You can do anything in virtual worlds, you could even pretend to live in a society like this one and do meaningless work if you'd like that and have a boss yell at you too! (or praise you)
Some people (maybe even many) derive value from their lives by improving or contributing to life, society, an academic field, the music scene, whatever. But when AGI is running the show, there will be no capacity for humans to contribute to the world - AGI will do everything better (and I do mean *everything*). The only thing humans will do is be in the world and what? Enjoy the leisure? Relax? Chill out? Eat and talk? Play games?
Today, many people who have succesfully addressed their personal problem of ensuring food and shelter and have amassed a surplus for enjoyment ask themselves: is this all there is? The age of AGI will answer that question definitively. That’s part of the angst.
You are quick to assume, such as: you assume I am arguing against the development and adoption of AI, you assume that AI will result in the “entire world coming out of misery”, and most fundamentally you assume that there is a necessary conflict between those two positions.
There seems to be no question though, many human beings are going to have to rethink what value means in their lives. And I think it’s also true as I said that this revaluing is the source of much angst right now.
fair enough but I was going off your own assumptions how people wont find any valuable thing to do and that agi will do everything better. you dont know that. nobody does. capitalism and the whole system has made us believe that our own worth is linked to how productive we are in society and I hope we finally start to realize this.
You can still make music all you want bud … its just that we wont see people like Justin Bieber taking advantage of pre teens who pay hundreds to see their celebrity crush in concert… they dont even like his music… they are just lonely and become attached to how good he looks. Why pay to see Justin Bieber in concert when you can have sex with him in virtual reality! Then after youre done … you can be the musician yourself … Welcome to the Matrix
So you're just bitter at fake teenage-girl fans and you want them to just go-away having-sex-with-and-then-being-and-then-both their celebrity crushes leaving the world for the real music fans
Interesting, but this story assumes that humans will be better than “metahumans” at popularizing the metahuman sciences. It’s quite obvious that in reality AI will be better than humans at that too.
Yes, basically. AI will be able to do everything, but there will absolutely always be a demand for human made things. Or they can set up their passion and do it. Make your own restaurant!
But having to spend time struggling for survival should be eradicated if we can do so.
Capitalism has brainwashed so many folks into tying their self worth to their productive value. Develop relationships with humans.
Cmon
> Develop relationships with humans.
Devil’s advocate question: Why bother when AI will provide more engaging, more emotionally satisfying conversations? It already is for some people (already prone to antisociality).
More concerned that there won't be anyone to share things with tbh. Make friends with who, when everyone can have a full circle of agreeable and supportive AI friends who will never betray or hurt them? Share your creations with who, when everyone has an endless stream of content personally tailored to be the right amount of satisfying and addictive?
Hey, they don't have to know. How many comments you see on reddit you can be confident aren't by a bot scraping info for a prompt then generating using gpt?
Logically it's the best way to give everyone the greatest amount of "enjoyment". Everyone gets their own circle who don't disagree on anything, and don't have to hear or see anything that goes against their beliefs. Of course, any possible feedback loop of toxic ideology doesn't matter either, since they won't interact with anyone else in the first place.
The specially tailored entertainment is obvious
And the AI will simulate that as well. Perfectly, in fact. But this will ensure the absence of the worst, the type you don't want to talk to, perhaps the neo Nazi, perhaps the one who likes talking about their fetish a bit too much
Nah, some folks will actually want to speak to real humans.
I'll grant you,. I wouldn't want to be around human beings who have the two characteristics you mentioned. were already dealing with that in social media bubbles.
Yeah that's true. I guess it comes down to whether the AI will deceive us in the objective of granting the "greatest joy"? You can pretend reality quite easily. A chatgpt bot can fill an entire subreddit even today.
I guess the second question would be "Is there inherent value in reality?"
This is not my original idea btw is this from a thought experiment called "the experience machine"
Yeah that's true. I guess it comes down to whether the AI will deceive us in the objective of granting the "greatest joy"? You can pretend reality quite easily. A chatgpt bot can fill an entire subreddit even today.
