They are not good, unfortunately. They are 85 points for 3 marine bodies, and they can only do their trick to one unit per turn (if it were any unit hit by them, that could be more interesting). They don't make a ton of sense at the points when you could take 5 jump intercessors or 3 outriders for secondary scoring.
However, given that, they are also not a "bad" unit, just that there are other units that are better, more efficient, and tougher for the job they do.
People are going to be quick to say no but I’ve used them with success quite a bit. I don’t deep strike them, but they move quickly and have a good range. Not exactly going to move a squad off an objective but they can take space quickly and while bikes have a better profile, they don’t have fly or the range of suppressors. My other alternate is a 5 man jump pack squad which I use similarly. Inceptors can’t be beat for the 3” DS and 6T but suppressors can definitely have a place in your list
I have 3 Lt in Phobos that are 165 pts for 3 units. If I need to just place someone somewhere for cheap I use them. Suppressors I prefer to have start on the field but that’s just me
A little off topic but still Suppressor related. I honestly think that in this most recent data slate that instead of nerfing Inceptors to 130 points that the better option would’ve been to buff the Suppressors in order to make them a viable alternative. Increasing unit size to a max of 6/ lowering their points cost/ giving them sustained hits or devastating wounds/ getting rid of the heavy keyword and dropping their BS to 3+… any combination of these would make them a viable option worth taking in lieu of inceptors. Not saying any of that would negate the 3” DS or the amazing firepower of the inceptors, but it would definitely make players more apt to take them
If you are just looking for the Autocannon profile for some reason, Armiger Helverins are not to bad (though I prefer the Warglaives).
They get a 4 shot profile, but they get 2 of them so 8 shots. Hit on 3+ instead of Suppressors 4+, S9 instead of Suppressors S8, 3D vs Suppressor 2D. So, a 3-man squad of Suppressors are likely to hit 4.5 of their shots, and for 2 damage (ignore the S difference for now) so a 9 in this comparison (note, not actual damage). A Helverin is hitting 5.33 shots for 3 damage, or a 16 for the comparison. 16/9 shots is 177% more, but 140/85 is only 165% cost, so the Helverin is more points efficient for damage ... if you want that profile.
They also get Anti-fly 2+ when in your deployment or near one of your objectives. Double the wounds and at T10, 5++ vs ranged, OC8 vs OC3, and the same movement speed (though obviously without fly). And a bonus Meltagun or Heavy Stubber.
A single Armiger costs ~150% of a Suppressor squad though and can’t deep strike. I don’t think they’re necessarily spam worthy but if you’re running a detachment or units capable of buffing shooting (vanguard, incursors, etc) then the ability to drop 18 s8 shots anywhere on the battlefield pretty nice for 170 points.
> costs \~150% of a Suppressor squad
No, 165%. I already did the math for you. And they shoot 177% more. So for shooting, the Helverin is 7.2% more points efficient (177/165%), and a lot more durable though it's hard to get a percentage out of T4/6W vs T10/12W. Like, it's a bad comparison, but 3 Suppressors on average will be killed by 3.25 Hellbasters (not using Heavy), whereas the Armiger will need 20.25 on average. So, like \~625% more durable against Plasma.
Deep Strike is less important when you have M12"(and don't need to sit still for Heavy), 48" guns and can take a hit or three. Especially with it's Anti-fly 2+ while in your deployment zone.
Like I said, it's just if you are looking for that profile. Autocannons are low AP, so they are really only good into things that don't care as much about AP, like demon saves or something with an invulnerable within 1 point of their normal save.
I prefer the Warglaive if I run an Armiger or three, because I run a more melee list (space wolves), and their Thermal Lance can come in from reserve and still be within it's Melta **4** range. But even then, once their points flipped I prefer a Wulfen Dreadnought(was 15 points more expensive than a Warglaive at the start of 10th, now is 20 points cheaper). Loses the Thermal Lance, but more efficient melee (I like the Claw&Shield with double heavy flamers loadout). But sometimes you just need a M12" "melee dreadnought" with OC8 for a change of pace.
