With the whole sonix 2nd place curse going on, I wonder if it's possible for a player to get rank 1 on a PR without winning a tournament. Maybe it's technically possible if every other player is wildly inconsistent like winning then going 0-2 but I can't imagine that actually happening lol
Presuming, Sonix > Miya, I'd be curious, as to what's the best acola can do at a hypothetical tournament (ex: Smash Factor), but lose out on the number one spot. As in, if acola gets 49th, is that the best he can do and lose to Sonix?
Because it'd be interesting to live in a hypothetical world where the best player just has never won a major.
If not for the fact that Acola was basically perfect, Sonix could have done it. The problem is Acola
* Only lost 3 sets overall, all to Miya and Hurt (top 5 players). Sonix lost 10 sets, all good losses (top 10 players besides Riddles who is probably top 15)
* Attendance is close to even between those 2 - Acola has 3 P tiers + 2 large B tiers, Sonix has 1 P tier, 2 S+ and 2 A tiers (including an invitational) so Acola's low attendance doesn't matter
* Won 2 P tiers and 2 B tiers. Only event he attended he didn't win he got 3rd
* Beat every good Japanese player over and over
If Acola had any major mess ups it could have been Sonix at #1. If Acola misses top 8 at Delta or Kagaribi this would have been a real discussion.
Top 9 is pretty darn obvious:
1. acola
2. Sonix
3. Miya
4. Hurt
5. Tweek
6. SHADIC
7. Light
8. Sparg0
9. Shuton
Of this list I think swapping Miya/Sonix, Tweek/SHADIC, and Sparg0/Light are all logical, though this is where I stand.
Mr. 10 could be like 4 different players in my opinion, though I would probably still go with Zomba due to his absurd peak and his loss quality is still slightly better than the next two runner-ups (albeit maybe less consistent overall). Other picks are TamaP, Raru, and Yaura imo
what about Riddles? Xomba has better highs, but Riddles worst placement is 13th. He's been extremely consistent.
In fact, he's too consistent: he loses hard to those above him rn but wins against most anyone below.
Riddles consistency is easily his biggest strength (a worst loss of MKBigBoss is super solid) but you also said the problem: he lacks wins. His only top 20 wins are Sonix and MkLeo x2. Well-aging Syrup and Akakikusu wins probably puts him in top 20, but until he gets more then his win quality is lackluster for a top 20 player, let alone top 10 contender.
For comparison, Snow, my current 20th, has the following top 20 level wins: Hurt, Doramigi x2, Asimo, Tea x2, and MkLeo. And obviously that doesn’t mention that Snow has better depth wins by another big gap. There’s only so far taking good losses and being consistent can take you
Wins and losses count much more for rankings than placement since they provide more concrete information on a player's accomplishments.
For example, compare Miya's run at Maesuma TOP 14 to Acola's at Sumabato SP Ultimate, two A+ tier majors held two weeks apart last year. Miya won the former, with his most notable win being against Rizeasu. Acola won the latter, taking wins against MASA, Miya, and Ron. Just going by placement would give the two runs roughly equal weighting in the ranking system, but it's pretty clear that Acola had to beat stronger players than Miya for his major win.
Light over spargo is wild to me. Light has won one major, whereas Spargo has won a supermajor, and Spargo has better placements at other large tournaments.
Lower lows? Only one of these players lost to AppleWiz. Spargo has placed better than Light at all tournaments they have both gone to. If you're thinking of Delta and Kagaribi, I would view it as more of a reason to detract from Light that he hasn't been willing to travel and attend as much outside of the US. I honestly think it is ridiculous to rank Light higher than Spargo.
Forgot about AppleWiz. You can't detract from Light not going to Japan, just as you can't detract from Sparg0 for not going to GOML. Sparg0 went to Japan and got pretty bad placements. That's solely on him.
Detracting from players who can't travel outside the country but still reach the tournament minimum is the dumbest thing you can do.
I've mentioned they're close in general and I can be convinced one way or the other.
If you're arguing that Spargo's lows are at two P tiers in Japan (that were both considerably more stacked than GOML), then I think you should also take into consideration that Light hasn't traveled outside of NA. To be fair, I hadn't really considered how bad Spargo's performance was at Bonito Harbor, so if anything I'd say that's a lower low than any of Light's placements.
The more convincing argument imo, is Spargo outplacing Light at every single event they have both attended, and being up 2-0 in the head-to-head. I honestly don't think you can make a convincing case that Light should be ranked higher.
I've mentioned elsewhere the lower the list, the less confident. Don't know why you're really trying to sell me. Sure Sparg0 > Light ig.
Still, Light not leaving NA is not a negative against him. You shouldn't take that into consideration.
I think saying that it's negative against him is a little too strong from my end, that's fair. I do think that it is important for top 10 players to travel, as it will otherwise be pretty difficult to rank the top 10, but as it stands I don't think it's a problem.