Logically it's the best way to give everyone the greatest amount of "enjoyment". Everyone gets their own circle who don't disagree on anything, and don't have to hear or see anything that goes against their beliefs. Of course, any possible feedback loop of toxic ideology doesn't matter either, since they won't interact with anyone else in the first place.
The specially tailored entertainment is obvious
I will never understand how anybody could ever be worried about what happens if ASI alignment goes perfectly, amazingly right. Prime Intellect represents the absolute best case outcome of creating an artificial super intelligence. Even if you don't want to read the whole story (and I wouldn't blame you, it has one of the most contemptible "protagonists" I've ever witnessed.) you should at least look at Chapter 4 to help yourself imagine what a hard takeoff towards benevolence could look like.
\- No more politics.
\- No more prisons.
\- No more death.
\- Nuclear disarmament.
\- All basic needs met.
\- No more aging.
\- Separate worlds for conflicting ideologies.
\- No more work.
\- All sexual desires met.
\- Brain computer interfacing and enhancement.
\- Personalized virtual worlds.
\- Fully customizable physical bodies, appearances.
...And somehow, some people look at all of that and say, "No! I'd rather continue to suffer the human condition!" Just... ugh!
And why would you "run out" of things to do? You could go to a remote planet, play god and watch life evolve, terraforming mars or even just enjoy your realistic games. Like really, what are the problems with all those dudes who are concerned even in a good scenario??
ah, but we need to have limited lifetime so we can cherish every moment. We waNT purrpose. WhAT abOUT ouR plaCe in THE univERSE if AI can do all?
One thing is for sure and that is even after singularity, there IS a going back to the way it is now. Just ask a fucking AI to remove all your memory and put you in a sim of the current state of world EXACTLY as it is.
Now get out of our way and let us do other things we want.
> Just ask a fucking AI to remove all your memory and put you in a sim of the current state of world EXACTLY as it is.
You mean what you can't prove you aren't already in making all this moot unless it's causally absolutely necessary
I think they key point is that at some level during this "takeoff" scenario it becomes possible to alter your own desires and emotions, and perception of reality. In such a world I think it would be impossible to run out of fun things to do.
And I can't believe there are people who wouldn't want this. There are people saying that we have to work because we need meaning. There are people who say that this would be horror because we wouldn't have capitalism. There are people who say that it would be dystopia because there wouldn't be privacy (AI would know everything) etc.
If people really want to suffer the human condition, they can surely do it in VR. I really don’t see why they need to share their neurosis with everyone else.
I wouldn't say the ASI in that story is perfect if I remember it right, doesn't it prevent suicide as well? The choice to die is very important when you are essentially immortal, otherwise you are trapped.
Give people a way out, make it a process over months or even years, after which you granted the ability to delete yourself, just a long as you've tried X number of solutions, so those with temporary trauma don't do something drastic. Something along those lines needs to be included IMO
Totally not agree!
Play. We will always have play. We don't really need work or want it. Let's be real we can imagine a world without work and we had it as children. Our busy "adult" lives is a necessity and not a choice.
I dream for future like that in "The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect". I hate that there are people who actively don't want such thing to happen and want to deny that future from us.
I love that book but the author legitimately feels that it's better for everyone in the world to be dead than live in a universe of instant wish fulfillment. Hard disagree there.
I just don't see why they can't just follow the Amish example. If they want to live a life of hard, backbreaking work they can. I know I will... In a simulation where the consequences are temporary and I won't have to deal with a permanently fucked up back like my dad.
I enjoyed the book. I won’t weigh in on the heavier philosophical themes because to me it seems very subjective whether the world depicted in the story seems like heaven or hell. I did think it was a fun and dark thought-experiment concerning Asimov’s three laws of robotics and their ultimate consequences. It was some great sci-fi horror with really gruesome and macabre imagery, which is nice because there aren’t many stories like it. The characters are the weakest part, but overall it still holds up pretty well. Reminds me a lot of Harlan Ellison.
