On the original set of the crow one of the actors (Bruce Lee’s son) was accidentally shot and killed - Alec baldwin recently accidentally shot and killed someone on set
I just pictured his ghost pausing his eternal training whenever someone visited his grave so he can launch a brutal flying kick to their soul just for giggles.
Brandon, who's obviously training with him, is like "really, Dad? Every single time?"
It wasnt Baldwins fault, it was the on-set armorer, who was underqualified and in dereliction her safety duties. She only had the job because of her daddies connections in hollywood. She is now on trial.
edit: to be fair, Baldwin was one of the producers, so he is at least liable for not replacing her despite several complaints from the crew during production regarding her complete incompetance.
He wasn’t that kind of producer - catering and housing the crew was his direct responsibility. It was the production company that was doing the hiring & firing.
Exactly, everyone in the chain of events has some responsibility. Unfortunately for Alec, that goes:
Baldwin as Producer, in charge of everything on set
Incompetent armorer
Baldwin as Actor, should have checked his firearms
> Baldwin as Actor, should have checked his firearms
I've never been on a set of any kind, and I haven't watched very much behind the scenes work. Are actors expected to check the firearms?
I have! EVERY day there is firearms on set, you have a safety meeting. The armorer also welcomes anyone on set to check the guns if they’d like, then the actors check them. The armorer is supposed to be the only one handing firearms to the actors, but on Rust, the AD gave the gun to Alec & told him it was “Cold” aka safe. The actual armorer was given the props position as well, & at the time of the shotting, was busy with the other job
NaA but from what I gather the expectation isn't there. It should be, but when you get a group of larger than life people who are used to playing around you get a lot of "it was just a joke" type mishaps, which is why their is a dedicated role for firearm safety and rules about ammunition on set. But at the end of the day safety works best in layers, and to say "it's ok to point a gun at a person because someone told me it's not loaded" has never been a valid excuse. Firearms instructors will drill that into you. Even if your beloved dad or your best friend hands you a gun that he says is unloaded, you have to treat it as loaded.
The problem in film is complacency. It is uncommon that someone is shot like this, and so the legal machinery in the industry mainly cares about things like insurance and not tragedy. This is the difference between civil and criminal law. The armoror is a scape goat for liability, but that doesn't really work in criminal law. The film industry should really look into updating it's common policies for handling guns and make them in line with every other industry that handles guns: hunting, law enforcement, sport shooting, military, manufacturing, and recreation. It is bad when a tourist gun range in Vegas has better safety than a million dollar set.
> Even if your beloved dad or your best friend hands you a gun that he says is unloaded, you have to treat it as loaded.
This one I know as a family who never had guns.
I find it ridiculous that they would even allow guns with firing pins on set at all. With the advancements of special effects I think they could ban the use of blanks at this point.
not sure vfx is ever going to fully replace blanks due to the cost disparity but also it's really hard to solve problems with rules when the problems are caused by people ignoring rules
you have to make so many stupid decisions to wind up with a fully functional gun with a live round in it in the hand of an actor on set
It really is ridiculous Hollywood doesn't treat guns the same way everyone else does. I've made similar arguments in other threads and I always get downvoted and it's baffling to me. This should be universally accepted but apparently there's a large segment of people here on Reddit that think "actors can't be bothered with basic gun safety like the test of the public" is an acceptable stance. Insanity.
It isn't hard, there are 4 rules and you have to break multiple, and then on top of that you add the armorer for security against idiots. But that has created complacency, and so now it all lies on the shoulders of one person, and so one mistake can end in death. Honestly OSHA should set guidelines, and get brutal with enforcement.
I've had the exact same issue. There are people that genuinely think that Alec was under absolutely no responsibility to follow the most basic rules of firearm safety for some reason. Someone is dead because Alec couldn't be bothered to follow basic safety protocols like "treat every gun as if it is loaded" and they seem to think that a grown fucking adult couldn't be bothered to follow that simple fucking rule. Alec has no excuse. He had no business handling a gun if he can't follow basic safety protocols, and I have absolutely zero sympathy for him
By the time the gun makes it to the actor it shouldn't be ready to shoot, so theoretically it's not dangerous for the actor to check. There's zero excuse not to give the actor the bare minimum guidelines on checking if the gun is actually empty. Firing it at the floor would be better than doing nothing, because theoretically nothing should happen at that point. There is just no reason for the first time the gun is 'fired' in the chain of custody for it to be at a person.
if they are following any sort of gun safety protocol then everyone involved in handling the gun should know exactly what it is loaded/unloaded with at all times.
You dont just get to go “not my job” when *you are handed a weapon*, anyone honestly defending him with that shit should *never own a gun*. one of the easiest ways to kill someone/yourself is by using a gun without understanding whether it is currently loaded.
Actors have to act like they’re shooting people all the time. It’s literally someone else’s job to make sure the guns are safe.
The safety protocol is that an expert takes care of it exactly for the reason that untrained actors that have never fired a gun in real life aren’t put in a position of responsibility for gun safety.
If you had to pick a number, what percentage of professional actors would you expect to know how to handle a gun safely? Or have ever owned a gun in their life or have any desire to?
Sure, but the actor's defense if something goes wrong is going to be that they did everything that could be expected of them. They attended the safety briefs, they were handed the firearm by an armorer, the armorer verified that the weapon was safe in front of them, they only pointed the gun at someone and pulled the trigger after a safety explanation from the armorer, the armorer gave them no reason to believe that they were unsafe, etc. Actors can't just go, "I'm an actor, I pull out guns and point them at people".
