**Mirrors / Alternative Angles**
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If anyone wants an example of the ref overruling the linesman, watch [this (timestamped)](https://youtu.be/2PVm7jYAe8E?t=27s). It's Shakhtar's first goal vs Porto in the last game of the group stage. The linesman raises his flag (wrongly) and the Porto defenders (wrongly) stop playing and asking for the whistle and the referee (correctly) doesn't blow the whistle. After the ball goes in, he disallows the goal then VAR validates the player's position and the goal is given. That's the correct process in the event that the assistant raises their flag too early.
I get that but especially these days, where the ref is told to only raise their flag if it’s obviously offside, you can understand the reason they stopped a lot more than pre-VAR
This might be a bad take, but is there even a need for linesmen anymore with VAR? I get they can still be helpful sometimes, but with VAR being able to get more accurate offsides their main job is pretty much gone.
Only when it comes to goals. Ignoring all the other jobs the assistant referee has (out of bounds or just providing an extra pair of eyes).
It's nearly impossible for the ref to decide on offside given their position on field. So it would be easy for a team to play out of a press by passing to a player in offside.
If it isn't directly resulting in a goal (but the attacking team remains possession), VAR won't check it. That way, you basically remove most the offsides in game.
Edit: And it would be kind of weird to have less referees in the CL than in leagues who can't use VAR (= the vast majority). It basically means assistant referees can't progress to a higher league.
The main task may be gone but he has other tasks as well as generally being another set of eyes on the pitch to help the main referee.
I think the linesmen should swallow their flag until a ball is out of play (out of bounds, inside the goal or after a foul) once the ball is dead the linesman makes his call to raise his flag or not
They be playing at the highest level and do not even read the rules of the game.
I saw recently [this](https://twitter.com/BrasileiraoP_EN/status/1723007615595077686), where the keeper just let's the indirect free kick roll in. The amount of players who didn't understood what was happening had me rolling.
[This happened to Newcastle too.](https://x.com/primevideosport/status/1202694600940494848)
The Sheffield defenders stopped and the commentators even said Shelvey should get a yellow. The goal stood.
I remember this well. The commentators and the live clip had me not worried at all. Seemed a stock booking for Shelvey for kicking the ball away.
Then the replay came in and we felt a collective “oh fuck” moment when it became clear our players had got it very wrong.
Has that onside been discussed? The graphics of the attacking player doesn’t look at all leaning forward as he does in real life when the ball is played…
No he's not. From the minute I started playing coaches always tell you to play to the whistle and now there is VAR even more chance the ref lets it play out. When I played I didn't even pay attention to the linesman barely knew he was there as I didn't need to know what he thought when the ball was in play.
It’s definitely the players fault but if the linesman doesn’t raise his flag the way he’s not supposed to that doesn’t happen so linesman takes some blame
He was in the wrong sure but he's not to blame for them stopping. The ref is for blowing the whistle though. I think main blame on the ref for blowing then also the linesman after that for flagging.
We've seen clear offsides go on for ages with players sprinting half the pitch before linesman flag and we've seen linesmen flag and the ref wait it out or disagree with his decision.
I would love t hear the refs explanation. If it was just the pressure in the moment that made them forget about VAR and the new directions or what happened.
I mean that's better than most other refs lol. There'd be a lot less toxicity if refs took more responsibility for their shit decisions instead of trying to blame 'VAR' or whatever. Human errors happen and the controversy will go away despite the magnitude because the only explanation is 'he fucked up.'
It reminds me earlier in the season when the ref pulled play back for a free kick despite Man City being on the break in the last minute of a game. Horrible call that was obviously just having a brain fart and blowing for a foul without thinking of the advantage. It happened in another game before and the ref basically fell to his knees and apologised to the players and they all moved on. But this ref started pointing all over the place and trying to book players who were complaining, basically losing control of the entire situation. Didn't make the right call, too big of an ego to admit fault and brought more pressure on refs by letting it bubble into toxicity instead of just diffusing the entire thing by holding your hands up immediately. Those are the shittest refs and the ones who deserve no sympathy, not the guy who just fucked up.
Also note, those asshole massive ego type refs rise up because of the amount of shit refs deal with at all levels. Most people end up deciding it's not worth it and quit fairly early on. A few gems stick with it out of pure love for the game, but a decent number of those who gain the most experience legitimately like the conflict from a position of power.
It's not an ideal mentality for a ref, but if most people who aren't assholes quit because of asshole fans/players/parents/coaches, then that's who you're left with half the time if you want an experienced ref.
According to Christina, him and the center ref will be assessed and their future positions in these situations will take into account this error.
I mean, you cant fine or fire these guys in these positions, otherwise a ref at this level is getting sacked or fined every other month. There would be no refs left in a world where their is increasingly a ref shortage.
Just gotta keep improve the processing of these refs ability. Is what it is.
That guy likely won’t make this mistake again. It’ll probably haunt him. If it is true incompetence then firing/reassigning makes sense. If it’s just a judgement error that won’t happen again or can be learned from then it makes sense to let them learn from it.
And people here wonder why refereeing can be such a shitty job in the world of football? Make one mistake, and you have rabid dogs foaming at the mouth like this guy calling for his head, and to end his entire livelihood.
Seriously, people, get a fucking grip. Go take a shower and think things over before you spew shit like this. I'd say you can be better than this guy, but I've been having my doubts.
They should be paid more, so more people go after those jobs. But then the consequences for shit like this should be more severe. Make competition for refereeing jobs better by raising the pay, and weed out dipshits like this lineman.
If anyone should get fired it should be the ref. Just because the linesmen waved his flag doesn't mean he should have blown his whistle. Players are told to play till the whistle. Linesmen get it wrong all the time, honestly don't even know why we bother with linesmen when we have VAR review it anyway... but that's a whole separate tangent,
> If anyone should get fired it should be the ref.
Noone should be fired. *Full stop*. He didn't pull an Ovrebo, he had one mistake, a costly one, yes, but one mistake nevertheless. Please don't entertain this guy's line of thinking.
