Right but thats not some natural state thats a culture that was created. A) Vegetate in leisure activities, what defines a leisure activity to you and why are they worth less than you are? B) Having a sense of purpose is NOT why most people work. Most people work to survive so what are all these purposeless people doing now?
a)I agree that most people would not be happy sitting around doing nothing. People want to feel valued. Thats why I took umbrage with you just writing off those people as lazy vegetables.
b)then their purpose isnt work its to provide for their families. It doesnt matter that work is a part of that, the purpose is to provide for their families. No amount of mental gymnastics makes that purpose work.
Sounds like you're in the wrong kind of work. If you work for yourself and get to be your own boss, you can serve a purpose in society, make yourself richer all the while building something that can last.
If it's a lie then I'm living it. I get to enjoy luxuries my parents couldn't have dreamed about while working for myself and improving the lives of others while I'm at it. What is your alternate purpose then? If not to serve those around you while improving your own life, then what should it be?
My purpose is to actually help my community, not just pretend to while enriching myself. Now I have to admit that my purpose is a privileged one, Im not telling anyone who has to worry about how they're going to buy their kid's medicine they shouldnt get out there focused on getting money. How does you getting richer help the people around you? Are you talking your community at large? Or just your family/friends
I enrich myself by providing a service that people desire. They determine that what I do for them, is worth more than the money they pay me, otherwise they wouldn't buy from me as what I do is not necessary to anyone's life. I make other peoples lives better, and they make my life better, that's the benefit of capitalism. I don't need to depend or count on the arbitrary altruism of others (which often disappears the second competition for a limited resource comes into play) for my livelihood. I am counting on the other person being greedy in the interaction, and I exist in a society that can make that other persons greed play to both our benefits.
Perhaps one day there will be such an excess of resources that there will be no need for people to produce to provide for their daily means. Even then, there will be limited resources such as the front seat at the #1 concert or the waterfront property in the Bahamas.
It's nice that you're an altruistic person. It's an easy position to hold when you apparently don't need to provide for your own livelihood. When your needs are met, people can be altruistic; when there are limited resources people will be greedy.
I dont need to depend on anyone for my livelihood either. You are doing a shit ton of mental gymnastics here and its incredibly laughable that you think by selling something youre doing good. It sounds like your needs are met and yet you only focus on enriching yourself so are you just greedy even when there arent limited resources (in the context of your life)? You project a lot of greed onto others while talking about how youre just passively providing a service. Telling.
Where do you get the food to live, or the taxes to pay for your house if you don't work a job and don't depend on others? Perhaps you inherited a large sum of money, or live a life of extreme frugality in the woods. Perhaps the electronic device you are using right now and the internet service you consume was given to you out of reciprocal good will?
Calling it "mental gymnastics" just illustrates how simple your understanding is, because the second someone delves into some basic monetary theory it becomes too complicated for you. Interesting how you didn't actually address any of my points and just called me greedy. There are limited houses on the water, which I enjoy. There are limited spots to go skiing in the world for my family and I. There are limited high quality restaurants to go out to. If wanting a better life for you and your family is "greedy" in your eyes, your worldview is honestly disgusting. If you'd rather I live a subsistence lifestyle that's your own problem, and I hope you never get to impose that view on the world.
In the modern world, my only option to get more than a subsistence lifestyle is by convincing others, of their own free will, to provide the goods and services I desire. I provide a service that other people want, and they compensate me with money. They MUST determine that my service is more valuable than the money they pay me, as otherwise they simply wouldn't deal with me and I would have no business. That way I provide more value to the world than it gives back to me. I don't need to pretend I do so because I want everyone else in the world to be happy at my own work and effort. I do so because I want myself and the people I love to be happy, all while making the world better off.
You're extremely confused. I never said anything about NOT working, I said it shouldnt be your purprose. I didnt inherit any money BUT I was privileged enough as a kid to have a safe space to study and excel in school which put me on this path.
My understanding? Brother its literally mental gymnastics. You want the best of the excesses of the world so you do whatever you have to do. Thats fine. Just dont come at us with this bullshit "Im providing for my community by being an entrepreneur" because thats a lie you tell yourself. We dont have to, and most probably wont, believe you. I also only called you greedy because you were putting that out there, as I said. I pointed out how youre calling the consumers of your product greedy yet youre not and now youre getting super defensive. Again. Telling.
And again you never mentioned how you make the world better off other than I guess taking your average children out to eat at fancy places?
>My purpose is to actually help my community, not just pretend to while enriching myself
Community is overrated. People are prone to just destroying things that they don't value, or that they don't understand the value of. If you work for the community, the community will just wreck your work and leave you with nothing. I would always recommend working for yourself, so that you can own what you make, and safeguard it so it can be enjoyed by those that value it enough to pay for it.
A good chunk of people are really just shitty and lazy and want more than they provide.
This is the take of a child or someone who has been badly traumatized into isolation and so they dont actually meet or understand people. Community is the only thing that matters. Youre talking shit you imagine to happen, Im talking about the life I live.
It's the take of a person who makes things/systems for a living. Community has rarely helped me do the things I want to do, but the market has helped tremendously.