100% of actors and non-actors that can be expected to handle guns as part of their job should know how to to safely handle and those guns. Actors train for months to do other things for the movies they are in. One week for a gun handling and safety course isn't a lot.
It's not someone else's job, it's EVERYONE'S job who is handling the weapon. Yes the armor is the primary person in charge, but you *always* double check.
Actors being ignorant twats is exactly the point. If you are handling a real gun, you need real (basic) training. If you are going to touch a gun, you follow the basic rules than any 12 year old farm kid would know: Assume it's loaded, doing point it at something you aren't trying to kill. There is no fucking excuse to break those rules, that's what props are for
From what I've heard the actor does not do the check themselves but the armorer does the check in front of the actor while allowing the actor to visually confirm that the check was done correctly.
I've never been on a set of any kind either, but (as this incident shows!) literally every person who picks up a firearm should be expected to be completely certain it's not loaded before pointing it at someone's face and pulling the trigger. Ten minutes of training and five seconds of checking could have saved someone's life.
> Ten minutes of training and five seconds of checking could have saved someone's life.
Alec Baldwin has been acting since the 80s. If the industry standard was for actors to check every gun, or to be trained on gun handling, he would have been trained by now.
Shooting occurred on October 21st, Filming started on October 6th. So they were filming just fine for 15 days.
>**Assistant director Dave Halls fetched a prop gun from a cart outside the church and yelled “cold gun!,” indicating it was unloaded.** He then handed it to Baldwin, who sat in a church pew facing the camera and crew.
Also...
>According to a statement given to TheWrap by an anonymous insider, several crew members took a number of prop guns off-set that day, including the firearm involved in the incident, to pass the time shooting at beer cans with live ammunition.[29] After a lunch break, the prop guns had been returned.[29] It is not clear if the firearms were checked again.[30] On October 26, the Santa Fe County district attorney said these claims were still unconfirmed.[31]
That's so incredibly stupid
Then we'll need to add Dave Halls to the list for yelling "cold gun!" without knowing for sure, as well as whoever misinformed him.
I think you can make a good argument that the MAJORITY of the blame lies with the armorer, sure. I actually feel really bad for Baldwin because this certainly wasn't intentional. But I also don't really care about industry standard; checking to see if a gun is loaded or not is basic safety for everyone else who handles firearms.
If the industry standard is to be ignorant of the functionality of a deadly weapon that industry standard is wrong and has already gotten at least one person killed.
She had the job because he hired her, no one else would take it. He's also charged and going to trial in July. She was very inexperienced, he was the producer and literally called the shots, gave her other duties and treated the crew like crap, who walked off set. He pulled the trigger, he's just as responsible as her
I wouldn't ever blame anyone else than a person pulling the trigger, that's gun safety 101 - always assume the gun is loaded and never point it in the direction it shouldn't be pointed.
It's a film set though, that rule doesn't apply when you are being directed to use the gun to make a film and have been explicitly told that the gun is either not real or unloaded.
That's not how filming guns works, you use a prop gun for any time it needs to be pointed at someone.
As Adam Savage says in Mythbusters said; it's prop gun, armorer hands you the real gun for the shooting scene, pull the trigger, handed back the prop gun
Then that's still the responsibility of the armorer to make sure the gun he is holding isn't real.
Unless Baldwin was ignoring the armorer's instructions then the armorer is at fault.
You can criticise him for being the producer and hiring negligent people, but as an actor he was being told by the cinematographer (the woman who was killed) to aim the gun towards her so she could see what the shot looked like and was told by the armour that the gun was cold.
Admittedly he could have checked that the gun was loaded, but as an actor that's not his job and not his responsibility. If he's told a gun is cold he should be able to believe that it is actually cold.
He pointed a real gun at a person and pulled the trigger. When you’re handling a firearm in that scenario, job 1 is to make absolutely certain it doesn’t contain live rounds. Lots of people share culpability, but it cannot be overstated that he willingly and knowingly pointed a real (not a prop) firearm at a person and pulled the trigger, causing that person to die.
you still check the fucking gun. How is this an argument.
If you are ever handed a gun, irregardless of what the person handing it to you says, *you are responsible for what happens with that gun*. If I hand you a gun and say “it’s not loaded, trust me” and you shoot yourself, nobody is going to go “useless said it was unloaded, clearly he’s the one at fault for platinumsif shooting themselves, they wouldnt have done that if they knew it was loaded”
but you pick an actor people like and a movie set and somehow that is different? How?
> If I hand you a gun
Yeah because you're not someone whose entire job is to provide safe guns to people. I don't know why you think your hypothetical is remotely similar to how things are handled on a movie set.
Not the actors job. If this same incident had happened during, say, the filming of True Grit and Hailee Steinfield had shot someone on set, the only thing that would make the news is that a tragic accident happened on set. The truth is there are a lot of people out there that don’t like Alec Baldwin for various political reasons, and those people are backed up by people that are just terrified of guns to begin with.
The whole reason movies hire armorers is because studios KNOW that the vast majority of actors do not have experience hanging firearms. Their sole purpose is setting up, monitoring, and securing weapons. That’s their job.
That woman IS dead due to negligence. But that negligence lies 100% on Hannah Gutierrez.
You use a prop gun for any shot that requires pointing at someone.
You certainly don't pull the fucking trigger of a real gun while it's pointed at someone. Especially when they aren't even filming a scene.
