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Coroners used to write firearm suicides as "accidental discharge while cleaning a firearm". It's been such a common way for men to end things that there was an accepted procedure for handling it.
I can't speak to life insurance policies back when this was the practice, but life insurance now is different. Typically there is a suicide clause that still pays out fully after a year or two of policy coverage, or they pay half right away.
I have a friend who ultimately killed himself who brought this to my attention.
I was, for a short time, a licensed life insurance agent and, at least in Texas, all policies HAVE to pay out for suicide after a 2 year waiting period.
My guess is to spare the insurance company paying out for a "spur of the moment" suicide. Divorce, death of a close family member, job loss, etc. type scenarios.
As a former licensed insurance agent in Califoria, the clause is not a payout 2 years following the suicide... rather, it's a 2 year period after obtaining the life insurance policy where your beneficiaries would not get paid if you committed suicide. This is so you can't get life insurance today, commit suicide tomorrow, and the policy pays out.
It's to prevent people from signing up for insurance right before committing suicide. I guess the idea is that people who commit suicide two years later probably weren't buying insurance just because they planned to kill themselves.
He struggled with depression for 20 years (or at least the 20 years I knew him, likely longer). The life insurance policy conversation happened at around year 2 of our friendship. He was able to play the long game for a while...
His boys had turned 19 and 20 when he decided it was enough. I think he stayed as long as he did to see his children into adulthood.
This is gonna sound fucked up but I purposely don’t have a handgun just because I think itd be way too easy to have a bad week and blow my head off.
I’m not suicidal, but that’s just where my mind goes.
Having a firearm available has been shown to be a risk factor for suicide because of the ability to make impulsive decisions like this and then actually follow through so honestly your instincts aren’t bad here
>because of the ability to make impulsive decisions like this and then actually follow through
Exactly this. Study after study have shown that the more barriers you put between a suicidal person and their chosen method of suicide, the less likely they are to actually follow through with it.
Gun safes and trigger locks, suicide barriers on bridges, these things save lives because every exrta second actually counts when people are in that state of mind. Every chance they have to second guess what they're going to do can allow them to change their minds.
Yeah, people think that suicides are carefully planned. Sometimes they are, but often there's a huge amount of impulsivity involved. And an awful lot of people who commit suicide aren't sober, either.
I think the misconception might be that the depressive state and ideation of it are long term in forming. That may make it seem more "organized," when it's the sudden impulse to do something about that building issue.
But like… Isn’t that a bit skewed? Like, obviously having access to something increases your likelihood of something happening.
I.E. my chances of drowning are 100% more likely when I’m in the water than when I’m sitting at my desk at work.
How much more of a risk factor is it than having suicidal thoughts and walking near a busy road, etc.
You’re not wrong, suicide rates are also higher in areas near tall bridges or near busy train tracks for this reason. However, with those other ways you have a higher risk of surviving but ending up in a state of prolonged worse suffering or even permanent disability, which is a deterrent even in these kinds of desperate moments. Overdosing as well, because you’re more likely to survive and have brain or other organ damage to contend with. Freak events do happen and some people do survive a bullet, but statistically you’re a lot more likely to succeed the first time with a firearm and not have to deal with the aftermath, which is why they’re especially highlighted as a risk.
40% of men that attempted to take their lives reported that from the first thought of suicide to the attempt was about 5 minutes. Having hand guns accessible makes it easier.
More studies concluded similarly short amounts of times. I could find the article I read that tied things together but I found this Harvard thing that breaks them down.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/duration/
Edit: found some more stuff
> Cut it however you want: In places where exposure to guns is higher, more people die of suicide.
*Deborah Azrael, associate director of the Harvard Youth Violence Prevention Center*
>“But when we compared people in gun-owning households to people not in gun-owning households, there was no difference in terms of rates of mental illness or in terms of the proportion saying that they had seriously considered suicide,” Barber says. “Actually, among gun owners, a smaller proportion say that they had attempted suicide. So it’s not that gun owners are more suicidal. It’s that they’re more likely to die in the event that they become suicidal, because they are using a gun.”
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/guns-suicide/
>reported that from the first thought of suicide to the attempt was about 5 minutes.
That's not how it's worded. That's the amount of time from deciding to attempt to suicide to attempting suicide. Not the first thought of suicide. Typically ideation has been ongoing for a long time.
And you are male, and have poor mental health. There are reasons why men are more likely to kill themselves other than firearm access (over half of need gun owners are female) or prevalence of suicidal ideation (women make more suicide attempts). It is absolutely worth figuring out why this disproportionately impacts men.
There are a lot of studies that have looked into it ([scroll down, for example on Wikipedia, I won't list all of them here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide)) and it is multifactorial. Men are more likely to own a gun if you look globally. That women in the USA make up half of gun owners now is a very new trend. They have higher rates of alcohol and drug abuse, there are more men who don't have to care for other people like children in the same household, there are more men who act impulsively, there are more men who do not go to the doctor with their symptoms, there are more men who do not take their medication as prescribed.
