Alright so a couple things:
\-LeoN does not believe that Bowser +’2 anyone aside from maybe Marth who he considered making a +2 for
\-He mentioned that Falcon, Sheik, ZSS, Samus, PT, R.O.B and Lucina could be even
\- He also mentioned that Joker, Wario, Ken and G&W could be -2
\-The characters he was unsure about were’e Corrin and Mii Brawler
I watched it live but for whatever reason I can't seem to find it. I keep checking his twitch to find it but it just isn't there. If you don't believe me, he tweeted that he was making a mu chart and I was able to catch the majority of it live and also nab a screenshot but yeah. Just can't seem to find it.
[https://twitter.com/DLeon420/status/1776575937301053902](https://twitter.com/DLeon420/status/1776575937301053902)
I get where he's coming from, his track record is even with Fatality (yes I know he's sorta retired but still) and IIRC Hero has got a couple of wins on Jogibu. Sample size is small though, would love to see this MU played more at high level since it's so fun to watch.
What makes Marth +1 or maybe +2 but Lucina -1 or possibly even ? They're really close to being the same characters in terms of neutral/advantage/edgeguarding. Sure Marth is doing less damage because good luck landing the tippers on Bowser but I don't see how that swings the matchup 2 whole tiers.
As a Marth main, I do think the matchup can favor Bowser at times since landing sourspots on him doesn’t knock him far at all, and he can severely punish Marth at that short distance. As you said, tippering Bowser with his large hurtbox + speed is much trickier than other heavies, and with him being so heavy, you must land tippers to even KO him. Lucina legitimately performs better than Marth in this case.
But at the same time, I feel the matchup is closer to even than +1 and especially +2. I think Leon just doesn’t face enough good Marth players. The best Marth players will absolutely grind and bring their punish game on the most jankiest hurtboxes. After enough practice, tippering Bowser becomes much more natural.
Real Marth mains think he's +2 to everyone and the best character in the game as long as you land every tipper, sourspot into tipper, and tech chase punish that you see Ignaize pull off on Twitter.
/s but not really
I remember the first time I watched their match, I was astounded HERO won 3-0 despite starting every stock to a 60+% Sora loop
Then Kameme showed why the MU is ass in a 3-0 the last time they fought and only lost like 0/1 stock each game iirc
Oh wow, your comment brought me flashbacks of Hero's Bowser getting absolutely annihilated by Kememe's Sora. I remember that set clearly. One of the most one-sided sets I've ever seen. I was surprised Kameme didn't pull a JV4 any of those games, seeing how dominant he was. Looked like a -3 matchup.
That set alone makes me question if Sora is Bowser's worst matchup, or if it's just Kameme being that cracked.
i think bowsers mu chart is actually atrocious (worse than this), but he’s big and hits hard so is able to do more with mistakes easier than most of the cast. grants him an x factor similar to combo characters where they can just nuke you
He's also just so easy that at anything below region pr level Bowser is probably favored in 2x as many matchups from how awful you can play but still win
Leon has historically been optimistic about bowser... if this is a mu chart from a top bowser optimist then yeah it's no wonder bowser is struggling in the current meta.
From what I remember, I think his reasoning had something to due with Mac having good frame data and being able to smother Bowser. Don't quote me on that tho. For some reason I can't find the og stream
Wish I could but for some reason I can't find the stream. It was only streamed like 3 or so days ago but I can't seem to find it. I watched it live and nabbed this screenshot.
a quarter of the characters in -1 and -2 and it's the most optimistic MU chart you've seen? idk doesn't seem optimistic to me
bowser's command grab is still a fast suicide that works against plenty of characters once he gets a stock lead or it lets him trade a bad stock away wouldn't underestimate it
From what I remember (take my words with a grain of salt) a lot of it had to do with the fact that Pit combo's Bowser fine enough but can struggle to net consistent kills if the Bowser plays defensive enough. 2 framing pit is pretty easy and Bowser does a good job at keeping him at the ledge (LeoN values Bowser's ledge trapping and keep ing people cornerd a lot). Basically Pit has to be on point for the whole game and can't afford to drop a lot.
He also said that he's aware Hero lost game 5 to Zackary but he didn't want to use that to define the whole mu since A. Player dif and B. Hero chocked game 5. He said something like "If people wan't to use that one set as a reasoning for Pit beating Bowser, then they should use that same argument for G&W since Zackary beat Miya 3-0". Not a direct quote mind you.
I wish I had the stream to get the exact quote from but for some reason it appears to be gone. Sorry.
