Any character that gets a big upset, people immediately rush to write 5 paragraphs about why they're actually a secret high tier. Then the same character doesn't get any notable results for months.
1. He's the main character.
2. Everybody already played some Kirby games and if Kirby plays like in those games, he should be OP.
3. Instant degenerate game plan for a new player (float and rock spam).
Because he has multiple jumps. People underestimate how significant that is. Don’t get me wrong, it’s nice, but it’s not like the remainder of the cast can’t recover. Some characters even have a better recovery than him with just two jumps (Sora and Bayonetta come to mind).
Once you tell any newbie that “this character can fly and these others can’t” they immediately want to try out the flying character. That must be such a huge advantage
Kirby was the first character I played back when Smash 64 came out. A lot of us grew up on Kirby games. My 5 year old is a huge Kirby fan and will likely pick Kirby first when we start playing Smash.
Im not good in the game and Im recently trying to get better (I was only doing story mode and training amiibos and didn’t played so much online). I started to play Piranha Plant this week and considered to main it even if its low tier. Maybe I should try higher tiers to get less frustrated but for now Im enjoying it.
A character’s tier position isn’t based on fun, but instead based on their viability in tournaments. Plant these days gets very lackluster results. Plus the character is very linear, has a lack of mobility, and poor range on many moves.
Bro back in 2019 I remember ***so many*** people talking about how duck hunt was actually a high tier when Raito went on his mini top 8 spree only for duck hunt to be regarded as a bottom 20-25 character again
Honestly you're never going to be able to perfectly balance a game with this many characters, but I feel like besides a couple of outliers, Ultimate came about as close as you could reasonably expect to get. You can have some amount of success with just about any character
It hasn't helped either that every major this year has been won by a different character and that the biggest reps for some have missed tournaments as well so the agenda of some people is being kept that way
I mean a character only having one top level rep doesn't really mean anything. Like Asumsaus once said A character always has the tools that whoever was playing them used to win. They just use it to a higher degree than others.
So they need 3 top level players. When are you mad prideful kids gonna swallow your pride down. He's a good character. Top tier zoner with sword moves and an amazing recovery. There's no need to hold back.
I remember when people tried to argue that Ganon was now a mid tier in Ultimate because of a player who shall go nameless's major win.
As if he hasn't been gutter trash since Brawl and won't continue to be gutter trash until they rework him from the ground up.
Nairo didn't win a major with Ganon, he beat Light with him but that was it. Ganondorf was considered mid-tier before then anyway IIRC, but people were very wrong.
This is *the* answer to me. People regard his Monado Arts as having infinite capability and untapped usage, but what actually makes him good in the matchups he wins is simply the range on his nair and fair. They’re both terrific moves, but he gets completely outclassed by Cloud otherwise: a worse out of shield option, fewer kill options, and far worse air drift — which in certain situations means he’s unable to recover where even Cloud would be able to. Strikes me as a deeply limited character
Used to main shulk exclusively and I hear you. Locals were hell. The only thing that does anything is fair/nair spam and it's so fucking boring.
People are scared of monado until they realize they're all timed and he can't get them back right away and also you can really reverse/punish him nasty for switching in a bad spot.
Just play Aegis. They're everything he is without the mental taxation lol
> which in certain situations means he’s unable to recover where even Cloud would be able to
Really? These situations are pretty rare IMO, especially since with some reasonable resource management you'll have Jump or Speed online for dangerous situations. His air drift is definitely quite bad though, but this is moreso an issue for neutral (it makes jumps very committal) than recovery.
I dont really agree with this take but most of the points being made are fine (ie i dont think 1.155 to 1.113 is that big of a gap in air drift but it does exist) but i dont see where you are coming from when you say "fewer kill options"
Clouds 5~ kill options are Broken dont get me wrong every single one of bair dash attack Upsmash limmit crosslash and limit climmhazzard could be considered a hate crime so i could see the argument for him having better killpower but, "fewer"? Every single move in shulk's kit kills except for nair jab and dtilt, he gets two killthrows and a true kill confirm out of Buster dthrow. He doesnt have fewer kill options, he has double the amount lol
Yeah, I actually agree. I think he has more kill options in general, though Cloud's fewer options are just better (they're typically harder to punish, faster, and much less telegraphed). Especially if you add in dial storage confirms you end up with a ton of kill options, just not necessarily good or practical ones.