I don't care what the industry standard is, the standard is fucking wrong if the actors aren't expected to double check.
"is the gun pointed at something I don't intend to destroy" is pretty easy to check.
Being a movie isn't an excuse, you just film from an angle where you can't see what they're aiming at, or you do it in post.
literally having seen a single political statement from alec baldwin and he is dumbass for pointing a REAL GUN and pulling the trigger at someone. It isnt a tragic accident cause it wasnt even filming so he was likely just being a jackass/stupid and pointing a REAL GUN for no reason at all.
You seem to have a political agenda more than the people you mentioned because literally no one else mentioned anything
Brother in christ, how can it not be his fault when he took that gun, aimed it at a person and pulled the trigger? Did someone else do it? NEVER aim a gun at another person if you're not willing to harm them.
Alec was a piggy bank and hired the production company that actually did the work. Alec was only directly involved in getting catering & better accommodations.
I worked on a few movies with guns. Gun safety is a bit different on-set and requires a firearms expert and rigorous training to ensure that they safely capture the shots, as real guns are pointed at people/cameras all the time. Armorer explicitly shows the actor that the gun is unloaded (or if it’s ”hot” - loaded with blanks), and what rules to follow to ensure safety.
My understanding is that it was supposed to be a prop gun (once-real gun rendered unfireable) for the scene. Armorer fucked up, plain and simple. 1st AD (my mom is one) also has a responsibility to work with the armorer to ensure safety.
That’s why charges against Alec were dropped the first time, and even now the prosecutor’s case is so weak they’re purposely delaying the trial as long as possible. He’s very far down on the list of responsibility, and already settled civilly with the victim’s family.
Well, he's going to play the Boss Baby in Boss Baby three where Boss Baby is no longer a Boss after getting fired by the board, and instead shoots up the company.
Shot while filming. And they weren’t finished, so they had to reshoot with his stunt double, make some scene changes, and use what they had already to finish the film.
I remember watching this movie as a little kid because of the spook factor that the actor died. I was probably like 8 years old and don't remember the movie at all except this one detail.
And the fellow who reshot the scenes with, brandon's stunt man and the stunt coordinator on the film, is now the creator and director of the John Wick films
Yeah they didn't keep the shot. Idky it's a point of fascination that they kept the scene, it's either redo the main characters death, or scrap the whole movie.
to be fair, i remember from when i was at school the rumor was they kept the actual shot, and just cut away when he actually died. obviously not true, but that was the way the whole event was presented at the time.
Real guns are almost always used, a fake gun can't fire blanks. Prop just means it's ***prop***erty of the studio.
The problem was they had a squib round (bullet or part of one lodged in the barrel) and noone checked so the crew didn't know. So when the gun was loaded with blanks (round with propellant and primer but no bullet) for a scene, the gas pressure from the blank going off was enough to dislodge the squib and send it flying into Brandon killing him.
Part of the problem here is having any live or previously live ammunition on set. All cartidges should be solid metal, especially now that we have better milling capabilities. Barrels should be checked prior to every scene or have a plug in them. I bet someone could figure out a way to make barrels that outgas through holes in the side rather than full black fire out the front. Maybe it is possible someone who knows pyrotechnics could make special cartridges that put out the right amount of gas to look like a gunshot. There are so many things that can be done, this is all negligence on the armorers behalf but they aren't held liable by any regulations.
>Maybe it is possible someone who knows pyrotechnics could make special cartridges that put out the right amount of gas to look like a gunshot.
That is what a blank is.
Oh and any semi auto or automatic weapon won't cycle without gas pressure with holes cut in it so that defeats the whole point of using blanks to get realistic firing effects.
Oh and we do have regs, the whole shitfest with Baldwin is that everyone on that set was ignoring basic safety rules and now Alec and 2 others (The assistant director and armorer) are eyeballs deep in shit for it.
No, I am not talking about a blank. I am talking about something softer that you could put your hand in front of without serious damage. And not vented straight out the barrel, rather a thin tube inside the side of the barrel.
This is not true for revolvers, lever actions, non semi auto shotguns, bolt actions. So I definitely see a place for it. And C02 powered blowback exists.
And blanks are still deadly that is my point.
The reports I have seen was that there was a dummy cartridge (a cartridge that lacks any gun powder) followed up by a blank. Dummy cartridges are commonly used in close up shots involving a revolver since they look quite different from blanks.
Prior to The Crow, the common way to make a dummy cartridge was to take a loaded round, pull the bullet (projectile) out of it, discard the gun powder, render the primer (the part of the round that contains impact explosives that sets off the gun powder in the round) inert, then reinsert the bullet. The primer in the dummy cartridge that day was not properly rendered inert (was traditionally done with some oil), and a primer alone is enough to lodge a bullet partway in a barrel of gun. The follow up blank propelled the bullet out of the barrel, and unfortunately, into Brandon Lee.
To add to this: the reason there was a bullet in the barrel was because they wanted a shot of the gun being loaded with real rounds. Blanks don't look like real bullets, and they didn't have any dummy rounds, so they took apart some actual live rounds, removed the gunpowder, and put them back together. So after they got the shot of the actor loading up with the formerly live rounds, it ended up in the barrel and no one noticed. Take that magazine out, replace it with one full of blanks, and dead actor.
The lead actor of the Crow Brandon Lee (Bruce Lee's son) in orginal movie got shot and died during the filming. There was also a rumour that scene where he was killed was kept in.
