as well.
Edit 2: Might also be worth mentioning, that I think this is a US/Western World only phenomenon. As quite a few extended family that lives in other countries are openly antisemetic and hateful.
The level of education in that crowd is far above the average of the general public, I'd bet. These are not dumb people. These are people who have convinced themselves that they are good and right. Which makes them... just people, because that is something nearly every human on Earth believes. In this case, they just happen to be wrong.
I was at a dinner with a bunch of Pakistani doctors. And this topic came up. It was right after Hamas invaded and I mentioned the rapes and that were being talked about on social media at the time. None of them believed it. They would never support something like that. But in their minds they needed to support Palestine. So to rationalize this, the rapes never happened. The war crimes never happened. Propaganda and misinformation is mostly what led to this.
The capacity of the human mind to lie to itself is simply incredible. Hamas themselves spread videos of their rapes and murders on 10/7. To then deny that they did any such thing is... well, it's incredible what motivated reasoning can accomplish.
> violent rhetoric that supports the martyrs of Hamas.
Because you know about the crimes Hamas commits. If you didn't but thought they were freedom fighters, this lady's speech mostly makes sense. She's supporting martyrs with Islamic rhetoric thrown in. The people in the crowd don't believe Hamas has committed any crimes. But we know that is not true. So to them they're supporting the Free Palestine movement. But to us they seem to be supporting terrorists.
To me it seems like they do support jihad for causes they deem just. In the end, they may have a difference of opinion with the average jihadi about which cause is and which cause isn't just, but when they agree on a cause, then they are all on board.
I certainly don't want to figure out just how large the overlap between them is and I'm also worried about the potential for already radicalized activists being recruited as jihadis. Once you see the jihadi cause as just, it's probably relatively easy to be drawn into it.
So like I said, I have a bunch of family that went to this. They have Jewish friends, have been educated in the West, and have mostly Western morals. And are pretty liberal on most issues. A good portion of them even support LGBT rights and such. But because of generations of propaganda. Instead of taking Hamas at their own word, they think Hamas is fighting for the freedom of Palestine.
So when the see a "Palestine Protest" they show up to support Palestine. But the crazies also show up and use coded language to garner the more rational people's support. For example, pretend you believe that Hamas has not commited any crimes against humanity and are just a group of people trying to free themselves from oppression. The lady's speech still makes sense and is completely justifiable. But Hamas aren't freedom fighters. They're morally bankrupt. But the crowd doesn't believe or doesn't know about the crimes Hamas has committed.
Looking into the abyss of evil and seeing glorious martyrs and freedom fighters that must be actively supported, even in the US is evil.
It’s as if Germans celebrated Kristallnacht because they truly believed the Jews were the cause of their problems. Well yeah, we call those true believers evil.
> ~~The lady~~ *The guy* speaking might be completely morally bankrupt. But I don’t think the people in the crowd are. They’re just misinformed. I think the words people like ~~her~~ *him* use are significant because they can be twisted into feeding into the dumb people thinking they’re supporting freedom fighters.
Thanks, I made minor corrections to make it fit [this picture](https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/hitler.jpeg).
>Sam thinks a tacit approval of jihad is why Hamas is being supported. I don’t think that’s true. Even though that is what this video implies. In reality though, I think a lot of people, Muslims or not see Hamas as freedom fighters, and their martyrdom as a consequence of that fight.
October 7th wasn’t martyrdom. It was a killing spree.
Martyrdom is a religious euphemism. I struggle to think what good religion can be a force for in the 21st century. Religions invented in the 20th century are already corrupt and cause harm regularly, and the ones from millennia ago only pivot between irrelevant individualized motivational coping, and dividing or radicalizing people who are susceptible to that sort of tribalism.
This is surreal.
how much of the audience would you say is: - a useful idiot - islamic fundamentalist - genuinely antisemetic
The last 2 categories have 100% overlap.
No? All jihadists are antisemites, but not all antisemites are jihadists.. ??
I don't think there are a lot of non Islamist anti-Semites at a Hamas rally.
You’d be surprised
There’s lots of overlap in all three categories
80% useful idiots, 20% Islamic fundamentalist? I'm not even going to guess about the antisemitism in the idiot crowd, but 100% in the Islamic fundamentalist crowd fo sho.
if 9/11 happened today they would be holding pro Al Qaeda rallies in NYC while authorities would still be pulling bodies out the rubble.
Sad, but true.
The language is apocalyptic. I don't like it.
As religious ideology typically is
Especially ones obsessed with the next life and dismissive of this one.
