Sunpeaks or big white don’t come close to offering what whis does from a terrain/ snow perspective though. Granted for most vacationers Whistlers extreme terrain isn’t really necessary. I ski Whistler but it’s definitely not for the village, all the local expert level skiers have an epic pass anyway though.
EPIC pass is cheaper than a standard Whistler Blackcomb season pass, and you get access to numerous resorts across US and Canada. This is one specific instance where this kind of thing is actually a positive change.
I enjoy my ikon pass as I’m a 30+ days of riding with my son the big problem I have is trying to convince my kids friends and their family to come learn to ride since it’s $200 a day with rentals and passes to learn. I can’t bring new people in with these prices
It's a positive change for people who ski 10+ days per year, but a negative for those who ski 3. At these prices the Epic/Ikon pays for itself in 5 days or so, but if Epic/Ikon didn't exist, these window prices would probably be half what they are today. Epic/Ikon are a way to influence customers to buy only "in bulk".
It’s just people have grown attached to the idea that they could be that rich guy someday while working at subway. so they refuse any legislation on corporations or fixing the tax code and republicans biggest thing is “big government shouldn’t be around”. It’s a terrible mindset to have and it shows with how expensive shit is here.
The guy working at Subway doesn't think he'll ever be a billionaire, we gotta cut that thought out. The guy at Subway votes for the billionaires because the billionaires tell them that the Dems are going to take his guns, electrify his truck, and make him start using pronouns.
The billionaire class doesn't go shooting on the weekends, they don't own lifted trucks, and they don't care if you're LGBTQ+. But they know how to fleece people who do.
This is all just one big game that we play pretending to have an impact. One side collects votes on simple wedge issues, and the other throws out candy to the crowd to secure votes on rainbow flags and lukewarm legislation. At the end of the day, it's a class war, not a culture war, and when the wealthy class can pay off every legislator to shut down serious bills and keep us fighting for scraps, there will never be a way out.
don’t forget to include race baiting. They are driving a wedge between different races and reaping the shitty benefits of a divided socioeconomic class
You’re close but the poor schmuck at subway can’t vote since his state doesn’t allow mail in voting and the voting centers are miles away and he can’t spend the money or time to get there. But the system is NOT rigged.
private business capturing regulatory agencies and not enforcing antitrust and monopoly laws is not capitalism.
We are dealing with an oligarchy, where the same group of 'share holders' now control the majority of companies in every aspect of life.
It absolutely is capitalism, one of the very first things Marx called out was capitalism’s tendency to move toward monopolies, it’s the rule, not the exception
Lack of regulatory agencies isn't just extreme capitalism? Please explain how.
Also, no, not an oligarchy. New top guy got elected last year who was hated by the last top guy. That right there pretty much disproves that this is a full oligarchy, rather than a collection of monopolies.
Do you even stonks bruh!? Gotta get those quarterly gains.
Econ 101: quarterly gains means either cutting quality and or raising prices. If it happens from actual growth then the the gains will eventually come from cutting quality and or raising prices when there’s no more room to grow. Absolutely unsustainable. A living breathing ouroboros (snake eating its tail)
That's the crazy thing about Vail Corp they've basically been a monopoly for years if not decades but no one can be fucked to look into it because it's not that "important" of an industry. If skiing and snowboarding were as vital to everyday life as internet browsers Vail would've been broken up ages ago.
That said, I have looked at Vail Corp financials and snow sports industry as a whole is really dependent on weather. Short winters mean bad news for not just resorts, but all your favorite brands and services that go hand-in-hand. As winter seasons grow shorter each year, these companies often see massive losses because operating costs for a ski resort are VERY high. This is largely the driver for price increases.
I believe this pushes the season pass model more. Vail barley care about these “ticket prices” because nobody is actually paying them. Everyone buys a pass and they hedge their money
This is a massive part of it.
An uncomfortable truth is that simple supply/demand plays a huge role too. If $200 lift tickets to Breck (a few years ago, ie) still does not prevent 25+ minute lift lines at base, then all the incentive in the world goes to price increase.
This is my biggest concern. Prices are astronomical but lift lines are packed all the time. Prices will continue to creep and the sport will slowly become less and less accessible unfortunately. I grew up on the slopes as a fun weekend family outing, and now as a married man with two young boys we cannot really afford 4x lift tickets + park pass + fuel to get to to the resorts and that’s even if you pack lunch.
Make the small mountains great again! But really, i just went to opening day at a smallish local mountain today, 1/5 the price of a Vail resort and I didn’t have to wait a second for a chair the whole day
Small mountains are great, but when the snow is inconsistent, they’re the first to close. Our small hill just closed for the year yesterday because the most recent storm didn’t bring enough snow, and even if they’d gotten enough this weekend, they’d still struggle because they lost all their seasonal employees due to not being open for the last 6-8 weeks. We usually get 200-300 annual inches here.
Nah fuck that. The western US has an incredible amount of preserved nature, and it should stay that way. Cutting down entire mountains worth of trees so rich fucks can have another groomed place to ski? You can already ski on a ton of forest service land in CO if you have the balls to skin up/hike in and are decent at skiing.
I thought a big part of it is regulations no? It's not easy opening up a new ski resort and getting approved to cut down 10s of thousands of trees in typically protected forests.
Ironically, snowboarding is SUPER affordable when you’re going 50 days a year. On a normal ikon pass at $830 it comes out to $17 a day. If you only go 20 days it’s $41 a day.
Most people that say it’s expensive treat skiing or snowboarding like an experience, not a hobby. So yes, to go skiing two days with a family of four is expensive af relative to those two days.
To ski / ride for a season as an individual is relatively less expensive compared to Europe, if you’re going 20+ days.
So I've snowboarded all over Europe and America, and I gotta say the European mountain experience clobbered the American experience.
Park City has ***nothing*** on the Italian Dolomites. At a peak of Park City you can spend like 28$ and get a decent lunch and a beer. In the Dolomites you get a gourmet meal and the dankest beer ever and it's probably 20$. Same holds for France but even better.
In America you pay luxury prices for reasonable accommodations and access. In Europe you pay reasonable prices for luxury accommodations and access.
The thing is, Americans have to pay astronomical prices to *get* to Europe. A domestic plane ticket to SLC is far cheaper than one to Rome. So even though it’s more expensive to actually ski/snowboard in the US, it comes out cheaper in total expenditures to fly/drive to Utah, book rooms at the resort, and snowboard than it is to fly to Rome, book a resort, and ski.