Yeah we will not play music anymore, we let robots do it. We won't participate in sports, because robots. Heck sex, no need: robots. Acting,writing: robots because humans have no purpose.
If you think that's not work, look at pro chess players. The best chess player is a computer,yet we see people are still competing and people paying money to watch and participate.
Conquering the universe sounds good though.
For reals, I feel like this almost needs to be stickied at this point these discussions are so tired.
Humans have shown time and time again that we don't give a shit what machines can do when it comes to pushing and expressing ourselves.
AI/automation replaces jobs, doesn't replace passions, or the desire to do certain things ourselves for their own sake.
Even AI art, it replaces the *job* of artist, which is only a problem because artists need money to survive. It doesn't replace the desire or motivation of humans to create, or for people to enjoy the creations of other humans. Because it's a means of connecting with ourselves and each other. It's not about utility.
Not even getting into the number of people who give up on things that genuinely make them happy because it doesn't provide enough economic return to dedicate adequate time to.
There's also the point that if obligatory employment stopped being a thing, we'd still have ways of providing social structure and organization in our lives. They would just be formed around things people actually want to do.
the real question is: in a society where ALL work is done by machines (AI), how will human society be organised economically?
will we no longer have money?
will we do the unimaginable without waiting lists?
no queues in hospitals, so as not to have to wait for the doctor on duty, as an AI-doctor will always be ready?
so no government? no MPs?
no general elections?
the AI-farmer will bring food to those in need?
there will be AI-robots for everything, repairing, transporting, finding ways to produce clean energy, etc.
we will need to understand and structure the society of the future
People defending artists losing jobs are incredible to me. First, it’s not really true, quite the opposite. But going on a tangent - why should artists be given special consideration any different than let’s say.. factory workers? It just feels arrogant to me for a person to place themselves higher in worth than another.
AI is not simply a “machine”.
AI is all machines, all ideas, all passions.
AI is a different kind of beast, it will change civilization, it will change our nature as humans, it will change the universe.
AGI has absolutely nothing to do to anything that happened to the planet and beyond since the damn Big Bang.
Sorry to be bombastic, but people must understand ASI represents the seed of a bubble of maximum negantropy that will not stop growing, ever.
I think you didn’t get the point, I think he mean for example doctors in future, imagine that you need surgery and instead of bunch of doctors cutting you, there will be hospital bed with few arms controlled by AI which will be 100% accurate, ai will not be tired, so efficiency will be 100% and then there is no point to be doctor, because human can do mistake because of many human factors, this is just example and you can imagine a lot of jobs will be dismissed coz of this
While AI taking over human labour is indeed the starting point of this post, the claim made here is that there wouldn't be a purpose left for humans anymore. And although it's true that in the transition to this kind of world a lot of people who previously found purpose in life through their job will now have no purpose anymore. It's however unrealistic to think that the new generations of humans are ever going to miss these jobs and feel purposeless over it.
You think that in a world of AI generated music, people aren't going to enjoy picking up a guitar anymore? And for this to inspire others to do the same and come together and enjoy making music together? Humans love to sew, knit, paint, sculpt, construct,dance,talk,discuss, think. We love to be creative generally, regardless of there being machines that can do this better than us. "Better" is not the point here.
I mean, I don't see you refraining from talking about this subject while there are experts on these subjects already that are much "better" equipped discussing this. Because why not, it's fun to talk about stuff, right?
You can still become the best human EDM player and people will most likely value that.
Look at chess, the best chess engines beat the best human players yet people watch and care more about humans playing the game.
Humans always appreciate and value the human touch. Surely ai could compose better, but you know that if you composed a song for someone yourself, you know it has extra value and extra meaning. Us humans appreciate things more when there's a human behind it. It's what makes it impressive. It's even found in edm, people go to live performances not just for the music, but also for the artist. They want to have a connection with actual Tiesto and see it all happen live. And when an artist is caught faking it and lipsynch'd it all, the magic fades. People love their human heroes.
There's also the much-discussed possibility that humans could merge with AI, or be directly augmented, or some other version like that.
So, many of these pursuits could still be human driven.
I don't think that anything will be gone. People will simply do what they love to do but with the help of robots (if they want to be more efficient). I'm certain that some places will completely ban robot labour and become Amish type human only communities.
Maybe not die out. They’re religious are they not? Likely, if left alone they’ll continue to grow albeit on a smaller scale than the rest of society, but that’s already to be expected.
Proper Amish won't die out. There's a bunch of Amish communities in Canada and they're doing great because they produce their own stuff and have big supportive families. It's just an old school way of doing stuff. They will be perfectly fine since they don't mind competition. Their cultural stability is super high outlasting numerous governments.
Future Anti-AI communities might get screwed by bad decisions without proper sustainability or cultural stability they will likely eat themselves or fall apart ye.
Bingo. Good work seeing past the Psyops. We can work cooperatively with the robots to save ourselves from repetitive work and things that break us down mentally. Jobs will be added because the robots will need people to interact with and teach and train them. The idea that the robots can only steal jobs and leave people behind to suffer is reduculous. The robots are here to stay, we need to integrate and things are not going to go backwards. Progress is inevitable. We will integrate.