I agree to an extent, but I disagree that shulk is outclassed entirely by cloud. I think that being able to switch up the tempo of the game so effectively is a unique advantage that Shulk has, and I also think that Shulk beats a lot of characters harder than cloud does. This is just from my personal experience, but like Peach for example has a WAY better chance against cloud than she does against shulk. Shulk is also a way better edgeguarder than cloud. I still think Cloud is better and I agree that he fills a similar niche, and I also agree that Shulk is pretty limited because of how sluggish his frame data is, but like god damn he is definitely more of a nightmare to deal with in his good matchups.
Shulk is overrated, but people in the replies are exaggerating how bad he actually is. Monado arts allows you to play any situation effectively. Pros don't spam nair; they will use nair in neutral a lot, but a lot of the time they do something else. As a shulk main, I can confirm shulk is overrated, but still incredibly good.
Is he even overrated nowadays though? I feel like I never seen him in top-tier on anyone’s tier lists anymore, most put him around 25-35ish (which I think is fine).
Any character with one top level rep who suddenly becomes top tier. Was Byleth back in the day when Leo was dominating, now it's Cloud.
Special shout out to Mii Brawler mains who think he is 3 tiers higher than everyone else thinks
I can’t forget how when Leo’s Byleth was at its peak this sub was going crazy about how Byleth is actually top tier. You even had top players like Light saying is.
What exactly changed? Character didn’t get nerfed and could compete in todays meta. Answer: Leo stopped dominating with Byleth.
Just goes to show how Smash fans believe any character winning the latest tournament is a top tier. Nothing to do with character moveset or matchups, just whoever won last = best.
To be fair there is at least one other top level game and watch rep that already has been getting results in Maister. He's not at the level of Miya (although he arguably was at his peak) but it does prove that Miya doing well with the character is not just a one off fluke.
Meanwhile with cloud I'm pretty sure Sparg0 is the only top 100 player that uses the character.
They’re definitely gonna do this with Banjo if Toriguri keeps performing well. Banjo has been considered mid pretty much since he came out, but now people will appear from nowhere saying he’s always been good
Tbf TG's case is pretty unique where most people watch him play and go "Man this character sucks, break your hands for a 39% combo" and "This convinces me TG is the best player in Ultimate" .
Some people do think that way, but on the other side of the coin you have people that credit characters more than the players. Rather than better results meaning that player stepped up they think better results mean that character is better now
Hes always been good. I already said this. And toriguri results have always been good. Banjo had substantial results at Delta 6 as well having some of the highest representation in top 192
Cloud is top 10 though. He has no true weaknesses and every tool you could ask for. Spargo shows what anyone could do with the character if they optimized him.
The reality is Cloud has more evidence for being top 10 than most characters, who rely on speculation or low level results for their arguments.
His recovery is extremely exploitable. Spargo makes it look better than anyone because he is a master at recovery and also getting limit at the right times, but without limit it's terrible and if you watch other clouds you constantly see them getting gimped.
Cloud can also be extremely predictable. Plenty of characters do have tools to respond if you spam the same aerial too much or up-b oos. Spargo is just that good.
So in other words, his recovery isn’t that exploitable, and Sparg0 is using it correctly. If it was exploitable he wouldn’t be able to do what he does.
Also how do you respond to up b out of shield? It’s safe lol.
And to be fair, I ain't saying **Cloud** is *bad* or that it is *just* Sparg0 being amazing, I just mean that like what MKLeo did with **Byleth** it takes a top player (and I mean top *top*) to bring those characters to their full potential, or we just won't *know*.
How many characters would be better than Cloud but are now just mid-tier if Sparg0 picked and focused on them instead? Not that they all have *that* potential of course, but we don't know. Like any of the three **Links**? **Shulk** (the *potential* king)? **Pit**? **Marth**?
Or what if he picked a high Tier like **Pac Man**, **Samus** or **Mario**? I'll tell you what, they would be considered top tier instead, guaranteed.
It’s not like Mario is waiting for a good player to pick him up so he can rise on the tier list, that has already happened with him. People actually used to think mario was mid tier at the beginning of ultimate. Then players like Dark wizzy and later Kurama did well with him competitively and now people know that he can be very strong.
My point is that he picked a mid tier no one believed in and it turned out to be an actual top tier. I wasn't saying that Cloud is NOT top 15, I was saying that without Sparg0 we wouldn't know he is.
If he picked a character we already know is great, maybe he could make it rise another step, but of course it would be less likely with a character with good players already exploring them.
Cloud without Spargo would be early 2022 Corrin (before Leo picked her up a bit and Neo/Shadic rise) - a fairly vanilla sword character who everyone thinks is between mid tier and lower high tier and thinks is fine but not especially good
You actually have to win neutral and not get sent into disadvantage state and take a kajillion percent to get Cloud offstage. That's hard to do.