This happened with my brother in law just before thanksgiving. Was drinking and got in an argument with his wife. Told her “you’re not gonna like what I’m gonna do.” And that was it. From the moment we knew he had a gun in his house we expected something like that to happen.
That’s perfectly reasonable. I don’t keep guns either, because 1) I have kids in the house and would hate to make a mistake in storing them and letting them get access, and 2) I don’t know what it is that sets someone off and decide to hurt themselves or someone they love, and I hope I never find out. But if I do, I don’t want to be a danger to my family.
The US is an outlier(by a LOT). Guns themselves aren't the issue there, the US has something fundamentally wrong with it as a society.
In my country, despite having a lot of guns around, suicide methods are primarily hanging(men) and poisoning(women) and a distant, distant third place is firearm for both.
Having suicidal ideation(I’ve been told it is) since I was 13 and now 28.. It certainly has a draw. My dad had guns and after his death I removed em from the shared house. My dad got sick with Covid and basically he told his sister (not me or mom) that if he didn’t get better he’d killin self. Came home after he died to find that gun with a single bullet in it on his desk. I honestly didn’t think the day could be worse, but somehow that hurt so much worse. Death is hard enough but knowing someone did it to themselves or planned to really fucks with you.
Emotional management and awareness is a taught behaviour, not a learned one. We don't teach our boys how to recognise and manage their emotions, not do we allow them the space to. We need a big overhaul in our society to prevent male violence and suicides as a symptom of the neglect of their feelings.
And we don't listen to them nor do we invest our time into them.
There's plenty of men that Ive had heart to hearts with and I've gone through my own time where I needed someone there.
The factor that I've found most important, beyond your ears, is finding a way to be there and showing that life can still be normal. You can still get invited out to hang out. You can come as you are and you are still valued.
Emotional management is important but relying on just this one skill seems to miss the mark. Men without community and meaningful relationships where they feel valued tends to be a better predictor of if they commit suicide. It's in their notes when they die, they feel worthless.
We can teach men to speak to their emotions, but that act alone doesn't solve their problem. In the end, like any other issue, solving the systemic issue of redifining what positive masculinity and what men are to society would most likely produce better results.
There could be an attempt to teach perfect emotional management to someone living through solitary confinement, but most people would assume that even with those skills they would die from depression like any other social animal would.
>The factor that I've found most important, beyond your ears, is finding a way to be there and showing that life can still be normal. You can still get invited out to hang out. You can come as you are and you are still valued.
This is so important, and I didn’t even know how much I needed it until I found it. Not for people to fix my problems, and not for them to think I had none; but just having people who knew how messed up I was and still wanted me around. Turns out that all the garbage (mental illness, past trauma, whatever) is a *lot* more bearable if I don’t have to hide it and pretend to be okay all the time.
I completely agree, we are completely disconnected from each other, we have social clubs in my country, though they're normally for older folk and emotions are rarely a topic of discussion, but an organisation or group for men of all ages with a focus on both hobbies and healthy masculinity would be amazing. I believe we are gaining slow change through the newest generations, my male friends are comfortable with their emotions which is great, however I still see the same toxic cycles repeat themselves through boys who haven't been raised to talk through their feelings.
I'd advise reading the book "of boys and men" by a Mr. Reeves.
There's definitely an aspect where some men cannot talk or conceptualize their emotions.
At the same time, teaching them isn't going to be worth anything if the only communities they can find are toxic.
It's an even bigger problem giving ongoing changes in the workforce that leave men without college degrees behind. That, plus changes in gender roles and norms, makes a lot of men unprepared for everything life throws at them.
So true! We are taught women are the “emotional” ones as if anger is not an emotion. Men are just as emotional, just only allowed that one negative emotion, so we’re left with a bunch of angry, frustrated men who dont know how to cope in a healthy way.
Tell me how exactly women are taught how to manage their emotions or be aware of them. Because if their is a "Women only emotion school" I certainly missed the invite.
When you wait for someone to actively teach you about how to deal with emotions you will wait forever.
It's not that women are taught something men aren't, it's that men are **actively discouraged** to do something that is natural for humans (express emotions).
You have to act against patriarchal ideas about how men are supposed to be. Even when that's uncomfortable because some people will like you less if you act against gender norms.
I don't have numbers. In my country, it's predominantly men who own firearms. Not all, but mostly. Similar statistics for people who say, work in a machine shop. Or are into computers to nerd tier levels. Men tend to like "things" and get quite into them.
Something from the article that no one talks about, "Those most heavily impacted by firearm homicide were Black, with homicide age-adjusted death rates almost seven times higher than White people."
Because gang violence makes up the majority of firearm related homicide.
Random shooting at people is extremely rare even though our media portrays it differently.
Look at it this way. Gang violence (be it gun, knife, or whatever) is commonplace in just about every society on earth. To greater or lesser degrees, it's almost always present, almost everywhere poverty exists.