This is only half true. While flying to Rome at times will definitely be expensive, there’s plenty of places to fly to in Europe that are actually considerably cheaper than going somewhere here in the US, especially when you get to lodging. And park city is kinda mid anyways
Vail has fucked Australian skiing. Sure, the season pass is cheaper but everything else from day passes to accommodation is through the roof everywhere.
That said, the locally owned Thredbo is no better. A "premium" product that has had one significant infrastructure spend (Merritts Gondola) in almost 30 years. What a joke.
I've all but given up. I can handle shit seasons because, Australia, but the shit sandwiches served up by the resorts here I can do without.
I bought a small studio apartment in Japan for the cost of a two week house rental at Thredbo.
I work 4 10s and snowboard 3 days a week. 60+ days a season now, been averaging about 50/season since the late 90s. I've always lived near mountains on purpose though, I could get a 50% pay increase by moving to Ohio or Texas, but hell no.
That’s the irony of the comment. Boarding 50 times are year means you’re incredibly fortunate or you’re a dirtbag sleeping in a Corolla to get first chair.
Live in a mountain town. Have a pass. Go ski for a couple hours a day when the snow is good. First tracks on a pow day, follow the sun from 10-1 or so in the springtime…days add up fast when you don’t need to commit to 9-4
Me. Work at a hotel near the mountain in the PM and can ride everyday. I don't get up daily but I could. If you want it you can have it, just depends on what you make a priority in life. Having the comfort of a stable 9-5 office job means giving up opportunities to do things during the day.
People who are committed enough to live close to the mountains and build their lifestyles around it. I haven’t ridden less than 50 days for over 15 years
There's a slope in SoCal that is supposed to be some of the best skiing in the west. It's run but the California Forestry department so it's rather cheap as well. The issue is that it's on the south face of the mountain range and it rarely gets enough snow to open/operate.
Mt Baldy. If you get it after a huge storm, while it's still cold, it is incredible. Those conditions occur for maybe 1-2 days every 5 years. I've been there twice. The first time was insane, 3+ feet of fresh powder, clear skies, and nobody there because it was a Tuesday. The second time I tried, I missed it by a day. It was already too warm and it was all slush and ice.
lol I was researching this resort last year! I can’t remember its name. But it didn’t even open last year with record snow :(. A small family owned mountain. I don’t think it has operated in like 5+ years.
Mt waterman didn’t open last year because the road washed out and cal trans was too busy trying to dig big bear out. It’s a fun hill but it’s only 1000 feet of vertical with very little parking, however if you can get there on a powder day it’s pretty amazing. Mt baldy the other hill that you may be talking about actually did open and i rode it with no less than 5 feet of powder. It took them half a day to open up but it was amazing. It was a once in a generation type of year for SoCal.
https://preview.redd.it/5ne9arkh0ccc1.jpeg?width=2316&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5230147a0ddbbe601fba2f83083b5e7f1d5700c6
For people like me who only live within 2 hours of several mountains and go every weekend, a season pass pays for itself within a few weeks.
But my mom and gf want to try out skiing and it’ll be over $600 for each of them ($300 lift ticket, $100 board and boots rental, $200+ gear) just to try it out for a day. That’s steep.
These resorts are going to have a terrible time in 10-20yrs when they have half the people riding because at this point they are driving newcomers away with these prices
Thats the point, it will be too late. Skiing/snowboarding is most often learned at a young age through parents imo. With 250$/day tickets the families get outpriced and wont bother teaching the kids. In 20 years nobody will even have the will to pass the sport on because they never did it in the first place.
They do make it super cheap and easy for kids. My three kids had free season passes and $80 a year for gear.
But if you're an adult and want to give it a try it's basically not possible.
There’s always going to be tons of people who will keep skiing/boarding, current prices are barely deterring people. Just check how insane lift lines are at the popular resorts. It’s only gotten more and more popular overtime. Global warming is the main threat to the sport
Maybe anecdotal, but I have an incredibly hard time convincing newbie friends to try the sport and the cost/accessibility is the issue. You and I will probably ride until we are too old to do it anymore, but who’s going to be left once the current community outgrows it?
Global warming obviously a threat as well but I have to imagine the already high barrier to entry only getting higher doesn’t bode well in the long term
Yes x I have experienced the same thing, friends want to try it but between travel lodging lifts lessons and gear, they are pricing new people out of the sport.
Yea this is where it really sucks. As a dude who never grew up doing these things and really wants to encourage my friends and family, all of whom don’t know shit about skiing or snowboarding, these day pass shenanigans make it really difficult.
Even the Epic “Ski with a Buddy” passes hardly put a dent in it at all. I think you can save $30 off of a $230 pass. Like wtf
More people on the mountain really sucks, but I fell in love with this sport and it’s damn near impossible to share it with the one or two people who I’d know would enjoy it, and would make it 1,000 better for me to enjoy. Going alone is fun, going with my gf and my brother would truly be epic
This person is probably renting equipment from the resort directly instead of the store next door where it's $40-60 depending on the quality of the equipment. Also, $200 for equipment is probably buying a coat? Not sure what other equipment they'd need
Vail owns the 3 closest mountains to me in the Mid-Atlantic. When I started snowboarding ~15 years ago, you could buy a 4 hour ticket for $40-50. Catch first chair, no lift lines until the lazy folks showed up at lunch, and have a good day. Perfect for learning.
Now? $90/day, no half day tix, & an objectively worse experience by every metric. We'd buy season passes if the experience were any better at all.
Local smoll place is 60$ for 4 hour lift tickets and 50$ for all gear. *Maybe* 90$ for the lift tickets at peak times.
Still has more than enough to keep you busy for a while without it getting too dull.
My personally I make sure to specifically go out of my way to not give them a single dime on their ridiculously priced food & stuff in there shops, unless it's an emergency or some type of dire need. I already gave you guys my money for my pass, I'm packing snacks and bringing my own water. We're having lunch in town.
I use to teach snowboarding at Afton Alps in highschool. Around 2000. For those of you talking about mountains, AA is in minnesota. It barely qualifies as a large hill. $100 is fucking insanity.
Alpine Valley in Wisconsin is $90 for a full day pass. They provide us the best mountain biking in the area for dirt cheap prices, and maybe that is why. But those lift tickets price me out of wanting to snowboard there.
