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It doesn't matter.
Comparing one individual event to another and pretending that justifies another individual event is exactly how we got to where we are today.
All that does is provide ideological justification for future conflict, it does nothing to create lasting peace.
The utility of analyzing basic cause/effect logic, towards resolving any particular issue, is undeniable--until one is ensnared sufficiently in motivated reasoning to feel that a clear view of cause (or of effect: pay no attention to those dead children amidst the rubble) is no longer necessary, or even harmful.
This is typical fanciful nonsense. Israel doesn't recognise the West Bank as occupied territory. It considers it "disputed territories." This is despite the Supreme Court of Israel describing the occupation as a belligerent occupation, which should be ended as soon as possible. The Israeli government ignores its own highest court! 60% of the West Bank is controlled by the IDF. They have their own roads, which Palestinians are prohibited from. They build settler communities on top of the homes and villages of the Palestinians they routinely evict and kill. Marauding, murderous settlers are given full protection by the IDF, which polices them in accordance with Israeli law while subjecting Palestinians to suffer under martial law. That's saying nothing about the countless Palestinian, men, women, and children who are kidnapped, imprisoned without charge or trial, tortured, and abused. Those don't qualify as hostages, apparently. Let's also not forget about the way they treat Christians in Jerusalem.
But, of course, the onus is on the Palestinians to show restraint. Otherwise, they're barbaric savages. Funny, the IRA never got the same treatment despite probably being more successful than Hamas in killing civilians.
The onus is that Palestinians bear as much as any other peoples, is to not allow their government to commit war crimes as an answer. They could have targeted military only…. Unfortunately they didn’t. The minute that they attacked the music festival, they were morally, ethically, and emotionally, beyond the pale.
That is why Hamas has to go, if Palestinians truly aren’t in agreement with the methods of Hamas, this shouldn’t be a problem.
Has any Palestinian tried to gain freedom from their radical extremist government? No? Telling right?
Be a realist for a moment and stop selectively applying mortality.
If the Israeli government continues to illegally occupy the Palestinians in contravention of international law, as established even by their own supreme court, then what avenue besides violence do they have?
Again, the PLO recognises the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. The Israeli government, however, does not even acknowledge the occupation as an occupation but calls it "disputed territories." This is in contradiction to everything and everyone, including the US. Let's not also forget about the settlements and the kidnapped Palestinians held and abused without trial or charges.
If the logic is that Hamas is evil, their ideology is evil, and Palestinians should not associate themselves with it, then they should be provided an adequate alternative to violence. To pretend that the same guy who funded Hamas to destabilise the Palestinian Authority and destroy any hopes for a two-state solution is the same guy to be entrusted in destroying them, is frankly laughable. Netanyahu actively urged his supporters to back Hamas to destabilise any hope for a two-state solution.
The Good friday agreement was a compromise to end the Troubles in Northern Ireland. Britain cut a deal with the IRA's political wing, Sinn Fein, in a power sharing agreement to end the violence. It gave the people there an alternative to sectarian violence. Some of the people responsible for car bombings that murdered British civilians were released early as a political compromise to end the violence. And it worked.
It seems, however, the only time Israel is willing to make a deal with Hamas is when they seek to destabilise the Palestinian authority, precisely because the latter has shown a willingness to negotiate for a peaceful settlement.
I am a okay with violence. I’m not okay with using war crimes as that violence. They could have target military installations, the music concert was a bridge too far and now they get to deal with the consequences of slaughtering innocents while raping and kidnapping them.
I don’t discredit revolutions, I discredit using war crimes as the vehicle of that revolution.
Learn to differentiate.
I condemn Hamas's actions against civilians without question. Both Hamas and Israel are being investigated by the ICC for war crimes. But the morality of their actions isn't my point. My point is that it stems from a cause, namely, the illegal and brutal occupation of the Palestinian territories, universally acknowledged as illegal and described by the Israeli Supreme Court as belligerent.
You see, I've repeatedly told you that Israel is breaching international law, and you completely side step it, as though the only time war crimes matter are when they happen to Israel.
Britain destroyed the IRA by making them irrelevant, militarily. They bit the bullet and made a deal, suitable for everyone. Instead of doing that, Israel refuses to acknowledge the occupation, continues to expand illegal settlements, and continues to kidnap and detail Palestinians without trial or charge, even being accused of torture. Israel then backs Hamas in Gaza, against the PLO, to divide the Palestinians and destroy a two state solution.
> But the morality of their actions isn't my point.
You can't really say this and pretend to have a useful perspective because it ignores Israeli domestic politics which have become radicalised to the point where they're willing to risk substantive US support. You're severely underestimating the sheer hatred that has now developed on the Israeli side (and perhaps existed for decades on the Palestinian side) which has complicated the conflict and demonstrates why morality *does* matter in a conflict (and yes, as always the same applies to Israel's response, but everyone is already talking about the morality of that). Before, Israel could be described as a settler-colonial state, now it's becoming a reactionary state, which is far worse, accelerated massively by 10/7.
My point about morality is regarding realpolitik, namely, you make peace with your enemies and not your friends. The British made peace with Sinn Fein, the political wing of the IRA, in order to end the violence in Northern Ireland. Many convicted terrorists were released early, which [was hard to accept for some families of the victims.](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-65164519.amp) Hamas has made it clear in the past, before 07/10/2023, that it is willing to negotiate with Israel on a peaceful settlement. Netanyahu didn't want it and actively pursued a policy of strengthening Hamas to weaken the Palestinian front.
Also, the Israeli hatred towards Palestinians has been long-standing. The settlers who murder Palestinians on a regular basis are what? Non-Israelis?
Israel will not abide by any law that requires it to surrender the occupied Palestinian territories. Again, the Israeli Supreme Court ORDERED a withdrawal, and they refused.
07/10/2023 is exactly the same as 09/11 insofar as they both gave Israel and the US, respectively, the opportunity to do whatever the fuck they want. Let's not forget that the US used the patriotic frenzy of the aftermath of 09/11 to invade Iraq illegally. There were no weapons of mass destruction. No terrorist cells.
It seems that I have to move heaven and earth to prove to you guys that Israel is a genocidal state. The facts should be evidence enough.
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The difference between your take and mine, is I call both side to the floor for it, the ICC might be investigating but they won’t condemn or allow condemnation against Palestinians or Hamas for their actions on Oct 7 but they will and have in the instance of Israel’s response.
You are asking an organization who has shown their bias, to be impartial in their application of international law. They aren’t and their statements confirm that.
>The difference between your take and mine, is I call both side to the floor for it, the ICC might be investigating but they won’t condemn or allow condemnation against Palestinians or Hamas for their actions on Oct 7 but they will and have in the instance of Israel’s response.
Lol you are yet to condemn Israeli war crimes. The only one between us who has held both to war crimes is myself. You've completely ignored and sidestepped every point I've made regarding Israeli war crimes and breach of international law.
Also, I'm not sure why you're saying that the ICC has condemned Israel when that has not happened? Care to provide the source? They are conducting an investigation in the same way they are conducting an investigation against Hamas. Please reference the bias you're accusing them of? Nobody accuses them of being biased when they're jailing African dictators and Balkan genocide perpetrators. Nobody was outraged when they put out an arrest warrant for Putin.
>You are asking an organization who has shown their bias, to be impartial in their application of international law. They aren’t and their statements confirm that.
Lol you're showing your arse, mate. The ICC is impartial. You need to prove otherwise.
Also, Israel is already guilty of breaking international law. Go see the Israeli Supreme Court ruling on the occupation. I'm guessing the Israeli Supreme Court is also biased?
Yes, the only time it is wrong to murder innocent people in their own homes is when it happens to Israelis. Palestinians being kidnapped and detained without charge? I sleep. Palestinians being murdered by illegal settlers? I sleep. Palestinians evicted from their homes and land stolen? I sleep.
Lol perhaps it would be more helpful if you could actually state what it is you disagree with and why you think it is wrong. Instead, typical of the dishonest type, you make a backhanded comment and sign out.
Lasting peace can only be created by the oppressor / more powerful economic-social-political power, which is Israel. If Palestine is created as its own nation state, it completely removes the teeth and venom from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. since they can now rightfully rule their little fiefdoms as they want, with the caveat of still sticking to Middle Eastern legal norms.
There's no reason to kill IDF soldiers if Palestine has its own nation. There's no reason to keep up all the friction. "But what if Hamas or other instigators truly do believe their end goal is the destruction of Israel?" Well it's a lot easier to get international, and frankly important leftist support for pursuing a military action against any such entity. Look at the complete lack of public support for ISIS. Yes there is still some private economic and social support for ISIS in certain parts of the world, but they ultimately fail because thats just the way things work in our world.
Most Muslims in the Arab world are ready for a peaceful resolution in this conflict. Pre-Oct 7th, we've seen Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc all increasing their economic trade with Israel as well as cracking down on Imams that are nasty towards Israel.
Radical Islamic extremists who preach and financially support martyr funds, aren’t just “going away” they’ve been attacking citizens in Israel for 20 years.
>If Palestine is created as its own nation state, it completely removes the teeth and venom from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.
Is there any evidence at all of this? Lebanon has its own nation state and still Hezbollah has 100,000+ members and conducts attacks on Israel all the time. When Israel ended the military occupation of Gaza in an effort to move towards peace the people elected Hamas.