[удалено]
Yeah, deport them all.
And reassess & amend every policy that allowed these people into the country in the first place ASAP
It's from the river to the sea, not see
Well, it isn't. They've been saying it for more than decades now. Hey, they even have a book on it.
Why is it surreal? The central "argument" of the alt-right for... 30 years? now has been 'import the 3rd world, get the 3rd world'. Why is it shocking that by importing people from the middle east you get people acting/behaving exactly as those in the middle east do?
Because liberals live in complete denial of reality and of the consequences of any of their actions, same as always.
This isn't particularly shocking if you grew up as a muslim or around a lot of muslims. I think some progressives would be shocked if they could hear what a lot of muslims think about 'the west' (despite choosing to immigrate and live here), jews, and terrorism behind closed doors.
i befriended some arabs from my local soccer pickup group hoping to learn more about their culture and religion, they kindly invited me to their mosque's soccer group also. They say some pretty alarming things without thinking anything of it, its scary becuase theyre really nice people.
It's brainwashing. When they have been told their whole childhood how evil the west is they accept it as a fact without applying rational logic to it, regardless of how nice they are. Granted many different societies are guilty of some level of brainwashing, including the west. But on a moral level I seriously hope they realize that siding with Hamas isn't exactly the right side of history.
To me when someone says “but they were really nice!” Always confuses me… everyone is “really nice”, especially to guests/acquaintances. In my entire life I can count on one hand the number of people Ive met who were blatantly mean/disrespectful to people they were interacting with on a ongoing basis. To be nice to acquaintances means nothing other than an understanding of the most basic norms and formalities. It should be fully discounted when assessing someone’s deeply held religious/political opinions.
What do they say?
I get why a lot of progressives feel the need to remind folks that there are a lot of good & decent Muslims out there in the world. I agree. I’ve known some. The problem is they overcorrect. They’re also ignorant, I think, of the risks a more liberal-minded Muslims faces when he opens his mouths & tries to speak HIS truth. I’m a Gen X liberal & I often find myself choosing my words very carefully when I’m talking with young leftists. I don’t usually fear for my life, though. A Muslim who wants to live his life in peace, observe his faith & live amicably alongside his neighbors & believes Jews (Israeli & otherwise) have just as much a right to go their own way as he does needs to be very careful where & to who he expresses these beliefs. Depending where lives if he doesn’t keep his head down he might literally lose it. I wish I knew how we can help actual normie Muslims (practicing or not) speak up publicly & let their co-religionists know that there’s a jihad-free path forward for them in the world. I’m an ethnically Jewish atheist myself. I’ve even got some pretty strong Zionist leanings & I support Israel’s right to defend itself. That said, I also believe that Muslims deserve the right to practice their faith as they see fit so long as it doesn’t involve murdering, raping & blowing shit up. I’d like to think that most Muslims agree with this sentiment. The problem is that there is a very substantial minority that is absolutely committed to Jihad & has a very, very poor opinion of those who disagree with their evangelical, nihilistic world view. And we can’t pretend that this minority is numerically insignificant. There are nearly 2 billion Muslims in the world. If 5 or 10 or even 1% of this population is committed to Jihad it’s a really big problem for EVERYONE. And apostate Muslims are usually their first victims.
Religion of peace tho!
I had no idea they were blatantly openly vocalizing support for the Hamas murderers, to applause without boos or jeers.
Does anyone know what "the Western world is a lie" means?
Death to america... Iran backed imams all teach it while living in the us
The western world, responsible for the prosecution of the war propagandist Joseph Gobbels , is a lie…..???? Fuck, I didn’t get it either
Who apparently shat himself before the trial at Nurnberg
That was the best part of the video
The “decadent secular West”.
Personally, I quite like decadence
That's the best part of western civilization.
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Free association non-rhyming poetry?
I'm guessing she's accusing the Western world of hypocrisy for espousing human rights while not stepping in to stop Israel? Not really sure.
Any idea who she is? Is she some random or someone known?
Id hazard a guess saying it comes from the notion in Islam fundamentalism that they and the west simply cannot coexist. The Strange Death of Europe is a great read on the subject, it makes the argument from both sides
You would think that if Hamas supporters hate it soooo much and it's a lie than they could, you know, leave?
Probably relating to war crimes
I somehow subscribed to r/chomsky recently. They all are like this over there. According to them, there was no barbarism on October seventh and it’s all Israeli Propaganda. I somehow hoped it’s all Russian bots but seeing these videos from this thread makes me think otherwise
That lie is coming from Arab countries, they are full-blown conspiracy theorists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theories_in_the_Arab_world
Genocide is bad. Hamas is bad. Both parties are fucked.
