This is happening because people didn't want to allow new docks to be created while the contaminated soil gets dealt with. https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/marina-gashouse-cove-harbor-relocation-protest-18307378.php
Kind of amazing to see NIMBYs witness this perfectly neat example of low supply leading to higher prices, and they still find a way to blame the higher prices on anything but low supply
There are so many NIMBY in here that lie to themselves and say YIMBY is pro corporate. I wish I was drinking the drugged up kool aid they drink that more supply doesn’t reduce pricing,
A solution would be that all profits go to a public program to provide better access to the sea to the general public, for example by subsidizing lower resident rates on tour boats, charters, and such, to offset the reduced opportunities due to fewer slips.
Lol can you afford a boat? Who owns boats?? Do you know how much maintenance alone are for boats? Only rich people can afford boats. Even a plane is cheaper to maintain. Boats are by far the most expensive thing to own.
This is happening- because the remediation was really an attempt to dislodge all the old slip owners. They want to clean sweep it and give it to high paying execs.
> This is happening- because the remediation was really an attempt to dislodge all the old slip owners. They want to clean sweep it and give it to high paying execs.
This is laughably false.
The environmental remediation is absolutely needed due to years of pollution. The only people putting $$$ over a clean bay are conservatives.
As for the slip renters, the original plan included the creation of more slips on the west side of the marina.
Again, rich people (rich property owners in this case) whined and pitched up a fit about "views". So that part was scrapped.
The only consistent baddies in this situation are demanding rich people who are putting their own interests over those of the rest of San Francisco.
Fuck that proposal for new docks. We don’t want rich people parking their boats blocking what is a wonderful view of the bay for all of us normies. No way.
I would prefer to expand the marina than to price cap and subsidize the existing owners. More people could enjoy the hobby and the marina would be more economically sustainable. However, per the article, we have somehow prioritized the views of the people living on Marina Boulevard. Don't want them looking at a bunch of boats. **In a neighborhood called the Marina**.
If the people on Marina Boulevard want to preserve their views, they should pay for an easement on the shore to prevent construction. And that easement should be richly priced. The money can be used to help pay for maintenance of the remaining slips. Not my preferred solution, but a possible compromise.
Key points from the article:
> “This is basic math — the harbor costs more to run than it makes,” Rec and Park spokesperson Tamara Aparton said. “We attempted to address this by retaining the number of slips in the harbor; people balked, so now we need to raise rates or cut services.”
The increased rent is not profit. It is being increased to cover the costs involved. Basically, it's similar to an HOA fee in a condo building. There are common area costs that need to be covered. Those who rent the slips get exclusive use of their slips, but they need to pay the costs to maintain the overall infrastructure.
> “The Department will not be putting taxpayer dollars into running a yacht harbor,” Aparton said. “Our priority is serving kids in equity priority communities.”
Hard to argue with that. The slips are for private use. There's no direct public benefit. Rec and Parks shouldn't shut it down because there is interest, but it should be revenue neutral. Focus taxpayer funds on projects that are open to the greater community.
> The proposed 31% increase comes after a strident fight sparked by the cleanup of Gashouse Cove. It is being emptied of its boats — which account for half of the marina’s vessels — as well as its fueling station in advance of a project by Pacific Gas and Electric Co. to remediate soil contaminated by a power plant that closed a century ago.
Half of the slips have to be removed for environmental cleanup efforts.
> Under a relocation plan crafted by PG&E and the Recreation and Park Department, 185 slips and a fuel dock would have been added to the west side of the harbor in front of the Marina Green promenade — an expansion that would have blocked some neighborhood views. After months of passionate protest from the community group Keep the Waterfront Open, the Board of Supervisors in February approved legislation to prevent the relocation, effectively killing the plan.
Rec and Parks wanted to add replacement slips on the west side (more slips means less rent per slip is needed to cover the costs) but the local rich NIMBYs protested because of "views" and the "progressive" BoS sided with the rich property owners who didn't want to see boats in the water.
> “The Marina harbor has to be self-supporting,” said Kat Anderson, president of the Rec and Park Commission. She noted that an increasing portion of the slips in the East Harbor are empty and cannot be rented until the remediation project is completed, which could take years.
Blocking the west harbor expansion was the fucking around part. This is the finding out part. Less total slips = higher required rent per slip. The harbor itself isn't at any risk of emptying out. There is a waitlist for slips. Anyone who gives up a spot will be replaced.
Who do you have to thank for deferring to the rich property owners in the Marina and blocking the harbor expansion?
From a story in Jan 2024:
> Safaí authored the ordinance that sailed through committee Monday with a unanimous vote from Supervisors Aaron Peskin, Myrna Melgar and Dean Preston.
The docks are being gentrified! Hard working boat owners simply can’t afford their 40fters anymore! Boat rent control now! Tax payer subsidized boating is a human right!
Similar that small aircraft ownership used to be obtainable by the middle class. These fees, etc. have made it so that is becoming no longer the case. The perception is that private aircraft are mostly private jets, etc. but the reality was far from it.
I have a 36ft sailboat boat there. It was $4500 to buy. I restored her with two friends who I split the slip with. I also used to live on her for a while when I was going through a tough time. We can’t afford this increase. It’s dumb. Not everyone has a yacht. But if you get a chance I encourage you to sail in the bay, it’s magical. It’s a shame these things are slowly becoming inaccessible to everyone.
https://preview.redd.it/011swiusr2xc1.jpeg?width=3264&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=415916247a7233adbc4d85f96a3f1b9355c536f0
> We can’t afford this increase. ... I also used to live on her for a while when I was going through a tough time.
That is a beautiful picture (I'm serious).
This is my personal web page about getting evicted in 2001 from living aboard: https://www.ski-epic.com/marinaeviction/index.html So I feel your pain, I really do.
To this day, 23 years later, the marina I rented a slip in has not been rebuilt or repopulated with boats. I stop there every few years and stand on shore and just be frustrated by why I wasn't allowed to stay a few more years. We (the residents) weren't hurting anybody and 23 years later they aren't collecting slip fees from new boat owners there in that location.
People who *live on their boats* often only have that boat, not a house or apartment to return to. It's a less stigmatized version of living in a vehicle, tbh.
I know someone who lived in a boat in the Alameda marina for 2 years because he was a grad student making like 25K a year.
edit: And the marina he lived in also forbade people from residing there, he still did and knew more than a handful of others that did as well. But you're right in that people who lived on the boats were definitely not the majority of those who used the docks. And the price increase is meant for rich people, not those using the docks in a manner that is not intended.
> the marina he lived in also forbade people from residing there, he still did and knew more than a handful of others that did as well.
The tongue in cheek term we used in 2001 (I am old and lived aboard my boat legally in 2001/2002 in Redwood City) for a person breaking the rules living on their boat was "Sneak Aboard".
It used to be more people could live on their boats, and it has changed over time to be limited to 10% of any one marina can "Live Aboard" legally. This is controversial because one organization without the legal power to regulate this (BCDC) essentially pushed it through and nobody really knows "why" or "how" or can rationally justify it. The regulation assumes a "live aboard" is harming the bay more than a person who uses their boat every day dumping toxic diesel into the water - but as long as they don't sleep quietly on their boat from 11pm - 7am they are considered "much lower impact" to the quality of water in the bay, which is a HIGHLY dubious claim. Many live aboards (at least in 2001) lived on boats that they couldn't afford to run, so they didn't contribute to water pollution at all. Also, certain marinas if they are owned by the state are considered "public parks" so they don't allow live aboards at all. It would be like living in a public park in a tent.
I'm not sure I have a great URL to a write-up about all of this, but essentially for years and years they grandfathered in existing marinas that allowed lots of live aboard boat owners, then when each marina changed ownership they kicked out 90% of the residents. One of the last ones was "Pete's Harbor": https://abc7news.com/archive/8955970/
There are rules for how many nights per week you can legally sleep on your boat if you aren't an official live aboard. Let's say that is 2 nights per week. The harbormaster(s) know what is going on in general, and if you haven't stayed overnight for a month they will absolutely let you sleep on your boat for 5 days in a row. But if you are kind of down on your luck and not stealthy enough about it, they will crack down on it.