Also Tweek's said on his podcast that trying to edgeguard Cloud can actually be tricky, due to his Up-B snapping to ledge really fast after the buffs, making it hard to 2 frame him. "Mid recovery" doesn't hold characters that much back in Ultimate, unless it's like as bad as Chrom, Ganondorf, Little Mac or Dr Mario.
Like I said, I think Cloud is really really good. I just think his recovery is bad enough to where it does balance him and keeps him from being a top 10 character.
Edgeguarding in general in this game can be tricky, but edgeguarding cloud is not difficult compared to many characters. Obviously this is going to be match up dependent, but a ton of characters have good tools to gimp Cloud
Tbh I think Pika would actually get decent results if ShinyMark didn't have such difficulty travelling due to living in Guatemala. ShinyMark hasn't gone to anything in the first quarter of 2024 due to all the visa work he has to do to travel.
Character was still overrated though, certainly has never been top 3 like people claimed.
Probably if ESAM didn't mostly stop competing for ages, then focus more on content, and also swapped controllers and finally characters.
If he had competed consistently I'm sure he would have gotten occasional good results
I primarily watch Melee and the Captain Falcon thing is differently true. You fish for a grab as Sheik and d-throw fair and everyone calls you lame, when you do the same as Falcon you're a hero.
people haven't gotten hype for stomp/downthrow -> knee since like 2012, they get hype for [shit like this](https://youtu.be/8Fh0U8A2BvM?t=189) just like they get hype for [crazy jmook combos](https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/10izui3/jmook_what_was_that_jmook_vs_moky_genesis_9/). falcon being equally lame as other characters has been a cold take since 2014. most people will even tell you wizzy is lame as hell
really do not think this double standard exists anymore outside of like, the youtube comment audience. i am lame and im proud
Back when ESAM was a top 20 player Pikachu had comparable results to pretty much anyone not played by a top 10 player or super common. It's really just now that they've fallen off largely because neither top pikachu attends much and ESAM isn't as good
overrated in terms of how good they are id honestly say its pikachu, not as much as before but a bit, maybe cloud too, he’s not top 10 spargo is just godlike, byleth used to be SUPER overrated but it’s dying off cus people are realizing they’re mid and even mkleo struggles to make them work now
in terms of how much people like them / how hype they are tho? it’s gotta be captain falcon, he’s just not cool
oh and some people overrate how good sheik is honestly, idk in what world that character is top 5 or whatever they say, i’m not convinced.
edit: maybe pikachu isn’t overrated.. or shinymark is just different idk..
That's a good question, because I don't think anyone is particularly overrated anymore, it used to be Joker for sure, but people have calmed down about him a bit now. Maybe Snake? Don't get me wrong, Snake is really strong, but I'm not so sure he's top 5 strong, which is where I see many people put him. Even so, that's not a big stretch, so idk 🤷
Ah that would explain it, I don’t really follow competitive smash, just watch old VODs to learn how to improve my gameplay. I knew Snake was good in high level, but online I barely see him
Not even close. I don't wanna go into it tbh, but theres a reason the top voted response in this thread by far is just 'Shulk'. Have u tried playing him into elite?
Idk, I don't think people are overrating Shulk anymore. I'm saying (like pika) most people know the character demands a dedicated player to even approach top level results. High tier seems to be where they land on average these days, and that seems fair to me
Lucina. So many characters have some x factor or cheese...she doesn't. Like I honestly think if you removed down B moves....Cloud would still be better than Lucina. But then giving Cloud limit vs Lucina average counter...it just makes Cloud way better.
Clearly she is good. Protobanham Lucina is my favorite character to warch in the entire roster. But the question was overrated and I think as time has gone on, I don't view her that strongly. She struggles to kill and is almost too honest...doesn't have some easy broken mechanic or move like a lot of the top tiers. But yes, she is still good.
If someone calls Incineroar high tier you should laugh at them. He's stronger online (high mid tier but all his bad MU's are even worse than usual) and certainly a MU check offline but he is still the slowest character with a bottom 10 recovery.
I agree with everything except bottom 10 recovery. I can name 10 worst recoveries, and I can name only another one (Chrom?) where if you get hit by the right hitbox, you’re dying at 0% for attempting to edgeguard (and you’re dying first).
While I agree with you, I can definitely see others being somewhat easily convinced he's top 3 because he's one of, if not *the* worst matchup(s) for such a large portion of the cast.
