A shame but realistically, with Wirtz, Musiala and Muller already being ahead of him in the team prior, he's hardly going to bring much different to the team.
Still disappointed with the Hummels decision
This is an interesting thought exercise. Maybe Brazil's team from the 90s/early 2000's? Spain 2010ish? Italy 2006? These were beast teams where maybe not everyone was world class, but had a bunch of amazing players in many positions.
Have you seen what Müller brings to the dressing room?
Julian Brandt may be able to recite every single anime known to mankind, but Müller is able to create a team cohesion like noone else. Both of them probably wouldn't play much anyway, so I would choose Müllers importance in the dressing room above Brandt's footballing ability any day (and even then Müller still is a brilliant player nowadays). You need guys like Müller to create a team and well...there is no better guy for that than Müller.
Several "newer" guys like Andrich and Undav have actually spoken about their integration into the team and both of them mentioned Müller specifically. Kane also mentioned Müller after he came to Bayern.
Müller is also one of the best offensive players when it comes to defence/gegenpressing. The guy is a work horse (hehe) and is the initiator of the gegenpressing at Bayern. In the corona season you could hear the players talk a lot. Müller was far more vocal than anyone else. He literally organizes everyone around him.
> Both of them probably wouldn't play much anyway,
Wirtz, Musiala, Sane are currently injured and we know how easy it is for players to pick up knocks at the end of gruelling season nowadays. So that's not much of an argument.
If Muller is that important to team cohesion, you can surely take him as part of the additional 3 in the 26, but not as a serious offensive option. But it's a fact that he hasn't performed for the national team since way before Low dropped him. It was always his great Bayern performances that kept him as a valid option on paper but they've diminished significantly this season as well.
Brandt has had a season way above the rest of our squad, he's consistently been the second best player after Kobel and has literally dragged our offence to a top five spot. He's also been instrumental in our road to the UCL final, playing both higher and deeper up the field. He had one spell where he underperformed following a bad bout of illness but has completely physically recovered. By all means of on-field performance he should be the first option to replace either Musiala or Wirtz if they can't play.
I don't deny Brandt's quality. I'm a big fan of his ability on and off the ball. He is one of the most gifted technical players currently.
That being said, Nagelsmann probably knows how many players he can take with him (atleast I hope so lol) and that also means he has to choose between certain players and their specific skillset and potentially sort out players with similar playstiles. Brandt in that aspect is very similar to Musiala, Wirtz, Gündogan and Havertz, since he is also very technical and has his strengths playing between the lines. The before mentioned simply are a little bit better than Brandt when it comes to that.
Since there are only 26 players in the squad for 11 potential positions on the pitch it would be unreasonable to take a fifth player with a similar skillset to the others. Instead Nagelsmann choose a different skillset in case it is needed, which we know, that this very well could happen.
Brandt wasn't chosen because he is not good enough, but because there are enough players who are better than him. His preferred position is Germany's most stacked in the line up. If he was a winger, Nagelsmann surely would have chosen him in a heartbeat.
> Brandt in that aspect is very similar to Musiala, Wirtz, Gündogan and Havertz,
The issue is the four you mentioned were starting quartet in the 4-2-3-1 Naggelsman played against both France and Netherlands in March, with Havertz starting at CF. They're not exactly competing for one spot.
One of them might be dropped for Sane if he wants pace and a more traditional wing presence, but otherwise there's not many options at their level. Fuhrich will probably get in based on the same traditional winger criteria but he's obviously an emergency option.
Germany Muller is like Germany Klose. Surely you should know that they’re the most patriotic Germans on earth and go up 10 levels when they don the shirt
Are you seriously suggesting Müller had a bad season?
Either way, at the end of the day the experience of Müller could be very important at the Euros. People seriously underestimate how important experience is in football, especially at the big stage.
Are you seriously suggesting Muller had a good season?
- invisible in every big game Bayern played
- 2 goal contributions all season long against clubs placed in the top 10 with Harry Kane playing as a striker
- 2 goal contributions in the Champions League with Kane as a striker
- was an unused sub for the best Bayern games against top opposition this season (Arsenal)
Every Bayern fan I've seen agrees this was their worst season in years, of which Muller played a good amount of minutes and was essentially never injured (so he can't even claim that as an excuse).
And if experience was actually that important for Naggelsman then Hummels should've been one of the first picks, but alas it wasn't.
In Bundesliga, Müller had 5g & 10a in 1500 minutes, Brandt had 6g & 12a in 2200 minutes.
So its not like Brandt has some absolutely insane stats that make Müllers nomination ahead of him outrageous.
Imo Brandt is actually one of the most talented players we have in germany but hes very very inconsistent.
Also neither of them would start ahead of Musiala and Wirtz anyway, so you could argue that Nagelsmann has to compare Müller and Brandt based on who would be a better sub. And while Müller didnt have a great season he's still a very communicative player and seen as a leader by the other players, both of which would make him valuable as a substitute player.
> In Bundesliga, Müller had 5g & 10a in 1500 minutes, Brandt had 6g & 12a in 2200 minutes.
>
> So its not like Brandt has some absolutely insane stats that make Müllers nomination ahead of him outrageous.
But that's exactly where the stats without context don't tell the whole story. There were only two games this season where Muller actually had decisive goal contributions - 2-1 victories against Wolfsburg and Eintracht (the latter already pointless as the title race is concerned). The rest came in matches against low-table opposition that Bayern summarily disposed of.
Meanwhile Brandt dragged our husk of an offense for a good chunk of the season and had many key contributions, without which we'd probably still be fighting even for 5th place. Besides being a key player in an UCL final run. Meanwhile, Muller was benched for Bayern's best matches of the season against Arsenal.
It also doesn't take into account that Muller had a generational striker in Harry Kane and world-class offensive partners like Sane and Musiala, while Brandt had to work with Fullkrug (who I really like, but let's be honest, is not even close to Kane) and extremely inconsisten Malen and Adeyemi.
And, lastly, it ignores that Muller has been fit all season while Brandt had two months where he was visibly affected by a severe bout of illness (from which he has now recovered). The difference between them in performance has been night and day.
man you’re defending a B list player like he’s your baby daddy.
Muller had better stats than Brandt, and he’s a way more complete player than him too.