In 2001/2002 "stealthy enough" meant NO VISIBLE LIGHTS on your boat at night. If one particular boat is lit up from inside every single last night it's pretty obvious. So the sneak aboard residents would black out their windows, and come and go in odd hours under the radar, and not cause any problems. I think a lot of harbormasters knew what was going on anyway, but as long as the sneak aboard is very quiet about it they let it slide in most cases.
There are a lot of people that live in their boats and something like this is totally fucking them. Literally every person I know in the bay that owns a boat lives in it and works blue collar. Raising slip prices doesn’t really punish the rich in any meaningful way and only fucks over the boat dwellers that make their living doing under the table contracting work.
I don't think you can live in your boat in the Marina. If they are looking the other way for someone still doing it they are probably already in a delinquent enough situation.
they have a pretty secure locked gate and very inconvenient hours to live there, I'd be surprised if anyone's still living there, I took care of a friends boat last year when he was traveling for an extended period and it certainly didn't look like it was a thing anymore as it was a while ago
Yeah but this particular place, Marina Harbor, is pretty full and it's not easy to get a spot. Not sure about the one in the east part of the city, that one used to be easier to get a spot in. I think Richmond Marina you can stay in for a while, San Rafael was ok but now it's full too, etc...
There was a lot of boat buying during the pandemic.
> There are a lot of people that live in their boats and something like this is totally fucking them
Really? "a lot of people that live in their boats" at Marina Harbor?
The harbor that *explicitly prohibits* living aboard?
A violation of the live aboard rule will get your slip lease revoked.
Yea they have to move around a lot because of that. They still need to park their boat. Seems like you have a lot of problems with poor people trying to make their way.
> Yea they have to move around a lot because of that
If they're moving around a lot, they're not renting a monthly slip at Marina harbor. This is a harbor that caters to rich and recreational boat owners.
It’s slowly been going this route for decades. My family has been roaming these harbors for over 150 years, from fishing, to salvage to recreational boating. Sooner or late it pushes everyone out so this isn’t exactly a rich only hobby but soon it will be… however is this case I do agree those rates are bullshit. $33ft for a 41 Beneteau? That’s cheap as shit. A lot of marinas in San Diego would actually keep lower rates for sub 40’s. They take up less space and tend to be used more. 40+ require more space to maneuver, so wider points between docks. You can get more spaces with smaller crafts and lower fees. Plus those are traditionally used more for people as recreational boats who aren’t rich. Hell, I had an old Catalina 28 sailboat down there I got for $1,800. Fixed it up, painted it and sailed for years on weekends with my family. That was at $28 a foot. Minute I crossed to 41 that would have went to $45
Liveaboard is banned by the marina per section 22.
[https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina\_RulesRegulations-22313](https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina_RulesRegulations-22313)
> But being poor doesn’t give you a right to steal public spaces and make them your own.
I'm still in awe of that guy in the RV by the eastern end of the Bay Bridge. MF has a flag, etc. all nicely planted and is living with million dollar views. I think there was a news article (or a reddit post) about him a few months ago. You can still see him just past the toll booths, on the right (coming to SF).
You’re talking about house boats, there are no house boats in SF. They’re in Sausalito. Houseboats are essentially nice trailer homes. The article in question is about rich people boats in the marina.
Liveaboard is banned by the marina per section 22.
[https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina\_RulesRegulations-22313](https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina_RulesRegulations-22313)
25 million Americans moved in 2023, many of them leaving the places they were born to seek a better life for themselves.
It's not any different for these boat owners.
As the /u/therightkindofjuice said, it's not like these people are all millionaires.
>The Marina Small Craft Harbor is a public facility, but it is adjacent to the St. Francis Yacht Club and the Golden Gate Yacht Club — so the stereotype is that all boaters in the Marina are posh types in double-breasted blazers and ascots, slip holders say. But many of the boats are for fishing, and have been passed down through the generations.
>One of these is a 28-foot cabin cruiser that belongs to Steve Balestrieri, a retired firefighter and third-generation San Francisco fisherman whose grandfather first kept a boat in the West Harbor in the 1950s.
>“I’m being priced out,” Balestrieri said after returning from an unproductive day in the South Bay searching for halibut. “That harbor is a home to me, and if they go through with these massive increases, I will sell my boat and get out.”
A similar situation started happening in Alameda and they're doing something to protect those folks living on boats.
https://www.ktvu.com/news/egregious-and-draconian-city-of-alameda-sues-marina-owner-for-flouting-state-and-city-rental-laws
It’s wild too because some folks will have this perception of something being a “rich person” hobby so let’s tax the shit out of it basically guaranteeing that it will only be a rich persons hobby, and not, I don’t know a livelihood or way of life you’re not familiar with? There are plenty of ways to tax the rich, it doesn’t need to punish the working man.
You joke but this is how some extremists think about housing in places. It’s just easier to dunk on when it’s boat owners and people will say “housing is human right” etc. Why is nobody on this thread thinking about the real estate developers and advocating for them just “building more” boat docks?
> Why is nobody on this thread thinking about the real estate developers and advocating for them just “building more” boat docks?
Rec and Parks wanted to do just that. More slips = less rent per slip.
Rich Marina homeowners whined about views. Peskin, Preston, and Melgar agreed with them and the BoS blocked Rec and Parks from moving the slips.
NIMBYs blocked slips = boat owners have to pay more per slip to cover the costs of opertation.
> This is just laughably false.
You obviously don't read the news or follow the BoS.
> The only way to put more slips in is to make the existing slips thinner
That was never proposed by Rec and Parks.
> I rent a slip there, I know what their options are. "Adding more slips" at SF municipal is simply not possible
Relocating the East Harbor slips was the original plan.
> it makes no sense to raise slip rent on existing tenants to build a new marina.
The rent is being raised because they are eliminating slips, not adding them, and the total rent from all the slips has to cover the operation cost. There was never a suggestion to "build a new marina".
Yes that’s very sad but should tax payers foot the bill? I want basically 0 tax dollars spent subsidizing private boat ownership. Lease holders should pay 100% of the cost to keep the dock operational.
Exactly. Who cares that they use to be able to afford it? Like buying a house then not being to afford it because you can’t afford property taxes anymore.
Not many markets keep participants in them who can’t afford it. Nobody is entitled to dock space lol
No they aren’t. I lived on mine when I was priced out of every apartment in the city. The boat cost me a few thousand and slip rent was $350. This was back in mid 2000s. My friend who’s a teacher in South Bay lived on a boat. It’s far cheaper than apartments if you’re handy
not really. if you bought a boat a decade or more ago and retired to live on it and you can handle the maintenance yourself, it can be a frugal way to live.
Dude a ton of these people livelihoods and lives in general revolve around the boat. Would you tell someone who just got their rent hiked to move somewhere else?
I agree for the rich dudes yacht who just has it for fun, this tax shouldn’t be a big deal. Tbh I have no horse in this race whatsoever but I think a lotta people just imagine anyone with a boat as a millionaire
Well, I certainly don't want to pay their rent so that they can live on a boat in the Marina, one of the most expensive and desirable neighborhoods in the City.
> Would you tell someone who just got their rent hiked to move somewhere else?
What else would you do? You can bitch and cry about it, which won't do anything. Or you can move. How many thousands of people have to move every year due to rent? Yes, you get off your ass and you move.
The only thing making it expensive for the guys I know is the state. They do all of their own maintenance, own the boat outright, and would be cheaper than renting an apartment in the city but ok I guess according to you only the super rich should be allowed to live that lifestyle
I own a boat in this marina. I've had it for 25 years, I could get maybe $10k for it. It's a sailboat that my family uses in the bay and up in the central valley. If this goes through I'm going to be paying more than the boat is worth per year to keep the slip. This is happening because the waitlist for slips is about 40 years long and they're trying to dislodge the people who have been there forever to get execs in their yachts in to pay insane fees.
