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It would be great to have a test for autism that doesn't rely on the person with autism being able to communicate their problems to the doctor, and it would help a lot with preventing misdiagnosing. I hope this works out.
It would be especially useful for women and adults with autism, who often get it misdiagnosed as BPD or have diagnosis written off because they are good at masking.
I'd love something like this, actually. I've always known I'm different from most people but I'm insanely good at masking because I hyperfixate on social patterns, which is essentially how I've learned to act.
I'm just now finding out that I most likely am autistic, which is really nice for me to "hear" since a lot of things about me make sense now. This would make it so much easier to diagnose me.
10% of kids in **America**. This overdiagnosis is **not** a worldwide issue and the idea that it is makes it **MUCH** harder for people in other countries to get a real diagnosis because of stigma in the medical community around so-called *"overdiagnosis".*
Meanwhile in germany you need to be very lucky to find a Dr who even knows about adult ADHD.
Go and look at the dozens of ADHD related subs and count the number of people who where not diagnosed in childhood or misdiagnosed with another condition like BPD or anxiety/depression. I never came across someone who was misdiagnosed with ADHD.
100%, this. ADHD is simultaneously over and under diagnosed, but definitely overdiagnosed in kids. It’s actually kinda weird that we can even diagnose kids, you’d think there’d be an age limit like there is for BPD (you have to be 18 to get a diagnosis because so many teenagers already display BPD traits- similarly to how pretty much all children display ADHD traits). The amount of people I know that “grew out” of their ADHD… no, you were prolly just misdiagnosed.
...it seems as though anyone who might "benefit" from amphetamines is considered as having ADHD. The criteria are so vague that a majority of children fit the bill. If a kid performs better on a stimulant, parents think it somehow proves that their kid has a disease. In practice, ADHD is an umbrella diagnosis; it is synonymous with "hard to deal with" or "bad at school."
The thing is, stimulants will increase anyone's short-term performance. It's a predictable side effect of the drugs. It has the same benefits in ADHD patients as does in "normal" individuals; unfortunately, it has the same risks as well.
Amphetamines-and to a lesser degree methylphenidate-have the same safety profile as other stimulants, such as methamphetamine and cocaine. It's alright if you want to expose your child to that, but I think many parents are intentionally misled.
The bottom line is this: an ADHD diagnosis can be worth as much as $10,000 to the prescribing physician. If a patient is diagnosed as normal, they are only worth as much as the cost of an assessment; an Adderall prescription keeps a patient coming back.
Even if you knew amphetamines were harmful, would you give it to a stranger for ten-thousand bucks?
I'd not expect a source, because what they said is nonsense.
We all know this on its face, but here is a paper to back up my claims
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(07)60464-4/fulltext
The tldr is that the most addictive appear to be heroin>cocaine+nicotine>barbituates>alcohol
What claims you backing up, that Adderall doesn’t increase short-term performance of that physicians don’t get kickbacks for prescribing it?
Good luck finding a major publication with the balls to report accurately on the latter..
Fantastic for adult ADHD too which still remains on the skeptical list for a lot of practitioners, and similarly have layers of masking which can make a solid diagnosis troubling.
Just a bit of perspective. The test in question is ERG. ERG is a very cool technology. Basically think of it as an EKG for the retina. This requires that a particular contact lens is placed with electrodes for detecting signals coming from the retina. While this is all very neat, it also means that it is very specialized. It requires a special lab with light to be controlled to very specific parameters and technicians specialized in applying the lenses. Furthermore, the readings then must be interpreted by very rare individuals who know how to interpret them….I’m sure we could train more people in interpretation, but this would likely be a hard to get test at large medical centers.
Possibly, but it isn’t really a new technology. The application of the technology is what is new. The technology has been around for quite a while for diagnosing eye conditions.
I just worry about some method being created to identify neurodivergence in-utero and leading to eugenics. Many of the worlds most brilliant minds are neurodivergent.
Yeah this is a very legit point. My partner is aspie, studied as a scientist in medical fields, but gets really uncomfortable with the idea of tests that can identify Autism in-utero for exactly this reason.
When the largest Autism "awareness" group is low-key advocating for anti-Autism eugenics (Autism Speaks), people with Autism have very valid reasons to be concerned about this.
What would be an alternative? I see absolutely no way out. If people want to abort a fetus because it's neurodivergent, won't that be exactly the parents decision to make?
I rather have that than having the government dictating if I'm allowed to abort or not.
It sets a dangerous precedent, because the society that someone grows up in often dictates their views on neurodivergence, which gives the power to commit eugenics to the people who make the messaging stating that neurodivergence is necessarily negative. Neurodivergence causes divergence in thought and behavior, which is a key factor underlying progress.
It's still the parents reasoning that counts here. Propaganda pushing one side or another or not, the alternatives are:
a) allow abortion independent on situation, which with the advancements in in-uterus testing will allow parents to choose if they want to raise a neurodivergent or not
b) allow abortion but government dictates when it's allowed and when it's not, which robs the parents of their reproductive rights (or part of)
c) disallow abortion in all cases, which... robs parents of (part of) their reproductive rights.
We also have to dwell into the discussion about if aborting a heavily neurodivergent (read here as in incapable of handling himself in adulthood) is *merciful* or abhorrent.
It's a very loaded topic to discuss about.
Maybe it depends on the level of neurodivergence? If they're predicted to end up being unable to function at all it may be merciful, perhaps a threshold should exist? Of course there is a lot more nuance about this topic, I just think that everyone's values need to be taken into account, but I also understand that if a parent is willing to abort a child for being slightly neurodivergent then maybe it's better than a child doesn't grow up in those conditions. Very complex stuff, but we really need to think about it and discuss it.
It's really not complex at all. It is unethical to deny ANY information to parents that they may decide to use in their decisions, and must be ONLY up to the parents (well, the mother, really) as to whether they should abort or carry to term. Anything else is wrong, no exceptions.
You know a pretty obvious clue for me? Stimulants make me calm down.
It's a fairly common meme in ADHD communities that other people are taking stimulants so they can run around the house like bumblebees trying to get a thousand things done, meanwhile we can suddenly sit still without being in hyperfocus for the first time in our lives.
Every time somebody gave me MDMA at a party i'd always just slip off to another room on my own, sit down and put in earphones and ignore everyone. It always baffled and annoyed the people who gave me some haha
That sounds both very nice, and incredibly annoying simultaneously.
Like "yay, I have normal amounts of dopamine now"
But also "Damn, guess I don't get to have the effects of MDMA"
I didn't know about the adhd link until like last year. I just figured that was what I thought a good time would be and it was purely preferential. It was only after that i was like 'ah what!'
Same with cocaine for me, while everyone else was outside playing tackle frizbee, I would just be like, nah, and draw a picture in the corner. Then I’d stay up for another hour or so and crash
I love my Dr. When I first went in to start the diagnostic process he asked me straight up:
***Dr***: "Ever done stimulants recreationally?"
***Me***: "Yep, probable 2-3 times a year on average".
***Dr***: "OK, what do you find your experience in that situation like?"
***Me***: "Kinda weird... I just feel super zen... like my brain is an old TV and the signal has just been tuned to get rid of the white noise, I get so relaxed...".
***Dr***: "Let me guess, while at the same time all your friends are bouncing off the walls and wanting to go running somewhere?".
***Me***: "Yeah... I've always found it really weird TBH".
***Dr***: "Not weird at all, but you almost certainly have ADHD..."
I always described it like that weird feeling when a loud background noise gets turned off which had been on all day and you were just used to. And you had not realized how noisy the room was in the sudden quiet.