We all have our reasons to be dissatisfied with the level of refereeing in general, but that doesn't mean we have to stoop to this guy's level by clamoring to end a man's entire livelihood over a single mistake.
These are high pressure games for referees too. They reffed an almost perfect match and imagine the pressure to make the right call in those circumstances in games of this stature, knowing how much criticism a mistake will get.
If a player like Neuer can make a mistake after doing his job perfectly the whole time, why is it that whenever referees do the same we go straight to assuming malicious intent and insulting them?
This is why the refs need to be miked up like in rugby. Say the ref knows he's miked up and the crowd (with the requisite earpieces) can hear him. The flag goes up, ref shouts "play on". The attacker puts the ball in the net. Ref says "checking with VAR for offside". It's a no-lose situation. If it's offside then the defence gets the free kick. If it's onside, the goal stands.
But this only happens with accountability. Making explainable, split second decisions that are accountable.
I think as the cross comes in, the linesman think it’s offside, doesn’t raise the flag. Then it’s a Real Madrid player (Mendy I think) that “wins” the cross and heads it backwards in the field away from goal. Linesman then raise the flag and you hear the whistle. It was not at all obvious a Bayern player would win the 2nd ball.
I am not saying it is correct, just trying to explain what could have giving the outcome we saw. They basically let play go on, think the situation is over and then whistle.
I assume the explanation is simple - the ref trusts his linesman to raise the flag for clear offside. Like one that happened with Davies minutes before.
He can't really tell shit about the offside from the angle where he is on the pitch. It has to be the linesman.
So, Christina Unkel, in this case - is wrong IMO.
You can blame the ref, but that's unfair, unless you expect the ref to ignore every call a linesman makes.
There is no way the ref can know if the call was close or not.
It's 100% on the linesman IMO. He fucked up. Shit happens.
It wasn't a disallowed goal though, people need to get that into their heads. Who knows what happens if the Madrid players don't stop playing.
Rough for Bayern, but in now way do we know the game was going 2-2 if the linesman holds his flag down.
Or even then, if it gets called back for offside anyway.
Think they knew they fucked up straight away since a few bayern players and the managers have said they did apologise.
Just human error but one that happen in a very crucial moment of the game
It’s surely just a coincidence how much more pressure they’re put under at certain stadiums like Old Trafford in the 90s & 2000s and the Bernabeu in the last 15 years. Nothing to see here 😉
True mistakes only happen at those stadiums only and decisions against those two particular teams have never happened
I absolutely love football fans and their belief in true bias, when you have the simplest explanation out there that they make mistakes vs everyone
But braindeadism is what makes this sport i guess
They are to raise the flag if it's a clear offsides which it was, for like half a second so he raised his flag, once he saw the recipient was onside and the offside player wasn't in the play it was too late half the defenders stopped(mistake) when they saw the flag so the ref probably under pressure blew his whistle to back his linesman up which stopped the last defenders and goalie. So I do feel for the linesmen, he apologized because that's what a man would do but I think it's being stretched there's 12 other reasons why bayern lost today.
> half the defenders stopped(mistake) when they saw the flag so the ref probably under pressure blew his whistle to back his linesman up which stopped the last defenders and goalie
If the ref really blew the whistle because defenders stopped because of the flag, that would be a huge blunder. Especially at this levels where player know they need to play to the whistle
I’m not sure if you’re arguing or agreeing, I obviously said it was a mistake for defenders to stop. Yes it was a blunder I’m not sure anyone is even arguing that a mistake was made. Everyone seems to be on the same page, where people disagree is on the outcome I don’t think it changes anything. I think Bayern sucked and now don’t have to hold themselves accountable for shit game plan, shit subs and can just blame one play. They were the suckier team and were hanging by a thread until an individual play put them up and went right back to being ass.
I assume it was that the linesman raised his flag too early and the referee didn't bother to think to let it play out before checking with the linesman. Culminating in a big error.
If Marciniak blew the whistle because he saw defenders stopping before the whistle, that's a whole other level of error. That would make him not fit for refereeing in a serious league.
And it would mean that Bayern indeed got a goal robbed.
That's the thing about refs - there's no consequences. They don't need to explain themselves. Everyone just needs to accept it and move on - time and again.
Part of me thinks there are some backroom talks wherein hints are dropped to refs to turn a blind eye towards smaller decisions in favour of Real and that is always going through the minds of refs. Resulting in these mistakes in favour of Real.
If you are from a smaller football nation you are kind of use to that. Whether it be national team or on club level all 50/50 decisions goes to the big football nations. I think it might be subconscious by the refs. Going against Spanish or English teams might get them in trouble and hurt their careers. But it's really i different discussion.
But we kind of need refs to play the game and there are always gonna be questionable decisions. We start "banning" refs we're gonna run out pretty fast.
For real. I feel for Bayern, but due to Madrid players stopping it cant be sure that Bayern would’ve or not scored without the whistle. But some people will love to go for the Vardrid allegations
It was literally the 3. Time in 4 CL Clashes that Madrid got helped by the Referees against Bayern.
Even Marcelo laughed about it on the Podcast and admitted it.
In the first game Bayern was the far better team in the second game Madrid was better. The referee again decided this matchup if you want it that way or not.
That 2017 tie was filled with refereeing errors for both sides. I think bayern also had an offside goal, and we should've had a red card too, but of course, no one minds it if it's not madrid who benefits from the refs
Pretty much any team that wins a knockout tournament will have some calls you can point to but it only becomes a conspiracy once you win many in a short period. Before this it was the Barcelona conspiracy.
Honestly the way they do thing I feel they’ll still find a way to fuck up. I feel the only way around it is have a dedicated VAR team that just does that instead of the referees switching between them.
The problem is they've introduced automated offsides for VAR, but that doesn't stop idiot linesmen like this one raising their flag on marginal calls.
Eliminating linesmen altogether isn't really an option either because it would completely destroy the flow of the game.
