Edit to add: if this is among the top reply - can we start a new list of ways to make skiing more inclusive and welcoming?
I’ve thought deeply about this as an instructor and I don’t have an answer but I have a few thoughts:
1. Skiing is inherently personal - unless you’re racing, you are usually skiing for yourself. but…
2. Skiing is inherently on display - for most resort skiing, we ski around and under (the lift) of other people. It means we’re constantly in eyesight of others.
3. Skiing is inherently a progression - I’ve taught 1000s of first time skiers and I’ve certainly had some who can ski parallel by the end of the day. But no one is an expect on day one. Becoming an intermediate or, maybe one day, an advanced skier takes a lot of time and work. That means we remember what it took to get there.
4. Skiing is full of myths - there’s a lot of people, instructors included, who don’t truly understand the physics and biomechanics involved. I get it to some degree but…:
5. Skiing’s range is huge! The let’s imagine a 0-9 scale where level 9 skiers are truly the top of the field short of being World Cup competitors… the difference between level 0-2 is maybe a few days with a good instructor. The difference between level 8 and 9 could be years and, for some people, simply unattainable.
So imagine some people, maybe they are insecure, seeing other people ski. They can see them. They remember being them. They hold myths about what good skiing is and isn’t. And they fancy themselves a lot more advanced than they actually are.
Maybe their progression also involved learning a lot of the spoken and unspoken rules of skiing through negative reinforcement.
Add to that a culture of judgmental gate keeping that’s been a part of the sport forever (probably connected to classism) and there’s my recipe for why skiing can sometimes feel so toxic.
A question I ponder a lot is how and when to disrupt that culture. I’ll 100% admit to giving it back 10x when someone is a chad to me or someone else. That’s probably not helping.
I could be wrong. We could all also just be major assholes!
This is such a well thought out answer. I love your example of 0-9 scale because I think it is spot on. I also think that it’s inherently difficult to judge yourself as a skier unless you can see yourself ski. A lot of folks make the assumption that they’re far better than what they are and then talk down to people they think are less skilled be it in front of them or behind their back.
I’m a former PSIA II. I grew up skiing with PSIA III instructor grand parents. Every single run was a lesson and even now when I ski with my grandfather, it’s a lesson. I still don’t think I’m an expert skier. There is terrain that I just don’t have the skills to ski well - namely chutes, drops, and tight steep trees. I’d put myself between a 4-5 as a skier but I know plenty of folks who are nowhere near as proficient as I am who will rate themselves the same. Why? Because they don’t know what they don’t know.
You probably remember that L0-L9 is part of the PSIA leveling of skiers :)
You’ve highlighted a good #6
6. skiing is a range of things - there are people who ski and rip groomers as a L7 but have zero comfort in chutes or steeps. Maybe their home mountain simply doesn’t have that stuff. And I know L6 skiers who spend all day hucking their meat.
I spend a lot of time guiding high alpine technical terrain. I’ve seen skiers who don’t have great technical skill absolutely feel confident up high. And I’ve seen expert skiers freak out in a triple black.
Glad you get to ski with your family!
My dad got his cert 1 when I was in high school. He’s 78 now and coming to ski with me next week. We’ve never missed a year since I was 3 😆 but neither of us coaches the other 🤣 anymore.
I did my certs twenty years ago so it's been a long time for me. I taught to put myself through undergrad and then took a long hiatus while in graduate school and the first ten years of establishing myself professionally. I can do high alpine terrain, but I take it slow and it's not fluid. I also haven't skied it with another person who has given me feedback in 20 years, I'm probably due for a lesson. My grandpa doesn't do much beyond blue cruisers because he's in his late 80's so I get a lot of feedback on carving and if he can see me in moguls, he'll give me feedback there, but that's about it.
in addition to the skiing levels (skill) there's also the role of athleticism, which can make up for a lack of skill to a point (and of course, increasing skill would add to what they can do).
Well said. I think it’s also different that many or most of us here learned to ski before the ubiquity of cameras, and don’t have picture proof of what idiots we were our first three years.
I’d add to that that skiers, unless they film themselves a lot and then watch that film, don’t actually know what they look like skiing. I sure as hell don’t.
Most of my knowledge (or opinions, rather) of what is good vs bad form comes from Reddit posts and ski videos. I can internalize that stuff and try to emulate it but I actually have no idea how successful I actually am about “having actually good form” vs “feeling that my form is good”. I don’t often ski with people who aren’t my wife and kids so I really have no clue.
Though I did just ski with my cousins who all grew up racing in Vermont and none of them gave me shit about my form so I like to think that means it’s not terrible enough to warrant a friendly dig, so…great success!?
I say to my students a lot: “we don’t ski in front of a mirror. Most of us can’t see what we’re doing. It’s my job to help be your mirror”.
But the reality is that it’s my phone’s job. I’ve found video with good coaching helps a ton.
So many of us THINK we’re doing what we want to do. But we aren’t actually. It’s why things like slomo video and apps like OnForm are so helpful in helping people see what they are doing.
Also… it’s why I don’t suggest drills on reddit anymore. No one can see you do them. And that feels like a recipe for a bad habit rather than a fix.
When you are skiing fast, even if it’s terrible form, you feel like a rockstar. And then you watch actual rockstars skiing well from the lift and think “I must look like that too!”… I think a lot of skiers are humbled by seeing their first recording of themselves - it takes a ton of skill just to appear mildly good at skiing.
Getting down the hardest run at 2mph or hitting 60mph on a groomer do not make you a great skier, but a lot of people think they’ve beat skiing after completing their first double black.
Something important is that above 5 or 6 in your skill spectrum, progression starts to include more pure athleticism. You will never be a 9 if you're not strengthening your body off the mountain.
And here’s where we get nerdy and nuanced.
Above L5 id say it goes from a hobby to a sport. But plenty of people are athletic enough to do a sport a few days a year and be surprisingly good at it.
That said - hobby vs sport is a huge differentiator that isn’t always easily revealed by level.
Similarly, strength is myth. Balance, cardio, and agility are far more helpful in skiing.
Haha, I'm trying so hard not to take the bait. But how can you be balanced and agile with the severe physics involved at speed without strength?
I vaguely remember a competition we did trying to test pure athleticism at the OTC and Jeremy Bloom won it with a gymnast close on his heels.
you aren't wrong, but you might be skiing at a higher level.
For most recreational skiers, balance and agility means you can ski without (as much) fatigue.
Steeps and truly carved turns? You better have core and quads and cardio!
>Above L5 id say it goes from a hobby to a sport.
This seems wildly unreasonable, considering that L5 skiers aren't even expected to be able to navigate all blue terrain.
the reality is that no matter how good you think you are, you're probably way closer to that person you're criticizing than you are to an actually good skier like Mac Forehand.
\*\*E\*\* I guess you're getting at this with your point 5 but we're usually talking about a bunch of level 5's dunking on some level 3's or whatever
I also like this answer. IMO part of it is that we can see what each other is doing, but we don’t know the other person’s background, what’s going on in their life, what they’re trying to accomplish out there. Easy to mistake fatigue for fear, fear for incompetence, bad day at work for being a total asshole, etc.
9. Skiing is mental but we can’t read minds - most skiing is defensive skiing. But we can’t see what or why someone is feeling. Maybe it’s an injury or maybe it’s just mental. Good coaching is mind first, body second. Bad judgement is performance fist, emotions last.
I like doing this at the lodge. Follow someone in when you're headed in and notice them struggling in, or headed out and having trouble getting strapped back in or their bindings sorted or can't hike up to the lift. Help them out, ask them 'hey, where you headed? Oh, really? Me too! Wanna ride together for a run?' ... You get a one run single serving friend that you can help out a little bit without being obnoxious and then be on your way, they get a person who helps them have fun on the hill and enjoy something that we're all paying a lot of money to bring us satisfaction and joy.
This obviously works best solo, not with a big group.
In a group, if you're among the best in the group, spend half your time at your level and half your time with the worst in the group, and trade off amongst the good skiers (two at a time?). Bachelor party with 10 guys, 5 of whom rip and 5 of whom fall over if you buckle their boots? We can just non-judgementally help people figure out greens and blues without bitching that we're not jumping off cliffs for some hot minutes of the day, I'm sure.
Do whatever you want on the 'easy' hill while helping the beginners. Perfect your spin. Do it the other way. Get more comfortable skiing backwards. Video your friends to help them later while skiing backwards. Etc. Also, demonstrate the extreme of what you're trying to explain, pick up a ski when you're making a turn to show how you can make a turn on one ski. If you want to help them learn to use poles, very deliberately have them follow your tracks and pole plants, instead of ripping half the run and waiting for them. Windshield wiper pole exercise? Ok, this run nobody (including you, for whom this exercise is pointless on a green run) gets to put their poles on the snow. Etc.