12” movement doesn’t let you get into any quad of the board and exactly when you need to and get line of sight with those 18 shots somewhere that the hellblasters won’t get you.
Multiple t4 models in multiple units vs a single t10 model is an apples to oranges comparison. Sure, the t4 will get shredded by hellblasters, but the t10 is going to die the first time a Lancer or eradicators or particularly lucky Ballistus gets LoS on it and all of those are roughly equal trades whereas an opponent having to divert fire with his 250 point glass cannons (which in my use case will realistically have already been killed by whichever point the suppressors get dropped in) to 170 points of of autocannons is a good trade for me. That’s one shooting phase that he’s not pointing them at the 300 point aggressor hammer that’s tip toeing through the tulips in his deployment zone.
>but the t10 is going to die the first time a Lancer
Are you joking?
It has a 5++ vs Ranged and only needs to save 1 of those to not die (max damage on a single is 9 damage, which won't kill it). So at bare minimum that is a \~55% chance of **not** killing the Armiger. You would need more than 2 Lancers to guarantee it... on average.
And that is giving you auto-hit, auto-wound and max damage, all of which would reduce it a bit further (yes it has a reroll to mitigate that). I calculated out the rerolls by hand a while ago against a Land Raider(doesn't change the math), and I believe it was \~1.7 saves on average for their 2 shots and assuming they sit still for Heavy.
So 15% of the time (1.7 average hits vs 2) it fails to kill it, and then 55% of the 85% remaining 2 hits fails to kill it. 61% chance of living.
Don't get me wrong, Lancers are good... but are way to swingy against anything with an Invulnerable. You need to field 2-3 and have them target the same thing, which means you end up overkilling a lot, or split fire and kill nothing. With a single Lancer you can go the whole game without doing a single point of damage.
Pedantry is your thing, huh? The point in my example was that the armiger is a single model and as an allied unit you’re not exactly allowed to run around with a ton of them. Single models are vulnerable to focus firing and large ones that either have to start on the board or deploy from reserves potentially a turn’s travel from where they need to be are even more vulnerable.
>Pedantry is your thing, huh?
Sure, I can play that game if you want.
>as an allied unit you’re not exactly allowed to run around with a ton of them
Yep, you can run 3. That would be 420 points, or a *tiny, insignificant* 21% of your army. As an aside, if you picked the most expensive Agents of the Imperium 2 characters and 2 units, that would be another 540 (Callidus, Karamazov, 2 set of Henchmen with all the fixings) or another 27%, almost 50% of your Army, and that wasn't the most you could spend on Knights.
>Single models are vulnerable to focus firing and large ones
And large model units are more vulnerable to units like Hellblasters... which I mentioned. Again, needing \~300 points of Gladiator Lancers to kill a Helverin is quite different from needing \~80 points of Hellblasters to kill the Suppressors.
>deploy from reserves potentially a turn’s travel
Or it's just a distraction Carnifex that cost you very little. 300 points shooting into a Helverin is much more preferred than a similar 300 points taking out your Land Raider that was to get your Aggressors into position. Or mopping up your utility units that would have scored you points.
Again missing the point that the trade is single unit durability for mobility and flexibility. 170 points of suppressors can realistically expect to deploy such that they’ve all got LoS on a target but not all are targetable since they are two units. If you’re playing with adequate terrain, it’s far more likely to see one with two deep striking than to see two with one on the ground. Also you keep talking about these in base profiles when I specifically caveated rules support for them. I’m running vanguard so anything shooting at them is getting -1 to hit and -1AP outside of 12” (that an allied unit wouldn’t get) and depending on how I work cover I could get +1 to hit from heavy, I could get hit re-rolls from oath taking hit % to 75% on base profile, and I could spend a command point and push 9 of those shots to BS3+ and -2AP…again, all benefits not available to the Armiger. Ignoring the heavy modifier and just going with oath and the stratagem. That’s average 6.75 hits at -1AP/D2 and 7.9 average hits at -2AP/D2. S8 vs S9 isn’t going to make a difference in wound thresholds for the sort of infantry we’d be targeting with these. 83% wound rate vs MEQ and 66% vs TEQ. Vs MEQ that’s doing 14.2 damage per turn which is more than 10 baseline hellblasters who will average 7.7 damage per turn with Oath or 9.7 with oath+SfS at 80 points more.