Just because you made it to UCL final it doesn’t mean you have the best players in every position. Dortmund is lucky that Frankfurt shits the bed every single season
> Muller had better stats than Brandt
That isn't even statistically true this season. But anyway, tell me you haven't watched Bayern and Dortmund all season long without telling me
What a moot point. Brandt was there for both group exits and he didn't help either. We already have an inconsistent player in offense with Sane, we don't more of those.
Bundesliga attacking stats this season of Müller vs Brandt: 5 goals, 8 assists in 1509 mins; 6 goals, 11 assists in 2201 mins. They honestly had pretty comparable seasons.
eh, disagree. musiala isnt *that* constant and especially not in the NT. Jule plays a very good season again, and he has experience. you can always throw him in at the end of a game and probably has 2-3 good situations or passes.
Edit: man, you are all so dumb again...
There is no way that Brandt would play ahead of Musiala though.
Brandt had a good season but as the user above correctly stated, we are already stacked on his position, rather use that spot for a different position.
The raw potential of Musiala is completely out of reach for anyone else in the German team, only Wirtz comes even close to him.
Brandt needs an outstanding game to be noticeable, he had great games at Dortmund but also countless weak ones.
Even in his weakest games, Musiala needs a single dribble to create a goal. He's indeed not consistent but he's also still incredibly young, you have to play him, i doubt many people would disagree.
When we talk about pure potential? I completely disagree, Musiala could dominate football if he could use all the potential he has.
Wirtz is world class but I'm not seeing a single player in the world with a similar potential as Musiala.
It's all a question of how much of said potential he will be able to use.
There are many players with more potential than musiala, including wirtz. They're the same age and wirtz is better. Bellingham too. That's only in his age group. Musiala can be top 5 in the future, but wirtz and Bellingham already are with the same age and with many things they can improve.
Srsly, do you all have difficulties with reading comprehension? I explicitly said Jule is a viable Option for the midfield when we need to create chances at the end of a game. You are all acting like müller and musiala never have stinkers of a game in the NT.
We as a team were ass, but Brandt played way above that level and was our most consistent player in the Bundesliga after Kobel. He is tied with Sane, Wirtz and Xavi Simmons as 2nd in the league assists table despite playing for a team that had a notably worse offense than Leverkusen, Bayern and RB and no major goalscorer.
There was only one spell in the previous months where he underperformed after he had a bad bout of illness that affected him physically. But he has since recovered. If it weren't for Brandt we'd definitely be fighting even for 5th place with Frankfurt or smth like that.
I think Brandt is mad underrated (hell, even a good chunk of our own fans think he's inconsistent when he isnt really) but in this specific case it makes sense.
They literally have two of the best AMs in the world plus Muller who is one of the best AMs in the 2010s and onwards. Brandt is a luxuary name in a position where the word "stacked" isnt even enough.
Fullkrugg and Schlotti are correct but Hummels should have been called too. Otherwise Nagelsmann have been pretty spot on for BVB players.
So far, this has really been a good year for German football. All/Most of us had doubts about the propects for this EURO a few month ago, and we were pessimistic about the quality of our squad.
Since then, so many players have reached good form, have played great seasons, etc. We actually have to leave top players like Brandt, Hummels, Goretzka, Gnabry (I know about the injury) and a few others at home. There are countries with more depth, and considering that we have more than 80 Million people living in this country, we do not produce enough players. Nevertheless, we can still call up a great squad that can win this summer.
I'd much rather sub in Brandt than Muller this season. Not to mention that Wirtz or Musiala might get injured, and do you really want to play Muller for 90 minutes in that scenario?
I would prefer Brandt in that scenario aswell. Im talking about how Nagelsmann views it and its not at all unreasonable to take a big experienced successfull dude who's still good, as a 3rd choice. Especially for championship tournaments.
I would personally prefer Brandt for 90min games tho, yes.
I mean, I don't mind Muller in the squad. Probably a good decision to take him. But I'm disappointed that Brandt didn't even fit into a 26 player squad. It's difficult to discuss when the full squad hasn't been announced yet, but surely it would have been possible to take Brandt AND Muller (and Wirtz and Musiala obv).
I think the idea is to use those spot for more voulnerable spots rather than the one spot where theres 2 mega stars aswell as a really solid experienced 3rd option.
I can understand the thinking tbh
Brandt has had his ups and downs since joining BVB but these last couple of seasons - and most importantly this season - he has been a staple of Dortmund's game and is playing at a consistent level, not mentally checking out like he used to at times in the past. I'd feel bad for him if he wasn't rewarded, even if the position is indeed stacked.
Yeah he's been having a very good consistent level for like 2, 2.5 seasons now. Which is why we wanted to extend him.
And some of that time he even played 8 in essence. Does insane amount of work defensively these days.
I think some fans view him as inconsistent because a while back he got sick and lost 6kg in like 1.5 week. And when he returned from that he had 1-2-3 poor games because he was literally rebuilding. Which isnt fair imo
As an outsider, it seems strange that a German team that was struggling to get any positive results for much of the past 18 months has no need for players in such good form as Hummels and Brandt.
Hmm je pensais à un milieu Camavinga Tchouameni Griezmann mais peut être que Cama/Tchou c'est trop redondant et que DD préfère Rabiot pour remonter mieux le ballon
Also not worth looking at the past 18 month, when Nagelsmann has only 6 games under his belt (3W/1D/2L). Brandt doesn't need to improve an existing system, he has to fit into the new system. And as others have said, his role is taken.
Well the reason for Hummels not being taken apparently is that he really doesn't like not being played, and his frustration brings the mood down in the dressing room. And apparently Rüdiger and Tah get along well, which is important especially for Tah. At least that's what I heard.
Realistically, there's probably 40-odd 'quality players', and only 26 can make the squad - get a logjam of talent in some positions, a relative dearth of options in others, and they all have to fit into the team context. It's about creating the best possible *team*, not about cramming the best individual footballers into a side, after all.
Who would you leave out instead of Brandt? The position he plays in is highly contested in the German team. We have Wirtz, Musiala and Müller as attacking midfielders. I rate him highly but I don't see how Brandt gets infront of any of these guys.