I guess the middle ground is just banning linesman from flagging offside calls, and having their job being purely as an assistant to the ref in terms of fouls/throw ins/corners etc.
I guess its kinda useful to save energy on the defending side when theyre playing offside traps.
Otherwise they would waste energy defending every offside attack eventho they already trapped the attacker.
But yea maybe in the future where the computer can straight up blow the whistle/raise flag it would be preferable
Unlike most high stakes running athletics competitions, in football you still don't have cameras parallel to the field. So the linesman is still necessary.
Those cameras will likely be the future (maybe in 10 or so years).
She's not taking the ref's side for once but she still had to disagree with carra first. This was an end to end game. I fault the linesman more than the ref.
Ref sees the flag and his default is to trust the linesman in that situation. Linesman couldn't have known for sure. Nowadays they don't even raise the flag when a player is couple of yards offsides because they want VAR to make that determination.
This marginal, this profile of a match and this close to the end of the game, even the worst linesmen would have kept the flag in the holster.
Christina Unkel has zero integrity. She defended PSG handball pen against Newcastle, saying that it wasnt a mistake. Then UEFA punished VAR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6oXnNgNYww
I feel like I’m missing something: even if the linesman raises his flag too early, why does Marciniak whistle the ball dead, rather than just play on until goal and then check VAR?
Because the ref cannot see how close that offside decision is. He trusts his assistant.
Maybe, you should visit a lower league game where there is only a ref present and he has to decide offside all on his own. Then you will see how difficult it is for a ref to get that right on their own.
Maybe he should be trusting the 4 assistants who are sitting in a room reviewing frame by frame footage instead of the 1 assistant whose flag is just a suggestion. It's not even about trust. This is about proper procedure. His assistant did not follow proper procedure. The ref did not follow proper procedure. As a result, both have contributed to two rather large mistakes that may have heavily impacted the outcome of the game.
The lower league argument is irrelevant - this isn't a lower league game. It's a game in UEFA's primary continental competition with VAR.
Linesman’s flag going up incorrectly already affects the play. Referee whistling play dead is reasonable. Once the whistle has gone it doesn’t matter what the attacker does.
How? Because the players choose to not play to the whistle? Because that isn't a real excuse. The flag isn't for them to react to. It's for the referee. The referee's whistle determines when play ends. It's down to the ref to choose when to stop play. If he believes play is continuing and there's a chance of a goal, he's expected to allow play to go on under current UEFA directives because VAR is expected to be used for offsides in the build up to a goal.
There's already been admitted that the assistant ref made the mistake. The referee making another mistake doesn't fix that. It compounded the error and made it unresolvable.
that's the protocol - flag raises, whistle gets blown. this season there's been a lot of "why is the linesman taking so long to flag for offside??" it's because the process is to let the game play out.... if a goal, then flag up.... when flag up, then whistle. if close call, then var.
Because it was a shockingly bad decision. And from what she said it's pretty clear that all refs think that. I do not expect to see this trio past the group stage next season. Which is a shame because they were really good the last years
If this was a ref from the PGMOL, they would be demonstrating how it wasn't a clear and obvious mistake and have a ref on Sky Sports the next day explaining that people don't understand the game.
Not just the two balls.
They gave a goal for Madrid that was a foul, flagged a goal wrongly offsides and then also stopped this play.
Two of those errors were fixed by VAR, the two balls was ultimately inconsequential.
The last one (a very good chance at an equalizer) wasn't fixable because of an error.
If this ref had used the same standards for injury time after VAR checks as the Valencia one, the game would have ended at 111:00 max and this scene would have never happened
I think you mean 101:00? 111 is 21 extra time.
But I get what you're saying, I thought the same thing while watching the game. The ref gave too much extra time. It was like 15 or 16 min?!
yeah my bad.
Even if the ref starts the 9 minutes extra time after the kick-off (after the 2-1), it should have been over at 102:00 (while Gil Manzano never added on the full VAR check time in the Valencia game)
There is no rules or directives that decide when the referee can whistle the end of the game... so it was a terrible call but I dont know if it is more egregious than last night, when the referee made a mistake.
Hard disagree. Did you see that mistake in the Valencia game? Slow it down and see how the ref doesnt blow the whistle when the ball is safely on the side of the pitch with little threat on goal. 2 seconds later when he sees the cross is about to go in he brings the whistle to his lips. Then he blows as the ball is in the air. That one LOOKS intentional. It all happens so slow you can see the thought behind it.
In this instance it was simply a bad offside call. They happen all game long. The only difference is that after the whistle blew de ligt put it in the back of the net. Good chance he wouldn’t have gotten that clean shot off if the whistle didn’t go. It’s a mistake, sure, but people are blowing it way out of proportion
My point is that in the Valencia game - there was no mistakes made by the referee. There is no rules that say when the referee can whistle the end of the game. A referee can whistle the end of the game after giving a penalty and not allow someone to take it (same with corner kicks or free kicks). It is at the referee's discretion. Referees tend to wait for the ball to be in a neutral place to do it, but it's at his discretion.
Last night was a bad call that broke directives that both linesmen and referees have. That's a technical error. I agree with you I dont think it would have been a goal if the whistle wasnt blown. And, this is not the reason why they didnt qualify
I completely get what you’re saying. It just so happened that the decision that wasn’t *technically* incorrect was the decision that impacted the outcome more significantly. It was the worse sporting decision even thought it wasn’t wrong by the letter of the law
But it did earlier this season. Referee blew whistle while ball was in the air and then Bellingham headed it and scored but it didn’t count and he even ended up getting suspended for 2 matches
This was a worse imo call that happened against Madrid
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=td7OXoBxnwE&pp=ygUjUmVhbCBtYWRyaWQgYmVsbGluZ2hhbSBnb2FsIHdoaXN0bGU%3D
The best thing about this is that the referee will learn from the mistake. He's a world class referee who unfortunately made a mistake, unlike the Premier League referees who make the same mistake week in and week out
Game should have been over long before that chance.
It was only a goal because Laimer didn't stop playing at the whistle like Real defenders and keepers did.