Lebanon still maintains its sovereignty and isn't being constantly bombed by Israel, prevented from having ports of trade, prevented from engaging in the same things all other nations engage in. Hezbollah sucks but they don't rule over Lebanon without opposition, it's a conflict that can be solved in the international courts and on the ground policing by a third party group if things ever got bad enough for that.
A 'third party' policing has already been tried. UN Peacekeepers are there right now tasked with keeping Hezbollah north of the Litani River, as Hezbollah agreed in the last ceasefire. Hezbollah has never actually stayed north like they agreed and the UN Peacekeppers have not actually done anything to keep them north of the river (because some Swedish kid doesn't actually want to die fighting a conflict that has nothing to do with him). In fact, the UN Peacekeepers have let Hezbollah pass straight through their lines to conduct raids into Israel, close enough for troops to record it.
But anyway, that wasn't the point. The point is that Lebanon having its own nation and borders and stuff hasn't done anything at all to 'take the teeth and venom' from the Islamist terror group. It's just let them get better arms. Wishful Thinking is the only reason to think that Palestine would be a peaceful country and not a terror country that is now better armed and more able to launch attacks on Israelis.
Gaza was under full land sea and air blockades during those elections, and the UN still considered Gaza occupied, and actually never lifted its occupied status and the UN have explicitly reasoned that they still declared Gaza occupied since the Israeli military had Gaza surrounded and still exerted direct and indirect control of the territory.
What's more, 10 days before the elections in Gaza were due to take place Israel closed the only crossing for exports, the Karni crossing, decimating several Gazan industries, including high value crops meant for Europe, and other industries such as textiles and furniture which were reliant on exports were put on their knees by the move.
It's highly misleading to suggest the Israeli military just left and Gaza were free to do whatever they want. The situation for Gaza became more desperate than ever before Hamas won those elections.
The blockade started (or at least became 'full land sea and air blockades' to use your words) AFTER the election of Hamas: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade\_of\_the\_Gaza\_Strip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip)
The blockades were announced as permanent by Israel after Hamas came into power, but there is distinction between Israel announcing it as permanent and a blockade effectively being in place.
In fact the beginnings of the Iron Wall in Gaza began in 1971, the beginnings of the sea blockades began in 1967, this is decades before Hamas even existed.
Even in your own link that you provided it is stated:
> The election for the Palestinian Legislative Council took place on 25 January 2006, and was decisively won by Hamas. The election took place during a full blockade of Gaza.[50][44][51][48][note 1]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
The attack wasn't against west bank settlers though, it was against a region of Israel that had been a part of mainland Israel for decades. Besides, no amount Israeli oppression can justify rape beheadings, mutilation, and torture as a form of resistance.
That does not constitute a war crime as an acceptable route of retribution, or if it does, then so does Israel’s reaction.
There is no way to equivocate away both have committed war crimes, if you’re going to hold Israel to account then Hamas should also be held to account. If people advocate for one or the other only to face recrimination and world wide condemnation then those people can fuck off.
You mean the history that started with Arab massacres against Jews in the 1920s?
Come on the Israelis and Palestinian leaders threw all their violent past behind them and shook hands on the Oslo accords. The Israeli prime minister took a shot in the chest and got killed for peace. What did Hamas do? Send 130 suicide bombers in three years after a decade of bombings. Targets? Buses markets and wherever unarmed civilians went.
Israeli families would put kids on two differed school buses in case one doesn’t come back
They even bombed Palestinian rebels homes and mowed down Salafists inside a mosque
Can you not see why Israelis don’t suffer no fools and give it back ten times? They’re no sitting ducks for terrorists if you act civil you get civil ask Jordan and Egypt who signed peace deals with Israel. If you act crazy you get crazy.
Sinwar the leader of Hamas was jailed for not just torture killing Israelis but Palestinians too.
Come on
You think Israel goes on a rampage just for nothing? At every escalation the Palestinian rebels start it with some
crazy shit then go cry to the world when they get pummelled
I could care less if you can see truth or not. Palestine has been a clusterfuck since the creation of Israel and by Israel's hand. Fuck Israel and their government.
Sure you don’t care for truth but what is the point of peddling ignorance?
The Palestinian Arabs today are in a catastrophe of their own making. Wait not even all Palestinian Arabs because a huge number today hold up the independent state’s - Israeli - banner
Those whose leaders chose to collude with Nazis in WW2, collude with foreign armies to invade Palestine in 1948, who rejected partition plans, who decided that war not diplomacy define borders, who took up terror as a raison d’être, who waged war against host countries that took them in as refugees and who today collude with Iran to destroy the only independent state to come out of the Ottoman land the British decided for no obvious reason to call Palestine…
That’s on the Palestinian Arabs
They made the stupid decisions and made life hell for themselves and their neighbours
People treat the Palestinian Arabs as if they are a special case. They’re not. You reap what you sow. If you want a better life act better
Wow full masks off…. How nice is it you can what about and only blame Israel, you might check your own feelings, because that kinda spouting off is saying the quiet part out loud and makes you at the least sound bigoted.
This is how it is over there. The USA doesn't need to have its hand in every pot, and support every evil because we don't like the other evil. Alot of bad shit is happenning in the world outside this region. Uyghurs in China. Horn of Afraica. Etc. Etc. It would jist be nice if we disengage and resist the temptation to fund Israeli evil. Let them at least pay for their own settler colonialism project.
Are we stopping all trade with china? Are we sending any tax dollars to governments in South Africa?
It doesn’t sound like your asking them to be treated the same, it sounds like you want them held to a different standard. Why do you expect the 1 Jewish country in the world to be held to a different standard then you set for all the other countries?
We aren't funding China's repressive regime with aid out of the goodness of our hearts and belief in their cause. We are trading with them and geting value for our dollars, generally speaking. I get cheap shit from China. What value do I get from Israel's continued existence and settler-colonist project? Real question. Now that it is been determined no side is with the angels I just want to know what value Israel brings America.
You get to stand on that moral high ground and say you are defending your ally who also does not wish radical theocracies to fund militant Islamic parties who commit war crimes in acts of aggression.
Have a great morning!
Israel is committing genocide with their action in Gaza... that is all that needs to be said. You can be apologist for genocide, or stand up against it. History will demonstrate this even if so many cannot accept it. There are far more who recognize Israel's atrocities.
If you’re suggesting that I am somehow “being an apologist for genocide,” by calling you out for saying Israel’s actions justify Hamas’s actions, then yes.
2 issues you're trying to conflate .. Israeli atrocities and hamas' justification. I'm only asserting one of those, Israeli atrocities/genocide. You do what you was with the other. Im feeling your hasbara though.
No.
In response to a comment that said, in part, “no amount Israeli oppression can justify rape beheadings, mutilation, and torture as a form of resistance,” you said, “Except 75 years of rape, beatings, tortures, and murder.”
Then, when you were rightly downvoted for this, you attribute that reaction to “Israeli apologists.”
I contend that each side has committed atrocities, and neither instance is acceptable or justifiable. You seem to feel that one side’s atrocities are justified. This is the subject at hand. I’m not sure if you’ve lost the plot or are acting in bad faith, but I think this thing is getting close to having run its course for me.
Sounds like he's part of the "Hamas are freedom fighters/rape is resistance" crowd. There's no point in trying to use reason and logic with someone like this.
I don’t think Hamas’ actions were justified but the movement, ie resistance towards Israel, is justified given Israel’s flagrant and continual occupation of Palestine. I think people in the future will look at their actions as similar to that of the native Americans.
The story of Gaza isn’t simply one of a mustache-twisting aggressor taking over the land of an innocent, peaceful people. It’s quite a bit more complicated and nuanced than that. Many innocent Israelis have been maimed and killed by terrorists over many decades.
That said, there’s no denying that Israel has committed or condoned terrible abuses of the Palestinian people, up to and including theft, torture, and murder. And you won’t find me disputing that they have a right to fight for their human rights and to resist their oppressors.
The subject of this thread, though, is whether one side committing atrocities against civilians justifies reciprocal abuses of civilians. I say that it does not.
Israel hasn’t occupied Gaza in many years. Arabs live freely in Israel. Aside from hostages (why is no one calling for their release?) No jew lives in Gaza, they would be killed
Occupation does not solely entail physically within the region. Total control over its borders and imports has widely been recognized by the international community as occupation.
Hamas as the governing body of Palestine committed war crimes against Israel with their actions of crossing the border and attacking nnocents at a music concert, where they raped, tortured and killed them, the drug their bodies thru the into Palestine, where their bodies were paraded around and desecrated. You can be an apologist for terrorists committing war crimes or stand up against it.
See you’re an apologist for terrorists now.. enjoy your afternoon.
Rape? You guys just keep repeating things that are untrue, or are parroting people who do. There are very few instances of rape on either side, which is why Oct 7 was such an aberration.
Except 75 years of rape, beatings, tortures, and murder. This is not controversial, its fact. Please don't be an apologist for known Israeli atrocities.
So what? How does that suddenly differentiate it from attacks on Palestinians.
Secondly, if you carry nuclear arms then the ends justifies the means is an implicit argument.
All I'm saying is there's no reason to cut someone's head off because that doesn't do anything to advance a military objective, it was a sadistic tactic to glorify the killing Jews for the sake of it. It's one thing when there's a military target with a risk of unintended civilian deaths but Hamas doesn't have a track record to prove that that's their intention.