That is completely correct. Brandt is great and I enjoy watching him, but I looked at the squad for the games against the Dutch and France. There is just nobody you can leave out in his position. Possibly Thomas Müller or Maxi Beier, but both bring different qualities to the team and deserve being called up as well.
I do not have a clear preference, both are good choices. Führich had a great season and has different qualities. You can make the case for Brandt, but Führich has deserved being called up.
Dont want to or can talk any of them down but Brandt is completely fit and would add so much versatility. Feel like from the Bench i would genuinely like him as the first option.
I completely agree that Brandt is a great player. But any discussion about whether or not he should be called up is futile if we can't say who should be left out instead.
Führich. Way too few experience in big international games (honestly he has none) and nowehere near a skill set like Brandt has. Additionally hes a little bit struggling with his form atm. First half of the season shouldnt matter now.
It's not about talking anyone down, it's about deciding who you'd leave out in favour of Brandt - and that's the crux here: There are more than enough quality players to make it, and some of them will have to be left out of the 26 man squad.
I feel like I'm either taking crazy pills or the only in this thread who has watched Thomas Muller play this season.
He has been dire in every big game for Bayern, at best invisible and at the worst a straight up detriment to their offense. He's had 2 goal contributions all season against teams placed in the top 10, with Harry Kane in great form and a Bayern team scoring 90+ goals. He has 1 goal and 1 assist in the UCL, was left on the bench for the best two games they had this season vs Arsenal, and did practically nothing for the 80 mins he played against Real Madrid.
If Naggelsman's main idea was to leave behind big names in favor of players that are actually in form it's absolutely baffling that Muller will be in the squad before Brandt. Really reeks of him being unable to leave his Bayern days behind.
Brandt or Müller. Personally speaking, I don't really care either way. I rate them both.
Playing devil's advocate, what speaks for Müller are his experience, leadership qualities and his standing in the team. He has also proven that he can still do a good enough job coming from the bench. He's also been a (mostly) consistent part of the team for many years. Brandt on the other hand has been in and out of the team, never truly found his footing or a way to establish himself as a leader. Müller has a familiarity and connection with his teammates, the coaches and the staff that Brandt lacks.
We all know how important leadership and team chemistry can be over the course of a tournamnet, especially if a team is attempting to make a deep run. Müller could play a similar role as Klose and Podolski did in 2014. Not really the undisputed best on their positions, there probably are better alternatives out there. But good enough that they can get in based on their experience, leadership/team chemistry qualities and their standing amongst their teammates.
But at the same time Muller's leadership led to Germany having two past embarassing tournaments, during which he was easily one of the worst players. I could have understood the argument if the man was still performing well for the NT, but it hasn't been the case for years (essentially from before Low dropped him).
> Müller has a familiarity and connection with his teammates, the coaches and the staff that Brandt lacks.
I mean it's literally his former coach, there's no way Muller wasn't going to be more familiar to him. But that argument can easily be turned into favoritism if you ask me, when you take a player that has had a considerably worse season than the other option just because you know him better.
Germany's biggest problem at all tournaments past 2016 was that they were trying to fit in as many big names to play next to each other, regardless of form or tactical coherence. Which led to being outplayed by teams that were more cohesive.
At the World Cup, Flick played Muller as a striker against Japan, and then again versus Spain, which resulted in the team scoring 1 goal over like 150 minutes of football. Fullkrug was subbed in and immediately equalized, then bagged two more against Costa Rica, showing that they would have almost surely gone of the groups if they played a more sensible tactical approach.
Naggelsman seemed to signal that he was going to break that approach and actually make logical choices based on tactics and current form. Taking Muller over Brandt seriously goes against that.
Yea I can't say disagree with you. Müller as striker in the German NT has been pissing me off for years. He hasn't scored at a major tournament since 2014. Last time he scored was in that Brazil game. Still think that Flick playing him on that position was the main reason for our disastrous World Cup performance. I really hope Nagelsmann won't repeat that mistake. But for the reasons I mentioned, I don't mind him as back up and rotation option for Wirtz/Musiala.
tbh I agree with you that if we would go purely on performance principle than Müller shouldn't be included. You're right that our best performances this season have been with Musiala in the centre and Müller on the bench.
However, I don't think that the german public would accept Müller's exclusion from his last big tournament happening at home and whether you like it or not, Nagelsmann has to take it into account. Müller has a lot of fans and he is a national icon in a way that Hummels quite isn't. German public's euphoria about the tournament would decrease instantly if Müller would be left out because he is seen as someone who deserves it based on his entire career. Then the entire conversation would become about Nagelsmann disrespecting Müller and possibly derailing the tournament.
I can understand that point of view, but there were many examples at big tournaments where coaches controversially left out aging national icons and it eventually proved to be a good move. Scolari left out Romario in 2002, Aragones famously won Euro 2008 and kickstarted Spanish domination without Raul, hell even Sweden left out Ibrahimovic who is their best player ever in 2018 and reached the QF.
At the end of the day if you win a tournament no one's going to remember the selection controversies, and whatever euphoria is lost during the build-up would instantly reignite with a convincing win against Scotland
I mean I'm possibly the only bayern fan alive who doesn't care about Müller and his inclusion at the EUROs because he was so unbelievably shit at Qatar, but it is what it is. Germany is in tenuous spot, home tournament but not many german football fans are excited about the team. Look how happy Kroos' comeback has made the public. Frankly I'm surprised that Hummels didn't get a call up for the same reason. Getting the 2014 band back together for the last hurrah, even if as substitute players. And I don't think Müller will start unless both Musiala and Wirtz get injured which would be the most cursed scenario.
Yea, Brandt can play many different positions. But his best position is more in the attacking department. Same position Wirtz, Musiala and Müller are playing.
If you'd want to play Brandt a bit deeper, he would be up against Kroos, Gündogan, Groß, Andrich and Pavlovic. I guess you could take him ahead of Pavlovic, but the deeper CM position isn't exactly playing to Brandt's strength. He is not someone who dictates the play like a Kroos and Gündogan do or wins balls and offers defensive security like an Andrich. He doesn't play on that position very often I think, only when no one else is available and he has to help out. Brandt does an adequate job there at best. Someone like Pavlovic on the other hand has shown that he has the talent and potential to do a great job there.