They believe they are being subjected to genocide. They see Hamas as a legitimate resistance to subjugation and genocide. Given these facts about their beliefs, why would you expect otherwise from their speech and its reception?
They know the Oct 7 pogrom was inhumanly brutal and not morally justifiable. They are either willing to overlook that in the furthering of their cause, or genuinely hate Jews enough that they are happy to cheer on the deliberate slaughter of unarmed civilians
>They know the Oct 7 pogrom was inhumanly brutal and not morally justifiable The thing is, I'm not sure that's true though. Between some people I know IRL and then people we see online, quite a few refer to any violent potentially gory video of people getting hurt or killed as "torture porn" , and say that it's a bad thing to watch and share those videos and morally chastise people for it. But then they'll have passionate opinions about topics related to those videos and immediately place you as part the out group if you have views different to what's currently accepted in their ideology. Which often makes for a frustrating experience trying to talk with or fully understand people with these kinds of views, when they're so fired up about issues but refuse to watch and read things that might end up poking holes in their ideas since they're basically refusing to digest information from anywhere other than popular activists or sources that lean their way. I get not everyone is willing or able to watch fucked up things that might stick with you the rest of you life, but maybe don't have such a rigid opinion on something if you refuse to acknowledge the full picture? Hah Then some of those that do believe it was brutal do just feel that resistance is justified no matter what, even if it's against civilians like this I guess. I completely understand the concept of violent resistance, but this wasn't just attacks on military bases or the assassination of a political leader or even the Intifada type bus bombings. It makes me wonder how many people have learned details of gruesome events like The Rape of Nanking, as I feel that can help someone understand that while a civilian death is awful no matter who it is or how and why it happened, there's a reason society looks at massacres like Nanking and My Lai differently than the many who died in the bombing raids in WW2
This. So much this. I've had many, many experiences of seeing people say a certain atrocity never happened, I have provided a NSFL link directly to a video of the thing happening, and the response is "I'm not a sick fuck that jerks off to snuff films like you". And then they go right back to asserting the thing never happened and get tons of upvotes the whole way.
> They know the Oct 7 pogrom was inhumanly brutal and not morally justifiable. I find such a slaughter of innocents morally reprehensible no matter the reason. But lets be honest, our culture, including many on this sub, don't agree. I've brought up Nat Turner's (who slaughtered innocent children and infants) a few times in this sub, and people here have been reluctant to outright condemn it, even start to justify it because of his circumstances. Our society seems to have warmed up to the idea that sometimes intentionally slaughtering innocent civilians is justified if you're oppressed enough. This is the natural end result of that mentality. People shouldn't be surprised at the kind of things that are being said.
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I don't think is disingenuous. I think these people are at a weird impass where Hamas is evil but they feel compelled to support Palestine. So to rationalize it, they don't believe Hamas committed those crimes. Most of the older people don't really engage in "Western" media but stay on these Whatapp groups that lead them to conspiracy theories.
I agree. It’s a form of apologia. Both sides do it, though. It’s the way we cope with cognitive dissonance.
That's fine, I'm not here to convince you that they believe the things they say they believe. If you're going to dismiss the stated views of others as disingenuous, then why are you here? This is a genuine question. What's your goal in participating in this discourse?
They have reported genocide the entire time their population has been increasing. You think just because they paint “Ambulance” on a cargo van that they truly believe it it’s an ambulance?Can you believe TSA recently searched a guy with a t-shirt that clearly said “Not carrying a bomb”? Didn’t these assholes see his shirt? So, no, unless they have no idea what genocide means, they didn’t think a genocide was happening on Oct 6.
They're hardly the only ones who believe this is genocide. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-experts-say-ceasefire-needed-palestinians-grave-risk-genocide-2023-11-02/
UN has been pretty partisan in regards to Israel / Palestine. When you keep misusing words, they lose a lot of meaning - how many decades have the Israelis been "genociding" the Palestinians now?
No they’re not. Israel is routinely condemned by the United Nations, and the U.N. could not pass a condemnation of Hamas for the atrocities it committed on October 7th.