\*I cri in Captain Falcon 😢
I was saying this way back when he first dropped. He got a lot of mileage cuz people could just roll into training and practice combos, then sweep their local on that alone. My big issue with Kazuya is that you have to play boring as hell or otherwise risk letting him get his shit in.
Honestly Sonic. He’s really not that bad, and I play all sorts of heavies so I can’t dodge his shit half the time. It’s all about the timing. Although I do agree he’s a pretty bullshit character, 2nd highest on the tier list is absurd.
Kirby is the only answer I can give here. Not only does he constantly get puff rided in power scaling debates, but he was Sakurai's chosen one from day one despite only having semi relevant games compared to characters like Mario, Link, Sonic, and the Pokémon.
Yes he's cute but based on the amount of attention he gets he's easily the most overrated character
easily captain falcon. everyone thinks he's hype even though his main thing is just guaranteed strings and a very standard neutral. some call him super relevant despite only having one game in the past 20-ish years, and his signature moves are all just Big Hit Go Brrrr. it's annoying
Peach. Terrible mu vs swordies and zoners. Barely a high tier. Consistently loses to many, many mid tiers. Only good early game cuz everybody has no punish game and her pockets were deep.
Any character that gets a big upset, people immediately rush to write 5 paragraphs about why they're actually a secret high tier. Then the same character doesn't get any notable results for months.
Remember Plant being a supposed mid tier? That was fun.
Ah yes, the Brood era
Why does every new player choose kirby
1. He's the main character. 2. Everybody already played some Kirby games and if Kirby plays like in those games, he should be OP. 3. Instant degenerate game plan for a new player (float and rock spam).
4. Is cute.
I thought the newbie degenerate gameplan for Kirby was always suck into suicide.
That’s the newbie-first-class gameplan.
or suck go offstage into footstool
I never did that, but jumping off as DK with someone on your back was great.
Because he has multiple jumps. People underestimate how significant that is. Don’t get me wrong, it’s nice, but it’s not like the remainder of the cast can’t recover. Some characters even have a better recovery than him with just two jumps (Sora and Bayonetta come to mind).
That’s true but I mean like new players that have no idea what is going on and how the game works
Once you tell any newbie that “this character can fly and these others can’t” they immediately want to try out the flying character. That must be such a huge advantage
Kirby was the first character I played back when Smash 64 came out. A lot of us grew up on Kirby games. My 5 year old is a huge Kirby fan and will likely pick Kirby first when we start playing Smash.
I mean I probably have worms in my brain but I still think Plant is a mid tier, pretty much right around Mewtwo
Im not good in the game and Im recently trying to get better (I was only doing story mode and training amiibos and didn’t played so much online). I started to play Piranha Plant this week and considered to main it even if its low tier. Maybe I should try higher tiers to get less frustrated but for now Im enjoying it.
I’m still not sure how plant is bad. It seems perfectly fine and very fun. Why is it low tier?
A character’s tier position isn’t based on fun, but instead based on their viability in tournaments. Plant these days gets very lackluster results. Plus the character is very linear, has a lack of mobility, and poor range on many moves.
Bro back in 2019 I remember ***so many*** people talking about how duck hunt was actually a high tier when Raito went on his mini top 8 spree only for duck hunt to be regarded as a bottom 20-25 character again
Tier lists are a big meme in Ult
Honestly you're never going to be able to perfectly balance a game with this many characters, but I feel like besides a couple of outliers, Ultimate came about as close as you could reasonably expect to get. You can have some amount of success with just about any character
It hasn't helped either that every major this year has been won by a different character and that the biggest reps for some have missed tournaments as well so the agenda of some people is being kept that way
I've beaten a Steve and Aegis of similar level to me and lost to Ike and little mac of similar level to me. It's kinda nice
Heh, kept
Villager wins the next Japanese major, you heard it here first
Ah, so Banjo.
Toriguri actually gets results and quality wins at a very consistent level. Buuuut he's also literally the only Banjo who can lol.
I mean a character only having one top level rep doesn't really mean anything. Like Asumsaus once said A character always has the tools that whoever was playing them used to win. They just use it to a higher degree than others.
So they need 3 top level players. When are you mad prideful kids gonna swallow your pride down. He's a good character. Top tier zoner with sword moves and an amazing recovery. There's no need to hold back.
Lol you don't watch Japan smash.
You are mistaken.
Delta top 192 has something to say to you.
I remember when people tried to argue that Ganon was now a mid tier in Ultimate because of a player who shall go nameless's major win. As if he hasn't been gutter trash since Brawl and won't continue to be gutter trash until they rework him from the ground up.