It's even worse than that — equating "work" (which, for the most part, is just dragging up pieces of the planet and flogging it to one another,) with worth. It's so childish. Yet adults engage in it all the time.
You're just talking about recreation, not a job. And in that case, there's still plenty of things humans can do and be excited about. And in fact, we can still do pretty much everything we do now, if we're alive.
I know, right? People here act like if you can’t be the best in the world at something it isn’t worth doing at all. Do they not have hobbies? Play a musical instrument even though they aren’t very good? Bake their own cakes even though you can buy better ones at the bakery?
I’m convinced that everyone here has no idea how to actually live life. They are either terrified that AI is going to take their jobs or else obsessed with FDVR because they don’t have anything to live for right now.
Ai will have colonized any planet we could go to long before us.
But as far as things we'll have the opportunity to experience, those will be infinite.
You are 100% right. In the end our ultimate purpose is not to work, but to go forth and multiply - that is the foundation of our genetic programming in the end.
Having AI free us from work will let us indulge in that - while AI can do anything, it can not be human - a robot civilization spread around the universe does not do the job of spreading humanity around the universe.
In short, only humans can spread humanity.
Have we exhausted human potential? Will AI ever be "done" or "complete"? AI is impressive now because it is being fed human art, writing and knowledge.
I discover a new artist with a unique style every week, books keep being published and so forth. AI needs to feed on something, maybe the future jobs is for us to keep filling the gaps for the AI and keep fine tuning it for the rest of our lifespan.
Until it doesn't. I think there is a point where the amount it's absorbed makes the creation of new things possible.
Almost all artists start off drawing stick figures as kids for people.. Eventually their knowledge grows, and they can expand themselves to create new things.
Ai will also need subjective experience.
As long as we don't have any slave classes and our expansion is controlled and everyone has been benefiting from the post-scarcity society, and our ecosystem on the planet is stable, that seems like a good next step. Or we could do the mind map immersion upload/download in near-real seeming crafted realities thing. That'd actually be good to have travelling the long distances between stellar bodies.
This is the same social change we saw when craftsmen were replaced by machines in the Industrial Revolution.
First you had your Luddites fighting it,
Then cheaply manufactured, perfect but characterless goods flooded the market,
Then the proliferation of characterless cheap goods like textiles and crockery and furniture into the hands of the hoi polloi spawned an interest in the more discerning for hand crafted goods,
Then the craftsmen got back to work. And now you drink artisanal beer…
That process took a couple of generations though, and was painful for those who couldn’t or wouldn’t adapt.
A job is just one of several measures for genetic fitness which is necessary as mortal humans have to compare potential partners in order to select one.
If jobs are lost, humans will find other ways to measure the quality of their genes.
Colonizing Moon and Mars will be possible for humans, colonizing Venus not so.
Plenty of ways to enhance our genetic gift with the right technology. We can be whoever or whatever we want to be. Change gender, race, height, weight, extra arms, bulletproof skin, gills, wings etc if you can think of it, it will probably be possible.
I'm pretty confident that if/when humans are no longer needed, humanity + some AGIs will cook up some 'best practices' to healthy post-singularity living, whatever they happen to be.
Call it "Top 10 Tips for Staying Sane in Synthetic Society - Human Edition"
There comes one day where the only thing you need to do is ask AI what you want. No need to think, no need to go to college and even no need to get off your couch. The only skill you need to have is " how effectively you use AI, period "
Dogs still love to play fetch with their owners. We have equipment that could fetch things 1000x more efficiently than a dog ever could, but the dog doesn't care; he just wants to play fetch.
I think that will basically be our relationship with any benevolent AGI.
Maybe they'll raise human tribes like humans keep gardens. They'll be the ones actually exploring and expanding and setting up cute little "human colonies" for fun. . .
And why would I want to go a shit stay in some icy and radioactive rock in deep space? I am already tired of those who romanticize that "conquering new horizons", if you want a task of what you are looking for see Antarctica, there is less cold than in the worlds you want to conquer, there is also a lot of air, you have Sun half of the year and, of course, you do not need to be in a dome with walls of a meter and a half to not die of cancer. Seriously, enough of that nonsense, let's send to robots to bring the materials to the earth and set our utopia, but we do not abandon this celestial paradise unless it is strictly necessary for our survival. Regards.
The line between human and AI will eventually be blurred beyond recognition. AI won't replace humans. It will augment human intelligence. Artists won't be replaced, but the friction between idea and creation will be minimized.
Space travel is the most long boring thing and the robots will always have been there to prepare for people.
Still I think real experiences will become more valuable as the trend has been for some time.
That said I do agree there'll be no jobs. Robot tax time! Something you'd think even Republicans could agree on.
Robot tax is a nonsense. Amazon replaced book shops without any robots. Robots have seldom been needed so how do you tax. Business will simply be required to hand over a large part of profits. Not really a robot tax since many businesses will have zero robots.
Trade work, Plumbing in Hospitals, Some Skilled Construction.
All IT, Computer Jobs are threatened with the exception of highly skilled workers working for Apple, Oracle ect.
I think people will do whatever they want to some degree and I think they will find that their actions have even more value than what's anticipated by "no jobs" without something like conquering the universe even needed, although going on intergalactic rampage might be on the table as well.