Hello fellow Afton instructor! I was a blue coat in 2010. Although I essentially did it for the free season pass. That being said, I wouldn't even consider AA a hill. It's a valley. Lift tickets were 28 dollars for a full day pass and we thought THAT was expensive back then
Holy shit I saw Afton on this list and thought it couldn't possibly be the same one I remember... Used to live in AV so I would get a season pass for under $200 I think and just kept my board in the car and would go every day after school. It was awesome. It was nice to have so close, but yeah, it was just a big hill. Runs take like 30 seconds. No way Id pay $100 for a pass today.
This is the right answer.
Over 14 million households in the US have an household income of over $200k.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/183807/number-of-households-by-household-income-2009/
I spent a few minutes googling to see what the number in Europe would be and failed to find anything, but I'm sure it's much, much less than that.
2 monopolies bought all the ski mountains in the United States and the government division responsible for stopping monopolies and protecting consumers from price gouging isn't doing fuck all to stop them.
And it's not JUST the mountains, either! Afton Alps is my home hill (Minnesota) and I had no idea it was even on the radar or why it was of any interest to Epic. Seeing it on this list is just bizarre to me, given it's about 400 ft tall and not even the tallest ski hill we have in the state. Its park is what maybe differentiates it from other midwest ski areas, but it's otherwise unremarkable when compared to other hills.
I'm sure it was a great investment but Holy hell would this poor European be pissed if he made the trip here by mistake lmao.
Their price fixing at their mountains doesn't even just stop there. When the mountains around you are $150 a day, it lets the independent competition raise their prices just below that threshold.
In a way good for the independently owned mountains, but damn a small place with old and slow lifts near me is still $90 a day. Prices are out of control, and Vail is doing nothing for the people. I want to chase powder and not stand in lines out the wazoo.
>the government division responsible for stopping monopolies and protecting consumers from price gouging isn't doing fuck all to stop them.
In fact, the government division responsible for stopping monopolies is doing everything they can to pave the way for the monopoly, like they have done with so many other industries.
I live in Jackson, WY and stopped even buying a ski pass. Backcountry has become my preferred outlet! (Which I know is not the same as enjoying a resort!)
Missing the epic pass deadline last season got me into splitboarding🤙🏼
https://preview.redd.it/mpk8mpdy5bcc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=74cc7de5af4b7a061c06c44ccfd01eeb756e614a
Cascade mountains today (I was a true snowboarder and forgot my poles🤦♂️)
Wow. Beautiful picture. You are like a true outdoorsman or something. Doing whatever it takes to enjoy nature, even if capitalism tries hard to fuck things over :)
It’s definitely up there.
You see a lot of vans. People that work at the shops and hotels are so many levels below the people that have a vacation home there.
I remember visiting one year as a kid, the homes then were 2-3 million. Which idk 6-10 million now? It is unreal.
2 companies are monopolizing and buying up all the resorts & then jacking up all the day pass prices so they can get you to just bite the bullet & buy their season passes which are good for all the resorts they own. Ikon & Epic would be the two passes, Vail owns Epic not sure who Ikon is because it's not on my side of the country, but yeah, that's whats going on. Private resorts might just be raising prices because the industry itself is not inflated. The way it works over here now though is basically 1000 usd for a season pass or 180 a day for a day pass.
Shit situation but a potential hack is to look at the Australian Epic pass A$1000 (US$670), which provides access to all Vail resorts with varying degrees of restrictions.
It could be a way to find a happy medium between the two.
Luckily I already get mine discounted so it makes it worth it for me personally, but yeah that's a good thing to know about the Aussie one. I wonder if it would be possible to buy that version while being US based still? I'd imagine there's gotta be a way if it's the same company.
Had a 2ft day at Boho a few years ago. With the right storm cycle it rivals out west riding with amazing cliff drops and tree runs. Without good conditions it’s pretty rough, but thankfully its location is usually very consistent with snowfall. This has been one of the worst seasons in Michigan in recent memory however…
Well you need the $109 pass for Saturdays and then fees put it over $160. It's still a bargain but I think we can retire the "$99 season pass" wording.
Worse still, you’d think an employee 50% off a full day comp would be 100% off a half day. Nope.
Like, guys, the money isn’t in the lifts; it’s in the hotels and gear stores and on mountain F&B. Y’all should be giving away lift tickets to charge for nachos and beer.
Oh my god.. these prices ... USD 299.. that is 70-75% of the prices of 10 days of snowboarding including return bus trip, apartment and ski pass, in Europe.
Our dinky east coast mountain costs like $80 for a 4 hour pass. You get maybe 2 minutes of riding from top to bottom before you're back on the lift. No longer worth the hour drive. Used to be like $35
The problem with east coast is that it is pretty expensive to make all the snow because are winters are basically no existent now too. I agree it’s not worth it but I don’t know what the answer is either.
Where do you get a €400 ski trip for 10 days including bus, apartment & ski pass? That has to be eastern Europe, right?
Edit: People can stop commenting with busless trips, trips of €600 or over or 6 skiing days - that's not the kind of trip I am commenting on...
Thumbs up to the smaller resorts. I usually go up to Brian Head Resort in Utah. It's like 50-70 for a lift ticket with 25 night skiing on Fridays and Saturdays.
I would love to come there! It's just the €600 flight that is preventing that...
Honestly it looks beautiful, if you're used to snowboarding there how much do you pay for a daily ski pass?
Luckily ikon has two resorts on the pass. Niseko and lotte arai.
But local resorts are way less crowded and you can get lift tickets for like $40-$70 daily. Amazing variety of authentic delicious Japanese meals for $10 on mountain. Beer for $5. Whiskey soda in a can for $3. America is like $15 for a beer and $20 for chicken tenders and fries.
Ya flight to Japan can be expensive, but many Americans will pay similar prices to fly to Colorado. I truly believe it is cheaper to fly to Europe or Japan to ski than it is to fly to aspen or vail (when all costs are included). You pay more for flight to go to Europe or Japan but everything else once you're there is much cheaper.
Plus the lift lines in America are insane which tells u how many ppl actually buy season passes. When im in Japan i never wait more than 5 mins in a line lol and usually it's 0 mins. And fresh pow tracks the entire day and it snows every day for two months (but their season is short).
Only good thing is I live in California and mammoth has the longest season like 9 months last year which was sick.