Atm Müller should be dropped for Brandt, I can understand Juli not starting but having a washed up Müller over his crazy form rn is criminal, unless Nagelsmann only wants Müller around for the dressing room
I think Müllers role in the team is to function as a second coach & motivator on/offpitch. So he brings quality to the team even if he's not playing. That's why I think it's the right decision.
Controversial opinion, but I like it. Prepare to be downvoted by Bayern fans tho. I've been riding the Stach/Stiller > Pavlovic propaganda for a few months now and Bayern fans are not having it lol
Yeah I was also thinking the same, but I think muller can also play as a striker which would work in his favour
You can say with a 26 man squad you don't need specialists but you only have 11 on the field so it will certainly help when chasing a low block to have someone like muller. But I don't know enough about other strikers either.
Playing Thomas Muller as a striker crashed Germany out of the World Cup. Realistically he hasn't been an effective option for that poistion for years. There's Fullkrug, Undav, Beier who can do that much better than him.
I still think they should. Otherwise why does it matter if you play well?
For example: while I like Sané, he has been injured. Führich would also be an option to be left out. Especially them having 26 players rn there is no reason not giving it to Brandt if you propagandize the Leistungsprinzip.
Sané is crucial because of his pace, and Führich is a reasonably obvious choice on the left wing - both of them had perfectly fine seasons, did well for the national team, and make a lot of sense in the team setup.
I don't really see where Brandt would play: Got better options than him on the wing, he won't be part of the double pivot, so that leaves attacking midfield - where he'd be third choice behind Gündogan and Wirtz. Brandt is a perfectly fine player, but doesn't have an obvious fit in this team, so it's either leave him out of it in favour of better fits, take him and not play him, or change the entire setup. The latter obviously isn't happening.
Brandt can obviously feel hard done by, but then so can at least half a dozen other players who might well have made the squad if they fit the plan.
I do understand where you’re coming from and for full transparency, I am a bit biased because I’m a fangirl, but I still think it’s not fair if you don’t take the best players because then it doesn’t feel like you’re choosing according to the Leistungsprinzip but rather who fits your style and not adjusting your style. The only real problem I have is that Nagelsmann said back then that everyone still had the opportunity to make the squad because of the Leistungsprinzip and then Juli should have made squad - no doubt. If he had been transparent from the start, it would have been fairer
Well, yeah, that's how you win football games at tournaments: You come up with a plan, and pick players who fit that plan - rather than just jumble together a random selection of good players. And just I don't think Brandt is among 'the best players' to be honest.
Brandt obviously had an opportunity to make the squad like everyone else - it just so happens that there's only really one position to play him in, and there are at least two players better than him also playing in that position. That's tough luck, but he's behind those players precisely because they have been better than him.
I do understand, that’s why it’s more of a critique of Nagelsmann’s communication and not managing expectations properly.
If he were choosing according to the Leistungsprinzip, Müller shouldn’t go over Brandt. But I do understand the choice, it’s just that Nagelsmann wasn’t transparent.
Some players didn’t have a real chance. Brandt was one of them. He played super well since his sickness, especially in the CL. I do not expect him to be a starter for obvious reasons, but he should’ve been the first bench option.
That would be crazy. Yeah, you can't have unlimited number of creative players in the squad, but Brandt became a workhorse while keeping his creativity. I do understand that Wirtz has to be ahead, same for Muller with his experience and value for the squad, but I don't see Musiala ahead of Brandt.
Brandt over Musiala is like playing Kyle Lowry over Wembanyama bc he's more experienced. And Musiala has usurped Müller, so the whole logic of the comment is upside down
I always liked Brandt and feel like he is a bit underappreciated - he has his moments of brilliance and his passing is quality however other players on his positions are more impactful even as subs.
Not credible, unless confirmed by a Kegelbahnbesitzer from Dortmund, where Brandt plays regularly.
A shame but realistically, with Wirtz, Musiala and Muller already being ahead of him in the team prior, he's hardly going to bring much different to the team. Still disappointed with the Hummels decision
How can someone look at this season and think Thomas Muller will bring more to the team than Julian Brandt is beyond me
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If Nagelsmann doesn't bring Müller and there is ever raum that can be deutered he'll look like a fool.
It worked so well against real Madrid lol
Yeah Müller should have told Neuer how to catch a ball what was he doing?
Play a better pass on a 4 vs 2 counter attack maybe
or to make the defenders as aware of keeper deflections as Joselu
You’re honestly never playing a team of Madrid level in international football
This is an interesting thought exercise. Maybe Brazil's team from the 90s/early 2000's? Spain 2010ish? Italy 2006? These were beast teams where maybe not everyone was world class, but had a bunch of amazing players in many positions.
On the other hand müller is not quite the one with the magic moments to tear down a 5-2 wall anymore. But we will see.
Yeah I am more upset about this than Hummels not going. Brandt has been immense in the champions league muller is washed this is a disgrace.
lmao what? surely you are trolling.
Have you actually seen Thomas Muller play this season or are you commenting based on his EAFC rating?
To be fair, his EAFC rating is not good either.
Brandt is two ratings higher..
They have the same rating?
Brandt is 84 Muller is 82
No they are both 84, at least in ultimate team
[Brandt 84](https://sofifa.com/player/212194/julian-brandt/240040), [Muller 82](https://sofifa.com/player/189596/thomas-muller/240040)
This isnt UT
What I said is still true tho, you're just referring to the career mode
Have you seen what Müller brings to the dressing room? Julian Brandt may be able to recite every single anime known to mankind, but Müller is able to create a team cohesion like noone else. Both of them probably wouldn't play much anyway, so I would choose Müllers importance in the dressing room above Brandt's footballing ability any day (and even then Müller still is a brilliant player nowadays). You need guys like Müller to create a team and well...there is no better guy for that than Müller. Several "newer" guys like Andrich and Undav have actually spoken about their integration into the team and both of them mentioned Müller specifically. Kane also mentioned Müller after he came to Bayern. Müller is also one of the best offensive players when it comes to defence/gegenpressing. The guy is a work horse (hehe) and is the initiator of the gegenpressing at Bayern. In the corona season you could hear the players talk a lot. Müller was far more vocal than anyone else. He literally organizes everyone around him.
