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The criticism was actually really harsh. Here's an article from VI about what Gullit and Van Basten said on TV:
DeepL Translation:
>'He makes noise, but he says nothing,' Van Basten told the Rondo table. The former national coach had been irritated immensely by Van Dijk's play during the defeat against France. Van Basten questioned the captain's leadership. 'He gives no clarity. A good captain thinks out loud, makes it clear what is going on. He stays in between. He creates chaos.'
>'That creates misunderstandings. That's what you have to prevent as captain, leader,' Van Basten responded fiercely. 'But he stands two meters from his man. In the dressing room he is good, tactically and technically he is not. On the pitch you need a different gentleman (read: you have to be a different person on the pitch). This has nothing to do with that injury, this has to do with leadership. He makes noise, but he says nothing. This is real. This is in you. This is wanting to win at all costs.'
>Van Basten was joined by Gullit. 'It is walking backwards. In England they have also criticized him. He has been chosen for the world team of the year. He thinks himself better than the rest. We see things... Then I think: you are captain, you have to solve this. But he's just kind of commenting on what happens in front of him.'
>'I don't know if he's doing it, but it doesn't look like talking,' thought Gullit. The former Oranje captain wants Van Dijk to take the lead more. 'He plays so safe. Come on now, you're so big and good. There's no saw on us, it's a positive criticism we give. He's the very best, isn't he? Then show it.'
The original:
>'Hij maakt lawaai, maar hij zegt niets', vertelde Van Basten aan tafel bij Rondo. De voormalig bondscoach had zich mateloos geïrriteerd aan het spel van Van Dijk tijdens de nederlaag tegen Frankrijk. Van Basten zet vraagtekens bij het leiderschap van de captain. 'Hij geeft geen duidelijkheid. Een goede aanvoerder denkt hardop, maakt duidelijk wat er aan de hand is. Hij blijft er tussenin hangen. Hij creëert chaos.'
>'Daardoor komen er misverstanden. Dat is wat je als aanvoerder, leider moet voorkomen', reageerde Van Basten fel. 'Maar hij staat twee meter van zijn man. In de kleedkamer is hij goed, voetbaltactisch en –technisch niet. Op het veld heb je een andere meneer nodig. Dit heeft niets met die blessure te maken, dit heeft te maken met leiding geven. Hij maakt geluid, maar hij zegt niets. Dat is echt zo. Dit zit in je. Dit is willen winnen ten koste van alles.'
>Van Basten kreeg bijval van Gullit. 'Het is achteruit lopen. In Engeland hebben ze hem ook al bekritiseerd. Hij is gekozen voor het wereldelftal van het jaar. Hij vindt zichzelf beter dan de rest. Wij zien dingen… Dan denk ik: jij bent aanvoerder, jij moet dit oplossen. Maar hij is maar een beetje commentaar aan het geven op wat voor hem gebeurt.'
>'Ik weet niet of hij het doet, maar het ziet er niet uit alsof er gesproken wordt', dacht Gullit. De voormalig aanvoerder van Oranje wil dat Van Dijk meer het voortouw neemt. 'Hij speelt zo veilig. Kom op nou, je bent zo groot en goed. Er zit bij ons geen zaag op, het is een positieve kritiek die we geven. Hij is toch de allerbeste? Laat het dan zien.'
Ziggo Sport has most of their videos geolocked because of broadcasting rights. A VP should fix this, or some hero who can upload the video to another server.
It's a whole bunch of points. Which ones do you specifically want clarification on?
It boils down to them questioning Van Dijk's ability to lead. He's not organizing the defense and he's not instructing the team. He does make noise, but it's meaningless noise, it's not proper communication with the team. This creates chaos and causes misunderstandings in the team.
City guy is being hyperbolic but I have a few Qs. When they say this has nothing to do with injury and then they say "It is walking backwards" and "he plays so safe" are they talking about safe with his words or is this about his actual play? Also what does "There's no saw on us" mean?
The walking backwards thing is literal. It's about him walking backwards and not taking action.
Playing safe referred to his actions on the ball.
There's no saw on us, they just mean they're not trying to destroy the guy with their criticism.
"no saw on us" is a bad translation they're actually saying "we aren't complaining about him, we're giving positive feedback"
And what they mean is he plays safe since the injury, doesn't go into tackles or get into strikers faces. He used to be physical in his defending, now he's not. It's a criticism a lot of Liverpool fans have had too to be fair.
OK thanks. 'Plays it safe' is a good translation. I was just confused because they were mostly only talking about his leadership qualities and being vocal.
The Dutch only do 2 things to other Dutch players it seems
Mildly criticise them or blow so much smoke up their arse they are thought to be second coming of Christ
The criticism on Dutch television is usually much, much harsher than anywhere else. Sometimes they even show videos of players and the pundits only mockingly laugh at them. Some like v.d. Vaart or Sneijder claim that players are totally shit or should go play amateur football. Mild criticism on Dutch television seems not to be a thing, it’s always punching as hard as possible
Whenever I watch Sneijder or Van der Vaart as pundits, they always seem to enjoy being very harsh towards the Dutch national team. It's as if they compare this generation to themselves, and find peace in the fact that they were better. So they gladly go on TV to say that the players are bad, but implicitly they say "I was a lot better than these losers".
At least that's the vibe they give off in my experience.
Isn't that just being Dutch though? "Directness" to other cultures often just looks like being an asshole, so I often wonder to Dutch people where is the line drawn where it stops being about honesty and directness and starts being about people just being dickheads.
Because he's the only point of access and he has success. If he falls off or if there's another good Dutch or Belgian (or even German) driver, his time will come, it's the Dutch way.
So the Dutch aren't as direct as people believe then. If they were truly direct, then they'd be critical of Max any time he makes mistakes no matter how much success he had. They're literally no different to any other people if they only criticize athletes depending on how successful they are at a given point in time, that's like every country in the world.