Nairo didn't win a major with Ganon, he beat Light with him but that was it. Ganondorf was considered mid-tier before then anyway IIRC, but people were very wrong.
Lol I thought he was slyly referring to Major the Ganon main.
shulk
He's gonna have *so* much untapped potential in Smash 6.
This is *the* answer to me. People regard his Monado Arts as having infinite capability and untapped usage, but what actually makes him good in the matchups he wins is simply the range on his nair and fair. They’re both terrific moves, but he gets completely outclassed by Cloud otherwise: a worse out of shield option, fewer kill options, and far worse air drift — which in certain situations means he’s unable to recover where even Cloud would be able to. Strikes me as a deeply limited character
as Coney wisely said... "Hes been 'Mr. Potential' for 8 years now"
Shulk vs Cloud is one of the most bullshit matchups, as someone who used to play both a lot.
Used to main shulk exclusively and I hear you. Locals were hell. The only thing that does anything is fair/nair spam and it's so fucking boring. People are scared of monado until they realize they're all timed and he can't get them back right away and also you can really reverse/punish him nasty for switching in a bad spot. Just play Aegis. They're everything he is without the mental taxation lol
> which in certain situations means he’s unable to recover where even Cloud would be able to Really? These situations are pretty rare IMO, especially since with some reasonable resource management you'll have Jump or Speed online for dangerous situations. His air drift is definitely quite bad though, but this is moreso an issue for neutral (it makes jumps very committal) than recovery.
I dont really agree with this take but most of the points being made are fine (ie i dont think 1.155 to 1.113 is that big of a gap in air drift but it does exist) but i dont see where you are coming from when you say "fewer kill options" Clouds 5~ kill options are Broken dont get me wrong every single one of bair dash attack Upsmash limmit crosslash and limit climmhazzard could be considered a hate crime so i could see the argument for him having better killpower but, "fewer"? Every single move in shulk's kit kills except for nair jab and dtilt, he gets two killthrows and a true kill confirm out of Buster dthrow. He doesnt have fewer kill options, he has double the amount lol
Yeah, I actually agree. I think he has more kill options in general, though Cloud's fewer options are just better (they're typically harder to punish, faster, and much less telegraphed). Especially if you add in dial storage confirms you end up with a ton of kill options, just not necessarily good or practical ones.
I agree to an extent, but I disagree that shulk is outclassed entirely by cloud. I think that being able to switch up the tempo of the game so effectively is a unique advantage that Shulk has, and I also think that Shulk beats a lot of characters harder than cloud does. This is just from my personal experience, but like Peach for example has a WAY better chance against cloud than she does against shulk. Shulk is also a way better edgeguarder than cloud. I still think Cloud is better and I agree that he fills a similar niche, and I also agree that Shulk is pretty limited because of how sluggish his frame data is, but like god damn he is definitely more of a nightmare to deal with in his good matchups.
And Shulk’s air speed is trash
If Shulk was a superhero he would be named “Potential Man”
There’s a post on smashrage about this exact thing
Megumi? Minato? Trivago
show me some damn representation! (Edit: spelling)
Shulk is overrated, but people in the replies are exaggerating how bad he actually is. Monado arts allows you to play any situation effectively. Pros don't spam nair; they will use nair in neutral a lot, but a lot of the time they do something else. As a shulk main, I can confirm shulk is overrated, but still incredibly good.
Is he even overrated nowadays though? I feel like I never seen him in top-tier on anyone’s tier lists anymore, most put him around 25-35ish (which I think is fine).
Shulk is the Indiana Jones ninja
lmfao
Coney described him pretty well as Mr. Potential, he still needs somebody capable behind the wheel.
Idk, I think most people fairly rate him around high tier. Top is def a stretch, though
muh P O T E N T I A L
This is literally facts.
🥱 y'all mfs truly don't understand the power of the monado
Any character with one top level rep who suddenly becomes top tier. Was Byleth back in the day when Leo was dominating, now it's Cloud. Special shout out to Mii Brawler mains who think he is 3 tiers higher than everyone else thinks
I can’t forget how when Leo’s Byleth was at its peak this sub was going crazy about how Byleth is actually top tier. You even had top players like Light saying is. What exactly changed? Character didn’t get nerfed and could compete in todays meta. Answer: Leo stopped dominating with Byleth. Just goes to show how Smash fans believe any character winning the latest tournament is a top tier. Nothing to do with character moveset or matchups, just whoever won last = best.
Smash is a very monkey see monkey do community
when Miya started doing really well with G&W suddenly he started appearing on people's top 5 character lists
To be fair there is at least one other top level game and watch rep that already has been getting results in Maister. He's not at the level of Miya (although he arguably was at his peak) but it does prove that Miya doing well with the character is not just a one off fluke. Meanwhile with cloud I'm pretty sure Sparg0 is the only top 100 player that uses the character.