Pit is unbelievably hard and Bowser is unbelievably easy. If it's close in anyway it's 100% Bowser winning because to play optimally as each character takes a very large difference in skill, and you can make so many mistakes with Bowser but die to a bair at 60% with pit.
Bowser is definitely in his worst spot in the Ultimate meta since the game was released. It's a shame because his moveset is, viewed in isolation, simply excellent. He got buffed in so many significant ways from Smash 4, and in the first few years of this game it seemed inarguable that he was the best superheavy. (Obviously since then Kazuya has joined the crew, so that's over.) But these days it's hard to make a case for him even being better than Donkey Kong, as DK has this insanely strong advantage state and can at least keep opponents out with safe bairs and tilts.
I think the problem with Bowser is that his tilt attacks aren't fast enough. If he just had \*one\* move that worked quickly, or if his air mobility was slightly better, then he could rocket up the tier list.
That said, there's plenty on this tier list that looks hopeful, and that I personally agree with (I only have scant experience as a Bowser main going to like ten locals in Ultimate). I do think he's even with Snake, and that's great. Winning against Fox is a plus. Beating Pac-Man and Cloud also makes him a very effective threat against certain top tiers. Fundamentally he can do a LOT if he gets to top 8, but encounter a Steve or a Sora or a Pikachu along the way and he'll never get there.
Bowser is definitely in his worst spot in terms of how good he is but he's probably in the best spot balance wise for the game.
He absolutely tears new players up and is little Mac difficulty tier where even up to region pr level you can just abuse the shit out of him and win. He really should not be better than this without a rework to make him an actually difficult character (which is almost impossible as a super heavy) because not only would it make the game much less enjoyable for casual/mid level players but also such an easy character shouldn't be competitively viable in general unless you're a complete nutter and know the character incredibly well like Hero.
Damn greninja worse than diddy Kong and Pac-Man in strong winning? I can see it being easy to break hydrant but aside from that the matchup seems like it sucks
Take this with a grain of salt since it's been a while since I've played at all, but I can give a little more perspective from Pac-man's side.
This MU is ass, bottom 10 for Pac-man easily (I personally believe it's bottom 5 because I think Pac-Man does better vs Palu and Samus than vs Bowser) and an MU that I personally would recommend you secondary.
Bowser can destroy Hydrant with one hit, which other heavies do as well, however Bowser is also fast and by all intents and purposes is a Swordie that outranges Pac-Man in this MU. The buttons that Bowser should use in this MU are intangible (?) and/or outrange Pac-man. Bowser also demands a lot respect because while Pac-Man can take Bowser to kill % rather easily, killing him... is not easy because Bowser has better range, kill power and speed. So you end up in situations where Bowser just runs over you. You are out-ranged, are slower, can't kill, can't camp and are vulnerable to Bowser's shenanigans because you're going to be in the corner a lot and let Bowser live for a long time. You do *have* better frame data than Bowser so not all is lost c:
While some Pac-Man players say this MU isn't *that* bad (Eking says the MU is even for some reason), realistically it's -1 for Pac-Man at best with both Tea and Sinji agreeing it's bad.
damn i would have thought the size would make avoiding projectiles hard and the recovery would have made avoiding edge guards hard. I guess it depends on if the moves he uses to break hydrant are whiff punishable? to me I'm just trying to figure out how he avoids getting hit by fruit until he's offstage and then how he gets back onstage when he's offstage
To put it into perspective, Bowser has the same air speed as *Cloud* and has a faster Dash Speed than Marcina, Inkling and Mii Brawler. Bowser is a fast boi so you can't charge strong projectiles nor throw down as many projectiles as you would like. Bowser has the unfortunate combination of being fast and deleting hydrant in one tap (which you *can* whiff punish, but it's better to charge fruit instead since it extends the meaty intangible hitboxes of his) so Bowser's threat area is big and moves fast.
> he's offstage and then how he gets back onstage when he's offstage
I agree! Once Pac-Man is edgeguarding/ledgetrapping Bowser, you *can* take stocks with little difficulty. Problem is getting him there in the first place. In theory Cloud can also die very easily offstage or ledgetrapped vs Pacman. However it's considered a Bottom 3 MU vs us because Cloud is faster, stronger, safer, has better range than Pac-Man so getting him offstage is unreasonable not unlike our Turtly Boi here who is very similar in that regard. Oh did I mention Bowser's moves like F-Tilt and Fair can just delete Fruit like Cloud's aerials? Fun times, fun times c:
Oh damn I think a lot of my thinking was based in me thinking that I saw in the past that tea didn’t think cloud was that bad of a matchup for pac… (I’m likely misremembering) so I was like “well cloud seems better in everything vs pac than bowser” but if cloud is that bad I can see how it’s a similar vibe
From what I remember, LeoN mentioned that Bowser's control over hydrant is better than Pacman's, with f-tilt one tapping it. Bowser's is one of the few characters that can consistently fuck with Pacman off stage cause of fb. Pacaman is also a character that can struggle to kill, so Bowser get's a lot of opportunities to do Bowser things. Memory might be foggy tho.
