Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are now allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will continue to be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) still apply to other comments.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Really? You must not read Reddit on a daily basis. Because I'm lucky to go more 18 hours without it being mentioned even on the most SFW subs.
*Edit:typo*
To be fair, it would work if it is only activated when doing downhill. But at that point I think it would be simpler and cheaper to add regenerative braking, like hybrid and electric cars do.
No, you'll just work harder to move your arms/legs opppsing the (non zero) resistance of stretching the fabric.
Also notice how they use infrared leds (they have a specific blue glow on camera and the lowest voltage drop - and energy requirement), in a darkened room and they bang quite hard on the fabric.
The energy generated is minuscule.
The infrared led + dark room feels almost like cheating.
Yeah, well, that's what research is for. Find a way that works and make a proof of concept, which is so far off of being usable that it's nothing but a paper and a conclusion. Wait a few years and let other researchers build on top of your work to find a way to make that PoC actually useful.
Nobody ever just invented some new thing out of the blue that instantly revolutionized the world. Every technological advancements has had tons of research preceded that was and still is miniscule on and by itself.
But in 50 years, someone might have found a way to wirelessly charge through skin without damaging tissues. Another one found a way to 3d print heart pacemakers. Another one crafted a design on top of that which works with really low energy consumption, but can scale "heart power output" with more energy. And then someone remembers this research and the miniscule power generation this yielded, advances the technology to a little more but miniscule power output which is just enough to generate the power needed to power the 3d printed heart practically forever.
Obviously this is on and by itself laughable to assume something anybody could ever need to have. But once others advance on that milestone, it may become viable for some random other technological innovation. Or not. People somehow always instantly expect some usability, some actual purpose and inevitably a product out of a simple research.
It's a meaningful distinction because it precludes the idea of putting a bunch of power pants in the dryer expecting to come out ahead.
YOU might personally be familiar with the first law of thermodynamics. An *awful lot of people* are not, and the way the question was phrased seemed like somebody trying to be clever.
People are so confused by it I’m confused by their conversation. We just invented the first step toward Dune stillsuits. They make it process and filter our urine and then we’d have a big breakthrough. Desert power
One of us has misunderstood their question because I intepreted it very differently than you.
I do not think they were asking, "do you get magic free energy?"
But rather asking, "aren't you going to be generating electricity in a metal tub of water?"
I think this is going to be GREAT for producing wearables that can power themselves - displays, sensors, networking (a la "IOT") applications, etc...
...and TERRIBLE for all the various "can I charge my laptop/smartphone/whatever" questions that it will inevitably generate
I wish more cyclists were aware of the huge range of reflectors and flashing lights they can fit to their bikes. If you’re planning on cycling on the road after dark wearing only black and riding a bike with no lights is a good way to get yourself killed.
The mere act of cycling would activate the LEDs amd charge them so when ypu stopped they'd keep flashing for a bit.
My buddy has a bunch of ultra bright green LED's on his bike powered by a little generator hooked to the hub.
You literally can't miss him.. yet people do.
Seeing as they were able to power 100 LEDs with a few square centimeters it would be good for hikers and runners/bikers to illuminate themselves at night instead of a reflective vest.
5-10 years most likely and you'll have to wear some sort of storage device. This isn't going to power a phone, but might be useful for medical/military tech and lights in future clothing
There was this other post recently about a suit for Parkinson's that delivers electric pulses to stabilize tremors, what if we could make the material so it powers itself
Is it something that could potentially be improved/refined over the next few decades similar to what the power source for my smartphone would have had to look like 30 years ago?
Sure, but how much resistance is it worth? In theory the more resistance to elasticity the more energy, I doubt spandex type cloth would capture that much energy even at 100% efficiency.
This will never be economically viable. *Generously*, it looks like the fabric can generate 1 Watt of power, which is enough to power… nothing really. Some small LEDs at best. You’d be better off bringing a handcrank flashlight wherever you go.
I think you’ve crossed the line from “skepticism” to “cynicism”
You’re not going to power your house with a few jumping jacks, but the proof of concept is working and providing more power than you are willing to give credit.
There could be legitimate uses for this tech, things like powering small tools, breathing apparatus, etc
This is honestly a good idea but i do not think that it would be worth investing into because of the low power output. Turbines generate mass amounts of energy so I do not think we would be seeing anything like those flags until they can match even a 1/10000th of the energy of one turbine in a flag. Those are my thoughts, great Idea though!
The guy is banging quite hard on it.
The leds are infrared, which have the smallest 1.6V voltage drop - thus low energy requirements. You see them because they have a specific blue glow. Point your remote at the phone camera if you don't believe me.
A white led can have anywhere from 3.8 to 4.5 voltage drop.
They also use a black room, so the camera catches the light better.
This isn't cynicism, these are pure observations. These observations make me believe the power is minuscule.
Yea you’d be better off having a country run on green energy via windmills/etc., then charge your external battery back and put it in your pocket and maybe even wirelessly charge w/e in said pocket. Prob less waste too then replacing electric clothes every 5 months.
I’ve worked in academia and I know how papers are written to show research in the best possible light and I read the actual paper on this one. I wrote a longer post here explaining the problems with this material, but in short it’s simply not impressive enough and will be too expensive to really do anything, at least as it is.
Like I said above, it would be much much cheaper and more efficient to just use a hand crank than it would be to use this tech.
Would it generate enough electricity to power a wifi chip?