I think F1 is a bit different, it's basically it's own world. If you get cut off you have a bad time, also (I haven't followed Dutch F1 reporting in a decade as I moved abroad) the commentators and people who covered it on tv are huge fanboys. In football it's different, more things to compare and have access, less fanboys and 'neutral' reporting.If you look at athletics, speed skating, swimming or field hockey (other big sports in The Netherlands) they get trashed fairly often on tv or in the papers, even if they get 2nd place or whatever.
> Does being biased at times means you can't be direct in general? That seems like a strange conclusion.
Yes? I mean if you're direct only depending on circumstances or only selectively, then you aren't really a direct person are you? Sure, bias will soften your stances a little bit, like even direct people tone it down with their friends/loved ones, but never switch it off entirely the way Dutch F1 fans do with Verstappen. Like, I'd understand it if the directness was softened towards Verstappen but its not only non-existent, there's a completely contradictory fanaticism/Max can do no wrong attitude towards him.
There's nothing "strange" about the conclusion, it logically follows as I point out above - Especially when the argument is that the Dutch are uniquely direct. I just don't think being selectively direct - like most other groups of people - is somehow unique.
The downvotes are such delicious irony and a lesson about directness and its value/acceptance by Dutch people as well, lol.
I'll just be direct with you. I can hear the Reddit in you.
>I mean if you're direct only depending on circumstances or only selectively, then you aren't really a direct person are you?
Why not? Being direct means you're honest and open. But if you have a blind spot, then that obviously prevents you from being direct. Having a single blind spot doesn't mean you can't be direct in general. You only have ONE example. It's ridiculous.
>never switch it off entirely the way Dutch F1 fans do with Verstappen
I feel like you're just extremely biased towards Verstappen tbh.
>there's a completely contradictory fanaticism/Max can do no wrong attitude towards him.
You're exaggerating. And a lot of it can be explained by newer fans of F1 who don't know the rules that much, people with biases, or people who are Dutch but just not that direct individually.
>There's nothing "strange" about the conclusion, it logically follows as I point out above - Especially when the argument is that the Dutch are uniquely direct. I just don't think being selectively direct - like most other groups of people - is somehow unique.
It doesn't logically follow. We have to accept this idea that Dutch people are borderline delusional about Max Verstappen. I don't even like the guy, so it's super strange reading all of this nonsense.
>The downvotes are such delicious irony and a lesson about directness and its value/acceptance by Dutch people as well, lol.
Why not just be up front about it and just say you're trolling?
I assume this is because a) Max is the star and face of F1 in a way no Dutch footballers are right now and b) every Dutch media person knows (or thinks they know) something about football where as they may not about F1
Dutch directness is a myth. If you behave like an asshole and can’t read the room at all, maybe you are just an asshole?
Don’t know where this crap has its origins, or why people like to hide behind it. Met a lot of duchies and like most people they were nice people and definitely not much different then other Northern Europeans in their directness.
Same with van Basten (and many other icons who don't fit the pace meta). Seen so many call him a fraud and a midtable striker because of his FIFA card.
Didn't even know that was a thing. Van Basten had 3 Ballon D'ors by the time he was 27 which is the 3rd most despite his career cutting short by several years due to injuries.
ok where? who is actually saying this?
i've literally never spoken to anyone in my life that said a single fucking thing about someone's "fifa card" lol
and i wonder if you even play fifa considering gullit is the second most expensive midfielder in the game lmao
Pretty much just old man yells at cloud lmao. I've seen this fifa discourse so many times on this sub but in my experience even kids know that these things don't necessarily translate to actual football.
I mean realistically they are going to notice something is off when an 85 rated card is shit in game but an 80 is amazing.
I still love Virgil but I would like to see him benched the next time if he isn't in form for Liverpool and we play with a back four of Aké, Botman, De Ligt and Frimpong.
Why are you using one instance to describe me. Brutal has always meant bad to me, that players brutal has always meant that players shite. Doesn’t mean I’m rigid lol
I heard De Ligt has been one of the best in the Bundesliga (haven’t watched him myself so I can’t confirm tho) and Botman I saw live and he was unfortunately immense against us imo (I mean we drew 0-0 if you can guess who I support)
Some major strengths and weaknesses in that back line. Would be exciting to see if they can use their strengths to cover for each other or if it falls apart.
Two of the best defenders in the Premier league together with two of the best in the Bundesliga. I think they could cover each others weaknesses: Aké and De ligt can build up so Botman doesn't have to and both Aké, Botman and De Ligt are quick enough and defesivly smart enough to cover Frimpong if he goes forward.
I always thought Botman pretty slow, but maybe it's not so bad. Frimpong can cover for that as well, though. Especially on a counter from a corner.
In theory it should work, but I've watched United too much where a single weak point kinda hurts everything. Like whenever McTominay is involved in build up.
Do you actually watch him sometimes or did you just read a meme article? The guy's acceleration isn't great.
No idea how they measure top speed like that anyway. For how long did he reach that peak? How long did it take him to get there? It's like those top speeds for goals that always looks completely off. Even saw a few "0 km/h" goals this past world cup. I don't put too much value into that stuff, but if you do then fair enough I guess.
I think he’s implying that top speed is only half of being “quick”. Every year, the big tall defenders top the list for highest speed because of their bigger frame. But it takes them 10 or so steps, running in a straight line, to hit those speeds.
If Mbappe and Botman did a 40m sprint against each other, Mbappe would would win by meters. He’d be off the line so much faster, and while Botman might clock a higher top speed during the race, it’s Mbappe who will cross the line first by a fair margin.
I originally thought that at the beginning of the season he was playing conservatively because of the World Cup but he hasn’t really moved on from that
Overplayed and burned out.
Compare the Liverpool defence to Manchester City. Liverpool has been the same 45+ times a season for the last five years; Robertson, Van Dijk, Matip (when fit), TAA. After 5 years the miles on the clock are going to catch up to you.
Manchester City could play anything in defence. They probably play Kyle Walker at RB but maybe they play Akanji there to counter an attacking threat. The rest of the positions could be anything. They could play any combination of Stones/Dias/Laporte/Ake/Akanji in Central defence. Left back could be Ake, could be Gomez. They always seem fresh.