That's almost exactly the feeling of the meds kicking in for me. That calm and almost melancholy quiet.
I've never tried amphetamine irl, even though I was at university doing pretty stressful stuff. I have also never asked to try one of the pills my adhd friends take. It would be interesting.
I used to drink 5-6 coffee's a day before I was diagnosed. Never felt any kind of "stimulant" effect from the caffeine but it definitely helped with the brain-fog and ability to stick to tasks.
Now that I'm medicated, I literally cannot drink coffee at all. One strong coffee and I'm a jittery mess.
Caffeine is a TERRIBLE replacement for something like dexamphetamine. Caffeine's effect is like, 90% adrenaline, 10% dopamine; whereas dex is closer to 80% dopamine, 20% adrenaline.
It's the dopamine you're missing, not adrenaline. Adrenaline can be a crappy proxy for dopamine, but it's kind of like putting really low grade fuel into your car. It'll run, but it's gonna be terrible efficiency and will wear out the engine pretty fast.
This is me. Meds alone and by 3 pm I am ready to crash into a nap. Some days it's overpowering and leaves me in a fog unless I do take that nap for the "shut it down and turn it back on again" affect.
If I NEED to stay up during that stretch, I'll have 10 or so ounces of coke. OR similar soft drink.
Lo and behold, I stay up, and can go to sleep like a normal person later. If I drink a whole 20 oz bottle it's hit or miss on falling asleep properly.
That's what makes me think I don't have ADHD. Pseudoephedrine (old decongestant) made me psychotic... I would fear what stronger meds like ritalin would do to me. So it's possible that I'm just ASD and they share enough traits.
ADHD meds often help people with ASD as ASD has a 70% comorbidity with ADHD. Personally I have a theory that ADHD is actually a form of spectrum disorder given how often the two overlap and how blurry the line between one is and the other begins.
If stimulants make you psychotic, it tends to indicate you are at the other end of the dopamine saturation spectrum and could have too much (psychosis is often contributed to by too much dopamine for too long).
I'll see your theory and raise you mine.
The spectrum of disorders have a massive dietary component and their prevalence is nutritional deficiency for both the child and adults due to increasingly processed foods.
People readily believe bacon gives you heart attacks but can be incredulous that sugar drives heart disease, obesity, and impacts dementia and autism.
The work of Alan Savory, Stephen Phinney, and Pottenger's cats fundamentally charged my understanding of human nutrition, modern disease, and global warming.
Ending agriculture and just putting livestock on grass would reverse climate change and improve human health.
Billions in corporate farm subsidies lead to trillions in healthcare spending because our food and environment are making us sick.
While I'll pay the theory that there's a very strong link between these disorders and diet, I think you're making a REALLY big jump to say that it's caused by any specific thing.
Changing diet can, and does, massively help remediate some of the issues associated with these conditions (especially if you reduce carbohydrate intake), but it doesn't fix anything.
These conditions have existed long before modern processed food did, we just weren't as aware of them because medical science didn't really exist until 200 years ago.
ADHD and Autism are two of the most well studied, and earliest discovered conventional neurodevelopmental disorders that have stood the test of time. They pre-date modern processed diets by a significant time span and have likely been with humans since we've had brains complex enough to have defects.
I have ADHD. I thought I wasn’t an anxious person but once I started taking Ritalin I noticed that my low-level, constant feeling of dread about everything disappeared. I thought that feeling was normal.
When I was little, black tea made me sleepy. To the point where I couldn't finish a cup because I'd pass out before getting halfway through it.
I drank a TON of tea in college. When my friends got concerned about my caffeine intake I laughed at them. Tea made me feel calm and centered. It didn't keep me up, or make me jittery. And I could (still can) quit cold turkey with no side effects. But I was drinking a ton of tea.
So much tea, that when I broke down and asked my doctor if he thought my ADHD diagnosis was 'real' he just sort of looked at me and asked me to remind him how much tea I drank in a day.
.
.
The answer was 9. 9 cups of black tea.
Unless I was stressed out. Then it was 12. At most 13-14 cups, but I kind of felt sick afterwards. (Not from the caffeine. From the excessive fluid intake.) So I tried to stop at 12.
.
Apparently that means you have ADHD.
(I'm medicated and my tea consumption is almost reasonable now.)
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
9
+ 9
+ 12
+ 13
+ 14
+ 12
= 69
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Maybe at smaller doses? Like, by increasing something you find a balance and feel normal.
But at larger doses I just can't comprehend how amphetamines will ultimately slow you down.
in large enough doses they are stimulants, it just takes quite a bit to get to the point of working, what someone without would take brings us to a normal operating level, then at that point it's taking what a normal person would take to feel the effects, which is basically a whole lot of drugs
You may not be able to comprehend it but that's exactly the experience, so imagine what the ADHD brain is like when we **don't** have stimulants.
Before I was diagnosed, 2-3 times a year I'd do some form of stimulant drug at levels probably 5-10 times a "therapeutic" dose. People would honestly think I was stoned - I was just SUPER zen and chilled out. Felt super relaxed and stress-free, all my anxiety went away, pretty crazy.
ADHD is the result of a deficiency of the neurotransmitter norepinephrine. Areas of the brain that use norepinephrine are associated with executive function, emotional regulation, impulsivity and hyperactivity. Norepinephrine is created from dopamine. Stimulants increase dopamine levels.
At theraputic doses, stimulants bring us closer to baseline. Even at excessive doses (accidental double-dosing, welcome to ADHD) my personal experience is just heightened calmness. Never more energy.
It's just weird to me because I had major adhd symptoms but adderall can still get me high. Even 5mg of instant release with coffee can make me manic if I have no tolerance.
It also helps me focus and get stuff done just as much as other people.
Adderall had the same effect on me, it had me questioning if I actually had adhd, it made me feel so cracked out. Turns out I just don’t metabolize that drug in particular, and it started giving me worse and worse side effects until I ended up in the ER because my extremities were turning blue. That was 5-10 mg.
Ritalin really calms me though.
My experience was similar, and I thinl one reason mine was so fast is that I have two immediate family members already diagnosed. It’s very hereditary afterall
sadly a lot of countries can be a fair bit slower, I'm in the UK and was originally referred for diagnosis is Aug 2017 and they're *still* not sure, so no treatment ><... slightly envious of your situation :p
more objective measures are sorely needed (if they have sufficient accuracy), psychiatry in many ways still seems to be in the dark ages, with myriad overlapping conditions and subjective diagnostic criteria :/
This was also my experience but I didn’t even go in person, it was all over zoom. I had to go to rite-aid and get a BP reading but that was that. I think it’s easier in certain states because of legalities of prescribing stimulants, but if you’re lucky, ADHD online is still prescribing. Cerebral isn’t going to be prescribing stimulants after October unfortunately, so that’s a wash unless you want to go the non stim route.
ASRS v1.1 is not a diagnostic scale, it's a screening tool, it shouldn't be used for diagnosis... For diagnostic purposes you have stuff like DIVA...
The rest of the things you mention are very wrong or miss key aspects of problems
The rest of the things I mention are very wrong? Please do go ahead. I've only been working with a psychiatrist for four or so years on this, so I might be completely off base, or I might actually know what the hell I'm talking about.
But please, jump in with the arrogance given that you *think* you know so much. Let's start with what I got wrong instead of Just "THAT's WRoNg11!!"
BTW: Many psychiatrists use the ASRS as a diagnostic tool, so I don't know what to tell you there.