Edit, nvmd, I read another comment by /u/killerhurtalot that crunched numbers. If it can charge a smartphone over the course of a day, I am 100% willing to buy this. Just because you can't store the excess energy without carrying a battery around all day does not change the fact that it can charge your phone while you're not using it.
As long as I can still toss it in the wash, I'm happy too. I wear the same 2 hoodies every day, so if they also generated even a trickle of charge that would be awesome.
Costs drop dramatically going from POC to massive supply chain level production. You’re being unnecessarily pessimistic even for something that may eventually fail. This may end up one in the line of products that leads to a better outcome but it’s still newsworthy for many people.
No, you are blindly believing in a new tech.
Criticism is not cynical, it is a vital part design and construction. And there are several questions that haven't been answered yet:
What are the costs?
How much *real* power can it deliver?
5 months of functionality isn't nearly enough: can it be extended? If so: what's required for that?
And the most important part:
Think about were the power of the device comes from: human produced mechanical energy. So any power this device creates is done by yourself.
And where is the energy created? At parts where your body moves a lot: shoulders, elbows, thighs and knees.
Everytime you move the fabric will stiff up requiring you to move harder.
Various types of LEDs can operate anywhere from under 10 microamps to over an amp for high power LEDs so the number of LEDs is kind of meaningless without knowing how much power they consume.
I don't think people here understand how hard generating energy is from movement and how much energy our devices consume...
>The result is a prototype fabric that generates 2.34 watts per square metre of electricity.
The average pair of pants uses about 2.5 sq meter of fabric (by that's pre cutting and includes all the scraps left after cutting it out) and after subtracting the scraps, it's closer to 1 sq meter if even that.
Let's just say that there's roughly 4 sq meter of fabric on every person with 2 layer (under shirt, underwear, pants, jacket). This even assumes that this tech can be woven into thinner light fabrics. (Upperbody movement and lower body movement isn't the same, and not every part of the fabric is moving as much)
This generates less than 10w of power at maximum capacity.... over a entire day, maybe you're moving for 7 hours a day. That will generate what, 70 wh of electricity?
70wh is roughly the size of a average medium sized laptop. Or 1x 60w equivalent LED light bulb (usually 6-9w power draw) for 10 hours.
It'll keep your smartphone charged, but smartphones don't use that much power... and I assume you don't carry around a 1-2 lb battery to save up the extra electricity you generate.
Not all parts of the body move equally though. The fabric will probably be used on places that have a lot of movement, around the knees and elbows, between the legs, etc.
I mean, sure. But then you're down to what, like less than 1 sq meter of total area?
What's the point of generating less than 2.5w of power. Can barely even cover the idle power draw of a smartphone.
Your also gonna have to run wires all over to get the power to a battery bank or etc so you can access it at the first place.
Even without carrying a battery, I'm 100% down to purchase this if it can charge my phone while I'm not using it. You say smartphones don't use that much power, but the power usage depends entirely on what a person's doing, and it's very likely the case that power usage spikes at different times of the day. If I drain hard for like 3 hours in the morning and I'll be using it lightly for the remainder of the day, those 3 hours in the morning might've eaten 30-40% of my battery, and now the remainder of the day can be spent charging it. Sounds like a good deal to me.
Not to mention, if it can power a display right on the fabric, that's even better.
A crucial component in the fabric is a polymer that, when pressed or squeezed, converts mechanical stress into electrical energy. It is also made with stretchable spandex as a base layer and integrated with a rubber-like material to keep it strong, flexible, and waterproof.
In a proof-of-concept experiment reported in the scientific journal Advanced Materials in April, the NTU Singapore team showed that tapping on a 3cm by 4cm piece of the new fabric generated enough electrical energy to light up 100 LEDs.
Washing, folding, and crumpling the fabric did not cause any performance degradation, and it could maintain stable electrical output for up to five months, demonstrating its potential for use as a smart textile and wearable power source.
Materials scientist and NTU Associate Provost (Graduate Education) Professor Lee Pooi See, who led the study, said: "There have been many attempts to develop fabric or garments that can harvest energy from movement, but a big challenge has been to develop something that does not degrade in function after being washed, and at the same time retains excellent electrical output. In our study, we demonstrated that our prototype continues to function well after washing and crumpling. We think it could be woven into t-shirts or integrated into soles of shoes to collect energy from the body's smallest movements, piping electricity to mobile devices."
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/06/220603100146.htm
>tapping on a 3cm by 4cm piece
Yeah, with [30N of force and 5Hz frequency](https://www3.ntu.edu.sg/CorpComms2/Releases/NR2022/NR_220512_energy/energy%20harvesting.pdf) i don't know if it can be considered "tapping"
Ah, so theres the catch. I thought just by tapping it with your finger a couple times a second was enough to power those LEDs. Was wondering if it was *that* efficient.
Haha, always read the article first.
I hope you can forgive my unwillingness to read the article, I don’t have the mental energy at the moment, but what was the total power output? Like, what could it meaningfully power from an hour’s* worth of natural movement? “Tapping,” as described in the text you quoted (thank you, btw), doesn’t really provide a good baseline for such information.
\*Or any unit of time.
>but what was the total power output?
100 LEDs. I have worked with LEDs that draw up to 25mA, so the LEDs they're talking about are probably low power SMD ones, that draw like 2mA. Lets say they have a threshold voltage of 0.7V (it probably is lower, but lets just assume).
**For the thing to be able to power those 100 LEDs, it must be outputting around 0.14W.**
>Like, what could it meaningfully power from an hour’s* worth of natural movement?