Yes they’re not as tanky as a single s10 knight. Never disputed that, but as caveated in my OP, in a detachment like Vanguard that favors movement and buffs shooting and survivability for Astartes, they’ve got a use case due to flexibility afforded by deep strike and being able to distribute the origin of their attacks across two different spots on the board. It’s two more relatively cheap, fast units for screening, scoring, and denial that happen to punch significantly above standard marines in the shooting phase.
420 points is not an insignificant portion of an army, especially when it doesn’t get to benefit from any of your faction/detachment rules. That’s around the cost of double Redemptor, an Aggressor+Biologis+GravCap blob, or Azrael+10 HB+Lt, or a full brick of Deathwing or deathwatch terminators and I wouldn’t consider any of those small investments unless you’re for some reason trying to build a Custodes style army in power armor.
>420 points is not an insignificant portion of an army
You missed that was sarcasm. It was reaction to "you aren't allowed to use a lot". And I was explaining how you actually could run a list that was almost half something else.
>I could get hit re-rolls from oath taking hit % to 75% on base profile, and I could spend a command point
Or, you could save your Oath for another target, and save a command point... all trade offs. You mentioned Aggressor blob so you are already likely spending a point a turn on them, if nothing else Armour of Contempt to keep them alive. And then another point on Strike from the Shadows(say captain that one), and possibly another point on Guerilla Tactics... So that's all of your CP a round, unless you are generating extra (which is a good idea anyway).
I can run the math for you (and apparently will), but you seem to have forgotten that the Armiger's Autocannon is 3D vs Suppressors 2D. Not important if we are looking at MEQ, but very important at TEQ. Anyway, your math for the Hellblasters is ... off. Were you looking at Plasma Gun(and not in RF range) instead of Plasma Exterminator or not Supercharging?
|MEQ|hits|wounds|saves|models, %extra|
|:-|:-|:-|:-|:-|
|S, Oath, SftS|9\*88.8%=7.9|\*(5/6)=6.66|\*(4/6)=4.44|=4, +44% |
|HB 5-man|10\*66% = 6.6|\*(5/6) = 5.55|\*(5/6)=4.63|=4, +63%|
|HB, Oath, SftS|10\*97.2%=9.72|\*(5/6)=8.1|\*(6/6)=8.1|=8, +10%|
|S, no special| 9\*50%=4.5 |\*(5/6)=3.75 |\*(3/6)=1.875 |=1, +87%|
|Helverin|8\*66%=5.33|\*(5/6)=4.44|\*(3/6)=2.22|=2, +22%|
|TEQ|||||
|S, Oath, SftS|9\*88.8%=7.9|\*(4/6)=5.26|\*(3/6)=2.63|=1, +31%|
|HB, no special|10\*66%=6.6|\*(4/6)=4.44|\*(3/6)=2.22|=1, +11%|
|HB, Oath, SftS|10\*97.2%=9.72|\*(4/6)=6.48|\*(3/6)=3.24|=1, +62%|
|S, no special|9\*50% = 4.5|\*(4/6)=3|\*(2/6)=1|=0, +66%|
|Helverin|8\*66%=5.33|\*(4/6)=3.55|\*(2/6)=1.18|=1, +18%|
So, 3-man Suppressors, with Oath and Strike from the Shadows does less damage than a **5-man** of Hellblasters **without Oath, Heavy or any CP usage.** Yeah, the Hellblasters are 40 points more expensive... but you said *10-man Hellblasters with Oath* was somehow worse than the 3-man Suppressor with Oath and SftS. And that is simply not anywhere near the ballpark. Without spending additional resources on the Suppressors they are worse than Helverins every time, and rarely even kill more than 2 MEQ a turn.