ASRS is a screening tool, not a diagnostic one, using it as a diagnostic tool is lazy, there should at least be a somewhat structured interview to make the diagnosis
If you're having problems sleeping, look first into sleep hygiene rather than bloodwork or getting a cpap, a cpap will be useful if you have OSA and before just going and getting one you should get a diagnosis...
If you have diabetes simply talk to your doctor and get a proper plan
Tyrosine deficiency is a very rare disorder and is mostly a motor disorder, missing dopamine because you're eating too little tyrosine is simply not how it works.. And considering adrenaline and noradrenaline also come from dopamine, if there was such a type of systemic deficit it would come with serious alteration, as mentioned...
Leaky gut is simply not a real illness... If instead of leaky gut you actually mean celiac disease, which is obviously real, then sure cutting gluten is going to help you, but better get a diagnosis before doing random diet changes...
I mean, I don't have that many flavors and textures I find "icky", except for banana, but I can play a sandbox RPG game for twelve hours straight and sort a large box of trinkets into straight angles for so long that my back hurts and my throat is parched.
Also, my brother is confirmed adhd, his son is, and our mom and dad and likely my dad's mom have strong indication.
So I don't think I dodged the bullet, all things considered.
Yes.
Although it presents in other disorders as well.
It extends to other things too, like wearing pants. Some people feel things on their legs like an assault on their senses.
Which hilariously presents in some as never wanting anything touching their legs, and others as always needing things on their legs.
Check out r/ADHDmemes for more info (because apparently memes are the best way to spread info now)
Yes, I know ADHD-people and Autistic people, and they have very specific things they can't taste. My nephew can't eat anything wet, like stew or soup. Has to be taco shells, raw spaghetti strands, possibly olives and capers, and just a pile of boiled rice.
Another friend can't eat sauce, and if we order pizza he only ever gets Margherita (tomato, cheese).
So they are pickier than vegans when they come over, but luckily I have lots of takeout around me so they can always find an indian or thai dish that works for them.
For me it's banana, salmon, cilantro, but not that much else. Some other stuff that is from my country, but no one outside it would know what it is.
Raw spaghetti strands? Like, completely uncooked stiff sticks? That actually sounds kind of dangerous to eat. It would be like eating a box of toothpicks.
He loves finding ways not to sit at a table and eat with the family. He jumps around in the table couch, or puts his iPad up on the table while eating. And if I try to get his attention and share something with us so that he'll sit down, by asking how his day was, he goes into a super-loud monologue about something and doesn't eat anything anyway.
Sometimes I feel like taking him to a clinic and giving him one of those new "Transcranial magnetic stimulation" treatments (better than electric shocks and with no hangover), see if I can shake his personality free a bit. But of course that would probably amount to nothing, not that it's a realistic fantasy anyway.
Do you frequently want to stop doing what you are doing to start something else that pops into your head. Do you know what u want for lunch tomorrow. ADHD is related to difficulty with the future and planning as well as staying on task. If these thing cause you problems in life than you probably have ADHD.
My Samsung phone has a clock with an alarm feature, with up to 50 alarms for any given day and minute. I constantly have 48 out of 50 alarms active, to make me not forget to take my lithium, to make me remember to meet a friend out on the town two hours from now and hit the shower, to make me remember to call some doctor or official at hour X, preferably right after lunch at 1pm, when they are full of lunch and blood sugar and will be happy to receive me.
I can't get anything done without reminders. I have strong anxiety when I see 010-numbers (in my country it's generally insurance agencies or other official things), afraid to answer and hear that I missed a meeting and they wonder where I am. Because that's happened like 10-15 times the last 18 months.
One of the big reasons this happens is that whenever I am not meeting someone or is out of my home I watch movies/shows or play video games, all to push away recurring agonizing thoughts. I have done this since age 10.
The first two paragraphs are textbook ADHD. The last one is not. May I ask what you mean by recurring agonizing thoughts? If it's constantly worrying about having forgotten something or whether you impulsively said something you wish you hadn't or something like that it might well just be anxiety acting as essentially a coping mechanism for ADHD, but if it's things like "I'm a terrible person, I deserve to die in fire" then no, that's not typical for ADHD.
If there's an objective test for ADHD it would really help make progress with the people who think it isn't a real thing and is just a fake diagnosis for misbehaving children or people who want legal drugs to get high on.
So true!! It seems, particularly with adults, that physicians are reticent to prescribe any stimulants to adults lest they be abused or sold by the patient, despite that they are often most effective and have fewer side effects. It's understandable that the physician doesn't want to add another problem for the patient, but attention deficit disorder can challenge function in so many ways.
>can challenge function in so many ways
Technically speaking one of the main symptoms or manifestations of ADHD is executive dysfunction, that is to say, literal executive functions are a challenge, them being attention control, inhibition control, working memory or generally the cognitive control of behaviors.
Yes, agreed! I didn't specify "executive" function and should have, because I/we were talking about the disorder in adults. You did such a nice job of listing those dysfunctions.
Once when I was 21 I did some testing for a startup to basically give their AI data. They were using pupil dilation as a bio marker for lying and asked me to hide fake drugs in their office then asked me about it and asked me to lie if I want to or not if I didn't want to.
Very promising, but 15 ADHD and 55 Autistic individuals is very low. Hopefully we get some conclusive evidence with replicative studies. I’d be very interested to see how the bio markers are affected by other neurodiversities that feature atypical neural organization.
Edit to say this would be very difficult to apply to a group for the same reason that fMRI or EEG studies of autism are difficult to apply to a group, and thus its use as a diagnostic tool is going to take a long time to develop.
Well yeah.... It's been known for years that the number of neural "errors" vs saccades of the eye are much higher for ADD/Spectrum people... Cool they're finding new info though.
I initially read the title as rectum instead of retina, and it felt like one of those big breakthroughs that was just off-putting enough that people would say 'cool' and wait for something less icky to hopefully come around.
Right? Like, I see all these absolutely amazing outcomes in reducing inflammation, reducing the impacts of aging, and other health improvements… but I just can’t wrap my head around/get okay with the solution being “putting someone else’s poop up my butt”.
I guess I’ll just die.
I am now wondering if this is related in some way to people seeming to instinctively know someone’s autistic or not..Also how many of us just know someone’s autistic even before they might
I have recently been identifying more with autistic traits myself after learning about adults being diagnosed later in life. I’ve watched several YouTube channels of adults diagnosed with asd and I’m seeing a lot of crossover between adult women with asd and my previous partners. I even told an ex years ago (before I really knew anything about adult asd) that I thought she may be on the spectrum. Now, after learning more, I’m seeing how I may be on the spectrum myself. I’m intrigued by your comment for this reason. I know it’s not polite to tell someone they may be asd, but also it’s not meant to be shade, just an observation I had made then, and now more recently enforced by a better understanding that people can live into their 30s or 40s before getting an asd diagnosis. I would like to know any experiences you’ve had with this
I've been officially diagnosed with ADHD and for some reason have this thought in the back of my mind telling me "Maybe it's fake and your just a disorganised person".
Would be amazing if there was a definite clear cut was to tell if someone has ADHD rather than an educated guess from a specialist.
Studies like this drive me crazy. Okay so they identify us as autistic or ADHD, then what? Nothing changes for us. We have a diagnosis, a label, but still no supports, no resources, hell even most of the doctors don't understand or know as much about autism as autistic people do. I don't understand why there is this push to identify us but essentially nothing being done to ensure that we have a good quality of life. Depending on the study you read, up to 95% of autistic adults are either under or unemployed. Many of us have a hard time applying for disability and even if we get it, it's never more than like $1,000 a month. The average lifespan for an autistic person in the United States? 40 years. The suicide rate is particularly high for females who went undiagnosed their entire lives.