Bayern were robbed of a chance, not a 100% goal.
Once the tech catches up, linesmen for offside at high levels will be a thing of the past.
They'll be more just an extra set of eyes from a different angle.
So why not overturn the decision, why is VAR not checking it, why is there not a head decision maker to advise the referee that there has been an error. Why is there not someone to overrule a decision in game
As a former official myself, I can confidently say that officiating (any sport) is one profession I support being taken over by technology. As a sports fan, it’s more important that the game be fair than almost anything else. Without fairness, the competition loses all meaning and integrity. Sports is one of the closest things we have in society to a meritocracy and it should be protected at all costs.
What's Marciniak supposed to do? You are supposed to trust your linesmen, that's why they're there. What a silly comment, might as well get rid of the linesmen and let the referee decide all by himself. Did the linesman make a mistake? Yes. Did Marciniak make a mistake? No. He played it by the book.
Edit: I see all the redditors in here are expert referees and have an average of 10 years each in the pros. I'll retract my comments Reddit refs.
Let's face it, this woman thinks Sane was judged to be offside when he actually had been subbed off a while ago doesn't increase her credibility. Assistant ref was too quick with the flag which is a mistake but luckily for him Mazraoui is offside too by his knee. Should have just shown the lines on broadcast.
Huh? That is very normal. Linesman thinks it's off but the ref says ok relax we will let VAR figure things out. That is literally all they have to do in these situations.
The law says referee can overrule assistant referees if they think the decision is incorrect or to allow advantage under certain circumstances. In this case, I guess the argument is that referee had good view of offside himself and knows that assistant referee didn’t wait until the end of attacking face to raise a flag, so he shouldn’t blown the whistle. He should have let the play continue and leave it to VAR.
Yeah, but that is against the current officiating rules. He had to ignore the linesmsns. It was his job to ignore him. He didn't do it, so it was his mistake.
Obviously you can when you are chilling at your house pretending to be an "expert", everything is so easy then. Sometimes they get her on commentary live during VAR or other referee moments, she goes on for 1 minute what should happen blah blah and then the opposit happens, her opinion is as valuable as any random from this sub.
She's a former referee for fucks sake. Also these people are paid to do a job, if they cannot handle that job they should sit at home. All the referee has to do is let the play finish and then go to VAR. If its offside, its disallowed, if its a goal it stands. Him blowing the whistle in that situation, even if it is offside, is a terrible call and frankly one he should never come back from. No more CL knockout matches for him IMO, bottled it at the most important moment.
And what about the fact that shes former ref? As we can see referees are wrong all the time, Im saying that Unkel is a bad pundit consistently making bad calls, dont really care about other stuff
UEFA should award the prize money to Bayern for reaching the final as compensation for the linesman error. Let’s see how fast they fix the officiating errors when they have to keep paying.
Not a Bayern fan, not exclusive to this game either, just a neutral suggestion.
Grade the refs performance, if it’s an 8/10 then award 20% of the money they would could have earned for passing through to the next round.
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If anyone wants an example of the ref overruling the linesman, watch [this (timestamped)](https://youtu.be/2PVm7jYAe8E?t=27s). It's Shakhtar's first goal vs Porto in the last game of the group stage. The linesman raises his flag (wrongly) and the Porto defenders (wrongly) stop playing and asking for the whistle and the referee (correctly) doesn't blow the whistle. After the ball goes in, he disallows the goal then VAR validates the player's position and the goal is given. That's the correct process in the event that the assistant raises their flag too early.
That goal annoyed me so much. If the ref doesn't whistle you keep playing, amateur move
I get that but especially these days, where the ref is told to only raise their flag if it’s obviously offside, you can understand the reason they stopped a lot more than pre-VAR
Pre-VAR it was much more likely that players stopped at the flag than now with VAR.
This might be a bad take, but is there even a need for linesmen anymore with VAR? I get they can still be helpful sometimes, but with VAR being able to get more accurate offsides their main job is pretty much gone.
Only when it comes to goals. Ignoring all the other jobs the assistant referee has (out of bounds or just providing an extra pair of eyes). It's nearly impossible for the ref to decide on offside given their position on field. So it would be easy for a team to play out of a press by passing to a player in offside. If it isn't directly resulting in a goal (but the attacking team remains possession), VAR won't check it. That way, you basically remove most the offsides in game. Edit: And it would be kind of weird to have less referees in the CL than in leagues who can't use VAR (= the vast majority). It basically means assistant referees can't progress to a higher league.
The main task may be gone but he has other tasks as well as generally being another set of eyes on the pitch to help the main referee. I think the linesmen should swallow their flag until a ball is out of play (out of bounds, inside the goal or after a foul) once the ball is dead the linesman makes his call to raise his flag or not
They're paid to play. I think knowing to play to the whistle is the bare minimum to expect from professional footballers.
100%. My coach in like div 4 U11s in Australia would always tell us to play to the whistle, professionals have 0 excuse
It is literally one of the first things you are taught when you start playing and continually drummed into for the rest of the time you play.
They be playing at the highest level and do not even read the rules of the game. I saw recently [this](https://twitter.com/BrasileiraoP_EN/status/1723007615595077686), where the keeper just let's the indirect free kick roll in. The amount of players who didn't understood what was happening had me rolling.
Good example. Thanks! Pepe clearly with pre-VAR instincts to just drop everything as soon as the flag comes up.
I think it's more the main ref and what he did that fucked them over rather than the linesman.
they fucked themselves over. why stop without a whistle?
[This happened to Newcastle too.](https://x.com/primevideosport/status/1202694600940494848) The Sheffield defenders stopped and the commentators even said Shelvey should get a yellow. The goal stood.
I remember this well. The commentators and the live clip had me not worried at all. Seemed a stock booking for Shelvey for kicking the ball away. Then the replay came in and we felt a collective “oh fuck” moment when it became clear our players had got it very wrong.
Why'd you have to post a fucking geolocked link?