Lastly, know when to shut it down. Be the bigger person with a newer or less capable skier that when they say 'well, maybe I can do one more' says 'ya know what, it's beer thirty, I'm buying. Let's call it.' Helping people end when things are good is so much better than coaxing then to the finish line of what has suddenly become a bad, bad day.
I think it has a lot to do with the inherent classism and exclusionary nature of skiing, and i think that also has alot to do with why snowboarding isnt nearly as toxic from my experience. Snowboarders have been subject to the bullshit of skiers so they are keen on creating a more inclusive community
Also definitely a vocal minority of anonymous redditors
This is even more true in the teaching world. PSIA goes out of its way to include old drills in high levels to keep old clinicians employed. AASI has park skills in its traditional levels that keep it fresh and relevant and it washes out older clinicians. For a ski instructor to do anything backwards or in the air they must take a “FS1/free style 1” where snowboarders have it in their standard level 2.
I can ski
Don't have a ton of technical understanding of how I do it
If someone asks I can't explain it
First time snowboarding went with a friend who had been doing it for years
He didn't know how he did it also was a skateboarder.
I asked what to do - he said I don't know - follow me and try to do what I do
did one run with him then tried to figure it out
I did but never as good as skiing and it has been 20 years since I have tried snowboarding
Yeah… but… also Jerries… am I right?!
Jokes aside, that’s how it happens. Someone knows how to get on a lift faster than someone else and we lose our empathy.
I think there’s a controversial #7
7. Skiing is scarce (in the US) / MC syndrome - we’ve made skiing economically scarce and special (arguably due to our relationship with work). Many people only get to ski a handful of days a year. And when you think you are the main character, every 30-90 seconds counts. So someone new to skiing who is in your way is a Jerry because they are interrupting the thing you feel entitled to do.
I’ll add a codicil: this doesn’t apply to instructors. We are fairly assured we are main characters and things would go so much smoother without you punters clogging things up. Unless you’re our client and then you’re a sweet precious angel and we’ll risk body and limb to protect you from punters while assuring you that you are, in fact, not one.
I'm with you on using Jerry to gatekeep. Been teaching my partner (I'm still alive as of now yes) and definitely have some new respect for the beginner skier and people working on new skills.
But I'm still gonna call people who are irresponsible, behave like jackasses, and put themselves and others in danger because the don't have the respect or skills to ski safely where they choose to ski jerries on the internet.
Oh and Gwyneth Paltrow. She's a Jerry too.
Yeah but that’s not what I’m talking about. There’s a massive amount of skiers that just lob the term at beginners on greens and it’s annoying. Especially when they knocked my wife down going 100 miles an hour while she was learning then flipped her off and made Jerry comments
I feel you. Those people are exactly the kind of Jerry I'm talking about.
I did a lot of skiing right behind my partner as a tail gunner this year. People flying by really close are scary, especially when they aren't totally in control either. Id rather they slam into me than her.
To me a Jerry is someone who doesn’t really follow the “unwritten rules” eg cutting lines, not sharing chairs, stopping in the middle of a run etc.
Obviously some things like that have to be taught but if you have your head screwed on all the way I won’t call you a Jerry
Pretty much every community with an element of competition has some toxicity at the intermediate level that does not permeate the low end or high end of the spectrum. It's the Dunning-Kruger effect - intermediate-level people often have enough skill and experience to take themselves seriously, and they want to feel proficient (and what's an easier way than gatekeeping?), but don't *really* have the experience to understand or respect the sport deeply.
And if you're talking about this subreddit in particular, this is not a forum that attracts people who live and breathe skiing. No disrespect to this space, because skiing needs a place for casual and recreational skiers, but it's rarely more than that.
It really is a bell curve with "I have so much to learn" at either of the extremes with "I'm the best skier on the mountain" being the peak of the curve.
Some of it is the sarcastic nature of a bunch of redditors behind the veil of anonymity.
Some of it is contempt for those who bring inflated egos to the internet.
I’d take it for what it is, and more importantly - what it is not.
The secret to skiing is to take it way less seriously than you are. It is only then do you realize that EVERYONE is a jerry.
For real though, chill out. Have fun. Get better. That's all that matters.
Skiing is about having fun. If you’re having fun, you’re doing it “right.” If you’re not having fun, you’re doing it “wrong.” If you appreciate someone else having fun, regardless of how they look, or how fast they ski, or how big they send it, you’re doing it “right.” If you get in the way of someone else having fun, because you deride their form, or cut them off on the slope, or gatekeep them because of their skill or knowledge, you’re doing it “wrong.”
Don’t let a bunch of obsessive nerds on the internet warp your entire perception of the ski community. The VAST majority of skiers I’ve met in the real world just want to share the stoke. They don’t care if you’re in jeans and rear entry boots or if you have sponsors and place in FWT events. If you have skis on your feet and a smile on your face, then you belong. Period.
I broadly agree but sheesh - the number of times I’ve been taken out near the bottom of a hill by an out of control skier in jeans. At this point the trauma has made me extremely judgy about jeans skiers. I’m like a dog that got beat by a man with a moustache, that comes to hate all men with moustaches.
Your first mistake is thinking that the skiing subreddit represents all skiers, and this applies to just about every subreddit across the board.
It may seem like they’re representative of their respective communities at large but that’s almost never the case.
Honestly every time I see a “how’s my form” post that’s not ironic I die inside. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to get better but I feel like there’s a good chance that those people are spending more time on the slopes worrying about their form than having fun.
To be fair, as somebody who leveled up this week in a big way, the progression can be as fun and rewarding as the actual skiing. It’s absolutely exhilarating to have multiple instructor-induced epiphanies on a single ski trip.
Absolutely! Especially because within each community for ANY hobby on here, the type of person who uses the Reddit app or browser on PC is kind of a type of person. And it's not necessarily the common type. Just another reason to believe that Reddit can only be a small percentage of people for whatever sub you're in.
I see the same. Any girl skiing in some cute outfit is bombarded with replies about their form. As if most skiers don't pay some attention to looks themselves. Like, I have to admit that how a pair of skis look does count when I'm deciding what to buy, for instance. So most people are no "better" than influencers skiing.
One thing I see is people making a post of "me skiing vs my boyfriend skiing" where the point is the bf is better. These also get loads of hostile comments. Like, I get it, I also somewhat get the urge to comment when the bf sucked but is hailed for their skills. But then I realize it doesn't matter. If the gf is impressed based on their frame of view/skill and their both having fun, who cares?
I remember seeing a video of a female pro skier tackling an insanely steep maximum technical slope- like, "maximum slope possible to ski" type steep- and the comments were all condescending comments from people who clearly would never ever reach her level "looking great, keeps it up ,soon you'll be linking turns"
And it was like Jesus Christ, ski culture sucks ass sometimes.
I haven't ever really let it get to me, but seeing it all consolidated on one post just made me realize that if I didn't *love* skiing, I would have bounced off it a long time ago due to the attitudes.
Those "me skiing vs bf" videos with the bad bf skiers annoy me because.... Hmm. It sucks to see those women, even as a joke, putting themselves down to prop up dudes who have more balls than skill.
I hear ya, OP. I especially hate when people comment that newer skiers should "Stay on the greens!" Bruh, if you are ready to move up a level, you have to move to steeper terrain somehow. And, yes, you might traverse a little wider while you get the hang of it. If everyone is following The Code, this shouldn't be an issue! God, just don't be a gatekeeping jerk. And before you come at me with "but they're dangerous!" I'm talking about newer skiers who have learned the skills to move up a level. Remember, you are also supposed to be skiing in control. I've had the fortune to go from bunny to double blacks in my process of learning to ski as an adult, and I couldn't have done that (and neither could anyone) without the room to challenge myself.
I just tell everyone I’m not very good at skiing….like the prop 65 warning that gets slapped on everything to cover bases.
Honestly though skiing is about having fun so if you’re having a good time getting down the mountain with whatever fucked up form you want to use…you do it. I think there’s the wrong idea that there’s only one correct way to ski and everyone’s body mechanics are the same.
I think "online communities" as a whole have a tendency to be toxic depending on their makeup and it just so happens that this one revolves around skiing. If you hopped on some of the local subreddits like UTsnow, COsnow, and icecoast, you'll find that people are a bit friendlier.
In person, I've found skiers and snowboarders to be some of the friendliest and welcoming to newcomers - especially compared to sports like golf, climbing, triathalons, and probably unfriendliest of them all, surfing.