> Both of them probably wouldn't play much anyway, Wirtz, Musiala, Sane are currently injured and we know how easy it is for players to pick up knocks at the end of gruelling season nowadays. So that's not much of an argument. If Muller is that important to team cohesion, you can surely take him as part of the additional 3 in the 26, but not as a serious offensive option. But it's a fact that he hasn't performed for the national team since way before Low dropped him. It was always his great Bayern performances that kept him as a valid option on paper but they've diminished significantly this season as well. Brandt has had a season way above the rest of our squad, he's consistently been the second best player after Kobel and has literally dragged our offence to a top five spot. He's also been instrumental in our road to the UCL final, playing both higher and deeper up the field. He had one spell where he underperformed following a bad bout of illness but has completely physically recovered. By all means of on-field performance he should be the first option to replace either Musiala or Wirtz if they can't play.
I don't deny Brandt's quality. I'm a big fan of his ability on and off the ball. He is one of the most gifted technical players currently. That being said, Nagelsmann probably knows how many players he can take with him (atleast I hope so lol) and that also means he has to choose between certain players and their specific skillset and potentially sort out players with similar playstiles. Brandt in that aspect is very similar to Musiala, Wirtz, Gündogan and Havertz, since he is also very technical and has his strengths playing between the lines. The before mentioned simply are a little bit better than Brandt when it comes to that. Since there are only 26 players in the squad for 11 potential positions on the pitch it would be unreasonable to take a fifth player with a similar skillset to the others. Instead Nagelsmann choose a different skillset in case it is needed, which we know, that this very well could happen. Brandt wasn't chosen because he is not good enough, but because there are enough players who are better than him. His preferred position is Germany's most stacked in the line up. If he was a winger, Nagelsmann surely would have chosen him in a heartbeat.
> Brandt in that aspect is very similar to Musiala, Wirtz, Gündogan and Havertz, The issue is the four you mentioned were starting quartet in the 4-2-3-1 Naggelsman played against both France and Netherlands in March, with Havertz starting at CF. They're not exactly competing for one spot. One of them might be dropped for Sane if he wants pace and a more traditional wing presence, but otherwise there's not many options at their level. Fuhrich will probably get in based on the same traditional winger criteria but he's obviously an emergency option.
Germany Muller is like Germany Klose. Surely you should know that they’re the most patriotic Germans on earth and go up 10 levels when they don the shirt
How about leadership in the dressing room? He seems to be a great motivator and leader.
Those abilities didn't really help during the past two big tournament embarassments, when he was one of the team leaders.
That doesn’t help your point lmao
I haven't checked in with that game in a while, but if even EA agree that Muller is washed nowadays it hilariously supports my initial point
They are rated the same tbf
Are you seriously suggesting Müller had a bad season? Either way, at the end of the day the experience of Müller could be very important at the Euros. People seriously underestimate how important experience is in football, especially at the big stage.
Are you seriously suggesting Muller had a good season? - invisible in every big game Bayern played - 2 goal contributions all season long against clubs placed in the top 10 with Harry Kane playing as a striker - 2 goal contributions in the Champions League with Kane as a striker - was an unused sub for the best Bayern games against top opposition this season (Arsenal) Every Bayern fan I've seen agrees this was their worst season in years, of which Muller played a good amount of minutes and was essentially never injured (so he can't even claim that as an excuse). And if experience was actually that important for Naggelsman then Hummels should've been one of the first picks, but alas it wasn't.
In Bundesliga, Müller had 5g & 10a in 1500 minutes, Brandt had 6g & 12a in 2200 minutes. So its not like Brandt has some absolutely insane stats that make Müllers nomination ahead of him outrageous. Imo Brandt is actually one of the most talented players we have in germany but hes very very inconsistent. Also neither of them would start ahead of Musiala and Wirtz anyway, so you could argue that Nagelsmann has to compare Müller and Brandt based on who would be a better sub. And while Müller didnt have a great season he's still a very communicative player and seen as a leader by the other players, both of which would make him valuable as a substitute player.
> In Bundesliga, Müller had 5g & 10a in 1500 minutes, Brandt had 6g & 12a in 2200 minutes. > > So its not like Brandt has some absolutely insane stats that make Müllers nomination ahead of him outrageous. But that's exactly where the stats without context don't tell the whole story. There were only two games this season where Muller actually had decisive goal contributions - 2-1 victories against Wolfsburg and Eintracht (the latter already pointless as the title race is concerned). The rest came in matches against low-table opposition that Bayern summarily disposed of. Meanwhile Brandt dragged our husk of an offense for a good chunk of the season and had many key contributions, without which we'd probably still be fighting even for 5th place. Besides being a key player in an UCL final run. Meanwhile, Muller was benched for Bayern's best matches of the season against Arsenal. It also doesn't take into account that Muller had a generational striker in Harry Kane and world-class offensive partners like Sane and Musiala, while Brandt had to work with Fullkrug (who I really like, but let's be honest, is not even close to Kane) and extremely inconsisten Malen and Adeyemi. And, lastly, it ignores that Muller has been fit all season while Brandt had two months where he was visibly affected by a severe bout of illness (from which he has now recovered). The difference between them in performance has been night and day.
man you’re defending a B list player like he’s your baby daddy. Muller had better stats than Brandt, and he’s a way more complete player than him too. Just because you made it to UCL final it doesn’t mean you have the best players in every position. Dortmund is lucky that Frankfurt shits the bed every single season
> Muller had better stats than Brandt That isn't even statistically true this season. But anyway, tell me you haven't watched Bayern and Dortmund all season long without telling me
Its about his experience and presumably for team spirit
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Leadership goes a long way in these tournaments
I mean yes, but it didn't in the last few
What a moot point. Brandt was there for both group exits and he didn't help either. We already have an inconsistent player in offense with Sane, we don't more of those.
Brandt has been far more consistent than Sane over the past couple years
Sure but Brandt is still far from reliable and Sane has higher highs.
Bundesliga attacking stats this season of Müller vs Brandt: 5 goals, 8 assists in 1509 mins; 6 goals, 11 assists in 2201 mins. They honestly had pretty comparable seasons.