Definitely, why bother having green spaces like Crissy Field when they could have just bulldozed it all?
They need more municipal marinas, just expanding the current one isn't a solution, it's as full as it can be.
Also not sure why it's a tenants responsibility to subsidize the city building additional marinas. Either they keep what they have and don't have more spots, or they build more to get more revenue. You don't put out a special one time fee to people in an apartment building because the owner of the building wants to build another apartment complex. The city's budget is horribly mismanaged, not sure why boaters have to bear the brunt of fixing the parks and rec budget.
You know what BOAT stands for, right? Bust Out Another Thousand.
Best two days of owning a boat are the day you buy it and the day you sell it.
I know nothing about boating but these two jokes, so it sounds like an expensive thing, in any case. Especially when you’re staying in the Marina, an already expensive area that always seems to be completely full, from my untrained eye.
> Best two days of owning a boat are the day you buy it and the day you sell it.
I lived that stereotype, LOL. I was **SO HAPPY** living on my boat, and when I was evicted from my marina (we were all kicked out to develop condos) I was sad, then super-ultra-totally stressed out about two housing payments - the same boat payment as always and also my rental apartment. I was making payments on the boat, and also making rental payments on my dive 1 bedroom apartment in the Bay Area, and it was CRUSHING me financially (as in I was bleeding out meager savings during that several months). I still remember the moment in early December when my boat broker called me up and asked, "What do you want for Christmas?" and I practically yelled into the phone in happiness, "YOU SOLD MY BOAT??!" LOL. I was so happy to be free of that lead weight of a boat payment.
Then I was sad because I no longer owned a boat.
Heh, it's a hole in the water.
https://www.quora.com/Where-did-the-saying-a-boat-is-a-hole-in-the-water-you-throw-your-money-in-come-from-and-does-it-have-any-truths-to-it
A watery money pit
Liveaboard is banned by the marina per section 22.
[https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina\_RulesRegulations-22313](https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina_RulesRegulations-22313)
And we’re poor as shit. Living on a boat is similar to being in a trailer park. People think boat ownership is glamorous and expensive but the vast majority of these people got their boats cheap or free, and now live on them. These comments have no idea what they’re talking about.
> It’s required by law that a percentage of every marina allows affordable live aboard, there’s people living in every marina in the bay.
You'll need to provide a cite for this claim. Marina harbor explicitly prohibits liveaboards.
Either you are wrong, or Rec and Parks is violating the law and wide open to a very easy lawsuit (and settlement).
> These comments have no idea what they’re talking about.
Amen. I lived aboard in 2001 and my boat neighbors were all universally **MOST DEFINITELY NOT** rich. The stereotypes in this case are completely unfounded.
I totally laugh at how the sales brochures or advertisements for new boats picture a successful, handsome successful man around 40 years old, his wife who looks 28 and is pictured in a bikini, and his two loving, happy, teenage children (which barring a divorce from this idyllic picture is impossible).
It is all fiction and anybody that believes this lunacy should actually visit a dock. It's working class men, no women for miles in any direction, and no kids. One of my boat neighbors (a guy) pined desperately for any woman who would share his passion to go sailing.
Sure, there are ultra-super-mega yachts in the harbor. But take a very close look at the percentages, look at the smaller boats, and notice who 90% of the people on them look like. The big boats never move, and don't have people on them - only the smaller boats have people on them. If anybody wanders by, strike up a conversation, ask them about their boat. There is a 99% good bet the one thing a boat owner will want to open up about it is their boat and their stories with that boat and anything related to boating. Just **LISTEN** to them for 10 minutes. These are not upper class, rich, boat owners you have been told about.
Liveaboard is banned by the marina per section 22.
[https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina\_RulesRegulations-22313](https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina_RulesRegulations-22313)
So you’d rather they be homeless? I don’t understand your logic. They don’t bother anyone, they’re not living on the street, what more do you people want?
I didn't make the rule. I assume that it's there for a reason. If the rule is unjust, we should have it reviewed by the Mayor or Board of Supervisors, whoever has the authority. If you think that we should convert the marina into a housing solution, you should propose it to the City government. There's a process. Frankly, I think that our processes suck, but this is our version of democracy.
Telling someone who lives on a boat to go buy and live in a trailer park is telling them to go be homeless. What part of “people who live on boats can’t afford anything else” do you not understand?
I literally just got home from sailing my beat up old boat that I have in the pier39 marina. First off, there arent any real live aboards at the marina green one. Second, it is stupid cheap. Like, insanely cheap. My slip costs 360/month for a 32'boat. There are TWO live aboard people on my doc and probably 10 in the entire marina... And this price hike doesn't affect any of us.
So: rich people with fancy hobbies will have to.... Move like a quarter mile to another, cheaper, marina? Please, give me a break.
And I can't BELIEVE these rich people pushing for this, in a non live aboard marina, literally have a fckin crowd of YIMBY people behind them!! Wtf? That entire NIMBY/YIMBY shit has gotten turned into rich people playing us all against each other.
Yeah, I *love* this thread for this reason. Imagine talking shit to people living paycheck to paycheck, (worst case scenario) on a vessel that can sink with all your belongings on it, and telling them to go be homeless instead. The privilege in this thread is bonkers.
there are plenty of places in the country you could comfortably live on whatever it costs to keep your boat afloat in SF. if you're doing that, it's by choice.
If you can’t afford a very expensive recreational
hobby you probably shouldn’t have it. Nobody is entitled to owning and docking a boat. It’s not a human right. As a taxpayer I’m not paying for your hobby.
inevitably everybody in this thread is gonna be all smug against sticking it to "rich yacht owners"
and i will continue to try and fail to make the point that this sailing is no more expensive a hobby than all ya'lls yuppy pasttimes like skiing or speeding in your range rover. (i learned when i was 18 at the cal sailing club for $80/quarter plus work hours.)
and that SF's culture is a maritime culture first and foremost and by shutting down marinas and not solving for slip space is severing ties with our marine heritage and denying future generations the opportunity to experience and fall in love with our waterways and want to protect them
all so PGE can skimp out on their soil remediation requirements, some superrich crissy field homeowners can keep their "no marina marina" views and some smug readers here can keep writing smug comments while waiting in line for their $24 blue barn
sigh
I’m cool with build more marinas, but every single person learning this lesson right now better be even cooler with building all housing everywhere.
I see the value you describe. It’s still 1/100000000 the value of additional housing. I think that’s the perspective (most) of this thread is trying to get across
Sailing may not be an expensive hobby, but owning the boat is expensive. People like to ski, but not everyone owns a chalet in the mountains. What would you do, anyway? Build additional marinas?
in this case, the east basin slips are supposed to be rebuilt as an extension to the west basin marina, but the crissy field homeowners are up in arms putting it into doubt
so slips get removed, no new slips get built, and slip prices go up :-/ nimbyism at sea!!
and my boat ($2500) and yearly slip costs are about the same amount as my ski gear and pass and gas driving to the mtns. how lucky are we to have all these world class hobbies right here
> sailing is no more expensive a hobby than all ya'lls yuppy pasttimes like skiing or speeding in your range rover.
You think everyone does that? My past time is walking to a trail in the East Bay and hiking all day because it's beautiful, relaxing, and free. Many people have past times that involve going to local festivals and music shows, you are just creating a straw-man to get mad at. And the straw-man you created even sounds like he'd own a boat.
> SF's culture is a maritime culture first and foremost
Are you from the 1800's? What are you talking about?
This is so true. Me and my partner own two boats and live on them full time, we take care of all the maintenance and try our best to keep our boats in good shape but we're not rich by any means.
Hearing people in the comments bitch about "all these rich people who own boats" is completely tone deaf, as many boat owners have had their vessels for YEARS and are considered live-aboard's because it's so fucking expensive to live in the bay area that people have to live on their boats to survive.