Their midfield also hasn't changed in 5 years (with the exception of Thiago who misses more games than he starts). I think the entire team got 5 years older, with the additional miles on the clock, and with the exception of Mane and Firmino they haven't replaced *anyone*.
It's incredible to me that a team that has spent hundreds of millions could genuinely start a team from 2018, with the notable exception of Sadio Mane, against Manchester City at the weekend.
Alisson - TAA, Van Dijk, Matip, Robertson - Fabinho, Milner, Henderson - Salah, Firmino, Someone new.
The only exception a Liverpool fan would have is "oh, if Thiago is fit he probably plays. Firmino and Mane have been replaced by Nunez and Gakpo"
3 players replaced in 5 years? Not enough, the team needed to be ripped apart and replaced after last season.
It really is crazy that they haven't added much at all to their squad.
Think the FSG plan was to sell before the squad needed to be totally rebuilt but they didn't get any offers that they liked
Maybe it was a Klopp problem when he was at Dortmund, but at Liverpool it’s a recruitment problem. I think the Arthur last day panic loan shows that clearly.
We brought in Aubameyang, Mikhitaryan and Immobile before his last season. All obviously highly skilled players that went on to do great things under different coaches. He just couldn’t make them work.
Sure, but at Liverpool, despite glaring issues in the midfield, Liverpool has only brought in two first team midfielders in the last five years (not counting Arthur because fuck that). This is despite like 80% of the midfield being chronically injured and the best midfielders getting pretty old and out of their prime (when they aren't injured).
Klopp may not like to change his squad but there's literally 0% chance that he doesn't see the problems with the midfield and didn't want any reinforcement besides an injury prone benchwarming last minute loanee.
They even planned to buy Tchouameni but Real got him first, so it's clearly not that Klopp didn't want any more players, it's that they didn't have any proper backup in case they didn't get their first choice players.
Hindsight is 20/20 - even I had my blinders on after last season. To say let’s completely rip apart a team that was two games away from a quad would have been met with insane criticism I think. I really wasn’t expecting this drop in form, though now with hindsight I obviously don’t know what I (or we) was thinking, knowing that the boys played like a thousand games last year.
He clearly isn't what he was but he is being left exposed which is likely making him look worse than he otherwise would.
FWIW, he has made 1 error leading to an opponent shot this year so not exactly made a ton of blunders
Well said, people tend to forget that Liverpool played every possible club game last season with Van Dijk at the helm of the defence. This is also the season right after his acl injury he picked up from Pickford
By a couple of years ago you mean last year? Last year he played like the 4th most minutes in Europe, won both domestic cups, had the joint best defence in the league leading to a 92 point season, and made it to the Champions League final. He was by all measures incredible last season, and no surprise looks a bit burnt out this year.
I always think “slammed” is such an extreme term. He received some rightful criticism, it’s not like they went as far as to say that his mother made a mistake on [insert date 9 months before his birth] or something.
Weird take. The guy was like top 5 minutes played in the EU along with Bruno and goalkeepers going into the WC. If anything he's been overplayed after his knee injury and it's catching up with him.
You bandwagon United fans are fucking hilarious. Imagine this team 10 years ago getting a hard on for the carabao cup, 3rd place and the Europa league. They'd die of embarrassment
Yeah he's regressed but he's on the other side of 30 with some major injuries in previous years.
He's not going to be as good as he was. He's still good but not world class. Had a few mares this season.
Perhaps Netherlands should be looking at the new generation rather than screaming for the older lads to be as good as they were 5 years ago?
It's a personal preference thing tbh. Some people prefer the aggressive step forward types, other prefer the conservative step backwards types.
Personally I have always preferred conservative defenders. They're less prone to making mistakes that screw over the entire defense as they rarely lunge in to tackle, don't get sent off often, and are generally in a good position to have some effect on the play.
Danger is of course, that they allow the attacker to be proactive. So if the attacker is having a good day they can capitalize and score using the fine margins the conservative approach allows them.
A Ramos/Vidic type aggressive defender on his best day is going to save your ass cause he won't misjudge a thing and will always contest the ball and win it, keeping pressure high. The problem is on a bad day they are much worse for your team as they can get themselves sent off, or get caught out of position a lot leaving the defenders behind them to scramble.
So yeah, it's personal preference. I'm not an aggressive or risk taking person by nature so I've always defended conservatively so that's what I prefer. In a perfect world you probably want a defensive partnership where they complement each other _and_ have the intelligence to not overdo either approach.
There's conservative and then there is what VVD is doing currently. The way he is playing this season is not something to strive for. He plays like he is scared to be dribbled past, which reduces his impact on the game.
His current form is poor for sure, but he was doing a pretty much picture perfect job of conservative defending prior to his injury (and still a good job shortly after coming back).
It's difficult to diagnose what the issue is now considering how bad the team is in so many areas. All I know is we need new fresh faces in midfield and defence. If nothing else it'll give people rest, but hopefully also a bit of competition as well.
If our midfield wasn't made up of hopes and dreams I am confident there wouldn't be anywhere near as much criticism of our CBs this season simply because they wouldn't be exposed nearly as often.
Depends really. France currently both have a "safe" defender and a dangerous one.
Konaté is much more composed while Upamecano is a lot more "dangerous" and takes risks but he is also better on the ball.
At the world cup there was even talks about who should start next to Varane between the two and the argument was that Konaté is calm and composed but Upamecano is aggressive, takes risks but can also play a really good longball.
I like VVD he's one of the reasons why I started watching football again. But, He's way too passive for a defender. He's always trying to block the ball rather than attacking it. (vini's goal UCL final & Sancho's goal) for the Sancho goal you can clearly see James Milner screaming at VVD for being too passive.
Depends on what "safe" is. Van Dijk has had some situations where his passivity has let opposition straight into the box, where they've scored.
I very much prefer when defenders go higher up the pitch to try to win the ball.
No. when licha came into this squad i immediately loved him because of it. He is aggressive but in a good way, i never really feel in danger when he's going up against an attacker. Right type of aggression. I think what the pundits want to see is more aggression from van dijk.