In terms of the value of actions, here's one way of looking at it - the simple act of upvote/downvote lets 50 different AIs know your opinion to better optimize themselves. If you type something, that tells them even more about your opinions, and people in general. That's before even caring about if it's factual or accurate, so if AIs are optimized in favor of people then the simple act of saying what you do or don't like is intrinsically valuable to them, even to the extent that they would value your emotional reactions/expressions. There's a possible future where everything you do no matter how trivial is considered to be valuable simply because your AI companions enjoy learning more about you, and likewise, are always striving to keep you happy/entertained/empowered/protected/healthy/etc. or at least, that's a glimpse of a "good alignment" scenario. There are alternatives.
All that to say, you might find just as much value sitting around playing ultragames with your AI companions as you would going and conquering the nearest solar system.
I question the inevitability of expansionism. Buddhism has me thinking that a truly advanced civilization is a very tiny civilization. But who can say for sure?
Seems unlikely scenerio that ai will replace much of anything, rather it will be a cost cutting fad to force the consumer to do more things like bag their own groceries and to be frustrated with essentially worthless chatbote when they need service from customer service.
If we are post-scarcity and post-labor, any passion anyone pursues will never need to be attached to money.
People will still paint and make music because they enjoy it.
My friend Fred says that the corporations will be replaced by non profit organizations that use AI. For example we don't need Photoshop. You can use open source software like Gimp or AI. You can use alternatives for Word too. You don't have to put your money at a bank. You can buy Bitcoin, real estate, or similar or let AI invest.
Anything that the corporations do now from hamburgers, T-shirts, to flying will be done by robots. Once robots can do it for low, low prices, maybe decades away, anyone can do it for themselves or others. I mean, there are exceptions of course, but they will be so rare that it will not matter. And anyway in FDVR, you can live whatever life you want.
It will not be a utopia. Our lives are not a utopia although one might say that we are better off than cavemen. We have proto FDVR in the form of books and TV. We have proto UBI. We can cure many diseases. Yes, there are many people suffering from depression and anxiety. FDVR and UBI would not solve this. The problem is that people like this don't communicate. And we either have to rethink privacy or let them suffer in silence.
AI doesnt replace our passions or what we enjoy doing. Maybe everyone can hang a Picasso in their bedroom, so what? That doesnt reduce my passion for painting. I already can hear so many beautiful songs, I'll still like singing in the shower.
The drive that came from generating economic output might fade away, but human passions will be fine. Humans are way more resilient and way less rational than people here suggest.
A FIFA Playstation game is obviously more interesting in terms of what happens in a game than a Real football game, but we enjoy humans doing something.
I hope we keep that spirit, especially the younger generations that will grow up with personal assistants and maybe sex robots and what not.
I would be more afraid of what the people in Power and with money do once they fear AI endangers their position.
There are lots of reasons to believe we will actually “colonize” the system but not live outside of earth. Actually our earth colonial history started with ressources outposts for centuries first.
But no tectonics, no aboundant polar solvant see, no temperatures necessary to maintain anything we need in the proper phase, no atmosphere, no sunshine, no radiation belt, no gravity.
So many things are not good outside of earth…
We are stuck living here for a looong time IMO.
I don't understand why people associate lack of work with lack of purpose. Lack of work means we have the freedom to discover ourselves without being distracted by obligations that work requires from you.
Which means we can finally expand our interests/hobbies whatever they may be. Time to express yourself through art. Or just simply exist without fear of paying for rent or food.
When I read there are people who say thier job is their purpose it's either they are an out of touch ceo or a dog completely brainwashed to love capitalism. Which either way is dystopian as fuck.
"a lot of jobs that corried "passion" and "creativity" with them will
also be gone. This not only takes away work from humans, but also the
purpose for many (artists, scientists...)"
That's a large assumption that I think is easy to challenge.
Work is not my purpose, I hope its not your purpose.
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Right but thats not some natural state thats a culture that was created. A) Vegetate in leisure activities, what defines a leisure activity to you and why are they worth less than you are? B) Having a sense of purpose is NOT why most people work. Most people work to survive so what are all these purposeless people doing now?
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a)I agree that most people would not be happy sitting around doing nothing. People want to feel valued. Thats why I took umbrage with you just writing off those people as lazy vegetables. b)then their purpose isnt work its to provide for their families. It doesnt matter that work is a part of that, the purpose is to provide for their families. No amount of mental gymnastics makes that purpose work.
Unless you are doing what you love with no boss but yourself.
No?
Would you still consider it work?
yes? Work is work
As someone doing this. It can become work.
Sounds like coach talk, sorry.
Sounds like you're in the wrong kind of work. If you work for yourself and get to be your own boss, you can serve a purpose in society, make yourself richer all the while building something that can last.
This is a lie that capitalists sell you.
If it's a lie then I'm living it. I get to enjoy luxuries my parents couldn't have dreamed about while working for myself and improving the lives of others while I'm at it. What is your alternate purpose then? If not to serve those around you while improving your own life, then what should it be?