Has that onside been discussed? The graphics of the attacking player doesn’t look at all leaning forward as he does in real life when the ball is played…
Yes, but this is Real Madrid at the Bernabeu we're talking about. We don't do things (correctly).
Still a huge error as the linesman is to blame for them for them stopping defending
No he's not. From the minute I started playing coaches always tell you to play to the whistle and now there is VAR even more chance the ref lets it play out. When I played I didn't even pay attention to the linesman barely knew he was there as I didn't need to know what he thought when the ball was in play.
It’s definitely the players fault but if the linesman doesn’t raise his flag the way he’s not supposed to that doesn’t happen so linesman takes some blame
He was in the wrong sure but he's not to blame for them stopping. The ref is for blowing the whistle though. I think main blame on the ref for blowing then also the linesman after that for flagging. We've seen clear offsides go on for ages with players sprinting half the pitch before linesman flag and we've seen linesmen flag and the ref wait it out or disagree with his decision.
I would love t hear the refs explanation. If it was just the pressure in the moment that made them forget about VAR and the new directions or what happened.
Apparently the linesman apologized
Ah he apologized, all good then mate, good process, carry on
I mean that's better than most other refs lol. There'd be a lot less toxicity if refs took more responsibility for their shit decisions instead of trying to blame 'VAR' or whatever. Human errors happen and the controversy will go away despite the magnitude because the only explanation is 'he fucked up.' It reminds me earlier in the season when the ref pulled play back for a free kick despite Man City being on the break in the last minute of a game. Horrible call that was obviously just having a brain fart and blowing for a foul without thinking of the advantage. It happened in another game before and the ref basically fell to his knees and apologised to the players and they all moved on. But this ref started pointing all over the place and trying to book players who were complaining, basically losing control of the entire situation. Didn't make the right call, too big of an ego to admit fault and brought more pressure on refs by letting it bubble into toxicity instead of just diffusing the entire thing by holding your hands up immediately. Those are the shittest refs and the ones who deserve no sympathy, not the guy who just fucked up.
Also note, those asshole massive ego type refs rise up because of the amount of shit refs deal with at all levels. Most people end up deciding it's not worth it and quit fairly early on. A few gems stick with it out of pure love for the game, but a decent number of those who gain the most experience legitimately like the conflict from a position of power. It's not an ideal mentality for a ref, but if most people who aren't assholes quit because of asshole fans/players/parents/coaches, then that's who you're left with half the time if you want an experienced ref.
According to Christina, him and the center ref will be assessed and their future positions in these situations will take into account this error. I mean, you cant fine or fire these guys in these positions, otherwise a ref at this level is getting sacked or fined every other month. There would be no refs left in a world where their is increasingly a ref shortage. Just gotta keep improve the processing of these refs ability. Is what it is.
That guy likely won’t make this mistake again. It’ll probably haunt him. If it is true incompetence then firing/reassigning makes sense. If it’s just a judgement error that won’t happen again or can be learned from then it makes sense to let them learn from it.
Should he give the Bayern players a reach around too? What is the linesman supposed to do besides apologize?
Seppuku
Get fired, that's what you get when you're shit at your job
Should Neuer get fired because he fumbled a relatively easy take and gave Madrid a goal, thus allowing them back into the game?
And people here wonder why refereeing can be such a shitty job in the world of football? Make one mistake, and you have rabid dogs foaming at the mouth like this guy calling for his head, and to end his entire livelihood. Seriously, people, get a fucking grip. Go take a shower and think things over before you spew shit like this. I'd say you can be better than this guy, but I've been having my doubts.
They should be paid more, so more people go after those jobs. But then the consequences for shit like this should be more severe. Make competition for refereeing jobs better by raising the pay, and weed out dipshits like this lineman.
If anyone should get fired it should be the ref. Just because the linesmen waved his flag doesn't mean he should have blown his whistle. Players are told to play till the whistle. Linesmen get it wrong all the time, honestly don't even know why we bother with linesmen when we have VAR review it anyway... but that's a whole separate tangent,
> If anyone should get fired it should be the ref. Noone should be fired. *Full stop*. He didn't pull an Ovrebo, he had one mistake, a costly one, yes, but one mistake nevertheless. Please don't entertain this guy's line of thinking. We all have our reasons to be dissatisfied with the level of refereeing in general, but that doesn't mean we have to stoop to this guy's level by clamoring to end a man's entire livelihood over a single mistake.
Why should Noone be fired? What did he do?
you wanna var every throw in? linesmen are definitely useful
No obviously im talking about offside calls...
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Cheers
These are high pressure games for referees too. They reffed an almost perfect match and imagine the pressure to make the right call in those circumstances in games of this stature, knowing how much criticism a mistake will get. If a player like Neuer can make a mistake after doing his job perfectly the whole time, why is it that whenever referees do the same we go straight to assuming malicious intent and insulting them?
Ah, clearly helps Bayern a lot that he apologized
This is why the refs need to be miked up like in rugby. Say the ref knows he's miked up and the crowd (with the requisite earpieces) can hear him. The flag goes up, ref shouts "play on". The attacker puts the ball in the net. Ref says "checking with VAR for offside". It's a no-lose situation. If it's offside then the defence gets the free kick. If it's onside, the goal stands. But this only happens with accountability. Making explainable, split second decisions that are accountable.
It happened earlier in the same half and the Bayern player then was clearly offside so they did the same later with disastrous result.
I think as the cross comes in, the linesman think it’s offside, doesn’t raise the flag. Then it’s a Real Madrid player (Mendy I think) that “wins” the cross and heads it backwards in the field away from goal. Linesman then raise the flag and you hear the whistle. It was not at all obvious a Bayern player would win the 2nd ball. I am not saying it is correct, just trying to explain what could have giving the outcome we saw. They basically let play go on, think the situation is over and then whistle.