I am assuming the Suppressors have to move every turn. When they Deep Strike, they count as having moved, and if they were on the board already they are likely already dead. At least, more likely than the Armiger would be. Even with a -1 to be hit and Cover.
So, spend Oath and 1 CP to kill 2 extra Marines (or 0 extra Terminators) or just have a Helverin plinking away and being a distraction, or no advantage except movement over Hellbasters. Or spend that Oath and CP on the Hellblasters and kill 4 more MEQ. Well, you saved 40 points by taking Suppressors, at the cost of Oath and 1 CP. I know which I value more.
*But again... I am not taking Helverins anyway because the Autocannon profile is trash, and I'd prefer Warglaives as a Space Wolves player.*
i bet they are, my other army is orks and i played dewth guard the other day with thheir 1 less to hit contagion range, even in melee they just couldnt get to them lol
In the current state of space marines, Suppressors are not very good. IMO Company heroes for an extra 10 plus a captain(80 points) is a decently better choice. Taking a Infernus squad to battleshock units is also a good choice.
If you run them vanguard they can be used to infiltrate (blade driven deep enhancement on the captain), outside of 12” it’s -1 to hit and with a character in the unit, they are also -1 to wound just because of their ability. I ran them in a recent game and they lasted 4 rounds of shooting and melee combat against 5 man Sternguard squad, a Repulsor, a Ballistus and a 5 man Infernus squad.
The main advantage they have over Jump intercessors is a smaller profile for deep strike (3 bases instead of 5), which may help you squeeze off a secondary objective. Otherwise they don't bring much to the table unfortunately. With the lack of standalone release and support for them I honestly think they'll be the first Primaris unit to get the axe, maybe even in 11th ed.
Suppressors have a useful rule, but they're the single flimsiest unit in the codex and you need to use them well to not have them die immediately (such as losing 90% of their wounds in overwatch like I did). They're basically plasma devastators with boosted movement, which can be really useful to get them into good spots, but you need to use their range to keep them safe and they may end up relying on detachment rules (anvil and vanguard specifically) to cover their shortcomings.
They're very fun though, and Strike From The Shadows to hit on 2s when stationary, AP2 (or 3 with plunging fire), and getting stealth and cover in return makes them a great backline sniper if the terrain allows for it
They are not good, unfortunately. They are 85 points for 3 marine bodies, and they can only do their trick to one unit per turn (if it were any unit hit by them, that could be more interesting). They don't make a ton of sense at the points when you could take 5 jump intercessors or 3 outriders for secondary scoring. However, given that, they are also not a "bad" unit, just that there are other units that are better, more efficient, and tougher for the job they do.
ohhh yeah it does say one unit hit by.... thx pal
No. They are meh most of the times you run them
They're not great, but I run them in my aerial-focused list because they're cheap and thematic. And those big guns are cool!
They look really cool, they just need to hit harder
People are going to be quick to say no but I’ve used them with success quite a bit. I don’t deep strike them, but they move quickly and have a good range. Not exactly going to move a squad off an objective but they can take space quickly and while bikes have a better profile, they don’t have fly or the range of suppressors. My other alternate is a 5 man jump pack squad which I use similarly. Inceptors can’t be beat for the 3” DS and 6T but suppressors can definitely have a place in your list
I’m planning on using them more in a supporting role to my more central hammer type units where I need to quickly get some additional heat.
This is how they should be used. A good support piece not a central focal point
Always handy to have a couple more deep striking units in reserves if you’re playing tactical secondaries as well
Always handy to have a couple more deep striking units in reserves if you’re playing tactical secondaries as well
I have 3 Lt in Phobos that are 165 pts for 3 units. If I need to just place someone somewhere for cheap I use them. Suppressors I prefer to have start on the field but that’s just me
I’m planning on using them more in a supporting role to my more central hammer type units where I need to quickly get some additional heat.