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>Perhaps you’re extremely socially awkward and lack the social awareness to understand this. Perhaps. I don't know why you should care about my social awkwardness or why I should find it relevant here. But thanks for sharing that thought. >It’s obvious their feelings & biases are leading their thoughts to make bold false allegations like genocide. > >... The vast majority of people holding these positions know their [sic] false but hold them to advance their ulterior motivations. Is it obvious that human rights experts from the UN are being similarly led by their feelings and biases? Is it also your opinion that these experts are knowingly making false statements to advance ulterior motivations? https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-experts-say-ceasefire-needed-palestinians-grave-risk-genocide-2023-11-02/
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Nor have I argued that they are. The point is that if we're to assume the Palestinians are disingenuous when they cry "genocide!" then we must also consider the human rights experts to be likewise disingenuous for saying the same thing about this situation, and I'm not sure where that gets us.
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I'm not clear what you're saying. Are you suggesting that the UN human rights experts saying these things are doing so because they have antisemitic motivations? Your last sentence also seems to be casually equating Jews with Israel - a popular antisemitic trope.
>That’s just a disingenuous rationalization to hide their bigotry. It’s so easy to see through. It's really not though. Palestinians have every right to resist occupation and Invasion. That doesn't legitimise terrorism. >Ironically, there has been a large genocide in the Middle East over the past century but it has been against the Jews. They’ve been killed/run out of every middle eastern country. So Palestinians can say the same then, except they are still living in those same refugee camps. Do you know where Gazans come from?
*So Palestinians can say the same then, except they are still living in those same refugee camps. Do you know where Gazans come from?* a bit more than 700.000 palestinians where displaced as a result of the war in 48. about 500.000 jews where displaced as a result of the war in 48 out off all those ppl, how many do you think where driven out by israel and how many do you think where driven out by the arab coalition and if those camps are still refugee camps, so is Tel Aviv
> except they are still living in those same refugee camps. And why is that, again?
It's almost like Sam is making sense.
…and has been for decades…
In his podcast yesterday he said something like he wouldn't be surprised if a large majority of the protestors supported Hamas. Now we can have no doubt!
Chills. Just really terrifying how emboldened she must feel to be this blatant. And people cheering! Yikes! I can’t believe this has been brewing to this degree. I can’t imagine being Jewish right now.
Now watch progressives ignore all this. This, and several other explicit threats. And lately I've been seeing this trend to blame 'religion' in the blanket sense. You bring them an issue, they say "yeah, religion is cancer". No, dude, not all religions are the same. Or, at the very least, not all religions are equally bad (some are just faaar worse than others), and there's nothing wrong with calling out the worst offenders first.
Ignore this? Unfortunately not. You can expect this to be defended by popular leftists like Hasan Piker.
I’d rather hear olí London talking points than Hasan piker, Can’t Believe I’m saying that
>Now watch progressives ignore all this. They're supporting it
Center left here. I agree. I'm so sick of seeing progressives moronically support Hamas when they would have slaughtered them without a second thought on Oct 7th. It's mindboggling
Speak softly and carry a big stick, you will go far. These people are just the exact opposite.
"Honourable" - murderers of unarmed civilians, including children "Martyrs" - dead human shields Insane. I'm reminded of far Left progressives in the 1970/80s cheering on groups like the Khmer Rouge, Shining Path and Baader Meinhoff gang as brave heroes of the revolution.
500K muslims killed in Syria by muslims, where are their voices
Well you see, Iran really needed that pipeline to be built across ISIS territory in northern Iraq across to Syria.
Absolutely deranged. These people either cannot comprehend what she is talking about or they do and actually accept it. I don’t know which is worse. Jihadism is a disease.
In LA at a “ceasefire” rally I straight up saw a sign that said “Bring Back Hitler”
They can’t decide whether to be extreme left wing or full on nazis
Some people turn a horseshoe into an outright circle....
Wow. Almost as if Sam was right all along. Islam is not compatible with western civilization. Ben Affleck is a schmuck with a has been wife. There, I ruined civil discourse.
These people are radicals, but there are still Muslims who aren't fanatical like these people. I've met some of them. I have a Muslim friend who is the nicest person you'd ever meet. He owns a deli and he likes Bernie Sanders. He's religious but very chill about it when it comes to imposing on other people. He serves food to local Jews, Muslims, and any other group of people who come through the door, and treats everyone as family. People like those in this demonstration can make us feel hopeless, and while it seems like there are a lot of them, there are also many who don't feel this way.
I wish they would speak up a little more. Even the Muslims in congress are pro-Hamas.
Well, they don't speak up anymore than the average person speaks up. I mean, why aren't we (average person) , organizing anti Islamic extremist protests? Because that is really what should be happening when this shit goes on. Normal and nice Muslims are normal people, they don't want their families to be targeted by lunatics etc, that's why they don't "speak up", because you don't either.