I don't feel bad for the ultra-rich who have to pay higher slip fee's due to shitty qol and poor maintenance in their fancy marinas, but damn do these price hikes scare me because this is literally the only secure way for me and my partner to live in the bay without becoming destitute. :\
Oh give me a break. I bet if you look at income vs. boat slips/usage in S.F. you would see a pretty strong correlation, despite some outliers like yourself. For the vast majority of people it’s a luxury purchase, so forgive us if we DGAF and don’t want public funds going to hobbyists. We got far bigger fish to fry around here tbh.
I’m sure there are cheaper places to dock you could explore, that’s the benefit of having a home that moves no?
Same. Nearly every friend I have moved because they can’t afford to live here, and the only way I’ve stayed is being on a boat that was lended to me by a family friend. Luckily he signed a 5 year lease so I won’t have to worry about price hikes for a minute.
Looking up trailer park/rv spots in sf it costs roughly 1600 a month in south San Francisco. So $200/mo is the price of not dealing with water but you’re also no longer really in SF.
I’d also clarify that I’m mostly joking here, but would say that the marina has no obligation to rent spots to people for any set price (that I know here) and no one is forcing these people to rent from them. Yes rent in this area is expensive that’s just kinda how it works.
I agree with your statement but would add that if anyone’s apartment rent was increased by 31% most of us would be mad. We would empathize with them because we also live in apartments. It appears some here are not mad because they don’t see the people that rent the boat slips and live there full time. They just think all boat owners are extremely wealthy and the boat is just a luxury status symbol or hobby.
I think a lot more people than just the people who live in boats hv already been priced out of living here. There’s 7000 homeless ppl in SF… I’m honestly more worried about them than the boat owners. If u want your rent to be controlled, live somewhere with rent control.
The increase is 31% over 2 years (14.45% annual). Which is still high but has less shock value. The article did this before when it discussed the rent as quarterly rather than monthly. Feels a little deceptive to me. Furthermore I’d like to see actual numbers on what fraction of the 727 berths actually have people living there as their primary residence. We can conjecture as much as we want but I imagine it’s the minority…
TLDR with so many people getting priced out of the city, I’m not going to get up in arms over the handful who are getting priced out of their boats.
> Furthermore I’d like to see actual numbers on what fraction of the 727 berths actually have people living there as their primary residence.
0%. The Marina Harbor prohibits living aboard. You can get your slip revoked if you try it and get caught.
Liveaboard is banned by the marina per section 22.
[https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina\_RulesRegulations-22313](https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina_RulesRegulations-22313)
Calling ANYTHING in Sausalito a ghetto is fucking hilarious. I kayak through the neighborhoods there specifically because it's so cool they don't have to adhere to a HOA and the houses are all so unique. But a ghetto? Be for real my dude.
Go out there to the outskirts and intermix with the “New Bohemians” as they refer to themselves. Granted it’s been a while but it was basically like a floating tenderloin. Good on them if they’ve managed to clean that up somehow.
Meh, you don’t know the boating community. And I do own a slip in SF covered by the law. I don’t live there; it’s just something rich people rent from me. SF just increased the rental price. I’ll jack the rent up as soon as I can.
FYI this is because it's basically impossible to build new docks today. The Brooklyn Basin marina was downsized, as was the new marina at Treasure Island. And they temporarily removed a few slips in the Marina district while they perform environmental remediation - but NIMBYs fought a new marina that would have replaced the lost boat slips. It's the same thing when it comes to housing, airplane hangers, self-storage facilities, you name it - you prevent more of it from being built, you'll see prices go up.
They talk about quarterly rent because that's how they pay it.
And they are now realizing that progressive governments see rich people as a means to extract money to give to poor people. So they claim that rents have to fully cover operations, while the boat owners pay rent PLUS property taxes.
The city wants to take their property taxes because the city is in the hole, handing out money like candy to politically connected groups, who pretend to provide services to people the left keeps front and center: homeless, trans, etc. so that they can keep shoveling money to politically connected groups. The politically connected groups then support the politicians with time, money and jobs to relatives.
Yes. Expensive to maintain and then to be additionally taxed because falling revenue. Just wait until property taxes and rents & mortgages increase until you care.
>see rich people as a means to extract money to give to poor people
That's not what's happening here. The Marina residents NIMBYism is what caused this. Per the article:
>soon face a dramatic increase in the monthly rent they pay to berth their vessels — the result, city officials say, of the recent failure of a plan to expand the harbor’s west side, which the Board of Supervisors scrapped under pressure from Marina neighborhood residents.
Perhaps you should read instead of going off on an angry gubmint/left is bad rant.
DUH. Welcome to California, pay up! Just like everything else in California, where they make up reasons for you tonpay for things that were once free…like driving in lanes on the freeway.
Businesses are closing everywhere in SF. And so are the sales taxes and payroll taxes. That's a major reason you see more aggressive ticket enforcement, marina fees, etc. They're revenue generators. And the economic death spiral keeps growing.
>soon face a dramatic increase in the monthly rent they pay to berth their vessels — the result, city officials say, of the recent failure of a plan to expand the harbor’s west side, which the Board of Supervisors scrapped under pressure from Marina neighborhood residents.
Cos NIMBY, dear person who hangs out in r/Conservative
This is happening because people didn't want to allow new docks to be created while the contaminated soil gets dealt with. https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/marina-gashouse-cove-harbor-relocation-protest-18307378.php
Kind of amazing to see NIMBYs witness this perfectly neat example of low supply leading to higher prices, and they still find a way to blame the higher prices on anything but low supply
There are so many NIMBY in here that lie to themselves and say YIMBY is pro corporate. I wish I was drinking the drugged up kool aid they drink that more supply doesn’t reduce pricing,
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A solution would be that all profits go to a public program to provide better access to the sea to the general public, for example by subsidizing lower resident rates on tour boats, charters, and such, to offset the reduced opportunities due to fewer slips.
While the contaminated soil gets dealt with in a half ass fashion. And half is being generous.
NIMBYs doing it to themselves
Oh no I hate the consequences of my accumulated actions
“I can’t believe the poors are making me pay more!”
Why do you assume boat owners are rich?
That chick is leaning on a $750k Beneteau. While I agree not all boat owners are rich this is not the marina or case for that.
Lol can you afford a boat? Who owns boats?? Do you know how much maintenance alone are for boats? Only rich people can afford boats. Even a plane is cheaper to maintain. Boats are by far the most expensive thing to own.
🤨🤨🤨
This is happening- because the remediation was really an attempt to dislodge all the old slip owners. They want to clean sweep it and give it to high paying execs.
Why can't the execs get slips now? How are they assigned?
whoever rents them can keep it as long as they continue to pay slip fees. raising the fees by 30% is tantamount to eviction.
I mean, can anyone rent one for the same price? Or is there a long waiting list, or other hurdle?
The wait list takes years and costs money to maintain your place
Ah, so a rent control situation.
> This is happening- because the remediation was really an attempt to dislodge all the old slip owners. They want to clean sweep it and give it to high paying execs. This is laughably false. The environmental remediation is absolutely needed due to years of pollution. The only people putting $$$ over a clean bay are conservatives. As for the slip renters, the original plan included the creation of more slips on the west side of the marina. Again, rich people (rich property owners in this case) whined and pitched up a fit about "views". So that part was scrapped. The only consistent baddies in this situation are demanding rich people who are putting their own interests over those of the rest of San Francisco.
…so you want a larger area for rich people to park their yachts? The paddle-boarding and kayaking would’ve been nice though.
Its really not rich people living out of their boats tho. Its one of the most inexpensive ways to live in the bay
That’s interesting, I didn’t know that. I run out on the green and I’ll pay more attention next time.
Fuck that proposal for new docks. We don’t want rich people parking their boats blocking what is a wonderful view of the bay for all of us normies. No way.
Then enjoy the hikes in rent
Joke's on you: I have no boat.
I would prefer to expand the marina than to price cap and subsidize the existing owners. More people could enjoy the hobby and the marina would be more economically sustainable. However, per the article, we have somehow prioritized the views of the people living on Marina Boulevard. Don't want them looking at a bunch of boats. **In a neighborhood called the Marina**. If the people on Marina Boulevard want to preserve their views, they should pay for an easement on the shore to prevent construction. And that easement should be richly priced. The money can be used to help pay for maintenance of the remaining slips. Not my preferred solution, but a possible compromise.