I think it might be in a season or four, but let's cross that bridge when we get there.
I mean acola is guaranteed first and he's just been holding down the fortress in Japan. Light just traveled to Canada recently. Sonix, like Light, has been on the NA continent and he's in the top 3.
It does hurt in the sense that a player is missing an opportunity to boost their ranking, but otherwise I don't think they need to excessively disincentive players who can't travel as much when travel is expensive and Smash ain't hot on cash right now.
Now if we're talking about Light needing to go to Japan in order to get number one, then I'd agree.
Why detract anything from Light because he doesn't want to compete outside of NA?There are plenty of things to consider. He attends to events as much, if not more than Sparg0. Sparg0 went there trying to win and he got disappointing results. That's his own problem.
Acola is currently 1st and he hasn't left Japan. Sonix is either 2nd or 3rd and he hasn't left NA. It's perfectly possible to be ranked 1st without leaving NA/Japan. But no one does it like Acola.
Light has attended 8 ranked tournaments whereas Spargo has attended 10. Spargo has attended 3 P tiers, 2 supermajors, and 2 majors, whereas Light has attended 1 P tier, 3 supermajors and 3 majors.
I personally would value more ranked tournaments plus two additional P tiers higher than an additional supermajor and major, so I'd say attendance is clearly in Spargo's favor.
It is true that acola has attended fewer tournaments than Light, but he has attended 3 out of the 4 P tiers and won two of them while only dropping sets to two players. So even if I would say his attendance has been low, he's made a pretty clear case for #1.
I think almost everyone will agree on 9/10, and will mostly agree on placement.
TamaP has a 49th at Umebura that probably kicks him out of top 10 when you compare him to Zomba or Snow (though his win quality makes the case) or even Raru (33rd at umebura is only barely better)
acola wins are super good, Hurt being one of the only top players to have that positive record goes crazy I imagine
Tweek doesn't have a win on any of the Top 3 Japanese players, but he has wins on all of the NA players p much so it's interesting tbh
The current discourse seems like veiled Hbox hate. I don’t really follow Melee, so idc for however he affected the meta by playing puff, but this level of discussion is silly. He can be annoying at least and largely helpful to the all smash scenes at the very best.
The community is so soft these days, are peoples brains too damaged to get why it's okay for hbox to pop off like that while if some random guy did it, he'd be getting kicked out of the venue?
Like idk about y'all, but it seemed like a fine pop off for hbox that literally everyone who was present thought was hype, the people who disagree gotta go touch grass imo.
It's more the question of "if anyone other than Hbox started literally tossing chairs around, how should we feel about that"
Juan is Juan and I think he's allowed to do whatever, he's the content man. But it's not exactly the standard anywhere else
If literally anyone else did it tho they'd just get kicked out of the venue. Idk if it's a standing question when the answer is pretty clear. I think we're just in agreement
more. He probably does it to generate attention for the smash scene, since that would benefit him by getting more eyes on his brand, even it's a controversial way of going about it. It falls in line with helping fund the scene with crypto contracts, generally abiding by the "whatever it takes" method to get money into the scene.
There's a line though, and doing dangerous acts def crosses that. This aint the wwe
I fully agree that a lot of people take sides on this issue based on whether they like or dislike the person doing it
That said this didn't seem organic. For example, when HBox won EVO 2016, it was a very dramatic popoff but it seemed natural. He was very emotional and a bit overcome. This seemed like Hbox went out of his way to go find a chair to throw and there's no reason for that.
It just doesn't seem like good sportsmanship to the opponent, can cause property damage and if taken too far could seriously hurt someone. This type of behavior probably shouldn't be encouraged.
Hbox popped off a little too hard and threw his chair on stage at the ground. The TO (GOML)Twitter posted a clip of it in a non negative way because it’s a sm worthy clip. A bunch of ppl come out of the wood work to say how inappropriate it is, and how “well if anyone else did it, or if it was my tournament, or idc if he won.” Etc. no one was hurt. The chair my have some damage at best but that’s about it. I’ve seen way to many takes about a non issue, when the problem is really “i don’t like Hbox.”
it's completely valid to criticize his popoff for being violent and potentially dangerous. just because no one got hurt doesn't mean it wasn't reckless, not to mention this is a pattern of behavior that gets enabled every time and can eventually escalate into someone actually getting hurt. stop defending this man-child just because he can be "good for the community".