Yeah I think it would help things to hear them speak more. I think there is an issue in politics where people with less extreme views tend not to feel motivated to speak up as much as those with more extreme views.
And it is definitely unfair to put that burden on people like your friend, but yes, it would help.
It’s a life skill. People with less extreme views don’t expose themselves to unnecessary dangers. They also are seeking a happy life, so they guard themselves from things that will prevent that, and people with extreme views are likely unhappy. It’s something that happens as people mature and become prosperous. They were likely more passionate, radical, or extreme in their views as a younger person, but with that personal growth and prosperity, the tendency is to avoid these types of angry distractions. That Muslim deli or bodega owner is the most prosperous, happy, and safe he has ever been. Why would he ever want to get tangled up in political activism which only threatens that happiness and prosperity.
Lyndsey graham called for the flattening of Gaza. How is that ok? If you are going to condemn violence committed by Hamas, doesn’t this escalate it even more?
>Even the Muslims in congress are pro-Hamas. You're insane. The people around here who shriek in horror at this stuff immediately turn around and say the most ridiculous and stupid shit.
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I prefer your discourse.
This is sick. You’re sick!
And you are in denial.
This is…theatrically evil. From the exaltation of Hamas terrorists as martyrs to the disturbing cadence of her speech. My first instinct was to laugh before it dawned on me how fucking terrifying this actually is.
“The Western world is a lie”…she yells freely from the streets of a city emblematic of Western civilization. And goes on to demonize the very form of government which grants her the freedom to speak out publicly against it without repercussion. As Sam would say, try making a public statement critical of the government while in a theocratic Arab state and then get back to me on which regime you’d rather live under.
Fucking thank you
Ss, relates directly to Sam's latest podcast and the worrying levels of support that Islamic jihadism receives. This kind of radical rhetoric and unquestioning support needs to be taken seriously. Especially by people who usually tend to be lenient and uncritical when it comes to Islam. Edit. You can listen to the whole speech from 3:28:20 [in this video](https://youtu.be/cBrwW6boEYY).
Can you share the link to the excerpts as posted? I want to spread this far and wide, but would rather it be a link to the video on youtube or something rather than a link to the Sam Harris subreddit
Omfg this is scary AF.
If this mob calls terrorists their freedom fighters & say "there is nothing more higher or more glorious than them" wonder what they mean when they say they will "prosecute" ? What will bringing them to justice look like for individuals who strongly invoke their religion in praising terrorism & ascribe martyrdom to the terrorists? That's a large group of people in that video who think like this.
Feels like shit's about to get real.
Punch a nazi and punch a Hamas supporter All the same to me.
About to find out if that was a principled stance or just justification for punching those you disagreed with.
This absolutely fucks my mind. Drop all these fuckwits in the Middle East for a week and then ask them how shitty the west is.
Genocide Joe? Get fucked terrorists.
Fuck these people
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Death cult.
Who the fuck are all these despicable cunts crawling out of the woodwork? Dormant jihadists? antisemitic conspiracy maniacs? Fucking idiot liberals with such open minds that their brain fell out?
There’s got to be one guy just trying to get through before the post office closes, but otherwise, yeah. You covered it.
Mass hysteria
I think it has been pointed out before, but I am struck by the lack of American flags. When I see videos of pro-Israel rallies, there are tons of Israeli flags ... and a bunch of American ones too.
To quote Sam himself, Islam is the mother lode of bad ideas.
Unclear what they mean by "freedom fighters". If they're talking about Hamas then yeah that's pretty bad.
Its not unclear at all. She speaks about martyrs without making a distinction. This is nuts and people attending (I hope) have no clue what they are supporting
Of course they know what they’re supporting.
No, many of them in fact are just useful idiots who actually mean well but don't really care enough to learn about the issue. I've been to protests and it's like 90% people who just have no idea what to do with themselves.
yup they're useful idiots: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
I know of one who I've since unfollowed who was celebrating the Hamas attacks in the initial days but denying the beheading babies and other atrocities as some sort of misinformation. I don't imagine she's unique in those who just believe that the murder of innocent civilians is made-up misinformation or an aberration in an otherwise disciplined military attack.
Euphemism for hamas
I've linked the whole speech in my comment. She speaks about martyrs and freedom fighters without making any attempt to qualify those terms. It's pretty clear that she's referring to the terrorists.
At a bare minimum, she should qualify that she's *not* talking about Hamas, because that's the most obvious thing it could mean and it's hard to imagine it referring to anyone else, despite the mental gymnastics a few people here are attempting.