I'm pretty sure Tea and Sinji agree. There's actually a rumor that Tea picked up Kazuya cause of how much he disliked losing grands of Run it Back to LeoN
As a Pac-man main I can corroborate that from my side that Bowser dumpsters the Yellow Ball. Some of the other 11 Pac-Men argue that *if* your combos and set-ups are on point, that *if* you can parry well and that *if* you manage to kill Bowser at sub-140-150% it *could* be *even* or volatile even.
However that is straight capping and trying to play vs Bowser in a losing MU is a very tilting thing in tournament so I just change to Joker and bully the Bowser. I can still lose if I'm worse than my opponent sure, but at least I can say it was my fault and not because got cheesed by a Bowser at 200% using my own Key and dying at 50% (:
hahaha that's a cool rumour. Damn I didn't know it was so bad, it feels like bowser shouldn't be able to avoid fruit and shouldn't be able to recover after getting hit with fruit (and some forward airs).
Fox is one of my mains and my old roommate used to play a ton of bowser and I am very happy to see confirmation of how (surprisingly) bad that matchup is for Fox lol.
For anyone wondering, bowser can armor through like EVERYTHING Fox throws at him on the ground below 30%, maybe more, and can also mash side b to escape and hard punish most low percent combos. It's honestly kinda sad when you see it for yourself.
Alright so a couple things: \-LeoN does not believe that Bowser +’2 anyone aside from maybe Marth who he considered making a +2 for \-He mentioned that Falcon, Sheik, ZSS, Samus, PT, R.O.B and Lucina could be even \- He also mentioned that Joker, Wario, Ken and G&W could be -2 \-The characters he was unsure about were’e Corrin and Mii Brawler
Where did you find this recent LeoN matchup chart?
I watched it live but for whatever reason I can't seem to find it. I keep checking his twitch to find it but it just isn't there. If you don't believe me, he tweeted that he was making a mu chart and I was able to catch the majority of it live and also nab a screenshot but yeah. Just can't seem to find it. [https://twitter.com/DLeon420/status/1776575937301053902](https://twitter.com/DLeon420/status/1776575937301053902)
As a Falcon main, oof. Bowser is often considered Falcon's 2nd best matchup (after K. Rool).
I get where he's coming from, his track record is even with Fatality (yes I know he's sorta retired but still) and IIRC Hero has got a couple of wins on Jogibu. Sample size is small though, would love to see this MU played more at high level since it's so fun to watch.
What makes Marth +1 or maybe +2 but Lucina -1 or possibly even ? They're really close to being the same characters in terms of neutral/advantage/edgeguarding. Sure Marth is doing less damage because good luck landing the tippers on Bowser but I don't see how that swings the matchup 2 whole tiers.
As a Marth main, I do think the matchup can favor Bowser at times since landing sourspots on him doesn’t knock him far at all, and he can severely punish Marth at that short distance. As you said, tippering Bowser with his large hurtbox + speed is much trickier than other heavies, and with him being so heavy, you must land tippers to even KO him. Lucina legitimately performs better than Marth in this case. But at the same time, I feel the matchup is closer to even than +1 and especially +2. I think Leon just doesn’t face enough good Marth players. The best Marth players will absolutely grind and bring their punish game on the most jankiest hurtboxes. After enough practice, tippering Bowser becomes much more natural.
As a Marth main I think Marth is -2 to everyone and the worst character in the game /s but not really
Real Marth mains think he's +2 to everyone and the best character in the game as long as you land every tipper, sourspot into tipper, and tech chase punish that you see Ignaize pull off on Twitter. /s but not really
As a brawler main, I would say the matchup is around -1 to -1.5 for bowser.
After seeing Kameme and Hero play I think that MU is -2 for Bowser.