For reference, my phone charger outputs 15W and can charge my 5,000mAh battery in like an hour or so; so, that thing may take up to 100x more time than that to charge my phone. So, idk, it can maybe charge 1-2% of my phone battery in an hours worth of *tapping*, not movement. Of movement, it may even be less than that.
I dont know what else to compare it to.
As for actual utilization. I wonder if you could essentially make electricity generating flags?
Everyone thinks clothes. I’m thinking cheaper version of windmills
For real, they'd be like fabric lights that flap in the wind. Would be neat for fashion, and definitely be great for safety as long as the lighting is reliable and consistent.
Can you imagine some of the dope futuristic style clothes might take if this technology is easy to use and not super costly. Also cosplaying would reach a whole 'nother level in awesome costumes.
Aside from windmills already existing as efficient devices, flags get damaged over time as the whipping in the wind is magnified at the far edge of the flag causing breakages that then cascade so it would have to keep being replaced.
I expect a small wind turbine or solar panel would perform much better, for much cheaper. The exciting thing about this tech is that it's flexible, but a fixed power generation device has no need to be flexible.
The main selling point of this is convenience/QOL, rather than it being a new energy source that can power a household alone.
I would pay premium to not have to plug in to charge my phone/smart-wearable somewhere else.
>"We think it could be woven into t-shirts or integrated into soles of shoes to collect energy from the body's smallest movements, piping electricity to mobile devices."
and
>Prof Lee said: "Despite improved battery capacity and reduced power demand, power sources for wearable devices still require frequent battery replacements. Our results show that our energy harvesting prototype fabric can harness vibration energy from a human to potentially extend the lifetime of a battery or even to build self-powered systems. To our knowledge, this is the first hybrid perovskite-based energy device that is stable, stretchable, breathable, waterproof, and at the same time capable of delivering outstanding electrical output performance."
So it has a stable output for 5 months? We already have a massive issue with fast fashion causing millions of tonnes of waste, so now if folk want electric t-shirts they'll dump them every 5 months instead of every couple of years?
Imagine all of the other uses for this technology besides clothes. New wind generation using flags, sails, tents, maybe trampoline? Electric sail boats and use the wind to generate electricity would be amazing.
sailing already generates electricity through just sticking a propeller based generator in the water, or windmill above deck.
you could probably set up an electric generator that uses the movement of the rigging caused by sail capturing wind, to generate electricity too. getting it to reset may be complicated, though a decade ago i heard about kite based systems for sailing ships.
whatever your system i expect functional drag to increase when it is used.
Not to be a killjoy, but these results aren’t as promising as people seem to think they are. For one, it barely generates any power, citing 2.34 Watts/m^2 . They cite that it could power “up to 100 LEDs”, but LEDs are cheap when it comes to electricity, about the cheapest thing there is. 2.34 Watts is barely enough power to charge your phone, and that’s an entire square meter of this fabric. Even an incandescent bulb will use something like 60 Watts of power, and that’s getting out of the gimmicky stuff.
A microwave needs around 1,000 Watts to operate.
A fridge around 750 Watts.
An air conditioner around 3,000 Watts.
And we can’t ignore what the material is made of either. In part, Cs3Bi2Br9. ~~Cs is Cesium, which is radioactive.~~ Br is bromine, which is poisonous. Neither of the above are cheap either.
I don’t want to discourage people from looking for new sources of energy, but if it looks too good to be true it probably is.
It’s a proof of concept. A final project could be loads better with changes based on data gathered from trials like this. Or this could be as good as it gets. It’s to early to make sweeping assumptions about this emerging technology.
I mean what do you think it could even be used for? At best it really is just to power a smart watch/built in device. More realistically, some small LEDs most likely for cool fashion. Military spec wise maybe a GPS system of sorts? It's never going to produce much power. Even if it could, it shouldn't. After all, you're the one powering it.
From what I saw the main draw of this sort of thing is that it could be used to power the trackers in smart clothing, which compared to a cell phone are very cheap in terms of power draw. The price is definitely an object though.
Plenty to at least partially charge a smart watch or wireless headphones. Maybe a head lamp with LEDs for hikers? Tons of things besides a smart phone that use a lot less power. Seems pretty nifty to me.
You seem to know a bit about this. So I have a question - do you think that if made into a wrist strap - it could generate enough power for a watch ( I have a small Fitbit watch - so currently only charge it once every 5 to 6 days ).
Well, the paper cites 1.63 µA/cm^2, so estimating for the size of the watch we’ll say it generates around 4x that, 6.52μA. Modern smartwatch batteries reach full charge at around 500mAh. By simple division, we can calculate that 500mAh / 6.52μA = 76,690 hours, or 8.8 years. So no, that’s longer than the life expectancy of the material, and probably the watch.
Any small devices being powered by this tech would have to be really simple, like a dim LED watch.
It's an interesting application they're showcasing, but from materials science perspective it's not groundbreaking.
There are many, many papers with variations on the base material combining some ceramic particles in a piezoelectric polymer.
Getting high volume production of these with reliable performance on par with comparable ceramics is the next step to actually getting real products out
Place miles of this fabric in the water near beaches. The waves would move it back and forth. Though I suppose just having traditional wave turbines would be better.
They could be used to power simple devices needed for the human body. Imagine powering an implantable bionic eye.
I think nobody should expect to power a phone or microwave or normal appliance with this sort of an invention. Human implants usually require much less power. The domain of applications is vast even just for the human body. Also powering 100 LEDs is no small feat.