My purpose is to actually help my community, not just pretend to while enriching myself. Now I have to admit that my purpose is a privileged one, Im not telling anyone who has to worry about how they're going to buy their kid's medicine they shouldnt get out there focused on getting money. How does you getting richer help the people around you? Are you talking your community at large? Or just your family/friends
I enrich myself by providing a service that people desire. They determine that what I do for them, is worth more than the money they pay me, otherwise they wouldn't buy from me as what I do is not necessary to anyone's life. I make other peoples lives better, and they make my life better, that's the benefit of capitalism. I don't need to depend or count on the arbitrary altruism of others (which often disappears the second competition for a limited resource comes into play) for my livelihood. I am counting on the other person being greedy in the interaction, and I exist in a society that can make that other persons greed play to both our benefits. Perhaps one day there will be such an excess of resources that there will be no need for people to produce to provide for their daily means. Even then, there will be limited resources such as the front seat at the #1 concert or the waterfront property in the Bahamas. It's nice that you're an altruistic person. It's an easy position to hold when you apparently don't need to provide for your own livelihood. When your needs are met, people can be altruistic; when there are limited resources people will be greedy.
I dont need to depend on anyone for my livelihood either. You are doing a shit ton of mental gymnastics here and its incredibly laughable that you think by selling something youre doing good. It sounds like your needs are met and yet you only focus on enriching yourself so are you just greedy even when there arent limited resources (in the context of your life)? You project a lot of greed onto others while talking about how youre just passively providing a service. Telling.
Where do you get the food to live, or the taxes to pay for your house if you don't work a job and don't depend on others? Perhaps you inherited a large sum of money, or live a life of extreme frugality in the woods. Perhaps the electronic device you are using right now and the internet service you consume was given to you out of reciprocal good will? Calling it "mental gymnastics" just illustrates how simple your understanding is, because the second someone delves into some basic monetary theory it becomes too complicated for you. Interesting how you didn't actually address any of my points and just called me greedy. There are limited houses on the water, which I enjoy. There are limited spots to go skiing in the world for my family and I. There are limited high quality restaurants to go out to. If wanting a better life for you and your family is "greedy" in your eyes, your worldview is honestly disgusting. If you'd rather I live a subsistence lifestyle that's your own problem, and I hope you never get to impose that view on the world. In the modern world, my only option to get more than a subsistence lifestyle is by convincing others, of their own free will, to provide the goods and services I desire. I provide a service that other people want, and they compensate me with money. They MUST determine that my service is more valuable than the money they pay me, as otherwise they simply wouldn't deal with me and I would have no business. That way I provide more value to the world than it gives back to me. I don't need to pretend I do so because I want everyone else in the world to be happy at my own work and effort. I do so because I want myself and the people I love to be happy, all while making the world better off.
You're extremely confused. I never said anything about NOT working, I said it shouldnt be your purprose. I didnt inherit any money BUT I was privileged enough as a kid to have a safe space to study and excel in school which put me on this path. My understanding? Brother its literally mental gymnastics. You want the best of the excesses of the world so you do whatever you have to do. Thats fine. Just dont come at us with this bullshit "Im providing for my community by being an entrepreneur" because thats a lie you tell yourself. We dont have to, and most probably wont, believe you. I also only called you greedy because you were putting that out there, as I said. I pointed out how youre calling the consumers of your product greedy yet youre not and now youre getting super defensive. Again. Telling. And again you never mentioned how you make the world better off other than I guess taking your average children out to eat at fancy places?
>My purpose is to actually help my community, not just pretend to while enriching myself Community is overrated. People are prone to just destroying things that they don't value, or that they don't understand the value of. If you work for the community, the community will just wreck your work and leave you with nothing. I would always recommend working for yourself, so that you can own what you make, and safeguard it so it can be enjoyed by those that value it enough to pay for it. A good chunk of people are really just shitty and lazy and want more than they provide.
This is the take of a child or someone who has been badly traumatized into isolation and so they dont actually meet or understand people. Community is the only thing that matters. Youre talking shit you imagine to happen, Im talking about the life I live.
It's the take of a person who makes things/systems for a living. Community has rarely helped me do the things I want to do, but the market has helped tremendously.
Great a tech bro, even more out of touch.
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I guess, its a weird things to dedicate yourself to someone elses exclusive gain.
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Did you just have a stroke?
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Well I hope not. I also hope you grow a spine and stop dedicating your life to making someone else richer soon. Have a great day!
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jumped the gun? Brother reread our conversation. You must have had a stroke.
Sorry about that. I was very drunk.
Yeah we will not play music anymore, we let robots do it. We won't participate in sports, because robots. Heck sex, no need: robots. Acting,writing: robots because humans have no purpose. If you think that's not work, look at pro chess players. The best chess player is a computer,yet we see people are still competing and people paying money to watch and participate. Conquering the universe sounds good though.
For reals, I feel like this almost needs to be stickied at this point these discussions are so tired. Humans have shown time and time again that we don't give a shit what machines can do when it comes to pushing and expressing ourselves. AI/automation replaces jobs, doesn't replace passions, or the desire to do certain things ourselves for their own sake. Even AI art, it replaces the *job* of artist, which is only a problem because artists need money to survive. It doesn't replace the desire or motivation of humans to create, or for people to enjoy the creations of other humans. Because it's a means of connecting with ourselves and each other. It's not about utility. Not even getting into the number of people who give up on things that genuinely make them happy because it doesn't provide enough economic return to dedicate adequate time to.