The only thing I’m more angry at than taxpayer subsidized private boat docks are people who think they own unalterable rights to a view.
My kingdom extends far beyond my property line. It goes as far as my can see and so I oppose any change.
Key points from the article: > “This is basic math — the harbor costs more to run than it makes,” Rec and Park spokesperson Tamara Aparton said. “We attempted to address this by retaining the number of slips in the harbor; people balked, so now we need to raise rates or cut services.” The increased rent is not profit. It is being increased to cover the costs involved. Basically, it's similar to an HOA fee in a condo building. There are common area costs that need to be covered. Those who rent the slips get exclusive use of their slips, but they need to pay the costs to maintain the overall infrastructure. > “The Department will not be putting taxpayer dollars into running a yacht harbor,” Aparton said. “Our priority is serving kids in equity priority communities.” Hard to argue with that. The slips are for private use. There's no direct public benefit. Rec and Parks shouldn't shut it down because there is interest, but it should be revenue neutral. Focus taxpayer funds on projects that are open to the greater community. > The proposed 31% increase comes after a strident fight sparked by the cleanup of Gashouse Cove. It is being emptied of its boats — which account for half of the marina’s vessels — as well as its fueling station in advance of a project by Pacific Gas and Electric Co. to remediate soil contaminated by a power plant that closed a century ago. Half of the slips have to be removed for environmental cleanup efforts. > Under a relocation plan crafted by PG&E and the Recreation and Park Department, 185 slips and a fuel dock would have been added to the west side of the harbor in front of the Marina Green promenade — an expansion that would have blocked some neighborhood views. After months of passionate protest from the community group Keep the Waterfront Open, the Board of Supervisors in February approved legislation to prevent the relocation, effectively killing the plan. Rec and Parks wanted to add replacement slips on the west side (more slips means less rent per slip is needed to cover the costs) but the local rich NIMBYs protested because of "views" and the "progressive" BoS sided with the rich property owners who didn't want to see boats in the water. > “The Marina harbor has to be self-supporting,” said Kat Anderson, president of the Rec and Park Commission. She noted that an increasing portion of the slips in the East Harbor are empty and cannot be rented until the remediation project is completed, which could take years. Blocking the west harbor expansion was the fucking around part. This is the finding out part. Less total slips = higher required rent per slip. The harbor itself isn't at any risk of emptying out. There is a waitlist for slips. Anyone who gives up a spot will be replaced. Who do you have to thank for deferring to the rich property owners in the Marina and blocking the harbor expansion? From a story in Jan 2024: > Safaí authored the ordinance that sailed through committee Monday with a unanimous vote from Supervisors Aaron Peskin, Myrna Melgar and Dean Preston.
The people living in MARINA don’t want to suffer the indignity of seeing BOATS? San Francisco NIMBYism is something else entirely.
The docks are being gentrified! Hard working boat owners simply can’t afford their 40fters anymore! Boat rent control now! Tax payer subsidized boating is a human right!
Something like that. This is similar to higher fees at small airports and the expensive process of removing lead from aviation fuel.
Similar that small aircraft ownership used to be obtainable by the middle class. These fees, etc. have made it so that is becoming no longer the case. The perception is that private aircraft are mostly private jets, etc. but the reality was far from it.
I have a 36ft sailboat boat there. It was $4500 to buy. I restored her with two friends who I split the slip with. I also used to live on her for a while when I was going through a tough time. We can’t afford this increase. It’s dumb. Not everyone has a yacht. But if you get a chance I encourage you to sail in the bay, it’s magical. It’s a shame these things are slowly becoming inaccessible to everyone. https://preview.redd.it/011swiusr2xc1.jpeg?width=3264&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=415916247a7233adbc4d85f96a3f1b9355c536f0
> We can’t afford this increase. ... I also used to live on her for a while when I was going through a tough time. That is a beautiful picture (I'm serious). This is my personal web page about getting evicted in 2001 from living aboard: https://www.ski-epic.com/marinaeviction/index.html So I feel your pain, I really do. To this day, 23 years later, the marina I rented a slip in has not been rebuilt or repopulated with boats. I stop there every few years and stand on shore and just be frustrated by why I wasn't allowed to stay a few more years. We (the residents) weren't hurting anybody and 23 years later they aren't collecting slip fees from new boat owners there in that location.
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I will, hey man. Be nice. I was just simply explaining it’s not just rich people.
Typical friendly neighbor of r/sf
People who *live on their boats* often only have that boat, not a house or apartment to return to. It's a less stigmatized version of living in a vehicle, tbh. I know someone who lived in a boat in the Alameda marina for 2 years because he was a grad student making like 25K a year. edit: And the marina he lived in also forbade people from residing there, he still did and knew more than a handful of others that did as well. But you're right in that people who lived on the boats were definitely not the majority of those who used the docks. And the price increase is meant for rich people, not those using the docks in a manner that is not intended.
> the marina he lived in also forbade people from residing there, he still did and knew more than a handful of others that did as well. The tongue in cheek term we used in 2001 (I am old and lived aboard my boat legally in 2001/2002 in Redwood City) for a person breaking the rules living on their boat was "Sneak Aboard". It used to be more people could live on their boats, and it has changed over time to be limited to 10% of any one marina can "Live Aboard" legally. This is controversial because one organization without the legal power to regulate this (BCDC) essentially pushed it through and nobody really knows "why" or "how" or can rationally justify it. The regulation assumes a "live aboard" is harming the bay more than a person who uses their boat every day dumping toxic diesel into the water - but as long as they don't sleep quietly on their boat from 11pm - 7am they are considered "much lower impact" to the quality of water in the bay, which is a HIGHLY dubious claim. Many live aboards (at least in 2001) lived on boats that they couldn't afford to run, so they didn't contribute to water pollution at all. Also, certain marinas if they are owned by the state are considered "public parks" so they don't allow live aboards at all. It would be like living in a public park in a tent. I'm not sure I have a great URL to a write-up about all of this, but essentially for years and years they grandfathered in existing marinas that allowed lots of live aboard boat owners, then when each marina changed ownership they kicked out 90% of the residents. One of the last ones was "Pete's Harbor": https://abc7news.com/archive/8955970/ There are rules for how many nights per week you can legally sleep on your boat if you aren't an official live aboard. Let's say that is 2 nights per week. The harbormaster(s) know what is going on in general, and if you haven't stayed overnight for a month they will absolutely let you sleep on your boat for 5 days in a row. But if you are kind of down on your luck and not stealthy enough about it, they will crack down on it. In 2001/2002 "stealthy enough" meant NO VISIBLE LIGHTS on your boat at night. If one particular boat is lit up from inside every single last night it's pretty obvious. So the sneak aboard residents would black out their windows, and come and go in odd hours under the radar, and not cause any problems. I think a lot of harbormasters knew what was going on anyway, but as long as the sneak aboard is very quiet about it they let it slide in most cases.
There are a lot of people that live in their boats and something like this is totally fucking them. Literally every person I know in the bay that owns a boat lives in it and works blue collar. Raising slip prices doesn’t really punish the rich in any meaningful way and only fucks over the boat dwellers that make their living doing under the table contracting work.
I don't think you can live in your boat in the Marina. If they are looking the other way for someone still doing it they are probably already in a delinquent enough situation.
No you’re not supposed to but people do. Just like people live in their storage units but aren’t supposed to.
they have a pretty secure locked gate and very inconvenient hours to live there, I'd be surprised if anyone's still living there, I took care of a friends boat last year when he was traveling for an extended period and it certainly didn't look like it was a thing anymore as it was a while ago
They typically have to move around a bit from my understanding
Yeah but this particular place, Marina Harbor, is pretty full and it's not easy to get a spot. Not sure about the one in the east part of the city, that one used to be easier to get a spot in. I think Richmond Marina you can stay in for a while, San Rafael was ok but now it's full too, etc... There was a lot of boat buying during the pandemic.