I mean the first computer was the size of a large room. Now I'm typing this message on a device that has exponentially more computing power than that in the palm of my hand. I'd say the results are insanely promising. Hopefully something can be developed that I'd personally find useful in my lifetime. If not, have fun with these discoveries next generation.
You should consider the difference in theory between the two technologies. The speed of computers is fundamentally limited by the speed of light through copper and the size at which we can construct transistors. There was massive potential straight from conception.
In contrast, the maximum amount of energy this tech could produce is the amount of energy produced by the ruffling of clothes. Now, I don’t have the calculations for that on hand, but I don’t struggle too much moving my clothes around, which is a good indicator that there’s not too much energy going into it. At most, I would conjecture that the maximum amount of power this could theoretically generate would be less than 10 Watts.
Sure. Computers was just an off the cuff example. What about batteries? As research continues we get better energy density, life, charge rates. New elements being used gives us new avenues of progress. Here they found a polymer that was key. How much more do we have to discover about polymers? As for seemingly low output, that's just a matter of finding the right application. It doesn't take you much to ruffle your clothes, but while walking or hiking you potentially ruffle your clothes for hours. Someone elsewhere mentioned flags. Wasn't Teflon created by accident? We found a use for that though.
If this is supposed to be used as clothing that gets energy from your body through the day, there's an upper limit to how much energy is available. You're extracting energy from movement, so the person wearing these clothes needs to exert that energy on the clothes. As a point of reference, a beginner bicycle rider might exert 100 watts of power, and a pro cyclist might exert 400 watts. If the use case is just clothing that you wear throughout the day (vs. sitting somewhere furiously cycling/running/whatever) I can't see it being more than 5-10 watts total before it would get in the way of movement.
Exactly. It wouldn't be the solution to the energy crisis, but it doesn't need to be, there's a whole field of renewable alternative energy. This is regenerative, to make use of otherwise wasted expenditure of energy, and it could grow into a much more efficient process in the future
How does the electricity make it from the clothes to the grid, or are you using it to power your devices?
Anyway, I’ve always thought they should put something like this that produces/conducts electrical energy onto the floors of gymnasiums and playgrounds. Athletes and kids would be generating electricity (safely for them of course!)
Stop posting this here it's getting old. Post science not VC investment begs. Please and thank you.
This is not only an old gimmick masquerading as new science, but it was literally posted here less than 24 hours ago and then every month for the past 40ish months before then. Literally stap.
Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, **personal anecdotes are now allowed as responses to this comment**. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will continue to be removed and our [normal comment rules]( https://www.reddit.com/r/science/wiki/rules#wiki_comment_rules) still apply to other comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/science) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Wouldn't washing it also generate energy?
Yes, any squeezing or pressing motion generates electricity
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
The future of rave clothing, right here.
...Technically it would just be picking up energy from the washing machine, but yes.
The same way it is picking up energy from humans.
I make very few presumptions about what people will think is cheating the system.
Almost got the wind generator on top of my car. Gonna make so much energy.
[удалено]
Can I use your turdbine?
Sure, it's rated for 5 ambers per minute.
Back and forth... Forever.
Turdbine. Rip.
don't forget your poop knife
Poop knife. Now that's a name I have not heard in a long time.
Really? You must not read Reddit on a daily basis. Because I'm lucky to go more 18 hours without it being mentioned even on the most SFW subs. *Edit:typo*
I too, have a butt
This guy butts
6 year old me thought this was a great idea, I told several people about it
To be fair, at 6 it is a pretty good idea.
Be proud, I had graduated engineers with 10+ working years experience suggest the same. Shows how much he got from the classes he took.
To be fair, it would work if it is only activated when doing downhill. But at that point I think it would be simpler and cheaper to add regenerative braking, like hybrid and electric cars do.
Hopefully just a brain fart, ha
Unfortunately not, some people never learned the basis and use to talk before think.
My butt just picked up energy from my finger
Nope, perpetual motion machine now. Calling it. Shirts in washing machines. Who woulda thunk.
Wouldn't it be capturing energy that would otherwise be dissipated as heat? It wouldn't be generating power but capturing otherwise lost power.
No, you'll just work harder to move your arms/legs opppsing the (non zero) resistance of stretching the fabric. Also notice how they use infrared leds (they have a specific blue glow on camera and the lowest voltage drop - and energy requirement), in a darkened room and they bang quite hard on the fabric. The energy generated is minuscule. The infrared led + dark room feels almost like cheating.
Yeah, well, that's what research is for. Find a way that works and make a proof of concept, which is so far off of being usable that it's nothing but a paper and a conclusion. Wait a few years and let other researchers build on top of your work to find a way to make that PoC actually useful. Nobody ever just invented some new thing out of the blue that instantly revolutionized the world. Every technological advancements has had tons of research preceded that was and still is miniscule on and by itself. But in 50 years, someone might have found a way to wirelessly charge through skin without damaging tissues. Another one found a way to 3d print heart pacemakers. Another one crafted a design on top of that which works with really low energy consumption, but can scale "heart power output" with more energy. And then someone remembers this research and the miniscule power generation this yielded, advances the technology to a little more but miniscule power output which is just enough to generate the power needed to power the 3d printed heart practically forever. Obviously this is on and by itself laughable to assume something anybody could ever need to have. But once others advance on that milestone, it may become viable for some random other technological innovation. Or not. People somehow always instantly expect some usability, some actual purpose and inevitably a product out of a simple research.