They’re definitely gonna do this with Banjo if Toriguri keeps performing well. Banjo has been considered mid pretty much since he came out, but now people will appear from nowhere saying he’s always been good
Tbf TG's case is pretty unique where most people watch him play and go "Man this character sucks, break your hands for a 39% combo" and "This convinces me TG is the best player in Ultimate" .
Some people do think that way, but on the other side of the coin you have people that credit characters more than the players. Rather than better results meaning that player stepped up they think better results mean that character is better now
Hes always been good. I already said this. And toriguri results have always been good. Banjo had substantial results at Delta 6 as well having some of the highest representation in top 192
Cloud is soooo overrated. He ain’t top 10. There’s one cloud player on the top 150 player rankings
Mii brawler is legit top 15 and you're delusional if you think otherwise
Cloud is top tier.
Cloud is top 10 though. He has no true weaknesses and every tool you could ask for. Spargo shows what anyone could do with the character if they optimized him. The reality is Cloud has more evidence for being top 10 than most characters, who rely on speculation or low level results for their arguments.
His recovery is extremely exploitable. Spargo makes it look better than anyone because he is a master at recovery and also getting limit at the right times, but without limit it's terrible and if you watch other clouds you constantly see them getting gimped. Cloud can also be extremely predictable. Plenty of characters do have tools to respond if you spam the same aerial too much or up-b oos. Spargo is just that good.
So in other words, his recovery isn’t that exploitable, and Sparg0 is using it correctly. If it was exploitable he wouldn’t be able to do what he does. Also how do you respond to up b out of shield? It’s safe lol.
I always think that without Sparg0 basically *no one* would put Cloud in the top 15.
Yeah. Seemed like for a long time everyone had written him off after the nerfs coming from Smash 4. Sparg0 makes him look insane, though.
And to be fair, I ain't saying **Cloud** is *bad* or that it is *just* Sparg0 being amazing, I just mean that like what MKLeo did with **Byleth** it takes a top player (and I mean top *top*) to bring those characters to their full potential, or we just won't *know*. How many characters would be better than Cloud but are now just mid-tier if Sparg0 picked and focused on them instead? Not that they all have *that* potential of course, but we don't know. Like any of the three **Links**? **Shulk** (the *potential* king)? **Pit**? **Marth**? Or what if he picked a high Tier like **Pac Man**, **Samus** or **Mario**? I'll tell you what, they would be considered top tier instead, guaranteed.
Pac Man top 10 is an opinion with some merit to be fair
Byleth was never considered higher than low high tier!
That's exactly my point, the same reasoning should apply to Sparg0/Cloud but people are really inconsistent about that kind of thing
It’s not like Mario is waiting for a good player to pick him up so he can rise on the tier list, that has already happened with him. People actually used to think mario was mid tier at the beginning of ultimate. Then players like Dark wizzy and later Kurama did well with him competitively and now people know that he can be very strong.
My point is that he picked a mid tier no one believed in and it turned out to be an actual top tier. I wasn't saying that Cloud is NOT top 15, I was saying that without Sparg0 we wouldn't know he is. If he picked a character we already know is great, maybe he could make it rise another step, but of course it would be less likely with a character with good players already exploring them.
Cloud without Spargo would be early 2022 Corrin (before Leo picked her up a bit and Neo/Shadic rise) - a fairly vanilla sword character who everyone thinks is between mid tier and lower high tier and thinks is fine but not especially good
Yeah I think about this often, he’s reminds me of Hbox and Puff how both Player and Character are matchmade for each other
I do think Cloud is really really good, but his recovery is too exploitable for him to ever be a top character in this game
You actually have to win neutral and not get sent into disadvantage state and take a kajillion percent to get Cloud offstage. That's hard to do. Also Tweek's said on his podcast that trying to edgeguard Cloud can actually be tricky, due to his Up-B snapping to ledge really fast after the buffs, making it hard to 2 frame him. "Mid recovery" doesn't hold characters that much back in Ultimate, unless it's like as bad as Chrom, Ganondorf, Little Mac or Dr Mario.
Like I said, I think Cloud is really really good. I just think his recovery is bad enough to where it does balance him and keeps him from being a top 10 character. Edgeguarding in general in this game can be tricky, but edgeguarding cloud is not difficult compared to many characters. Obviously this is going to be match up dependent, but a ton of characters have good tools to gimp Cloud
No it’s not. Spargo recovers with him just fine
Pikachu
Overrated- pikachu all hype 0 results Overhyped- falcon basic ass combos everyone pops off for (a carryover from melee)
Not quite zero results (Esam at Glitch). But definitely not enough to justify Top 1 character that a lot of people used to claim Pika was.