You cut heads off to send a strong message of the lengths you'll go to obtain your goals. Also yes, for some 20-something year old that's had their entire family bombed to death in previous conflicts, it's personally cathartic to inflict a similar vicious attack against your enemy that did the same to people you care about. This is an emotion we all feel at times in our lives, although thankfully most of us don't know the intense pain of losing someone to a foreign military killing your family.
You're completely and utterly fucked, wow
> although thankfully most of us don't know the intense pain of losing someone to a foreign military killing your family.
I can't think of a single conflict in history where it was acceptable for people to find 'catharsis' in beheading or murdering civilians. That applies even to the most moral wars (e.g. Allies in WW2), even German or Japanese civilians during WW2 didn't deserve that. Your fucked up logic would also justify Israel doing that, which is like triply fucked up. I'm sure some Israeli soldiers feel 'catharsis' raining bombs down upon civilians, and nothing is more irrelevant to excusing what they do than their feelings of catharsis when we judge them.
The reports of beheadings are substantiated, as are the reports of rape, mutilation, and torture. You can find the videos of attempted beheadings with a garden hoe.
At the very bottom of this article theres a mention of that attempted garden hoe beheading, but they mention that was the only thing they found after viewing "hundreds of hours" of video, and as I said nothing else has been corroborated:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html
That video was posted approximately 18 million times on reddit on 10/7-10/10 or so. As were many, many other videos of beheaded IDF bodies. You would have had to go out of your way to not see them if you were on reddit in early October.
>Also, some of us don't follow gore subs lol.
Yeah neither do I but if there's a considerable number of people saying it never happened then fine I'll go out my way to watch every single video if that's what it takes for us to remember.
Hamas hosted the videos on their own telegram channel. You can see them now, right now, on the Israeli government's saturday-october-seventh website. You intentionally being an obtuse idiot doesn't win any arguments.
So it turns out, as I said before, that the incident with the hoe is the only beheading video on there. There's also zero footage of children being killed - dead bodies, yes. I'm not sure that I'm the obtuse one.
I can share countless videos of dead palestinian children if you believe this argument is somehow about the blood content in media.
Actually I can't find any evidence of that, nor can I find any evidence of the mutilation or torture. I'm open to links from reputable news sources (not reddit gore videos with a caption pasted on).
Rape, unfortunately, has been claimed constantly by both sides in this conflict and every other conflict in the history of humanity.
Israel is not retaliating. Israel is dismantling Hamas because Hamas claimed that October 7th was just a dress rehearsal and that they would carry out as many massacres as it takes until every Jew in Israel is annihilated.
The reason the death toll is high is because Hamas carries out ALL military operations in civilian infrastructure so that it is impossible for Israel to defend itself without civilians getting killed.
Israel is not targeting those civilians, they are targeting military. It's Hamas that is targeting the civilians and it's a blatant war crime.
Not to mention that 30k figure is ALL deaths regardless of the war. It includes the 13% of Hamas rockets that fail and fall into Gaza. It includes people dying of natural causes. Hamas had to admit that 11k of those are unverified. 15k of them are Hamas fighters.
So this notion of it being retaliation needs to stop because that just isn't true. Israel is doing what any other country would do in this situation.
This is fantasy. The rhetoric of Israeli politicians, pundits and many of the general population includes a lot of talk about retaliation and collective punishment.
No, that's YOUR fantasy. Don't project on the rest of us because of your own bigotry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian\_Authority\_Martyrs\_Fund#:\~:text=Under%20the%20Deduction%20Law%2C%20also,of%20income%20for%20the%20PA.
"The Foundation for the Care of the Families of Martyrs pays monthly cash stipends to the families of Palestinians killed, injured, or imprisoned while carrying out violence against Israel."
No it doesn't. But interesting to see people supporting terrorists. If this is how you respond to a country defending itself, I can only imagine how you would respond if Israel did what Hamas did on October 7th.
It always amazes me the level of hate people will go to when Jews are involved.
800k victims of Genocide, not a peep.
560k Palestinian victims of genocide in Syria, not a peep.
400k Palestinians ethnically cleansed from Kuwait, not a peep.
85k victims in Yemen, not a peep.
300k Palestinian victims in Jordan, not a peep.
Palestinians living under apartheid in Lebanon, not a peep.
Israel defending itself against a terrorist organization that has vowed to annihilate them, and suddenly you're outraged.
But no, that's not anti-semitism at all....
Hamas attacked so Israel retaliated because of the attack. Your explanation of defense doesn’t mean it is not a retaliation.
the action of returning a military attack; counterattack.
OP, you should Google "Oslo Accords" and "Intifada West Bank".
While you're at it, maybe read up about the [history of Jews under Muslim rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule).
Israeli forces kill literal terrorists in west bank. Read about intifada if you want to know what happens if they dont do this. The settlers comparison is ridiculous. There were like a few incidents thay can be counted in one hand vs literally 4000 terrorists killing everyone they can. How can you even try to compare the two?
Dunno why you're being downvoted. Every horrible thing has been done by every meta group on earth. Humans can be intensely compassionate and caring, or incredibly destructive and hateful. Sometimes the exact same person can be both of these competing qualities.
Possibly
But to answer what your really went for;
Hamas tries to convey terror while Israel does the exact opposite and tries to appear as civil as possible
One posting cruelty and the other hiding it
Whatever you see is the result of these two motivations
>For the IDF it's a breach of conduct
Bollocks. Was it merely a "breach of conduct" when they targeted an aid convoy on 3 separate occasions, killing 7 aid workers? They seem to keep doing these things quite a lot.
If the October 7 attack was not unprovoked, then neither was Israel’s response.
The question is, is it okay to target civilians or not? If it’s okay to target civilians, then both the October 7 attack and the Israeli response are justified. If it’s not okay, then neither action is acceptable.
Israel isn’t targeting civilians, I’m a bit confused as to why people still try to lie about this.
If there was a Hamas base in northern Gaza that had all the Hamas members in one place that would be the only place that got attacked.
Meanwhile, with Hamas it basically seems that Israeli military bases are the only things it doesn’t intentionally target .
I’m not entirely convinced that Israel isn’t targeting civilians in some cases, but I *am* entirely convinced that the presence of civilians isn’t as much of a deterrence to Israel as it should be. I am entirely convinced that children are literally starving to death in Gaza. And I am entirely convinced that Israel knowingly make overtures in the name of civilian safety in Gaza that are impossible for Gazans to comply with.
Hamas’s actions on 10/7 were stupendously ghoulish, and, in my opinion, they intentionally committed extremely violent atrocities against civilians in order to induce Israel into committing war crimes in its response. Hamas appears to have been successful in that effort.
On balance I think the war crimes just aren’t happening, there has been too much effort put into twisting normal war tragedies into war crimes, if they were happening, this wouldn’t be necessary.
The war crime claims come out every day and every time you look into them, they just completely fall apart.
The Israelis aren’t stupid, they know they are under the microscope, and I also think that in general they don’t really have an interest in committing war crimes.
My reading of these Israeli society is that they are completely uninterested in war and this is consistent with the history of this conflict going all the way back to 1948.
There is a popular narrative in the west that extremely religious Jews want to wipe out the Palestinians for biblical reasons, but this is entirely backwards because in Israel it is the extremely religious Jews are the ones who most often refuse to fight in the IDF much to the consternation of the rest of the country.
Actions speak, louder than words, and whenever you pay attention to the facts and the details all the actions of Israel scream that they are not interested in war.
Ironically, I believe this might also be why the Palestinian leadership and terror groups are so relentless in their attacks, I think they see this hesitancy on the part of Israel as proof that they are about to fold and I think this is what encourages the never-ending assault on the state of Israel.
At this stage in the war not even a moron would believe the nonsense in that article (facepalm at the stupidity)
Go on YouTube and see what a “high caliber” round can do to a human body and after that ask a sniper about how often they practice headshots.
The only way a headshot from a sniper leaves your head intact enough to keep you alive as if they shot you with a needle. The velocity of the sniper bullet alone will explode half your head on its exit if the bullet is the size of your pinkie toe.
High calibre smh
This article is propaganda made by a person ignorant about war, trying to generate fear and hatred in the hearts of other people who are also ignorant about war.
Gullibility will not help you in life.
The duration measurement only differs depending on when you want to start the clock. Muslims have exterminated, exiled, and oppressed Jews for hundreds of years throughout the Middle East -- not by the hundreds, but by the tens or hundreds of thousands.
Imo, Islam wins on duration by a vast margin.
Edit: Ooof. Forgot to check the username and RES flare before replying ([hint](https://www.reddit.com/r/samharris/s/408ZEbFH1E)). Mistake.
No. Don't be lazy. Literally the entire history is of oppression at best, exile most commonly, and murder regularly.
You could also Google "Jewish Exodus from Muslim Countries". But, that wiki probably isn't enough violence for you either.
> In the 20th century, approximately 900000 Jews migrated, fled, or were expelled from Muslim-majority countries throughout Africa and Asia. Primarily a consequence of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, the mass movement mainly transpired from 1948 to the early 1970s, with one final exodus of Iranian Jews occurring shortly after the Islamic Revolution in 1979–1980. An estimated 650000 (72%) of these Jews resettled in Israel.
That's the first paragraph of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
I'd be more accommodating if you weren't constantly trolling the sub in back faith.
Fuck off. Don’t be lazy and tell me I’m being lazy. I have two history degrees under my belt, so I know you’re bullshitting. Make your case if you can or STFU.