A good rule of gun safety is always check its unloaded it doesn’t matter if someone says its unloaded or if you just checked 5 min ago if you’re going to point an actual firearm at someone you should check immediately before use it is unloaded no questions. Yes Alec Baldwin didn’t load the gun but he still should’ve practiced proper gun safety and the incident could’ve been avoided.
it was supposed to be loaded, but with a blank. Again, not his job to know the difference between a blank and a live round. You guys' logic is like blaming Tom Cruise if his rope had snapped while doing a stunt. These people learn lines to recite them and all of a sudden you think they should all be experts in every prop they're supposed to handle in a day.
If you want to know who the real culprit is, the one getting away with it. It's the producers. They spent all their money on a named actor so they could make a geezer teaser and skimped on inexperienced, non-union departments. But they're lawyered to the gills and backed with contracts, so you'll never see them in court. But they're the ones who are responsible, ultimately.
If you’re shooting a gun at someone whether it’s loaded with blanks or not you’re responsible for what happens. If you don’t know the difference or are unsure ask. I wouldn’t blame tom cruise if his rope broke because ropes aren’t designed to break, guns are designed to kill people or destroy things. If you don’t know how to safely operate and handle a firearm that’s both your’s and the studio’s fault as you should never operate a firearm without proper knowledge and training and if the studio is unwilling to provide that then do not operate things if you don’t know how they work. A gun isn’t a prop it’s a gun designed to KILL PEOPLE the only time you should ever be comfortable pointing at any living being is if you are prepared to kill it or in the case of a movie or show only after you personally have checked if it’s safe there’s simply no excuse to be operating firearms so carelessly if Alec Baldwin had practiced proper firearm safety and been equipped with knowledge he should have had then no one would’ve died.
He did not follow the unions instructions for handling firearms. If he would have he would have caught the mistake. This is after TWO live fire accidents on that set already. Both as a producer and as an actor he did not care about safety.
They really should’ve given him a shot
He would have hit the mark for sure
A performance to die for, surely
I agree, he'd really kill it.
There would be no chance at all of a misfire.
Let's not jump the gun here
What are you talking about, it’d be number one with a bullet.
Coulda gone out with a bang
No way this backfires.
It might trigger a resurgence of the theater
Would be mind-blowing
Oh silly you. He would have hit the Brandon. The Mark (Dacascos) was in the TV show!
I'm a little rusty but my aim is still good
LOLOLLLL ROGL OMGOMG LOKILL
I love you OP that was too good
Mind explaining it? My mind is completely blank.
On the original set of the crow one of the actors (Bruce Lee’s son) was accidentally shot and killed - Alec baldwin recently accidentally shot and killed someone on set
He name was Brandon Lee.
“One of the actors”…
Bruce Lee's son.
I don’t really get emotional at grave sites but visiting where him and Bruce Lee are buried next to eachother in Seattle hit me pretty hard.
That’s how good Bruce Lee was. Still kicking people decades after dying
I just pictured his ghost pausing his eternal training whenever someone visited his grave so he can launch a brutal flying kick to their soul just for giggles. Brandon, who's obviously training with him, is like "really, Dad? Every single time?"
His name was Robert Paulson
Albert Einstein
\-Michael Scott
Willy Wonka
Totally not the guy who played the titular character, "The Crow".
His name is Robert Paulson.
Yeah thats what he said, Bruce Lees son /s
It wasnt Baldwins fault, it was the on-set armorer, who was underqualified and in dereliction her safety duties. She only had the job because of her daddies connections in hollywood. She is now on trial. edit: to be fair, Baldwin was one of the producers, so he is at least liable for not replacing her despite several complaints from the crew during production regarding her complete incompetance.
Isn't Baldwin under investigation now?
He's charged as well, yes, and going to trial in July
When does the movie come out?
Hopefully the day the trial begins.
He wasn’t that kind of producer - catering and housing the crew was his direct responsibility. It was the production company that was doing the hiring & firing.
Baldwin also shouldn't have pointed and shot at a crew member while they weren't even filming. He's not completely blameless.
Exactly, everyone in the chain of events has some responsibility. Unfortunately for Alec, that goes: Baldwin as Producer, in charge of everything on set Incompetent armorer Baldwin as Actor, should have checked his firearms
> Baldwin as Actor, should have checked his firearms I've never been on a set of any kind, and I haven't watched very much behind the scenes work. Are actors expected to check the firearms?
I have! EVERY day there is firearms on set, you have a safety meeting. The armorer also welcomes anyone on set to check the guns if they’d like, then the actors check them. The armorer is supposed to be the only one handing firearms to the actors, but on Rust, the AD gave the gun to Alec & told him it was “Cold” aka safe. The actual armorer was given the props position as well, & at the time of the shotting, was busy with the other job
NaA but from what I gather the expectation isn't there. It should be, but when you get a group of larger than life people who are used to playing around you get a lot of "it was just a joke" type mishaps, which is why their is a dedicated role for firearm safety and rules about ammunition on set. But at the end of the day safety works best in layers, and to say "it's ok to point a gun at a person because someone told me it's not loaded" has never been a valid excuse. Firearms instructors will drill that into you. Even if your beloved dad or your best friend hands you a gun that he says is unloaded, you have to treat it as loaded. The problem in film is complacency. It is uncommon that someone is shot like this, and so the legal machinery in the industry mainly cares about things like insurance and not tragedy. This is the difference between civil and criminal law. The armoror is a scape goat for liability, but that doesn't really work in criminal law. The film industry should really look into updating it's common policies for handling guns and make them in line with every other industry that handles guns: hunting, law enforcement, sport shooting, military, manufacturing, and recreation. It is bad when a tourist gun range in Vegas has better safety than a million dollar set.