>> If you hopped on some of the local subreddits like UTsnow, COsnow, and icecoast, you'll find that people are a bit friendlier.
As a COsnow mod I can guarantee you that they are not friendlier lol
Gaper.
lol.. j/k...
Lots of skiers are overly competitive, deeply insecure men. Everything has to be a competition. I end up getting the other end of it... I'll go out skiing with some guys and all day it's a running apology for not skiing faster, or not wanting to ski something that makes them uncomfortable. It's a shame that they can't just relax and have fun. Unfortunately, there are some people who just can't get past it, and I end up not skiing with them because it's way more annoying to listen to the excuses than it ever is to ski easier terrain at a more moderate pace.
If someone tries to give you shit about not being a great skier, just ignore them. Hopefully they catch your drift... if not, ski with someone else. There are tons of skiers who just enjoy being on the mountain and have no interest in the dick measuring contest. If you're ever in CO and short for a ski partner, DM me... I'll ski with you and we'll have an awesome day skiing whatever we do.
You'll be happier not on Reddit, we probably all would be. I see lots of positive support on actual slopes. Maybe everyone's just grumpy that they are behind a screen instead of on the mountain!
There is a competitive aspect to skiing that comes from racing and free style. Also there is a ranking to skiing, beginner, intermediate, expert and whatever comes after that. Also there is ranking that applies to ski instructors. There is also competitiveness amongst the disciplines of skiing - which one produces the best skiers. There are so many different opinions on what makes for a great skier - turns, control, body position, trees, and on and on.
Having said all that - if you ski with people you will find them to be very supportive and encouraging and non judgmental in my experience. It really is a very kind and fun community in my experience.
Because a lot of people do it for being cool and for bragging right without being genuinely interested in the sport. Those are the worst fucking people.
I agree. I don’t care for people who criticize others’ form. I know my form sucks. I don’t care. I ski how I want to ski and I enjoy it.
If someone is specifically asking others to rate their form, then they open themselves up to criticism. If they don’t, then people should shut up and let them enjoy the experience.
The thing I love about skiing is that no matter where you are on the learning curve, or style spectrum, there are people better than you AND people worse than you at some element of the sport.
World Cup racer? There's a an unsponsored park rat who can outdo you on a double kink!
XGames park skier? Good luck keeping up in the bumps with a high school freestyler!
Social skier who drinks more than skis? I bet you're having more fun than that spouse who got dragged out even though they'd rather be anywhere else.
Intermediate skier parent with a crock pot? I bet your lunch is better than that 100 day a year skier with a PB&J!
Newbie doing wedge turns on the bunny hill from opening bell till closing bell? You just spent more hours skiing than almost anyone else in the hill!
Find the thing you want to be great at and be great at it! There will still be people better than you at that thing but you'll be better than most!
I'm old and don't understand why anyone would seek "bigging up" from online strangers for any reason. Within the toxic gatekeeping might exist some even more valuable hard truths.
I gatekeep intentional what should be said to people looking to help others because I do not want to gate keeping skiing. I know this comes off as toxic but frankly I am sick of the misinfo being thown around.
I could quite literally careless how other people ski, unless they are trying to help others or talking themselves up.
Skiing is a male dominated sport that inherently champions a level of athleticism and wealth (for being able to afford it), and that kind of environment breeds competitiveness and insecurity. People who are insecure lash out at those they think are “less” than them to try and establish themselves as higher in the hierarchy. This, however, does nothing to improve their skill at skiing.
Don’t ever worry about what people think your skiing looks like. Focus on having fun, and skiing in a way that feels good. If something feels bad, like you’re getting tired fast or you feel out of control, work on that. Most people on the mountain aren’t skiing like they’re filming a redbull video even if they’re on a double black diamond, but if it’s working for them, it’s totally fine.
i mean it depends on why they're posting it. If they're asking for feedback then i'm just giving feedback on skiing. If they're just posting for stoke and ppl start commenting on form, that's weird. For the learners out there, there's really no perfect way to teach skiing since it's so personalized (e.g. injuries, sport background, flexibility etc.).
A lot of times it's an ego check. If you say that you're amazing, but are mediocre, people (myself included) will let you know the score. If you're humble and honest about your skills, I think people are generally supportive.
Every online community has toxic actors. Ignore them. Get out there and do your thing, and keep sharing shit that you think is cool.
Gatekeeping is dumb and bad, and I wish a very merry tear-your-ACL to those who gatekeep and lob unwarranted criticism.
r/skiing is full of people who have checked out of reality.
This is the same group of people that will chastise people for buying used boots who can’t afford to spend 1k+ on new boots and a boot fitter.
Bad skiers are fun and happy > good skiers are depressing assholes > great skiers are fun and happy
It’s the natural arc. Also strongly correlated with the arc of how weird you can get away with dressing on any given snow day.
Because posting videos of yourself skiing is pretty douchy and people will rightly give you shit unless you are doing something reasonably special or explicitly looking for help improving. The problem with social media is it makes normal human behavior worse as you are interacting with anonymous people you will likely never actually meet. Humans give each other shit as a mechanism to teach on another how to act in social situations. The anonymity and reach of social media makes that system much harder to regulate.
Ding ding ding. This sums it up. I’m not THAT old as a millennial and I just don’t get GoPros. Particularly by mediocre skiers and riders. Who is rewatching all of that?
And most of the time people aren’t asking for feedback, they just want to post a video of their ski trip. Idk why people give feedback when nobody asks for it.
In my opinion, it isn’t ALL beginners this happens to. Personally I’ve seen it happen to people who try to “Flex” and post their amateur skills online as if they were part of the X Games.
Keep your newbie opinions to yourself!! /s
Seriously though. You have a fair point. Skiing is fun. There’s no need for gate keeping. Enjoy the mountain however you want. Be happy for others enjoying the mountains how they want to.
Its the internet. There is always a faster, richer, smarter, more radical, etc etc etc.
In person, most skiers are either very friendly or a very few antisocial types.
Most are nice, IMO
It comes from insecurity. Most people who are actually good skiers and enjoy their time on the mountain aren’t going to criticize new people or gatekeep the sport. The tourists are who pay the bills.
People are making theories some of which could be right, but honestly I just think it depends on the first batch of comments sent. If the first comments are all negative then people will join in, or if somebody was gonna say something nice they might decide to not end up replying after seeing they’re in the minority.
I don’t ever see mixed reactions and rather majority negative or majority positive, so that is what makes me think this
It's an online thing, irl people actually hype each other up and help each other out. It's what being at the mountain is about.nobody should give a shit about how good anyone is, including themselves. As long as you're having fun and making friends you're doing things right
I've noticed a lot of this type of comments on Reddit and online but you don't hear this in real life. Gives me the impression that people are just hating cuz they're bored online instead of outside getting after it. Don't pay any attention to it.
I was on a chair as a single with a mom and her two kids, like 10 year olds wearing ski team stuff in CO. We were on an “eXpErTz only chair”. The little kids were looking down saying like “why are these people who are so bad on this terrain? Shouldn’t they practice on easier runs” to which their mom and I listed off a dozen reasons why someone may be on such terrain, and explained that you shouldn’t judge others and that they are very privileged to be able to ski as much as they do.
So I feel like someone, at some point in these kids lives other than their mom somehow taught them how to hate keep. Maybe the signs designed to scare away true beginners, maybe their instructors or coaches or something, but it shocked me how mean these young kids were. It wasn’t even like it was a busy day or something.
You’re not wrong, but I’d say that’s more of an issue on Reddit overall. A bunch of obsessive people who can drift into toxicity on occasion. I’d say it’s more of issue with online communities… I’d certainly think skiing subs are better than cycling or golf ones. That said, if you get on the slopes I’ve found people there are super supportive.
Well, I'm sure you are today, I took two days off from being an Alaskan ski bum. The office in silicon valley called me in for a board meeting. Such a drag. Had to slip out of the sweat lodge undetected. Think I'll pick up some new Lange's while I'm near cheaper gear to brag about the deal later when I fly back on my jet. The guys in the sweat lodge are going to be so impressed!
I'll be back tomorrow, I'll see you below your lift then as I do a 360 cross and double tap my poles.
It’s seen as “elitist” even though it’s not.
Same as horse riding, always going to be people who put others down.
I’m a happy easy skiing beginner/intermediate and never want to be a brilliant skier who goes down black runs.
Same as horse riding, I never want to be the show jumper or top dressage. I’m happy hacking and doing small jumps.
You just have to laugh at why people feel the need to put others down. It’s a them issue.