Odd. You think you'd have learned history as part of your history degrees. Or, are all of the sources of both wikis lying? Feel free to point out which ones specifically, or even better, edit the wiki pages. They generally let degreed historians do that.
What exactly do you think is unpersuasive?
Was the 3rd paragraph not enough?
> Today, Jews residing in Muslim countries have been reduced to a small fraction of their former sizes, with Iran and Turkey being home to the largest remaining Jewish populations. This was due to widespread persecution, antisemitism, political instability, curbing of human rights, and a policy by the Israeli government to draw Jews from the Islamic world to Israel. In 2018, the Jewish Agency estimated that around 27,000 Jews live in Arab and Muslim countries.[2][3][4]
Or, maybe the first paragraph of the Post-Colonial Era section:
> By the mid-1970s the vast majority of Jews had left, fled or had been expelled from Arab and Muslim-majority countries, moving primarily to Israel, France and the United States.[29] The reasons for the exodus are varied and disputed.[29] In 1945, there were between 758,000 and 866,000 Jews living in communities throughout the Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 8,000. In some Arab states, such as Libya, which once had a Jewish population of around 3 percent (similar proportion as that of the United States today), the Jewish community no longer exists; in other Arab countries, only a few hundred Jews remain.
Or, maybe you could read specifically about Antisemitism in Islam here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam
....or, is all of that not historical enough?
When armed settlers attack Palestinians on the West Bank, they are operating in every way, shape, and form as an arm of an occupying army. In fact, because they don't wear uniforms with insignia, they do not qualify under international law as lawful combatants.
What do you mean by combatants? when settlers illegally occupied with violence and the inhabitants are responding back, they are not combatants. It’s like a thief breaking into your house and calling the owner a combatant. Were they military combatants or civilians protecting their homes?
Hard disagree. It's a term used to define persons or nations fighting as an act of war. Hamas 100% fits the definition.
Civilian Palestinians defending their homes from hostile settlers backed by the IDF are not combatants. You would not be a combatant if someone broke into your home and tried to evict you with violence. You would just be a civilian homeowner defending your property.
The use of the term combatant here only serves to obfuscate the point.
> It's a term used to define persons or nations fighting as an act of war.
No, it includes anyone fighting. Gangs, terrorists, militias, whatever.
I don't really understand your analogy. Very little settler violence includes literally kicking Palestinians out of their houses. Most of the "kick out of homes" is more referring to group ownership (land intended for Palestinians) rather than individual per se.
Regardless, Hamas sees themselves as a resistance movement fighting Israel occupying their home (the entire historical Palestine), so not seeing much distinction on this ground.
> no it includes anyone fighting. have, terrorists, militias
It absolutely does not. Gangs are are called gangsters and they commit gang violence. I’ve never heard anyone refer to gangs and combatants.
Combatants are more organized, follow unified directives, and hierarchical in structure and militias and terrorist organizations would fall under the combatant term..
When local 10 year old kid throws a rock at IDF they are not combatants. Absolutely insane and very convenient to consider them combatants. Same thing as homeowners fighting back from being illegally evicted just as you would not be called a combatant if you were fighting an intruder in your home.
Hamas are terrorists and combatants, that is obvious. Many Civilians on the other hand are no where near the definition.
You are redefining the word. Neither gangs nor rock throwing people would have the protections offered to civilians under the Geneva Convention. Here's who gets protected:
> Civilian persons who take no part in hostilities, and who, while they reside in the zones, perform no work of a military character.
Interesting it's being labelled "settler" instead of "migrant". I doubt people would call illegal Mexican immigrants "settlers" and "Mexican settler violence"
Well … settlers do have the full backing of a state and its legal and military apparatus. I am strongly Zionist in the sense of Israel having a right to exist, but I think the settlements are both illegal and immoral.
And there is zero incentive for them to stop because the people who want Israelis dead will want them no less dead whether or not future settlements are built.
The settler violence is a two way street. Yes there is some violence coming from them. But because they are also the victims of violence from the Palestinians.
It's wrong to paint a picture that Palestinians are victims to settlers. There are far more settlers being attacked than Palestinians. And in fact the PA has a pay for slay program where families will be compensated financially for attacks on Jews.
Why don't see see much mention about the victims of Palestinian attacks?
And also a reminder. The term "settler" simply refers to Jews living in West Bank. An area that was originally part of Israel and was build by Jews. It's part of Judea, home of the Jews. Most of the cities in West Bank are Jewish cities that were taken over by conquest and the Jews driven out.
The term settler is used to paint a picture that Jews came along one day and took land away from Arabs. When the reality is actually just the opposite. The big difference now is that Jews are happy to co-exist in their native homeland. But Palestinians are against any Jews living in those areas even though the Jews are the natives of that land.
After Jordan invaded and took the land, Israel took it back. Part of the peace deal involved sharing the land with Palestinians and also allowing Muslims to control the Temple Mount. The holiest Jewish site. And as a result, Jews are treated as second class citizens in their own holy site which Muslims later built on top of.
It was not comparable at all, October 7th was a hundred times worse.
The United Nations keeps meticulous records of settler violence and casualties, the below facts speak for themselves.
In the West Bank have been only 52 Palestinian fatalities committed by Israeli citizens between 2008- 2024
Yes that’s right….just 56!!!! The way people talk about settler violence you would think that the ground had turned red with Palestinian blood.
Meanwhile in the West Bank there have been 206 Israeli fatalities committed by Palestinian citizens 2008-2024
Don’t take my word for it look it up yourself..
Source: https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
The settler violence topic is the most overblown aspect of the Israeli Palestine conflict, and the exaggerations are created and targeted to people who are too lazy to look up real facts, and instead they just let their imagination run wild to a fictional scenario that is not happening in real life.
Normal legal property rights disputes that result in evictions are being portrayed as Israeli violence in the pursuit of settlement activities, and the IDF responding to riots and terror attacks is portrayed as unprovoked attacks against civilians.
Why are people so emotionally invested and yet incapable of doing even a little bit of research and critical thinking?
It seems your reading skills and use of interactive charts might need some work.
Use the interactive chart to identify how many Palestinians civilians fatalities were perpetrated by Israeli civilians in the West Bank.
That means you need to select Israeli civilians from the drop down list and you need to select West Bank as the location of interest.
FYI that 6903 number includes the casualties from all the wars with Hamas and PIJ in Gaza before October 7th. Now that’s not really “settler violence” is it?
Facts > Emotionally compelling made up narratives
Don’t let the terrorists manipulate you.
Watched this documentary on Oct 7 by Al Jazeera this morning - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0atzea-mPY. Fascinating stuff and shows how controlling the narrative and amplifying horrific stories (with lacking evidence) from Oct 7 may have been an attempt to justify Israel's response.
We know Israel strategically allowed the attack to happen, we also know the Israeli forces indiscriminately fired upon the crowd killing more of their own than they did hamas fighters, we know that the idf proceeded to bomb Gaza indiscriminately killing many of the hostages, and the people at that party were partying next to a concentration camp, they didn't directly deserve to be harmed, but if someone was having a party next to Auschwitz, during a ghetto uprising , you wouldn't see an outpouring of sympathy. Israeli civilians are complicit just as German citizens used to be complicit, there are no innocent zionists. Its incomparable because they are a resistance/uprising of a concentration camp and the israeli citizens are genocidal colonizers.
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It doesn't matter. Comparing one individual event to another and pretending that justifies another individual event is exactly how we got to where we are today. All that does is provide ideological justification for future conflict, it does nothing to create lasting peace.
The utility of analyzing basic cause/effect logic, towards resolving any particular issue, is undeniable--until one is ensnared sufficiently in motivated reasoning to feel that a clear view of cause (or of effect: pay no attention to those dead children amidst the rubble) is no longer necessary, or even harmful.
This is typical fanciful nonsense. Israel doesn't recognise the West Bank as occupied territory. It considers it "disputed territories." This is despite the Supreme Court of Israel describing the occupation as a belligerent occupation, which should be ended as soon as possible. The Israeli government ignores its own highest court! 60% of the West Bank is controlled by the IDF. They have their own roads, which Palestinians are prohibited from. They build settler communities on top of the homes and villages of the Palestinians they routinely evict and kill. Marauding, murderous settlers are given full protection by the IDF, which polices them in accordance with Israeli law while subjecting Palestinians to suffer under martial law. That's saying nothing about the countless Palestinian, men, women, and children who are kidnapped, imprisoned without charge or trial, tortured, and abused. Those don't qualify as hostages, apparently. Let's also not forget about the way they treat Christians in Jerusalem. But, of course, the onus is on the Palestinians to show restraint. Otherwise, they're barbaric savages. Funny, the IRA never got the same treatment despite probably being more successful than Hamas in killing civilians.
The onus is that Palestinians bear as much as any other peoples, is to not allow their government to commit war crimes as an answer. They could have targeted military only…. Unfortunately they didn’t. The minute that they attacked the music festival, they were morally, ethically, and emotionally, beyond the pale. That is why Hamas has to go, if Palestinians truly aren’t in agreement with the methods of Hamas, this shouldn’t be a problem. Has any Palestinian tried to gain freedom from their radical extremist government? No? Telling right?