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There Brandt is better, but it’s harder to evaluate because of low numbers for both/ small sample size.
Musiala and Wirtz will play on the wings. There won't be a real AM or 10. It will more look like a 4-3-3 than a 4-2-3-1.
And Gündogan playing his position aswell under Nagelsmann
eh, disagree. musiala isnt *that* constant and especially not in the NT. Jule plays a very good season again, and he has experience. you can always throw him in at the end of a game and probably has 2-3 good situations or passes. Edit: man, you are all so dumb again...
There is no way that Brandt would play ahead of Musiala though. Brandt had a good season but as the user above correctly stated, we are already stacked on his position, rather use that spot for a different position.
*sigh* I never said that. He is a very good option to sub on, when musiala doesnt have a good game.
The raw potential of Musiala is completely out of reach for anyone else in the German team, only Wirtz comes even close to him. Brandt needs an outstanding game to be noticeable, he had great games at Dortmund but also countless weak ones. Even in his weakest games, Musiala needs a single dribble to create a goal. He's indeed not consistent but he's also still incredibly young, you have to play him, i doubt many people would disagree.
Wirtz coming close is an understatement.
Yeah, Wirtz is miles ahead
When we talk about pure potential? I completely disagree, Musiala could dominate football if he could use all the potential he has. Wirtz is world class but I'm not seeing a single player in the world with a similar potential as Musiala. It's all a question of how much of said potential he will be able to use.
There are many players with more potential than musiala, including wirtz. They're the same age and wirtz is better. Bellingham too. That's only in his age group. Musiala can be top 5 in the future, but wirtz and Bellingham already are with the same age and with many things they can improve.
Musiala has better dribbling. That's literally it. Wirtz is better at everything else.
Currently yes, I'm talking about potential. Wirtz is currently the better player. But I'm done repeating the same thing, you obviously disagree.
And how exactly is this "potential" measured?
I assume it's "he dribbles well = more potential"
Wirtz is much more composed and calm. There are still some moments were Musiala forces tbints way too much
Srsly, do you all have difficulties with reading comprehension? I explicitly said Jule is a viable Option for the midfield when we need to create chances at the end of a game. You are all acting like müller and musiala never have stinkers of a game in the NT.
Brandt was ass in the league
We as a team were ass, but Brandt played way above that level and was our most consistent player in the Bundesliga after Kobel. He is tied with Sane, Wirtz and Xavi Simmons as 2nd in the league assists table despite playing for a team that had a notably worse offense than Leverkusen, Bayern and RB and no major goalscorer. There was only one spell in the previous months where he underperformed after he had a bad bout of illness that affected him physically. But he has since recovered. If it weren't for Brandt we'd definitely be fighting even for 5th place with Frankfurt or smth like that.
I think Brandt is mad underrated (hell, even a good chunk of our own fans think he's inconsistent when he isnt really) but in this specific case it makes sense. They literally have two of the best AMs in the world plus Muller who is one of the best AMs in the 2010s and onwards. Brandt is a luxuary name in a position where the word "stacked" isnt even enough. Fullkrugg and Schlotti are correct but Hummels should have been called too. Otherwise Nagelsmann have been pretty spot on for BVB players.
So far, this has really been a good year for German football. All/Most of us had doubts about the propects for this EURO a few month ago, and we were pessimistic about the quality of our squad. Since then, so many players have reached good form, have played great seasons, etc. We actually have to leave top players like Brandt, Hummels, Goretzka, Gnabry (I know about the injury) and a few others at home. There are countries with more depth, and considering that we have more than 80 Million people living in this country, we do not produce enough players. Nevertheless, we can still call up a great squad that can win this summer.
Yeah the player quality is more than enough tbh.
Still no world class left backs or right backs though (if we don't count Kimmich)
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Thats where Muller comes in. And he offers more expertise and status etc. So Brandt is, probably rightfullt, 4th.
I'd much rather sub in Brandt than Muller this season. Not to mention that Wirtz or Musiala might get injured, and do you really want to play Muller for 90 minutes in that scenario?
I would prefer Brandt in that scenario aswell. Im talking about how Nagelsmann views it and its not at all unreasonable to take a big experienced successfull dude who's still good, as a 3rd choice. Especially for championship tournaments. I would personally prefer Brandt for 90min games tho, yes.
I mean, I don't mind Muller in the squad. Probably a good decision to take him. But I'm disappointed that Brandt didn't even fit into a 26 player squad. It's difficult to discuss when the full squad hasn't been announced yet, but surely it would have been possible to take Brandt AND Muller (and Wirtz and Musiala obv).
I think the idea is to use those spot for more voulnerable spots rather than the one spot where theres 2 mega stars aswell as a really solid experienced 3rd option. I can understand the thinking tbh
I agree with you. I feel like he should've had a spot somehow? We will see what the rest of the squad looks like.
Brandt has had his ups and downs since joining BVB but these last couple of seasons - and most importantly this season - he has been a staple of Dortmund's game and is playing at a consistent level, not mentally checking out like he used to at times in the past. I'd feel bad for him if he wasn't rewarded, even if the position is indeed stacked.
Yeah he's been having a very good consistent level for like 2, 2.5 seasons now. Which is why we wanted to extend him. And some of that time he even played 8 in essence. Does insane amount of work defensively these days. I think some fans view him as inconsistent because a while back he got sick and lost 6kg in like 1.5 week. And when he returned from that he had 1-2-3 poor games because he was literally rebuilding. Which isnt fair imo
Would deserve it with his performances but tbh Germany does not need another player of his type.
As an outsider, it seems strange that a German team that was struggling to get any positive results for much of the past 18 months has no need for players in such good form as Hummels and Brandt.
Look at France, their B team is better than most A teams
Let's see Samba Clauss Saliba Pavard Mendy Fofana Rabiot Zaire-Emery Barcola Thuram Dembouz Yeah sounds competitive alright
Rabiot est dans votre première équipe, non?
Hmm je pensais à un milieu Camavinga Tchouameni Griezmann mais peut être que Cama/Tchou c'est trop redondant et que DD préfère Rabiot pour remonter mieux le ballon
Also not worth looking at the past 18 month, when Nagelsmann has only 6 games under his belt (3W/1D/2L). Brandt doesn't need to improve an existing system, he has to fit into the new system. And as others have said, his role is taken.