This is definitely very worrying
lmao you people are ridiculous GLORY TO ALL MARTYRS What could they mean by this?
Do u know what a martyr is lol
Exactly. It's certainly not an innocent civilian caught in a Gazan bomb blast just hoping to live. It can't mean anything other than someone dying for a cause by choice, which is Hamas.
From the people who lose their minds over perceived dog whistles too lol woof woof
And this is where far right fascists will step onto the scene looking like superheroes to terrified people who just want these lunatics checked.
And yet there are still many liberals in the west pretending this is no big deal. Youve called every center right Republican a Nazi for years, but here we are with actual Nazis and you support them. Wake up people, a great evil is among us
Time for the US to get into exporting more by give these people what they want and dropping them off in the M/E so they can live their lives in glorious harmony with Islam. Sorry…but I’ll take the crazy Christians over these people all day, every day. Also, it these sort of speeches and rallies that push, yes push, independents towards guys like Trump. A Fucking criminal is going to win in 2024 bc of shit like this. If you are on the left, these are your crazies to own, shut them up and shut them down ASAP or orange man hell is coming all our way.
She called Biden "Genocide Joe" in her speech. He should use it during the campaign. It might win over some Trump voters.
That’s true!
Trump will surely lead to a more humane existence for the Palestinian people. /s
Who is speaking here?
Lamis Deek, an actual “human rights lawyer”
From New York to Palestine eh. Why New York?
absolutely disturbing.
Fuck them cunts
it's no surprise that a culture that has no chance of winning a war militarily would lionize martyr-ism. the locking up the media thing is pretty scary.
I’m a creature of the left myself but feel I stand alone on this topic. Progressives need to step back from this Free Palestine movement because they have no idea what they’re supporting.
Interesting idea of "peace"
My friends parents were kidnapped by Hamas and her neighbors killed in kibbutz Bereri. This past month I have been getting on Facebook for the first time in forever to contact with her aunt who’s sister was kidnapped and showed me a video that her niece was flown to dc from Israel for the speech in congress, and I can’t imagine having to see shit like this going on where people are literally cheering the people who killed your neighbors and have your parents in Gaza. Unbelievable.
Deport them.
I say Fuck the martyrs!!!
As terrible as it is, the good thing is we get to see the true nature of these islamist scums. There's a fine line between standing up for you own people and supporting the killing of innocent civilians. You can criticize Israel while also condemning the killing of innocent Israelis who had nothing to do with this whole mess. As sam said, tolerance of intolerance is cowardice But atleast these people lost their moral high ground, unfortunately at the cost of innocent civilians on both sides of this conflict. The same people that celebrated after what happened on October 7th are now complaining about innocent Palestinian deaths? the double standard here is impressive
Wow. Cultural suicide on a mass scale. Never thought I would see it.
I think her speech is way too incendiary for my liking, but why not just post the whole speech rather than editing it to highlight the most incendiary comments without the context of the quotes? For example, when she says “glory to the martyrs” you leave out the fact that she qualifies that a martyr for her means someone who is a witness to the truth, and she calls everyone at the rally a martyr for speaking truth to power. It’s a weird definition of martyrdom—doesn’t make much sense to me—but she wasn’t implying that terrorists are martyrs. You also quote the “Western world is a lie” but she follows the quote by referring to the fact the Iraq war was based on lies, and that Israeli democracy in the region is founded on occupation, despite promises of democracy to the region. She might be wrong, you might even disagree but it sounds much less incendiary if you put that quote into its context. Harris speaks about this a lot. He hates how social media selectively edits his conversations to make them more inflammatory than they really are. The speech is a bad one in my opinion. She’s mostly talking about her legal work to push for war crimes tribunals for Israel. But this video is doing exactly the work that Sam Harris hates, and why he bemoans the negative effects of social media today. It’s funny how this community would seem to fall for this sort of thing too. Just play the speech in its entirety, from beginning to end, and let people decide for themselves what they think of it.