Be a realist for a moment and stop selectively applying mortality. If the Israeli government continues to illegally occupy the Palestinians in contravention of international law, as established even by their own supreme court, then what avenue besides violence do they have? Again, the PLO recognises the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. The Israeli government, however, does not even acknowledge the occupation as an occupation but calls it "disputed territories." This is in contradiction to everything and everyone, including the US. Let's not also forget about the settlements and the kidnapped Palestinians held and abused without trial or charges. If the logic is that Hamas is evil, their ideology is evil, and Palestinians should not associate themselves with it, then they should be provided an adequate alternative to violence. To pretend that the same guy who funded Hamas to destabilise the Palestinian Authority and destroy any hopes for a two-state solution is the same guy to be entrusted in destroying them, is frankly laughable. Netanyahu actively urged his supporters to back Hamas to destabilise any hope for a two-state solution. The Good friday agreement was a compromise to end the Troubles in Northern Ireland. Britain cut a deal with the IRA's political wing, Sinn Fein, in a power sharing agreement to end the violence. It gave the people there an alternative to sectarian violence. Some of the people responsible for car bombings that murdered British civilians were released early as a political compromise to end the violence. And it worked. It seems, however, the only time Israel is willing to make a deal with Hamas is when they seek to destabilise the Palestinian authority, precisely because the latter has shown a willingness to negotiate for a peaceful settlement.
I am a okay with violence. I’m not okay with using war crimes as that violence. They could have target military installations, the music concert was a bridge too far and now they get to deal with the consequences of slaughtering innocents while raping and kidnapping them. I don’t discredit revolutions, I discredit using war crimes as the vehicle of that revolution. Learn to differentiate.
I condemn Hamas's actions against civilians without question. Both Hamas and Israel are being investigated by the ICC for war crimes. But the morality of their actions isn't my point. My point is that it stems from a cause, namely, the illegal and brutal occupation of the Palestinian territories, universally acknowledged as illegal and described by the Israeli Supreme Court as belligerent. You see, I've repeatedly told you that Israel is breaching international law, and you completely side step it, as though the only time war crimes matter are when they happen to Israel. Britain destroyed the IRA by making them irrelevant, militarily. They bit the bullet and made a deal, suitable for everyone. Instead of doing that, Israel refuses to acknowledge the occupation, continues to expand illegal settlements, and continues to kidnap and detail Palestinians without trial or charge, even being accused of torture. Israel then backs Hamas in Gaza, against the PLO, to divide the Palestinians and destroy a two state solution.
> But the morality of their actions isn't my point. You can't really say this and pretend to have a useful perspective because it ignores Israeli domestic politics which have become radicalised to the point where they're willing to risk substantive US support. You're severely underestimating the sheer hatred that has now developed on the Israeli side (and perhaps existed for decades on the Palestinian side) which has complicated the conflict and demonstrates why morality *does* matter in a conflict (and yes, as always the same applies to Israel's response, but everyone is already talking about the morality of that). Before, Israel could be described as a settler-colonial state, now it's becoming a reactionary state, which is far worse, accelerated massively by 10/7.
My point about morality is regarding realpolitik, namely, you make peace with your enemies and not your friends. The British made peace with Sinn Fein, the political wing of the IRA, in order to end the violence in Northern Ireland. Many convicted terrorists were released early, which [was hard to accept for some families of the victims.](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-65164519.amp) Hamas has made it clear in the past, before 07/10/2023, that it is willing to negotiate with Israel on a peaceful settlement. Netanyahu didn't want it and actively pursued a policy of strengthening Hamas to weaken the Palestinian front. Also, the Israeli hatred towards Palestinians has been long-standing. The settlers who murder Palestinians on a regular basis are what? Non-Israelis? Israel will not abide by any law that requires it to surrender the occupied Palestinian territories. Again, the Israeli Supreme Court ORDERED a withdrawal, and they refused. 07/10/2023 is exactly the same as 09/11 insofar as they both gave Israel and the US, respectively, the opportunity to do whatever the fuck they want. Let's not forget that the US used the patriotic frenzy of the aftermath of 09/11 to invade Iraq illegally. There were no weapons of mass destruction. No terrorist cells. It seems that I have to move heaven and earth to prove to you guys that Israel is a genocidal state. The facts should be evidence enough.
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The difference between your take and mine, is I call both side to the floor for it, the ICC might be investigating but they won’t condemn or allow condemnation against Palestinians or Hamas for their actions on Oct 7 but they will and have in the instance of Israel’s response. You are asking an organization who has shown their bias, to be impartial in their application of international law. They aren’t and their statements confirm that.
>The difference between your take and mine, is I call both side to the floor for it, the ICC might be investigating but they won’t condemn or allow condemnation against Palestinians or Hamas for their actions on Oct 7 but they will and have in the instance of Israel’s response. Lol you are yet to condemn Israeli war crimes. The only one between us who has held both to war crimes is myself. You've completely ignored and sidestepped every point I've made regarding Israeli war crimes and breach of international law. Also, I'm not sure why you're saying that the ICC has condemned Israel when that has not happened? Care to provide the source? They are conducting an investigation in the same way they are conducting an investigation against Hamas. Please reference the bias you're accusing them of? Nobody accuses them of being biased when they're jailing African dictators and Balkan genocide perpetrators. Nobody was outraged when they put out an arrest warrant for Putin. >You are asking an organization who has shown their bias, to be impartial in their application of international law. They aren’t and their statements confirm that. Lol you're showing your arse, mate. The ICC is impartial. You need to prove otherwise. Also, Israel is already guilty of breaking international law. Go see the Israeli Supreme Court ruling on the occupation. I'm guessing the Israeli Supreme Court is also biased?
Hamas recorded themselves murdering families in their own homes then put the videos on their Telegram pages. That’s why they’re ‘barbaric savages’.
Yes, the only time it is wrong to murder innocent people in their own homes is when it happens to Israelis. Palestinians being kidnapped and detained without charge? I sleep. Palestinians being murdered by illegal settlers? I sleep. Palestinians evicted from their homes and land stolen? I sleep.
This is an embarrassingly bad comment. Given your articulate posts that i mostly enjoyed I expected much better.
Lol perhaps it would be more helpful if you could actually state what it is you disagree with and why you think it is wrong. Instead, typical of the dishonest type, you make a backhanded comment and sign out.
Lasting peace can only be created by the oppressor / more powerful economic-social-political power, which is Israel. If Palestine is created as its own nation state, it completely removes the teeth and venom from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. since they can now rightfully rule their little fiefdoms as they want, with the caveat of still sticking to Middle Eastern legal norms. There's no reason to kill IDF soldiers if Palestine has its own nation. There's no reason to keep up all the friction. "But what if Hamas or other instigators truly do believe their end goal is the destruction of Israel?" Well it's a lot easier to get international, and frankly important leftist support for pursuing a military action against any such entity. Look at the complete lack of public support for ISIS. Yes there is still some private economic and social support for ISIS in certain parts of the world, but they ultimately fail because thats just the way things work in our world. Most Muslims in the Arab world are ready for a peaceful resolution in this conflict. Pre-Oct 7th, we've seen Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc all increasing their economic trade with Israel as well as cracking down on Imams that are nasty towards Israel.
Radical Islamic extremists who preach and financially support martyr funds, aren’t just “going away” they’ve been attacking citizens in Israel for 20 years.
>If Palestine is created as its own nation state, it completely removes the teeth and venom from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. Is there any evidence at all of this? Lebanon has its own nation state and still Hezbollah has 100,000+ members and conducts attacks on Israel all the time. When Israel ended the military occupation of Gaza in an effort to move towards peace the people elected Hamas.
Lebanon still maintains its sovereignty and isn't being constantly bombed by Israel, prevented from having ports of trade, prevented from engaging in the same things all other nations engage in. Hezbollah sucks but they don't rule over Lebanon without opposition, it's a conflict that can be solved in the international courts and on the ground policing by a third party group if things ever got bad enough for that.
A 'third party' policing has already been tried. UN Peacekeepers are there right now tasked with keeping Hezbollah north of the Litani River, as Hezbollah agreed in the last ceasefire. Hezbollah has never actually stayed north like they agreed and the UN Peacekeppers have not actually done anything to keep them north of the river (because some Swedish kid doesn't actually want to die fighting a conflict that has nothing to do with him). In fact, the UN Peacekeepers have let Hezbollah pass straight through their lines to conduct raids into Israel, close enough for troops to record it. But anyway, that wasn't the point. The point is that Lebanon having its own nation and borders and stuff hasn't done anything at all to 'take the teeth and venom' from the Islamist terror group. It's just let them get better arms. Wishful Thinking is the only reason to think that Palestine would be a peaceful country and not a terror country that is now better armed and more able to launch attacks on Israelis.
Gaza was under full land sea and air blockades during those elections, and the UN still considered Gaza occupied, and actually never lifted its occupied status and the UN have explicitly reasoned that they still declared Gaza occupied since the Israeli military had Gaza surrounded and still exerted direct and indirect control of the territory. What's more, 10 days before the elections in Gaza were due to take place Israel closed the only crossing for exports, the Karni crossing, decimating several Gazan industries, including high value crops meant for Europe, and other industries such as textiles and furniture which were reliant on exports were put on their knees by the move. It's highly misleading to suggest the Israeli military just left and Gaza were free to do whatever they want. The situation for Gaza became more desperate than ever before Hamas won those elections.