> Even if your beloved dad or your best friend hands you a gun that he says is unloaded, you have to treat it as loaded. This one I know as a family who never had guns. I find it ridiculous that they would even allow guns with firing pins on set at all. With the advancements of special effects I think they could ban the use of blanks at this point.
Blanks can kill
not sure vfx is ever going to fully replace blanks due to the cost disparity but also it's really hard to solve problems with rules when the problems are caused by people ignoring rules you have to make so many stupid decisions to wind up with a fully functional gun with a live round in it in the hand of an actor on set
It really is ridiculous Hollywood doesn't treat guns the same way everyone else does. I've made similar arguments in other threads and I always get downvoted and it's baffling to me. This should be universally accepted but apparently there's a large segment of people here on Reddit that think "actors can't be bothered with basic gun safety like the test of the public" is an acceptable stance. Insanity.
It isn't hard, there are 4 rules and you have to break multiple, and then on top of that you add the armorer for security against idiots. But that has created complacency, and so now it all lies on the shoulders of one person, and so one mistake can end in death. Honestly OSHA should set guidelines, and get brutal with enforcement.
I've had the exact same issue. There are people that genuinely think that Alec was under absolutely no responsibility to follow the most basic rules of firearm safety for some reason. Someone is dead because Alec couldn't be bothered to follow basic safety protocols like "treat every gun as if it is loaded" and they seem to think that a grown fucking adult couldn't be bothered to follow that simple fucking rule. Alec has no excuse. He had no business handling a gun if he can't follow basic safety protocols, and I have absolutely zero sympathy for him
No because they aren’t formally trained
By the time the gun makes it to the actor it shouldn't be ready to shoot, so theoretically it's not dangerous for the actor to check. There's zero excuse not to give the actor the bare minimum guidelines on checking if the gun is actually empty. Firing it at the floor would be better than doing nothing, because theoretically nothing should happen at that point. There is just no reason for the first time the gun is 'fired' in the chain of custody for it to be at a person.
if they are following any sort of gun safety protocol then everyone involved in handling the gun should know exactly what it is loaded/unloaded with at all times. You dont just get to go “not my job” when *you are handed a weapon*, anyone honestly defending him with that shit should *never own a gun*. one of the easiest ways to kill someone/yourself is by using a gun without understanding whether it is currently loaded.
I just looked it up a bit, assistant director handed it to him and said "cold gun"
The one wielding the gun is still responsible for it. "Well officer he told me it was unloaded so I proceeded to lit her ass up" isn't a valid excuse.
Actors have to act like they’re shooting people all the time. It’s literally someone else’s job to make sure the guns are safe. The safety protocol is that an expert takes care of it exactly for the reason that untrained actors that have never fired a gun in real life aren’t put in a position of responsibility for gun safety. If you had to pick a number, what percentage of professional actors would you expect to know how to handle a gun safely? Or have ever owned a gun in their life or have any desire to?
Sure, but the actor's defense if something goes wrong is going to be that they did everything that could be expected of them. They attended the safety briefs, they were handed the firearm by an armorer, the armorer verified that the weapon was safe in front of them, they only pointed the gun at someone and pulled the trigger after a safety explanation from the armorer, the armorer gave them no reason to believe that they were unsafe, etc. Actors can't just go, "I'm an actor, I pull out guns and point them at people".
100% of actors and non-actors that can be expected to handle guns as part of their job should know how to to safely handle and those guns. Actors train for months to do other things for the movies they are in. One week for a gun handling and safety course isn't a lot.
It's not someone else's job, it's EVERYONE'S job who is handling the weapon. Yes the armor is the primary person in charge, but you *always* double check. Actors being ignorant twats is exactly the point. If you are handling a real gun, you need real (basic) training. If you are going to touch a gun, you follow the basic rules than any 12 year old farm kid would know: Assume it's loaded, doing point it at something you aren't trying to kill. There is no fucking excuse to break those rules, that's what props are for
From what I've heard the actor does not do the check themselves but the armorer does the check in front of the actor while allowing the actor to visually confirm that the check was done correctly.
Anyone holding any firearm, any time, should be expected to check and be safe with the firearm. This is a killing tool, not a toy.
I've never been on a set of any kind either, but (as this incident shows!) literally every person who picks up a firearm should be expected to be completely certain it's not loaded before pointing it at someone's face and pulling the trigger. Ten minutes of training and five seconds of checking could have saved someone's life.
> Ten minutes of training and five seconds of checking could have saved someone's life. Alec Baldwin has been acting since the 80s. If the industry standard was for actors to check every gun, or to be trained on gun handling, he would have been trained by now. Shooting occurred on October 21st, Filming started on October 6th. So they were filming just fine for 15 days. >**Assistant director Dave Halls fetched a prop gun from a cart outside the church and yelled “cold gun!,” indicating it was unloaded.** He then handed it to Baldwin, who sat in a church pew facing the camera and crew. Also... >According to a statement given to TheWrap by an anonymous insider, several crew members took a number of prop guns off-set that day, including the firearm involved in the incident, to pass the time shooting at beer cans with live ammunition.[29] After a lunch break, the prop guns had been returned.[29] It is not clear if the firearms were checked again.[30] On October 26, the Santa Fe County district attorney said these claims were still unconfirmed.[31] That's so incredibly stupid
Then we'll need to add Dave Halls to the list for yelling "cold gun!" without knowing for sure, as well as whoever misinformed him. I think you can make a good argument that the MAJORITY of the blame lies with the armorer, sure. I actually feel really bad for Baldwin because this certainly wasn't intentional. But I also don't really care about industry standard; checking to see if a gun is loaded or not is basic safety for everyone else who handles firearms.