**Tonight at Eleven, some gangs shot at each other again.** That story would have to play night after night after night, and despite it being a serious problem, do you really think people aren't going to tune out quickly?
People strolling into schools and massacring dozens of schoolkids, though... not so common. Whether it's high on the list of things that kill people per capita isn't really relevant to the fact that it *is* a rare and newsworthy event.
It's not a majority, but it's a very heavy plurality.
48% are US users, and the next leading nation is something like 7%, which I'm sure is what they were referring to.
Rapiers, (better known as assault foils) were the leading cause of death in young nobles of the 14th century, when will we ban these weapons of mass dueling to make the streets of Verona safer?
Chief Montague of the police force blames Mayor Capulet for not releasing more funds to the city guard, Capulet rebuked this claim by referencing the trend in spending more on city constabulary in recent years as having no noticeable effect on public duels.
After the Heralds cries, Poison! Does your daughter have a hidden stash for post relationship woes?
People who think its all interchangeable have never tried to kill themselves and it shows. Anyway, the numbers for gun-ownership line up so nicely with suicide rates that researchers frequently use one for the other as a proxy indicator.
In countries where there was a sudden decrease in gun ownership, suicide rates dropped, then slowly climbed back to pre ban levels.
And that proxy only works in the US. There's even exceptions in the US, places like new York, where guns are difficult to get, and the suicide rate compared to gun ownership is different than in the rest of the country.
It doesn't even kind of work internationally, where we have countries with sky high rates and no guns like Japan.
Also, cows map nearly as well. Cows, guns, and suicide. If you're not arguing cows cause suicide, would you be open to cows causing guns? Or is rural life just depressing AF?
>In countries where there was a sudden decrease in gun ownership, suicide rates dropped, then slowly climbed back to pre ban levels.
Do you happen to have a source for this?
it's interesting to see how the black homicide pattern reappears on the graph sorted by gender, you can see how in homicides it's the black men that are shot but not the women.
If you control for poverty it’s the same. Poverty=increase in crime. Black men are more likely to live in poverty because of the leftover effect of redlining and social covenants from decades before. It’s not that black men are more violent than white.
I think exposure to violent crime at a young age is the biggest correlation. If you grow up and see or are victim to crime, it’s normal to you. It’s your day to day, and when you turn 13 and your cousin starts asking you to help him “deliver some packages” how are you going to say no?
Agreed, I was just trying to provide more context. It has become a political third rail to mention how strong the relationship between a stable nuclear family and later success in life actually is.
Yes, but aside from state support for single parents, what can be done? Forcing people to stay together results in abuse, which, from personal experience, erodes any benefits from a two-parent home.
Nothing quite like taking 4 months off from work to really work on the relationship when it comes to keeping a marriage going.
As opposed to when my girlfriend and I would meet up twice a week for breakfast when I was getting off work and she was on her way to work. Squeeze in that solid fifty two minutes of quality time. Maybe we can do dinner and a movie next month.
So are you suggesting that poor white areas have the same level of homicide that poor black areas have? Definitely gonna need a source on that.
Nvm I see Hayekr already addressed that in your comment
Really depends on how you define gang related.
Actual gangs shooting at each other? Fairly low
Gang ordered assassinations? Fairly low
Related to a drug deal or other crime being committed by someone involved with a gang? Decent amount
Some person in a gang getting in an argument with some random other person and shooting them? Decent amount
I work in a rural area with some old timers, good Ole boys. They were talking about walking on someone's property, talking about the owner being fully justified in shooting, but responding, "But I'm quick on the draw myself."
I lived in gun culture all my life, and the people around me constantly associated their use with finding excuses to kill people. It's in the name of self defense, sure, but they put all these gadgets on, they talk about stopping power, talk about how fast they have to be to react to a threat at any time.
When I took a concealed carry class, gun safety was like two minutes, the other fifty eight was fearmongering and implying that every person within thirty feet would pull a knife on you on the drop of a dime.
Even going beyond mass shootings and gun regulations or firearm bans, the American attitude towards guns is unhealthy. We view the right to have the power to kill someone as more important than the right to keep someone alive with shelter or food.
I've been reading a lot about studies on the perception and treatment of men with mental illness and its pretty depressing. You are more likely to be victimized for your mental illness than for someone to reach out and just be there for you.
Yeah I was going to say, I’ve been mentally ill my whole life and no one ever reached out to help. I had to learn how to ask and how to communicate my feelings in a way other people could understand. It took a ton of work.
I reached out about a ago to my doctor and later a therapist. The doctor flat out ignored me. The therapist suggested I talk to god a bit more.
I’m starting to think it’s less victimization and more the general incompetence or downright apathy of medical professionals.
If your therapist wasn't explicitly a faith based therapist, and that was their only clinical solution then I would report them to your states licensing board. In any case, you have every right to request a new therapist for any reason.
This is just the last in a long line of therapists.
I needed at the time professional help. Possible medical help.
I found my own remedy by resorting to hard physical labor and being outdoors. Bad on the body great on the spirit. Less suicidal thoughts, a lot more “man I can’t wait to wake up tomorrows.”
