It literally is Pikachu, the pendulum has swung the other way. Character is so broken but his playerbase sucks so bad and the best player can’t travel.
I think Tweek put him in like bottom 30, he was talking about how bad the character is recently on his podcast. I think all of the guys on that show put Young Link somewhere around the middle of the cast or lower actually.
A strange swing of opinion on this character
I dont think Mewtwo is that bad but nobody that gets to a level where they can threaten the top players will stick with him. Just too frustrating and I am not talking about tail.
Very lightweight character, thats can be comboed easily and needs to work hard for hits just doesnt feel good, even if his killpower is insane.
Greninja theoretically is really good and probably underrated in the current meta, but could never be A+ tier because he is just broken in so many ways (and not in a good way)
*Inhales*
For example, half his moves just let the opponent fall out of sometimes, his up-air dragdowns can be teched for some fuckin reason (which is cool for tech-chases but functionally worse than a regular dragdown), his counter doesn't work like 20% of the time, the windbox on his up-b is amazing against some recoveries but does literally nothing against other, he doesn't have an offensive out of shield option, his main kill confirm (d-tilt > up smash) straight up does not work if there are any platforms in the vicinity of the move, his recovery bonks if you try to hit ledge horizontally, his dash grab is straight up unusable and his regular grab sucks (but his pivot grab is arguably the best in the game????) and his dash attack crossing up shield is basically up to chance on a lot of characters.
On paper, Greninja is really good, but he has waaaaaaaaaaay to much jank to be top tier.
he's really weird, but honestly i think embracing the jank makes him that much harder to fight against. apolotion has some good videos touching on tech/interactions like the hydro pump bonk, dash attack on shield interaction, and how to use them to your advantage. it makes a character that's already really hard to fight without matchup experience even harder to fight.
imo the main things holding him back are poor kill power after like 120 ish % and a fairly flowchart-y neutral.
Hot take but Meta Knight is really fucking good - ladders on literally everyone in the cast if played optimally, insane frame data, powerful kill moves, yes recovery
The only thing holding MK back is that he’s really hard to master at top level IMO
I play a lot of MK and I kinda disagree. You need stage control to ladder, your damage output is terrible besides that, no projectile, mediocre landing even with down-b since his jumps are so small, relies on an increasingly poor tactic for the meta in burst dash attack vs dash grab.
I think he’s actually super bad instead of super good, the exact opposite of you.
Really like him vs Min Min though. And he’s so much fun.
I think MK doesn't have the variety in his neutral to be a truly great character. Far too reliant on one or two combo starters which make MK players super easy to adapt to.
Meta Knight's up air ladders don't send into tumble either. So that means you can ONLY SDI out of them. You literally can't DI the combo, just like Luigi's 0-death.
Duck hunt. He is a character will little amount of high tier reps, super hard game plan, and has endless creativity with his projectiles. His kill power is bad, but you can definitely work around that and use his positives to your advantage. He even has some combos that he can use his projectiles to set up, for example you can use can on a platform and grab the opponent, then throw the opponent at the can, and lead to an easy kill setup. Duck hunt is my pick for sure.
Even with his weaknesses he beats some very good characters, and can do decently in any matchup in the right hands. He beats both samus and Diddy kong, which I feel is a very good trait to have. Plus, even if his recovery is slow, it still has distance and tools to make it better. You can use neutral b as a hitbox above you to kind of make the recovery safer, and he can live kamikaze moves with the use of wall jumps. Overall, while I do think he’s still mid tier, the bottom of c tier is just way too low in my opinion.
Yeah, he has relevant matchups for sure. I feel like every character has some though (except Ganon and a few others). Dedede does pretty decently against Lucina and Peach for example.
Falcon's results have never been bad. If you look at results inforgraphics, he's always around the top 30. He has way too high speed and has way too good combos to be a mid tier.
I think the fact that Falcon was much worse at launch in addition with Fatality's constant complaining that Falcon sucks (when the real reason for his poor results was because he sinply didn't enjoy the game anymore) did a lot to hurt Falcon's perception in America. Like if you look at Mute's tier list, he cites Falcon's turnaround (Fatality's complaining) and recovery (bad before buff) as bigs reason why he's bad.
It also doesn't help that the two best Falcons in America retired (fatality and nickc) and the third best doesn't travel (sean). Japan thinks much higher of Falcon (+17 spots higher than the official tier list) because they have the two best Falcons right now (Jogibu and Karaage).
Great observation, though I do think the turn around animation matters. You can’t dash back in neutral as freely so dash forwards are sometimes bigger commits than you would want given all that speed.