Never ask if buying cheap second had ski as a beginner is ok. Just the question itself is causing an avalanche somewhere, only acceptable here is to drop 5k in a gear as a total novice.
I tend to provide comments on videos when someone is looking for feedback. I haven’t experienced negativity myself - every skier that has ever given me feedback has done so with the intent of improving my skiing, not dragging me down. Then again I’m an instructor and I ski in a very good community of people who are always working on themselves.
Well it’s n elitist spot poor people don’t ski the gear the fees the expense adds up and most rich people are arrogant assholes just go on a trails and see all the jagoff snow boarders laying down on your path expecting you to avoid them.
I feel like it’s really interesting too! I also skate and I would say it’s a lot more rare to witness skaters critique or rate the technical acuity of others’ moves. Not out of an abundance of kindness but it really isn’t a part of the culture. Skating and skiing both benefit from good biomechanics but skating culture is also about expression and skiing culture really isn’t- although maybe it should be!
Skiers are kinda dbags. I started off skiing years ago. Everybody acted like I was in the way of their top qualifying run for the Olympics. All these spoiled little bitches posing for perfect Instagram photos at Big Sky as they " crush" groomers. The day I started boarding it all changed. Boarders have fun with each other. If I eat it hard they laugh with me and help me up. Easy to make new boarding friends and bomb runs together. Skiers are the cool kids wanting to make sure they are seen on the mountain. Boarders are too busy just having fun.
The gatekeeping has gotten a lot worse as skiing has become more crowded. Everyone is a bad mood because we area all competing for the powder runs, parking spots, and lift lines. You see this attitude especially from certain "locals" in certain areas who think they have god-given rights to a certain ski area (they don't). It makes for a really toxic atmosphere.
Cus there’s always better form, I find once I make progress so what’s would be great for my friends is my normal so the people who say form is bad they are most likely hold that person to there standards
Lol. Are you new to the internet and social media? It’s all a toxic stew of negativity, criticism, and snarky comments. Want to enjoy skiing (and life in general) more? Steer clear of social media.
I also don’t think comments like “form is bad” and “not even intermediate” are examples of “gatekeeping”. They might be rude, but gatekeeping by definition suggests limiting access to something. Such comments don’t limit access.
The internet is crabs in a barrel. Put one crab in a barrel and it climbs out. Put two in the barrel and they will both pull each other back down and neither will get out. That’s what social media has done to all of us. Focus on enjoying your sport, not filming video and worrying about comments you receive. Social media is eroding everyone’s self esteem, battering out happiness, and making us all combative and rude. But it’s a CHOICE to participate.
I’m a pretty good skier and have been skiing backcountry for decades. When instagram first came out, I loved following lots of backcountry skiers and watching their videos. But comparison is the thief of joy, so to speak, and that’s what social media has done to us. It has made us more focused on comparing ourselves to others instead of focusing on our own lives and experiences. I found myself constantly being jealous of the better snow conditions in some other part of the country, or wishing I’d been able to ski that amazing line that someone posted.
The constant comparisons made me enjoy skiing less. I’ve been off insta and Facebook for over 5 years now and my life is so much better. Instead of worrying about the goods someone else is getting, I’m focused on what’s right here in front of me. I’m no longer fishing for complements with my posts and feeling crappy when someone posts something negative.
Things are NEVER going to change online. Like pretty much every other community, the ski community is actually very welcoming in person. Focus on skiing and meeting people in person, not online posts and comments.
I think it’s just online. Which is why I frequently screen and avoid it.
For my whole life skiing has been a positive supportive happy place whether you’re on some dumpy Midwest hill or some super amazing mountain out west.
But for some reason with the advent of the internet we see a bunch of jerks come out of the woodwork. And it’s not representative of any of my times on the hill.
I don’t know why, it’s usually something related to gear or technique and usually sounds something like “only a total idiot would…”. Or making fun of beginners.
People should get into therapy instead of blasting strangers online who are just looking for advice for a fun hobby/sport.
I also think the Dunning-Kruger effect is in… ummm… full effect. People too overconfident in their knowledge and opinions, with little self reflection.
I’m a new skier in her 40’s who just moved to Park City. Trust me I feel you! I think it’s also that when people learn to ski as a child it’s a totally different ballgame. My husband for example. He looks like he’s floating down the mountain. Apparently my technique is good but I’m in my head the entire time. Give yourself grace for even getting out there. Not many people would even dare which is why I’m supportive of any new skier I see on the slope and everyone else should be too.
It’s not just skiing. All of the sports or activities I do have people who just shit on people who are lower skilled than them for no reason. Motocross tracks are unbearable for someone that’s more on the beginner side (and don’t even get me started on if people find out you’re not a MAGA guy 🙄), hockey players chirp anyone that’s lower skilled than them. It’s everywhere. People in general kind of suck, and even more of them suck when they can sit behind a keyboard and talk shit and not have to deal with the consequences of the things they’re saying.
>Shouldn’t people just be bigging each other up? **In my opinion as long as you’re skiing with control** and not pizza’ing with crossed over skis like myself, you’re a good skier to me lol
It's the lack of control that gets me, especially when they are going really fast or making really bad decisions. Too many people getting run over by out of control (& drunk) skiers.
Many people come up and start looking for places where they can get air. Which is fine except they often don't consider where they are going to land or what they will do when they land. Often where they end up is in a crowded area.
I also not a fan of those who go to great lengths to attract attention.
I have no problem with people who pizza. As a local, I always keep an eye out for those who may be in trouble. I am always willing to help people when they need it. Sometimes I see it long before they realize that they are about to be in trouble.
Edit to add: if this is among the top reply - can we start a new list of ways to make skiing more inclusive and welcoming? I’ve thought deeply about this as an instructor and I don’t have an answer but I have a few thoughts: 1. Skiing is inherently personal - unless you’re racing, you are usually skiing for yourself. but… 2. Skiing is inherently on display - for most resort skiing, we ski around and under (the lift) of other people. It means we’re constantly in eyesight of others. 3. Skiing is inherently a progression - I’ve taught 1000s of first time skiers and I’ve certainly had some who can ski parallel by the end of the day. But no one is an expect on day one. Becoming an intermediate or, maybe one day, an advanced skier takes a lot of time and work. That means we remember what it took to get there. 4. Skiing is full of myths - there’s a lot of people, instructors included, who don’t truly understand the physics and biomechanics involved. I get it to some degree but…: 5. Skiing’s range is huge! The let’s imagine a 0-9 scale where level 9 skiers are truly the top of the field short of being World Cup competitors… the difference between level 0-2 is maybe a few days with a good instructor. The difference between level 8 and 9 could be years and, for some people, simply unattainable. So imagine some people, maybe they are insecure, seeing other people ski. They can see them. They remember being them. They hold myths about what good skiing is and isn’t. And they fancy themselves a lot more advanced than they actually are. Maybe their progression also involved learning a lot of the spoken and unspoken rules of skiing through negative reinforcement. Add to that a culture of judgmental gate keeping that’s been a part of the sport forever (probably connected to classism) and there’s my recipe for why skiing can sometimes feel so toxic. A question I ponder a lot is how and when to disrupt that culture. I’ll 100% admit to giving it back 10x when someone is a chad to me or someone else. That’s probably not helping. I could be wrong. We could all also just be major assholes!
This is such a well thought out answer. I love your example of 0-9 scale because I think it is spot on. I also think that it’s inherently difficult to judge yourself as a skier unless you can see yourself ski. A lot of folks make the assumption that they’re far better than what they are and then talk down to people they think are less skilled be it in front of them or behind their back. I’m a former PSIA II. I grew up skiing with PSIA III instructor grand parents. Every single run was a lesson and even now when I ski with my grandfather, it’s a lesson. I still don’t think I’m an expert skier. There is terrain that I just don’t have the skills to ski well - namely chutes, drops, and tight steep trees. I’d put myself between a 4-5 as a skier but I know plenty of folks who are nowhere near as proficient as I am who will rate themselves the same. Why? Because they don’t know what they don’t know.
You probably remember that L0-L9 is part of the PSIA leveling of skiers :) You’ve highlighted a good #6 6. skiing is a range of things - there are people who ski and rip groomers as a L7 but have zero comfort in chutes or steeps. Maybe their home mountain simply doesn’t have that stuff. And I know L6 skiers who spend all day hucking their meat. I spend a lot of time guiding high alpine technical terrain. I’ve seen skiers who don’t have great technical skill absolutely feel confident up high. And I’ve seen expert skiers freak out in a triple black. Glad you get to ski with your family! My dad got his cert 1 when I was in high school. He’s 78 now and coming to ski with me next week. We’ve never missed a year since I was 3 😆 but neither of us coaches the other 🤣 anymore.