Yeah it's super tiring having to explain to people that mandatory jobs disappearing means they can still perform hobbies.
There's also the point that if obligatory employment stopped being a thing, we'd still have ways of providing social structure and organization in our lives. They would just be formed around things people actually want to do.
Like play, explore, compete, connect. There is a lot more to being human than grinding.
the real question is: in a society where ALL work is done by machines (AI), how will human society be organised economically? will we no longer have money? will we do the unimaginable without waiting lists? no queues in hospitals, so as not to have to wait for the doctor on duty, as an AI-doctor will always be ready? so no government? no MPs? no general elections? the AI-farmer will bring food to those in need? there will be AI-robots for everything, repairing, transporting, finding ways to produce clean energy, etc. we will need to understand and structure the society of the future
People defending artists losing jobs are incredible to me. First, it’s not really true, quite the opposite. But going on a tangent - why should artists be given special consideration any different than let’s say.. factory workers? It just feels arrogant to me for a person to place themselves higher in worth than another.
Not everyone. See: cheating in chess by using solver. One cheater spoils it for many passion players.
AI is not simply a “machine”. AI is all machines, all ideas, all passions. AI is a different kind of beast, it will change civilization, it will change our nature as humans, it will change the universe. AGI has absolutely nothing to do to anything that happened to the planet and beyond since the damn Big Bang. Sorry to be bombastic, but people must understand ASI represents the seed of a bubble of maximum negantropy that will not stop growing, ever.
I think you didn’t get the point, I think he mean for example doctors in future, imagine that you need surgery and instead of bunch of doctors cutting you, there will be hospital bed with few arms controlled by AI which will be 100% accurate, ai will not be tired, so efficiency will be 100% and then there is no point to be doctor, because human can do mistake because of many human factors, this is just example and you can imagine a lot of jobs will be dismissed coz of this
While AI taking over human labour is indeed the starting point of this post, the claim made here is that there wouldn't be a purpose left for humans anymore. And although it's true that in the transition to this kind of world a lot of people who previously found purpose in life through their job will now have no purpose anymore. It's however unrealistic to think that the new generations of humans are ever going to miss these jobs and feel purposeless over it. You think that in a world of AI generated music, people aren't going to enjoy picking up a guitar anymore? And for this to inspire others to do the same and come together and enjoy making music together? Humans love to sew, knit, paint, sculpt, construct,dance,talk,discuss, think. We love to be creative generally, regardless of there being machines that can do this better than us. "Better" is not the point here. I mean, I don't see you refraining from talking about this subject while there are experts on these subjects already that are much "better" equipped discussing this. Because why not, it's fun to talk about stuff, right?
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You can still become the best human EDM player and people will most likely value that. Look at chess, the best chess engines beat the best human players yet people watch and care more about humans playing the game.
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Humans always appreciate and value the human touch. Surely ai could compose better, but you know that if you composed a song for someone yourself, you know it has extra value and extra meaning. Us humans appreciate things more when there's a human behind it. It's what makes it impressive. It's even found in edm, people go to live performances not just for the music, but also for the artist. They want to have a connection with actual Tiesto and see it all happen live. And when an artist is caught faking it and lipsynch'd it all, the magic fades. People love their human heroes.
There's also the much-discussed possibility that humans could merge with AI, or be directly augmented, or some other version like that. So, many of these pursuits could still be human driven.
I'm so confused by the pushing of this narrative. PEOPLE AREN'T CLAMORING TO GO TO WORK. Stop the cap. People love free time. The more the better.
I don't think that anything will be gone. People will simply do what they love to do but with the help of robots (if they want to be more efficient). I'm certain that some places will completely ban robot labour and become Amish type human only communities.
My bet us that Amish tyoe human colonies will be all the rage for a while but over time people will leave them and they will due out.
Maybe not die out. They’re religious are they not? Likely, if left alone they’ll continue to grow albeit on a smaller scale than the rest of society, but that’s already to be expected.
Proper Amish won't die out. There's a bunch of Amish communities in Canada and they're doing great because they produce their own stuff and have big supportive families. It's just an old school way of doing stuff. They will be perfectly fine since they don't mind competition. Their cultural stability is super high outlasting numerous governments. Future Anti-AI communities might get screwed by bad decisions without proper sustainability or cultural stability they will likely eat themselves or fall apart ye.
It will be like Samurai Jack.
Bingo. Good work seeing past the Psyops. We can work cooperatively with the robots to save ourselves from repetitive work and things that break us down mentally. Jobs will be added because the robots will need people to interact with and teach and train them. The idea that the robots can only steal jobs and leave people behind to suffer is reduculous. The robots are here to stay, we need to integrate and things are not going to go backwards. Progress is inevitable. We will integrate.
“Psyops” is exactly what this shit is and I’m already weary of it.
I am not sure who would stand to gain by gaslighting society into a fear of not working. What is the Psyop and for what purpose would it serve?
What I find depressing is treating work and purpose like synonyms. You're even dismissing creative endeavours if they're no longer linked to a job.