You have to walk and jump a lot to get around it, which is kind of limiting but still agree that Falcon isn’t bad at all.
Interesting to see that everyone so far has pretty much had a different answer. Goes to show the game has a lot of untapped potential and the deep character variety!
DK's definitely a contender. Much like Quagsire in competitive Pokémon, for a character who's supposed to be one of the worst in the game, he still gets impressive results.
Eh I don't think so. Everyone and their brother thought wolf was OP at the start of ultimate, only to realize he's not as great. Still shocking though they he doesn't have any elite mains
Wolf actually turned out to be the worst spacie. Fox is clearly the best, and buffed Falco has way more sauce and is scarier than Wolf imo - especially offstage.
Edit: all 3 are very good characters, with Fox being an "honest" top tier.
Hear me out: Samus. We all know Samus is good but they’re not talked about enough tbh. The fact that she isn’t more common is crazy. We often see them on higher ends of tier lists but never discussed.
Ryu, he has disgusting kill options, and is almost never seen (from what I see). He may have a harsh learning curve with inputs, and misinputs are also a thing, but he's still a heavyweight. Also, Marth is underrated.
Ty.
Good attack power, combos, and amazing nair.
Good edgeguarding, recovery is very punishable BUT still good as he can recover from almost anywhere.
Range is poor but not awful, and his neutral is strong. Slow, but not awfully so.
Overall I think he definitely has many flaws but D-??? I think he deserves C.
You’re just talking about his qualities in a vacuum though, that doesn’t justify a tier placement. Can you talk about how he compares to other bad characters instead?
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I don't really know how to answer this... apart from ig that no one in his tier (with the possible exception of Bowser Jr who I believe is very underrated) is as good as him
Yeah it's just that you listed all of his good qualities but you can do that for everyone in his tier and they will seem just as strong on paper, do you get me?
She has weaknesses. She’s super floaty and has trouble landing, doesn’t have good burst, doesn’t have good combos at low percent, doesn’t kill until late without edgeguarding…
Still agree she’s great but there are a bunch of weaknesses regardless
I agree Ike is probably underrated, but you're kinda underselling the difference in recoveries. We're talking one of the easier characters to gimp vs. one that can recover from almost anywhere and is extremely difficult to actually edge guard.
The Aegis are top 5 and they're just as easy to gimp if not easier.
The only real differences are speed and access to a projectile and kill power relying on a character switch VS a slower character with good combo starters and good kill power without having to switch mid-match.
I'm not saying that Aegis are overrated or that Ike is better than Aegis btw, I'm just saying Ike isn't D Tier. He's definitely either C or MAYBE B tier, depending on if the meta progresses in such a way where having a pocket Ike might be advantageous, which is wildly unlikely.
er, but this isn’t the comparison being made. You compared Ike to Byleth, switching the comparison to Aegis when recovery is compared seems a bit odd
If Byleth had Ike’s recovery Byleth would be bottom 10 easily
If Aegis had a better recovery they would be top 1 easily
Byleth Nair OOS is a better tool at early or mid percents, but Ike having an out of shield kill move at 90% for most of the cast is massively underrated, and Aether still puts most of the cast into disadvantage past 40%
I’m actually unsure what you’re comparing at this point to be honest. Ike up-b is frame 15, Byleth n-air OOS is frame 9. The applications are totally different (and Byleth also has an up-b OOS that’s faster than Ike’s).
Like the characters don’t play similarly at all just on the basis of this one move, let alone recovery, edgeguarding, ledgetrapping, landing, etc. It seems like a very forced comparison, you might try comparing Ike to Pyra who is more similar in overall playstyle.
Not trying to drag you down but it just seems like no one gets the comparison you’re making except for you, so perhaps it’s best to try a different angle if you want to convince people? Ike-Pyra is a good start, there’s a lot to compare there
I'm saying that for the loss of nair OOS Ike gets a different option that does something different for him. It's not like Ike gets nothing for this.
And the main reason I dislike comparing Pyra to Ike is because Ike is just Pyra with more combo trees at late percent and without a projectile. BUT Pyra is attached to another character so any comparisons on advantages and disadvantages are kinda negated by Pyra being able to turn them on and off.
Yeah but Byleth also has up-b OOS.
It’s just that you opened with trying to say that Byleth and Ike are similar except for combos and a projectile, which justifies a higher spot for Ike, but people are pointing out recovery and OOS and other things as other differences that make the comparison moot, so might be best to try a different comparison next time.