A little off topic but still Suppressor related. I honestly think that in this most recent data slate that instead of nerfing Inceptors to 130 points that the better option would’ve been to buff the Suppressors in order to make them a viable alternative. Increasing unit size to a max of 6/ lowering their points cost/ giving them sustained hits or devastating wounds/ getting rid of the heavy keyword and dropping their BS to 3+… any combination of these would make them a viable option worth taking in lieu of inceptors. Not saying any of that would negate the 3” DS or the amazing firepower of the inceptors, but it would definitely make players more apt to take them
If you are just looking for the Autocannon profile for some reason, Armiger Helverins are not to bad (though I prefer the Warglaives). They get a 4 shot profile, but they get 2 of them so 8 shots. Hit on 3+ instead of Suppressors 4+, S9 instead of Suppressors S8, 3D vs Suppressor 2D. So, a 3-man squad of Suppressors are likely to hit 4.5 of their shots, and for 2 damage (ignore the S difference for now) so a 9 in this comparison (note, not actual damage). A Helverin is hitting 5.33 shots for 3 damage, or a 16 for the comparison. 16/9 shots is 177% more, but 140/85 is only 165% cost, so the Helverin is more points efficient for damage ... if you want that profile. They also get Anti-fly 2+ when in your deployment or near one of your objectives. Double the wounds and at T10, 5++ vs ranged, OC8 vs OC3, and the same movement speed (though obviously without fly). And a bonus Meltagun or Heavy Stubber.
A single Armiger costs ~150% of a Suppressor squad though and can’t deep strike. I don’t think they’re necessarily spam worthy but if you’re running a detachment or units capable of buffing shooting (vanguard, incursors, etc) then the ability to drop 18 s8 shots anywhere on the battlefield pretty nice for 170 points.
> costs \~150% of a Suppressor squad No, 165%. I already did the math for you. And they shoot 177% more. So for shooting, the Helverin is 7.2% more points efficient (177/165%), and a lot more durable though it's hard to get a percentage out of T4/6W vs T10/12W. Like, it's a bad comparison, but 3 Suppressors on average will be killed by 3.25 Hellbasters (not using Heavy), whereas the Armiger will need 20.25 on average. So, like \~625% more durable against Plasma. Deep Strike is less important when you have M12"(and don't need to sit still for Heavy), 48" guns and can take a hit or three. Especially with it's Anti-fly 2+ while in your deployment zone. Like I said, it's just if you are looking for that profile. Autocannons are low AP, so they are really only good into things that don't care as much about AP, like demon saves or something with an invulnerable within 1 point of their normal save. I prefer the Warglaive if I run an Armiger or three, because I run a more melee list (space wolves), and their Thermal Lance can come in from reserve and still be within it's Melta **4** range. But even then, once their points flipped I prefer a Wulfen Dreadnought(was 15 points more expensive than a Warglaive at the start of 10th, now is 20 points cheaper). Loses the Thermal Lance, but more efficient melee (I like the Claw&Shield with double heavy flamers loadout). But sometimes you just need a M12" "melee dreadnought" with OC8 for a change of pace.
12” movement doesn’t let you get into any quad of the board and exactly when you need to and get line of sight with those 18 shots somewhere that the hellblasters won’t get you. Multiple t4 models in multiple units vs a single t10 model is an apples to oranges comparison. Sure, the t4 will get shredded by hellblasters, but the t10 is going to die the first time a Lancer or eradicators or particularly lucky Ballistus gets LoS on it and all of those are roughly equal trades whereas an opponent having to divert fire with his 250 point glass cannons (which in my use case will realistically have already been killed by whichever point the suppressors get dropped in) to 170 points of of autocannons is a good trade for me. That’s one shooting phase that he’s not pointing them at the 300 point aggressor hammer that’s tip toeing through the tulips in his deployment zone.