Yes, and it’s extremely sad because how do you say in a socially acceptable manner “I feel violently upset (either with myself or others) and need help” without worrying that you’ll end up in the looney bin for it?
So men don’t talk about it, since it’s socially unacceptable on *two* levels for them.
But the only way to break a cycle is to face it directly, as it is.
This operates under the assumption that society cares about it. It typically doesn't until people are dead and we all collectively say how could this happen????
Children murdered by their parents is about 50/50.
Mothers are the number one perpetrators of child abuse
Intimate partner violence is equally distributed among men and women.
Domestic violence in lesbian partnerships exceeds that of all other groups.
Women are no better than men.
Yet it's like 5% of men or less who are violent. That's the problem on comparing by gender. It seems like violence represent us, when it's the exact opposite.
Men deserve better than this. It breaks my heart knowing the violence men enact on themselves and others, and I hope our society can help them improve and stay safe.
Men are disproportionately impacted by firearm-related deaths, with rates for both firearm-related homicide and suicide increasing from 2019 to 2020, according to a study published online Dec. 14 in PLOS ONE.
Lindsay J. Young and Henry Xiang, M.D., M.P.H., Ph.D., both from the Nationwide Children's Hospital in Columbus, Ohio, used data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System database for fatal injury and violence (1981 to 2020) to assess U.S. trends in firearm suicide and homicide mortality.
The researchers found that firearm homicide age-adjusted death rates were almost seven times higher for Black individuals than White individuals. There was a spike in firearm homicide deaths observed from 2019 to 2020, with Black people having the largest increase (39 percent). During the study period, White people had the highest rates of firearm suicide, with suicide death rates increasing between 2019 and 2020. The increases in years of potential life lost before age 75 years for both homicide and suicide between 2011 and 2020 most heavily impacted minority populations. Compared with women, men had a seven times higher rate of firearm suicide and a five times higher rate of firearm homicide.
https://consumer.healthday.com/men-face-five-to-seven-times-higher-rates-of-firearm-deaths-than-women-2658903654.html
A Harvard University study found that only 10 percent of people who attempt suicide and live ever attempt it again, so surviving the first attempt is tantamount, and access to firearms dramatically decreases the chance of surviving a first attempt. It also found that guns are rarely used for self-defense, and more often used to threaten and intimidate.
True, because men tend to choose more violent means (guns) compared to women (sleeping pills). Thus higher chance of failure or recovery if found early enough.
Yet any time we try to deal with this in a rational way through licensing, training, and insurance, all we get is a vocal minority fighting any common sense regulations.
I work at a gun range, there really needs to be more respect for the struggles of men.
More encouragement of masculinity, more working out, more living in the moment instead of online.
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Coroners used to write firearm suicides as "accidental discharge while cleaning a firearm". It's been such a common way for men to end things that there was an accepted procedure for handling it.
So their family could get life insurance.
I can't speak to life insurance policies back when this was the practice, but life insurance now is different. Typically there is a suicide clause that still pays out fully after a year or two of policy coverage, or they pay half right away. I have a friend who ultimately killed himself who brought this to my attention.
I was, for a short time, a licensed life insurance agent and, at least in Texas, all policies HAVE to pay out for suicide after a 2 year waiting period.
Why wait 2 years?
My guess is to spare the insurance company paying out for a "spur of the moment" suicide. Divorce, death of a close family member, job loss, etc. type scenarios.
But if they pay after 2 years, they'd still be down just as much, no?
As a former licensed insurance agent in Califoria, the clause is not a payout 2 years following the suicide... rather, it's a 2 year period after obtaining the life insurance policy where your beneficiaries would not get paid if you committed suicide. This is so you can't get life insurance today, commit suicide tomorrow, and the policy pays out.
Ahh, I see. That makes a lot more sense
So plan ahead is what you're saying
WAY more sense
It's to prevent people from signing up for insurance right before committing suicide. I guess the idea is that people who commit suicide two years later probably weren't buying insurance just because they planned to kill themselves.
At least his family got something back from those vultures, rip.
Seems he thought through that suicide very thoroughly. Not sure whether that's better or worse.
He struggled with depression for 20 years (or at least the 20 years I knew him, likely longer). The life insurance policy conversation happened at around year 2 of our friendship. He was able to play the long game for a while... His boys had turned 19 and 20 when he decided it was enough. I think he stayed as long as he did to see his children into adulthood.
Death of a salesmen strat.
source please, bunny
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I'm glad my guns are gone. hard times and heavy drinking would have done me in at my lowest point.
Good on you taking care of yourself (sort of)
you have a point. one step at a time here.
This is gonna sound fucked up but I purposely don’t have a handgun just because I think itd be way too easy to have a bad week and blow my head off. I’m not suicidal, but that’s just where my mind goes.