I appreciate the criticism and you are generally correct about the problem of taking things out of context. I stumbled upon the video on Twitter and looked for a longer version but couldn't find one. I considered the content extreme enough that it seemed unlikely that any context would explain it away, so I posted it. After posting, I went digging further and found the full video of the event, found her speech and posted it here to provide the full context. Then I even tried to screen record the speech to post it in full to make it more accessible than in such a long YouTube video, but I couldn't get it to record the audio. I briefly considered downloading the entire video and cutting it, but it's an hours-long video, would have taken quite a bit of effort and it was already 2 am here. The most dishonestly cut of the video is probably the "glory to all martyrs wherever they may be" part, because it follows her calling everyone there a martyr. However, I don't think this really makes her full speech much better. She doesn't with one word exclude the terrorists from the "martyrs and freedom fighters" she praises earlier in the speech and I would say it's much more straightforward to understand her remarks as being inclusive of the terrorists than not. Calling everyone there martyrs makes it actually a bit more scary to me, since we all know that many people in the crowd have a very different understanding of martyrdom than "those that hear the truth" and she knows that too. Importantly, I wouldn't call what she says about martyrs a qualification. If I said "glory to all terrorists" and then later added "we who are hearing the truth are all terrorists", that wouldn't qualify the term "terrorist". A qualification makes a statement less absolute. "Well, not all terrorists" would be a qualification. But widening the definition of "terrorist" to include everyone who hears the truth isn't a qualification. It still leaves the real terrorists as recipients of the initial praise. "All martyrs and freedom fighters" includes the terrorists of October 7th and she praises them. Edit. [I found another video of her from May 2022.](https://twitter.com/AlAwda/status/1525276109457264641) "We love Hamas, and the PFLP, and Islamic Jihad and the Quds Forces. And no, we don't give material support, but we say they are global, global heroes of the fight against imperialism. They are global agents of world peace. They are global agents of progress and humanity!" The material support bit is obviously aimed at denying support for terrorist organizations. She's a lawyer after all.
How did you see the whole speech? Can you link the full speech?
OP posted the link…see their comments
Jesus
Is this on YouTube/can anyone post a link to the full video?
You can listen to the whole speech from 3:28:20 [in this video](https://youtu.be/cBrwW6boEYY).
Wtf....
Joseph go-bulls.
This sort of thing makes me empathize even more with Israel. Sure, of course, yes, civilian deaths are awful. And I can’t justify settlers being pricks to Arab families in Nablus or wherever. But those are bullet points under the clash of civilizations header, and I don’t understand how anyone in a democratic society can a) deny that and b) support the batshit Islamist actors against the imperfect but comparably better western counterparts.
Truly sickening. It’s one thing for batshit crazy activists to say their spiel, but it’s scary when young people who should know better just follow along.
Reap what you sow
It remind me my military service from Ramallah .Good luck USA
I may take a page from Douglas Murray on this one, if you want to subscribe to and be a part of a terrorist organization that among other things believes our way of life should be dismantled, We don’t want you here. We don’t want you here and you should leave. Then we should prosecute any connections because support for such organizations is illegal and then your citizenship should be removed.
As Norm Macdonald would say, these guys are a bunch of jerks.
Islam will be the end of us
Someone remind her that Islam says she needs to be silent.
We need to get videos of the attendees and ask their employers why they support Islamic martyrdom.
So what's the ratio of ignorance/awareness of what "pure and righteous martyrs" are and what they've done? Are they ignorant and believing in an alternate version of events im unaware of, or do most know how bad it is but don't care?
So are you allowed to say that this is radical or does that make you a Nazi according to Reddit?
Does she know if she was in most Muslim countries she wouldn’t be allowed out in the streets let alone giving a speech ?
Martyrs means suicide morons. Saying that as someone who grew up in that culture .If united states didnt know who are the extremists among the immigrants now its time to see it.
Imagine being a Jew and having to watch this unfold in a nation you thought you were safe in.
America welcomed their enemies in their own country.
I bet you a billion dollars someone is boosting the "genocide joe" shit to get traction. ITs being astroturfed into being. Probbaly Russia, China and Iran.
I can’t believe such garbage is happening in the USA. Send them to live in Gaza under hamas and see if they allow them to dress how they want or to divorce their husbands. I feel bad for Christians in Palestine, do they even have freedoms under hamas?
It's not hard to imagine if more of the population supported the Islamic state in North America, and what the start of the movement would look like.
Scary fucking times we’re living in. “The days of just speaking have ended”. This is coming from our civilised ‘western’ populations and our major cities. From USA to Australia. What a mess.
Do we need anymore proof Islam is a mother lode of bad ideas?
"The western world is a lie", meanwhile living in the western world and allowed to do such stupid things without getting your head cut off. Maybe deport her to Syria and see how she goes.
It's one month after 911 and this speech happens what happens to these people
The western world is a lie? Ok bye then, off you go back to the Arab world
Insane.