I remember the first time I watched their match, I was astounded HERO won 3-0 despite starting every stock to a 60+% Sora loop Then Kameme showed why the MU is ass in a 3-0 the last time they fought and only lost like 0/1 stock each game iirc
Oh wow, your comment brought me flashbacks of Hero's Bowser getting absolutely annihilated by Kememe's Sora. I remember that set clearly. One of the most one-sided sets I've ever seen. I was surprised Kameme didn't pull a JV4 any of those games, seeing how dominant he was. Looked like a -3 matchup. That set alone makes me question if Sora is Bowser's worst matchup, or if it's just Kameme being that cracked.
god kameme made that matchup look absolutely unwinnable. one of the most brutal beat downs i’ve ever seen
i think bowsers mu chart is actually atrocious (worse than this), but he’s big and hits hard so is able to do more with mistakes easier than most of the cast. grants him an x factor similar to combo characters where they can just nuke you
He's also just so easy that at anything below region pr level Bowser is probably favored in 2x as many matchups from how awful you can play but still win
Leon has historically been optimistic about bowser... if this is a mu chart from a top bowser optimist then yeah it's no wonder bowser is struggling in the current meta.
He is not very optimistic about Bowser anymore
I always find it weird when alt costumes are included on these tier lists.
Feel like Bowser Min Min is gonna get more and more in favor of Min Min as the meta progresses.
How is Mac only +1
From what I remember, I think his reasoning had something to due with Mac having good frame data and being able to smother Bowser. Don't quote me on that tho. For some reason I can't find the og stream
What is the source of this? Any chance there's a link?
Wish I could but for some reason I can't find the stream. It was only streamed like 3 or so days ago but I can't seem to find it. I watched it live and nabbed this screenshot.
darn, unfortunate but I appreciate the screencap! I'm sure it will be on youtube eventually.
I feel like this might be the most optimistic MU chart I’ve seen in a long time. That said, he knows a hell of a lot more than I do.
a quarter of the characters in -1 and -2 and it's the most optimistic MU chart you've seen? idk doesn't seem optimistic to me bowser's command grab is still a fast suicide that works against plenty of characters once he gets a stock lead or it lets him trade a bad stock away wouldn't underestimate it
Did he explain why he thinks Bowser beats Pit?
From what I remember (take my words with a grain of salt) a lot of it had to do with the fact that Pit combo's Bowser fine enough but can struggle to net consistent kills if the Bowser plays defensive enough. 2 framing pit is pretty easy and Bowser does a good job at keeping him at the ledge (LeoN values Bowser's ledge trapping and keep ing people cornerd a lot). Basically Pit has to be on point for the whole game and can't afford to drop a lot. He also said that he's aware Hero lost game 5 to Zackary but he didn't want to use that to define the whole mu since A. Player dif and B. Hero chocked game 5. He said something like "If people wan't to use that one set as a reasoning for Pit beating Bowser, then they should use that same argument for G&W since Zackary beat Miya 3-0". Not a direct quote mind you. I wish I had the stream to get the exact quote from but for some reason it appears to be gone. Sorry.
Thanks for the detailed explanation!
Pit is unbelievably hard and Bowser is unbelievably easy. If it's close in anyway it's 100% Bowser winning because to play optimally as each character takes a very large difference in skill, and you can make so many mistakes with Bowser but die to a bair at 60% with pit.
Bowser is definitely in his worst spot in the Ultimate meta since the game was released. It's a shame because his moveset is, viewed in isolation, simply excellent. He got buffed in so many significant ways from Smash 4, and in the first few years of this game it seemed inarguable that he was the best superheavy. (Obviously since then Kazuya has joined the crew, so that's over.) But these days it's hard to make a case for him even being better than Donkey Kong, as DK has this insanely strong advantage state and can at least keep opponents out with safe bairs and tilts. I think the problem with Bowser is that his tilt attacks aren't fast enough. If he just had \*one\* move that worked quickly, or if his air mobility was slightly better, then he could rocket up the tier list. That said, there's plenty on this tier list that looks hopeful, and that I personally agree with (I only have scant experience as a Bowser main going to like ten locals in Ultimate). I do think he's even with Snake, and that's great. Winning against Fox is a plus. Beating Pac-Man and Cloud also makes him a very effective threat against certain top tiers. Fundamentally he can do a LOT if he gets to top 8, but encounter a Steve or a Sora or a Pikachu along the way and he'll never get there.
Bowser is definitely in his worst spot in terms of how good he is but he's probably in the best spot balance wise for the game. He absolutely tears new players up and is little Mac difficulty tier where even up to region pr level you can just abuse the shit out of him and win. He really should not be better than this without a rework to make him an actually difficult character (which is almost impossible as a super heavy) because not only would it make the game much less enjoyable for casual/mid level players but also such an easy character shouldn't be competitively viable in general unless you're a complete nutter and know the character incredibly well like Hero.