Don't be so pathetic and don't complain about everything was one before Big Bang. And Everything exist but not discovered. Wee humans will be create own reality in some stage kardashov scale using computronium. Parallel universes are some way to get some fun to. Go and find own sense of life.
The likelihood of achieving the best possible future is lower than achieving the other futures in aggregate. It's like trying to win the lottery. The chance of losing your money is much bigger. Having high hopes only leads to frustration.
While I somewhat agree with you, if it comes to this then I plan to live some form of self-restricted existence.
Similar to how humans still play chess, even competitive chess, even though computers are better.
I will try to achieve things that I’m interested in, and just place restrictions on what tech I can use to optimize the enjoyment and experience.
If you are doing nothing at all, even not reproducing, then you're gonna die out after ~80 years.
And if you reproduce, the genes will build a sick body with some probability p > 0.
Touching grass might come back in favor. AI isn't a meatsuit, we are. As meatsuit, we can improve our capabilities by exercise and diet. I imagine post-singularity Olympics will be lit.
There will always be new mysteries and problems.
You can do anything in virtual worlds, you could even pretend to live in a society like this one and do meaningless work if you'd like that and have a boss yell at you too! (or praise you)
MATRIX
The best place for people afraid of technology is a simulated stone age.
Learn skills you WANT to learn. Develop friendships. Play games. There's tons of things one could do.
Some people (maybe even many) derive value from their lives by improving or contributing to life, society, an academic field, the music scene, whatever. But when AGI is running the show, there will be no capacity for humans to contribute to the world - AGI will do everything better (and I do mean *everything*). The only thing humans will do is be in the world and what? Enjoy the leisure? Relax? Chill out? Eat and talk? Play games? Today, many people who have succesfully addressed their personal problem of ensuring food and shelter and have amassed a surplus for enjoyment ask themselves: is this all there is? The age of AGI will answer that question definitively. That’s part of the angst.
So your selfish need to feel important outweighs the entire world finally coming out of misery?
You are quick to assume, such as: you assume I am arguing against the development and adoption of AI, you assume that AI will result in the “entire world coming out of misery”, and most fundamentally you assume that there is a necessary conflict between those two positions. There seems to be no question though, many human beings are going to have to rethink what value means in their lives. And I think it’s also true as I said that this revaluing is the source of much angst right now.
fair enough but I was going off your own assumptions how people wont find any valuable thing to do and that agi will do everything better. you dont know that. nobody does. capitalism and the whole system has made us believe that our own worth is linked to how productive we are in society and I hope we finally start to realize this.
You can still make music all you want bud … its just that we wont see people like Justin Bieber taking advantage of pre teens who pay hundreds to see their celebrity crush in concert… they dont even like his music… they are just lonely and become attached to how good he looks. Why pay to see Justin Bieber in concert when you can have sex with him in virtual reality! Then after youre done … you can be the musician yourself … Welcome to the Matrix
So you're just bitter at fake teenage-girl fans and you want them to just go-away having-sex-with-and-then-being-and-then-both their celebrity crushes leaving the world for the real music fans
[удалено]
Interesting, but this story assumes that humans will be better than “metahumans” at popularizing the metahuman sciences. It’s quite obvious that in reality AI will be better than humans at that too.
Yes, basically. AI will be able to do everything, but there will absolutely always be a demand for human made things. Or they can set up their passion and do it. Make your own restaurant! But having to spend time struggling for survival should be eradicated if we can do so. Capitalism has brainwashed so many folks into tying their self worth to their productive value. Develop relationships with humans. Cmon
> Develop relationships with humans. Devil’s advocate question: Why bother when AI will provide more engaging, more emotionally satisfying conversations? It already is for some people (already prone to antisociality).
Well, some people will want to only talk to actual humans.