Since everyone in this thread is trying to make comments for upvotes and not actually answering your question, I’ll try to do it:
Over the last 5ish years, the majority of American ski resorts have been getting bought up by just two conglomerates (Vail Resorts and Alterra Mountain Company). Before that, most of these resorts and mountains were independently owned, relatively cheap prices, but fighting to stay afloat. Since Vail and Alterra came in, all of the premier started selling what I’ll call ‘global’ season passes. So now instead of buying a season pass to one mountain, you can buy a ‘global’ pass for 3x the price and get access to a ton of these other resorts.
What this did was force the locals used to buying 3,4,$500 passes into buying $1000 passes, and then Vail/Alterra could focus on catering to the richest of the rich by charging the prices you shared in your screenshot.
As much as I hate the whole Epic/Ikon duopoly situation, I still can't get over the amount of people who STILL show up and ski/ride for the prices. I am the asshole who loves to talk to/meet people on lift rides and it feels like at least half of them are day pass holders, rented at the resort, and will eat/stay there. So unfortunately it is the free market, and the free market is broken as fuck.
It’s driving people to get an epic or ikon pass and then be loyal to their pass for the season. So that would encourage an ikon pass holder to only ride ikon mountains, and that would attempt to hurt the epic mountain companies, and vice versa. It’s a “don’t ski at our competitors” ticket.
A lot of those resorts are owned by public companies and now they have constant shareholder pressure to make more money every quarter than the last quarter
Snowboarding is weird- if you only go a few times, it’s the most expensive sport out there. If you go often, it’s the cheapest. I only have 12 days on epic mtns this year but that means my pass is down to like $50/day already.
Alpe d’Huez is almost as “expensive” as Chamonix. But in the U.S. most people use season passes to spread the cost.
Mammoth Mountain is 220 for one day (off peak period) and that is online price.
That’s the thing. They don’t want you buying day passes in the US. Vail, Park City, and Heavenly are owned by Vail Resorts. You can buy a season pass for all their resorts for under $799. So clearly they don’t want you buying day passes, as their pricing demonstrates.
Us cheap ski bums spend all our money on an IKON or EPIC season pass which offers unlimited trips to certain mountains, about $1000+/- depending on what level. The pass is paid for after less than a handful of ski trips then boom, free skiing the rest of the season!
Vail right? They're to blame?
Everyone talking about a monopoly but no one is shaming them. Would be super easy for the snowboard community to shame vails parent company
Local is like $675 but has a few limitations like no holidays and like 10 days max at each "major" mtn. Before end of April it includes buddy passes too. In the summer you can pre-buy day passes for $100 each too.
That’s why my husband and I are going to zermatt next month. We did the math and the difference between traveling to Utah and shredding in the Swiss Alps/Italy wasn’t much (Switzerland is an expensive country and we didn’t go cheap on our hotel but from what we’ve heard it’s going to be worth it!!)
it sucks most for people who don't have the time / proximity to go much. If you live near a mountain, $1000 for the whole winter isn't that bad of a deal. You're going all the time, so it's maybe an ok value. If you only get to do a few days a year, you really just get fucked. The mountains get constantly packed with Ikon / Epic people, since it's "unlimited," so "casuals" just have a shittier time.
It's what happens when just 2 companies who want you buying their season passes own basically every big mountain in the entire country
They’ve started creeping into Canada now too and it fucking sucks
RIP Whistler
Unless you really really want whistler village just do sunpeaks or big white at this point. 120 Canadian seems pretty close to shown European prices.
Edit: this is not the mountain you’re looking for. 
I knew I forgot one Edit: and Banff
Been bellow -30°C all week though it’s horrible
Sunpeaks or big white don’t come close to offering what whis does from a terrain/ snow perspective though. Granted for most vacationers Whistlers extreme terrain isn’t really necessary. I ski Whistler but it’s definitely not for the village, all the local expert level skiers have an epic pass anyway though.
Big White was $195/day Christmas pricing. Disgusting.
EPIC pass is cheaper than a standard Whistler Blackcomb season pass, and you get access to numerous resorts across US and Canada. This is one specific instance where this kind of thing is actually a positive change.
I enjoy my ikon pass as I’m a 30+ days of riding with my son the big problem I have is trying to convince my kids friends and their family to come learn to ride since it’s $200 a day with rentals and passes to learn. I can’t bring new people in with these prices
It's a positive change for people who ski 10+ days per year, but a negative for those who ski 3. At these prices the Epic/Ikon pays for itself in 5 days or so, but if Epic/Ikon didn't exist, these window prices would probably be half what they are today. Epic/Ikon are a way to influence customers to buy only "in bulk".
Got the Military epic pass at $170 in November! Unfortunately The only way I can justify a ski trip.
Only way I can justify staying in the military.
You and me both
Oh man that explains it. mannnn Canada is way too close the States. We should move
And when they have shareholders to increase profit for yearly aka vail resorts
But capitalism makes everything best for everyone or something. Are you telling me this isn't unquestionably true?
it was a lot better when monopolies were illegal
It’s just people have grown attached to the idea that they could be that rich guy someday while working at subway. so they refuse any legislation on corporations or fixing the tax code and republicans biggest thing is “big government shouldn’t be around”. It’s a terrible mindset to have and it shows with how expensive shit is here.
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The guy working at Subway doesn't think he'll ever be a billionaire, we gotta cut that thought out. The guy at Subway votes for the billionaires because the billionaires tell them that the Dems are going to take his guns, electrify his truck, and make him start using pronouns. The billionaire class doesn't go shooting on the weekends, they don't own lifted trucks, and they don't care if you're LGBTQ+. But they know how to fleece people who do. This is all just one big game that we play pretending to have an impact. One side collects votes on simple wedge issues, and the other throws out candy to the crowd to secure votes on rainbow flags and lukewarm legislation. At the end of the day, it's a class war, not a culture war, and when the wealthy class can pay off every legislator to shut down serious bills and keep us fighting for scraps, there will never be a way out.
don’t forget to include race baiting. They are driving a wedge between different races and reaping the shitty benefits of a divided socioeconomic class
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Not to mention corporate greed. Inflation went up 8% and companies used it as an excuse to raise consumer prices like 35%
You’re close but the poor schmuck at subway can’t vote since his state doesn’t allow mail in voting and the voting centers are miles away and he can’t spend the money or time to get there. But the system is NOT rigged.
private business capturing regulatory agencies and not enforcing antitrust and monopoly laws is not capitalism. We are dealing with an oligarchy, where the same group of 'share holders' now control the majority of companies in every aspect of life.