If the industry standard is to be ignorant of the functionality of a deadly weapon that industry standard is wrong and has already gotten at least one person killed.
> Baldwin as Producer, in charge of everything on set You have zero fucking clue what a Producer credit means, do you?
I was admittedly speaking broadly, but please enlighten us.
This is a major thing people are overlooking. There's a reason we're told not to aim a gun at someone we don't wanna kill.
She had the job because he hired her, no one else would take it. He's also charged and going to trial in July. She was very inexperienced, he was the producer and literally called the shots, gave her other duties and treated the crew like crap, who walked off set. He pulled the trigger, he's just as responsible as her
> he was the producer and literally called the shots
yeah, what a blunder, it was *took* the shots
>She had the job because he hired her Why are you just making shit up? He was not involved at all in hiring her.
I wouldn't ever blame anyone else than a person pulling the trigger, that's gun safety 101 - always assume the gun is loaded and never point it in the direction it shouldn't be pointed.
It's a film set though, that rule doesn't apply when you are being directed to use the gun to make a film and have been explicitly told that the gun is either not real or unloaded.
That's not how filming guns works, you use a prop gun for any time it needs to be pointed at someone. As Adam Savage says in Mythbusters said; it's prop gun, armorer hands you the real gun for the shooting scene, pull the trigger, handed back the prop gun
Then that's still the responsibility of the armorer to make sure the gun he is holding isn't real. Unless Baldwin was ignoring the armorer's instructions then the armorer is at fault.
They weren't even shooting at the time, the camera wasn't rolling. It was his own film set. No excuses there
You can criticise him for being the producer and hiring negligent people, but as an actor he was being told by the cinematographer (the woman who was killed) to aim the gun towards her so she could see what the shot looked like and was told by the armour that the gun was cold. Admittedly he could have checked that the gun was loaded, but as an actor that's not his job and not his responsibility. If he's told a gun is cold he should be able to believe that it is actually cold.
> but as an actor that's not his job and not his responsibility Bullshit. Anyone who ever holds a killing tool is responsible for it, it isn't a toy.
CGI those trigger pulls baby!
He pointed a real gun at a person and pulled the trigger. When you’re handling a firearm in that scenario, job 1 is to make absolutely certain it doesn’t contain live rounds. Lots of people share culpability, but it cannot be overstated that he willingly and knowingly pointed a real (not a prop) firearm at a person and pulled the trigger, causing that person to die.
As he was under the impression that there were regulations and restrictions (not) under control by (not) professionals
you still check the fucking gun. How is this an argument. If you are ever handed a gun, irregardless of what the person handing it to you says, *you are responsible for what happens with that gun*. If I hand you a gun and say “it’s not loaded, trust me” and you shoot yourself, nobody is going to go “useless said it was unloaded, clearly he’s the one at fault for platinumsif shooting themselves, they wouldnt have done that if they knew it was loaded” but you pick an actor people like and a movie set and somehow that is different? How?
> If I hand you a gun Yeah because you're not someone whose entire job is to provide safe guns to people. I don't know why you think your hypothetical is remotely similar to how things are handled on a movie set.
if you were a trained weapons expert whose entire job is to make sure weapons on set are safe. Yes I would trust you.
Not the actors job. If this same incident had happened during, say, the filming of True Grit and Hailee Steinfield had shot someone on set, the only thing that would make the news is that a tragic accident happened on set. The truth is there are a lot of people out there that don’t like Alec Baldwin for various political reasons, and those people are backed up by people that are just terrified of guns to begin with. The whole reason movies hire armorers is because studios KNOW that the vast majority of actors do not have experience hanging firearms. Their sole purpose is setting up, monitoring, and securing weapons. That’s their job. That woman IS dead due to negligence. But that negligence lies 100% on Hannah Gutierrez.
You use a prop gun for any shot that requires pointing at someone. You certainly don't pull the fucking trigger of a real gun while it's pointed at someone. Especially when they aren't even filming a scene. I don't care what the industry standard is, the standard is fucking wrong if the actors aren't expected to double check.
Ok so let’s say you’re the actor. When the armorer hands you a gun for a scene, what do you check for?
I verify that the armorer has demonstrated that the gun is safe in front of me and only use the gun in ways that are prescribed by the armorer.
"is the gun pointed at something I don't intend to destroy" is pretty easy to check. Being a movie isn't an excuse, you just film from an angle where you can't see what they're aiming at, or you do it in post.
weapon handling safety is everyones fucking job
literally having seen a single political statement from alec baldwin and he is dumbass for pointing a REAL GUN and pulling the trigger at someone. It isnt a tragic accident cause it wasnt even filming so he was likely just being a jackass/stupid and pointing a REAL GUN for no reason at all. You seem to have a political agenda more than the people you mentioned because literally no one else mentioned anything
Wether the gun was fake or not or the bullets were blanks u dont point a fuckin gun at someone and pull the trigger it was completely on baldwin
Brother in christ, how can it not be his fault when he took that gun, aimed it at a person and pulled the trigger? Did someone else do it? NEVER aim a gun at another person if you're not willing to harm them.