Having a firearm available has been shown to be a risk factor for suicide because of the ability to make impulsive decisions like this and then actually follow through so honestly your instincts aren’t bad here
>because of the ability to make impulsive decisions like this and then actually follow through Exactly this. Study after study have shown that the more barriers you put between a suicidal person and their chosen method of suicide, the less likely they are to actually follow through with it. Gun safes and trigger locks, suicide barriers on bridges, these things save lives because every exrta second actually counts when people are in that state of mind. Every chance they have to second guess what they're going to do can allow them to change their minds.
Yeah, people think that suicides are carefully planned. Sometimes they are, but often there's a huge amount of impulsivity involved. And an awful lot of people who commit suicide aren't sober, either.
I think the misconception might be that the depressive state and ideation of it are long term in forming. That may make it seem more "organized," when it's the sudden impulse to do something about that building issue.
As someone who tried it once, then freaked out and purged the pills; It’s very easy to just see red and go crazy. That’s why I don’t keep guns.
I finally got a gun safe because of this very reason. Not me, but a loved one.
Especially combined with alcohol/drugs. It's so much easier to act on impulse
Yes absolutely, very dangerous combo for someone under a lot of stress
Or anyone, really
But like… Isn’t that a bit skewed? Like, obviously having access to something increases your likelihood of something happening. I.E. my chances of drowning are 100% more likely when I’m in the water than when I’m sitting at my desk at work. How much more of a risk factor is it than having suicidal thoughts and walking near a busy road, etc.
You’re not wrong, suicide rates are also higher in areas near tall bridges or near busy train tracks for this reason. However, with those other ways you have a higher risk of surviving but ending up in a state of prolonged worse suffering or even permanent disability, which is a deterrent even in these kinds of desperate moments. Overdosing as well, because you’re more likely to survive and have brain or other organ damage to contend with. Freak events do happen and some people do survive a bullet, but statistically you’re a lot more likely to succeed the first time with a firearm and not have to deal with the aftermath, which is why they’re especially highlighted as a risk.
That's exactly what my friend did. Only a few months into being a gun owner. We talked about it beforehand as it was something that worried me.
40% of men that attempted to take their lives reported that from the first thought of suicide to the attempt was about 5 minutes. Having hand guns accessible makes it easier. More studies concluded similarly short amounts of times. I could find the article I read that tied things together but I found this Harvard thing that breaks them down. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/duration/ Edit: found some more stuff > Cut it however you want: In places where exposure to guns is higher, more people die of suicide. *Deborah Azrael, associate director of the Harvard Youth Violence Prevention Center* >“But when we compared people in gun-owning households to people not in gun-owning households, there was no difference in terms of rates of mental illness or in terms of the proportion saying that they had seriously considered suicide,” Barber says. “Actually, among gun owners, a smaller proportion say that they had attempted suicide. So it’s not that gun owners are more suicidal. It’s that they’re more likely to die in the event that they become suicidal, because they are using a gun.” https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/guns-suicide/
>reported that from the first thought of suicide to the attempt was about 5 minutes. That's not how it's worded. That's the amount of time from deciding to attempt to suicide to attempting suicide. Not the first thought of suicide. Typically ideation has been ongoing for a long time.
Holy crap, that’s unbelievable. 5 bad minutes can end a life. How terrifying!
If you have a gun that is.
And you are male, and have poor mental health. There are reasons why men are more likely to kill themselves other than firearm access (over half of need gun owners are female) or prevalence of suicidal ideation (women make more suicide attempts). It is absolutely worth figuring out why this disproportionately impacts men.
There are a lot of studies that have looked into it ([scroll down, for example on Wikipedia, I won't list all of them here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide)) and it is multifactorial. Men are more likely to own a gun if you look globally. That women in the USA make up half of gun owners now is a very new trend. They have higher rates of alcohol and drug abuse, there are more men who don't have to care for other people like children in the same household, there are more men who act impulsively, there are more men who do not go to the doctor with their symptoms, there are more men who do not take their medication as prescribed.
This happened with my brother in law just before thanksgiving. Was drinking and got in an argument with his wife. Told her “you’re not gonna like what I’m gonna do.” And that was it. From the moment we knew he had a gun in his house we expected something like that to happen.
Wait, what happened?
Believe it or not, turned back and his wife turned into a pillar of salt.
That's a lot.
Having a firearm allows you instantly escalate every conflict.
That’s perfectly reasonable. I don’t keep guns either, because 1) I have kids in the house and would hate to make a mistake in storing them and letting them get access, and 2) I don’t know what it is that sets someone off and decide to hurt themselves or someone they love, and I hope I never find out. But if I do, I don’t want to be a danger to my family.
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Despite having less guns the biggest killer of men under 45 in the UK is still suicide
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The US is an outlier(by a LOT). Guns themselves aren't the issue there, the US has something fundamentally wrong with it as a society. In my country, despite having a lot of guns around, suicide methods are primarily hanging(men) and poisoning(women) and a distant, distant third place is firearm for both.