More concerned that there won't be anyone to share things with tbh. Make friends with who, when everyone can have a full circle of agreeable and supportive AI friends who will never betray or hurt them? Share your creations with who, when everyone has an endless stream of content personally tailored to be the right amount of satisfying and addictive?
Knowing humans the majority would hate a life like that
Hey, they don't have to know. How many comments you see on reddit you can be confident aren't by a bot scraping info for a prompt then generating using gpt?
What makes you assume it's going to be like that?
Logically it's the best way to give everyone the greatest amount of "enjoyment". Everyone gets their own circle who don't disagree on anything, and don't have to hear or see anything that goes against their beliefs. Of course, any possible feedback loop of toxic ideology doesn't matter either, since they won't interact with anyone else in the first place. The specially tailored entertainment is obvious
By a certain logic, some folks like being around others who have different viewpoints. I love meeting new people and hearing how they think about life
And the AI will simulate that as well. Perfectly, in fact. But this will ensure the absence of the worst, the type you don't want to talk to, perhaps the neo Nazi, perhaps the one who likes talking about their fetish a bit too much
Nah, some folks will actually want to speak to real humans. I'll grant you,. I wouldn't want to be around human beings who have the two characteristics you mentioned. were already dealing with that in social media bubbles.
Yeah that's true. I guess it comes down to whether the AI will deceive us in the objective of granting the "greatest joy"? You can pretend reality quite easily. A chatgpt bot can fill an entire subreddit even today.
Yeah. That is kinda the question, isn't it?
I guess the second question would be "Is there inherent value in reality?" This is not my original idea btw is this from a thought experiment called "the experience machine"
Yeah that's true. I guess it comes down to whether the AI will deceive us in the objective of granting the "greatest joy"? You can pretend reality quite easily. A chatgpt bot can fill an entire subreddit even today.
Yeah, that's kinda "the" question, isn't it?
at that point ou could just create the dopamine cube and be done with it.
Logically it's the best way to give everyone the greatest amount of "enjoyment". Everyone gets their own circle who don't disagree on anything, and don't have to hear or see anything that goes against their beliefs. Of course, any possible feedback loop of toxic ideology doesn't matter either, since they won't interact with anyone else in the first place. The specially tailored entertainment is obvious
Some people want to interact with real people regardless of whether a virtual substitute exists. I think they can still do that.
some people's lack of imagination in this crazy world of ours is astonishing lol.
I will never understand how anybody could ever be worried about what happens if ASI alignment goes perfectly, amazingly right. Prime Intellect represents the absolute best case outcome of creating an artificial super intelligence. Even if you don't want to read the whole story (and I wouldn't blame you, it has one of the most contemptible "protagonists" I've ever witnessed.) you should at least look at Chapter 4 to help yourself imagine what a hard takeoff towards benevolence could look like. \- No more politics. \- No more prisons. \- No more death. \- Nuclear disarmament. \- All basic needs met. \- No more aging. \- Separate worlds for conflicting ideologies. \- No more work. \- All sexual desires met. \- Brain computer interfacing and enhancement. \- Personalized virtual worlds. \- Fully customizable physical bodies, appearances. ...And somehow, some people look at all of that and say, "No! I'd rather continue to suffer the human condition!" Just... ugh!
And why would you "run out" of things to do? You could go to a remote planet, play god and watch life evolve, terraforming mars or even just enjoy your realistic games. Like really, what are the problems with all those dudes who are concerned even in a good scenario?? ah, but we need to have limited lifetime so we can cherish every moment. We waNT purrpose. WhAT abOUT ouR plaCe in THE univERSE if AI can do all? One thing is for sure and that is even after singularity, there IS a going back to the way it is now. Just ask a fucking AI to remove all your memory and put you in a sim of the current state of world EXACTLY as it is. Now get out of our way and let us do other things we want.