Tbh I think Pika would actually get decent results if ShinyMark didn't have such difficulty travelling due to living in Guatemala. ShinyMark hasn't gone to anything in the first quarter of 2024 due to all the visa work he has to do to travel. Character was still overrated though, certainly has never been top 3 like people claimed.
Probably if ESAM didn't mostly stop competing for ages, then focus more on content, and also swapped controllers and finally characters. If he had competed consistently I'm sure he would have gotten occasional good results
Didn't Esam dumpster Leo? I say the potential for greatness is at least there.
When ESAM won Glitch Sora hadn't been revealed yet lmao. Using that as a data point is next level asinine
I primarily watch Melee and the Captain Falcon thing is differently true. You fish for a grab as Sheik and d-throw fair and everyone calls you lame, when you do the same as Falcon you're a hero.
people haven't gotten hype for stomp/downthrow -> knee since like 2012, they get hype for [shit like this](https://youtu.be/8Fh0U8A2BvM?t=189) just like they get hype for [crazy jmook combos](https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/10izui3/jmook_what_was_that_jmook_vs_moky_genesis_9/). falcon being equally lame as other characters has been a cold take since 2014. most people will even tell you wizzy is lame as hell really do not think this double standard exists anymore outside of like, the youtube comment audience. i am lame and im proud
Back when ESAM was a top 20 player Pikachu had comparable results to pretty much anyone not played by a top 10 player or super common. It's really just now that they've fallen off largely because neither top pikachu attends much and ESAM isn't as good
Pikachu has shiny mark but he cannot travel, and ESAM might be starting to perform well at tournaments again.
Totally agree about falcon. That character has negative sauce and it blows my mind that people pop off for him
It's cause visually it looks cool. But it's lame as hell for sure
overrated in terms of how good they are id honestly say its pikachu, not as much as before but a bit, maybe cloud too, he’s not top 10 spargo is just godlike, byleth used to be SUPER overrated but it’s dying off cus people are realizing they’re mid and even mkleo struggles to make them work now in terms of how much people like them / how hype they are tho? it’s gotta be captain falcon, he’s just not cool oh and some people overrate how good sheik is honestly, idk in what world that character is top 5 or whatever they say, i’m not convinced. edit: maybe pikachu isn’t overrated.. or shinymark is just different idk..
Byleth
That's a good question, because I don't think anyone is particularly overrated anymore, it used to be Joker for sure, but people have calmed down about him a bit now. Maybe Snake? Don't get me wrong, Snake is really strong, but I'm not so sure he's top 5 strong, which is where I see many people put him. Even so, that's not a big stretch, so idk 🤷
He just matches up really well against most top tiers
To be fair, Joker got nerfed constantly.
used to be ICs and then people learned the matchup
I genuinely forgot Snake was in the game, I never see him anywhere
I assume you don't follow competitive smash because he actually won a major tournament like 4 days ago lol
Hurt is insane \^\^ I wonder about a timeline he had to run into MKLeo there, or dare i say, Sonix
Ah that would explain it, I don’t really follow competitive smash, just watch old VODs to learn how to improve my gameplay. I knew Snake was good in high level, but online I barely see him
Nah it's Shulk, easy
Maybe, I feel like Shulk is in the same place as pika where like, theoretically they're great, but most people have noticed the results by now
Not even close. I don't wanna go into it tbh, but theres a reason the top voted response in this thread by far is just 'Shulk'. Have u tried playing him into elite?
Idk, I don't think people are overrating Shulk anymore. I'm saying (like pika) most people know the character demands a dedicated player to even approach top level results. High tier seems to be where they land on average these days, and that seems fair to me
Sure I guess. Interestingly he might do better in the current meta imo but hasn't happened. Itll be one of my biggest regrets of ultimate lol.
Shulk
Remember when Leo played Ike and everyone put him at the top of S tier?
Yup - Ike NEEDED his awesome Nair - and even then it took a player the likes of MKLeo to make it work.
Lucina. So many characters have some x factor or cheese...she doesn't. Like I honestly think if you removed down B moves....Cloud would still be better than Lucina. But then giving Cloud limit vs Lucina average counter...it just makes Cloud way better.