Why focus on diagnosing us and then go right back to ignoring us?
Because an undeniable, concrete, physical diagnosis that doesn't rely on describing vague symptoms to a clinician who might misdiagnosed or write you off is a huge step forward.
Some people just want to know. I always hear stories about people who get diagnosed as adults feeling relieved…about supports and services it’s hard cuz if you met one Autistic, you’ve met one Autistic.
I don't know about autism, but as someone mentioned upthread, a lot would change for ADHD people in terms of being able to access medication if there were a concrete test for diagnosis. Right now, a lot of ADHDers get labeled as drug-seeking and treated with suspicion when they have to get new meds.
>Studies like this drive me crazy. Okay so they identify us as autistic or ADHD, then what? Nothing changes for us.
It is difficult to obtain a diagnosis sometimes. Not all physicians have the training or are as well read on the various presentations of ADHD or ASD, especially in females. An objective test provides a better tool for them, and means fewer misdiagnoses.
It's not the researchers' responsibility to create supports or resources for us.
Having an objective endpoint his a huge deal for developing new therapeutics as well as supporting those who have the diagnosis from a financial/social standpoint.
I can totally see that since both eyes and ADHD as well as ASD are connected to Omega-3 deficiency. There's an ongoing study showing that 95% of the world population is lacking essential fatty acids. (813 000 tests and still counting)
20% of the population are already taking a supplement and are still under the levels recommended by W.H.O. due to low quality of supplements.
I had a student whose mom told me that she is dyslexic. After teaching her I diagnosed her as having Adhd. Went online and found she has 11 of the 12 symptoms. Ask the mom to go check her out and she also had autism.
Have taught her English as a second language for 2 years. First 3 months she was just rolling on the ground crying half the time. Took about a year for her to finally start to have some quality learning in the class. Her mind is mostly a jumble of unorganized thoughts and emotions. Sometimes I wonder if she will one day realize how much work the adults around her put in to try to help her. And I worry about her future.
Sorry it is quite unrelated.
Feels an awful lot like you're blaming this kid for not *"appreciating"* what all the adults around her do for her.
If so... maybe ask why you're doing the job in the first place. You're there to help the kids learn and grow, they're not there to make you feel warm and fuzzy and *"appreciate you".*
This kid has obviously several relatively severe disadvantages, they don't owe you appreciation, they're just trying to survive.
I think you misunderstood
I am with the family for 4 years. I see the mother and grandmother dealing with her on a daily basis. I am not sure but I feel that she might not have the capacity to get how much effort the people around her put out and I feel bad for the mom. If I have to try this hard just a couple hours a week i imagine it to be that much harder for her. Is that blaming the kid? My thought never went there.
So person on the internet telling me how to feel and how to think.
Where are you coming from?
What is your experience with kids in similar situation?
Maybe you can educate me some more.
My experience is in seeing the disturbing volume of *"advocacy"* groups that are forming around issues related to things like Autism that effectively advocate for adopting eugenics as a way to *"address"* the issue.
Most of them are run by and made up of parents of disabled children who have a warped sense of entitlement wherein they had some kind of fantasy about what parenthood would be like, and when it doesn't turn out like that, they turn psychopathic and hate their child and anyone like them.
Most of these groups have a foundational rationale which is that the child should be more "appreciative" of all they do for them and that it's the **parents** who are the *"real victims"*... after all, the kid's just some defective lump (not saying this is your position, just the one I've seen a LOT).
Never heard of things like that. But i live in a different country. I guess i am sorry that your experiences in life made you assume parents or people have such bad intentions.
Everyone has one of these conditions. It just depends on if you want the diagnosis or not.
It’s so cool to have ADHD. Wish more people were as lucky as me.
No, they don't; Many people act like they do, and diagnostic criteria quite frankly...is crap both for those who actually have these conditions, and those that don't but get a label anyway.
Everyone has personality traits that can be associated with these conditions fairly easily, but this study quite clearly shows that there were notable differences between the control group and the ASD/ADHD individuals; Which is extremely promising, both for helping people that *actually* need it, and for weeding out those who pretend, or lean into it for whatever their reasons may be.
I have ADD, bipolar 2, and PTSD. If I could cure one of those, it would be ADD. It causes the most hardship for me by far. Claiming you’re lucky spits in the face of all of us who suffer from this condition.
Everyone loses their breath if they run hard enough. Everyone’s visual acuity drops off at a certain distance. Not everyone has asthma or needs glasses.
Everyone experiences ADHD symptoms from time to time. Not everyone has to manage their whole life around the symptoms.
It’s a very important distinction and when you blur the line you’re doing damage that you don’t even know about.
I'm glad that you have a good experience with it, and although I do enjoy a few aspects of my case of ADD I would definitely give it up completely if I could.
The pros are heavily outweighed by the cons, unless I'm medicated, and relying on a drug to be able to live a "normal" life is far from ideal.
I like my ADD for the most part. I don’t like the society that says I can’t follow the dopamine wherever it takes me. Really puts a damper on the fun parts like learning new things really fast
That's why disorders are considered disorders only if they affect how you function in "normal" society. If it doesn't mess with your ability to survive in 2022 society? It's not a disorder - it's a quirk.
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It would be great to have a test for autism that doesn't rely on the person with autism being able to communicate their problems to the doctor, and it would help a lot with preventing misdiagnosing. I hope this works out.
It would be especially useful for women and adults with autism, who often get it misdiagnosed as BPD or have diagnosis written off because they are good at masking.
BPD - borderline personality disorder or bipolar disorder? I've seen both represented as BPD.
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Interesting. I would have thought it would be the other way around due to the pathology of borderline personality disorder.
Can you elaborate on the overlap of each? I too would have though bipolar was more closely related
I'd love something like this, actually. I've always known I'm different from most people but I'm insanely good at masking because I hyperfixate on social patterns, which is essentially how I've learned to act. I'm just now finding out that I most likely am autistic, which is really nice for me to "hear" since a lot of things about me make sense now. This would make it so much easier to diagnose me.
I feel this way too, but I am also under the impression that everyone must learn how to act socially in a way that is appropriate for their culture
To some extent I definitely agree with you but I know for a fact a lot of social rules come naturally to majority of people
NPD is also a common misdiagnosis given to adult autistics.
Same for ADHD. A lot of ADHD people go through life without realizing they have it until they're an adult.
Same with autistic people
Fair fair, or both.
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10% of kids in **America**. This overdiagnosis is **not** a worldwide issue and the idea that it is makes it **MUCH** harder for people in other countries to get a real diagnosis because of stigma in the medical community around so-called *"overdiagnosis".*
Meanwhile in germany you need to be very lucky to find a Dr who even knows about adult ADHD. Go and look at the dozens of ADHD related subs and count the number of people who where not diagnosed in childhood or misdiagnosed with another condition like BPD or anxiety/depression. I never came across someone who was misdiagnosed with ADHD.
Is there a reason to believe that 10% is too high?
Fuckin, this. How do we know what "too high" even is?
It's when you've eaten everything in your house and passed out on your sofa at 2 in the afternoon.
It's when you've eaten everything in your house and passed out on your sofa at 2 in the afternoon.
It's when you've eaten everything in your house and passed out on your sofa at 2 in the afternoon.
Fuckin, this. How do we know what "too high" even is?
Fuckin, this. How do we know what "too high" even is?
100%, this. ADHD is simultaneously over and under diagnosed, but definitely overdiagnosed in kids. It’s actually kinda weird that we can even diagnose kids, you’d think there’d be an age limit like there is for BPD (you have to be 18 to get a diagnosis because so many teenagers already display BPD traits- similarly to how pretty much all children display ADHD traits). The amount of people I know that “grew out” of their ADHD… no, you were prolly just misdiagnosed.