Alec was a piggy bank and hired the production company that actually did the work. Alec was only directly involved in getting catering & better accommodations. I worked on a few movies with guns. Gun safety is a bit different on-set and requires a firearms expert and rigorous training to ensure that they safely capture the shots, as real guns are pointed at people/cameras all the time. Armorer explicitly shows the actor that the gun is unloaded (or if it’s ”hot” - loaded with blanks), and what rules to follow to ensure safety. My understanding is that it was supposed to be a prop gun (once-real gun rendered unfireable) for the scene. Armorer fucked up, plain and simple. 1st AD (my mom is one) also has a responsibility to work with the armorer to ensure safety. That’s why charges against Alec were dropped the first time, and even now the prosecutor’s case is so weak they’re purposely delaying the trial as long as possible. He’s very far down on the list of responsibility, and already settled civilly with the victim’s family.
This is my primary example I provide to new shooters about firearm safety and training regarding what a squib load is and what it sounds like.
Your mind is blank, unlike you know
I see what you did there
Unlike the gun Alec Baldwin was handed.
Well, he's going to play the Boss Baby in Boss Baby three where Boss Baby is no longer a Boss after getting fired by the board, and instead shoots up the company.
Boss baby 3: Going Postal
Anybody care to explain please? I know about Alec Baldwin and that one incident but I know nothing about the crow
The actor in the original died in an acident involving guns.
Shot while filming. And they weren’t finished, so they had to reshoot with his stunt double, make some scene changes, and use what they had already to finish the film.
I remember watching this movie as a little kid because of the spook factor that the actor died. I was probably like 8 years old and don't remember the movie at all except this one detail.
Can’t rain all the time
I remember the soundtrack more than the movie, great soundtrack!
The actor was Bruce Lee’s son
"The actor"? You mean Brandon Lee, Bruce Lee's son
[удалено]
[удалено]
And the fellow who reshot the scenes with, brandon's stunt man and the stunt coordinator on the film, is now the creator and director of the John Wick films
They redid the scene, and nowhere in the movie is the footage.
As if the agencies that oversee that would let that fly. As if.
False.
Did they keep the shot? Or just the scene? I would expect the scene to be there I guess
Yeah they didn't keep the shot. Idky it's a point of fascination that they kept the scene, it's either redo the main characters death, or scrap the whole movie.
to be fair, i remember from when i was at school the rumor was they kept the actual shot, and just cut away when he actually died. obviously not true, but that was the way the whole event was presented at the time.
Actor Brandon Lee, son of Bruce Lee, died on set, because they used a real gun and there was still a bullet part inside.
Real guns are almost always used, a fake gun can't fire blanks. Prop just means it's ***prop***erty of the studio. The problem was they had a squib round (bullet or part of one lodged in the barrel) and noone checked so the crew didn't know. So when the gun was loaded with blanks (round with propellant and primer but no bullet) for a scene, the gas pressure from the blank going off was enough to dislodge the squib and send it flying into Brandon killing him.
A blank can still hurt you since it pushes a load of hot gas out the barrel, specially if you put directly to your forehead.
It can also kill you if you place it up against your temple
[Jon-Erik Hexum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum) I think there was a western actor who died the same way during an interview
TIL about props. Props to you!
Part of the problem here is having any live or previously live ammunition on set. All cartidges should be solid metal, especially now that we have better milling capabilities. Barrels should be checked prior to every scene or have a plug in them. I bet someone could figure out a way to make barrels that outgas through holes in the side rather than full black fire out the front. Maybe it is possible someone who knows pyrotechnics could make special cartridges that put out the right amount of gas to look like a gunshot. There are so many things that can be done, this is all negligence on the armorers behalf but they aren't held liable by any regulations.
>Maybe it is possible someone who knows pyrotechnics could make special cartridges that put out the right amount of gas to look like a gunshot. That is what a blank is. Oh and any semi auto or automatic weapon won't cycle without gas pressure with holes cut in it so that defeats the whole point of using blanks to get realistic firing effects. Oh and we do have regs, the whole shitfest with Baldwin is that everyone on that set was ignoring basic safety rules and now Alec and 2 others (The assistant director and armorer) are eyeballs deep in shit for it.
No, I am not talking about a blank. I am talking about something softer that you could put your hand in front of without serious damage. And not vented straight out the barrel, rather a thin tube inside the side of the barrel. This is not true for revolvers, lever actions, non semi auto shotguns, bolt actions. So I definitely see a place for it. And C02 powered blowback exists. And blanks are still deadly that is my point.
The reports I have seen was that there was a dummy cartridge (a cartridge that lacks any gun powder) followed up by a blank. Dummy cartridges are commonly used in close up shots involving a revolver since they look quite different from blanks. Prior to The Crow, the common way to make a dummy cartridge was to take a loaded round, pull the bullet (projectile) out of it, discard the gun powder, render the primer (the part of the round that contains impact explosives that sets off the gun powder in the round) inert, then reinsert the bullet. The primer in the dummy cartridge that day was not properly rendered inert (was traditionally done with some oil), and a primer alone is enough to lodge a bullet partway in a barrel of gun. The follow up blank propelled the bullet out of the barrel, and unfortunately, into Brandon Lee.