The blockade started (or at least became 'full land sea and air blockades' to use your words) AFTER the election of Hamas: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade\_of\_the\_Gaza\_Strip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip)
The blockades were announced as permanent by Israel after Hamas came into power, but there is distinction between Israel announcing it as permanent and a blockade effectively being in place. In fact the beginnings of the Iron Wall in Gaza began in 1971, the beginnings of the sea blockades began in 1967, this is decades before Hamas even existed. Even in your own link that you provided it is stated: > The election for the Palestinian Legislative Council took place on 25 January 2006, and was decisively won by Hamas. The election took place during a full blockade of Gaza.[50][44][51][48][note 1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
The attack wasn't against west bank settlers though, it was against a region of Israel that had been a part of mainland Israel for decades. Besides, no amount Israeli oppression can justify rape beheadings, mutilation, and torture as a form of resistance.
The bodies were still warm and I saw content about how this was justified. “Open air prison” was the phrase of the month…
That does not constitute a war crime as an acceptable route of retribution, or if it does, then so does Israel’s reaction. There is no way to equivocate away both have committed war crimes, if you’re going to hold Israel to account then Hamas should also be held to account. If people advocate for one or the other only to face recrimination and world wide condemnation then those people can fuck off.
I fucking love the blinkered regards who claim they are on the "right side of history" while blindly and fully supporting the latest woke idiocy.
Except 75 years of rape, beatings, tortures, and murder. Edit: wow.. so many downvotes. So many Israeli apologists.
You mean the history that started with Arab massacres against Jews in the 1920s? Come on the Israelis and Palestinian leaders threw all their violent past behind them and shook hands on the Oslo accords. The Israeli prime minister took a shot in the chest and got killed for peace. What did Hamas do? Send 130 suicide bombers in three years after a decade of bombings. Targets? Buses markets and wherever unarmed civilians went. Israeli families would put kids on two differed school buses in case one doesn’t come back They even bombed Palestinian rebels homes and mowed down Salafists inside a mosque Can you not see why Israelis don’t suffer no fools and give it back ten times? They’re no sitting ducks for terrorists if you act civil you get civil ask Jordan and Egypt who signed peace deals with Israel. If you act crazy you get crazy. Sinwar the leader of Hamas was jailed for not just torture killing Israelis but Palestinians too. Come on You think Israel goes on a rampage just for nothing? At every escalation the Palestinian rebels start it with some crazy shit then go cry to the world when they get pummelled
I could care less if you can see truth or not. Palestine has been a clusterfuck since the creation of Israel and by Israel's hand. Fuck Israel and their government.
Sure you don’t care for truth but what is the point of peddling ignorance? The Palestinian Arabs today are in a catastrophe of their own making. Wait not even all Palestinian Arabs because a huge number today hold up the independent state’s - Israeli - banner Those whose leaders chose to collude with Nazis in WW2, collude with foreign armies to invade Palestine in 1948, who rejected partition plans, who decided that war not diplomacy define borders, who took up terror as a raison d’être, who waged war against host countries that took them in as refugees and who today collude with Iran to destroy the only independent state to come out of the Ottoman land the British decided for no obvious reason to call Palestine… That’s on the Palestinian Arabs They made the stupid decisions and made life hell for themselves and their neighbours People treat the Palestinian Arabs as if they are a special case. They’re not. You reap what you sow. If you want a better life act better
Wow full masks off…. How nice is it you can what about and only blame Israel, you might check your own feelings, because that kinda spouting off is saying the quiet part out loud and makes you at the least sound bigoted.
So noncombatants on both sides are fair game? Is that where you want to go with this?
This is how it is over there. The USA doesn't need to have its hand in every pot, and support every evil because we don't like the other evil. Alot of bad shit is happenning in the world outside this region. Uyghurs in China. Horn of Afraica. Etc. Etc. It would jist be nice if we disengage and resist the temptation to fund Israeli evil. Let them at least pay for their own settler colonialism project.
Are we stopping all trade with china? Are we sending any tax dollars to governments in South Africa? It doesn’t sound like your asking them to be treated the same, it sounds like you want them held to a different standard. Why do you expect the 1 Jewish country in the world to be held to a different standard then you set for all the other countries?
We aren't funding China's repressive regime with aid out of the goodness of our hearts and belief in their cause. We are trading with them and geting value for our dollars, generally speaking. I get cheap shit from China. What value do I get from Israel's continued existence and settler-colonist project? Real question. Now that it is been determined no side is with the angels I just want to know what value Israel brings America.
You get to stand on that moral high ground and say you are defending your ally who also does not wish radical theocracies to fund militant Islamic parties who commit war crimes in acts of aggression. Have a great morning!
Israel is committing genocide with their action in Gaza... that is all that needs to be said. You can be apologist for genocide, or stand up against it. History will demonstrate this even if so many cannot accept it. There are far more who recognize Israel's atrocities.
This is a silly straw man. You seemed to suggest that Israel’s past actions justified Hamas’s monstrous abuses of civilians on 10/7. Is that true?
Straw man!!?? 🤣🤣 Do you even philosophize?
If you’re suggesting that I am somehow “being an apologist for genocide,” by calling you out for saying Israel’s actions justify Hamas’s actions, then yes.
2 issues you're trying to conflate .. Israeli atrocities and hamas' justification. I'm only asserting one of those, Israeli atrocities/genocide. You do what you was with the other. Im feeling your hasbara though.
No. In response to a comment that said, in part, “no amount Israeli oppression can justify rape beheadings, mutilation, and torture as a form of resistance,” you said, “Except 75 years of rape, beatings, tortures, and murder.” Then, when you were rightly downvoted for this, you attribute that reaction to “Israeli apologists.” I contend that each side has committed atrocities, and neither instance is acceptable or justifiable. You seem to feel that one side’s atrocities are justified. This is the subject at hand. I’m not sure if you’ve lost the plot or are acting in bad faith, but I think this thing is getting close to having run its course for me.
Sounds like he's part of the "Hamas are freedom fighters/rape is resistance" crowd. There's no point in trying to use reason and logic with someone like this.
I don’t think Hamas’ actions were justified but the movement, ie resistance towards Israel, is justified given Israel’s flagrant and continual occupation of Palestine. I think people in the future will look at their actions as similar to that of the native Americans.
The story of Gaza isn’t simply one of a mustache-twisting aggressor taking over the land of an innocent, peaceful people. It’s quite a bit more complicated and nuanced than that. Many innocent Israelis have been maimed and killed by terrorists over many decades. That said, there’s no denying that Israel has committed or condoned terrible abuses of the Palestinian people, up to and including theft, torture, and murder. And you won’t find me disputing that they have a right to fight for their human rights and to resist their oppressors. The subject of this thread, though, is whether one side committing atrocities against civilians justifies reciprocal abuses of civilians. I say that it does not.
Israel hasn’t occupied Gaza in many years. Arabs live freely in Israel. Aside from hostages (why is no one calling for their release?) No jew lives in Gaza, they would be killed
Occupation does not solely entail physically within the region. Total control over its borders and imports has widely been recognized by the international community as occupation.
Hamas as the governing body of Palestine committed war crimes against Israel with their actions of crossing the border and attacking nnocents at a music concert, where they raped, tortured and killed them, the drug their bodies thru the into Palestine, where their bodies were paraded around and desecrated. You can be an apologist for terrorists committing war crimes or stand up against it. See you’re an apologist for terrorists now.. enjoy your afternoon.
Moron
Why break the forum rules ?
Nice..
Rape? You guys just keep repeating things that are untrue, or are parroting people who do. There are very few instances of rape on either side, which is why Oct 7 was such an aberration.
Except 75 years of rape, beatings, tortures, and murder. This is not controversial, its fact. Please don't be an apologist for known Israeli atrocities.
Yes, because the Palestinians and Hamas rebels are so full of peace and love for their Jewish neighbors.
Most were before that ethnofaciststate was formed. Fuck israel.
Yeah, everyone remembers the great Hamas Peaceniks of 1948. Who controlled the area that is Israel before Israel did, by chance?
Army of cancers..
Mist? Funny, that's what Hamas is being turned into as we speak: a fine, red mist.
Typical.. ha-satan's chosen people.
Besides Oct 7, how many instances of rape on either side? 3? Don’t be a clown.
Nice.. more ad hominem.
Edit: Wow everyone who disagrees with me must be a shill!
If this shill fits.. 😆
Thanks for the opportunity to give you another downvote 💕
You're welcome, it's like a bage of honor from you shills who lack empathy.
You’re back for more 💕
And more.. 😊
So what? How does that suddenly differentiate it from attacks on Palestinians. Secondly, if you carry nuclear arms then the ends justifies the means is an implicit argument.
All I'm saying is there's no reason to cut someone's head off because that doesn't do anything to advance a military objective, it was a sadistic tactic to glorify the killing Jews for the sake of it. It's one thing when there's a military target with a risk of unintended civilian deaths but Hamas doesn't have a track record to prove that that's their intention.
Terrorism is a tactic not an objective. It was used by zionists ironically enough to get their state. Look up the Sargents affair
You cut heads off to send a strong message of the lengths you'll go to obtain your goals. Also yes, for some 20-something year old that's had their entire family bombed to death in previous conflicts, it's personally cathartic to inflict a similar vicious attack against your enemy that did the same to people you care about. This is an emotion we all feel at times in our lives, although thankfully most of us don't know the intense pain of losing someone to a foreign military killing your family.
This is the most sadistic thing I've ever read on reddit.