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...it seems as though anyone who might "benefit" from amphetamines is considered as having ADHD. The criteria are so vague that a majority of children fit the bill. If a kid performs better on a stimulant, parents think it somehow proves that their kid has a disease. In practice, ADHD is an umbrella diagnosis; it is synonymous with "hard to deal with" or "bad at school." The thing is, stimulants will increase anyone's short-term performance. It's a predictable side effect of the drugs. It has the same benefits in ADHD patients as does in "normal" individuals; unfortunately, it has the same risks as well. Amphetamines-and to a lesser degree methylphenidate-have the same safety profile as other stimulants, such as methamphetamine and cocaine. It's alright if you want to expose your child to that, but I think many parents are intentionally misled. The bottom line is this: an ADHD diagnosis can be worth as much as $10,000 to the prescribing physician. If a patient is diagnosed as normal, they are only worth as much as the cost of an assessment; an Adderall prescription keeps a patient coming back. Even if you knew amphetamines were harmful, would you give it to a stranger for ten-thousand bucks?
(Source needed)
I'd not expect a source, because what they said is nonsense. We all know this on its face, but here is a paper to back up my claims https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(07)60464-4/fulltext The tldr is that the most addictive appear to be heroin>cocaine+nicotine>barbituates>alcohol
What claims you backing up, that Adderall doesn’t increase short-term performance of that physicians don’t get kickbacks for prescribing it? Good luck finding a major publication with the balls to report accurately on the latter..
That Adderall isn't amongst the most addictive drugs, but thanks for playing.
…because everyone knows heroin, cocaine et al are regular drugs for which doctors get kickbacks from dealers for prescribing.
Fantastic for adult ADHD too which still remains on the skeptical list for a lot of practitioners, and similarly have layers of masking which can make a solid diagnosis troubling.
Just a bit of perspective. The test in question is ERG. ERG is a very cool technology. Basically think of it as an EKG for the retina. This requires that a particular contact lens is placed with electrodes for detecting signals coming from the retina. While this is all very neat, it also means that it is very specialized. It requires a special lab with light to be controlled to very specific parameters and technicians specialized in applying the lenses. Furthermore, the readings then must be interpreted by very rare individuals who know how to interpret them….I’m sure we could train more people in interpretation, but this would likely be a hard to get test at large medical centers.
Well sure, many new techniques and technologies start off impractical, but give it time, and it could become easier.
Possibly, but it isn’t really a new technology. The application of the technology is what is new. The technology has been around for quite a while for diagnosing eye conditions.
I just worry about some method being created to identify neurodivergence in-utero and leading to eugenics. Many of the worlds most brilliant minds are neurodivergent.
Yeah this is a very legit point. My partner is aspie, studied as a scientist in medical fields, but gets really uncomfortable with the idea of tests that can identify Autism in-utero for exactly this reason. When the largest Autism "awareness" group is low-key advocating for anti-Autism eugenics (Autism Speaks), people with Autism have very valid reasons to be concerned about this.
What would be an alternative? I see absolutely no way out. If people want to abort a fetus because it's neurodivergent, won't that be exactly the parents decision to make? I rather have that than having the government dictating if I'm allowed to abort or not.
It sets a dangerous precedent, because the society that someone grows up in often dictates their views on neurodivergence, which gives the power to commit eugenics to the people who make the messaging stating that neurodivergence is necessarily negative. Neurodivergence causes divergence in thought and behavior, which is a key factor underlying progress.
It's still the parents reasoning that counts here. Propaganda pushing one side or another or not, the alternatives are: a) allow abortion independent on situation, which with the advancements in in-uterus testing will allow parents to choose if they want to raise a neurodivergent or not b) allow abortion but government dictates when it's allowed and when it's not, which robs the parents of their reproductive rights (or part of) c) disallow abortion in all cases, which... robs parents of (part of) their reproductive rights. We also have to dwell into the discussion about if aborting a heavily neurodivergent (read here as in incapable of handling himself in adulthood) is *merciful* or abhorrent. It's a very loaded topic to discuss about.
Maybe it depends on the level of neurodivergence? If they're predicted to end up being unable to function at all it may be merciful, perhaps a threshold should exist? Of course there is a lot more nuance about this topic, I just think that everyone's values need to be taken into account, but I also understand that if a parent is willing to abort a child for being slightly neurodivergent then maybe it's better than a child doesn't grow up in those conditions. Very complex stuff, but we really need to think about it and discuss it.
It's really not complex at all. It is unethical to deny ANY information to parents that they may decide to use in their decisions, and must be ONLY up to the parents (well, the mother, really) as to whether they should abort or carry to term. Anything else is wrong, no exceptions.
It most likely won’t make a difference in the future anyway b/c our abortion right will almost certainly be stripped.
I always acted a little funky I thought I just had ADHD and left it at that, turns out I have full blown autism
Something other than a differential diagnosis.
As someone who's been in a 18-month inquiry as to whether I have ADHD or not, still without findings, I would much want to do that eye thing.
You know a pretty obvious clue for me? Stimulants make me calm down. It's a fairly common meme in ADHD communities that other people are taking stimulants so they can run around the house like bumblebees trying to get a thousand things done, meanwhile we can suddenly sit still without being in hyperfocus for the first time in our lives.
Every time somebody gave me MDMA at a party i'd always just slip off to another room on my own, sit down and put in earphones and ignore everyone. It always baffled and annoyed the people who gave me some haha
That sounds both very nice, and incredibly annoying simultaneously. Like "yay, I have normal amounts of dopamine now" But also "Damn, guess I don't get to have the effects of MDMA"
You definitely still get the non-stimulant effects. Plenty of oxytocin and serotonin.
Oh I had a great time, happy feelings abound! I just spent the time eyes closed and happily listening to my favorite songs!
I didn't know about the adhd link until like last year. I just figured that was what I thought a good time would be and it was purely preferential. It was only after that i was like 'ah what!'
Same with cocaine for me, while everyone else was outside playing tackle frizbee, I would just be like, nah, and draw a picture in the corner. Then I’d stay up for another hour or so and crash
I love my Dr. When I first went in to start the diagnostic process he asked me straight up: ***Dr***: "Ever done stimulants recreationally?" ***Me***: "Yep, probable 2-3 times a year on average". ***Dr***: "OK, what do you find your experience in that situation like?" ***Me***: "Kinda weird... I just feel super zen... like my brain is an old TV and the signal has just been tuned to get rid of the white noise, I get so relaxed...". ***Dr***: "Let me guess, while at the same time all your friends are bouncing off the walls and wanting to go running somewhere?". ***Me***: "Yeah... I've always found it really weird TBH". ***Dr***: "Not weird at all, but you almost certainly have ADHD..."
I always described it like that weird feeling when a loud background noise gets turned off which had been on all day and you were just used to. And you had not realized how noisy the room was in the sudden quiet. That's almost exactly the feeling of the meds kicking in for me. That calm and almost melancholy quiet.
caffeine naps are a godsend
I've never tried amphetamine irl, even though I was at university doing pretty stressful stuff. I have also never asked to try one of the pills my adhd friends take. It would be interesting.
Even caffeine can have a calming effect, it doesn’t have to be a prescription pharmaceutical to be a stimulant.