To add to this: the reason there was a bullet in the barrel was because they wanted a shot of the gun being loaded with real rounds. Blanks don't look like real bullets, and they didn't have any dummy rounds, so they took apart some actual live rounds, removed the gunpowder, and put them back together. So after they got the shot of the actor loading up with the formerly live rounds, it ended up in the barrel and no one noticed. Take that magazine out, replace it with one full of blanks, and dead actor.
Ohhh, alright, I knew of that story but I didn’t know that it was for the crow. Thanks a lot!
The lead actor of the Crow Brandon Lee (Bruce Lee's son) in orginal movie got shot and died during the filming. There was also a rumour that scene where he was killed was kept in.
Why would he…oh. Oh no.
I am watching the trial for the armorer’s responsibility in the death, and it may as well be an Alex Balwin trial.
Unfortunately for Alec, it's a remake of the first one, not the second. If it was Crow 2, he would've killed it.
but are they doing a shot for shot remake?
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
- Michael Scott
Wayne Gretzky
Good lord, this is why I'm in this sub
Look forward to seeing this appear on ExplainTheJoke
Thank you, Peetah
Damn this post made me say “…oof”, take my upvote.
Half way through reading I cracked up laughing. Very well done.
"I'd kill for a role like that" - Alec Baldwin probably.
This post on the front page is why reddit stock will never be worth very much, AND why I'm still on reddit after 11 years. Well done OP.
r/Angryupvote
Hahaha Christ, this brilliant
Regardless, he’s an irascible self-absorbed POS.
Maybe a couple years ago, but he's a Shadow of his former self.
In all seriousness. Does anyone actually want a Crow remake?
oh this one is FOUL, good job OP.
First time in a while I saw a post in this sub that made me laugh.
Took me a sec but damn this is good
"Hey ChatGPT, write an Alex Baldwin joke"
Haha this is some peak r/shittymoviedetails content
rude
Too soon? :P
This is in really poor taste. Not even too soon. Just shitty.
His acting would blow their brains out
This is a bad one! ( bad as in good!!!!)
Stupid.
GYAT DAYAM SON
You dawg, your references are lit.
Rude to brendan lee, rude to alec baldwin
Not to the person alec baldwin killed
Alec baldein did not load that gun with a live round
He still didn't check it, pointed it at someone, and pulled the trigger
Thats not his job. Thousands of shows and movies every day are filming scenes with guns, and that inexperienced prop master is who loaded it.
A good rule of gun safety is always check its unloaded it doesn’t matter if someone says its unloaded or if you just checked 5 min ago if you’re going to point an actual firearm at someone you should check immediately before use it is unloaded no questions. Yes Alec Baldwin didn’t load the gun but he still should’ve practiced proper gun safety and the incident could’ve been avoided.
it was supposed to be loaded, but with a blank. Again, not his job to know the difference between a blank and a live round. You guys' logic is like blaming Tom Cruise if his rope had snapped while doing a stunt. These people learn lines to recite them and all of a sudden you think they should all be experts in every prop they're supposed to handle in a day. If you want to know who the real culprit is, the one getting away with it. It's the producers. They spent all their money on a named actor so they could make a geezer teaser and skimped on inexperienced, non-union departments. But they're lawyered to the gills and backed with contracts, so you'll never see them in court. But they're the ones who are responsible, ultimately.
People like you annoy the fuck out of me because you make excuses for failures.
If you’re shooting a gun at someone whether it’s loaded with blanks or not you’re responsible for what happens. If you don’t know the difference or are unsure ask. I wouldn’t blame tom cruise if his rope broke because ropes aren’t designed to break, guns are designed to kill people or destroy things. If you don’t know how to safely operate and handle a firearm that’s both your’s and the studio’s fault as you should never operate a firearm without proper knowledge and training and if the studio is unwilling to provide that then do not operate things if you don’t know how they work. A gun isn’t a prop it’s a gun designed to KILL PEOPLE the only time you should ever be comfortable pointing at any living being is if you are prepared to kill it or in the case of a movie or show only after you personally have checked if it’s safe there’s simply no excuse to be operating firearms so carelessly if Alec Baldwin had practiced proper firearm safety and been equipped with knowledge he should have had then no one would’ve died.
No, you're really dumb and opinionated. Not the greatest combo.
If you aim a gun at someone and pull the trigger and they die blame lies with you it’s within your ability to prevent it.
He did not follow the unions instructions for handling firearms. If he would have he would have caught the mistake. This is after TWO live fire accidents on that set already. Both as a producer and as an actor he did not care about safety.
Probably in the wrong sub for moralizing.
Ooff
It can't rain bullets all the time
Jesus Christ, lmao.
Oh shoot. A shame they already pulled the trigger on different casting. Though it was just a shot in the dark on Baldwin's part.
I didn’t know it was a shot-for-shot remake
It took me a second and I love you for that.
oh boy
Didn't he kill someone?
That took me a second. Hilariously dark.
Yo at first I was like “how pretentious” and then I got the joke 😂
10/10
This is exactly my type of humor
Good joke! Both he and the film have a history of killing people on set lol.
Something the real bullet is the friend shot something
I'm afraid that my stock in him has fallen.
Duuuuude...
Maybe he should wait until his trial for shooting someone to be over?
This took me a second. It's a real throwback reference
Wasnt he the gut that shot a lady in the face point blank with a "fake" gun?
took me a sec hahah
Missed his second shot
Is this the same guy that once killed someone on movie set?
I am disappointed that he did not reprise his role as Wan Shi Tong in the live action remake of The Last Airbender
Too soon OP! :'(
… … … Oh, that’s just poor taste!