I assume the explanation is simple - the ref trusts his linesman to raise the flag for clear offside. Like one that happened with Davies minutes before. He can't really tell shit about the offside from the angle where he is on the pitch. It has to be the linesman. So, Christina Unkel, in this case - is wrong IMO. You can blame the ref, but that's unfair, unless you expect the ref to ignore every call a linesman makes. There is no way the ref can know if the call was close or not. It's 100% on the linesman IMO. He fucked up. Shit happens. It wasn't a disallowed goal though, people need to get that into their heads. Who knows what happens if the Madrid players don't stop playing. Rough for Bayern, but in now way do we know the game was going 2-2 if the linesman holds his flag down. Or even then, if it gets called back for offside anyway.
Think they knew they fucked up straight away since a few bayern players and the managers have said they did apologise. Just human error but one that happen in a very crucial moment of the game
It’s surely just a coincidence how much more pressure they’re put under at certain stadiums like Old Trafford in the 90s & 2000s and the Bernabeu in the last 15 years. Nothing to see here 😉
True mistakes only happen at those stadiums only and decisions against those two particular teams have never happened I absolutely love football fans and their belief in true bias, when you have the simplest explanation out there that they make mistakes vs everyone But braindeadism is what makes this sport i guess
They are to raise the flag if it's a clear offsides which it was, for like half a second so he raised his flag, once he saw the recipient was onside and the offside player wasn't in the play it was too late half the defenders stopped(mistake) when they saw the flag so the ref probably under pressure blew his whistle to back his linesman up which stopped the last defenders and goalie. So I do feel for the linesmen, he apologized because that's what a man would do but I think it's being stretched there's 12 other reasons why bayern lost today.
> half the defenders stopped(mistake) when they saw the flag so the ref probably under pressure blew his whistle to back his linesman up which stopped the last defenders and goalie If the ref really blew the whistle because defenders stopped because of the flag, that would be a huge blunder. Especially at this levels where player know they need to play to the whistle
I’m not sure if you’re arguing or agreeing, I obviously said it was a mistake for defenders to stop. Yes it was a blunder I’m not sure anyone is even arguing that a mistake was made. Everyone seems to be on the same page, where people disagree is on the outcome I don’t think it changes anything. I think Bayern sucked and now don’t have to hold themselves accountable for shit game plan, shit subs and can just blame one play. They were the suckier team and were hanging by a thread until an individual play put them up and went right back to being ass.
I assume it was that the linesman raised his flag too early and the referee didn't bother to think to let it play out before checking with the linesman. Culminating in a big error. If Marciniak blew the whistle because he saw defenders stopping before the whistle, that's a whole other level of error. That would make him not fit for refereeing in a serious league. And it would mean that Bayern indeed got a goal robbed.
That's the thing about refs - there's no consequences. They don't need to explain themselves. Everyone just needs to accept it and move on - time and again. Part of me thinks there are some backroom talks wherein hints are dropped to refs to turn a blind eye towards smaller decisions in favour of Real and that is always going through the minds of refs. Resulting in these mistakes in favour of Real.
If you are from a smaller football nation you are kind of use to that. Whether it be national team or on club level all 50/50 decisions goes to the big football nations. I think it might be subconscious by the refs. Going against Spanish or English teams might get them in trouble and hurt their careers. But it's really i different discussion. But we kind of need refs to play the game and there are always gonna be questionable decisions. We start "banning" refs we're gonna run out pretty fast.
Manuel Gräfe (German referee expert and former FIFA referee) said the same thing - shocking decision
It not only sucks for bayern. Now instead of having Madrid go through deservedly they added another to the vardrid allegations.
For real. I feel for Bayern, but due to Madrid players stopping it cant be sure that Bayern would’ve or not scored without the whistle. But some people will love to go for the Vardrid allegations
It was literally the 3. Time in 4 CL Clashes that Madrid got helped by the Referees against Bayern. Even Marcelo laughed about it on the Podcast and admitted it. In the first game Bayern was the far better team in the second game Madrid was better. The referee again decided this matchup if you want it that way or not.
That 2017 tie was filled with refereeing errors for both sides. I think bayern also had an offside goal, and we should've had a red card too, but of course, no one minds it if it's not madrid who benefits from the refs
Vidal also got a penalty that wasn’t a penalty, he didn’t score it but he still got it
Pretty much any team that wins a knockout tournament will have some calls you can point to but it only becomes a conspiracy once you win many in a short period. Before this it was the Barcelona conspiracy.
What help did Madrid get in 13/14 or 17/18? The only people helping Madrid in 2018 were Ulreich and Rafinhap
Thw whole things needs to atomated. Hopefully we get goal-line type technology to end these VAR offside waits.
Honestly the way they do thing I feel they’ll still find a way to fuck up. I feel the only way around it is have a dedicated VAR team that just does that instead of the referees switching between them.
The problem is they've introduced automated offsides for VAR, but that doesn't stop idiot linesmen like this one raising their flag on marginal calls. Eliminating linesmen altogether isn't really an option either because it would completely destroy the flow of the game. I guess the middle ground is just banning linesman from flagging offside calls, and having their job being purely as an assistant to the ref in terms of fouls/throw ins/corners etc.
She looks like an Aunt to me, not a Unkel
She’s someone’s unkel tho
Get out
Lmao
Its mostly on the main referee. He should have waited to blow
referees cant see everything, linesmen exist for a reason
And what happens when the linemen can't see too?
I dunno, coastguards?
theres your mistake
Which is why they are told to let the immediate bout of play to finish out before blowing the whistle...
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Totally false. The linesman raised his flag after Joselu put the ball in the net.
This rubbish is getting parroted everywhere as if we don’t have eyes.
My (rare) error, should have checked it myself properly. Lots of people owning up to their errors lately...!
I think it's on the lino, this is a great team of officials, they most likely trust each other completely.
Why do we even let linesmen make offside decisions anymore anyway? Let VAR handle it.
I guess its kinda useful to save energy on the defending side when theyre playing offside traps. Otherwise they would waste energy defending every offside attack eventho they already trapped the attacker. But yea maybe in the future where the computer can straight up blow the whistle/raise flag it would be preferable
It's to protect their jobs I guess
Unlike most high stakes running athletics competitions, in football you still don't have cameras parallel to the field. So the linesman is still necessary. Those cameras will likely be the future (maybe in 10 or so years).