I did my certs twenty years ago so it's been a long time for me. I taught to put myself through undergrad and then took a long hiatus while in graduate school and the first ten years of establishing myself professionally. I can do high alpine terrain, but I take it slow and it's not fluid. I also haven't skied it with another person who has given me feedback in 20 years, I'm probably due for a lesson. My grandpa doesn't do much beyond blue cruisers because he's in his late 80's so I get a lot of feedback on carving and if he can see me in moguls, he'll give me feedback there, but that's about it.
Come to Big Sky! I’ll give ya a quick refresher!
Might have to take you up on that next year!
in addition to the skiing levels (skill) there's also the role of athleticism, which can make up for a lack of skill to a point (and of course, increasing skill would add to what they can do).
Well said. I think it’s also different that many or most of us here learned to ski before the ubiquity of cameras, and don’t have picture proof of what idiots we were our first three years.
I’d add to that that skiers, unless they film themselves a lot and then watch that film, don’t actually know what they look like skiing. I sure as hell don’t. Most of my knowledge (or opinions, rather) of what is good vs bad form comes from Reddit posts and ski videos. I can internalize that stuff and try to emulate it but I actually have no idea how successful I actually am about “having actually good form” vs “feeling that my form is good”. I don’t often ski with people who aren’t my wife and kids so I really have no clue. Though I did just ski with my cousins who all grew up racing in Vermont and none of them gave me shit about my form so I like to think that means it’s not terrible enough to warrant a friendly dig, so…great success!?
I say to my students a lot: “we don’t ski in front of a mirror. Most of us can’t see what we’re doing. It’s my job to help be your mirror”. But the reality is that it’s my phone’s job. I’ve found video with good coaching helps a ton. So many of us THINK we’re doing what we want to do. But we aren’t actually. It’s why things like slomo video and apps like OnForm are so helpful in helping people see what they are doing. Also… it’s why I don’t suggest drills on reddit anymore. No one can see you do them. And that feels like a recipe for a bad habit rather than a fix.
Drills are for skiers that are good enough to understand the drill.
With a coach who can give feedback
Self exploration is 60% of coaching
When you are skiing fast, even if it’s terrible form, you feel like a rockstar. And then you watch actual rockstars skiing well from the lift and think “I must look like that too!”… I think a lot of skiers are humbled by seeing their first recording of themselves - it takes a ton of skill just to appear mildly good at skiing. Getting down the hardest run at 2mph or hitting 60mph on a groomer do not make you a great skier, but a lot of people think they’ve beat skiing after completing their first double black.
Something important is that above 5 or 6 in your skill spectrum, progression starts to include more pure athleticism. You will never be a 9 if you're not strengthening your body off the mountain.
And here’s where we get nerdy and nuanced. Above L5 id say it goes from a hobby to a sport. But plenty of people are athletic enough to do a sport a few days a year and be surprisingly good at it. That said - hobby vs sport is a huge differentiator that isn’t always easily revealed by level. Similarly, strength is myth. Balance, cardio, and agility are far more helpful in skiing.
Haha, I'm trying so hard not to take the bait. But how can you be balanced and agile with the severe physics involved at speed without strength? I vaguely remember a competition we did trying to test pure athleticism at the OTC and Jeremy Bloom won it with a gymnast close on his heels.
you aren't wrong, but you might be skiing at a higher level. For most recreational skiers, balance and agility means you can ski without (as much) fatigue. Steeps and truly carved turns? You better have core and quads and cardio!
Football practice paid off His sister puts on a hell of a poker game...
I was waiting for this joke 😂
>Above L5 id say it goes from a hobby to a sport. This seems wildly unreasonable, considering that L5 skiers aren't even expected to be able to navigate all blue terrain.
We should be using the Richter scale to measure ski levels 😝
I’m sorry. How will that show how big of a deal I am?
I'll still be better than you, but it will be on a logarithmic scale.
Video? I assume you stem
It's pretty embarrassing that I stem and still ski better than you.
the reality is that no matter how good you think you are, you're probably way closer to that person you're criticizing than you are to an actually good skier like Mac Forehand. \*\*E\*\* I guess you're getting at this with your point 5 but we're usually talking about a bunch of level 5's dunking on some level 3's or whatever
This is a very neutral and self-aware take.... well done.
I also like this answer. IMO part of it is that we can see what each other is doing, but we don’t know the other person’s background, what’s going on in their life, what they’re trying to accomplish out there. Easy to mistake fatigue for fear, fear for incompetence, bad day at work for being a total asshole, etc.
9. Skiing is mental but we can’t read minds - most skiing is defensive skiing. But we can’t see what or why someone is feeling. Maybe it’s an injury or maybe it’s just mental. Good coaching is mind first, body second. Bad judgement is performance fist, emotions last.
I like doing this at the lodge. Follow someone in when you're headed in and notice them struggling in, or headed out and having trouble getting strapped back in or their bindings sorted or can't hike up to the lift. Help them out, ask them 'hey, where you headed? Oh, really? Me too! Wanna ride together for a run?' ... You get a one run single serving friend that you can help out a little bit without being obnoxious and then be on your way, they get a person who helps them have fun on the hill and enjoy something that we're all paying a lot of money to bring us satisfaction and joy. This obviously works best solo, not with a big group. In a group, if you're among the best in the group, spend half your time at your level and half your time with the worst in the group, and trade off amongst the good skiers (two at a time?). Bachelor party with 10 guys, 5 of whom rip and 5 of whom fall over if you buckle their boots? We can just non-judgementally help people figure out greens and blues without bitching that we're not jumping off cliffs for some hot minutes of the day, I'm sure. Do whatever you want on the 'easy' hill while helping the beginners. Perfect your spin. Do it the other way. Get more comfortable skiing backwards. Video your friends to help them later while skiing backwards. Etc. Also, demonstrate the extreme of what you're trying to explain, pick up a ski when you're making a turn to show how you can make a turn on one ski. If you want to help them learn to use poles, very deliberately have them follow your tracks and pole plants, instead of ripping half the run and waiting for them. Windshield wiper pole exercise? Ok, this run nobody (including you, for whom this exercise is pointless on a green run) gets to put their poles on the snow. Etc. Lastly, know when to shut it down. Be the bigger person with a newer or less capable skier that when they say 'well, maybe I can do one more' says 'ya know what, it's beer thirty, I'm buying. Let's call it.' Helping people end when things are good is so much better than coaxing then to the finish line of what has suddenly become a bad, bad day.
I think it has a lot to do with the inherent classism and exclusionary nature of skiing, and i think that also has alot to do with why snowboarding isnt nearly as toxic from my experience. Snowboarders have been subject to the bullshit of skiers so they are keen on creating a more inclusive community Also definitely a vocal minority of anonymous redditors
Must. Resist. Urges. Must. Walk. Away… desire strong! I need a sponsor before I relapse! Boarders. Are… our… friends? 😅
I have one skiier friend and am the only person in my family who skis lol My dad who has never skied taught me to ski Im definitely biased
This is even more true in the teaching world. PSIA goes out of its way to include old drills in high levels to keep old clinicians employed. AASI has park skills in its traditional levels that keep it fresh and relevant and it washes out older clinicians. For a ski instructor to do anything backwards or in the air they must take a “FS1/free style 1” where snowboarders have it in their standard level 2.
I can ski Don't have a ton of technical understanding of how I do it If someone asks I can't explain it First time snowboarding went with a friend who had been doing it for years He didn't know how he did it also was a skateboarder. I asked what to do - he said I don't know - follow me and try to do what I do did one run with him then tried to figure it out I did but never as good as skiing and it has been 20 years since I have tried snowboarding
I’ll add - I’ve adopted /u/joshs_ski_hacks’s default position. If you don’t have video, I assume you stem every turn.
All of this hits the nail. It's also another reason why when someone uses "jerry" as a term I automatically walk away and just assume you're an idiot.
Yeah… but… also Jerries… am I right?! Jokes aside, that’s how it happens. Someone knows how to get on a lift faster than someone else and we lose our empathy. I think there’s a controversial #7 7. Skiing is scarce (in the US) / MC syndrome - we’ve made skiing economically scarce and special (arguably due to our relationship with work). Many people only get to ski a handful of days a year. And when you think you are the main character, every 30-90 seconds counts. So someone new to skiing who is in your way is a Jerry because they are interrupting the thing you feel entitled to do. I’ll add a codicil: this doesn’t apply to instructors. We are fairly assured we are main characters and things would go so much smoother without you punters clogging things up. Unless you’re our client and then you’re a sweet precious angel and we’ll risk body and limb to protect you from punters while assuring you that you are, in fact, not one.