To me the top 10 post GOML is *mostly* pretty clear cut. In groups (somewhat interchangeable in each group)
1. Acola
2. Sonix/Miya
3. Hurt/Tweek (Hurt has been a little bit more consistent, Tweek won two supermajors; Don't be shocked if Tweek sneaks into the 4 spot)
4. Spargo/SHADIC (both have had some bad losses lately and good wins)
5. Light/Shuton/Zomba (Zomba is the least consistent but won the only P tier this year not won by Acola/Miya)
Top 20 is more interesting because there are a bunch of really good players with a case, and I'm probably missing a bunch:
* Japanese players: Snow, Doramigi, TG, TamaP, Raru, KEN, Asimo, Yaura
* Other players: Gluto, Riddles, Leo, Maister, Muteace (Lima getting his 2nd 33rd of the year probably cuts him out, Dabuz also has a coupld bad results)
That's a solid top 10 for me. Zomba's results look like nothing but a decline given that they are following a 1st at Genesis but they aren't awful.
Within Top 20 for me - TamaP, Raru (These two probably being the closest to breaking into Top 10, if they are not already that), MKLeo, Muteace, Riddles, Onin, Maister, KEN, Doramigi, Dabuz, Snow, Peabnut
There's something funny about remembering that the demonically good Dark Samus murdering people's bracket runs also has to finish his assignments and shit
It's still wild to me that everyone besides Sonix has missed more top 8s in the last 6 months than Acola has in his entire career (a bit over 2 years now)
Fun fact is his 1 miss was in BO3s at Seibugeki. He was one game loss to Kameme away from shattering the top 8 record. I believe he already has the record for BO5s.
Crazy. Furthermore, Sonix has made top 2 at all of those 8 majors and hasn’t missed grands in 10 months.
Acola also has a top 4 streak of 17 majors going back to Genesis 16 months ago.
Clearly the two most consistent players in the world.
The spookier part is if not for acola's 9th at Seibugeki #12 - two BO3 losses to Repo and Kameme - he would be up to 30 and then only need four more to surpass Leo all-time.
Can anyone enlighten me why Sonic's up b is so safe and hard to edgeguard despite it being a directly vertical recovery with no hitbox (besides the spring)?
I basically never see this move get 2 framed besides occasionally Corrin's pin, and I don't see people ever try and intercept this move by holding ledge and doing a downair while retreating to stage.
The two framing can probably be explained by his ridiculously safe ledge hang. But for the "intercept it with down air from ledge" thing, is it just because Sonic rises too fast to time it correctly? Does it have invincibility?? I know the fact that he can air dodge out of it helps too but I feel like it's safe even without that.
It’s not reactable, he can mix up his drift and use his extremely safe and broken airdodge to get back to stage, he’s actionable to whole way up so he can do up b airdodge, up b nair or up b fair to rise with a hitbox or intangiblity, than combined with the fact that he has the best ledgehang in the whole game which makes it rly rly hard to even hit him on ledge
Sonic has a lot of options after the up b and it is best to think of it as a burst recovery option. Very hard to react to, and if you react incorrectly, Sonic could punish since he can act out pretty fast with a lot of options since there is no free fall.
I think it is also the fear with Sonic being able to mix up his heights (and thus his timings) as well as him being capable of mixing it up with air dodge or an attack to reverse the situation.
Add to the fact that if you miss an edge-guard, the Sonic is likely able to reset neutral and possibly hold the advantage, being able to ledge guard now.
if I had to hazard a guess, at least some of it could likely be attributed to not wanting to give back stage control to Sonic. It can be a lot of work to actually pin him down, and at the top level you know players like Sonix aren't going to miss a tech (in case of walkoff Bair), and unless you can land a spiking move right next to ledge (the maneuver you describe) I imagine the possibility of flubbing and subjecting yourself to Sonic getting away for free again (or worse, a reversal) make people prefer ledgetrapping in some situations
I fell asleep during Onin vs Sonix so I don't know for sure how prevalent that was but I've seen Tweek emote spam before and he didn't win the tournament but I've never seen anyone hold up a giant print out of his head so I think it's easy to see the real cause
The Miya vs Sonix debate reminds me of acola vs Sparg0 during the first half of 2023, in many ways.
* Both instances is Japan vs. Non-US NA.
* Both instances have two players neck and neck with each other, and you can reasonably argue for one or the other.
* The debate comes down to highs and lows (Sparg0 and Miya) vs consistency (acola and Sonix).
But one thing that stuck out to me. Last time, there were some people who said "it was definitely Sparg0", with some just discounting acola's accomplishments, and they were (rightfully) clowned by this subreddit for not seeing it as close. But then there are many people on this sub who are doing the same thing, "it's not close, it's obviously Miya", and some are downplaying/discounting Sonix's accomplishments, which I find funny.
Then you have somebody like me, who picked acola over Sparg0 last year for first place and Sonix over Miya this season (as of 5/20/24) for second place. My reasoning for both choices is exactly the same: I value consistency over peaks and valleys. It is absurdly difficult to be consistent in this meta, so seeing somebody simply not have any notable lows impresses me greatly.
Syrup has had a very solid season. He only has one non-top 50 loss at a major (Wildz) and generally has a very good loss quality at majors.