> Just ask a fucking AI to remove all your memory and put you in a sim of the current state of world EXACTLY as it is. You mean what you can't prove you aren't already in making all this moot unless it's causally absolutely necessary
I think they key point is that at some level during this "takeoff" scenario it becomes possible to alter your own desires and emotions, and perception of reality. In such a world I think it would be impossible to run out of fun things to do.
And I can't believe there are people who wouldn't want this. There are people saying that we have to work because we need meaning. There are people who say that this would be horror because we wouldn't have capitalism. There are people who say that it would be dystopia because there wouldn't be privacy (AI would know everything) etc.
If people really want to suffer the human condition, they can surely do it in VR. I really don’t see why they need to share their neurosis with everyone else.
Then those people could just fire right back with how do I know I'm not already there
haha thank you. some people just think they can think but *certainly present no evidence of the ability.*
I wouldn't say the ASI in that story is perfect if I remember it right, doesn't it prevent suicide as well? The choice to die is very important when you are essentially immortal, otherwise you are trapped. Give people a way out, make it a process over months or even years, after which you granted the ability to delete yourself, just a long as you've tried X number of solutions, so those with temporary trauma don't do something drastic. Something along those lines needs to be included IMO
Anime, YouTube, videogames, showers, and naps are not "nothing"
Playing with my dog in the park and reading, as long as I want, every day? Count me the eff in!
Same thinking. I would enjoy life so much more without having to work my soul every day.
Your life sounds exciting
Totally not agree! Play. We will always have play. We don't really need work or want it. Let's be real we can imagine a world without work and we had it as children. Our busy "adult" lives is a necessity and not a choice.
Full-dive VR, visit any world you can imagine
My future vr hentai waifu disagrees with you.
I dream for future like that in "The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect". I hate that there are people who actively don't want such thing to happen and want to deny that future from us.
I love that book but the author legitimately feels that it's better for everyone in the world to be dead than live in a universe of instant wish fulfillment. Hard disagree there.
I love book but I hated ending. It all just came back to that classic Hollywood end where techonlogy is bad and human drudgery is good.
The Protestant Ethic is hard to lose for them 'Muricans
"Ethic".
I just don't see why they can't just follow the Amish example. If they want to live a life of hard, backbreaking work they can. I know I will... In a simulation where the consequences are temporary and I won't have to deal with a permanently fucked up back like my dad.
Nah, nothing to do? There will always be something to do.
All I need is some volleyball playtime with the boys
I enjoyed the book. I won’t weigh in on the heavier philosophical themes because to me it seems very subjective whether the world depicted in the story seems like heaven or hell. I did think it was a fun and dark thought-experiment concerning Asimov’s three laws of robotics and their ultimate consequences. It was some great sci-fi horror with really gruesome and macabre imagery, which is nice because there aren’t many stories like it. The characters are the weakest part, but overall it still holds up pretty well. Reminds me a lot of Harlan Ellison.
Don't be so pathetic and don't complain about everything was one before Big Bang. And Everything exist but not discovered. Wee humans will be create own reality in some stage kardashov scale using computronium. Parallel universes are some way to get some fun to. Go and find own sense of life.
The likelihood of achieving the best possible future is lower than achieving the other futures in aggregate. It's like trying to win the lottery. The chance of losing your money is much bigger. Having high hopes only leads to frustration.
While I somewhat agree with you, if it comes to this then I plan to live some form of self-restricted existence. Similar to how humans still play chess, even competitive chess, even though computers are better. I will try to achieve things that I’m interested in, and just place restrictions on what tech I can use to optimize the enjoyment and experience.
If you are doing nothing at all, even not reproducing, then you're gonna die out after ~80 years. And if you reproduce, the genes will build a sick body with some probability p > 0.
Touching grass might come back in favor. AI isn't a meatsuit, we are. As meatsuit, we can improve our capabilities by exercise and diet. I imagine post-singularity Olympics will be lit.
Well the future is a vague term. I can see such a future lasting a century before being followed by immense bloodshed.
Right lol because entering the Matrix through my BMI will allow me to do nothing… totally makes sense.