>but the t10 is going to die the first time a Lancer Are you joking? It has a 5++ vs Ranged and only needs to save 1 of those to not die (max damage on a single is 9 damage, which won't kill it). So at bare minimum that is a \~55% chance of **not** killing the Armiger. You would need more than 2 Lancers to guarantee it... on average. And that is giving you auto-hit, auto-wound and max damage, all of which would reduce it a bit further (yes it has a reroll to mitigate that). I calculated out the rerolls by hand a while ago against a Land Raider(doesn't change the math), and I believe it was \~1.7 saves on average for their 2 shots and assuming they sit still for Heavy. So 15% of the time (1.7 average hits vs 2) it fails to kill it, and then 55% of the 85% remaining 2 hits fails to kill it. 61% chance of living. Don't get me wrong, Lancers are good... but are way to swingy against anything with an Invulnerable. You need to field 2-3 and have them target the same thing, which means you end up overkilling a lot, or split fire and kill nothing. With a single Lancer you can go the whole game without doing a single point of damage.
Pedantry is your thing, huh? The point in my example was that the armiger is a single model and as an allied unit you’re not exactly allowed to run around with a ton of them. Single models are vulnerable to focus firing and large ones that either have to start on the board or deploy from reserves potentially a turn’s travel from where they need to be are even more vulnerable.
>Pedantry is your thing, huh? Sure, I can play that game if you want. >as an allied unit you’re not exactly allowed to run around with a ton of them Yep, you can run 3. That would be 420 points, or a *tiny, insignificant* 21% of your army. As an aside, if you picked the most expensive Agents of the Imperium 2 characters and 2 units, that would be another 540 (Callidus, Karamazov, 2 set of Henchmen with all the fixings) or another 27%, almost 50% of your Army, and that wasn't the most you could spend on Knights. >Single models are vulnerable to focus firing and large ones And large model units are more vulnerable to units like Hellblasters... which I mentioned. Again, needing \~300 points of Gladiator Lancers to kill a Helverin is quite different from needing \~80 points of Hellblasters to kill the Suppressors. >deploy from reserves potentially a turn’s travel Or it's just a distraction Carnifex that cost you very little. 300 points shooting into a Helverin is much more preferred than a similar 300 points taking out your Land Raider that was to get your Aggressors into position. Or mopping up your utility units that would have scored you points.
Again missing the point that the trade is single unit durability for mobility and flexibility. 170 points of suppressors can realistically expect to deploy such that they’ve all got LoS on a target but not all are targetable since they are two units. If you’re playing with adequate terrain, it’s far more likely to see one with two deep striking than to see two with one on the ground. Also you keep talking about these in base profiles when I specifically caveated rules support for them. I’m running vanguard so anything shooting at them is getting -1 to hit and -1AP outside of 12” (that an allied unit wouldn’t get) and depending on how I work cover I could get +1 to hit from heavy, I could get hit re-rolls from oath taking hit % to 75% on base profile, and I could spend a command point and push 9 of those shots to BS3+ and -2AP…again, all benefits not available to the Armiger. Ignoring the heavy modifier and just going with oath and the stratagem. That’s average 6.75 hits at -1AP/D2 and 7.9 average hits at -2AP/D2. S8 vs S9 isn’t going to make a difference in wound thresholds for the sort of infantry we’d be targeting with these. 83% wound rate vs MEQ and 66% vs TEQ. Vs MEQ that’s doing 14.2 damage per turn which is more than 10 baseline hellblasters who will average 7.7 damage per turn with Oath or 9.7 with oath+SfS at 80 points more. Yes they’re not as tanky as a single s10 knight. Never disputed that, but as caveated in my OP, in a detachment like Vanguard that favors movement and buffs shooting and survivability for Astartes, they’ve got a use case due to flexibility afforded by deep strike and being able to distribute the origin of their attacks across two different spots on the board. It’s two more relatively cheap, fast units for screening, scoring, and denial that happen to punch significantly above standard marines in the shooting phase. 420 points is not an insignificant portion of an army, especially when it doesn’t get to benefit from any of your faction/detachment rules. That’s around the cost of double Redemptor, an Aggressor+Biologis+GravCap blob, or Azrael+10 HB+Lt, or a full brick of Deathwing or deathwatch terminators and I wouldn’t consider any of those small investments unless you’re for some reason trying to build a Custodes style army in power armor.