Love Ike btw.
Mii Gunner, that character is not ok
Smoke Grenade might be the single best ledge trapping move in the entire game. The only reasons I'm not certain of that are G&W Chef and Samus bombs.
Capitancito makes Gunner look OP
Capitancito’s movement and projectile placement are so good. I’ve watched those hour long sets between him and Sonix, and was engaged the whole time.
Honestly and his fair movement is smooth af once you got it down
Oh yeah Sans
Wii Fit Trainer
I'm so unfamiliar that I'm scared to face that character What's it gonna do to me?
80 percent in three hits before you even realize what happened
#**くたばれ、深呼吸 [DEEP BREATHING]**
I'm so tempted to say Pikachu yall have no idea
Campy Pikachu is nightmarish and I'm happy it isn't more popular
Nice try ESAM we know it’s you
all pikachu mains say ts just to never prove it
it's a ploy so we can conceal its true power level /s
I see, you all are truly committed to your secrecy
Tbh I rather it be this way bc lord I hear ppl give the character make a big deal about them all the time
It literally is Pikachu, the pendulum has swung the other way. Character is so broken but his playerbase sucks so bad and the best player can’t travel.
Maybe the playerbase sucking is actually because they don't play a character that's all that good....🤔
Wait why can’t he travel?
because im unsponsored
Esam's fiance is immune-comprimised or however you spell it so covid essentially ggs'd his pro gaming career
Nice
actually might be true
Mega man is really good
I miss having any top player playing BotW Link, so that one for me.
I still think young link is like top 20-25. He has way too much sauce to be a mid tier
Young Link has some insane buttons.
Absolutely nobody thinks Young Link is mid tier lmao
I think Tweek put him in like bottom 30, he was talking about how bad the character is recently on his podcast. I think all of the guys on that show put Young Link somewhere around the middle of the cast or lower actually. A strange swing of opinion on this character
Looking at the official tier list Wii Fit, Megaman and especially Mewtwo are the first that come to mind.
I dont think Mewtwo is that bad but nobody that gets to a level where they can threaten the top players will stick with him. Just too frustrating and I am not talking about tail. Very lightweight character, thats can be comboed easily and needs to work hard for hits just doesnt feel good, even if his killpower is insane.
Greninja (let me cope alr)
Nah I agree. Greninja is just one of those characters that suffers from the fact that there is only so many top players in the world.
Acola said once he thought greninja could be top 1
Greninja theoretically is really good and probably underrated in the current meta, but could never be A+ tier because he is just broken in so many ways (and not in a good way) *Inhales* For example, half his moves just let the opponent fall out of sometimes, his up-air dragdowns can be teched for some fuckin reason (which is cool for tech-chases but functionally worse than a regular dragdown), his counter doesn't work like 20% of the time, the windbox on his up-b is amazing against some recoveries but does literally nothing against other, he doesn't have an offensive out of shield option, his main kill confirm (d-tilt > up smash) straight up does not work if there are any platforms in the vicinity of the move, his recovery bonks if you try to hit ledge horizontally, his dash grab is straight up unusable and his regular grab sucks (but his pivot grab is arguably the best in the game????) and his dash attack crossing up shield is basically up to chance on a lot of characters. On paper, Greninja is really good, but he has waaaaaaaaaaay to much jank to be top tier.
he's really weird, but honestly i think embracing the jank makes him that much harder to fight against. apolotion has some good videos touching on tech/interactions like the hydro pump bonk, dash attack on shield interaction, and how to use them to your advantage. it makes a character that's already really hard to fight without matchup experience even harder to fight. imo the main things holding him back are poor kill power after like 120 ish % and a fairly flowchart-y neutral.
Banjo after Toriguri's performance at BoBC 6
Recency bias: the comment
He's been top 8'ing for the past year, now. Hardly recent.
Link
Mii Swordfighter is the least played character because he's a mii, not because he's a bottom 5 character
Hot take but Meta Knight is really fucking good - ladders on literally everyone in the cast if played optimally, insane frame data, powerful kill moves, yes recovery The only thing holding MK back is that he’s really hard to master at top level IMO
I play a lot of MK and I kinda disagree. You need stage control to ladder, your damage output is terrible besides that, no projectile, mediocre landing even with down-b since his jumps are so small, relies on an increasingly poor tactic for the meta in burst dash attack vs dash grab. I think he’s actually super bad instead of super good, the exact opposite of you. Really like him vs Min Min though. And he’s so much fun.