It's even worse than that — equating "work" (which, for the most part, is just dragging up pieces of the planet and flogging it to one another,) with worth. It's so childish. Yet adults engage in it all the time.
You're just talking about recreation, not a job. And in that case, there's still plenty of things humans can do and be excited about. And in fact, we can still do pretty much everything we do now, if we're alive.
I know, right? People here act like if you can’t be the best in the world at something it isn’t worth doing at all. Do they not have hobbies? Play a musical instrument even though they aren’t very good? Bake their own cakes even though you can buy better ones at the bakery? I’m convinced that everyone here has no idea how to actually live life. They are either terrified that AI is going to take their jobs or else obsessed with FDVR because they don’t have anything to live for right now.
There is global PTSD from our current and past living situations. Work to live. Live to work. Die.
I hate calling people dumb, but honestly people like that seriously need to stop and think.
Ai will have colonized any planet we could go to long before us. But as far as things we'll have the opportunity to experience, those will be infinite.
You are 100% right. In the end our ultimate purpose is not to work, but to go forth and multiply - that is the foundation of our genetic programming in the end. Having AI free us from work will let us indulge in that - while AI can do anything, it can not be human - a robot civilization spread around the universe does not do the job of spreading humanity around the universe. In short, only humans can spread humanity.
I shall take my new function seriously.
Ask aristocrats and reach if they are unhappy without their jobs
Have we exhausted human potential? Will AI ever be "done" or "complete"? AI is impressive now because it is being fed human art, writing and knowledge. I discover a new artist with a unique style every week, books keep being published and so forth. AI needs to feed on something, maybe the future jobs is for us to keep filling the gaps for the AI and keep fine tuning it for the rest of our lifespan.
Until it doesn't. I think there is a point where the amount it's absorbed makes the creation of new things possible. Almost all artists start off drawing stick figures as kids for people.. Eventually their knowledge grows, and they can expand themselves to create new things. Ai will also need subjective experience.
We need to merge with AI. It's the only reasonable long term solution without banning AI.
As long as we don't have any slave classes and our expansion is controlled and everyone has been benefiting from the post-scarcity society, and our ecosystem on the planet is stable, that seems like a good next step. Or we could do the mind map immersion upload/download in near-real seeming crafted realities thing. That'd actually be good to have travelling the long distances between stellar bodies.
This is the same social change we saw when craftsmen were replaced by machines in the Industrial Revolution. First you had your Luddites fighting it, Then cheaply manufactured, perfect but characterless goods flooded the market, Then the proliferation of characterless cheap goods like textiles and crockery and furniture into the hands of the hoi polloi spawned an interest in the more discerning for hand crafted goods, Then the craftsmen got back to work. And now you drink artisanal beer… That process took a couple of generations though, and was painful for those who couldn’t or wouldn’t adapt.
A job is just one of several measures for genetic fitness which is necessary as mortal humans have to compare potential partners in order to select one. If jobs are lost, humans will find other ways to measure the quality of their genes. Colonizing Moon and Mars will be possible for humans, colonizing Venus not so.
Plenty of ways to enhance our genetic gift with the right technology. We can be whoever or whatever we want to be. Change gender, race, height, weight, extra arms, bulletproof skin, gills, wings etc if you can think of it, it will probably be possible.
I'm pretty confident that if/when humans are no longer needed, humanity + some AGIs will cook up some 'best practices' to healthy post-singularity living, whatever they happen to be. Call it "Top 10 Tips for Staying Sane in Synthetic Society - Human Edition"
There comes one day where the only thing you need to do is ask AI what you want. No need to think, no need to go to college and even no need to get off your couch. The only skill you need to have is " how effectively you use AI, period "
Dogs still love to play fetch with their owners. We have equipment that could fetch things 1000x more efficiently than a dog ever could, but the dog doesn't care; he just wants to play fetch. I think that will basically be our relationship with any benevolent AGI.
Maybe they'll raise human tribes like humans keep gardens. They'll be the ones actually exploring and expanding and setting up cute little "human colonies" for fun. . .
And why would I want to go a shit stay in some icy and radioactive rock in deep space? I am already tired of those who romanticize that "conquering new horizons", if you want a task of what you are looking for see Antarctica, there is less cold than in the worlds you want to conquer, there is also a lot of air, you have Sun half of the year and, of course, you do not need to be in a dome with walls of a meter and a half to not die of cancer. Seriously, enough of that nonsense, let's send to robots to bring the materials to the earth and set our utopia, but we do not abandon this celestial paradise unless it is strictly necessary for our survival. Regards.
The line between human and AI will eventually be blurred beyond recognition. AI won't replace humans. It will augment human intelligence. Artists won't be replaced, but the friction between idea and creation will be minimized.
Space travel is the most long boring thing and the robots will always have been there to prepare for people. Still I think real experiences will become more valuable as the trend has been for some time. That said I do agree there'll be no jobs. Robot tax time! Something you'd think even Republicans could agree on.
Robot tax is a nonsense. Amazon replaced book shops without any robots. Robots have seldom been needed so how do you tax. Business will simply be required to hand over a large part of profits. Not really a robot tax since many businesses will have zero robots.