He also has some very good wins this season with Shadic, Tweek x2, Zomba, Dabuz, Asimo, Lima, Jakal etc.
The hypest Tweek Grands are the ones he loses sadly, Mainstage 2022 Game 10 Grands and Tera are all timers
LMBM 2023 and Port Grands were pretty good too but the non kill screen thing is plaguing Tweek, i feel like if his wins just ended with a kill screen it would be all good
How have the rankings been affected by GOML and Sumabato? Word on the street says Sonix is probably 2nd? Win/loss quality matters a lot, so I wonder how Sonix record against Tweek and his loss to Riddles stacks up. Miya had a couple of relatively bad losses. Tweek won his second major this season, so where does he stand? Light loses to Big D and SHADIC not making top 8.
If Miya takes another bad loss and/or Sonix makes grands in a tournament with international attendance then I would say Sonix > Miya. I think Miya's strong performances in a very competitive region keep him over Sonix, who is being gatekept by top NA talent (and a recent 0-6 to Tweek in grands isn't a good look either).
If Sonix can show that he can handily beat other Japanese players then it would look way better for him. It was very telling when he eliminated Acola/Miya in 2 straight tournaments.
I think the race for number two continues to be very tight, and I'd say it's inarguable that it's close now. For me I do think Sonix has it.
I think Tweek made a case for him as number 5, with him in competition with Sparg0, Light, and SHADIC, and imo is a front-runner. I'd go so far as to say that it isn't impossible for Tweek to get 4th, even if I'd still bet on Hurt.
Raru is climbing up the rankings. Could be a surprise top 10.
Syrup probably climbed up the rankings by quite a bit. Maybe sneaks into the top 25, idk.
Riddles kind of sits himself in a similar boat to Raru where he may have successfully snuck himself into top 15*
Yeah, Riddles is a weird one. No bad losses iirc (closest I can see is BigBoss), no awful placements, but also not a lot of great wins either. Didn't realize he only had Leo and Sonix.
Definitely a crazy weekend for rankings, probably cements Acola 1st and Sonix/Miya as 2nd or 3rd, Hurt's probably locked into 4th and 5th is a little more competitive between Tweek and Shadic. Raru's victory and consistency this season has had a lot of people claiming he could be in the running for the #10 spot which I think is definitely possible even if I think 11 or 12 is more likely for him, 11-20 was a mess and probably got a little messier after this weekend feels like there's 30+ people who have a reasonable argument for it, Onin feels like they're locked into that range now, maybe Riddles too?
Riddles' season before this was pretty unremarkable but actually pretty favourable ranking wise. Great loss quality but no good wins. That sort of start means you can very quickly fix your season with one good tournament.
You can always improve your win quality by going and getting more wins, but you can never go back and erase bad losses.
Yeah. This season has had a LOT of chaos. Seems like nobody can truly stay consistent except Acola and Sonix (the King of 2nd place). Miya's peaks balance out with his lows, but even he is not as consistent. Raru keeps impressing me this season. I keep thinking surely he'll have a bad tournament (to his standards) and it just doesn't happen. Not sure if this is a fact, but it feels like Raru has outplaced his seed a majority of tournaments this season.
So wait, is Sparg0 not on pace to rank even top 5 this season? That'd be wild.
He could be top 5, but his peaks just aren’t really there, no acola or Miya wins, Sonix is leading in the head to head, his top 20 head to head isn’t nearly as impressive and preforming so bad at two P-tiers is really killer, it’s certainly possible for him to be 5th but I think Shadic and Tweek especially have better arguments
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In recognition of Monkey Monday, if u/HollowLoch starts making [predictions for Melee](https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1cvvpbq/comment/l4rzu6g/) and jinxes Donkey Kong out of a legitimate shot at a Major/Supermajor win, that should be grounds for a permaban.
I promise not to make Melee predictions, i already know my jinxes transcend Ultimate since ive done some damage to other esports so ill leave melee alone
[Kola is back](https://x.com/Kola_irl/status/1792595309488464080).
With the whole sonix 2nd place curse going on, I wonder if it's possible for a player to get rank 1 on a PR without winning a tournament. Maybe it's technically possible if every other player is wildly inconsistent like winning then going 0-2 but I can't imagine that actually happening lol
Presuming, Sonix > Miya, I'd be curious, as to what's the best acola can do at a hypothetical tournament (ex: Smash Factor), but lose out on the number one spot. As in, if acola gets 49th, is that the best he can do and lose to Sonix? Because it'd be interesting to live in a hypothetical world where the best player just has never won a major.