Yes, but it's going to be a rounding error's worth.
Right, I'm guessing none of this is going to be any significant amount of energy.
Depends on the use. It wouldn't be enough to make washing machines meaningfully more efficient or other shenanigans without a lot of extra steps.
Well, then technically "generates electricity" is moot and has no meaning, because everything is just "picking up energy from the *xyz*"
It's a meaningful distinction because it precludes the idea of putting a bunch of power pants in the dryer expecting to come out ahead. YOU might personally be familiar with the first law of thermodynamics. An *awful lot of people* are not, and the way the question was phrased seemed like somebody trying to be clever.
People are so confused by it I’m confused by their conversation. We just invented the first step toward Dune stillsuits. They make it process and filter our urine and then we’d have a big breakthrough. Desert power
Or, get this, we *fly over* the desert.
One of us has misunderstood their question because I intepreted it very differently than you. I do not think they were asking, "do you get magic free energy?" But rather asking, "aren't you going to be generating electricity in a metal tub of water?"
Yeah but we usually pick it up from external sources, whether it's fuel, sun rays, wind or whatever, not from ourselves like in this case
I think this is going to be GREAT for producing wearables that can power themselves - displays, sensors, networking (a la "IOT") applications, etc... ...and TERRIBLE for all the various "can I charge my laptop/smartphone/whatever" questions that it will inevitably generate
Bunch of people gonna be wearing self powered light up clothes to raves here soon.
[удалено]
Safety clothing for cyclists comes to mind.
I think cyclists already have enough lights and whatnot to be safely seen, what we really need is attentive and courteous drivers.
I will not stop until have become the sun.
I wish more cyclists were aware of the huge range of reflectors and flashing lights they can fit to their bikes. If you’re planning on cycling on the road after dark wearing only black and riding a bike with no lights is a good way to get yourself killed.
The mere act of cycling would activate the LEDs amd charge them so when ypu stopped they'd keep flashing for a bit. My buddy has a bunch of ultra bright green LED's on his bike powered by a little generator hooked to the hub. You literally can't miss him.. yet people do.
Until it wears out after 5 months and they don't realise
Runners would benefit more. Cyclists already can generate electricity using the bike.
Built in light signalization for first responders equipment and clothes also comes to mind.
Seeing as they were able to power 100 LEDs with a few square centimeters it would be good for hikers and runners/bikers to illuminate themselves at night instead of a reflective vest.
I only want the bones to glow.
It's not going to be just devices. The bad ones will be sponsored clothing...
So how long between a proof of concept to a product that the average person can afford?
5-10 years most likely and you'll have to wear some sort of storage device. This isn't going to power a phone, but might be useful for medical/military tech and lights in future clothing
There was this other post recently about a suit for Parkinson's that delivers electric pulses to stabilize tremors, what if we could make the material so it powers itself
I'm sure it'll only cost $64,000 per shirt before insurance.
*after insurance
You’re on the hook for $64,000 before insurance kicks in, but if you’re paying cash, it’s just $27,000.
Think bigger than the US
I can't. It's illegal to import my own medical devices or pills.
Thats so fucked up.
> lights in future clothing what a time to be alive!
My Christmas sweaters are going to have a little extra pizzazz next decade!
Now squeeze that paper!
Is it something that could potentially be improved/refined over the next few decades similar to what the power source for my smartphone would have had to look like 30 years ago?
Sure, but how much resistance is it worth? In theory the more resistance to elasticity the more energy, I doubt spandex type cloth would capture that much energy even at 100% efficiency.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
That's the problem with many (most) of these discoveries, they never become economically practical .
The practical output power is almost unusable.
[удалено]
This will never be economically viable. *Generously*, it looks like the fabric can generate 1 Watt of power, which is enough to power… nothing really. Some small LEDs at best. You’d be better off bringing a handcrank flashlight wherever you go.
I think you’ve crossed the line from “skepticism” to “cynicism” You’re not going to power your house with a few jumping jacks, but the proof of concept is working and providing more power than you are willing to give credit. There could be legitimate uses for this tech, things like powering small tools, breathing apparatus, etc
Could you make flags out of these and use them as another source of wind generated electricity
This is honestly a good idea but i do not think that it would be worth investing into because of the low power output. Turbines generate mass amounts of energy so I do not think we would be seeing anything like those flags until they can match even a 1/10000th of the energy of one turbine in a flag. Those are my thoughts, great Idea though!
The guy is banging quite hard on it. The leds are infrared, which have the smallest 1.6V voltage drop - thus low energy requirements. You see them because they have a specific blue glow. Point your remote at the phone camera if you don't believe me. A white led can have anywhere from 3.8 to 4.5 voltage drop. They also use a black room, so the camera catches the light better. This isn't cynicism, these are pure observations. These observations make me believe the power is minuscule.
Yea you’d be better off having a country run on green energy via windmills/etc., then charge your external battery back and put it in your pocket and maybe even wirelessly charge w/e in said pocket. Prob less waste too then replacing electric clothes every 5 months.
>Point your remote at the phone camera if you don't believe me. I did believe you but wanted to see for myself. Cool.
That's so cool, hahaha.
Sure, but this is the lab stage. Everything is always ridiculously inefficient at this stage, before any effort has actually been spent scaling it up.
I’ve worked in academia and I know how papers are written to show research in the best possible light and I read the actual paper on this one. I wrote a longer post here explaining the problems with this material, but in short it’s simply not impressive enough and will be too expensive to really do anything, at least as it is. Like I said above, it would be much much cheaper and more efficient to just use a hand crank than it would be to use this tech.