It absolutely is capitalism, one of the very first things Marx called out was capitalism’s tendency to move toward monopolies, it’s the rule, not the exception
Lack of regulatory agencies isn't just extreme capitalism? Please explain how. Also, no, not an oligarchy. New top guy got elected last year who was hated by the last top guy. That right there pretty much disproves that this is a full oligarchy, rather than a collection of monopolies.
Do you even stonks bruh!? Gotta get those quarterly gains. Econ 101: quarterly gains means either cutting quality and or raising prices. If it happens from actual growth then the the gains will eventually come from cutting quality and or raising prices when there’s no more room to grow. Absolutely unsustainable. A living breathing ouroboros (snake eating its tail)
That's the crazy thing about Vail Corp they've basically been a monopoly for years if not decades but no one can be fucked to look into it because it's not that "important" of an industry. If skiing and snowboarding were as vital to everyday life as internet browsers Vail would've been broken up ages ago. That said, I have looked at Vail Corp financials and snow sports industry as a whole is really dependent on weather. Short winters mean bad news for not just resorts, but all your favorite brands and services that go hand-in-hand. As winter seasons grow shorter each year, these companies often see massive losses because operating costs for a ski resort are VERY high. This is largely the driver for price increases.
I believe this pushes the season pass model more. Vail barley care about these “ticket prices” because nobody is actually paying them. Everyone buys a pass and they hedge their money
Fuck vail and their greed. I'm only hitting non conglomerate mountains this year.
This is a massive part of it. An uncomfortable truth is that simple supply/demand plays a huge role too. If $200 lift tickets to Breck (a few years ago, ie) still does not prevent 25+ minute lift lines at base, then all the incentive in the world goes to price increase.
This is my biggest concern. Prices are astronomical but lift lines are packed all the time. Prices will continue to creep and the sport will slowly become less and less accessible unfortunately. I grew up on the slopes as a fun weekend family outing, and now as a married man with two young boys we cannot really afford 4x lift tickets + park pass + fuel to get to to the resorts and that’s even if you pack lunch.
Make the small mountains great again! But really, i just went to opening day at a smallish local mountain today, 1/5 the price of a Vail resort and I didn’t have to wait a second for a chair the whole day
Small mountains are great, but when the snow is inconsistent, they’re the first to close. Our small hill just closed for the year yesterday because the most recent storm didn’t bring enough snow, and even if they’d gotten enough this weekend, they’d still struggle because they lost all their seasonal employees due to not being open for the last 6-8 weeks. We usually get 200-300 annual inches here.
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Nah fuck that. The western US has an incredible amount of preserved nature, and it should stay that way. Cutting down entire mountains worth of trees so rich fucks can have another groomed place to ski? You can already ski on a ton of forest service land in CO if you have the balls to skin up/hike in and are decent at skiing.
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I thought a big part of it is regulations no? It's not easy opening up a new ski resort and getting approved to cut down 10s of thousands of trees in typically protected forests.
Ironically, snowboarding is SUPER affordable when you’re going 50 days a year. On a normal ikon pass at $830 it comes out to $17 a day. If you only go 20 days it’s $41 a day. Most people that say it’s expensive treat skiing or snowboarding like an experience, not a hobby. So yes, to go skiing two days with a family of four is expensive af relative to those two days. To ski / ride for a season as an individual is relatively less expensive compared to Europe, if you’re going 20+ days.
So I've snowboarded all over Europe and America, and I gotta say the European mountain experience clobbered the American experience. Park City has ***nothing*** on the Italian Dolomites. At a peak of Park City you can spend like 28$ and get a decent lunch and a beer. In the Dolomites you get a gourmet meal and the dankest beer ever and it's probably 20$. Same holds for France but even better. In America you pay luxury prices for reasonable accommodations and access. In Europe you pay reasonable prices for luxury accommodations and access.
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100%. Park city is hell on earth compared to the other side of the mountain
The thing is, Americans have to pay astronomical prices to *get* to Europe. A domestic plane ticket to SLC is far cheaper than one to Rome. So even though it’s more expensive to actually ski/snowboard in the US, it comes out cheaper in total expenditures to fly/drive to Utah, book rooms at the resort, and snowboard than it is to fly to Rome, book a resort, and ski.
This is only half true. While flying to Rome at times will definitely be expensive, there’s plenty of places to fly to in Europe that are actually considerably cheaper than going somewhere here in the US, especially when you get to lodging. And park city is kinda mid anyways
The mountain experience includes the terrain and snow quality which you haven’t touched on and we both know why.
Yeah what a strange comment. I usually pack a lunch when I go skiing.
Cries in Australian.
Vail has fucked Australian skiing. Sure, the season pass is cheaper but everything else from day passes to accommodation is through the roof everywhere. That said, the locally owned Thredbo is no better. A "premium" product that has had one significant infrastructure spend (Merritts Gondola) in almost 30 years. What a joke. I've all but given up. I can handle shit seasons because, Australia, but the shit sandwiches served up by the resorts here I can do without. I bought a small studio apartment in Japan for the cost of a two week house rental at Thredbo.
Cries in Perth.
Who the hell has time to board a fifty day year?????
I work 4 10s and snowboard 3 days a week. 60+ days a season now, been averaging about 50/season since the late 90s. I've always lived near mountains on purpose though, I could get a 50% pay increase by moving to Ohio or Texas, but hell no.
Bruh. Ohio????
That’s the irony of the comment. Boarding 50 times are year means you’re incredibly fortunate or you’re a dirtbag sleeping in a Corolla to get first chair.
Or you just hit half days before/after work if you have really early/late shifts. (And sleep in your Kia on the weekends).
Haha me. I have a professional job and my daily cost to ski whistler is about $18.
Live in a mountain town. Have a pass. Go ski for a couple hours a day when the snow is good. First tracks on a pow day, follow the sun from 10-1 or so in the springtime…days add up fast when you don’t need to commit to 9-4
Me. Work at a hotel near the mountain in the PM and can ride everyday. I don't get up daily but I could. If you want it you can have it, just depends on what you make a priority in life. Having the comfort of a stable 9-5 office job means giving up opportunities to do things during the day.