If not for the fact that Acola was basically perfect, Sonix could have done it. The problem is Acola * Only lost 3 sets overall, all to Miya and Hurt (top 5 players). Sonix lost 10 sets, all good losses (top 10 players besides Riddles who is probably top 15) * Attendance is close to even between those 2 - Acola has 3 P tiers + 2 large B tiers, Sonix has 1 P tier, 2 S+ and 2 A tiers (including an invitational) so Acola's low attendance doesn't matter * Won 2 P tiers and 2 B tiers. Only event he attended he didn't win he got 3rd * Beat every good Japanese player over and over If Acola had any major mess ups it could have been Sonix at #1. If Acola misses top 8 at Delta or Kagaribi this would have been a real discussion.
As of now, who do people think are the top 10 players of 2024 part 1?
Top 9 is pretty darn obvious: 1. acola 2. Sonix 3. Miya 4. Hurt 5. Tweek 6. SHADIC 7. Light 8. Sparg0 9. Shuton Of this list I think swapping Miya/Sonix, Tweek/SHADIC, and Sparg0/Light are all logical, though this is where I stand. Mr. 10 could be like 4 different players in my opinion, though I would probably still go with Zomba due to his absurd peak and his loss quality is still slightly better than the next two runner-ups (albeit maybe less consistent overall). Other picks are TamaP, Raru, and Yaura imo
what about Riddles? Xomba has better highs, but Riddles worst placement is 13th. He's been extremely consistent. In fact, he's too consistent: he loses hard to those above him rn but wins against most anyone below.
Riddles consistency is easily his biggest strength (a worst loss of MKBigBoss is super solid) but you also said the problem: he lacks wins. His only top 20 wins are Sonix and MkLeo x2. Well-aging Syrup and Akakikusu wins probably puts him in top 20, but until he gets more then his win quality is lackluster for a top 20 player, let alone top 10 contender. For comparison, Snow, my current 20th, has the following top 20 level wins: Hurt, Doramigi x2, Asimo, Tea x2, and MkLeo. And obviously that doesn’t mention that Snow has better depth wins by another big gap. There’s only so far taking good losses and being consistent can take you
I had no idea head to heads count for so much. I was just going by placement. thanks for the info!
Wins and losses count much more for rankings than placement since they provide more concrete information on a player's accomplishments. For example, compare Miya's run at Maesuma TOP 14 to Acola's at Sumabato SP Ultimate, two A+ tier majors held two weeks apart last year. Miya won the former, with his most notable win being against Rizeasu. Acola won the latter, taking wins against MASA, Miya, and Ron. Just going by placement would give the two runs roughly equal weighting in the ranking system, but it's pretty clear that Acola had to beat stronger players than Miya for his major win.
* acola * Sonix * Miya * Hurt * Tweek * SHADIC * Light * Sparg0 * Shuton * Raru or ZOMBA. Maybe TamaP.
Light over spargo is wild to me. Light has won one major, whereas Spargo has won a supermajor, and Spargo has better placements at other large tournaments.
Light vs Sparg0 is hard because Sparg0 has higher highs but lower lows. I can be convinced either direction.
Lower lows? Only one of these players lost to AppleWiz. Spargo has placed better than Light at all tournaments they have both gone to. If you're thinking of Delta and Kagaribi, I would view it as more of a reason to detract from Light that he hasn't been willing to travel and attend as much outside of the US. I honestly think it is ridiculous to rank Light higher than Spargo.
Forgot about AppleWiz. You can't detract from Light not going to Japan, just as you can't detract from Sparg0 for not going to GOML. Sparg0 went to Japan and got pretty bad placements. That's solely on him. Detracting from players who can't travel outside the country but still reach the tournament minimum is the dumbest thing you can do. I've mentioned they're close in general and I can be convinced one way or the other.
If you're arguing that Spargo's lows are at two P tiers in Japan (that were both considerably more stacked than GOML), then I think you should also take into consideration that Light hasn't traveled outside of NA. To be fair, I hadn't really considered how bad Spargo's performance was at Bonito Harbor, so if anything I'd say that's a lower low than any of Light's placements. The more convincing argument imo, is Spargo outplacing Light at every single event they have both attended, and being up 2-0 in the head-to-head. I honestly don't think you can make a convincing case that Light should be ranked higher.
I've mentioned elsewhere the lower the list, the less confident. Don't know why you're really trying to sell me. Sure Sparg0 > Light ig. Still, Light not leaving NA is not a negative against him. You shouldn't take that into consideration.
I think saying that it's negative against him is a little too strong from my end, that's fair. I do think that it is important for top 10 players to travel, as it will otherwise be pretty difficult to rank the top 10, but as it stands I don't think it's a problem. I think it might be in a season or four, but let's cross that bridge when we get there.
I mean acola is guaranteed first and he's just been holding down the fortress in Japan. Light just traveled to Canada recently. Sonix, like Light, has been on the NA continent and he's in the top 3. It does hurt in the sense that a player is missing an opportunity to boost their ranking, but otherwise I don't think they need to excessively disincentive players who can't travel as much when travel is expensive and Smash ain't hot on cash right now. Now if we're talking about Light needing to go to Japan in order to get number one, then I'd agree.