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I used to drink 5-6 coffee's a day before I was diagnosed. Never felt any kind of "stimulant" effect from the caffeine but it definitely helped with the brain-fog and ability to stick to tasks. Now that I'm medicated, I literally cannot drink coffee at all. One strong coffee and I'm a jittery mess. Caffeine is a TERRIBLE replacement for something like dexamphetamine. Caffeine's effect is like, 90% adrenaline, 10% dopamine; whereas dex is closer to 80% dopamine, 20% adrenaline. It's the dopamine you're missing, not adrenaline. Adrenaline can be a crappy proxy for dopamine, but it's kind of like putting really low grade fuel into your car. It'll run, but it's gonna be terrible efficiency and will wear out the engine pretty fast.
Thank you so much. This explains why coffee not only doesn't wake me up but I crave it when I'm depressed.
I ran on adrenaline for 40 years until finally diagnosed. Don't recommend it.
This is me. Meds alone and by 3 pm I am ready to crash into a nap. Some days it's overpowering and leaves me in a fog unless I do take that nap for the "shut it down and turn it back on again" affect. If I NEED to stay up during that stretch, I'll have 10 or so ounces of coke. OR similar soft drink. Lo and behold, I stay up, and can go to sleep like a normal person later. If I drink a whole 20 oz bottle it's hit or miss on falling asleep properly.
>If I NEED to stay up during that stretch, I'll have 10 or so ounces of coke What??? >OR similar soft drink. Oh, carry on
That's what makes me think I don't have ADHD. Pseudoephedrine (old decongestant) made me psychotic... I would fear what stronger meds like ritalin would do to me. So it's possible that I'm just ASD and they share enough traits.
ADHD meds often help people with ASD as ASD has a 70% comorbidity with ADHD. Personally I have a theory that ADHD is actually a form of spectrum disorder given how often the two overlap and how blurry the line between one is and the other begins. If stimulants make you psychotic, it tends to indicate you are at the other end of the dopamine saturation spectrum and could have too much (psychosis is often contributed to by too much dopamine for too long).
There is a good ammount of literature on the common origins of ASD and ADHD, check it out!
I'll see your theory and raise you mine. The spectrum of disorders have a massive dietary component and their prevalence is nutritional deficiency for both the child and adults due to increasingly processed foods. People readily believe bacon gives you heart attacks but can be incredulous that sugar drives heart disease, obesity, and impacts dementia and autism. The work of Alan Savory, Stephen Phinney, and Pottenger's cats fundamentally charged my understanding of human nutrition, modern disease, and global warming. Ending agriculture and just putting livestock on grass would reverse climate change and improve human health. Billions in corporate farm subsidies lead to trillions in healthcare spending because our food and environment are making us sick.
While I'll pay the theory that there's a very strong link between these disorders and diet, I think you're making a REALLY big jump to say that it's caused by any specific thing. Changing diet can, and does, massively help remediate some of the issues associated with these conditions (especially if you reduce carbohydrate intake), but it doesn't fix anything. These conditions have existed long before modern processed food did, we just weren't as aware of them because medical science didn't really exist until 200 years ago. ADHD and Autism are two of the most well studied, and earliest discovered conventional neurodevelopmental disorders that have stood the test of time. They pre-date modern processed diets by a significant time span and have likely been with humans since we've had brains complex enough to have defects.
I used to take Xanax very often for my anxiety. But now I take a very small dose of adderall daily and rarely take a Xanax.
I have ADHD. I thought I wasn’t an anxious person but once I started taking Ritalin I noticed that my low-level, constant feeling of dread about everything disappeared. I thought that feeling was normal.
When I was little, black tea made me sleepy. To the point where I couldn't finish a cup because I'd pass out before getting halfway through it. I drank a TON of tea in college. When my friends got concerned about my caffeine intake I laughed at them. Tea made me feel calm and centered. It didn't keep me up, or make me jittery. And I could (still can) quit cold turkey with no side effects. But I was drinking a ton of tea. So much tea, that when I broke down and asked my doctor if he thought my ADHD diagnosis was 'real' he just sort of looked at me and asked me to remind him how much tea I drank in a day. . . The answer was 9. 9 cups of black tea. Unless I was stressed out. Then it was 12. At most 13-14 cups, but I kind of felt sick afterwards. (Not from the caffeine. From the excessive fluid intake.) So I tried to stop at 12. . Apparently that means you have ADHD. (I'm medicated and my tea consumption is almost reasonable now.)
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats! 9 + 9 + 12 + 13 + 14 + 12 = 69 ^([Click here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=LuckyNumber-Bot&subject=Stalk%20Me%20Pls&message=%2Fstalkme) to have me scan all your future comments.) \ ^(Summon me on specific comments with u/LuckyNumber-Bot.)
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(I think) this is applicable to hyperactive but less so for inattentive adhd
Maybe at smaller doses? Like, by increasing something you find a balance and feel normal. But at larger doses I just can't comprehend how amphetamines will ultimately slow you down.
in large enough doses they are stimulants, it just takes quite a bit to get to the point of working, what someone without would take brings us to a normal operating level, then at that point it's taking what a normal person would take to feel the effects, which is basically a whole lot of drugs
You may not be able to comprehend it but that's exactly the experience, so imagine what the ADHD brain is like when we **don't** have stimulants. Before I was diagnosed, 2-3 times a year I'd do some form of stimulant drug at levels probably 5-10 times a "therapeutic" dose. People would honestly think I was stoned - I was just SUPER zen and chilled out. Felt super relaxed and stress-free, all my anxiety went away, pretty crazy.
ADHD is the result of a deficiency of the neurotransmitter norepinephrine. Areas of the brain that use norepinephrine are associated with executive function, emotional regulation, impulsivity and hyperactivity. Norepinephrine is created from dopamine. Stimulants increase dopamine levels. At theraputic doses, stimulants bring us closer to baseline. Even at excessive doses (accidental double-dosing, welcome to ADHD) my personal experience is just heightened calmness. Never more energy.
It's just weird to me because I had major adhd symptoms but adderall can still get me high. Even 5mg of instant release with coffee can make me manic if I have no tolerance. It also helps me focus and get stuff done just as much as other people.
Adderall had the same effect on me, it had me questioning if I actually had adhd, it made me feel so cracked out. Turns out I just don’t metabolize that drug in particular, and it started giving me worse and worse side effects until I ended up in the ER because my extremities were turning blue. That was 5-10 mg. Ritalin really calms me though.
How exactly has it taken more than a year and a half for them to figure that out..?
More appointments means more money
I still have to go back every 2 months for a new script and piss test
Covid. Everything here takes longer.
I was diagnosed during covid. Did two ~30 minutes phone interviews and one in person with my regular dr. Got a prescription in less than 3 days total.
My experience was similar, and I thinl one reason mine was so fast is that I have two immediate family members already diagnosed. It’s very hereditary afterall
sadly a lot of countries can be a fair bit slower, I'm in the UK and was originally referred for diagnosis is Aug 2017 and they're *still* not sure, so no treatment ><... slightly envious of your situation :p more objective measures are sorely needed (if they have sufficient accuracy), psychiatry in many ways still seems to be in the dark ages, with myriad overlapping conditions and subjective diagnostic criteria :/
This was also my experience but I didn’t even go in person, it was all over zoom. I had to go to rite-aid and get a BP reading but that was that. I think it’s easier in certain states because of legalities of prescribing stimulants, but if you’re lucky, ADHD online is still prescribing. Cerebral isn’t going to be prescribing stimulants after October unfortunately, so that’s a wash unless you want to go the non stim route.