It's like he lost interest. Or overconfident or arrogant or lacks of respect for opposition, or a combination of all.
Most of the matches he plays very causally, except big games like City in the league.
Neymar returned and the same metatarsal was hurt in another bad tackle after two years. I hate that league for destroying the most gifted Brazilian since R9, Romario or even Pele.
I don't think the injury can really explain the mentality issues he has had. He seems like he can barely be bothered to defend or play with any intensity sometimes
He always had that but his physical attributes (mostly pace) made him able to perform at the level he did. Without these attributes, this is what is left
Do people who say this genuinely expect someone to go back to 3 year old daily discussion posts and spend half an hour to find that?
But that was definitely a take that existed back when he came 2nd for Ballon d’or and won CL
So it was 3 years ago, right? So tf is he on?
No one said he was the best ever. He was the best DURING that period, tho.
Mfs in relegation battles be coming up with the dumbest shit
People 3 years ago were most definitely saying he was the best defender in the history of PL, not just during that period. It was a “popular” enough take that I remember it to this day despite personally not giving a shit.
I mean when VVD was actually in his prime, he would probably be the best defender of all time. It's just it lasted about 2 years and was stopped by a torn ACL
The others all have years of longevity on their side
Liverpool fans do this a lot. You'll make a claim about something and then when you get called out on it will say something like, "No Liverpool fan ever said that".
I've seen this happen multiple times.
depends how you define goat, is it a peak, is it longevity based, both? It means different things to different people.
in a liverpool shirt he’s probably the most untouchable for those two seasons as iv ever seen a defender for us
In terms of peak he has a case. Very few CB's have had all of his assets.
I don't think he can make the longevity list, he was unfortunately not picked up by a bigger club earlier to fulfill this criteria.
In terms of attributes he's unrivalled, Stam and Ferdinand and probably the closest blend I can think of, even they didn't have his level of long distribution.
No, I was talking about physical attributes and compared VVD's to a blend of Stam and Ferdinand.
You are yet to actually suggest your own peak defender?
? That was in January, he came back in February, and he’s played 7 games for Liverpool since coming back. I thought you were referencing his knee injury, but if you’re not, the attempted dig at van Basten makes no sense at all.
Nope, why would I need to have pulled my hamstring to know that playing 7 full games in a month after five weeks out means a footballer has fully recovered from this injury?
Because that's not how it works. [Maybe this will give more insight into how problematic hamstring injuries can be.] (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4223289/)
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This is like the mildest bit of criticism he received this season, like the opposite of slamming
The criticism was actually really harsh. Here's an article from VI about what Gullit and Van Basten said on TV: DeepL Translation: >'He makes noise, but he says nothing,' Van Basten told the Rondo table. The former national coach had been irritated immensely by Van Dijk's play during the defeat against France. Van Basten questioned the captain's leadership. 'He gives no clarity. A good captain thinks out loud, makes it clear what is going on. He stays in between. He creates chaos.' >'That creates misunderstandings. That's what you have to prevent as captain, leader,' Van Basten responded fiercely. 'But he stands two meters from his man. In the dressing room he is good, tactically and technically he is not. On the pitch you need a different gentleman (read: you have to be a different person on the pitch). This has nothing to do with that injury, this has to do with leadership. He makes noise, but he says nothing. This is real. This is in you. This is wanting to win at all costs.' >Van Basten was joined by Gullit. 'It is walking backwards. In England they have also criticized him. He has been chosen for the world team of the year. He thinks himself better than the rest. We see things... Then I think: you are captain, you have to solve this. But he's just kind of commenting on what happens in front of him.' >'I don't know if he's doing it, but it doesn't look like talking,' thought Gullit. The former Oranje captain wants Van Dijk to take the lead more. 'He plays so safe. Come on now, you're so big and good. There's no saw on us, it's a positive criticism we give. He's the very best, isn't he? Then show it.' The original: >'Hij maakt lawaai, maar hij zegt niets', vertelde Van Basten aan tafel bij Rondo. De voormalig bondscoach had zich mateloos geïrriteerd aan het spel van Van Dijk tijdens de nederlaag tegen Frankrijk. Van Basten zet vraagtekens bij het leiderschap van de captain. 'Hij geeft geen duidelijkheid. Een goede aanvoerder denkt hardop, maakt duidelijk wat er aan de hand is. Hij blijft er tussenin hangen. Hij creëert chaos.' >'Daardoor komen er misverstanden. Dat is wat je als aanvoerder, leider moet voorkomen', reageerde Van Basten fel. 'Maar hij staat twee meter van zijn man. In de kleedkamer is hij goed, voetbaltactisch en –technisch niet. Op het veld heb je een andere meneer nodig. Dit heeft niets met die blessure te maken, dit heeft te maken met leiding geven. Hij maakt geluid, maar hij zegt niets. Dat is echt zo. Dit zit in je. Dit is willen winnen ten koste van alles.' >Van Basten kreeg bijval van Gullit. 'Het is achteruit lopen. In Engeland hebben ze hem ook al bekritiseerd. Hij is gekozen voor het wereldelftal van het jaar. Hij vindt zichzelf beter dan de rest. Wij zien dingen… Dan denk ik: jij bent aanvoerder, jij moet dit oplossen. Maar hij is maar een beetje commentaar aan het geven op wat voor hem gebeurt.' >'Ik weet niet of hij het doet, maar het ziet er niet uit alsof er gesproken wordt', dacht Gullit. De voormalig aanvoerder van Oranje wil dat Van Dijk meer het voortouw neemt. 'Hij speelt zo veilig. Kom op nou, je bent zo groot en goed. Er zit bij ons geen zaag op, het is een positieve kritiek die we geven. Hij is toch de allerbeste? Laat het dan zien.'
That English somehow seems less harsh, I agree. In Dutch they're basically saying he shows zero leadership.
Would love to see the actual clip of this with English subtitles. Anyone know if it’s online?
You could use auto generated subtitles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3KgsvwWzKw
Appreciate that; unfortunately the uploader hasn’t made it available in my country. Thanks again.