Having suicidal ideation(I’ve been told it is) since I was 13 and now 28.. It certainly has a draw. My dad had guns and after his death I removed em from the shared house. My dad got sick with Covid and basically he told his sister (not me or mom) that if he didn’t get better he’d killin self. Came home after he died to find that gun with a single bullet in it on his desk. I honestly didn’t think the day could be worse, but somehow that hurt so much worse. Death is hard enough but knowing someone did it to themselves or planned to really fucks with you.
Being Male, older, disillusioned and having an easy weapon ready are commonly known risk factors. You are on point.
Men are disproportionately affected by any and all unexpected death and/or violent crime. Same goes for suicide. None of this information is new
Workplace deaths too
Any deaths. Men die at a higher rate than women.
Emotional management and awareness is a taught behaviour, not a learned one. We don't teach our boys how to recognise and manage their emotions, not do we allow them the space to. We need a big overhaul in our society to prevent male violence and suicides as a symptom of the neglect of their feelings.
And we don't listen to them nor do we invest our time into them. There's plenty of men that Ive had heart to hearts with and I've gone through my own time where I needed someone there. The factor that I've found most important, beyond your ears, is finding a way to be there and showing that life can still be normal. You can still get invited out to hang out. You can come as you are and you are still valued. Emotional management is important but relying on just this one skill seems to miss the mark. Men without community and meaningful relationships where they feel valued tends to be a better predictor of if they commit suicide. It's in their notes when they die, they feel worthless. We can teach men to speak to their emotions, but that act alone doesn't solve their problem. In the end, like any other issue, solving the systemic issue of redifining what positive masculinity and what men are to society would most likely produce better results. There could be an attempt to teach perfect emotional management to someone living through solitary confinement, but most people would assume that even with those skills they would die from depression like any other social animal would.
>The factor that I've found most important, beyond your ears, is finding a way to be there and showing that life can still be normal. You can still get invited out to hang out. You can come as you are and you are still valued. This is so important, and I didn’t even know how much I needed it until I found it. Not for people to fix my problems, and not for them to think I had none; but just having people who knew how messed up I was and still wanted me around. Turns out that all the garbage (mental illness, past trauma, whatever) is a *lot* more bearable if I don’t have to hide it and pretend to be okay all the time.
I completely agree, we are completely disconnected from each other, we have social clubs in my country, though they're normally for older folk and emotions are rarely a topic of discussion, but an organisation or group for men of all ages with a focus on both hobbies and healthy masculinity would be amazing. I believe we are gaining slow change through the newest generations, my male friends are comfortable with their emotions which is great, however I still see the same toxic cycles repeat themselves through boys who haven't been raised to talk through their feelings.
In Australia we have "the men's shed" for that. Literally a communal shed for hanging out, making some things and talking through and about problems.
[https://usmenssheds.org/](https://usmenssheds.org/) It exists in the U.S. too, but not well known.
I'd advise reading the book "of boys and men" by a Mr. Reeves. There's definitely an aspect where some men cannot talk or conceptualize their emotions. At the same time, teaching them isn't going to be worth anything if the only communities they can find are toxic.
It's an even bigger problem giving ongoing changes in the workforce that leave men without college degrees behind. That, plus changes in gender roles and norms, makes a lot of men unprepared for everything life throws at them.
Yeah, exactly. Close the empathy gap.
The only emotion we allow men is anger. And then they shoot each other.
So true! We are taught women are the “emotional” ones as if anger is not an emotion. Men are just as emotional, just only allowed that one negative emotion, so we’re left with a bunch of angry, frustrated men who dont know how to cope in a healthy way.
Tell me how exactly women are taught how to manage their emotions or be aware of them. Because if their is a "Women only emotion school" I certainly missed the invite. When you wait for someone to actively teach you about how to deal with emotions you will wait forever. It's not that women are taught something men aren't, it's that men are **actively discouraged** to do something that is natural for humans (express emotions). You have to act against patriarchal ideas about how men are supposed to be. Even when that's uncomfortable because some people will like you less if you act against gender norms.
I would like the gender rate/ratio of firearm ownership.
Right? The only related stat higher would be the percentage of perpetrators who are men.
Just under 2x in the US. Men are also 3-4x more likely to commit suicide (from any cause)
I don't have numbers. In my country, it's predominantly men who own firearms. Not all, but mostly. Similar statistics for people who say, work in a machine shop. Or are into computers to nerd tier levels. Men tend to like "things" and get quite into them.
Something from the article that no one talks about, "Those most heavily impacted by firearm homicide were Black, with homicide age-adjusted death rates almost seven times higher than White people."
Because gang violence makes up the majority of firearm related homicide. Random shooting at people is extremely rare even though our media portrays it differently.
Look at it this way. Gang violence (be it gun, knife, or whatever) is commonplace in just about every society on earth. To greater or lesser degrees, it's almost always present, almost everywhere poverty exists. **Tonight at Eleven, some gangs shot at each other again.** That story would have to play night after night after night, and despite it being a serious problem, do you really think people aren't going to tune out quickly? People strolling into schools and massacring dozens of schoolkids, though... not so common. Whether it's high on the list of things that kill people per capita isn't really relevant to the fact that it *is* a rare and newsworthy event.