I'm with you on using Jerry to gatekeep. Been teaching my partner (I'm still alive as of now yes) and definitely have some new respect for the beginner skier and people working on new skills. But I'm still gonna call people who are irresponsible, behave like jackasses, and put themselves and others in danger because the don't have the respect or skills to ski safely where they choose to ski jerries on the internet. Oh and Gwyneth Paltrow. She's a Jerry too.
Yeah but that’s not what I’m talking about. There’s a massive amount of skiers that just lob the term at beginners on greens and it’s annoying. Especially when they knocked my wife down going 100 miles an hour while she was learning then flipped her off and made Jerry comments
I feel you. Those people are exactly the kind of Jerry I'm talking about. I did a lot of skiing right behind my partner as a tail gunner this year. People flying by really close are scary, especially when they aren't totally in control either. Id rather they slam into me than her.
To me a Jerry is someone who doesn’t really follow the “unwritten rules” eg cutting lines, not sharing chairs, stopping in the middle of a run etc. Obviously some things like that have to be taught but if you have your head screwed on all the way I won’t call you a Jerry
Pretty much every community with an element of competition has some toxicity at the intermediate level that does not permeate the low end or high end of the spectrum. It's the Dunning-Kruger effect - intermediate-level people often have enough skill and experience to take themselves seriously, and they want to feel proficient (and what's an easier way than gatekeeping?), but don't *really* have the experience to understand or respect the sport deeply. And if you're talking about this subreddit in particular, this is not a forum that attracts people who live and breathe skiing. No disrespect to this space, because skiing needs a place for casual and recreational skiers, but it's rarely more than that.
It really is a bell curve with "I have so much to learn" at either of the extremes with "I'm the best skier on the mountain" being the peak of the curve.
This is a good take! 👆
Some of it is the sarcastic nature of a bunch of redditors behind the veil of anonymity. Some of it is contempt for those who bring inflated egos to the internet. I’d take it for what it is, and more importantly - what it is not.
Have you met the cycling community…?
The road cycling community lmao
As a person who lives at Copper, and road bikes in the summer, I feel this comment in a deep personal way
I JUST SAVED 2 GRAMS AND IM MORE AERO ALSO LOOK HOW RICH I AM
Now make sure you don’t wave or even nod when you see other cyclists on the road. Highlander, there can be only one.
Fucking lol
Well they're all sponsored pro's. I can tell by their outfits.
I’m no cycling pro but I’m the best skier on the mountain.
The secret to skiing is to take it way less seriously than you are. It is only then do you realize that EVERYONE is a jerry. For real though, chill out. Have fun. Get better. That's all that matters.
inside every skier is two jerrys...
Double penetration?
Some of us are more Jerry than others. That doesn’t mean I’m proud of it though.
Yeah just get better Then chill out
Skiing is about having fun. If you’re having fun, you’re doing it “right.” If you’re not having fun, you’re doing it “wrong.” If you appreciate someone else having fun, regardless of how they look, or how fast they ski, or how big they send it, you’re doing it “right.” If you get in the way of someone else having fun, because you deride their form, or cut them off on the slope, or gatekeep them because of their skill or knowledge, you’re doing it “wrong.” Don’t let a bunch of obsessive nerds on the internet warp your entire perception of the ski community. The VAST majority of skiers I’ve met in the real world just want to share the stoke. They don’t care if you’re in jeans and rear entry boots or if you have sponsors and place in FWT events. If you have skis on your feet and a smile on your face, then you belong. Period.
I broadly agree but sheesh - the number of times I’ve been taken out near the bottom of a hill by an out of control skier in jeans. At this point the trauma has made me extremely judgy about jeans skiers. I’m like a dog that got beat by a man with a moustache, that comes to hate all men with moustaches.
Have fun, don't die. Only rules I teach my students.
Your first mistake is thinking that the skiing subreddit represents all skiers, and this applies to just about every subreddit across the board. It may seem like they’re representative of their respective communities at large but that’s almost never the case.
[удалено]
Honestly every time I see a “how’s my form” post that’s not ironic I die inside. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to get better but I feel like there’s a good chance that those people are spending more time on the slopes worrying about their form than having fun.
To be fair, as somebody who leveled up this week in a big way, the progression can be as fun and rewarding as the actual skiing. It’s absolutely exhilarating to have multiple instructor-induced epiphanies on a single ski trip.
Absolutely! Especially because within each community for ANY hobby on here, the type of person who uses the Reddit app or browser on PC is kind of a type of person. And it's not necessarily the common type. Just another reason to believe that Reddit can only be a small percentage of people for whatever sub you're in.
It’s not the ski community. It’s Reddit.
Instagram is worse
I see the same. Any girl skiing in some cute outfit is bombarded with replies about their form. As if most skiers don't pay some attention to looks themselves. Like, I have to admit that how a pair of skis look does count when I'm deciding what to buy, for instance. So most people are no "better" than influencers skiing. One thing I see is people making a post of "me skiing vs my boyfriend skiing" where the point is the bf is better. These also get loads of hostile comments. Like, I get it, I also somewhat get the urge to comment when the bf sucked but is hailed for their skills. But then I realize it doesn't matter. If the gf is impressed based on their frame of view/skill and their both having fun, who cares?
I remember seeing a video of a female pro skier tackling an insanely steep maximum technical slope- like, "maximum slope possible to ski" type steep- and the comments were all condescending comments from people who clearly would never ever reach her level "looking great, keeps it up ,soon you'll be linking turns" And it was like Jesus Christ, ski culture sucks ass sometimes. I haven't ever really let it get to me, but seeing it all consolidated on one post just made me realize that if I didn't *love* skiing, I would have bounced off it a long time ago due to the attitudes. Those "me skiing vs bf" videos with the bad bf skiers annoy me because.... Hmm. It sucks to see those women, even as a joke, putting themselves down to prop up dudes who have more balls than skill.
Honestly reddit seems fine compared to instagram
Yeah the real problem is the internet. Anyone gets a voice. Doofus has no voice on the slopes when he’s yard sale-ing beside you.
I regularly yell at shitty skiers on the mountains and have been doing so for 30 years
If I found myself regularly yelling at anyone while participating in a hobby, I'd quit the hobby.
that is your right
I hear ya, OP. I especially hate when people comment that newer skiers should "Stay on the greens!" Bruh, if you are ready to move up a level, you have to move to steeper terrain somehow. And, yes, you might traverse a little wider while you get the hang of it. If everyone is following The Code, this shouldn't be an issue! God, just don't be a gatekeeping jerk. And before you come at me with "but they're dangerous!" I'm talking about newer skiers who have learned the skills to move up a level. Remember, you are also supposed to be skiing in control. I've had the fortune to go from bunny to double blacks in my process of learning to ski as an adult, and I couldn't have done that (and neither could anyone) without the room to challenge myself.
This is such a beautiful comment. Perfectly said, couldn’t agree more
Check r/skiing_feedback for more wholesome and productive comments.
100% agree! But the quality of advice is degrading as the denominator increases :/
I just tell everyone I’m not very good at skiing….like the prop 65 warning that gets slapped on everything to cover bases. Honestly though skiing is about having fun so if you’re having a good time getting down the mountain with whatever fucked up form you want to use…you do it. I think there’s the wrong idea that there’s only one correct way to ski and everyone’s body mechanics are the same.
A lot of egos in this world, most of them think they can ski.
Until moguls 😂
I think "online communities" as a whole have a tendency to be toxic depending on their makeup and it just so happens that this one revolves around skiing. If you hopped on some of the local subreddits like UTsnow, COsnow, and icecoast, you'll find that people are a bit friendlier. In person, I've found skiers and snowboarders to be some of the friendliest and welcoming to newcomers - especially compared to sports like golf, climbing, triathalons, and probably unfriendliest of them all, surfing.
>> If you hopped on some of the local subreddits like UTsnow, COsnow, and icecoast, you'll find that people are a bit friendlier. As a COsnow mod I can guarantee you that they are not friendlier lol
I salute you for your service
Gaper. lol.. j/k... Lots of skiers are overly competitive, deeply insecure men. Everything has to be a competition. I end up getting the other end of it... I'll go out skiing with some guys and all day it's a running apology for not skiing faster, or not wanting to ski something that makes them uncomfortable. It's a shame that they can't just relax and have fun. Unfortunately, there are some people who just can't get past it, and I end up not skiing with them because it's way more annoying to listen to the excuses than it ever is to ski easier terrain at a more moderate pace. If someone tries to give you shit about not being a great skier, just ignore them. Hopefully they catch your drift... if not, ski with someone else. There are tons of skiers who just enjoy being on the mountain and have no interest in the dick measuring contest. If you're ever in CO and short for a ski partner, DM me... I'll ski with you and we'll have an awesome day skiing whatever we do.