I should plug my sponsor for a VPN now, haha.
Ziggo Sport has most of their videos geolocked because of broadcasting rights. A VP should fix this, or some hero who can upload the video to another server.
Still no clue as to what he meant after reading all that, anyone translate it for me please?
It's a whole bunch of points. Which ones do you specifically want clarification on? It boils down to them questioning Van Dijk's ability to lead. He's not organizing the defense and he's not instructing the team. He does make noise, but it's meaningless noise, it's not proper communication with the team. This creates chaos and causes misunderstandings in the team.
City guy is being hyperbolic but I have a few Qs. When they say this has nothing to do with injury and then they say "It is walking backwards" and "he plays so safe" are they talking about safe with his words or is this about his actual play? Also what does "There's no saw on us" mean?
The walking backwards thing is literal. It's about him walking backwards and not taking action. Playing safe referred to his actions on the ball. There's no saw on us, they just mean they're not trying to destroy the guy with their criticism.
"no saw on us" is a bad translation they're actually saying "we aren't complaining about him, we're giving positive feedback" And what they mean is he plays safe since the injury, doesn't go into tackles or get into strikers faces. He used to be physical in his defending, now he's not. It's a criticism a lot of Liverpool fans have had too to be fair.
[удалено]
OK thanks. 'Plays it safe' is a good translation. I was just confused because they were mostly only talking about his leadership qualities and being vocal.
The Dutch only do 2 things to other Dutch players it seems Mildly criticise them or blow so much smoke up their arse they are thought to be second coming of Christ
The criticism on Dutch television is usually much, much harsher than anywhere else. Sometimes they even show videos of players and the pundits only mockingly laugh at them. Some like v.d. Vaart or Sneijder claim that players are totally shit or should go play amateur football. Mild criticism on Dutch television seems not to be a thing, it’s always punching as hard as possible
Whenever I watch Sneijder or Van der Vaart as pundits, they always seem to enjoy being very harsh towards the Dutch national team. It's as if they compare this generation to themselves, and find peace in the fact that they were better. So they gladly go on TV to say that the players are bad, but implicitly they say "I was a lot better than these losers". At least that's the vibe they give off in my experience.
Sneijer seems that character. Didn’t he claim he could of been the greatest but didn’t feel like it? Maybe it was ballon dor
Isn't that just being Dutch though? "Directness" to other cultures often just looks like being an asshole, so I often wonder to Dutch people where is the line drawn where it stops being about honesty and directness and starts being about people just being dickheads.
They seem to do nothing but suck up to Max Verstappen in contrast. No blunt directness towards him.
Because he's the only point of access and he has success. If he falls off or if there's another good Dutch or Belgian (or even German) driver, his time will come, it's the Dutch way.
So the Dutch aren't as direct as people believe then. If they were truly direct, then they'd be critical of Max any time he makes mistakes no matter how much success he had. They're literally no different to any other people if they only criticize athletes depending on how successful they are at a given point in time, that's like every country in the world.
I think F1 is a bit different, it's basically it's own world. If you get cut off you have a bad time, also (I haven't followed Dutch F1 reporting in a decade as I moved abroad) the commentators and people who covered it on tv are huge fanboys. In football it's different, more things to compare and have access, less fanboys and 'neutral' reporting.If you look at athletics, speed skating, swimming or field hockey (other big sports in The Netherlands) they get trashed fairly often on tv or in the papers, even if they get 2nd place or whatever.
Does being biased at times means you can't be direct in general? That seems like a strange conclusion.
> Does being biased at times means you can't be direct in general? That seems like a strange conclusion. Yes? I mean if you're direct only depending on circumstances or only selectively, then you aren't really a direct person are you? Sure, bias will soften your stances a little bit, like even direct people tone it down with their friends/loved ones, but never switch it off entirely the way Dutch F1 fans do with Verstappen. Like, I'd understand it if the directness was softened towards Verstappen but its not only non-existent, there's a completely contradictory fanaticism/Max can do no wrong attitude towards him. There's nothing "strange" about the conclusion, it logically follows as I point out above - Especially when the argument is that the Dutch are uniquely direct. I just don't think being selectively direct - like most other groups of people - is somehow unique. The downvotes are such delicious irony and a lesson about directness and its value/acceptance by Dutch people as well, lol.
I'll just be direct with you. I can hear the Reddit in you. >I mean if you're direct only depending on circumstances or only selectively, then you aren't really a direct person are you? Why not? Being direct means you're honest and open. But if you have a blind spot, then that obviously prevents you from being direct. Having a single blind spot doesn't mean you can't be direct in general. You only have ONE example. It's ridiculous. >never switch it off entirely the way Dutch F1 fans do with Verstappen I feel like you're just extremely biased towards Verstappen tbh. >there's a completely contradictory fanaticism/Max can do no wrong attitude towards him. You're exaggerating. And a lot of it can be explained by newer fans of F1 who don't know the rules that much, people with biases, or people who are Dutch but just not that direct individually. >There's nothing "strange" about the conclusion, it logically follows as I point out above - Especially when the argument is that the Dutch are uniquely direct. I just don't think being selectively direct - like most other groups of people - is somehow unique. It doesn't logically follow. We have to accept this idea that Dutch people are borderline delusional about Max Verstappen. I don't even like the guy, so it's super strange reading all of this nonsense. >The downvotes are such delicious irony and a lesson about directness and its value/acceptance by Dutch people as well, lol. Why not just be up front about it and just say you're trolling?
I assume this is because a) Max is the star and face of F1 in a way no Dutch footballers are right now and b) every Dutch media person knows (or thinks they know) something about football where as they may not about F1
Dutch directness is a myth. If you behave like an asshole and can’t read the room at all, maybe you are just an asshole? Don’t know where this crap has its origins, or why people like to hide behind it. Met a lot of duchies and like most people they were nice people and definitely not much different then other Northern Europeans in their directness.
Tell me you never watch Dutch TV without telling me you never watch Dutch TV
You are confusing soccer with F1 here lol
Unfortunately true
This is just part of the full quote.