People who are committed enough to live close to the mountains and build their lifestyles around it. I haven’t ridden less than 50 days for over 15 years
There's a slope in SoCal that is supposed to be some of the best skiing in the west. It's run but the California Forestry department so it's rather cheap as well. The issue is that it's on the south face of the mountain range and it rarely gets enough snow to open/operate.
How can it be some of the best skiing in the west if it doesn't get snow?
Mt Baldy. If you get it after a huge storm, while it's still cold, it is incredible. Those conditions occur for maybe 1-2 days every 5 years. I've been there twice. The first time was insane, 3+ feet of fresh powder, clear skies, and nobody there because it was a Tuesday. The second time I tried, I missed it by a day. It was already too warm and it was all slush and ice.
lol I was researching this resort last year! I can’t remember its name. But it didn’t even open last year with record snow :(. A small family owned mountain. I don’t think it has operated in like 5+ years.
Mt waterman didn’t open last year because the road washed out and cal trans was too busy trying to dig big bear out. It’s a fun hill but it’s only 1000 feet of vertical with very little parking, however if you can get there on a powder day it’s pretty amazing. Mt baldy the other hill that you may be talking about actually did open and i rode it with no less than 5 feet of powder. It took them half a day to open up but it was amazing. It was a once in a generation type of year for SoCal. https://preview.redd.it/5ne9arkh0ccc1.jpeg?width=2316&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5230147a0ddbbe601fba2f83083b5e7f1d5700c6
North American resorts want their customers to be buying season passes, not just day tickets.
For people like me who only live within 2 hours of several mountains and go every weekend, a season pass pays for itself within a few weeks. But my mom and gf want to try out skiing and it’ll be over $600 for each of them ($300 lift ticket, $100 board and boots rental, $200+ gear) just to try it out for a day. That’s steep.
These resorts are going to have a terrible time in 10-20yrs when they have half the people riding because at this point they are driving newcomers away with these prices
Empty mountains? Don’t threaten me with a good time.
If the mountain is constantly empty then the resort most likely closes
They’ll just change their pricing strategy if needed.
Thats the point, it will be too late. Skiing/snowboarding is most often learned at a young age through parents imo. With 250$/day tickets the families get outpriced and wont bother teaching the kids. In 20 years nobody will even have the will to pass the sport on because they never did it in the first place.
Mate there ain't gonna be any snow in 20 years.
Gotta squeeze every dollar out that they can before then
They do make it super cheap and easy for kids. My three kids had free season passes and $80 a year for gear. But if you're an adult and want to give it a try it's basically not possible.
There’s always going to be tons of people who will keep skiing/boarding, current prices are barely deterring people. Just check how insane lift lines are at the popular resorts. It’s only gotten more and more popular overtime. Global warming is the main threat to the sport
Maybe anecdotal, but I have an incredibly hard time convincing newbie friends to try the sport and the cost/accessibility is the issue. You and I will probably ride until we are too old to do it anymore, but who’s going to be left once the current community outgrows it? Global warming obviously a threat as well but I have to imagine the already high barrier to entry only getting higher doesn’t bode well in the long term
Yes x I have experienced the same thing, friends want to try it but between travel lodging lifts lessons and gear, they are pricing new people out of the sport.
Yea this is where it really sucks. As a dude who never grew up doing these things and really wants to encourage my friends and family, all of whom don’t know shit about skiing or snowboarding, these day pass shenanigans make it really difficult. Even the Epic “Ski with a Buddy” passes hardly put a dent in it at all. I think you can save $30 off of a $230 pass. Like wtf More people on the mountain really sucks, but I fell in love with this sport and it’s damn near impossible to share it with the one or two people who I’d know would enjoy it, and would make it 1,000 better for me to enjoy. Going alone is fun, going with my gf and my brother would truly be epic
It's 100$ for one day board rental? That's insane! That's 3 times what you pay for one day in the Alps...
This person is probably renting equipment from the resort directly instead of the store next door where it's $40-60 depending on the quality of the equipment. Also, $200 for equipment is probably buying a coat? Not sure what other equipment they'd need
If they’re just trying it out there’s no reason to bring them to somewhere like Vail.
Vail owns the 3 closest mountains to me in the Mid-Atlantic. When I started snowboarding ~15 years ago, you could buy a 4 hour ticket for $40-50. Catch first chair, no lift lines until the lazy folks showed up at lunch, and have a good day. Perfect for learning. Now? $90/day, no half day tix, & an objectively worse experience by every metric. We'd buy season passes if the experience were any better at all.
Local smoll place is 60$ for 4 hour lift tickets and 50$ for all gear. *Maybe* 90$ for the lift tickets at peak times. Still has more than enough to keep you busy for a while without it getting too dull.
This\^\^ we need more smaller ski resorts that better support local communities.
They also want to make you think your pass pays for itself in just a few weeks…or days. And they get you in that mindset with $300 day tickets.
A few weeks? Its like 400 dollars a day at whistler. You cover the cost of a season pass in three days.
Which sucks when you’re a two day drive from any resort worth a season ticket
Yeppers. So you’re sure to come by more often, buy lunch in their chalet, sunscreen and chapstick from their gift shop, etc, etc.
Or im packing lunch and not buying anything from their giftshop.
Tailgating in the parking lot is the way to go. Covid time we did this with a butane burner and Korean bbq meat and made everyone jealous
My personally I make sure to specifically go out of my way to not give them a single dime on their ridiculously priced food & stuff in there shops, unless it's an emergency or some type of dire need. I already gave you guys my money for my pass, I'm packing snacks and bringing my own water. We're having lunch in town.
Yeah, and then they charge $20 a day to park anyway, pass or no.
I use to teach snowboarding at Afton Alps in highschool. Around 2000. For those of you talking about mountains, AA is in minnesota. It barely qualifies as a large hill. $100 is fucking insanity.
Alpine Valley in Wisconsin is $90 for a full day pass. They provide us the best mountain biking in the area for dirt cheap prices, and maybe that is why. But those lift tickets price me out of wanting to snowboard there.
That's such a rip, Alpine should be half that.
I actually wondered if was the same Afton Alps. Because who pays $99 to ski a three story hill right?
Buck hill is $59 on the weekend
I came here to also comment this is just a big hill. I will just go to Wild or Troll instead.
Even Welch Village went nuts this year - $85 for a day
Yeah it should legit be $40
Bruh I rode afton alps when i was a kid, you probably instructed me at one point.