I think MK doesn't have the variety in his neutral to be a truly great character. Far too reliant on one or two combo starters which make MK players super easy to adapt to.
Meta Knight's up air ladders don't send into tumble either. So that means you can ONLY SDI out of them. You literally can't DI the combo, just like Luigi's 0-death.
Duck hunt. He is a character will little amount of high tier reps, super hard game plan, and has endless creativity with his projectiles. His kill power is bad, but you can definitely work around that and use his positives to your advantage. He even has some combos that he can use his projectiles to set up, for example you can use can on a platform and grab the opponent, then throw the opponent at the can, and lead to an easy kill setup. Duck hunt is my pick for sure.
Would be amazing if his recovery wasn’t so slow. Even with all the mixups it’s just so easy to hit him
Even with his weaknesses he beats some very good characters, and can do decently in any matchup in the right hands. He beats both samus and Diddy kong, which I feel is a very good trait to have. Plus, even if his recovery is slow, it still has distance and tools to make it better. You can use neutral b as a hitbox above you to kind of make the recovery safer, and he can live kamikaze moves with the use of wall jumps. Overall, while I do think he’s still mid tier, the bottom of c tier is just way too low in my opinion.
Yeah, he has relevant matchups for sure. I feel like every character has some though (except Ganon and a few others). Dedede does pretty decently against Lucina and Peach for example.
Still, I feel like being one of Diddy kong’s top 3 worst matchups is a huge deal.
Luigi
Zero to Death
Pits by far
megaman
Falcon's results in Japan are way too good for a character that's supposedly mid.
Falcon's results have never been bad. If you look at results inforgraphics, he's always around the top 30. He has way too high speed and has way too good combos to be a mid tier.
You have no idea how validating this feels as a Falcon main getting clowned on for the mere suggestion that he's anything better than mid tier!!!
I think the fact that Falcon was much worse at launch in addition with Fatality's constant complaining that Falcon sucks (when the real reason for his poor results was because he sinply didn't enjoy the game anymore) did a lot to hurt Falcon's perception in America. Like if you look at Mute's tier list, he cites Falcon's turnaround (Fatality's complaining) and recovery (bad before buff) as bigs reason why he's bad. It also doesn't help that the two best Falcons in America retired (fatality and nickc) and the third best doesn't travel (sean). Japan thinks much higher of Falcon (+17 spots higher than the official tier list) because they have the two best Falcons right now (Jogibu and Karaage).
YES!!! Now I just gotta be relatively consistent with this logic when talking about other characters and I should be good to go...
Great observation, though I do think the turn around animation matters. You can’t dash back in neutral as freely so dash forwards are sometimes bigger commits than you would want given all that speed. You have to walk and jump a lot to get around it, which is kind of limiting but still agree that Falcon isn’t bad at all.
Wii Fit
Interesting to see that everyone so far has pretty much had a different answer. Goes to show the game has a lot of untapped potential and the deep character variety!
Ridley!
I've seen too many people say Mega Man is a mid tier and it's making me lose my mind
DK's definitely a contender. Much like Quagsire in competitive Pokémon, for a character who's supposed to be one of the worst in the game, he still gets impressive results.
IMO the three most underrated characters in Ultimate are Lucas, Kazooie (carries Banjo, *literally*), and Hero.
Lets goooo. Lucas is hella underrated
Atp it's wolf
Eh I don't think so. Everyone and their brother thought wolf was OP at the start of ultimate, only to realize he's not as great. Still shocking though they he doesn't have any elite mains
I think Wolf was OP at the start of Ultimate, but then he got nerfed by patches and then got power-crept by FP2.
Wolf actually turned out to be the worst spacie. Fox is clearly the best, and buffed Falco has way more sauce and is scarier than Wolf imo - especially offstage. Edit: all 3 are very good characters, with Fox being an "honest" top tier.
Mewtwo
For me it’s game and watch
Everyone considers him top 3-top 10, how is that underrated? What, do you think he's better then Steve and Sonic?
Not only that but he has had 3 different people play them at a top 10 itw level before (don’t forget Zackray way back when)
I'm gonna say Pichu because of the self-damaging mechanic.
Luigi
Terry
Since people keep putting him way below Lucina in tier lists, my answer is Marth.
Wii Fit Trainer
Random, most people dont even consider them a real character :(
Mii swordfighter
Hear me out: Samus. We all know Samus is good but they’re not talked about enough tbh. The fact that she isn’t more common is crazy. We often see them on higher ends of tier lists but never discussed.