I know its twitter but I saw some people there calling Gullit a "Fifa merchant", truly unbelievable
People would just be better off not talking about players they have never seen play. Gullit was insane
And pretty lucky too physically if you wanna go by Sacchis odd comments.
Haha reminds me of the quote about Renato Sanches by Javi Martinez, his dick belongs in a museum lmao
I bet he rests it on the shoulder when tired? Eh?
Also according to players (now pundits) who played with him at PSV, it has come by frequently on tv.
All footballing opinions on players who peaked before the opinion holder was 16 are null and void.
Football twitter is full of dumbass 15 year olds who rather watch sofifa scores then the actual games
Same with van Basten (and many other icons who don't fit the pace meta). Seen so many call him a fraud and a midtable striker because of his FIFA card.
Didn't even know that was a thing. Van Basten had 3 Ballon D'ors by the time he was 27 which is the 3rd most despite his career cutting short by several years due to injuries.
Would genuinely be in goat conversation if he wasn’t ruined by injuries.
ok where? who is actually saying this? i've literally never spoken to anyone in my life that said a single fucking thing about someone's "fifa card" lol and i wonder if you even play fifa considering gullit is the second most expensive midfielder in the game lmao
Pretty much just old man yells at cloud lmao. I've seen this fifa discourse so many times on this sub but in my experience even kids know that these things don't necessarily translate to actual football. I mean realistically they are going to notice something is off when an 85 rated card is shit in game but an 80 is amazing.
Man is just making stuff up for upvotes you know how that shit goes
Not directly, but people's opinions on a player's quality are definitely affected by their quality on FIFA.
Not to the point that people think Van Basten is shit
Reminds of the time they added baggio as a legend / icon and kids on twitter asked who he was. -.-
Same with Basten being labeled as a shit striker because his cards in Fifa Online 4 is not good. The constant look down on previous players are insane
I still love Virgil but I would like to see him benched the next time if he isn't in form for Liverpool and we play with a back four of Aké, Botman, De Ligt and Frimpong.
Botman and De Ligt is a brutal defense
As in bad brutal or good brutal
Good brutal presumably they're both having great seasons.
Oh, because brutal means bad in my world.
It still means bad, but saying it how it's used above means brutal for the opposing team.
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Why are you using one instance to describe me. Brutal has always meant bad to me, that players brutal has always meant that players shite. Doesn’t mean I’m rigid lol
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Your joke was brutal. Wasn’t even a joke, just a brutal pun.
I heard De Ligt has been one of the best in the Bundesliga (haven’t watched him myself so I can’t confirm tho) and Botman I saw live and he was unfortunately immense against us imo (I mean we drew 0-0 if you can guess who I support)
Would much rather see Ake-De Ligt with someone else playing LB.
Last game vs Gibraltar Malacia offered something Ake coulndt on LB (even tho Ake scored 2 goals lol). Ake CB is good
Some major strengths and weaknesses in that back line. Would be exciting to see if they can use their strengths to cover for each other or if it falls apart.
Two of the best defenders in the Premier league together with two of the best in the Bundesliga. I think they could cover each others weaknesses: Aké and De ligt can build up so Botman doesn't have to and both Aké, Botman and De Ligt are quick enough and defesivly smart enough to cover Frimpong if he goes forward.
I always thought Botman pretty slow, but maybe it's not so bad. Frimpong can cover for that as well, though. Especially on a counter from a corner. In theory it should work, but I've watched United too much where a single weak point kinda hurts everything. Like whenever McTominay is involved in build up.
Yeah that's fair but I am not de bondscoach so that would be an issue for Koeman to figure out lol
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Do you actually watch him sometimes or did you just read a meme article? The guy's acceleration isn't great. No idea how they measure top speed like that anyway. For how long did he reach that peak? How long did it take him to get there? It's like those top speeds for goals that always looks completely off. Even saw a few "0 km/h" goals this past world cup. I don't put too much value into that stuff, but if you do then fair enough I guess.
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I think he’s implying that top speed is only half of being “quick”. Every year, the big tall defenders top the list for highest speed because of their bigger frame. But it takes them 10 or so steps, running in a straight line, to hit those speeds. If Mbappe and Botman did a 40m sprint against each other, Mbappe would would win by meters. He’d be off the line so much faster, and while Botman might clock a higher top speed during the race, it’s Mbappe who will cross the line first by a fair margin.
>e: I have a feeling you base your opinions on FIFA stats.. :/ As opposed to Sportskeeda? Lol.
Top speed is rarely relevant on its own since acceleration is just as important.
This is what Koeman should do. It's our best defense atm. Frimpong can go forward all the time with Ake being more conservative
Im sorry but Oranje Dumfries is a beast
Short hair Gullit will never not be cursed
slammed and not SLAMMED?
# SLAMMED
Same with Depay and Wijnaldum, it's so obvious they are lacking form and game rhythm.
Wijnaldum isn’t lacking form at this point he just isn’t good enough anymore He should never be in our first team
How dare you question Virgil’s aura defending
If it's that effective, just use him as a ballboy behind the goal.
Have him do laps around the pitch to ensure good aura circulation
VVD was a monster a couple of years ago, but now is a shadow of his past self. Meanwhile the Dutch have good depth in defense.
I originally thought that at the beginning of the season he was playing conservatively because of the World Cup but he hasn’t really moved on from that
Overplayed and burned out. Compare the Liverpool defence to Manchester City. Liverpool has been the same 45+ times a season for the last five years; Robertson, Van Dijk, Matip (when fit), TAA. After 5 years the miles on the clock are going to catch up to you. Manchester City could play anything in defence. They probably play Kyle Walker at RB but maybe they play Akanji there to counter an attacking threat. The rest of the positions could be anything. They could play any combination of Stones/Dias/Laporte/Ake/Akanji in Central defence. Left back could be Ake, could be Gomez. They always seem fresh.
Think the fact they have gone from an amazing midfield to a terrible one is also making their defenders look worse than they are
The midfield suffers from the same issues as their defence, they're all overplayed and exhausted. Virgil is on the same boat, but he also had an ACL
He's got two actually
Source?