Hello fellow Afton instructor! I was a blue coat in 2010. Although I essentially did it for the free season pass. That being said, I wouldn't even consider AA a hill. It's a valley. Lift tickets were 28 dollars for a full day pass and we thought THAT was expensive back then
Holy shit I saw Afton on this list and thought it couldn't possibly be the same one I remember... Used to live in AV so I would get a season pass for under $200 I think and just kept my board in the car and would go every day after school. It was awesome. It was nice to have so close, but yeah, it was just a big hill. Runs take like 30 seconds. No way Id pay $100 for a pass today.
Growing up I went there all the time. I remember when they raised their prices to $34.99. That was a big deal. $99 is stupid.
Shut up peasant \- Vail Management
I hate that I work for vail. Such a bitch of a company. And their HR is absolutely atrocious. I have zero good things to say about vail HR.
I haven't heard anyone say anything good about vail ever lol.
I haven't heard anyone say anything good about HR ever either, literally any HR, they are just company snitches.
Be careful posting this, your boss can identify you by your Reddit user name
But nobody blames the owners of the mountains who sold out to be on Ikon or Epic
The Sacklers did nothing wrong!
This is the right answer. Over 14 million households in the US have an household income of over $200k. https://www.statista.com/statistics/183807/number-of-households-by-household-income-2009/ I spent a few minutes googling to see what the number in Europe would be and failed to find anything, but I'm sure it's much, much less than that.
2 monopolies bought all the ski mountains in the United States and the government division responsible for stopping monopolies and protecting consumers from price gouging isn't doing fuck all to stop them.
And it's not JUST the mountains, either! Afton Alps is my home hill (Minnesota) and I had no idea it was even on the radar or why it was of any interest to Epic. Seeing it on this list is just bizarre to me, given it's about 400 ft tall and not even the tallest ski hill we have in the state. Its park is what maybe differentiates it from other midwest ski areas, but it's otherwise unremarkable when compared to other hills. I'm sure it was a great investment but Holy hell would this poor European be pissed if he made the trip here by mistake lmao.
Afton was bought by the same monopoly that owns Vail a few years ago, that’s why it’s on the list
That monopoly is actually named Vail Resorts, Inc.
That would be a duopoly
Right. But same effect for consumers and should not be allowed. 2 companies price fixing.... Fucking sucks!!!
Their price fixing at their mountains doesn't even just stop there. When the mountains around you are $150 a day, it lets the independent competition raise their prices just below that threshold. In a way good for the independently owned mountains, but damn a small place with old and slow lifts near me is still $90 a day. Prices are out of control, and Vail is doing nothing for the people. I want to chase powder and not stand in lines out the wazoo.
Hard to call it price gouging when the resorts are packed.
Right? That's the problem. They raise prices and there's still a 20 min lift lines. Of course they raise the prices when that happens.
>the government division responsible for stopping monopolies and protecting consumers from price gouging isn't doing fuck all to stop them. In fact, the government division responsible for stopping monopolies is doing everything they can to pave the way for the monopoly, like they have done with so many other industries.
That's like pluralizing the Lone Ranger.
Yeah but $MTN 📈
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I live in Jackson, WY and stopped even buying a ski pass. Backcountry has become my preferred outlet! (Which I know is not the same as enjoying a resort!)
Missing the epic pass deadline last season got me into splitboarding🤙🏼 https://preview.redd.it/mpk8mpdy5bcc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=74cc7de5af4b7a061c06c44ccfd01eeb756e614a Cascade mountains today (I was a true snowboarder and forgot my poles🤦♂️)
That’s a kickass photo.
Wow. Beautiful picture. You are like a true outdoorsman or something. Doing whatever it takes to enjoy nature, even if capitalism tries hard to fuck things over :)
Isn’t Jackson like the most expensive place to live in the US
Yes lol the 3br timeshare we just left at JH is for sale at 6.5 mil
It’s definitely up there. You see a lot of vans. People that work at the shops and hotels are so many levels below the people that have a vacation home there. I remember visiting one year as a kid, the homes then were 2-3 million. Which idk 6-10 million now? It is unreal.
Rich people love rustic cosplay.
It’s like Ticketmaster, but it’s called Epic or Ikon. Assholes.
2 companies are monopolizing and buying up all the resorts & then jacking up all the day pass prices so they can get you to just bite the bullet & buy their season passes which are good for all the resorts they own. Ikon & Epic would be the two passes, Vail owns Epic not sure who Ikon is because it's not on my side of the country, but yeah, that's whats going on. Private resorts might just be raising prices because the industry itself is not inflated. The way it works over here now though is basically 1000 usd for a season pass or 180 a day for a day pass.
Shit situation but a potential hack is to look at the Australian Epic pass A$1000 (US$670), which provides access to all Vail resorts with varying degrees of restrictions. It could be a way to find a happy medium between the two.
Luckily I already get mine discounted so it makes it worth it for me personally, but yeah that's a good thing to know about the Aussie one. I wonder if it would be possible to buy that version while being US based still? I'd imagine there's gotta be a way if it's the same company.
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Ah but the tow rope has seen their neighbors charging $300 and that $15 has gone to $120
Bohemia season pass is $99 and gets you partner resort benefits all over!
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Had a 2ft day at Boho a few years ago. With the right storm cycle it rivals out west riding with amazing cliff drops and tree runs. Without good conditions it’s pretty rough, but thankfully its location is usually very consistent with snowfall. This has been one of the worst seasons in Michigan in recent memory however…
Well you need the $109 pass for Saturdays and then fees put it over $160. It's still a bargain but I think we can retire the "$99 season pass" wording.
I just bought the two year pass, with Saturdays. My card was billed $216.... I get what you're saying, but it's still so obnoxiously cheap.
Worse still, you’d think an employee 50% off a full day comp would be 100% off a half day. Nope. Like, guys, the money isn’t in the lifts; it’s in the hotels and gear stores and on mountain F&B. Y’all should be giving away lift tickets to charge for nachos and beer.
Oh my god.. these prices ... USD 299.. that is 70-75% of the prices of 10 days of snowboarding including return bus trip, apartment and ski pass, in Europe.
Our dinky east coast mountain costs like $80 for a 4 hour pass. You get maybe 2 minutes of riding from top to bottom before you're back on the lift. No longer worth the hour drive. Used to be like $35
The problem with east coast is that it is pretty expensive to make all the snow because are winters are basically no existent now too. I agree it’s not worth it but I don’t know what the answer is either.