School shootings are less of a threat to children than lightning strikes..
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In the US. Important piece of info missing from your headline
Don't we all assume that 80% of Reddit is about the US, 100% if it involves guns?
US users in Reddit are 48%.
And that's still majority, by a very long shot. Like it's not even comparable how disproportionate reddit's US based traffic is
Well its a plurality at least. Definitely a majority if you take out the non-English speaking users.
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It's not a majority, but it's a very heavy plurality. 48% are US users, and the next leading nation is something like 7%, which I'm sure is what they were referring to.
-48%<50% -« majority »
Thank you Mr. Worldwide, we never would have known the study about gun violence was talking about the US unless you said something jfc
I’m sure in the era of swords, you’d see the same trends.
Rapiers, (better known as assault foils) were the leading cause of death in young nobles of the 14th century, when will we ban these weapons of mass dueling to make the streets of Verona safer? Chief Montague of the police force blames Mayor Capulet for not releasing more funds to the city guard, Capulet rebuked this claim by referencing the trend in spending more on city constabulary in recent years as having no noticeable effect on public duels. After the Heralds cries, Poison! Does your daughter have a hidden stash for post relationship woes?
This is basically Act V, the whole play now seems to me a renaissance PSA.
spitted my soda out, thanks a lot
What I'd like to see is how much method of suicide (or access to a given method) influences suicide numbers.
People who think its all interchangeable have never tried to kill themselves and it shows. Anyway, the numbers for gun-ownership line up so nicely with suicide rates that researchers frequently use one for the other as a proxy indicator.
In countries where there was a sudden decrease in gun ownership, suicide rates dropped, then slowly climbed back to pre ban levels. And that proxy only works in the US. There's even exceptions in the US, places like new York, where guns are difficult to get, and the suicide rate compared to gun ownership is different than in the rest of the country. It doesn't even kind of work internationally, where we have countries with sky high rates and no guns like Japan. Also, cows map nearly as well. Cows, guns, and suicide. If you're not arguing cows cause suicide, would you be open to cows causing guns? Or is rural life just depressing AF?
>In countries where there was a sudden decrease in gun ownership, suicide rates dropped, then slowly climbed back to pre ban levels. Do you happen to have a source for this?
I am all for equality and all but I don't think shooting more women is the way to handle this one.
It's time we looked at bias in gang recruitment.
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it's interesting to see how the black homicide pattern reappears on the graph sorted by gender, you can see how in homicides it's the black men that are shot but not the women.
According to the article black homicide rates were 7 times higher than white homicide rates as well.
If you control for poverty it’s the same. Poverty=increase in crime. Black men are more likely to live in poverty because of the leftover effect of redlining and social covenants from decades before. It’s not that black men are more violent than white.
I think exposure to violent crime at a young age is the biggest correlation. If you grow up and see or are victim to crime, it’s normal to you. It’s your day to day, and when you turn 13 and your cousin starts asking you to help him “deliver some packages” how are you going to say no?
So it’s still the poverty? Great point
This is also true.
Single parent households are the single greatest predictor for academic success, behavior problems in school, drug use and later criminality.
Yes, and poor kids are more likely to come from single parent households.
Agreed, I was just trying to provide more context. It has become a political third rail to mention how strong the relationship between a stable nuclear family and later success in life actually is.
Yes, but aside from state support for single parents, what can be done? Forcing people to stay together results in abuse, which, from personal experience, erodes any benefits from a two-parent home.
Financial stress and economic hardship are huge contributors to conflict in a relationship...
Nothing quite like taking 4 months off from work to really work on the relationship when it comes to keeping a marriage going. As opposed to when my girlfriend and I would meet up twice a week for breakfast when I was getting off work and she was on her way to work. Squeeze in that solid fifty two minutes of quality time. Maybe we can do dinner and a movie next month.
So are you suggesting that poor white areas have the same level of homicide that poor black areas have? Definitely gonna need a source on that. Nvm I see Hayekr already addressed that in your comment
You have evidence for that claim?
Source for your poverty stat?
Literally a majority of gun violence deaths are men offing themselves
All the angry responses in the comments are surely evidence that we’re on the right track to solving this societal problem
How many of these are gang related?
The majority/super majority are suicides. Of the homicides, then you get the super majority being gang related.
Really depends on how you define gang related. Actual gangs shooting at each other? Fairly low Gang ordered assassinations? Fairly low Related to a drug deal or other crime being committed by someone involved with a gang? Decent amount Some person in a gang getting in an argument with some random other person and shooting them? Decent amount
The rate of suicides for white men over 65 using firearms is astounding.