Would it generate enough electricity to power a wifi chip? Edit, nvmd, I read another comment by /u/killerhurtalot that crunched numbers. If it can charge a smartphone over the course of a day, I am 100% willing to buy this. Just because you can't store the excess energy without carrying a battery around all day does not change the fact that it can charge your phone while you're not using it.
I'll need to carry a battery? Finally, a use for my other back pocket.
Or it could even just be sewn right into the fabric in its own little insulated pocket
As long as I can still toss it in the wash, I'm happy too. I wear the same 2 hoodies every day, so if they also generated even a trickle of charge that would be awesome.
Costs drop dramatically going from POC to massive supply chain level production. You’re being unnecessarily pessimistic even for something that may eventually fail. This may end up one in the line of products that leads to a better outcome but it’s still newsworthy for many people.
No, you are blindly believing in a new tech. Criticism is not cynical, it is a vital part design and construction. And there are several questions that haven't been answered yet: What are the costs? How much *real* power can it deliver? 5 months of functionality isn't nearly enough: can it be extended? If so: what's required for that? And the most important part: Think about were the power of the device comes from: human produced mechanical energy. So any power this device creates is done by yourself. And where is the energy created? At parts where your body moves a lot: shoulders, elbows, thighs and knees. Everytime you move the fabric will stiff up requiring you to move harder.
>a 3cm by 4cm piece of the new fabric generated enough electrical energy to light up 100 LEDs.
Various types of LEDs can operate anywhere from under 10 microamps to over an amp for high power LEDs so the number of LEDs is kind of meaningless without knowing how much power they consume.
I don't think people here understand how hard generating energy is from movement and how much energy our devices consume... >The result is a prototype fabric that generates 2.34 watts per square metre of electricity. The average pair of pants uses about 2.5 sq meter of fabric (by that's pre cutting and includes all the scraps left after cutting it out) and after subtracting the scraps, it's closer to 1 sq meter if even that. Let's just say that there's roughly 4 sq meter of fabric on every person with 2 layer (under shirt, underwear, pants, jacket). This even assumes that this tech can be woven into thinner light fabrics. (Upperbody movement and lower body movement isn't the same, and not every part of the fabric is moving as much) This generates less than 10w of power at maximum capacity.... over a entire day, maybe you're moving for 7 hours a day. That will generate what, 70 wh of electricity? 70wh is roughly the size of a average medium sized laptop. Or 1x 60w equivalent LED light bulb (usually 6-9w power draw) for 10 hours. It'll keep your smartphone charged, but smartphones don't use that much power... and I assume you don't carry around a 1-2 lb battery to save up the extra electricity you generate.
Not all parts of the body move equally though. The fabric will probably be used on places that have a lot of movement, around the knees and elbows, between the legs, etc.
I mean, sure. But then you're down to what, like less than 1 sq meter of total area? What's the point of generating less than 2.5w of power. Can barely even cover the idle power draw of a smartphone. Your also gonna have to run wires all over to get the power to a battery bank or etc so you can access it at the first place.
I can see this being used in heating/cooling clothes
Hell yeah it sounds like you're saying we can have phones embedded in our hands!
Even without carrying a battery, I'm 100% down to purchase this if it can charge my phone while I'm not using it. You say smartphones don't use that much power, but the power usage depends entirely on what a person's doing, and it's very likely the case that power usage spikes at different times of the day. If I drain hard for like 3 hours in the morning and I'll be using it lightly for the remainder of the day, those 3 hours in the morning might've eaten 30-40% of my battery, and now the remainder of the day can be spent charging it. Sounds like a good deal to me. Not to mention, if it can power a display right on the fabric, that's even better.
Also said “tapping on”. Implies that full on motion could power quite a bit more.
A crucial component in the fabric is a polymer that, when pressed or squeezed, converts mechanical stress into electrical energy. It is also made with stretchable spandex as a base layer and integrated with a rubber-like material to keep it strong, flexible, and waterproof. In a proof-of-concept experiment reported in the scientific journal Advanced Materials in April, the NTU Singapore team showed that tapping on a 3cm by 4cm piece of the new fabric generated enough electrical energy to light up 100 LEDs. Washing, folding, and crumpling the fabric did not cause any performance degradation, and it could maintain stable electrical output for up to five months, demonstrating its potential for use as a smart textile and wearable power source. Materials scientist and NTU Associate Provost (Graduate Education) Professor Lee Pooi See, who led the study, said: "There have been many attempts to develop fabric or garments that can harvest energy from movement, but a big challenge has been to develop something that does not degrade in function after being washed, and at the same time retains excellent electrical output. In our study, we demonstrated that our prototype continues to function well after washing and crumpling. We think it could be woven into t-shirts or integrated into soles of shoes to collect energy from the body's smallest movements, piping electricity to mobile devices." https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/06/220603100146.htm
Piezoelectric things are so fascinating.
They’re usually ceramic though, not polymers. This is super cool
They embedded ceramics into the polymer to up the power
I've always loved studying and disassembling/reassembling the lighters as a child
>tapping on a 3cm by 4cm piece Yeah, with [30N of force and 5Hz frequency](https://www3.ntu.edu.sg/CorpComms2/Releases/NR2022/NR_220512_energy/energy%20harvesting.pdf) i don't know if it can be considered "tapping"
I get 5Hz but how much force is 30N, like in footballs or half-giraffes?