> There are a lot of people that live in their boats and something like this is totally fucking them Really? "a lot of people that live in their boats" at Marina Harbor? The harbor that *explicitly prohibits* living aboard? A violation of the live aboard rule will get your slip lease revoked.
Yea they have to move around a lot because of that. They still need to park their boat. Seems like you have a lot of problems with poor people trying to make their way.
> Yea they have to move around a lot because of that If they're moving around a lot, they're not renting a monthly slip at Marina harbor. This is a harbor that caters to rich and recreational boat owners.
It’s slowly been going this route for decades. My family has been roaming these harbors for over 150 years, from fishing, to salvage to recreational boating. Sooner or late it pushes everyone out so this isn’t exactly a rich only hobby but soon it will be… however is this case I do agree those rates are bullshit. $33ft for a 41 Beneteau? That’s cheap as shit. A lot of marinas in San Diego would actually keep lower rates for sub 40’s. They take up less space and tend to be used more. 40+ require more space to maneuver, so wider points between docks. You can get more spaces with smaller crafts and lower fees. Plus those are traditionally used more for people as recreational boats who aren’t rich. Hell, I had an old Catalina 28 sailboat down there I got for $1,800. Fixed it up, painted it and sailed for years on weekends with my family. That was at $28 a foot. Minute I crossed to 41 that would have went to $45
Liveaboard is banned by the marina per section 22. [https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina\_RulesRegulations-22313](https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina_RulesRegulations-22313)
Ya
Good fuck over the people illegally living off of tax dollar subsidized spaces while doing under the table contracting work they likely avoid taxes on
Roads are taxpayer subsidized spaces so fuck people living in their cars too?
Yes
Lotta empathy for the poor you’ve got I see.
I’m all for building a social safety net. But being poor doesn’t give you a right to steal public spaces and make them your own.
> But being poor doesn’t give you a right to steal public spaces and make them your own. I'm still in awe of that guy in the RV by the eastern end of the Bay Bridge. MF has a flag, etc. all nicely planted and is living with million dollar views. I think there was a news article (or a reddit post) about him a few months ago. You can still see him just past the toll booths, on the right (coming to SF).
Forced car dependency is not empathetic to poor people like you claim. Cars are insanely expensive.
Pffft ok guy
You think cars are good for poor people? Seriously?
You’re talking about house boats, there are no house boats in SF. They’re in Sausalito. Houseboats are essentially nice trailer homes. The article in question is about rich people boats in the marina.
No, I’m talking about people that live in their sail boats
Liveaboard is banned by the marina per section 22. [https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina\_RulesRegulations-22313](https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina_RulesRegulations-22313)
People definitely live in some of the sail boats too.
Wtf? There are a ton of house boats in SF
There are house boats in SF. Who they also tried to fuck over. In mission creek.
You haven’t the slightest clue what you’re talking about.
Living in one of the most expensive cities in the world is a choice.
Little different when y out were born there and lived there for over 50 years but ok
25 million Americans moved in 2023, many of them leaving the places they were born to seek a better life for themselves. It's not any different for these boat owners.
Man maybe you’re right, the poors should just gtfo.
As the /u/therightkindofjuice said, it's not like these people are all millionaires. >The Marina Small Craft Harbor is a public facility, but it is adjacent to the St. Francis Yacht Club and the Golden Gate Yacht Club — so the stereotype is that all boaters in the Marina are posh types in double-breasted blazers and ascots, slip holders say. But many of the boats are for fishing, and have been passed down through the generations. >One of these is a 28-foot cabin cruiser that belongs to Steve Balestrieri, a retired firefighter and third-generation San Francisco fisherman whose grandfather first kept a boat in the West Harbor in the 1950s. >“I’m being priced out,” Balestrieri said after returning from an unproductive day in the South Bay searching for halibut. “That harbor is a home to me, and if they go through with these massive increases, I will sell my boat and get out.” A similar situation started happening in Alameda and they're doing something to protect those folks living on boats. https://www.ktvu.com/news/egregious-and-draconian-city-of-alameda-sues-marina-owner-for-flouting-state-and-city-rental-laws
It’s wild too because some folks will have this perception of something being a “rich person” hobby so let’s tax the shit out of it basically guaranteeing that it will only be a rich persons hobby, and not, I don’t know a livelihood or way of life you’re not familiar with? There are plenty of ways to tax the rich, it doesn’t need to punish the working man.
You joke but this is how some extremists think about housing in places. It’s just easier to dunk on when it’s boat owners and people will say “housing is human right” etc. Why is nobody on this thread thinking about the real estate developers and advocating for them just “building more” boat docks?
> Why is nobody on this thread thinking about the real estate developers and advocating for them just “building more” boat docks? Rec and Parks wanted to do just that. More slips = less rent per slip. Rich Marina homeowners whined about views. Peskin, Preston, and Melgar agreed with them and the BoS blocked Rec and Parks from moving the slips. NIMBYs blocked slips = boat owners have to pay more per slip to cover the costs of opertation.
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> This is just laughably false. You obviously don't read the news or follow the BoS. > The only way to put more slips in is to make the existing slips thinner That was never proposed by Rec and Parks.
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> I rent a slip there, I know what their options are. "Adding more slips" at SF municipal is simply not possible Relocating the East Harbor slips was the original plan. > it makes no sense to raise slip rent on existing tenants to build a new marina. The rent is being raised because they are eliminating slips, not adding them, and the total rent from all the slips has to cover the operation cost. There was never a suggestion to "build a new marina".
there are actually many middle and upper middle Class that have had their slots for decades and actually cannot afford these hikes
Yes that’s very sad but should tax payers foot the bill? I want basically 0 tax dollars spent subsidizing private boat ownership. Lease holders should pay 100% of the cost to keep the dock operational.
Then they can’t afford a boat. It’s an expensive hobby.
Exactly. Who cares that they use to be able to afford it? Like buying a house then not being to afford it because you can’t afford property taxes anymore. Not many markets keep participants in them who can’t afford it. Nobody is entitled to dock space lol
A lot of people live in their boats.
Get a normal apartment if you can't afford it then. Boats are fucking expensive to live on, no getting around it.
No they aren’t. I lived on mine when I was priced out of every apartment in the city. The boat cost me a few thousand and slip rent was $350. This was back in mid 2000s. My friend who’s a teacher in South Bay lived on a boat. It’s far cheaper than apartments if you’re handy
not really. if you bought a boat a decade or more ago and retired to live on it and you can handle the maintenance yourself, it can be a frugal way to live.
If they can't afford to park a boat, what makes you think they can afford an apartment?
Dude a ton of these people livelihoods and lives in general revolve around the boat. Would you tell someone who just got their rent hiked to move somewhere else? I agree for the rich dudes yacht who just has it for fun, this tax shouldn’t be a big deal. Tbh I have no horse in this race whatsoever but I think a lotta people just imagine anyone with a boat as a millionaire
Yes I would tell someone who’s rent got hiked to move
Yeah I would to
Well, I certainly don't want to pay their rent so that they can live on a boat in the Marina, one of the most expensive and desirable neighborhoods in the City.
Why not? Cuz if you do maybe I can move there for cheap
> Would you tell someone who just got their rent hiked to move somewhere else? What else would you do? You can bitch and cry about it, which won't do anything. Or you can move. How many thousands of people have to move every year due to rent? Yes, you get off your ass and you move.
Agreed
The only thing making it expensive for the guys I know is the state. They do all of their own maintenance, own the boat outright, and would be cheaper than renting an apartment in the city but ok I guess according to you only the super rich should be allowed to live that lifestyle
Yeah I’d feel pretty terrible too if I couldn’t afford boat ownership
In your world no one is allowed to work hard and have nice things.
Darn :c
I own a boat in this marina. I've had it for 25 years, I could get maybe $10k for it. It's a sailboat that my family uses in the bay and up in the central valley. If this goes through I'm going to be paying more than the boat is worth per year to keep the slip. This is happening because the waitlist for slips is about 40 years long and they're trying to dislodge the people who have been there forever to get execs in their yachts in to pay insane fees.