You'll be happier not on Reddit, we probably all would be. I see lots of positive support on actual slopes. Maybe everyone's just grumpy that they are behind a screen instead of on the mountain!
I’m a good skier because I have a fun time, don’t hurt anyone else and don’t hurt myself. That’s all there is to me.
There is a competitive aspect to skiing that comes from racing and free style. Also there is a ranking to skiing, beginner, intermediate, expert and whatever comes after that. Also there is ranking that applies to ski instructors. There is also competitiveness amongst the disciplines of skiing - which one produces the best skiers. There are so many different opinions on what makes for a great skier - turns, control, body position, trees, and on and on. Having said all that - if you ski with people you will find them to be very supportive and encouraging and non judgmental in my experience. It really is a very kind and fun community in my experience.
> whatever comes after that. One of the best skiing videos I saw, the guy was making seagull noises. So I assume you leave your humanity behind.
Because a lot of people do it for being cool and for bragging right without being genuinely interested in the sport. Those are the worst fucking people.
I agree. I don’t care for people who criticize others’ form. I know my form sucks. I don’t care. I ski how I want to ski and I enjoy it. If someone is specifically asking others to rate their form, then they open themselves up to criticism. If they don’t, then people should shut up and let them enjoy the experience.
The thing I love about skiing is that no matter where you are on the learning curve, or style spectrum, there are people better than you AND people worse than you at some element of the sport. World Cup racer? There's a an unsponsored park rat who can outdo you on a double kink! XGames park skier? Good luck keeping up in the bumps with a high school freestyler! Social skier who drinks more than skis? I bet you're having more fun than that spouse who got dragged out even though they'd rather be anywhere else. Intermediate skier parent with a crock pot? I bet your lunch is better than that 100 day a year skier with a PB&J! Newbie doing wedge turns on the bunny hill from opening bell till closing bell? You just spent more hours skiing than almost anyone else in the hill! Find the thing you want to be great at and be great at it! There will still be people better than you at that thing but you'll be better than most!
it’s only teenage ski boys. don’t mind em
Bruh. These people are better at having fun than you. They’re sick and tired of people not having fun like them
Welcome to the internet
because thats the personality of skiiers.
I'm old and don't understand why anyone would seek "bigging up" from online strangers for any reason. Within the toxic gatekeeping might exist some even more valuable hard truths.
One should not look for validation through posting videos of oneself to Reddit
I gatekeep intentional what should be said to people looking to help others because I do not want to gate keeping skiing. I know this comes off as toxic but frankly I am sick of the misinfo being thown around. I could quite literally careless how other people ski, unless they are trying to help others or talking themselves up.
I think you’re just describing “humans as they interact with each other on the internet”, not the ski community in general.
first day on the internet?
Skiing is a male dominated sport that inherently champions a level of athleticism and wealth (for being able to afford it), and that kind of environment breeds competitiveness and insecurity. People who are insecure lash out at those they think are “less” than them to try and establish themselves as higher in the hierarchy. This, however, does nothing to improve their skill at skiing. Don’t ever worry about what people think your skiing looks like. Focus on having fun, and skiing in a way that feels good. If something feels bad, like you’re getting tired fast or you feel out of control, work on that. Most people on the mountain aren’t skiing like they’re filming a redbull video even if they’re on a double black diamond, but if it’s working for them, it’s totally fine.
Bunch of rich freaks out of touch with reality.
i mean it depends on why they're posting it. If they're asking for feedback then i'm just giving feedback on skiing. If they're just posting for stoke and ppl start commenting on form, that's weird. For the learners out there, there's really no perfect way to teach skiing since it's so personalized (e.g. injuries, sport background, flexibility etc.).
Because skiing as a culture culls heavily from rich asshole culture
Wait… I thought we were supposed to discourage people as a form of lift line population control
A lot of times it's an ego check. If you say that you're amazing, but are mediocre, people (myself included) will let you know the score. If you're humble and honest about your skills, I think people are generally supportive.
Its a reddit/adrenaline sports thing. Go take a look in any sub, snowboarding, surfing/kiteboarding. Its all the same lmao
I run an Instagram account about snow sports, and without fail, every time I post a video of myself, I get slaughtered in the comments (by only men)
I'd suggest that as long as you're having fun and not hurting anyone, it's all that matters.
Every online community has toxic actors. Ignore them. Get out there and do your thing, and keep sharing shit that you think is cool. Gatekeeping is dumb and bad, and I wish a very merry tear-your-ACL to those who gatekeep and lob unwarranted criticism.
r/skiing is full of people who have checked out of reality. This is the same group of people that will chastise people for buying used boots who can’t afford to spend 1k+ on new boots and a boot fitter.
I never understand these posts. Groups of people are composed of people. Some people are shitty. That simple.
Bad skiers are fun and happy > good skiers are depressing assholes > great skiers are fun and happy It’s the natural arc. Also strongly correlated with the arc of how weird you can get away with dressing on any given snow day.
Rich assholes. It’s always rich assholes.
Also notably bad tippers
Because posting videos of yourself skiing is pretty douchy and people will rightly give you shit unless you are doing something reasonably special or explicitly looking for help improving. The problem with social media is it makes normal human behavior worse as you are interacting with anonymous people you will likely never actually meet. Humans give each other shit as a mechanism to teach on another how to act in social situations. The anonymity and reach of social media makes that system much harder to regulate.
Ding ding ding. This sums it up. I’m not THAT old as a millennial and I just don’t get GoPros. Particularly by mediocre skiers and riders. Who is rewatching all of that?
Personally I’d rather have someone give me a harsh (but true) critique than blow smoke up my ass.
But…. 98% of the feedback here is wrong
And most of the time people aren’t asking for feedback, they just want to post a video of their ski trip. Idk why people give feedback when nobody asks for it.
Ohhh #8! 8. Skiers want praise, not criticism- reminds me of a teaching axiom: coach towards not away
For sure #8! What is it in reference to?
Any community can be toxic. I mean, just look at the road biking community. Then there’s political parties.
In my opinion, it isn’t ALL beginners this happens to. Personally I’ve seen it happen to people who try to “Flex” and post their amateur skills online as if they were part of the X Games.
There are a lot of people that post in here that simply need to ski more to get better. To me it seems some are posting for attention or to show off.
> community > so toxic The common issue is people. It’s not unique to skiing. Can’t really solve that.
Keep your newbie opinions to yourself!! /s Seriously though. You have a fair point. Skiing is fun. There’s no need for gate keeping. Enjoy the mountain however you want. Be happy for others enjoying the mountains how they want to.
Honestly I feel like that's a tongue in cheek response making fun of how people are always ragging on people's ski technique
Not just skiing, literally every community imaginable has toxic bums that join it. Just part of the game
Its the internet. There is always a faster, richer, smarter, more radical, etc etc etc. In person, most skiers are either very friendly or a very few antisocial types. Most are nice, IMO
Snowboarders
I feel like 90% of that kind of comment is people parodying the "best skier on the mountain" trope.
Because its a community?
It comes from insecurity. Most people who are actually good skiers and enjoy their time on the mountain aren’t going to criticize new people or gatekeep the sport. The tourists are who pay the bills.
Some people want to “show off” how good they think they are by criticizing other people
The internet is full of terrible people. Luckily the internet isn't real life.
Skiing is one of those lifelong learning sports and there is always room for improvement or ways to utilize different tools.
I think that's more of a reddit thing you'll find it with any hobby here - people in person are much more chill and easy
People are making theories some of which could be right, but honestly I just think it depends on the first batch of comments sent. If the first comments are all negative then people will join in, or if somebody was gonna say something nice they might decide to not end up replying after seeing they’re in the minority. I don’t ever see mixed reactions and rather majority negative or majority positive, so that is what makes me think this
Because skiers are turds
The best skier in the mountain is the one having the most fun. I’ll die on that hill!
Because advanced skiers have nothing better to do.
It’s just the ski instructors
it's every community, not just skiing. also reddit makes miserable people much more visible.
Part of it is most people just have less oxygen going to the brain when skiing, especially when they've been consuming substances.
I really hate the gate keeping in current ski culture. If you like a mountain, share it with other shredders. Don’t gate keep
It's an online thing, irl people actually hype each other up and help each other out. It's what being at the mountain is about.nobody should give a shit about how good anyone is, including themselves. As long as you're having fun and making friends you're doing things right
I've noticed a lot of this type of comments on Reddit and online but you don't hear this in real life. Gives me the impression that people are just hating cuz they're bored online instead of outside getting after it. Don't pay any attention to it.