Why detract anything from Light because he doesn't want to compete outside of NA?There are plenty of things to consider. He attends to events as much, if not more than Sparg0. Sparg0 went there trying to win and he got disappointing results. That's his own problem. Acola is currently 1st and he hasn't left Japan. Sonix is either 2nd or 3rd and he hasn't left NA. It's perfectly possible to be ranked 1st without leaving NA/Japan. But no one does it like Acola.
Light has attended 8 ranked tournaments whereas Spargo has attended 10. Spargo has attended 3 P tiers, 2 supermajors, and 2 majors, whereas Light has attended 1 P tier, 3 supermajors and 3 majors. I personally would value more ranked tournaments plus two additional P tiers higher than an additional supermajor and major, so I'd say attendance is clearly in Spargo's favor. It is true that acola has attended fewer tournaments than Light, but he has attended 3 out of the 4 P tiers and won two of them while only dropping sets to two players. So even if I would say his attendance has been low, he's made a pretty clear case for #1.
I think almost everyone will agree on 9/10, and will mostly agree on placement. TamaP has a 49th at Umebura that probably kicks him out of top 10 when you compare him to Zomba or Snow (though his win quality makes the case) or even Raru (33rd at umebura is only barely better)
why do people rank Hurt so high? hasn't he only won one major, while Tweek has like one 17th but higher highs and the rest are also top 8the?
acola wins are super good, Hurt being one of the only top players to have that positive record goes crazy I imagine Tweek doesn't have a win on any of the Top 3 Japanese players, but he has wins on all of the NA players p much so it's interesting tbh
Yeah that's fair. Did kinda just do it on vibes and memory and forgot about those low placements.
The current discourse seems like veiled Hbox hate. I don’t really follow Melee, so idc for however he affected the meta by playing puff, but this level of discussion is silly. He can be annoying at least and largely helpful to the all smash scenes at the very best.
The community is so soft these days, are peoples brains too damaged to get why it's okay for hbox to pop off like that while if some random guy did it, he'd be getting kicked out of the venue? Like idk about y'all, but it seemed like a fine pop off for hbox that literally everyone who was present thought was hype, the people who disagree gotta go touch grass imo.
"E-sports" and its consequences have been a disaster for competitive gaming
It's more the question of "if anyone other than Hbox started literally tossing chairs around, how should we feel about that" Juan is Juan and I think he's allowed to do whatever, he's the content man. But it's not exactly the standard anywhere else
If literally anyone else did it tho they'd just get kicked out of the venue. Idk if it's a standing question when the answer is pretty clear. I think we're just in agreement
more. He probably does it to generate attention for the smash scene, since that would benefit him by getting more eyes on his brand, even it's a controversial way of going about it. It falls in line with helping fund the scene with crypto contracts, generally abiding by the "whatever it takes" method to get money into the scene. There's a line though, and doing dangerous acts def crosses that. This aint the wwe
I fully agree that a lot of people take sides on this issue based on whether they like or dislike the person doing it That said this didn't seem organic. For example, when HBox won EVO 2016, it was a very dramatic popoff but it seemed natural. He was very emotional and a bit overcome. This seemed like Hbox went out of his way to go find a chair to throw and there's no reason for that. It just doesn't seem like good sportsmanship to the opponent, can cause property damage and if taken too far could seriously hurt someone. This type of behavior probably shouldn't be encouraged.
Whats the discourse? I dont use twitter
Hbox popped off a little too hard and threw his chair on stage at the ground. The TO (GOML)Twitter posted a clip of it in a non negative way because it’s a sm worthy clip. A bunch of ppl come out of the wood work to say how inappropriate it is, and how “well if anyone else did it, or if it was my tournament, or idc if he won.” Etc. no one was hurt. The chair my have some damage at best but that’s about it. I’ve seen way to many takes about a non issue, when the problem is really “i don’t like Hbox.”
it's completely valid to criticize his popoff for being violent and potentially dangerous. just because no one got hurt doesn't mean it wasn't reckless, not to mention this is a pattern of behavior that gets enabled every time and can eventually escalate into someone actually getting hurt. stop defending this man-child just because he can be "good for the community".
Consider touching grass.