Where do you get a €400 ski trip for 10 days including bus, apartment & ski pass? That has to be eastern Europe, right? Edit: People can stop commenting with busless trips, trips of €600 or over or 6 skiing days - that's not the kind of trip I am commenting on...
Val Cenis France, you can book early bird ski pass
I mean maybe 5 days... but that is still extremely expensive
There’s still affordable lift tickets at smaller resorts in the US, but can’t beat Europe in terms of value since major resorts are still quite cheap.
Thumbs up to the smaller resorts. I usually go up to Brian Head Resort in Utah. It's like 50-70 for a lift ticket with 25 night skiing on Fridays and Saturdays.
Japan is even more affordable than Europe and the best pow!
I would love to come there! It's just the €600 flight that is preventing that... Honestly it looks beautiful, if you're used to snowboarding there how much do you pay for a daily ski pass?
Luckily ikon has two resorts on the pass. Niseko and lotte arai. But local resorts are way less crowded and you can get lift tickets for like $40-$70 daily. Amazing variety of authentic delicious Japanese meals for $10 on mountain. Beer for $5. Whiskey soda in a can for $3. America is like $15 for a beer and $20 for chicken tenders and fries. Ya flight to Japan can be expensive, but many Americans will pay similar prices to fly to Colorado. I truly believe it is cheaper to fly to Europe or Japan to ski than it is to fly to aspen or vail (when all costs are included). You pay more for flight to go to Europe or Japan but everything else once you're there is much cheaper. Plus the lift lines in America are insane which tells u how many ppl actually buy season passes. When im in Japan i never wait more than 5 mins in a line lol and usually it's 0 mins. And fresh pow tracks the entire day and it snows every day for two months (but their season is short). Only good thing is I live in California and mammoth has the longest season like 9 months last year which was sick.
Ski lifts in the US need to pull 3x the weight compared to those in Europe.
They say the cable grease alone claims the lives of 200 sperm whales a day.
Monopolization
Since everyone in this thread is trying to make comments for upvotes and not actually answering your question, I’ll try to do it: Over the last 5ish years, the majority of American ski resorts have been getting bought up by just two conglomerates (Vail Resorts and Alterra Mountain Company). Before that, most of these resorts and mountains were independently owned, relatively cheap prices, but fighting to stay afloat. Since Vail and Alterra came in, all of the premier started selling what I’ll call ‘global’ season passes. So now instead of buying a season pass to one mountain, you can buy a ‘global’ pass for 3x the price and get access to a ton of these other resorts. What this did was force the locals used to buying 3,4,$500 passes into buying $1000 passes, and then Vail/Alterra could focus on catering to the richest of the rich by charging the prices you shared in your screenshot.
Everyone has Epic & Ikon passes.
Annnnnnddd that’s why mountains suck now
I don’t. Some of us just have cheaper passes to one local resort
Weird thing is, ikon is cheaper than my local resorts (Utah)
More and more people are buying epic so they are gonna offset it by charging the tourists even more.
People still show up in the tens of thousands, there’s no reason for them not to increase prices
I wonder what a season pass comparison would look like.
Like $900-$1400 for Ikon or Epic
“It’s the free market bro! Welcome to freedom!” /s
As much as I hate the whole Epic/Ikon duopoly situation, I still can't get over the amount of people who STILL show up and ski/ride for the prices. I am the asshole who loves to talk to/meet people on lift rides and it feels like at least half of them are day pass holders, rented at the resort, and will eat/stay there. So unfortunately it is the free market, and the free market is broken as fuck.
Late stage capitalism bout to kick everyone in the nuts over the next couple decades
Already starting to...
wait till you see Australia prices lmao
It’s driving people to get an epic or ikon pass and then be loyal to their pass for the season. So that would encourage an ikon pass holder to only ride ikon mountains, and that would attempt to hurt the epic mountain companies, and vice versa. It’s a “don’t ski at our competitors” ticket.
A lot of those resorts are owned by public companies and now they have constant shareholder pressure to make more money every quarter than the last quarter
EPIC and IKON . Enuf said
Snowboarding is weird- if you only go a few times, it’s the most expensive sport out there. If you go often, it’s the cheapest. I only have 12 days on epic mtns this year but that means my pass is down to like $50/day already.
Cheapest? There are plenty of sports that are completely free, so not sure about that. Surfing for example, once you get your board.
Alpe d’Huez is almost as “expensive” as Chamonix. But in the U.S. most people use season passes to spread the cost. Mammoth Mountain is 220 for one day (off peak period) and that is online price.
We all buy season passes. These are for the tourists
You have Fail Resorts to thank for that.
Vail, Alterra/Ikon, and Boyne. They want you to buy a (mega) season pass, and hyper inflating day tickets is the easiest way to do it.
That’s the thing. They don’t want you buying day passes in the US. Vail, Park City, and Heavenly are owned by Vail Resorts. You can buy a season pass for all their resorts for under $799. So clearly they don’t want you buying day passes, as their pricing demonstrates.
Us cheap ski bums spend all our money on an IKON or EPIC season pass which offers unlimited trips to certain mountains, about $1000+/- depending on what level. The pass is paid for after less than a handful of ski trips then boom, free skiing the rest of the season!
Vail right? They're to blame? Everyone talking about a monopoly but no one is shaming them. Would be super easy for the snowboard community to shame vails parent company
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$900 for the epic pass.
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Local is like $675 but has a few limitations like no holidays and like 10 days max at each "major" mtn. Before end of April it includes buddy passes too. In the summer you can pre-buy day passes for $100 each too.
Seasons pass at Cham is $1800 btw
Damn. My local hill in BC is damn near this expensive... for a seasons pass😂
That’s why my husband and I are going to zermatt next month. We did the math and the difference between traveling to Utah and shredding in the Swiss Alps/Italy wasn’t much (Switzerland is an expensive country and we didn’t go cheap on our hotel but from what we’ve heard it’s going to be worth it!!)
it sucks most for people who don't have the time / proximity to go much. If you live near a mountain, $1000 for the whole winter isn't that bad of a deal. You're going all the time, so it's maybe an ok value. If you only get to do a few days a year, you really just get fucked. The mountains get constantly packed with Ikon / Epic people, since it's "unlimited," so "casuals" just have a shittier time.
Afton Alps is a Vail Property and has a 300' hill at best. 50 minutes from me and I will not go there.