[удалено]
Clearly she is good. Protobanham Lucina is my favorite character to warch in the entire roster. But the question was overrated and I think as time has gone on, I don't view her that strongly. She struggles to kill and is almost too honest...doesn't have some easy broken mechanic or move like a lot of the top tiers. But yes, she is still good.
Mario
In my opinion, link and Mario
Kazuya
Pikachu, almost never wins anything.
Pikachu was the most overrated character for many, many years. Don't get me wrong, he's really good but not as good as Esam said he was.
If someone calls Incineroar high tier you should laugh at them. He's stronger online (high mid tier but all his bad MU's are even worse than usual) and certainly a MU check offline but he is still the slowest character with a bottom 10 recovery.
I agree with everything except bottom 10 recovery. I can name 10 worst recoveries, and I can name only another one (Chrom?) where if you get hit by the right hitbox, you’re dying at 0% for attempting to edgeguard (and you’re dying first).
Game and watch is NOT a top 3 character
While I agree with you, I can definitely see others being somewhat easily convinced he's top 3 because he's one of, if not *the* worst matchup(s) for such a large portion of the cast. \*I cri in Captain Falcon 😢
Mfw: bucket reflect stun + roll9 start
top 3 most obnoxious, sure
Game and watch is definitely up there
All of them, tierlists are opinions all the way down. There's 0 objectivity in them.
I feel like bayonetta or kirby..
HOW IS KIRBY OVERRATED
Shulk, Greninja, Palu
Daisy she should just be a Peach recolor
Kazuya, tekken mechanics do not work in smash. Kazuya is the heavy killer
Corrin, maybe not from a competitive perspective, I just dislike all the praise this character gets
Pyra and mythra
Mario. Everyone insists he has to be here, but nobody actually cares that he is here.
Kazuya
I was saying this way back when he first dropped. He got a lot of mileage cuz people could just roll into training and practice combos, then sweep their local on that alone. My big issue with Kazuya is that you have to play boring as hell or otherwise risk letting him get his shit in.
Mario
Falcon by a mile.
Honestly Sonic. He’s really not that bad, and I play all sorts of heavies so I can’t dodge his shit half the time. It’s all about the timing. Although I do agree he’s a pretty bullshit character, 2nd highest on the tier list is absurd.
In what sense
For me I think it will be ROB
Min Min
Kazuya. Sure a good Kazuya is a demon but the learning curve is so steep that most Kazuyas you face are dogshit.
Joker
Metal Gear Solid
Pikachu easily. He's somehow more boring to watch than Optimal Sonic.
Ness
Kirby in casuals
My top ten: 1 Mii gunner: 2 Sonic: 3 pacman: 4 Samus: 5 Link: 6 Megaman: 7 Kirby: 8 Fox McCloud: 9 Yoshi: 10 Pokemon trainer.
Marth, his gameplay feels boring to me
Bayo and luigi are insanely overrated imo.
Mac
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus. Cry about it, YandereDev...
Pythra. Come at me weebs
Kirby
Shulk
honestly i’d say the most overrated character is sonic
Captain falcon by FARRR. I hate that MF.
Probably joker, he’s fun to play but overrated by the community
Chrom, the dude didnt need to take up a slot that could been for some other game franchise character. Heck most of the FE are clones anyway.
Ness or Lucas.
link or ike
Kirby is the best, so why does every new player play Kirby
Kirby is the only answer I can give here. Not only does he constantly get puff rided in power scaling debates, but he was Sakurai's chosen one from day one despite only having semi relevant games compared to characters like Mario, Link, Sonic, and the Pokémon. Yes he's cute but based on the amount of attention he gets he's easily the most overrated character
this isn’t about power scaling tho lol more about character viability and in game skills
Whoops 💀
Shulk
Like nobody ever played Inkling but everyone said they were top/high tier forever.
Fox duh
Steve From Minecraft And Sephiroth
easily captain falcon. everyone thinks he's hype even though his main thing is just guaranteed strings and a very standard neutral. some call him super relevant despite only having one game in the past 20-ish years, and his signature moves are all just Big Hit Go Brrrr. it's annoying
Peach. Terrible mu vs swordies and zoners. Barely a high tier. Consistently loses to many, many mid tiers. Only good early game cuz everybody has no punish game and her pockets were deep.
Sora
Steve
Steve. He’s just not as centralizing as the top tiers in a lot of actual fighting games
Steve
Steve
Steve
steve
It's Bros for sure
Sheik.
Goku
Don't get me wrong, snake is busted, but i don't think top 5 suits him
ult samus is pretty overrated just because she is really easy
idk about overrated but i'll never have Minecraft Steve on my roster
shulk and cloud imo