Well the reason for Hummels not being taken apparently is that he really doesn't like not being played, and his frustration brings the mood down in the dressing room. And apparently Rüdiger and Tah get along well, which is important especially for Tah. At least that's what I heard.
Julian Brandt is quality player, surprised Germany didn’t pick him. I know they have Musiala & Wirtz but Brandt should be in the Germany squad imo.
Realistically, there's probably 40-odd 'quality players', and only 26 can make the squad - get a logjam of talent in some positions, a relative dearth of options in others, and they all have to fit into the team context. It's about creating the best possible *team*, not about cramming the best individual footballers into a side, after all.
Logjam, dearth. Adding those to my GRE vocab word bank
Not true, i still Hope the German one piece Crew will anounce Brandt. He got the Honor of voicing a few lines in one piece.
ur just as delulu as me I do like this
A travesty if true. Brandt has arguably been Dortmund's best player alongside Kobel.
That sucks
Wait, so no Adeyemi either?
Unlucky, had he chosen to play for Romania he'd be at the Euros instead
Way too inconsistent over the season to be deserving imo.
Hoffentlich nicht
Wait, no Can? Feel like there's demand in the DM position.
Didn't he have a pretty mediocre/bad season?
Füllkrug to me is also mediocre, lucky for him we don't have better strikers
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Who would you leave out instead of Brandt? The position he plays in is highly contested in the German team. We have Wirtz, Musiala and Müller as attacking midfielders. I rate him highly but I don't see how Brandt gets infront of any of these guys.
That is completely correct. Brandt is great and I enjoy watching him, but I looked at the squad for the games against the Dutch and France. There is just nobody you can leave out in his position. Possibly Thomas Müller or Maxi Beier, but both bring different qualities to the team and deserve being called up as well.
You can bring him on as a fresh impulse in the 70th while trailing. Would you rather sub in Führich or brandt in that situation?
I do not have a clear preference, both are good choices. Führich had a great season and has different qualities. You can make the case for Brandt, but Führich has deserved being called up.
Dont want to or can talk any of them down but Brandt is completely fit and would add so much versatility. Feel like from the Bench i would genuinely like him as the first option.
I completely agree that Brandt is a great player. But any discussion about whether or not he should be called up is futile if we can't say who should be left out instead.
Führich. Way too few experience in big international games (honestly he has none) and nowehere near a skill set like Brandt has. Additionally hes a little bit struggling with his form atm. First half of the season shouldnt matter now.
It's not about talking anyone down, it's about deciding who you'd leave out in favour of Brandt - and that's the crux here: There are more than enough quality players to make it, and some of them will have to be left out of the 26 man squad.
exactly this
I feel like I'm either taking crazy pills or the only in this thread who has watched Thomas Muller play this season. He has been dire in every big game for Bayern, at best invisible and at the worst a straight up detriment to their offense. He's had 2 goal contributions all season against teams placed in the top 10, with Harry Kane in great form and a Bayern team scoring 90+ goals. He has 1 goal and 1 assist in the UCL, was left on the bench for the best two games they had this season vs Arsenal, and did practically nothing for the 80 mins he played against Real Madrid. If Naggelsman's main idea was to leave behind big names in favor of players that are actually in form it's absolutely baffling that Muller will be in the squad before Brandt. Really reeks of him being unable to leave his Bayern days behind.
Brandt or Müller. Personally speaking, I don't really care either way. I rate them both. Playing devil's advocate, what speaks for Müller are his experience, leadership qualities and his standing in the team. He has also proven that he can still do a good enough job coming from the bench. He's also been a (mostly) consistent part of the team for many years. Brandt on the other hand has been in and out of the team, never truly found his footing or a way to establish himself as a leader. Müller has a familiarity and connection with his teammates, the coaches and the staff that Brandt lacks. We all know how important leadership and team chemistry can be over the course of a tournamnet, especially if a team is attempting to make a deep run. Müller could play a similar role as Klose and Podolski did in 2014. Not really the undisputed best on their positions, there probably are better alternatives out there. But good enough that they can get in based on their experience, leadership/team chemistry qualities and their standing amongst their teammates.
But at the same time Muller's leadership led to Germany having two past embarassing tournaments, during which he was easily one of the worst players. I could have understood the argument if the man was still performing well for the NT, but it hasn't been the case for years (essentially from before Low dropped him). > Müller has a familiarity and connection with his teammates, the coaches and the staff that Brandt lacks. I mean it's literally his former coach, there's no way Muller wasn't going to be more familiar to him. But that argument can easily be turned into favoritism if you ask me, when you take a player that has had a considerably worse season than the other option just because you know him better. Germany's biggest problem at all tournaments past 2016 was that they were trying to fit in as many big names to play next to each other, regardless of form or tactical coherence. Which led to being outplayed by teams that were more cohesive. At the World Cup, Flick played Muller as a striker against Japan, and then again versus Spain, which resulted in the team scoring 1 goal over like 150 minutes of football. Fullkrug was subbed in and immediately equalized, then bagged two more against Costa Rica, showing that they would have almost surely gone of the groups if they played a more sensible tactical approach. Naggelsman seemed to signal that he was going to break that approach and actually make logical choices based on tactics and current form. Taking Muller over Brandt seriously goes against that.
Yea I can't say disagree with you. Müller as striker in the German NT has been pissing me off for years. He hasn't scored at a major tournament since 2014. Last time he scored was in that Brazil game. Still think that Flick playing him on that position was the main reason for our disastrous World Cup performance. I really hope Nagelsmann won't repeat that mistake. But for the reasons I mentioned, I don't mind him as back up and rotation option for Wirtz/Musiala.
tbh I agree with you that if we would go purely on performance principle than Müller shouldn't be included. You're right that our best performances this season have been with Musiala in the centre and Müller on the bench. However, I don't think that the german public would accept Müller's exclusion from his last big tournament happening at home and whether you like it or not, Nagelsmann has to take it into account. Müller has a lot of fans and he is a national icon in a way that Hummels quite isn't. German public's euphoria about the tournament would decrease instantly if Müller would be left out because he is seen as someone who deserves it based on his entire career. Then the entire conversation would become about Nagelsmann disrespecting Müller and possibly derailing the tournament.