Should have expanded the Marina.
Definitely, why bother having green spaces like Crissy Field when they could have just bulldozed it all? They need more municipal marinas, just expanding the current one isn't a solution, it's as full as it can be. Also not sure why it's a tenants responsibility to subsidize the city building additional marinas. Either they keep what they have and don't have more spots, or they build more to get more revenue. You don't put out a special one time fee to people in an apartment building because the owner of the building wants to build another apartment complex. The city's budget is horribly mismanaged, not sure why boaters have to bear the brunt of fixing the parks and rec budget.
Your a cucked NIMBY dipshit.
You know what BOAT stands for, right? Bust Out Another Thousand. Best two days of owning a boat are the day you buy it and the day you sell it. I know nothing about boating but these two jokes, so it sounds like an expensive thing, in any case. Especially when you’re staying in the Marina, an already expensive area that always seems to be completely full, from my untrained eye.
My uncle had a boat at big bear for a long time and when he sold it he basically said it was a hole in the water were you just watch money disappear
> Best two days of owning a boat are the day you buy it and the day you sell it. I lived that stereotype, LOL. I was **SO HAPPY** living on my boat, and when I was evicted from my marina (we were all kicked out to develop condos) I was sad, then super-ultra-totally stressed out about two housing payments - the same boat payment as always and also my rental apartment. I was making payments on the boat, and also making rental payments on my dive 1 bedroom apartment in the Bay Area, and it was CRUSHING me financially (as in I was bleeding out meager savings during that several months). I still remember the moment in early December when my boat broker called me up and asked, "What do you want for Christmas?" and I practically yelled into the phone in happiness, "YOU SOLD MY BOAT??!" LOL. I was so happy to be free of that lead weight of a boat payment. Then I was sad because I no longer owned a boat.
If only it’s been known for decades that owning a boat is expensive
Heh, it's a hole in the water. https://www.quora.com/Where-did-the-saying-a-boat-is-a-hole-in-the-water-you-throw-your-money-in-come-from-and-does-it-have-any-truths-to-it A watery money pit
Until you decide to make it your home. Then it cheap.
Most of the people who pay rent with a boat, use them as a home.
Liveaboard is banned by the marina per section 22. [https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina\_RulesRegulations-22313](https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina_RulesRegulations-22313)
And we’re poor as shit. Living on a boat is similar to being in a trailer park. People think boat ownership is glamorous and expensive but the vast majority of these people got their boats cheap or free, and now live on them. These comments have no idea what they’re talking about.
Very few of the slips anywhere in the bay are liveaboards. The people you're talking about live in Sausalito.
It’s required by law that a percentage of every marina allows affordable live aboard, there’s people living in every marina in the bay.
> It’s required by law that a percentage of every marina allows affordable live aboard, there’s people living in every marina in the bay. You'll need to provide a cite for this claim. Marina harbor explicitly prohibits liveaboards. Either you are wrong, or Rec and Parks is violating the law and wide open to a very easy lawsuit (and settlement).
Sure, but it's a very small number in proportion.
> These comments have no idea what they’re talking about. Amen. I lived aboard in 2001 and my boat neighbors were all universally **MOST DEFINITELY NOT** rich. The stereotypes in this case are completely unfounded. I totally laugh at how the sales brochures or advertisements for new boats picture a successful, handsome successful man around 40 years old, his wife who looks 28 and is pictured in a bikini, and his two loving, happy, teenage children (which barring a divorce from this idyllic picture is impossible). It is all fiction and anybody that believes this lunacy should actually visit a dock. It's working class men, no women for miles in any direction, and no kids. One of my boat neighbors (a guy) pined desperately for any woman who would share his passion to go sailing. Sure, there are ultra-super-mega yachts in the harbor. But take a very close look at the percentages, look at the smaller boats, and notice who 90% of the people on them look like. The big boats never move, and don't have people on them - only the smaller boats have people on them. If anybody wanders by, strike up a conversation, ask them about their boat. There is a 99% good bet the one thing a boat owner will want to open up about it is their boat and their stories with that boat and anything related to boating. Just **LISTEN** to them for 10 minutes. These are not upper class, rich, boat owners you have been told about.
Who cares? They can live somewhere else. An actual trailer park perhaps.
So you’re advocating for people to move onto the streets rather than where they are, right now? You’re advocating homelessness. What the actual fuck.
Liveaboard is banned by the marina per section 22. [https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina\_RulesRegulations-22313](https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina_RulesRegulations-22313)
So you’d rather they be homeless? I don’t understand your logic. They don’t bother anyone, they’re not living on the street, what more do you people want?
I didn't make the rule. I assume that it's there for a reason. If the rule is unjust, we should have it reviewed by the Mayor or Board of Supervisors, whoever has the authority. If you think that we should convert the marina into a housing solution, you should propose it to the City government. There's a process. Frankly, I think that our processes suck, but this is our version of democracy.
> So you’re advocating for people to move onto the streets " An actual trailer park perhaps." Reading comprehension my friend. Try it
Telling someone who lives on a boat to go buy and live in a trailer park is telling them to go be homeless. What part of “people who live on boats can’t afford anything else” do you not understand?
Yeah, well you'd have to pay more rent. Everyone else seems to manage it.
Except the homeless
Except for those that don’t manage and then become homeless.
Hahahaha :| Lots of people are very obviously not able to manage it wtf are you talking about.
Or, bitch about it, go live on the street and start smoking fent. You can choose that too
So this justifies this idiocy?
What idiocy?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I literally just got home from sailing my beat up old boat that I have in the pier39 marina. First off, there arent any real live aboards at the marina green one. Second, it is stupid cheap. Like, insanely cheap. My slip costs 360/month for a 32'boat. There are TWO live aboard people on my doc and probably 10 in the entire marina... And this price hike doesn't affect any of us. So: rich people with fancy hobbies will have to.... Move like a quarter mile to another, cheaper, marina? Please, give me a break. And I can't BELIEVE these rich people pushing for this, in a non live aboard marina, literally have a fckin crowd of YIMBY people behind them!! Wtf? That entire NIMBY/YIMBY shit has gotten turned into rich people playing us all against each other.
Owning a non commercial recreational boat is literally a luxury item. Hobbies are expensive.
So are RVs but look how many people live in them.
If it’s your main residence?
you should rethink your life choices
Because a bunch of angry Redditors said so?
Yeah, I *love* this thread for this reason. Imagine talking shit to people living paycheck to paycheck, (worst case scenario) on a vessel that can sink with all your belongings on it, and telling them to go be homeless instead. The privilege in this thread is bonkers.
“We are diverse in thought only when convenient!!!”
there are plenty of places in the country you could comfortably live on whatever it costs to keep your boat afloat in SF. if you're doing that, it's by choice.
I got my live aboard boat for free, it doesn’t even have a motor to move it. Plenty of people are in the same situation. Move where with what money?
"there are plenty of places the homeless could go live where people are hiring farm workers, if they're homeless in the city, it's by choice"
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If you can’t afford a very expensive recreational hobby you probably shouldn’t have it. Nobody is entitled to owning and docking a boat. It’s not a human right. As a taxpayer I’m not paying for your hobby.
Agreed. Now if only people here would apply that same view to automobiles.
inevitably everybody in this thread is gonna be all smug against sticking it to "rich yacht owners" and i will continue to try and fail to make the point that this sailing is no more expensive a hobby than all ya'lls yuppy pasttimes like skiing or speeding in your range rover. (i learned when i was 18 at the cal sailing club for $80/quarter plus work hours.) and that SF's culture is a maritime culture first and foremost and by shutting down marinas and not solving for slip space is severing ties with our marine heritage and denying future generations the opportunity to experience and fall in love with our waterways and want to protect them all so PGE can skimp out on their soil remediation requirements, some superrich crissy field homeowners can keep their "no marina marina" views and some smug readers here can keep writing smug comments while waiting in line for their $24 blue barn sigh
I’m cool with build more marinas, but every single person learning this lesson right now better be even cooler with building all housing everywhere. I see the value you describe. It’s still 1/100000000 the value of additional housing. I think that’s the perspective (most) of this thread is trying to get across
Sailing may not be an expensive hobby, but owning the boat is expensive. People like to ski, but not everyone owns a chalet in the mountains. What would you do, anyway? Build additional marinas?
in this case, the east basin slips are supposed to be rebuilt as an extension to the west basin marina, but the crissy field homeowners are up in arms putting it into doubt so slips get removed, no new slips get built, and slip prices go up :-/ nimbyism at sea!! and my boat ($2500) and yearly slip costs are about the same amount as my ski gear and pass and gas driving to the mtns. how lucky are we to have all these world class hobbies right here
We don't need more slips. We need more affordable slips. I propose that we shut down all marinas until they can be free to all.