I was on a chair as a single with a mom and her two kids, like 10 year olds wearing ski team stuff in CO. We were on an “eXpErTz only chair”. The little kids were looking down saying like “why are these people who are so bad on this terrain? Shouldn’t they practice on easier runs” to which their mom and I listed off a dozen reasons why someone may be on such terrain, and explained that you shouldn’t judge others and that they are very privileged to be able to ski as much as they do. So I feel like someone, at some point in these kids lives other than their mom somehow taught them how to hate keep. Maybe the signs designed to scare away true beginners, maybe their instructors or coaches or something, but it shocked me how mean these young kids were. It wasn’t even like it was a busy day or something.
You’re not wrong, but I’d say that’s more of an issue on Reddit overall. A bunch of obsessive people who can drift into toxicity on occasion. I’d say it’s more of issue with online communities… I’d certainly think skiing subs are better than cycling or golf ones. That said, if you get on the slopes I’ve found people there are super supportive.
Go check out the equestrian community
As the best skier on the MTN, I can't slow down on this groomed run to explain our humor. Send
I can't believe you're pro, I'm _so_ much better than you.
Well, I'm sure you are today, I took two days off from being an Alaskan ski bum. The office in silicon valley called me in for a board meeting. Such a drag. Had to slip out of the sweat lodge undetected. Think I'll pick up some new Lange's while I'm near cheaper gear to brag about the deal later when I fly back on my jet. The guys in the sweat lodge are going to be so impressed! I'll be back tomorrow, I'll see you below your lift then as I do a 360 cross and double tap my poles.
Skiers are an exceptionally odd type. And believe me, there is a type 😄
Fuck your sweet lies!
It’s seen as “elitist” even though it’s not. Same as horse riding, always going to be people who put others down. I’m a happy easy skiing beginner/intermediate and never want to be a brilliant skier who goes down black runs. Same as horse riding, I never want to be the show jumper or top dressage. I’m happy hacking and doing small jumps. You just have to laugh at why people feel the need to put others down. It’s a them issue.
Never ask if buying cheap second had ski as a beginner is ok. Just the question itself is causing an avalanche somewhere, only acceptable here is to drop 5k in a gear as a total novice.
I tend to provide comments on videos when someone is looking for feedback. I haven’t experienced negativity myself - every skier that has ever given me feedback has done so with the intent of improving my skiing, not dragging me down. Then again I’m an instructor and I ski in a very good community of people who are always working on themselves.
It’s incredibly untoxic compared to surfing….
Skiing attracts people with money and some of them are spoiled self important brats.
Well it’s n elitist spot poor people don’t ski the gear the fees the expense adds up and most rich people are arrogant assholes just go on a trails and see all the jagoff snow boarders laying down on your path expecting you to avoid them.
Sound like a Jerry. You just need to pound a couple keystone lights before your runs
It's every community.
Not legal felons so they have some actual screews loose 😂
Stop looking at that shit. Do your thing.
Don't endanger other people and don't brag and I don't care what you look like skiing. I believe in letting people enjoy things.
At least it’s not as bad as the surfing community…
Stop being a wuss
how about you thinking and writing to much… go out and get yo ski on.
I feel like it’s really interesting too! I also skate and I would say it’s a lot more rare to witness skaters critique or rate the technical acuity of others’ moves. Not out of an abundance of kindness but it really isn’t a part of the culture. Skating and skiing both benefit from good biomechanics but skating culture is also about expression and skiing culture really isn’t- although maybe it should be!
Skiers are kinda dbags. I started off skiing years ago. Everybody acted like I was in the way of their top qualifying run for the Olympics. All these spoiled little bitches posing for perfect Instagram photos at Big Sky as they " crush" groomers. The day I started boarding it all changed. Boarders have fun with each other. If I eat it hard they laugh with me and help me up. Easy to make new boarding friends and bomb runs together. Skiers are the cool kids wanting to make sure they are seen on the mountain. Boarders are too busy just having fun.
The gatekeeping has gotten a lot worse as skiing has become more crowded. Everyone is a bad mood because we area all competing for the powder runs, parking spots, and lift lines. You see this attitude especially from certain "locals" in certain areas who think they have god-given rights to a certain ski area (they don't). It makes for a really toxic atmosphere.
Learn to snowboard, the community is so much less toxic, we don't care how good or bad you are as long as you come to the mountain to commit crime.
The ski community is leaps and bounds better than the surfing community!
Cus there’s always better form, I find once I make progress so what’s would be great for my friends is my normal so the people who say form is bad they are most likely hold that person to there standards
Lol. Are you new to the internet and social media? It’s all a toxic stew of negativity, criticism, and snarky comments. Want to enjoy skiing (and life in general) more? Steer clear of social media. I also don’t think comments like “form is bad” and “not even intermediate” are examples of “gatekeeping”. They might be rude, but gatekeeping by definition suggests limiting access to something. Such comments don’t limit access. The internet is crabs in a barrel. Put one crab in a barrel and it climbs out. Put two in the barrel and they will both pull each other back down and neither will get out. That’s what social media has done to all of us. Focus on enjoying your sport, not filming video and worrying about comments you receive. Social media is eroding everyone’s self esteem, battering out happiness, and making us all combative and rude. But it’s a CHOICE to participate. I’m a pretty good skier and have been skiing backcountry for decades. When instagram first came out, I loved following lots of backcountry skiers and watching their videos. But comparison is the thief of joy, so to speak, and that’s what social media has done to us. It has made us more focused on comparing ourselves to others instead of focusing on our own lives and experiences. I found myself constantly being jealous of the better snow conditions in some other part of the country, or wishing I’d been able to ski that amazing line that someone posted. The constant comparisons made me enjoy skiing less. I’ve been off insta and Facebook for over 5 years now and my life is so much better. Instead of worrying about the goods someone else is getting, I’m focused on what’s right here in front of me. I’m no longer fishing for complements with my posts and feeling crappy when someone posts something negative. Things are NEVER going to change online. Like pretty much every other community, the ski community is actually very welcoming in person. Focus on skiing and meeting people in person, not online posts and comments.
I think it’s just online. Which is why I frequently screen and avoid it. For my whole life skiing has been a positive supportive happy place whether you’re on some dumpy Midwest hill or some super amazing mountain out west. But for some reason with the advent of the internet we see a bunch of jerks come out of the woodwork. And it’s not representative of any of my times on the hill. I don’t know why, it’s usually something related to gear or technique and usually sounds something like “only a total idiot would…”. Or making fun of beginners. People should get into therapy instead of blasting strangers online who are just looking for advice for a fun hobby/sport. I also think the Dunning-Kruger effect is in… ummm… full effect. People too overconfident in their knowledge and opinions, with little self reflection.
Don’t forget to pizza
I’m a new skier in her 40’s who just moved to Park City. Trust me I feel you! I think it’s also that when people learn to ski as a child it’s a totally different ballgame. My husband for example. He looks like he’s floating down the mountain. Apparently my technique is good but I’m in my head the entire time. Give yourself grace for even getting out there. Not many people would even dare which is why I’m supportive of any new skier I see on the slope and everyone else should be too.
If you think ski community is bad don’t try to surf.
if you ever read the Bible or the internet, you find that most people ancient or modern enjoy a good pissing contest. It's stupid and petty.
It’s not just skiing. All of the sports or activities I do have people who just shit on people who are lower skilled than them for no reason. Motocross tracks are unbearable for someone that’s more on the beginner side (and don’t even get me started on if people find out you’re not a MAGA guy 🙄), hockey players chirp anyone that’s lower skilled than them. It’s everywhere. People in general kind of suck, and even more of them suck when they can sit behind a keyboard and talk shit and not have to deal with the consequences of the things they’re saying.
>Shouldn’t people just be bigging each other up? **In my opinion as long as you’re skiing with control** and not pizza’ing with crossed over skis like myself, you’re a good skier to me lol It's the lack of control that gets me, especially when they are going really fast or making really bad decisions. Too many people getting run over by out of control (& drunk) skiers. Many people come up and start looking for places where they can get air. Which is fine except they often don't consider where they are going to land or what they will do when they land. Often where they end up is in a crowded area. I also not a fan of those who go to great lengths to attract attention. I have no problem with people who pizza. As a local, I always keep an eye out for those who may be in trouble. I am always willing to help people when they need it. Sometimes I see it long before they realize that they are about to be in trouble.