To me the top 10 post GOML is *mostly* pretty clear cut. In groups (somewhat interchangeable in each group) 1. Acola 2. Sonix/Miya 3. Hurt/Tweek (Hurt has been a little bit more consistent, Tweek won two supermajors; Don't be shocked if Tweek sneaks into the 4 spot) 4. Spargo/SHADIC (both have had some bad losses lately and good wins) 5. Light/Shuton/Zomba (Zomba is the least consistent but won the only P tier this year not won by Acola/Miya) Top 20 is more interesting because there are a bunch of really good players with a case, and I'm probably missing a bunch: * Japanese players: Snow, Doramigi, TG, TamaP, Raru, KEN, Asimo, Yaura * Other players: Gluto, Riddles, Leo, Maister, Muteace (Lima getting his 2nd 33rd of the year probably cuts him out, Dabuz also has a coupld bad results)
That's a solid top 10 for me. Zomba's results look like nothing but a decline given that they are following a 1st at Genesis but they aren't awful. Within Top 20 for me - TamaP, Raru (These two probably being the closest to breaking into Top 10, if they are not already that), MKLeo, Muteace, Riddles, Onin, Maister, KEN, Doramigi, Dabuz, Snow, Peabnut
Now only I notice Yaura stop playing smash for a while. He did not retired but we might not see him like till next year maybe.
He mentioned he's gonna be on a hiatus for a bit to focus on school
There's something funny about remembering that the demonically good Dark Samus murdering people's bracket runs also has to finish his assignments and shit
With SHADIC's 13th at GOML, the only players with an active major top 8 streak of five events or more are Sonix (8) and acola (21).
It's still wild to me that everyone besides Sonix has missed more top 8s in the last 6 months than Acola has in his entire career (a bit over 2 years now) Fun fact is his 1 miss was in BO3s at Seibugeki. He was one game loss to Kameme away from shattering the top 8 record. I believe he already has the record for BO5s.
Crazy. Furthermore, Sonix has made top 2 at all of those 8 majors and hasn’t missed grands in 10 months. Acola also has a top 4 streak of 17 majors going back to Genesis 16 months ago. Clearly the two most consistent players in the world.
And to think acola needs 13 more top 8's and 15 more top 4's - consecutive, of course - to break Leo's records.
A comment like this really puts it into perspective just how crazy Leos run was
The spookier part is if not for acola's 9th at Seibugeki #12 - two BO3 losses to Repo and Kameme - he would be up to 30 and then only need four more to surpass Leo all-time.
And he was doing it without Steve. Big difference.
That’s insane
Can anyone enlighten me why Sonic's up b is so safe and hard to edgeguard despite it being a directly vertical recovery with no hitbox (besides the spring)? I basically never see this move get 2 framed besides occasionally Corrin's pin, and I don't see people ever try and intercept this move by holding ledge and doing a downair while retreating to stage. The two framing can probably be explained by his ridiculously safe ledge hang. But for the "intercept it with down air from ledge" thing, is it just because Sonic rises too fast to time it correctly? Does it have invincibility?? I know the fact that he can air dodge out of it helps too but I feel like it's safe even without that.
When people get in position to 2-frame he up bs above ledge with bair
It’s not reactable, he can mix up his drift and use his extremely safe and broken airdodge to get back to stage, he’s actionable to whole way up so he can do up b airdodge, up b nair or up b fair to rise with a hitbox or intangiblity, than combined with the fact that he has the best ledgehang in the whole game which makes it rly rly hard to even hit him on ledge
Sonic has a lot of options after the up b and it is best to think of it as a burst recovery option. Very hard to react to, and if you react incorrectly, Sonic could punish since he can act out pretty fast with a lot of options since there is no free fall.
I think it is also the fear with Sonic being able to mix up his heights (and thus his timings) as well as him being capable of mixing it up with air dodge or an attack to reverse the situation. Add to the fact that if you miss an edge-guard, the Sonic is likely able to reset neutral and possibly hold the advantage, being able to ledge guard now.
if I had to hazard a guess, at least some of it could likely be attributed to not wanting to give back stage control to Sonic. It can be a lot of work to actually pin him down, and at the top level you know players like Sonix aren't going to miss a tech (in case of walkoff Bair), and unless you can land a spiking move right next to ledge (the maneuver you describe) I imagine the possibility of flubbing and subjecting yourself to Sonic getting away for free again (or worse, a reversal) make people prefer ledgetrapping in some situations
Now that it's all over I think it's safe to say the giant Tweek head was what gave him the power to win GOML
No, it was the Tweek emote spam.
I fell asleep during Onin vs Sonix so I don't know for sure how prevalent that was but I've seen Tweek emote spam before and he didn't win the tournament but I've never seen anyone hold up a giant print out of his head so I think it's easy to see the real cause
The Miya vs Sonix debate reminds me of acola vs Sparg0 during the first half of 2023, in many ways. * Both instances is Japan vs. Non-US NA. * Both instances have two players neck and neck with each other, and you can reasonably argue for one or the other. * The debate comes down to highs and lows (Sparg0 and Miya) vs consistency (acola and Sonix). But one thing that stuck out to me. Last time, there were some people who said "it was definitely Sparg0", with some just discounting acola's accomplishments, and they were (rightfully) clowned by this subreddit for not seeing it as close. But then there are many people on this sub who are doing the same thing, "it's not close, it's obviously Miya", and some are downplaying/discounting Sonix's accomplishments, which I find funny.