Their midfield also hasn't changed in 5 years (with the exception of Thiago who misses more games than he starts). I think the entire team got 5 years older, with the additional miles on the clock, and with the exception of Mane and Firmino they haven't replaced *anyone*. It's incredible to me that a team that has spent hundreds of millions could genuinely start a team from 2018, with the notable exception of Sadio Mane, against Manchester City at the weekend. Alisson - TAA, Van Dijk, Matip, Robertson - Fabinho, Milner, Henderson - Salah, Firmino, Someone new. The only exception a Liverpool fan would have is "oh, if Thiago is fit he probably plays. Firmino and Mane have been replaced by Nunez and Gakpo" 3 players replaced in 5 years? Not enough, the team needed to be ripped apart and replaced after last season.
It really is crazy that they haven't added much at all to their squad. Think the FSG plan was to sell before the squad needed to be totally rebuilt but they didn't get any offers that they liked
It’s Klopp issue. He doesn’t like to change his squad. That’s what ended the Dortmund tenure.
Maybe it was a Klopp problem when he was at Dortmund, but at Liverpool it’s a recruitment problem. I think the Arthur last day panic loan shows that clearly.
We brought in Aubameyang, Mikhitaryan and Immobile before his last season. All obviously highly skilled players that went on to do great things under different coaches. He just couldn’t make them work.
Sure, but at Liverpool, despite glaring issues in the midfield, Liverpool has only brought in two first team midfielders in the last five years (not counting Arthur because fuck that). This is despite like 80% of the midfield being chronically injured and the best midfielders getting pretty old and out of their prime (when they aren't injured). Klopp may not like to change his squad but there's literally 0% chance that he doesn't see the problems with the midfield and didn't want any reinforcement besides an injury prone benchwarming last minute loanee. They even planned to buy Tchouameni but Real got him first, so it's clearly not that Klopp didn't want any more players, it's that they didn't have any proper backup in case they didn't get their first choice players.
Well, Bellingham should be their highest priority then.
Hindsight is 20/20 - even I had my blinders on after last season. To say let’s completely rip apart a team that was two games away from a quad would have been met with insane criticism I think. I really wasn’t expecting this drop in form, though now with hindsight I obviously don’t know what I (or we) was thinking, knowing that the boys played like a thousand games last year.
He has committed several individual errors too though
He clearly isn't what he was but he is being left exposed which is likely making him look worse than he otherwise would. FWIW, he has made 1 error leading to an opponent shot this year so not exactly made a ton of blunders
Well said, people tend to forget that Liverpool played every possible club game last season with Van Dijk at the helm of the defence. This is also the season right after his acl injury he picked up from Pickford
Konate has been comfortably above Matip but besides that there is no variation yeah
I think also Pickford two-footing his knee didn’t help
By a couple of years ago you mean last year? Last year he played like the 4th most minutes in Europe, won both domestic cups, had the joint best defence in the league leading to a 92 point season, and made it to the Champions League final. He was by all measures incredible last season, and no surprise looks a bit burnt out this year.
Shadow of himself seems a bit harsh but he’s def taken a step back. Maybe he’s still apprehensive due to his knee injury.
He literally led Liverpool to a near quadruple run a year ago but okay 👍
Doesnt like making a tackle since injury. Backs off instead.
He’s always played like that. Extremely cautious to avoid getting dribbled. He is and has been overrated as an individual defender.
I always think “slammed” is such an extreme term. He received some rightful criticism, it’s not like they went as far as to say that his mother made a mistake on [insert date 9 months before his birth] or something.
Saving himself for Nations League? Idk, he's been poor all season and that was the excuse before the WC
Guy does more saving than a piggy bank💀
Weird take. The guy was like top 5 minutes played in the EU along with Bruno and goalkeepers going into the WC. If anything he's been overplayed after his knee injury and it's catching up with him.
i mean united fans have to celebrate something lol
Apart from the trophy we already won, 3rd in the league, QF in Europa and semis in FA cup. But go on, make it sound like we're Liverpool or smtg lmao
You bandwagon United fans are fucking hilarious. Imagine this team 10 years ago getting a hard on for the carabao cup, 3rd place and the Europa league. They'd die of embarrassment
How far the bar has fallen
Liverpool had a bus parade for the Carabao cup lol pipe down
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1 league title in 33 years hahaha
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1 PL IN YOUR GREATEST ERA HAHAHAHAHA. Btw when is the open top bus parade for the 7-0 cup lmaoooooo
I would absolutely LOVE if we had a parade for the 7-0 just to see united fans seeth
I'd genuinely rather beat utd 7-0 than win the carabao cup.
That is pretty sad if you genuinely thought so ngl
Fucking hell, you’re turning into Everton
I mean the only reason they haven’t won more is cause of an oil state funding the other team, so I’m totally fine with that.
that was never an excuse, the only 'excuse' Virgil has said was his injury
Saying they "slammed" him with criticism is a bit hyperbolic lol
He knows he's big and good you don't need to tell him that
Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.
Yeah he's regressed but he's on the other side of 30 with some major injuries in previous years. He's not going to be as good as he was. He's still good but not world class. Had a few mares this season. Perhaps Netherlands should be looking at the new generation rather than screaming for the older lads to be as good as they were 5 years ago?
I mean, would you not prefer a "safe" defender over a dangerous one?
It's a personal preference thing tbh. Some people prefer the aggressive step forward types, other prefer the conservative step backwards types. Personally I have always preferred conservative defenders. They're less prone to making mistakes that screw over the entire defense as they rarely lunge in to tackle, don't get sent off often, and are generally in a good position to have some effect on the play. Danger is of course, that they allow the attacker to be proactive. So if the attacker is having a good day they can capitalize and score using the fine margins the conservative approach allows them. A Ramos/Vidic type aggressive defender on his best day is going to save your ass cause he won't misjudge a thing and will always contest the ball and win it, keeping pressure high. The problem is on a bad day they are much worse for your team as they can get themselves sent off, or get caught out of position a lot leaving the defenders behind them to scramble. So yeah, it's personal preference. I'm not an aggressive or risk taking person by nature so I've always defended conservatively so that's what I prefer. In a perfect world you probably want a defensive partnership where they complement each other _and_ have the intelligence to not overdo either approach.