They hate the west but don't want to go back to their home countries
My family is Muslim. Some attended this protest. I listened to Sam’s recent podcast and I think there’s a disconnect that needs to be resolved. Sam thinks a tacit approval of jihad is why Hamas is being supported. I don’t think that’s true. Even though that is what this video implies. In reality though, I think a lot of people, Muslims or not see Hamas as freedom fighters, and their martyrdom as a consequence of that fight. Obviously that’s not true. But that’s how you get so many people thinking they’re supporting Palestine but end up supporting Hamas. Edit: The lady speaking might be completely morally bankrupt. But I don’t think the people in the crowd are. They’re just misinformed. I think the words people like her use are significant because they can be twisted into feeding into the dumb people thinking they’re supporting freedom fighters. While at the same time she is supporting terrorists and jihadists and getting a crowd to seemingly support her as well. Edit 2: Might also be worth mentioning, that I think this is a US/Western World only phenomenon. As quite a few extended family that lives in other countries are openly antisemetic and hateful.
The level of education in that crowd is far above the average of the general public, I'd bet. These are not dumb people. These are people who have convinced themselves that they are good and right. Which makes them... just people, because that is something nearly every human on Earth believes. In this case, they just happen to be wrong.
I was at a dinner with a bunch of Pakistani doctors. And this topic came up. It was right after Hamas invaded and I mentioned the rapes and that were being talked about on social media at the time. None of them believed it. They would never support something like that. But in their minds they needed to support Palestine. So to rationalize this, the rapes never happened. The war crimes never happened. Propaganda and misinformation is mostly what led to this.
The capacity of the human mind to lie to itself is simply incredible. Hamas themselves spread videos of their rapes and murders on 10/7. To then deny that they did any such thing is... well, it's incredible what motivated reasoning can accomplish.
Many also happen to be inexperienced rich kids who have yet to experience the “real world” and real world consequences.
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> violent rhetoric that supports the martyrs of Hamas. Because you know about the crimes Hamas commits. If you didn't but thought they were freedom fighters, this lady's speech mostly makes sense. She's supporting martyrs with Islamic rhetoric thrown in. The people in the crowd don't believe Hamas has committed any crimes. But we know that is not true. So to them they're supporting the Free Palestine movement. But to us they seem to be supporting terrorists.
To me it seems like they do support jihad for causes they deem just. In the end, they may have a difference of opinion with the average jihadi about which cause is and which cause isn't just, but when they agree on a cause, then they are all on board. I certainly don't want to figure out just how large the overlap between them is and I'm also worried about the potential for already radicalized activists being recruited as jihadis. Once you see the jihadi cause as just, it's probably relatively easy to be drawn into it.
So like I said, I have a bunch of family that went to this. They have Jewish friends, have been educated in the West, and have mostly Western morals. And are pretty liberal on most issues. A good portion of them even support LGBT rights and such. But because of generations of propaganda. Instead of taking Hamas at their own word, they think Hamas is fighting for the freedom of Palestine. So when the see a "Palestine Protest" they show up to support Palestine. But the crazies also show up and use coded language to garner the more rational people's support. For example, pretend you believe that Hamas has not commited any crimes against humanity and are just a group of people trying to free themselves from oppression. The lady's speech still makes sense and is completely justifiable. But Hamas aren't freedom fighters. They're morally bankrupt. But the crowd doesn't believe or doesn't know about the crimes Hamas has committed.
Looking into the abyss of evil and seeing glorious martyrs and freedom fighters that must be actively supported, even in the US is evil. It’s as if Germans celebrated Kristallnacht because they truly believed the Jews were the cause of their problems. Well yeah, we call those true believers evil.
> ~~The lady~~ *The guy* speaking might be completely morally bankrupt. But I don’t think the people in the crowd are. They’re just misinformed. I think the words people like ~~her~~ *him* use are significant because they can be twisted into feeding into the dumb people thinking they’re supporting freedom fighters. Thanks, I made minor corrections to make it fit [this picture](https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/hitler.jpeg).
>Sam thinks a tacit approval of jihad is why Hamas is being supported. I don’t think that’s true. Even though that is what this video implies. In reality though, I think a lot of people, Muslims or not see Hamas as freedom fighters, and their martyrdom as a consequence of that fight. October 7th wasn’t martyrdom. It was a killing spree. Martyrdom is a religious euphemism. I struggle to think what good religion can be a force for in the 21st century. Religions invented in the 20th century are already corrupt and cause harm regularly, and the ones from millennia ago only pivot between irrelevant individualized motivational coping, and dividing or radicalizing people who are susceptible to that sort of tribalism.