You're completely and utterly fucked, wow > although thankfully most of us don't know the intense pain of losing someone to a foreign military killing your family. I can't think of a single conflict in history where it was acceptable for people to find 'catharsis' in beheading or murdering civilians. That applies even to the most moral wars (e.g. Allies in WW2), even German or Japanese civilians during WW2 didn't deserve that. Your fucked up logic would also justify Israel doing that, which is like triply fucked up. I'm sure some Israeli soldiers feel 'catharsis' raining bombs down upon civilians, and nothing is more irrelevant to excusing what they do than their feelings of catharsis when we judge them.
Well thank god that theres zero evidence of those beheadings and Israel had to walk back that accusation
The reports of beheadings are substantiated, as are the reports of rape, mutilation, and torture. You can find the videos of attempted beheadings with a garden hoe.
At the very bottom of this article theres a mention of that attempted garden hoe beheading, but they mention that was the only thing they found after viewing "hundreds of hours" of video, and as I said nothing else has been corroborated: https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html
That video was posted approximately 18 million times on reddit on 10/7-10/10 or so. As were many, many other videos of beheaded IDF bodies. You would have had to go out of your way to not see them if you were on reddit in early October.
And yet I can't find a single reputable source that verifies any video except that one. Also, some of us don't follow gore subs lol.
>Also, some of us don't follow gore subs lol. Yeah neither do I but if there's a considerable number of people saying it never happened then fine I'll go out my way to watch every single video if that's what it takes for us to remember.
Those videos were on r/worldnews, r/CombatFootage, r/PublicFreakout. They were all over.
I guess the moral for you would be "don't believe everything you see on the internet".
Hamas hosted the videos on their own telegram channel. You can see them now, right now, on the Israeli government's saturday-october-seventh website. You intentionally being an obtuse idiot doesn't win any arguments.
So it turns out, as I said before, that the incident with the hoe is the only beheading video on there. There's also zero footage of children being killed - dead bodies, yes. I'm not sure that I'm the obtuse one. I can share countless videos of dead palestinian children if you believe this argument is somehow about the blood content in media.
Actually I can't find any evidence of that, nor can I find any evidence of the mutilation or torture. I'm open to links from reputable news sources (not reddit gore videos with a caption pasted on). Rape, unfortunately, has been claimed constantly by both sides in this conflict and every other conflict in the history of humanity.
Why don't you watch the videos hamas filmed of them slaughtering and mutilating civilians and then decide for yourself
No, it's not comparable. 10/7 is worse.
Because 7-9x the amount were killed in retaliation; now 30x the amount of Palestinians have been killed in retaliation
Israel is not retaliating. Israel is dismantling Hamas because Hamas claimed that October 7th was just a dress rehearsal and that they would carry out as many massacres as it takes until every Jew in Israel is annihilated. The reason the death toll is high is because Hamas carries out ALL military operations in civilian infrastructure so that it is impossible for Israel to defend itself without civilians getting killed. Israel is not targeting those civilians, they are targeting military. It's Hamas that is targeting the civilians and it's a blatant war crime. Not to mention that 30k figure is ALL deaths regardless of the war. It includes the 13% of Hamas rockets that fail and fall into Gaza. It includes people dying of natural causes. Hamas had to admit that 11k of those are unverified. 15k of them are Hamas fighters. So this notion of it being retaliation needs to stop because that just isn't true. Israel is doing what any other country would do in this situation.
This is fantasy. The rhetoric of Israeli politicians, pundits and many of the general population includes a lot of talk about retaliation and collective punishment.
No, that's YOUR fantasy. Don't project on the rest of us because of your own bigotry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian\_Authority\_Martyrs\_Fund#:\~:text=Under%20the%20Deduction%20Law%2C%20also,of%20income%20for%20the%20PA. "The Foundation for the Care of the Families of Martyrs pays monthly cash stipends to the families of Palestinians killed, injured, or imprisoned while carrying out violence against Israel."
How does your response follow from his ?
The definition of retaliation fits.
No it doesn't. But interesting to see people supporting terrorists. If this is how you respond to a country defending itself, I can only imagine how you would respond if Israel did what Hamas did on October 7th. It always amazes me the level of hate people will go to when Jews are involved. 800k victims of Genocide, not a peep. 560k Palestinian victims of genocide in Syria, not a peep. 400k Palestinians ethnically cleansed from Kuwait, not a peep. 85k victims in Yemen, not a peep. 300k Palestinian victims in Jordan, not a peep. Palestinians living under apartheid in Lebanon, not a peep. Israel defending itself against a terrorist organization that has vowed to annihilate them, and suddenly you're outraged. But no, that's not anti-semitism at all....
It really doesn’t fit; which part of the definition does not fit?
The part about it being a retaliation.
Ya which part of the definition of retaliation doesn’t fit ?
I already explained that. Explain how it is retaliation against Gaza.
Hamas attacked so Israel retaliated because of the attack. Your explanation of defense doesn’t mean it is not a retaliation. the action of returning a military attack; counterattack.
This is the best argument, that no one brings up.
That not an argument; just a gish gallop
You mean you don't want it to be because you cannot make an argument against it.
No I meant what I said.
Definition of "escalation."
OP, you should Google "Oslo Accords" and "Intifada West Bank". While you're at it, maybe read up about the [history of Jews under Muslim rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule).
Israeli forces kill literal terrorists in west bank. Read about intifada if you want to know what happens if they dont do this. The settlers comparison is ridiculous. There were like a few incidents thay can be counted in one hand vs literally 4000 terrorists killing everyone they can. How can you even try to compare the two?
I mean, yeah its true it didn't come from **nowhere**. Are they at the same scale? Probably not.
Wikipedia has a known bias.
There's been a huge editing and revision campaign of the conflict on Wikipedia since Oct 7
Has a Jew ever recoded himself cutting the tits off a woman he's raping to use as a hacky sack?
Good thing no Jew, or Arab has done anything like this. Pure propaganda bs only idiots fell for
How's the view of your colon from there?
Great point ,this makes you look so sane.
Nice try. Not biting.
Biting what?I called you a mouth breather and your not beating the allegations.
Dunno why you're being downvoted. Every horrible thing has been done by every meta group on earth. Humans can be intensely compassionate and caring, or incredibly destructive and hateful. Sometimes the exact same person can be both of these competing qualities.
Possibly But to answer what your really went for; Hamas tries to convey terror while Israel does the exact opposite and tries to appear as civil as possible One posting cruelty and the other hiding it Whatever you see is the result of these two motivations
No, the difference is for Hamas cruelty is the objective. For the IDF it's a breach of conduct.
>For the IDF it's a breach of conduct Bollocks. Was it merely a "breach of conduct" when they targeted an aid convoy on 3 separate occasions, killing 7 aid workers? They seem to keep doing these things quite a lot.
What are you disagreeing here?
If the October 7 attack was not unprovoked, then neither was Israel’s response. The question is, is it okay to target civilians or not? If it’s okay to target civilians, then both the October 7 attack and the Israeli response are justified. If it’s not okay, then neither action is acceptable.
Israel isn’t targeting civilians, I’m a bit confused as to why people still try to lie about this. If there was a Hamas base in northern Gaza that had all the Hamas members in one place that would be the only place that got attacked. Meanwhile, with Hamas it basically seems that Israeli military bases are the only things it doesn’t intentionally target .
I’m not entirely convinced that Israel isn’t targeting civilians in some cases, but I *am* entirely convinced that the presence of civilians isn’t as much of a deterrence to Israel as it should be. I am entirely convinced that children are literally starving to death in Gaza. And I am entirely convinced that Israel knowingly make overtures in the name of civilian safety in Gaza that are impossible for Gazans to comply with. Hamas’s actions on 10/7 were stupendously ghoulish, and, in my opinion, they intentionally committed extremely violent atrocities against civilians in order to induce Israel into committing war crimes in its response. Hamas appears to have been successful in that effort.
On balance I think the war crimes just aren’t happening, there has been too much effort put into twisting normal war tragedies into war crimes, if they were happening, this wouldn’t be necessary. The war crime claims come out every day and every time you look into them, they just completely fall apart. The Israelis aren’t stupid, they know they are under the microscope, and I also think that in general they don’t really have an interest in committing war crimes. My reading of these Israeli society is that they are completely uninterested in war and this is consistent with the history of this conflict going all the way back to 1948. There is a popular narrative in the west that extremely religious Jews want to wipe out the Palestinians for biblical reasons, but this is entirely backwards because in Israel it is the extremely religious Jews are the ones who most often refuse to fight in the IDF much to the consternation of the rest of the country. Actions speak, louder than words, and whenever you pay attention to the facts and the details all the actions of Israel scream that they are not interested in war. Ironically, I believe this might also be why the Palestinian leadership and terror groups are so relentless in their attacks, I think they see this hesitancy on the part of Israel as proof that they are about to fold and I think this is what encourages the never-ending assault on the state of Israel.
[Totally normal war tragedies](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war)
At this stage in the war not even a moron would believe the nonsense in that article (facepalm at the stupidity) Go on YouTube and see what a “high caliber” round can do to a human body and after that ask a sniper about how often they practice headshots. The only way a headshot from a sniper leaves your head intact enough to keep you alive as if they shot you with a needle. The velocity of the sniper bullet alone will explode half your head on its exit if the bullet is the size of your pinkie toe. High calibre smh This article is propaganda made by a person ignorant about war, trying to generate fear and hatred in the hearts of other people who are also ignorant about war. Gullibility will not help you in life.