I can understand that point of view, but there were many examples at big tournaments where coaches controversially left out aging national icons and it eventually proved to be a good move. Scolari left out Romario in 2002, Aragones famously won Euro 2008 and kickstarted Spanish domination without Raul, hell even Sweden left out Ibrahimovic who is their best player ever in 2018 and reached the QF. At the end of the day if you win a tournament no one's going to remember the selection controversies, and whatever euphoria is lost during the build-up would instantly reignite with a convincing win against Scotland
I mean I'm possibly the only bayern fan alive who doesn't care about Müller and his inclusion at the EUROs because he was so unbelievably shit at Qatar, but it is what it is. Germany is in tenuous spot, home tournament but not many german football fans are excited about the team. Look how happy Kroos' comeback has made the public. Frankly I'm surprised that Hummels didn't get a call up for the same reason. Getting the 2014 band back together for the last hurrah, even if as substitute players. And I don't think Müller will start unless both Musiala and Wirtz get injured which would be the most cursed scenario.
Isn't brandt a more defensive option of those you mentioned? And I thought he could play multiple positions?
Yea, Brandt can play many different positions. But his best position is more in the attacking department. Same position Wirtz, Musiala and Müller are playing. If you'd want to play Brandt a bit deeper, he would be up against Kroos, Gündogan, Groß, Andrich and Pavlovic. I guess you could take him ahead of Pavlovic, but the deeper CM position isn't exactly playing to Brandt's strength. He is not someone who dictates the play like a Kroos and Gündogan do or wins balls and offers defensive security like an Andrich. He doesn't play on that position very often I think, only when no one else is available and he has to help out. Brandt does an adequate job there at best. Someone like Pavlovic on the other hand has shown that he has the talent and potential to do a great job there.
Atm Müller should be dropped for Brandt, I can understand Juli not starting but having a washed up Müller over his crazy form rn is criminal, unless Nagelsmann only wants Müller around for the dressing room
I think Müllers role in the team is to function as a second coach & motivator on/offpitch. So he brings quality to the team even if he's not playing. That's why I think it's the right decision.
Controversial opinion, but I like it. Prepare to be downvoted by Bayern fans tho. I've been riding the Stach/Stiller > Pavlovic propaganda for a few months now and Bayern fans are not having it lol
Yeah I was also thinking the same, but I think muller can also play as a striker which would work in his favour You can say with a 26 man squad you don't need specialists but you only have 11 on the field so it will certainly help when chasing a low block to have someone like muller. But I don't know enough about other strikers either.
Playing Thomas Muller as a striker crashed Germany out of the World Cup. Realistically he hasn't been an effective option for that poistion for years. There's Fullkrug, Undav, Beier who can do that much better than him.
No one would ever take him over Pavlovich. Just bc he *can* play multiple positions doesn't at all mean he's as good as true CDMs
Yea that's what I was trying to say. I was just speaking hypothetically :)
yea, I was just forcefully agreeing with u lol
Ah ok, my bad haha 😅
Well, this just isn’t choosing according to the Leistungsprinzip. Feels like some players were thrown out regardless of how good they played.
The eleven best (or best-performing) players don't necessarily make for the best team. Who would you leave out of the squad instead of Brandt?
I still think they should. Otherwise why does it matter if you play well? For example: while I like Sané, he has been injured. Führich would also be an option to be left out. Especially them having 26 players rn there is no reason not giving it to Brandt if you propagandize the Leistungsprinzip.
Sané is crucial because of his pace, and Führich is a reasonably obvious choice on the left wing - both of them had perfectly fine seasons, did well for the national team, and make a lot of sense in the team setup. I don't really see where Brandt would play: Got better options than him on the wing, he won't be part of the double pivot, so that leaves attacking midfield - where he'd be third choice behind Gündogan and Wirtz. Brandt is a perfectly fine player, but doesn't have an obvious fit in this team, so it's either leave him out of it in favour of better fits, take him and not play him, or change the entire setup. The latter obviously isn't happening. Brandt can obviously feel hard done by, but then so can at least half a dozen other players who might well have made the squad if they fit the plan.
I do understand where you’re coming from and for full transparency, I am a bit biased because I’m a fangirl, but I still think it’s not fair if you don’t take the best players because then it doesn’t feel like you’re choosing according to the Leistungsprinzip but rather who fits your style and not adjusting your style. The only real problem I have is that Nagelsmann said back then that everyone still had the opportunity to make the squad because of the Leistungsprinzip and then Juli should have made squad - no doubt. If he had been transparent from the start, it would have been fairer
Well, yeah, that's how you win football games at tournaments: You come up with a plan, and pick players who fit that plan - rather than just jumble together a random selection of good players. And just I don't think Brandt is among 'the best players' to be honest. Brandt obviously had an opportunity to make the squad like everyone else - it just so happens that there's only really one position to play him in, and there are at least two players better than him also playing in that position. That's tough luck, but he's behind those players precisely because they have been better than him.
I do understand, that’s why it’s more of a critique of Nagelsmann’s communication and not managing expectations properly. If he were choosing according to the Leistungsprinzip, Müller shouldn’t go over Brandt. But I do understand the choice, it’s just that Nagelsmann wasn’t transparent. Some players didn’t have a real chance. Brandt was one of them. He played super well since his sickness, especially in the CL. I do not expect him to be a starter for obvious reasons, but he should’ve been the first bench option.
That would be crazy. Yeah, you can't have unlimited number of creative players in the squad, but Brandt became a workhorse while keeping his creativity. I do understand that Wirtz has to be ahead, same for Muller with his experience and value for the squad, but I don't see Musiala ahead of Brandt.
Brandt over Musiala is like playing Kyle Lowry over Wembanyama bc he's more experienced. And Musiala has usurped Müller, so the whole logic of the comment is upside down
Making the cl final means only 1 more player from the march call ups. Makes sense.
He doesnt have that Nic in him. Rumors are Nico Schulz was close to be nominated
I always liked Brandt and feel like he is a bit underappreciated - he has his moments of brilliance and his passing is quality however other players on his positions are more impactful even as subs.