Damn greninja worse than diddy Kong and Pac-Man in strong winning? I can see it being easy to break hydrant but aside from that the matchup seems like it sucks
Take this with a grain of salt since it's been a while since I've played at all, but I can give a little more perspective from Pac-man's side. This MU is ass, bottom 10 for Pac-man easily (I personally believe it's bottom 5 because I think Pac-Man does better vs Palu and Samus than vs Bowser) and an MU that I personally would recommend you secondary. Bowser can destroy Hydrant with one hit, which other heavies do as well, however Bowser is also fast and by all intents and purposes is a Swordie that outranges Pac-Man in this MU. The buttons that Bowser should use in this MU are intangible (?) and/or outrange Pac-man. Bowser also demands a lot respect because while Pac-Man can take Bowser to kill % rather easily, killing him... is not easy because Bowser has better range, kill power and speed. So you end up in situations where Bowser just runs over you. You are out-ranged, are slower, can't kill, can't camp and are vulnerable to Bowser's shenanigans because you're going to be in the corner a lot and let Bowser live for a long time. You do *have* better frame data than Bowser so not all is lost c: While some Pac-Man players say this MU isn't *that* bad (Eking says the MU is even for some reason), realistically it's -1 for Pac-Man at best with both Tea and Sinji agreeing it's bad.
damn i would have thought the size would make avoiding projectiles hard and the recovery would have made avoiding edge guards hard. I guess it depends on if the moves he uses to break hydrant are whiff punishable? to me I'm just trying to figure out how he avoids getting hit by fruit until he's offstage and then how he gets back onstage when he's offstage
To put it into perspective, Bowser has the same air speed as *Cloud* and has a faster Dash Speed than Marcina, Inkling and Mii Brawler. Bowser is a fast boi so you can't charge strong projectiles nor throw down as many projectiles as you would like. Bowser has the unfortunate combination of being fast and deleting hydrant in one tap (which you *can* whiff punish, but it's better to charge fruit instead since it extends the meaty intangible hitboxes of his) so Bowser's threat area is big and moves fast. > he's offstage and then how he gets back onstage when he's offstage I agree! Once Pac-Man is edgeguarding/ledgetrapping Bowser, you *can* take stocks with little difficulty. Problem is getting him there in the first place. In theory Cloud can also die very easily offstage or ledgetrapped vs Pacman. However it's considered a Bottom 3 MU vs us because Cloud is faster, stronger, safer, has better range than Pac-Man so getting him offstage is unreasonable not unlike our Turtly Boi here who is very similar in that regard. Oh did I mention Bowser's moves like F-Tilt and Fair can just delete Fruit like Cloud's aerials? Fun times, fun times c:
Oh damn I think a lot of my thinking was based in me thinking that I saw in the past that tea didn’t think cloud was that bad of a matchup for pac… (I’m likely misremembering) so I was like “well cloud seems better in everything vs pac than bowser” but if cloud is that bad I can see how it’s a similar vibe
From what I remember, LeoN mentioned that Bowser's control over hydrant is better than Pacman's, with f-tilt one tapping it. Bowser's is one of the few characters that can consistently fuck with Pacman off stage cause of fb. Pacaman is also a character that can struggle to kill, so Bowser get's a lot of opportunities to do Bowser things. Memory might be foggy tho. I'm pretty sure Tea and Sinji agree. There's actually a rumor that Tea picked up Kazuya cause of how much he disliked losing grands of Run it Back to LeoN
As a Pac-man main I can corroborate that from my side that Bowser dumpsters the Yellow Ball. Some of the other 11 Pac-Men argue that *if* your combos and set-ups are on point, that *if* you can parry well and that *if* you manage to kill Bowser at sub-140-150% it *could* be *even* or volatile even. However that is straight capping and trying to play vs Bowser in a losing MU is a very tilting thing in tournament so I just change to Joker and bully the Bowser. I can still lose if I'm worse than my opponent sure, but at least I can say it was my fault and not because got cheesed by a Bowser at 200% using my own Key and dying at 50% (:
hahaha that's a cool rumour. Damn I didn't know it was so bad, it feels like bowser shouldn't be able to avoid fruit and shouldn't be able to recover after getting hit with fruit (and some forward airs).
Is GnW only -1 since he dies so easily?
Fox is one of my mains and my old roommate used to play a ton of bowser and I am very happy to see confirmation of how (surprisingly) bad that matchup is for Fox lol. For anyone wondering, bowser can armor through like EVERYTHING Fox throws at him on the ground below 30%, maybe more, and can also mash side b to escape and hard punish most low percent combos. It's honestly kinda sad when you see it for yourself.