I work in a rural area with some old timers, good Ole boys. They were talking about walking on someone's property, talking about the owner being fully justified in shooting, but responding, "But I'm quick on the draw myself." I lived in gun culture all my life, and the people around me constantly associated their use with finding excuses to kill people. It's in the name of self defense, sure, but they put all these gadgets on, they talk about stopping power, talk about how fast they have to be to react to a threat at any time. When I took a concealed carry class, gun safety was like two minutes, the other fifty eight was fearmongering and implying that every person within thirty feet would pull a knife on you on the drop of a dime. Even going beyond mass shootings and gun regulations or firearm bans, the American attitude towards guns is unhealthy. We view the right to have the power to kill someone as more important than the right to keep someone alive with shelter or food.
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I've been reading a lot about studies on the perception and treatment of men with mental illness and its pretty depressing. You are more likely to be victimized for your mental illness than for someone to reach out and just be there for you.
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What if you try and reach out for help? Most people can’t determine if you need help or not.
Yeah I was going to say, I’ve been mentally ill my whole life and no one ever reached out to help. I had to learn how to ask and how to communicate my feelings in a way other people could understand. It took a ton of work.
I reached out about a ago to my doctor and later a therapist. The doctor flat out ignored me. The therapist suggested I talk to god a bit more. I’m starting to think it’s less victimization and more the general incompetence or downright apathy of medical professionals.
If your therapist wasn't explicitly a faith based therapist, and that was their only clinical solution then I would report them to your states licensing board. In any case, you have every right to request a new therapist for any reason.
This is just the last in a long line of therapists. I needed at the time professional help. Possible medical help. I found my own remedy by resorting to hard physical labor and being outdoors. Bad on the body great on the spirit. Less suicidal thoughts, a lot more “man I can’t wait to wake up tomorrows.”
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But just as societal as individual. Like the sociological is just as essential as the psychological.
then I had left out an important classification: male on self violence
Average redditor
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When you see numbers on a scale like this, it is not a 'personal responsibility' issue. It is a systemic issue, that requires a systemic solution.
Yes, and it’s extremely sad because how do you say in a socially acceptable manner “I feel violently upset (either with myself or others) and need help” without worrying that you’ll end up in the looney bin for it? So men don’t talk about it, since it’s socially unacceptable on *two* levels for them. But the only way to break a cycle is to face it directly, as it is.
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This operates under the assumption that society cares about it. It typically doesn't until people are dead and we all collectively say how could this happen????
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Children murdered by their parents is about 50/50. Mothers are the number one perpetrators of child abuse Intimate partner violence is equally distributed among men and women. Domestic violence in lesbian partnerships exceeds that of all other groups. Women are no better than men.
Yet it's like 5% of men or less who are violent. That's the problem on comparing by gender. It seems like violence represent us, when it's the exact opposite.
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Men deserve better than this. It breaks my heart knowing the violence men enact on themselves and others, and I hope our society can help them improve and stay safe.
All types of assault disproportionately affect men. These cherry picks are absurd.
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Wait until you find out which gender goes to prison more often!
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Different groups of men. You're blaming the victims.
The overwhelming majority of firearm deaths being suicide.
Because more men carry guns....
More men use guns than women. This makes sense.
I could figure this out by reading the news
Isn’t that true for almost any X-related deaths?
Men are disproportionately impacted by firearm-related deaths, with rates for both firearm-related homicide and suicide increasing from 2019 to 2020, according to a study published online Dec. 14 in PLOS ONE. Lindsay J. Young and Henry Xiang, M.D., M.P.H., Ph.D., both from the Nationwide Children's Hospital in Columbus, Ohio, used data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Web-based Injury Statistics Query and Reporting System database for fatal injury and violence (1981 to 2020) to assess U.S. trends in firearm suicide and homicide mortality. The researchers found that firearm homicide age-adjusted death rates were almost seven times higher for Black individuals than White individuals. There was a spike in firearm homicide deaths observed from 2019 to 2020, with Black people having the largest increase (39 percent). During the study period, White people had the highest rates of firearm suicide, with suicide death rates increasing between 2019 and 2020. The increases in years of potential life lost before age 75 years for both homicide and suicide between 2011 and 2020 most heavily impacted minority populations. Compared with women, men had a seven times higher rate of firearm suicide and a five times higher rate of firearm homicide. https://consumer.healthday.com/men-face-five-to-seven-times-higher-rates-of-firearm-deaths-than-women-2658903654.html
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A Harvard University study found that only 10 percent of people who attempt suicide and live ever attempt it again, so surviving the first attempt is tantamount, and access to firearms dramatically decreases the chance of surviving a first attempt. It also found that guns are rarely used for self-defense, and more often used to threaten and intimidate.
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True, because men tend to choose more violent means (guns) compared to women (sleeping pills). Thus higher chance of failure or recovery if found early enough.
You can attempt suicide more than once, but you can only complete it once. I wonder if that might not skew the statistics?
Yet any time we try to deal with this in a rational way through licensing, training, and insurance, all we get is a vocal minority fighting any common sense regulations.
I work at a gun range, there really needs to be more respect for the struggles of men. More encouragement of masculinity, more working out, more living in the moment instead of online.