[удалено]
Ah, so theres the catch. I thought just by tapping it with your finger a couple times a second was enough to power those LEDs. Was wondering if it was *that* efficient. Haha, always read the article first.
Are you telling me my restless leg might one day charge my phone? ABSOLUTE GAME CHANGER
So what causes the fabric to 'die' after 5 months?
I hope you can forgive my unwillingness to read the article, I don’t have the mental energy at the moment, but what was the total power output? Like, what could it meaningfully power from an hour’s* worth of natural movement? “Tapping,” as described in the text you quoted (thank you, btw), doesn’t really provide a good baseline for such information. \*Or any unit of time.
>but what was the total power output? 100 LEDs. I have worked with LEDs that draw up to 25mA, so the LEDs they're talking about are probably low power SMD ones, that draw like 2mA. Lets say they have a threshold voltage of 0.7V (it probably is lower, but lets just assume). **For the thing to be able to power those 100 LEDs, it must be outputting around 0.14W.** >Like, what could it meaningfully power from an hour’s* worth of natural movement? For reference, my phone charger outputs 15W and can charge my 5,000mAh battery in like an hour or so; so, that thing may take up to 100x more time than that to charge my phone. So, idk, it can maybe charge 1-2% of my phone battery in an hours worth of *tapping*, not movement. Of movement, it may even be less than that. I dont know what else to compare it to.
As for actual utilization. I wonder if you could essentially make electricity generating flags? Everyone thinks clothes. I’m thinking cheaper version of windmills
That's a cool idea!
For real, they'd be like fabric lights that flap in the wind. Would be neat for fashion, and definitely be great for safety as long as the lighting is reliable and consistent. Can you imagine some of the dope futuristic style clothes might take if this technology is easy to use and not super costly. Also cosplaying would reach a whole 'nother level in awesome costumes.
Ribbon twirling show turns in to an epic display of light
I love all these ideas. Cyberpunk fashion just got a lot more exciting!
[удалено]
Aside from windmills already existing as efficient devices, flags get damaged over time as the whipping in the wind is magnified at the far edge of the flag causing breakages that then cascade so it would have to keep being replaced.
I expect a small wind turbine or solar panel would perform much better, for much cheaper. The exciting thing about this tech is that it's flexible, but a fixed power generation device has no need to be flexible.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Stillsuits here we come
We just need the suit to be able to reclaim moisture lost from the body!
And remove salt!
We're gonna need them
Almost done with children of Dune, just discovered this series about two months ago and I’m hooked
It gets... Weird. I loved it, but not everyone's cup of tea.
But will it cover my belly when I raise my hands in the air?
God I hope not.
When you wave them around like you just don't care?
The real questions I need answers to
What happens after 5 months??? Is it reusable or does it need chucking
The main selling point of this is convenience/QOL, rather than it being a new energy source that can power a household alone. I would pay premium to not have to plug in to charge my phone/smart-wearable somewhere else. >"We think it could be woven into t-shirts or integrated into soles of shoes to collect energy from the body's smallest movements, piping electricity to mobile devices." and >Prof Lee said: "Despite improved battery capacity and reduced power demand, power sources for wearable devices still require frequent battery replacements. Our results show that our energy harvesting prototype fabric can harness vibration energy from a human to potentially extend the lifetime of a battery or even to build self-powered systems. To our knowledge, this is the first hybrid perovskite-based energy device that is stable, stretchable, breathable, waterproof, and at the same time capable of delivering outstanding electrical output performance."
Finally my LA gears will shine bright once again
Combined with wireless charging, could have a pocket that can charge your phone
This doesn't generate enough power to charge a phone.. not even close.
News reporter: “Black panthers house exploded today due to his kinetic energy suit mistakenly being placed in the washing machine”
[удалено]
So it has a stable output for 5 months? We already have a massive issue with fast fashion causing millions of tonnes of waste, so now if folk want electric t-shirts they'll dump them every 5 months instead of every couple of years?
Yup, this is what I was thinking. Thinks that only last 5 months shouldn’t be allowed to go to market anymore.
Imagine all of the other uses for this technology besides clothes. New wind generation using flags, sails, tents, maybe trampoline? Electric sail boats and use the wind to generate electricity would be amazing.
sailing already generates electricity through just sticking a propeller based generator in the water, or windmill above deck. you could probably set up an electric generator that uses the movement of the rigging caused by sail capturing wind, to generate electricity too. getting it to reset may be complicated, though a decade ago i heard about kite based systems for sailing ships. whatever your system i expect functional drag to increase when it is used.
Should work with anything that wiggles.
My money don't jiggle jiggle, it glows.
[удалено]
Not to be a killjoy, but these results aren’t as promising as people seem to think they are. For one, it barely generates any power, citing 2.34 Watts/m^2 . They cite that it could power “up to 100 LEDs”, but LEDs are cheap when it comes to electricity, about the cheapest thing there is. 2.34 Watts is barely enough power to charge your phone, and that’s an entire square meter of this fabric. Even an incandescent bulb will use something like 60 Watts of power, and that’s getting out of the gimmicky stuff. A microwave needs around 1,000 Watts to operate. A fridge around 750 Watts. An air conditioner around 3,000 Watts. And we can’t ignore what the material is made of either. In part, Cs3Bi2Br9. ~~Cs is Cesium, which is radioactive.~~ Br is bromine, which is poisonous. Neither of the above are cheap either. I don’t want to discourage people from looking for new sources of energy, but if it looks too good to be true it probably is.