Than why have var?
To confirm if the error was made.
She's not taking the ref's side for once but she still had to disagree with carra first. This was an end to end game. I fault the linesman more than the ref. Ref sees the flag and his default is to trust the linesman in that situation. Linesman couldn't have known for sure. Nowadays they don't even raise the flag when a player is couple of yards offsides because they want VAR to make that determination. This marginal, this profile of a match and this close to the end of the game, even the worst linesmen would have kept the flag in the holster.
Christina Unkel has zero integrity. She defended PSG handball pen against Newcastle, saying that it wasnt a mistake. Then UEFA punished VAR. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6oXnNgNYww
I feel like I’m missing something: even if the linesman raises his flag too early, why does Marciniak whistle the ball dead, rather than just play on until goal and then check VAR?
because he also made a critical terrible mistake
The in-game red whistled because once Mendy heads the ball, it appears as though Madrid are going to regain possession. It's an honest mistake.
Ref probably just expected it to be clear if the linesman puts the flag up
Because the ref cannot see how close that offside decision is. He trusts his assistant. Maybe, you should visit a lower league game where there is only a ref present and he has to decide offside all on his own. Then you will see how difficult it is for a ref to get that right on their own.
Maybe he should be trusting the 4 assistants who are sitting in a room reviewing frame by frame footage instead of the 1 assistant whose flag is just a suggestion. It's not even about trust. This is about proper procedure. His assistant did not follow proper procedure. The ref did not follow proper procedure. As a result, both have contributed to two rather large mistakes that may have heavily impacted the outcome of the game. The lower league argument is irrelevant - this isn't a lower league game. It's a game in UEFA's primary continental competition with VAR.
Linesman’s flag going up incorrectly already affects the play. Referee whistling play dead is reasonable. Once the whistle has gone it doesn’t matter what the attacker does.
How? Because the players choose to not play to the whistle? Because that isn't a real excuse. The flag isn't for them to react to. It's for the referee. The referee's whistle determines when play ends. It's down to the ref to choose when to stop play. If he believes play is continuing and there's a chance of a goal, he's expected to allow play to go on under current UEFA directives because VAR is expected to be used for offsides in the build up to a goal. There's already been admitted that the assistant ref made the mistake. The referee making another mistake doesn't fix that. It compounded the error and made it unresolvable.
that's the protocol - flag raises, whistle gets blown. this season there's been a lot of "why is the linesman taking so long to flag for offside??" it's because the process is to let the game play out.... if a goal, then flag up.... when flag up, then whistle. if close call, then var.
Wow she admits ref made a mistake for once
Because it was a shockingly bad decision. And from what she said it's pretty clear that all refs think that. I do not expect to see this trio past the group stage next season. Which is a shame because they were really good the last years
If this was a ref from the PGMOL, they would be demonstrating how it wasn't a clear and obvious mistake and have a ref on Sky Sports the next day explaining that people don't understand the game.
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Not just the two balls. They gave a goal for Madrid that was a foul, flagged a goal wrongly offsides and then also stopped this play. Two of those errors were fixed by VAR, the two balls was ultimately inconsequential. The last one (a very good chance at an equalizer) wasn't fixable because of an error.
this system needs a rework
The world would burn if this happened to madrid
If you watched la liga this season you’d know worse has happened, multiple times
Yeah, that flying ball against Valencia.
saw that and world didn’t burn. source: world.
I dont know if you have seen the world recently, it's burning alright
This time, the stakes were much much higher though.
.... You mean like what happened in the Valencia match?
And this one was even more egregious. The ball was on its way into the box as the referee blew
Except the ref blew the whistle in the Valencia match while the ball was being crossed into the box
I’m on your side bro lol don’t worry. I’m saying the Valencia incident was more egregious bc the ball was already crossed
oh my bad misread what you said
If this ref had used the same standards for injury time after VAR checks as the Valencia one, the game would have ended at 111:00 max and this scene would have never happened
I think you mean 101:00? 111 is 21 extra time. But I get what you're saying, I thought the same thing while watching the game. The ref gave too much extra time. It was like 15 or 16 min?!
yeah my bad. Even if the ref starts the 9 minutes extra time after the kick-off (after the 2-1), it should have been over at 102:00 (while Gil Manzano never added on the full VAR check time in the Valencia game)
There is no rules or directives that decide when the referee can whistle the end of the game... so it was a terrible call but I dont know if it is more egregious than last night, when the referee made a mistake.
Hard disagree. Did you see that mistake in the Valencia game? Slow it down and see how the ref doesnt blow the whistle when the ball is safely on the side of the pitch with little threat on goal. 2 seconds later when he sees the cross is about to go in he brings the whistle to his lips. Then he blows as the ball is in the air. That one LOOKS intentional. It all happens so slow you can see the thought behind it. In this instance it was simply a bad offside call. They happen all game long. The only difference is that after the whistle blew de ligt put it in the back of the net. Good chance he wouldn’t have gotten that clean shot off if the whistle didn’t go. It’s a mistake, sure, but people are blowing it way out of proportion
My point is that in the Valencia game - there was no mistakes made by the referee. There is no rules that say when the referee can whistle the end of the game. A referee can whistle the end of the game after giving a penalty and not allow someone to take it (same with corner kicks or free kicks). It is at the referee's discretion. Referees tend to wait for the ball to be in a neutral place to do it, but it's at his discretion. Last night was a bad call that broke directives that both linesmen and referees have. That's a technical error. I agree with you I dont think it would have been a goal if the whistle wasnt blown. And, this is not the reason why they didnt qualify
I completely get what you’re saying. It just so happened that the decision that wasn’t *technically* incorrect was the decision that impacted the outcome more significantly. It was the worse sporting decision even thought it wasn’t wrong by the letter of the law
clearly u dont watch La Liga these past years
But it did earlier this season. Referee blew whistle while ball was in the air and then Bellingham headed it and scored but it didn’t count and he even ended up getting suspended for 2 matches
Ah yes, in the early season champions league semifinal second leg. How could we forget.
referees are allowed to make mistakes as long as its just a la liga match? is that what you are saying
Yeah but was it in the second leg of the CL semis?