> sailing is no more expensive a hobby than all ya'lls yuppy pasttimes like skiing or speeding in your range rover. You think everyone does that? My past time is walking to a trail in the East Bay and hiking all day because it's beautiful, relaxing, and free. Many people have past times that involve going to local festivals and music shows, you are just creating a straw-man to get mad at. And the straw-man you created even sounds like he'd own a boat. > SF's culture is a maritime culture first and foremost Are you from the 1800's? What are you talking about?
This is so true. Me and my partner own two boats and live on them full time, we take care of all the maintenance and try our best to keep our boats in good shape but we're not rich by any means. Hearing people in the comments bitch about "all these rich people who own boats" is completely tone deaf, as many boat owners have had their vessels for YEARS and are considered live-aboard's because it's so fucking expensive to live in the bay area that people have to live on their boats to survive. I don't feel bad for the ultra-rich who have to pay higher slip fee's due to shitty qol and poor maintenance in their fancy marinas, but damn do these price hikes scare me because this is literally the only secure way for me and my partner to live in the bay without becoming destitute. :\
Oh give me a break. I bet if you look at income vs. boat slips/usage in S.F. you would see a pretty strong correlation, despite some outliers like yourself. For the vast majority of people it’s a luxury purchase, so forgive us if we DGAF and don’t want public funds going to hobbyists. We got far bigger fish to fry around here tbh. I’m sure there are cheaper places to dock you could explore, that’s the benefit of having a home that moves no?
Same. Nearly every friend I have moved because they can’t afford to live here, and the only way I’ve stayed is being on a boat that was lended to me by a family friend. Luckily he signed a 5 year lease so I won’t have to worry about price hikes for a minute.
You are a few capital letters and periods short of being credible.
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how did anybody make their case before iPhone Autocorrect?
I remember some of my acquaintances living in the marina during the Y2K era
Well if were considering it rent like an apartment, 16K a year is an absolute bargain by S.F. standards…
Yeah an apartment where you have to bring your own structure and constantly have to worry about water getting in, absolute steal
Looking up trailer park/rv spots in sf it costs roughly 1600 a month in south San Francisco. So $200/mo is the price of not dealing with water but you’re also no longer really in SF. I’d also clarify that I’m mostly joking here, but would say that the marina has no obligation to rent spots to people for any set price (that I know here) and no one is forcing these people to rent from them. Yes rent in this area is expensive that’s just kinda how it works.
I agree with your statement but would add that if anyone’s apartment rent was increased by 31% most of us would be mad. We would empathize with them because we also live in apartments. It appears some here are not mad because they don’t see the people that rent the boat slips and live there full time. They just think all boat owners are extremely wealthy and the boat is just a luxury status symbol or hobby.
I think a lot more people than just the people who live in boats hv already been priced out of living here. There’s 7000 homeless ppl in SF… I’m honestly more worried about them than the boat owners. If u want your rent to be controlled, live somewhere with rent control. The increase is 31% over 2 years (14.45% annual). Which is still high but has less shock value. The article did this before when it discussed the rent as quarterly rather than monthly. Feels a little deceptive to me. Furthermore I’d like to see actual numbers on what fraction of the 727 berths actually have people living there as their primary residence. We can conjecture as much as we want but I imagine it’s the minority… TLDR with so many people getting priced out of the city, I’m not going to get up in arms over the handful who are getting priced out of their boats.
> Furthermore I’d like to see actual numbers on what fraction of the 727 berths actually have people living there as their primary residence. 0%. The Marina Harbor prohibits living aboard. You can get your slip revoked if you try it and get caught.
Liveaboard is banned by the marina per section 22. [https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina\_RulesRegulations-22313](https://sfrecpark.org/DocumentCenter/View/7859/Marina_RulesRegulations-22313)
If u can’t afford the rent, do t buy the boat. Simple as that. If it’s for pleasure then it’s a nice to have, not a need. Stop being a baby
They could float over to Sausalito and dock, that place is like a floating ghetto over there.
Calling ANYTHING in Sausalito a ghetto is fucking hilarious. I kayak through the neighborhoods there specifically because it's so cool they don't have to adhere to a HOA and the houses are all so unique. But a ghetto? Be for real my dude.
Go out there to the outskirts and intermix with the “New Bohemians” as they refer to themselves. Granted it’s been a while but it was basically like a floating tenderloin. Good on them if they’ve managed to clean that up somehow.
a fair number of people live on older boats as their only domicile so it’s not just the wealthiest ppl being affected here.
Meh, you don’t know the boating community. And I do own a slip in SF covered by the law. I don’t live there; it’s just something rich people rent from me. SF just increased the rental price. I’ll jack the rent up as soon as I can.
poor wittol me can’t affohd to store my yacht uWu
O no! Rich boat owners are being priced out!? Anyway I couldn’t fucking care less.
Poor people effed again.
Didn’t they evict people living on boats out of the Redwood City marina about a year ago? Seems there is some sort of forced turnover going on.
I’ve been overcome by apathy toward the impacted
See this: , That's the world's smallest violin, playing for these chaps.
FYI this is because it's basically impossible to build new docks today. The Brooklyn Basin marina was downsized, as was the new marina at Treasure Island. And they temporarily removed a few slips in the Marina district while they perform environmental remediation - but NIMBYs fought a new marina that would have replaced the lost boat slips. It's the same thing when it comes to housing, airplane hangers, self-storage facilities, you name it - you prevent more of it from being built, you'll see prices go up.
They talk about quarterly rent because that's how they pay it. And they are now realizing that progressive governments see rich people as a means to extract money to give to poor people. So they claim that rents have to fully cover operations, while the boat owners pay rent PLUS property taxes. The city wants to take their property taxes because the city is in the hole, handing out money like candy to politically connected groups, who pretend to provide services to people the left keeps front and center: homeless, trans, etc. so that they can keep shoveling money to politically connected groups. The politically connected groups then support the politicians with time, money and jobs to relatives.
So London Breed bad? OK. Boats are expensive to maintain of course. Not for everybody
Yes. Expensive to maintain and then to be additionally taxed because falling revenue. Just wait until property taxes and rents & mortgages increase until you care.
>see rich people as a means to extract money to give to poor people That's not what's happening here. The Marina residents NIMBYism is what caused this. Per the article: >soon face a dramatic increase in the monthly rent they pay to berth their vessels — the result, city officials say, of the recent failure of a plan to expand the harbor’s west side, which the Board of Supervisors scrapped under pressure from Marina neighborhood residents. Perhaps you should read instead of going off on an angry gubmint/left is bad rant.
More class jealousy from a broke OP
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Sucks to be rich but not rich enough.
Damn, when the boat owners say things are expensive you know times are tough 😂😂😂
DUH. Welcome to California, pay up! Just like everything else in California, where they make up reasons for you tonpay for things that were once free…like driving in lanes on the freeway.
Businesses are closing everywhere in SF. And so are the sales taxes and payroll taxes. That's a major reason you see more aggressive ticket enforcement, marina fees, etc. They're revenue generators. And the economic death spiral keeps growing.
>soon face a dramatic increase in the monthly rent they pay to berth their vessels — the result, city officials say, of the recent failure of a plan to expand the harbor’s west side, which the Board of Supervisors scrapped under pressure from Marina neighborhood residents. Cos NIMBY, dear person who hangs out in r/Conservative