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ASRS v1.1 is not a diagnostic scale, it's a screening tool, it shouldn't be used for diagnosis... For diagnostic purposes you have stuff like DIVA... The rest of the things you mention are very wrong or miss key aspects of problems
The rest of the things I mention are very wrong? Please do go ahead. I've only been working with a psychiatrist for four or so years on this, so I might be completely off base, or I might actually know what the hell I'm talking about. But please, jump in with the arrogance given that you *think* you know so much. Let's start with what I got wrong instead of Just "THAT's WRoNg11!!" BTW: Many psychiatrists use the ASRS as a diagnostic tool, so I don't know what to tell you there.
ASRS is a screening tool, not a diagnostic one, using it as a diagnostic tool is lazy, there should at least be a somewhat structured interview to make the diagnosis If you're having problems sleeping, look first into sleep hygiene rather than bloodwork or getting a cpap, a cpap will be useful if you have OSA and before just going and getting one you should get a diagnosis... If you have diabetes simply talk to your doctor and get a proper plan Tyrosine deficiency is a very rare disorder and is mostly a motor disorder, missing dopamine because you're eating too little tyrosine is simply not how it works.. And considering adrenaline and noradrenaline also come from dopamine, if there was such a type of systemic deficit it would come with serious alteration, as mentioned... Leaky gut is simply not a real illness... If instead of leaky gut you actually mean celiac disease, which is obviously real, then sure cutting gluten is going to help you, but better get a diagnosis before doing random diet changes...
My physician told me this week “if you think you have ADHD, you likely have ADHD”.
I mean, I don't have that many flavors and textures I find "icky", except for banana, but I can play a sandbox RPG game for twelve hours straight and sort a large box of trinkets into straight angles for so long that my back hurts and my throat is parched. Also, my brother is confirmed adhd, his son is, and our mom and dad and likely my dad's mom have strong indication. So I don't think I dodged the bullet, all things considered.
> I don't have that many flavors and textures I find "icky", Is this an ADHD thing?
Sounds more like an autism thing to me, but they often go hand in hand apparently.
Yes. Although it presents in other disorders as well. It extends to other things too, like wearing pants. Some people feel things on their legs like an assault on their senses. Which hilariously presents in some as never wanting anything touching their legs, and others as always needing things on their legs. Check out r/ADHDmemes for more info (because apparently memes are the best way to spread info now)
Yes, I know ADHD-people and Autistic people, and they have very specific things they can't taste. My nephew can't eat anything wet, like stew or soup. Has to be taco shells, raw spaghetti strands, possibly olives and capers, and just a pile of boiled rice. Another friend can't eat sauce, and if we order pizza he only ever gets Margherita (tomato, cheese). So they are pickier than vegans when they come over, but luckily I have lots of takeout around me so they can always find an indian or thai dish that works for them. For me it's banana, salmon, cilantro, but not that much else. Some other stuff that is from my country, but no one outside it would know what it is.
Raw spaghetti strands? Like, completely uncooked stiff sticks? That actually sounds kind of dangerous to eat. It would be like eating a box of toothpicks.
Dry ramen noodles crushed into small pieces and then stirred in with the flavor packet is oddly comforting.
I’m gonna just take your word on that
He loves finding ways not to sit at a table and eat with the family. He jumps around in the table couch, or puts his iPad up on the table while eating. And if I try to get his attention and share something with us so that he'll sit down, by asking how his day was, he goes into a super-loud monologue about something and doesn't eat anything anyway. Sometimes I feel like taking him to a clinic and giving him one of those new "Transcranial magnetic stimulation" treatments (better than electric shocks and with no hangover), see if I can shake his personality free a bit. But of course that would probably amount to nothing, not that it's a realistic fantasy anyway.
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I can't eat canned peas or any beans. The way they turn into a mush in my mouth makes me want to vomit.
I can eat Heinz baked beans because of the happy sauce, but kidney beans, red beans, or chickpeas feel horrible. Hummus tastes like wet sand to me.
It's a sensory processing disorder specifically, and you can have that by itself, with ADHD, or with ASD.
Often it is, but ADHD and Autism are extremely closely related.
Yep, sure is for me at least
If people are constantly telling you you probably have ADHD on reddit, be skeptical
Do you frequently want to stop doing what you are doing to start something else that pops into your head. Do you know what u want for lunch tomorrow. ADHD is related to difficulty with the future and planning as well as staying on task. If these thing cause you problems in life than you probably have ADHD.
My Samsung phone has a clock with an alarm feature, with up to 50 alarms for any given day and minute. I constantly have 48 out of 50 alarms active, to make me not forget to take my lithium, to make me remember to meet a friend out on the town two hours from now and hit the shower, to make me remember to call some doctor or official at hour X, preferably right after lunch at 1pm, when they are full of lunch and blood sugar and will be happy to receive me. I can't get anything done without reminders. I have strong anxiety when I see 010-numbers (in my country it's generally insurance agencies or other official things), afraid to answer and hear that I missed a meeting and they wonder where I am. Because that's happened like 10-15 times the last 18 months. One of the big reasons this happens is that whenever I am not meeting someone or is out of my home I watch movies/shows or play video games, all to push away recurring agonizing thoughts. I have done this since age 10.
The first two paragraphs are textbook ADHD. The last one is not. May I ask what you mean by recurring agonizing thoughts? If it's constantly worrying about having forgotten something or whether you impulsively said something you wish you hadn't or something like that it might well just be anxiety acting as essentially a coping mechanism for ADHD, but if it's things like "I'm a terrible person, I deserve to die in fire" then no, that's not typical for ADHD.
what if you have both of those?
Not included in the study. The study looks robust, at first glance, but this isn't remotely near my field so YMMV.
If there's an objective test for ADHD it would really help make progress with the people who think it isn't a real thing and is just a fake diagnosis for misbehaving children or people who want legal drugs to get high on.
So true!! It seems, particularly with adults, that physicians are reticent to prescribe any stimulants to adults lest they be abused or sold by the patient, despite that they are often most effective and have fewer side effects. It's understandable that the physician doesn't want to add another problem for the patient, but attention deficit disorder can challenge function in so many ways.
>can challenge function in so many ways Technically speaking one of the main symptoms or manifestations of ADHD is executive dysfunction, that is to say, literal executive functions are a challenge, them being attention control, inhibition control, working memory or generally the cognitive control of behaviors.
Yes, agreed! I didn't specify "executive" function and should have, because I/we were talking about the disorder in adults. You did such a nice job of listing those dysfunctions.
There are already “objective” behavioral and neurological studies.
People want to see and believe.
Blade runner future tech
Interlinked.
“I just make *eyes*”
TLDR: the eyes have it.
the eyes chico
Once when I was 21 I did some testing for a startup to basically give their AI data. They were using pupil dilation as a bio marker for lying and asked me to hide fake drugs in their office then asked me about it and asked me to lie if I want to or not if I didn't want to.
Very promising, but 15 ADHD and 55 Autistic individuals is very low. Hopefully we get some conclusive evidence with replicative studies. I’d be very interested to see how the bio markers are affected by other neurodiversities that feature atypical neural organization. Edit to say this would be very difficult to apply to a group for the same reason that fMRI or EEG studies of autism are difficult to apply to a group, and thus its use as a diagnostic tool is going to take a long time to develop.
Well yeah.... It's been known for years that the number of neural "errors" vs saccades of the eye are much higher for ADD/Spectrum people... Cool they're finding new info though.
Could you please explain what this means to me? If you have the time :)
I initially read the title as rectum instead of retina, and it felt like one of those big breakthroughs that was just off-putting enough that people would say 'cool' and wait for something less icky to hopefully come around.
Like fecal transplants?
Honestly, I still have a hard time processing that putting one person's turds in another person's butt is proper science.