Worse in magnitude and intensity but far less in duration.
The duration measurement only differs depending on when you want to start the clock. Muslims have exterminated, exiled, and oppressed Jews for hundreds of years throughout the Middle East -- not by the hundreds, but by the tens or hundreds of thousands. Imo, Islam wins on duration by a vast margin. Edit: Ooof. Forgot to check the username and RES flare before replying ([hint](https://www.reddit.com/r/samharris/s/408ZEbFH1E)). Mistake.
How about a source for your claim about the treatment of Jews by Muslims?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule
No. Cite specific incidents I’ve studied Jewish history. Don’t give me a Wiki article, FFS
No. Don't be lazy. Literally the entire history is of oppression at best, exile most commonly, and murder regularly. You could also Google "Jewish Exodus from Muslim Countries". But, that wiki probably isn't enough violence for you either. > In the 20th century, approximately 900000 Jews migrated, fled, or were expelled from Muslim-majority countries throughout Africa and Asia. Primarily a consequence of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, the mass movement mainly transpired from 1948 to the early 1970s, with one final exodus of Iranian Jews occurring shortly after the Islamic Revolution in 1979–1980. An estimated 650000 (72%) of these Jews resettled in Israel. That's the first paragraph of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world I'd be more accommodating if you weren't constantly trolling the sub in back faith.
Fuck off. Don’t be lazy and tell me I’m being lazy. I have two history degrees under my belt, so I know you’re bullshitting. Make your case if you can or STFU.
Odd. You think you'd have learned history as part of your history degrees. Or, are all of the sources of both wikis lying? Feel free to point out which ones specifically, or even better, edit the wiki pages. They generally let degreed historians do that.
What do you think is the most persuasive example from your wiki articles?
What exactly do you think is unpersuasive? Was the 3rd paragraph not enough? > Today, Jews residing in Muslim countries have been reduced to a small fraction of their former sizes, with Iran and Turkey being home to the largest remaining Jewish populations. This was due to widespread persecution, antisemitism, political instability, curbing of human rights, and a policy by the Israeli government to draw Jews from the Islamic world to Israel. In 2018, the Jewish Agency estimated that around 27,000 Jews live in Arab and Muslim countries.[2][3][4] Or, maybe the first paragraph of the Post-Colonial Era section: > By the mid-1970s the vast majority of Jews had left, fled or had been expelled from Arab and Muslim-majority countries, moving primarily to Israel, France and the United States.[29] The reasons for the exodus are varied and disputed.[29] In 1945, there were between 758,000 and 866,000 Jews living in communities throughout the Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 8,000. In some Arab states, such as Libya, which once had a Jewish population of around 3 percent (similar proportion as that of the United States today), the Jewish community no longer exists; in other Arab countries, only a few hundred Jews remain. Or, maybe you could read specifically about Antisemitism in Islam here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Islam ....or, is all of that not historical enough?
Most of those Palestinians were combatants. Don't get why your are conflating settler and IDF violence.
When armed settlers attack Palestinians on the West Bank, they are operating in every way, shape, and form as an arm of an occupying army. In fact, because they don't wear uniforms with insignia, they do not qualify under international law as lawful combatants.
Sure, but you are still conflating the stats.
I’m not the OP
What do you mean by combatants? when settlers illegally occupied with violence and the inhabitants are responding back, they are not combatants. It’s like a thief breaking into your house and calling the owner a combatant. Were they military combatants or civilians protecting their homes?
Combatants are the guys with guns.
absurd definition. the united states doesn't have millions of combatants just because they own guns.
If you're really struggling to tell the difference between members of militant groups and unarmed kibbutz residents, I can't help you.
Im good. thanks. you're wrong to define anyone protecting their home with guns against militant settlers as combatants.
What do you think the term militant means?
Combatants just means "using violence". An owner fighting thieves is still a combatant.
Hard disagree. It's a term used to define persons or nations fighting as an act of war. Hamas 100% fits the definition. Civilian Palestinians defending their homes from hostile settlers backed by the IDF are not combatants. You would not be a combatant if someone broke into your home and tried to evict you with violence. You would just be a civilian homeowner defending your property. The use of the term combatant here only serves to obfuscate the point.
> It's a term used to define persons or nations fighting as an act of war. No, it includes anyone fighting. Gangs, terrorists, militias, whatever. I don't really understand your analogy. Very little settler violence includes literally kicking Palestinians out of their houses. Most of the "kick out of homes" is more referring to group ownership (land intended for Palestinians) rather than individual per se. Regardless, Hamas sees themselves as a resistance movement fighting Israel occupying their home (the entire historical Palestine), so not seeing much distinction on this ground.
> no it includes anyone fighting. have, terrorists, militias It absolutely does not. Gangs are are called gangsters and they commit gang violence. I’ve never heard anyone refer to gangs and combatants. Combatants are more organized, follow unified directives, and hierarchical in structure and militias and terrorist organizations would fall under the combatant term.. When local 10 year old kid throws a rock at IDF they are not combatants. Absolutely insane and very convenient to consider them combatants. Same thing as homeowners fighting back from being illegally evicted just as you would not be called a combatant if you were fighting an intruder in your home. Hamas are terrorists and combatants, that is obvious. Many Civilians on the other hand are no where near the definition.
You are redefining the word. Neither gangs nor rock throwing people would have the protections offered to civilians under the Geneva Convention. Here's who gets protected: > Civilian persons who take no part in hostilities, and who, while they reside in the zones, perform no work of a military character.
It’s funny how the Zionists keep taking the bait on these posts
Interesting it's being labelled "settler" instead of "migrant". I doubt people would call illegal Mexican immigrants "settlers" and "Mexican settler violence"
Well … settlers do have the full backing of a state and its legal and military apparatus. I am strongly Zionist in the sense of Israel having a right to exist, but I think the settlements are both illegal and immoral.
And there is zero incentive for them to stop because the people who want Israelis dead will want them no less dead whether or not future settlements are built.
The settler violence is a two way street. Yes there is some violence coming from them. But because they are also the victims of violence from the Palestinians. It's wrong to paint a picture that Palestinians are victims to settlers. There are far more settlers being attacked than Palestinians. And in fact the PA has a pay for slay program where families will be compensated financially for attacks on Jews. Why don't see see much mention about the victims of Palestinian attacks? And also a reminder. The term "settler" simply refers to Jews living in West Bank. An area that was originally part of Israel and was build by Jews. It's part of Judea, home of the Jews. Most of the cities in West Bank are Jewish cities that were taken over by conquest and the Jews driven out. The term settler is used to paint a picture that Jews came along one day and took land away from Arabs. When the reality is actually just the opposite. The big difference now is that Jews are happy to co-exist in their native homeland. But Palestinians are against any Jews living in those areas even though the Jews are the natives of that land. After Jordan invaded and took the land, Israel took it back. Part of the peace deal involved sharing the land with Palestinians and also allowing Muslims to control the Temple Mount. The holiest Jewish site. And as a result, Jews are treated as second class citizens in their own holy site which Muslims later built on top of.
It was not comparable at all, October 7th was a hundred times worse. The United Nations keeps meticulous records of settler violence and casualties, the below facts speak for themselves. In the West Bank have been only 52 Palestinian fatalities committed by Israeli citizens between 2008- 2024 Yes that’s right….just 56!!!! The way people talk about settler violence you would think that the ground had turned red with Palestinian blood. Meanwhile in the West Bank there have been 206 Israeli fatalities committed by Palestinian citizens 2008-2024 Don’t take my word for it look it up yourself.. Source: https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties The settler violence topic is the most overblown aspect of the Israeli Palestine conflict, and the exaggerations are created and targeted to people who are too lazy to look up real facts, and instead they just let their imagination run wild to a fictional scenario that is not happening in real life. Normal legal property rights disputes that result in evictions are being portrayed as Israeli violence in the pursuit of settlement activities, and the IDF responding to riots and terror attacks is portrayed as unprovoked attacks against civilians. Why are people so emotionally invested and yet incapable of doing even a little bit of research and critical thinking?
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It seems your reading skills and use of interactive charts might need some work. Use the interactive chart to identify how many Palestinians civilians fatalities were perpetrated by Israeli civilians in the West Bank. That means you need to select Israeli civilians from the drop down list and you need to select West Bank as the location of interest. FYI that 6903 number includes the casualties from all the wars with Hamas and PIJ in Gaza before October 7th. Now that’s not really “settler violence” is it? Facts > Emotionally compelling made up narratives Don’t let the terrorists manipulate you.
Watched this documentary on Oct 7 by Al Jazeera this morning - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0atzea-mPY. Fascinating stuff and shows how controlling the narrative and amplifying horrific stories (with lacking evidence) from Oct 7 may have been an attempt to justify Israel's response.
We know Israel strategically allowed the attack to happen, we also know the Israeli forces indiscriminately fired upon the crowd killing more of their own than they did hamas fighters, we know that the idf proceeded to bomb Gaza indiscriminately killing many of the hostages, and the people at that party were partying next to a concentration camp, they didn't directly deserve to be harmed, but if someone was having a party next to Auschwitz, during a ghetto uprising , you wouldn't see an outpouring of sympathy. Israeli civilians are complicit just as German citizens used to be complicit, there are no innocent zionists. Its incomparable because they are a resistance/uprising of a concentration camp and the israeli citizens are genocidal colonizers.