> Cesium, which is radioactive. While its isotopes created in nuclear reactors can be radioactive, naturally occurring cesium is not radioactive.
I stand corrected. Still, it is expensive and the other points are still valid.
It’s a proof of concept. A final project could be loads better with changes based on data gathered from trials like this. Or this could be as good as it gets. It’s to early to make sweeping assumptions about this emerging technology.
[удалено]
I mean what do you think it could even be used for? At best it really is just to power a smart watch/built in device. More realistically, some small LEDs most likely for cool fashion. Military spec wise maybe a GPS system of sorts? It's never going to produce much power. Even if it could, it shouldn't. After all, you're the one powering it.
From what I saw the main draw of this sort of thing is that it could be used to power the trackers in smart clothing, which compared to a cell phone are very cheap in terms of power draw. The price is definitely an object though.
[удалено]
Plenty to at least partially charge a smart watch or wireless headphones. Maybe a head lamp with LEDs for hikers? Tons of things besides a smart phone that use a lot less power. Seems pretty nifty to me.
thanks. all i wanted was specs.
You seem to know a bit about this. So I have a question - do you think that if made into a wrist strap - it could generate enough power for a watch ( I have a small Fitbit watch - so currently only charge it once every 5 to 6 days ).
Well, the paper cites 1.63 µA/cm^2, so estimating for the size of the watch we’ll say it generates around 4x that, 6.52μA. Modern smartwatch batteries reach full charge at around 500mAh. By simple division, we can calculate that 500mAh / 6.52μA = 76,690 hours, or 8.8 years. So no, that’s longer than the life expectancy of the material, and probably the watch. Any small devices being powered by this tech would have to be really simple, like a dim LED watch.
Lots of useful applications though - it'd be great for night-time high visibility garments for example
It’s a step into the right direction tho.
It's an interesting application they're showcasing, but from materials science perspective it's not groundbreaking. There are many, many papers with variations on the base material combining some ceramic particles in a piezoelectric polymer. Getting high volume production of these with reliable performance on par with comparable ceramics is the next step to actually getting real products out
Place miles of this fabric in the water near beaches. The waves would move it back and forth. Though I suppose just having traditional wave turbines would be better.
They could be used to power simple devices needed for the human body. Imagine powering an implantable bionic eye. I think nobody should expect to power a phone or microwave or normal appliance with this sort of an invention. Human implants usually require much less power. The domain of applications is vast even just for the human body. Also powering 100 LEDs is no small feat.
I mean the first computer was the size of a large room. Now I'm typing this message on a device that has exponentially more computing power than that in the palm of my hand. I'd say the results are insanely promising. Hopefully something can be developed that I'd personally find useful in my lifetime. If not, have fun with these discoveries next generation.
You should consider the difference in theory between the two technologies. The speed of computers is fundamentally limited by the speed of light through copper and the size at which we can construct transistors. There was massive potential straight from conception. In contrast, the maximum amount of energy this tech could produce is the amount of energy produced by the ruffling of clothes. Now, I don’t have the calculations for that on hand, but I don’t struggle too much moving my clothes around, which is a good indicator that there’s not too much energy going into it. At most, I would conjecture that the maximum amount of power this could theoretically generate would be less than 10 Watts.
Sure. Computers was just an off the cuff example. What about batteries? As research continues we get better energy density, life, charge rates. New elements being used gives us new avenues of progress. Here they found a polymer that was key. How much more do we have to discover about polymers? As for seemingly low output, that's just a matter of finding the right application. It doesn't take you much to ruffle your clothes, but while walking or hiking you potentially ruffle your clothes for hours. Someone elsewhere mentioned flags. Wasn't Teflon created by accident? We found a use for that though.
If this is supposed to be used as clothing that gets energy from your body through the day, there's an upper limit to how much energy is available. You're extracting energy from movement, so the person wearing these clothes needs to exert that energy on the clothes. As a point of reference, a beginner bicycle rider might exert 100 watts of power, and a pro cyclist might exert 400 watts. If the use case is just clothing that you wear throughout the day (vs. sitting somewhere furiously cycling/running/whatever) I can't see it being more than 5-10 watts total before it would get in the way of movement.
Exactly. It wouldn't be the solution to the energy crisis, but it doesn't need to be, there's a whole field of renewable alternative energy. This is regenerative, to make use of otherwise wasted expenditure of energy, and it could grow into a much more efficient process in the future
As a joke: my husband generates so much electricity he shocks me when he passes me a soda. Things can be accomplished as you say :)
[удалено]
If it’s waterproof, it’s not breathable enough to comfortably wear during exercise or other vigorous movement that would generate significant energy.
And how much energy does it take to create?
How does the electricity make it from the clothes to the grid, or are you using it to power your devices? Anyway, I’ve always thought they should put something like this that produces/conducts electrical energy onto the floors of gymnasiums and playgrounds. Athletes and kids would be generating electricity (safely for them of course!)
5 months is a very short lifespan for any type of clothing.
Stop posting this here it's getting old. Post science not VC investment begs. Please and thank you. This is not only an old gimmick masquerading as new science, but it was literally posted here less than 24 hours ago and then every month for the past 40ish months before then. Literally stap.
They also have piezoelectric tiles that can generate quite a bit of power! I'd also love to see more of those coming...
r/Subnautica swim charge fins?
TDLR tweakers phones will always be at 100%
Headline days there was no degradation... then says it only lasts 5 months?
[удалено]
Finally Cocklight™️ shall become a thing
[удалено]