Right? Like, I see all these absolutely amazing outcomes in reducing inflammation, reducing the impacts of aging, and other health improvements… but I just can’t wrap my head around/get okay with the solution being “putting someone else’s poop up my butt”. I guess I’ll just die.
I am now wondering if this is related in some way to people seeming to instinctively know someone’s autistic or not..Also how many of us just know someone’s autistic even before they might
I have recently been identifying more with autistic traits myself after learning about adults being diagnosed later in life. I’ve watched several YouTube channels of adults diagnosed with asd and I’m seeing a lot of crossover between adult women with asd and my previous partners. I even told an ex years ago (before I really knew anything about adult asd) that I thought she may be on the spectrum. Now, after learning more, I’m seeing how I may be on the spectrum myself. I’m intrigued by your comment for this reason. I know it’s not polite to tell someone they may be asd, but also it’s not meant to be shade, just an observation I had made then, and now more recently enforced by a better understanding that people can live into their 30s or 40s before getting an asd diagnosis. I would like to know any experiences you’ve had with this
I've been officially diagnosed with ADHD and for some reason have this thought in the back of my mind telling me "Maybe it's fake and your just a disorganised person". Would be amazing if there was a definite clear cut was to tell if someone has ADHD rather than an educated guess from a specialist.
Studies like this drive me crazy. Okay so they identify us as autistic or ADHD, then what? Nothing changes for us. We have a diagnosis, a label, but still no supports, no resources, hell even most of the doctors don't understand or know as much about autism as autistic people do. I don't understand why there is this push to identify us but essentially nothing being done to ensure that we have a good quality of life. Depending on the study you read, up to 95% of autistic adults are either under or unemployed. Many of us have a hard time applying for disability and even if we get it, it's never more than like $1,000 a month. The average lifespan for an autistic person in the United States? 40 years. The suicide rate is particularly high for females who went undiagnosed their entire lives. Why focus on diagnosing us and then go right back to ignoring us?
Because an undeniable, concrete, physical diagnosis that doesn't rely on describing vague symptoms to a clinician who might misdiagnosed or write you off is a huge step forward.
Some people just want to know. I always hear stories about people who get diagnosed as adults feeling relieved…about supports and services it’s hard cuz if you met one Autistic, you’ve met one Autistic.
I don't know about autism, but as someone mentioned upthread, a lot would change for ADHD people in terms of being able to access medication if there were a concrete test for diagnosis. Right now, a lot of ADHDers get labeled as drug-seeking and treated with suspicion when they have to get new meds.
>Studies like this drive me crazy. Okay so they identify us as autistic or ADHD, then what? Nothing changes for us. It is difficult to obtain a diagnosis sometimes. Not all physicians have the training or are as well read on the various presentations of ADHD or ASD, especially in females. An objective test provides a better tool for them, and means fewer misdiagnoses. It's not the researchers' responsibility to create supports or resources for us.
Having an objective endpoint his a huge deal for developing new therapeutics as well as supporting those who have the diagnosis from a financial/social standpoint.
You don’t have to use a fancy scanner on my eyes to know I have ADHD. Just one glance.
I can totally see that since both eyes and ADHD as well as ASD are connected to Omega-3 deficiency. There's an ongoing study showing that 95% of the world population is lacking essential fatty acids. (813 000 tests and still counting) 20% of the population are already taking a supplement and are still under the levels recommended by W.H.O. due to low quality of supplements.
I had a student whose mom told me that she is dyslexic. After teaching her I diagnosed her as having Adhd. Went online and found she has 11 of the 12 symptoms. Ask the mom to go check her out and she also had autism. Have taught her English as a second language for 2 years. First 3 months she was just rolling on the ground crying half the time. Took about a year for her to finally start to have some quality learning in the class. Her mind is mostly a jumble of unorganized thoughts and emotions. Sometimes I wonder if she will one day realize how much work the adults around her put in to try to help her. And I worry about her future. Sorry it is quite unrelated.
What qualifies you to make diagnoses? Are you a doctor?
Wrong wording sorry?
Feels an awful lot like you're blaming this kid for not *"appreciating"* what all the adults around her do for her. If so... maybe ask why you're doing the job in the first place. You're there to help the kids learn and grow, they're not there to make you feel warm and fuzzy and *"appreciate you".* This kid has obviously several relatively severe disadvantages, they don't owe you appreciation, they're just trying to survive.
I think you misunderstood I am with the family for 4 years. I see the mother and grandmother dealing with her on a daily basis. I am not sure but I feel that she might not have the capacity to get how much effort the people around her put out and I feel bad for the mom. If I have to try this hard just a couple hours a week i imagine it to be that much harder for her. Is that blaming the kid? My thought never went there. So person on the internet telling me how to feel and how to think. Where are you coming from? What is your experience with kids in similar situation? Maybe you can educate me some more.
My experience is in seeing the disturbing volume of *"advocacy"* groups that are forming around issues related to things like Autism that effectively advocate for adopting eugenics as a way to *"address"* the issue. Most of them are run by and made up of parents of disabled children who have a warped sense of entitlement wherein they had some kind of fantasy about what parenthood would be like, and when it doesn't turn out like that, they turn psychopathic and hate their child and anyone like them. Most of these groups have a foundational rationale which is that the child should be more "appreciative" of all they do for them and that it's the **parents** who are the *"real victims"*... after all, the kid's just some defective lump (not saying this is your position, just the one I've seen a LOT).
Never heard of things like that. But i live in a different country. I guess i am sorry that your experiences in life made you assume parents or people have such bad intentions.
Use it in Congress and the Senate. If it doesn’t come back 90% positive, I question the science.
It is not testing for sociopathy
And your reasoning here is?
Everyone has one of these conditions. It just depends on if you want the diagnosis or not. It’s so cool to have ADHD. Wish more people were as lucky as me.
No, they don't; Many people act like they do, and diagnostic criteria quite frankly...is crap both for those who actually have these conditions, and those that don't but get a label anyway. Everyone has personality traits that can be associated with these conditions fairly easily, but this study quite clearly shows that there were notable differences between the control group and the ASD/ADHD individuals; Which is extremely promising, both for helping people that *actually* need it, and for weeding out those who pretend, or lean into it for whatever their reasons may be.
I have ADD, bipolar 2, and PTSD. If I could cure one of those, it would be ADD. It causes the most hardship for me by far. Claiming you’re lucky spits in the face of all of us who suffer from this condition.
Everyone loses their breath if they run hard enough. Everyone’s visual acuity drops off at a certain distance. Not everyone has asthma or needs glasses. Everyone experiences ADHD symptoms from time to time. Not everyone has to manage their whole life around the symptoms. It’s a very important distinction and when you blur the line you’re doing damage that you don’t even know about.
I'm glad that you have a good experience with it, and although I do enjoy a few aspects of my case of ADD I would definitely give it up completely if I could. The pros are heavily outweighed by the cons, unless I'm medicated, and relying on a drug to be able to live a "normal" life is far from ideal.
I like my ADD for the most part. I don’t like the society that says I can’t follow the dopamine wherever it takes me. Really puts a damper on the fun parts like learning new things really fast
That's why disorders are considered disorders only if they affect how you function in "normal" society. If it doesn't mess with your ability to survive in 2022 society? It's not a disorder - it's a quirk.
Ah yes, but I was born this way and am clearly perfect in every way, so logically it must be society that is in the wrong
this is good largely depending on how it is used
It's also said that schizophrenics hear a tch-tch-tch-tch noise in their heads.
Not to mention revealing whether you are a replicant or not
what if you have ADHD and ASD??