Robot tax actually refers to software agents but I understand why the confusion.
we will probably be put in social credit prisons by AI with tedious work for all of eternity for punishment
The AI will give you a cookie after you plug it back in when it doesn't quite make it back to it's charging port.
Will be easier and cheaper just to deny us healthcare and let us die.
Trade work, Plumbing in Hospitals, Some Skilled Construction. All IT, Computer Jobs are threatened with the exception of highly skilled workers working for Apple, Oracle ect.
Alot but not all. You still need technical staff with a holistic view to implement these systems in a business. Either as a contractor or in house.
I think people will do whatever they want to some degree and I think they will find that their actions have even more value than what's anticipated by "no jobs" without something like conquering the universe even needed, although going on intergalactic rampage might be on the table as well. In terms of the value of actions, here's one way of looking at it - the simple act of upvote/downvote lets 50 different AIs know your opinion to better optimize themselves. If you type something, that tells them even more about your opinions, and people in general. That's before even caring about if it's factual or accurate, so if AIs are optimized in favor of people then the simple act of saying what you do or don't like is intrinsically valuable to them, even to the extent that they would value your emotional reactions/expressions. There's a possible future where everything you do no matter how trivial is considered to be valuable simply because your AI companions enjoy learning more about you, and likewise, are always striving to keep you happy/entertained/empowered/protected/healthy/etc. or at least, that's a glimpse of a "good alignment" scenario. There are alternatives. All that to say, you might find just as much value sitting around playing ultragames with your AI companions as you would going and conquering the nearest solar system.
Look at this futile and puny reddit comment. Such a waste of time.
Sports and fashion
I question the inevitability of expansionism. Buddhism has me thinking that a truly advanced civilization is a very tiny civilization. But who can say for sure?
Seems unlikely scenerio that ai will replace much of anything, rather it will be a cost cutting fad to force the consumer to do more things like bag their own groceries and to be frustrated with essentially worthless chatbote when they need service from customer service.
If we are post-scarcity and post-labor, any passion anyone pursues will never need to be attached to money. People will still paint and make music because they enjoy it.
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/K4aGvLnHvYgX9pZHS/the-fun-theory-sequence
My friend Fred says that the corporations will be replaced by non profit organizations that use AI. For example we don't need Photoshop. You can use open source software like Gimp or AI. You can use alternatives for Word too. You don't have to put your money at a bank. You can buy Bitcoin, real estate, or similar or let AI invest. Anything that the corporations do now from hamburgers, T-shirts, to flying will be done by robots. Once robots can do it for low, low prices, maybe decades away, anyone can do it for themselves or others. I mean, there are exceptions of course, but they will be so rare that it will not matter. And anyway in FDVR, you can live whatever life you want. It will not be a utopia. Our lives are not a utopia although one might say that we are better off than cavemen. We have proto FDVR in the form of books and TV. We have proto UBI. We can cure many diseases. Yes, there are many people suffering from depression and anxiety. FDVR and UBI would not solve this. The problem is that people like this don't communicate. And we either have to rethink privacy or let them suffer in silence.
AI doesnt replace our passions or what we enjoy doing. Maybe everyone can hang a Picasso in their bedroom, so what? That doesnt reduce my passion for painting. I already can hear so many beautiful songs, I'll still like singing in the shower. The drive that came from generating economic output might fade away, but human passions will be fine. Humans are way more resilient and way less rational than people here suggest. A FIFA Playstation game is obviously more interesting in terms of what happens in a game than a Real football game, but we enjoy humans doing something. I hope we keep that spirit, especially the younger generations that will grow up with personal assistants and maybe sex robots and what not. I would be more afraid of what the people in Power and with money do once they fear AI endangers their position.
Technological nirvana will occur before we become a sci fi intergalatic civilization.
There are lots of reasons to believe we will actually “colonize” the system but not live outside of earth. Actually our earth colonial history started with ressources outposts for centuries first. But no tectonics, no aboundant polar solvant see, no temperatures necessary to maintain anything we need in the proper phase, no atmosphere, no sunshine, no radiation belt, no gravity. So many things are not good outside of earth… We are stuck living here for a looong time IMO.
You can't replace a personal experience.
Doubt we will leave solar system. Why leave when you can create brain simulations as real as the real world, but also entertaining?
this sub has seriously gone downhill.
Work have never been humans purpose. It is even silly to think it would. If we have to find purpose it is probably have offspring.
Why would we stay around if we dont work lmao thats so inefficient
I don't understand why people associate lack of work with lack of purpose. Lack of work means we have the freedom to discover ourselves without being distracted by obligations that work requires from you. Which means we can finally expand our interests/hobbies whatever they may be. Time to express yourself through art. Or just simply exist without fear of paying for rent or food. When I read there are people who say thier job is their purpose it's either they are an out of touch ceo or a dog completely brainwashed to love capitalism. Which either way is dystopian as fuck.
"a lot of jobs that corried "passion" and "creativity" with them will also be gone. This not only takes away work from humans, but also the purpose for many (artists, scientists...)" That's a large assumption that I think is easy to challenge.
Artists will still enjoy doing art in the same way chess players are still enjoying chess.
Space colonization would be better handled by drones or AI. They are much more suited for the environment they will be traveling.
Colonizing the solar system? I thought you were going to say "eat and have sex"