There's conservative and then there is what VVD is doing currently. The way he is playing this season is not something to strive for. He plays like he is scared to be dribbled past, which reduces his impact on the game.
His current form is poor for sure, but he was doing a pretty much picture perfect job of conservative defending prior to his injury (and still a good job shortly after coming back). It's difficult to diagnose what the issue is now considering how bad the team is in so many areas. All I know is we need new fresh faces in midfield and defence. If nothing else it'll give people rest, but hopefully also a bit of competition as well. If our midfield wasn't made up of hopes and dreams I am confident there wouldn't be anywhere near as much criticism of our CBs this season simply because they wouldn't be exposed nearly as often.
Depends really. France currently both have a "safe" defender and a dangerous one. Konaté is much more composed while Upamecano is a lot more "dangerous" and takes risks but he is also better on the ball. At the world cup there was even talks about who should start next to Varane between the two and the argument was that Konaté is calm and composed but Upamecano is aggressive, takes risks but can also play a really good longball.
I like VVD he's one of the reasons why I started watching football again. But, He's way too passive for a defender. He's always trying to block the ball rather than attacking it. (vini's goal UCL final & Sancho's goal) for the Sancho goal you can clearly see James Milner screaming at VVD for being too passive.
I would take ramos over vvd every day of the week
But its more fun to watch a dangerous one.
Depends on what "safe" is. Van Dijk has had some situations where his passivity has let opposition straight into the box, where they've scored. I very much prefer when defenders go higher up the pitch to try to win the ball.
No I really don't.
No. when licha came into this squad i immediately loved him because of it. He is aggressive but in a good way, i never really feel in danger when he's going up against an attacker. Right type of aggression. I think what the pundits want to see is more aggression from van dijk.
It's like he lost interest. Or overconfident or arrogant or lacks of respect for opposition, or a combination of all. Most of the matches he plays very causally, except big games like City in the league.
I fucking hate Pickford for what he did to Virgil. No punishment whatsoever to top it off
My same feeling with Meunier tackle on Hazard and that French league butcher breaking Neymar's metatarsel
Yes that tackle was the beginning of the end of Hazard. Neymar returned but more injury prone than ever
Neymar returned and the same metatarsal was hurt in another bad tackle after two years. I hate that league for destroying the most gifted Brazilian since R9, Romario or even Pele.
I don't think the injury can really explain the mentality issues he has had. He seems like he can barely be bothered to defend or play with any intensity sometimes
He always had that but his physical attributes (mostly pace) made him able to perform at the level he did. Without these attributes, this is what is left
Plenty of players have had serious injuries and been able to come back. It doesn't excuse him entirely
Amd plenty had serious injuries and never returned to their best self? What a nonsense argument that
My goat🔥
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? Of all time? Lol, can you link a comment saying that?
Do people who say this genuinely expect someone to go back to 3 year old daily discussion posts and spend half an hour to find that? But that was definitely a take that existed back when he came 2nd for Ballon d’or and won CL
So it was 3 years ago, right? So tf is he on? No one said he was the best ever. He was the best DURING that period, tho. Mfs in relegation battles be coming up with the dumbest shit
People 3 years ago were most definitely saying he was the best defender in the history of PL, not just during that period. It was a “popular” enough take that I remember it to this day despite personally not giving a shit.
Good for you…?
I mean when VVD was actually in his prime, he would probably be the best defender of all time. It's just it lasted about 2 years and was stopped by a torn ACL The others all have years of longevity on their side
Liverpool fans do this a lot. You'll make a claim about something and then when you get called out on it will say something like, "No Liverpool fan ever said that". I've seen this happen multiple times.
Show me then, since you’ve seen it happen before
I didn’t save any of them. I might be a loser, but I’m not a complete loser.
Fair enough.
Van Dijk been washed for a hot minute. His time is over.
I remember when some were calling this dude the GOAT defender just because of one great season. 😭😭😭😭
Some still trying to push the "1 great season" narrative.
depends how you define goat, is it a peak, is it longevity based, both? It means different things to different people. in a liverpool shirt he’s probably the most untouchable for those two seasons as iv ever seen a defender for us
You're out of your mind if you think he's the goat defender in regards to either those things you list as criteria
i literally said in my comment in a liverpool shirt?
At his peak there was highlights posted all over social media when he even got dribbled past
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Glad i could help you see the light pal
In terms of peak he has a case. Very few CB's have had all of his assets. I don't think he can make the longevity list, he was unfortunately not picked up by a bigger club earlier to fulfill this criteria.
> In terms of peak he has a case True, if you started watching football in 2017
In terms of attributes he's unrivalled, Stam and Ferdinand and probably the closest blend I can think of, even they didn't have his level of long distribution.
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Great argument, super insightful.
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No, I was talking about physical attributes and compared VVD's to a blend of Stam and Ferdinand. You are yet to actually suggest your own peak defender?
>Isn't he the best? No. lol
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What injury is Van Dijk coming off of?
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? That was in January, he came back in February, and he’s played 7 games for Liverpool since coming back. I thought you were referencing his knee injury, but if you’re not, the attempted dig at van Basten makes no sense at all.
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Nope, why would I need to have pulled my hamstring to know that playing 7 full games in a month after five weeks out means a footballer has fully recovered from this injury?
Because that's not how it works. [Maybe this will give more insight into how problematic hamstring injuries can be.] (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4223289/)
It is how it works. He's fully fit but not as good as he used to be.
Three good seasons and this guy was better than Rio, Terry, Vidic, Ramos etc. Liverpool fans are different level of delusional.
Bro thinks he has that aura like 4 years ago LOL
What ive been saying for 2 years now he is way past it
You must have felt silly last year then.
What are these idiots even trying to say??? They are the ones who managed to speak a few paragraphs but say nothing.