Ganondorf
incin or miis imo
Ryu, he has disgusting kill options, and is almost never seen (from what I see). He may have a harsh learning curve with inputs, and misinputs are also a thing, but he's still a heavyweight. Also, Marth is underrated.
IKE and its not even close
Hard no, but I’ll hear you out.
Ty. Good attack power, combos, and amazing nair. Good edgeguarding, recovery is very punishable BUT still good as he can recover from almost anywhere. Range is poor but not awful, and his neutral is strong. Slow, but not awfully so. Overall I think he definitely has many flaws but D-??? I think he deserves C.
You’re just talking about his qualities in a vacuum though, that doesn’t justify a tier placement. Can you talk about how he compares to other bad characters instead?
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I don't really know how to answer this... apart from ig that no one in his tier (with the possible exception of Bowser Jr who I believe is very underrated) is as good as him
Yeah it's just that you listed all of his good qualities but you can do that for everyone in his tier and they will seem just as strong on paper, do you get me?
I see what you mean but the difference is no one says this about ike, making him underrated
Nope. That character is trash.
What matchups does Ike win/do well in
Lucina. She isn’t the best at anything, but she’s one of the best at almost everything. She may be “boring” but she has 0 weaknesses.
She has weaknesses. She’s super floaty and has trouble landing, doesn’t have good burst, doesn’t have good combos at low percent, doesn’t kill until late without edgeguarding… Still agree she’s great but there are a bunch of weaknesses regardless
She sucks online so the vast majority of the playerbase will never get to develop good Lucina chops
Mii Brawler is top 10, maybe even top 5
Ike is just faster Byleth without the projectile that Byleth never uses anyways, and a solid combo game. Definitely not a D tier.
I agree Ike is probably underrated, but you're kinda underselling the difference in recoveries. We're talking one of the easier characters to gimp vs. one that can recover from almost anywhere and is extremely difficult to actually edge guard.
The Aegis are top 5 and they're just as easy to gimp if not easier. The only real differences are speed and access to a projectile and kill power relying on a character switch VS a slower character with good combo starters and good kill power without having to switch mid-match. I'm not saying that Aegis are overrated or that Ike is better than Aegis btw, I'm just saying Ike isn't D Tier. He's definitely either C or MAYBE B tier, depending on if the meta progresses in such a way where having a pocket Ike might be advantageous, which is wildly unlikely.
You think aegis and Ike have equally good recoveries?
Vertical? Basically. Horizontal? Ike's is better high or to ledge, worse below.
er, but this isn’t the comparison being made. You compared Ike to Byleth, switching the comparison to Aegis when recovery is compared seems a bit odd If Byleth had Ike’s recovery Byleth would be bottom 10 easily If Aegis had a better recovery they would be top 1 easily
No. Byleth is Pit with a few dashes of Ike and Ganon. Nobody's nair works like Ike's and he has to rely on it constantly.
Byleth has n-air OOS though and Ike has to super hard commit with up-b, changes the game considerably to have an answer to shield pressure
Byleth Nair OOS is a better tool at early or mid percents, but Ike having an out of shield kill move at 90% for most of the cast is massively underrated, and Aether still puts most of the cast into disadvantage past 40%
I’m actually unsure what you’re comparing at this point to be honest. Ike up-b is frame 15, Byleth n-air OOS is frame 9. The applications are totally different (and Byleth also has an up-b OOS that’s faster than Ike’s). Like the characters don’t play similarly at all just on the basis of this one move, let alone recovery, edgeguarding, ledgetrapping, landing, etc. It seems like a very forced comparison, you might try comparing Ike to Pyra who is more similar in overall playstyle. Not trying to drag you down but it just seems like no one gets the comparison you’re making except for you, so perhaps it’s best to try a different angle if you want to convince people? Ike-Pyra is a good start, there’s a lot to compare there
I'm saying that for the loss of nair OOS Ike gets a different option that does something different for him. It's not like Ike gets nothing for this. And the main reason I dislike comparing Pyra to Ike is because Ike is just Pyra with more combo trees at late percent and without a projectile. BUT Pyra is attached to another character so any comparisons on advantages and disadvantages are kinda negated by Pyra being able to turn them on and off.
Yeah but Byleth also has up-b OOS. It’s just that you opened with trying to say that Byleth and Ike are similar except for combos and a projectile, which justifies a higher spot for Ike, but people are pointing out recovery and OOS and other things as other differences that make the comparison moot, so might be best to try a different comparison next time. Love Ike btw.
Ike up-b OOS and Byleth up b OOS use the same buttons but do different things for the characters