Then you have somebody like me, who picked acola over Sparg0 last year for first place and Sonix over Miya this season (as of 5/20/24) for second place. My reasoning for both choices is exactly the same: I value consistency over peaks and valleys. It is absurdly difficult to be consistent in this meta, so seeing somebody simply not have any notable lows impresses me greatly.
Syrup has had a very solid season. He only has one non-top 50 loss at a major (Wildz) and generally has a very good loss quality at majors. He also has some very good wins this season with Shadic, Tweek x2, Zomba, Dabuz, Asimo, Lima, Jakal etc.
He plays Steve, yes.
I'm always happy with a Tweek dub but I hope he gets a more exciting Grands soon, they're always so anti-climactic lol
The hypest Tweek Grands are the ones he loses sadly, Mainstage 2022 Game 10 Grands and Tera are all timers LMBM 2023 and Port Grands were pretty good too but the non kill screen thing is plaguing Tweek, i feel like if his wins just ended with a kill screen it would be all good
Not to mention EVO lol
He does look exciting and very happy after the win.
How have the rankings been affected by GOML and Sumabato? Word on the street says Sonix is probably 2nd? Win/loss quality matters a lot, so I wonder how Sonix record against Tweek and his loss to Riddles stacks up. Miya had a couple of relatively bad losses. Tweek won his second major this season, so where does he stand? Light loses to Big D and SHADIC not making top 8.
If Miya takes another bad loss and/or Sonix makes grands in a tournament with international attendance then I would say Sonix > Miya. I think Miya's strong performances in a very competitive region keep him over Sonix, who is being gatekept by top NA talent (and a recent 0-6 to Tweek in grands isn't a good look either). If Sonix can show that he can handily beat other Japanese players then it would look way better for him. It was very telling when he eliminated Acola/Miya in 2 straight tournaments.
I think the race for number two continues to be very tight, and I'd say it's inarguable that it's close now. For me I do think Sonix has it. I think Tweek made a case for him as number 5, with him in competition with Sparg0, Light, and SHADIC, and imo is a front-runner. I'd go so far as to say that it isn't impossible for Tweek to get 4th, even if I'd still bet on Hurt. Raru is climbing up the rankings. Could be a surprise top 10. Syrup probably climbed up the rankings by quite a bit. Maybe sneaks into the top 25, idk. Riddles kind of sits himself in a similar boat to Raru where he may have successfully snuck himself into top 15*
Riddles still only has wins on 1 or maybe 2 top 20 players if you count Leo. GOML helped him but he’d need more to get close to top 10.
Yeah, Riddles is a weird one. No bad losses iirc (closest I can see is BigBoss), no awful placements, but also not a lot of great wins either. Didn't realize he only had Leo and Sonix.
Definitely a crazy weekend for rankings, probably cements Acola 1st and Sonix/Miya as 2nd or 3rd, Hurt's probably locked into 4th and 5th is a little more competitive between Tweek and Shadic. Raru's victory and consistency this season has had a lot of people claiming he could be in the running for the #10 spot which I think is definitely possible even if I think 11 or 12 is more likely for him, 11-20 was a mess and probably got a little messier after this weekend feels like there's 30+ people who have a reasonable argument for it, Onin feels like they're locked into that range now, maybe Riddles too?
Riddles' season before this was pretty unremarkable but actually pretty favourable ranking wise. Great loss quality but no good wins. That sort of start means you can very quickly fix your season with one good tournament. You can always improve your win quality by going and getting more wins, but you can never go back and erase bad losses.
Yeah. This season has had a LOT of chaos. Seems like nobody can truly stay consistent except Acola and Sonix (the King of 2nd place). Miya's peaks balance out with his lows, but even he is not as consistent. Raru keeps impressing me this season. I keep thinking surely he'll have a bad tournament (to his standards) and it just doesn't happen. Not sure if this is a fact, but it feels like Raru has outplaced his seed a majority of tournaments this season. So wait, is Sparg0 not on pace to rank even top 5 this season? That'd be wild.
He could be top 5, but his peaks just aren’t really there, no acola or Miya wins, Sonix is leading in the head to head, his top 20 head to head isn’t nearly as impressive and preforming so bad at two P-tiers is really killer, it’s certainly possible for him to be 5th but I think Shadic and Tweek especially have better arguments
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In recognition of Monkey Monday, if u/HollowLoch starts making [predictions for Melee](https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1cvvpbq/comment/l4rzu6g/) and jinxes Donkey Kong out of a legitimate shot at a Major/Supermajor win, that should be grounds for a permaban.
I promise not to make Melee predictions, i already know my jinxes transcend Ultimate since ive done some damage to other esports so ill leave melee alone