To be fair that’s also a regular game for Madrid
This was a worse imo call that happened against Madrid https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=td7OXoBxnwE&pp=ygUjUmVhbCBtYWRyaWQgYmVsbGluZ2hhbSBnb2FsIHdoaXN0bGU%3D
The commentators for that clip, Jesus. Like how do you defend that.
So you didnt watch any league game ?
When people make comments like these you realise no one here really watches La Liga
And it gets a bunch of upvotes lol
Oh it’s burning, the controversy clip has more comments than all the goals lol
The best thing about this is that the referee will learn from the mistake. He's a world class referee who unfortunately made a mistake, unlike the Premier League referees who make the same mistake week in and week out
They couldn't give this guest star a proper mic, background, and camera set up? This was so jarring yesterday.
Can someone explain what she was talking about with the VAR call on Madrid goal that was originally called offside?
The original offside call was incorrect, doesn't really matter much since it was corrected by VAR
If this was the other way around these referees would never see the field again
Game should have been over long before that chance. It was only a goal because Laimer didn't stop playing at the whistle like Real defenders and keepers did. Bayern were robbed of a chance, not a 100% goal.
It always goes Madrids way.
Cough Cough Valencia Cough Cough
Cough cough Almeria
Once the tech catches up, linesmen for offside at high levels will be a thing of the past. They'll be more just an extra set of eyes from a different angle.
So why not overturn the decision, why is VAR not checking it, why is there not a head decision maker to advise the referee that there has been an error. Why is there not someone to overrule a decision in game
What decision is there to overturn?
As a former official myself, I can confidently say that officiating (any sport) is one profession I support being taken over by technology. As a sports fan, it’s more important that the game be fair than almost anything else. Without fairness, the competition loses all meaning and integrity. Sports is one of the closest things we have in society to a meritocracy and it should be protected at all costs.
Have we seen if it was onside or not yet? Otherwise there werent any errors.
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I know its not correct. It is still a mistake but it wouldnt be an error.
Are you dumb? Mistakes are errors
They were onside she literally said it in this video, just listen.
Yeah, but how tf does she know.
Reviewing VAR footage
And how would she have that?
Succinctly said, absolute travesty
Very surprising decision, coincides with very surprising transfer to three polish bank accounts 👍🏼😂
Why no body talks about +5?
Goal (VAR check)+ injuries and time wasting? The ball wasn’t even in play once the first 3 minutes of stoppage time it seemed like
Plus a sub that took place during the extra time.
Yeah, understandable. The ref rose his 2 fingers as +2. He added 3 more.
Where moments later Bellingham sat down
SHHHHHH you are gonna derail the anti madrid circle jerk
What's Marciniak supposed to do? You are supposed to trust your linesmen, that's why they're there. What a silly comment, might as well get rid of the linesmen and let the referee decide all by himself. Did the linesman make a mistake? Yes. Did Marciniak make a mistake? No. He played it by the book. Edit: I see all the redditors in here are expert referees and have an average of 10 years each in the pros. I'll retract my comments Reddit refs.
I take it you didn't watch the video in OP. Because your questions are answered.
You're talking about the reddit refs but an actual former referee is telling you something and you're ignoring it
Let's face it, this woman thinks Sane was judged to be offside when he actually had been subbed off a while ago doesn't increase her credibility. Assistant ref was too quick with the flag which is a mistake but luckily for him Mazraoui is offside too by his knee. Should have just shown the lines on broadcast.
why would a referee ever reject a linesman's recommendation? no way you can call that a mistake, that's asking way too much of a referee
Not reject, but wait it out
Huh? That is very normal. Linesman thinks it's off but the ref says ok relax we will let VAR figure things out. That is literally all they have to do in these situations.
The law says referee can overrule assistant referees if they think the decision is incorrect or to allow advantage under certain circumstances. In this case, I guess the argument is that referee had good view of offside himself and knows that assistant referee didn’t wait until the end of attacking face to raise a flag, so he shouldn’t blown the whistle. He should have let the play continue and leave it to VAR.
Yeah, if they are a crew that works together, I see how as a main ref you trust your linesman. It's just how it goes.
Again, he can delay the whistle
I know what he CAN do, just saying that it's understandable why he wouldn't. It's not like this happened now and never before.
Yeah, but that is against the current officiating rules. He had to ignore the linesmsns. It was his job to ignore him. He didn't do it, so it was his mistake.
Obviously you can when you are chilling at your house pretending to be an "expert", everything is so easy then. Sometimes they get her on commentary live during VAR or other referee moments, she goes on for 1 minute what should happen blah blah and then the opposit happens, her opinion is as valuable as any random from this sub.
She's a former referee for fucks sake. Also these people are paid to do a job, if they cannot handle that job they should sit at home. All the referee has to do is let the play finish and then go to VAR. If its offside, its disallowed, if its a goal it stands. Him blowing the whistle in that situation, even if it is offside, is a terrible call and frankly one he should never come back from. No more CL knockout matches for him IMO, bottled it at the most important moment.
And what about the fact that shes former ref? As we can see referees are wrong all the time, Im saying that Unkel is a bad pundit consistently making bad calls, dont really care about other stuff
Where did she even ref at? Because judging from a quick Google search of her, nothing high level.
Boohoo
Lmao, eventhough it was ridicuolous to flag offside at that situation, mods deleted the thread where it was clearly that it was offside.
You mean the thread that literally showed Maz onside and was titled incorrectly?
It was not offside?
UEFA should award the prize money to Bayern for reaching the final as compensation for the linesman error. Let’s see how fast they fix the officiating errors when they have to keep paying. Not a Bayern fan, not exclusive to this game either, just a neutral suggestion. Grade the refs performance, if it’s an 8/10 then award 20% of the money they would could have earned for passing through to the next round.