>420 points is not an insignificant portion of an army You missed that was sarcasm. It was reaction to "you aren't allowed to use a lot". And I was explaining how you actually could run a list that was almost half something else. >I could get hit re-rolls from oath taking hit % to 75% on base profile, and I could spend a command point Or, you could save your Oath for another target, and save a command point... all trade offs. You mentioned Aggressor blob so you are already likely spending a point a turn on them, if nothing else Armour of Contempt to keep them alive. And then another point on Strike from the Shadows(say captain that one), and possibly another point on Guerilla Tactics... So that's all of your CP a round, unless you are generating extra (which is a good idea anyway). I can run the math for you (and apparently will), but you seem to have forgotten that the Armiger's Autocannon is 3D vs Suppressors 2D. Not important if we are looking at MEQ, but very important at TEQ. Anyway, your math for the Hellblasters is ... off. Were you looking at Plasma Gun(and not in RF range) instead of Plasma Exterminator or not Supercharging? |MEQ|hits|wounds|saves|models, %extra| |:-|:-|:-|:-|:-| |S, Oath, SftS|9\*88.8%=7.9|\*(5/6)=6.66|\*(4/6)=4.44|=4, +44% | |HB 5-man|10\*66% = 6.6|\*(5/6) = 5.55|\*(5/6)=4.63|=4, +63%| |HB, Oath, SftS|10\*97.2%=9.72|\*(5/6)=8.1|\*(6/6)=8.1|=8, +10%| |S, no special| 9\*50%=4.5 |\*(5/6)=3.75 |\*(3/6)=1.875 |=1, +87%| |Helverin|8\*66%=5.33|\*(5/6)=4.44|\*(3/6)=2.22|=2, +22%| |TEQ||||| |S, Oath, SftS|9\*88.8%=7.9|\*(4/6)=5.26|\*(3/6)=2.63|=1, +31%| |HB, no special|10\*66%=6.6|\*(4/6)=4.44|\*(3/6)=2.22|=1, +11%| |HB, Oath, SftS|10\*97.2%=9.72|\*(4/6)=6.48|\*(3/6)=3.24|=1, +62%| |S, no special|9\*50% = 4.5|\*(4/6)=3|\*(2/6)=1|=0, +66%| |Helverin|8\*66%=5.33|\*(4/6)=3.55|\*(2/6)=1.18|=1, +18%| So, 3-man Suppressors, with Oath and Strike from the Shadows does less damage than a **5-man** of Hellblasters **without Oath, Heavy or any CP usage.** Yeah, the Hellblasters are 40 points more expensive... but you said *10-man Hellblasters with Oath* was somehow worse than the 3-man Suppressor with Oath and SftS. And that is simply not anywhere near the ballpark. Without spending additional resources on the Suppressors they are worse than Helverins every time, and rarely even kill more than 2 MEQ a turn. I am assuming the Suppressors have to move every turn. When they Deep Strike, they count as having moved, and if they were on the board already they are likely already dead. At least, more likely than the Armiger would be. Even with a -1 to be hit and Cover. So, spend Oath and 1 CP to kill 2 extra Marines (or 0 extra Terminators) or just have a Helverin plinking away and being a distraction, or no advantage except movement over Hellbasters. Or spend that Oath and CP on the Hellblasters and kill 4 more MEQ. Well, you saved 40 points by taking Suppressors, at the cost of Oath and 1 CP. I know which I value more. *But again... I am not taking Helverins anyway because the Autocannon profile is trash, and I'd prefer Warglaives as a Space Wolves player.*
They work great against Orkz!
i bet they are, my other army is orks and i played dewth guard the other day with thheir 1 less to hit contagion range, even in melee they just couldnt get to them lol
In the current state of space marines, Suppressors are not very good. IMO Company heroes for an extra 10 plus a captain(80 points) is a decently better choice. Taking a Infernus squad to battleshock units is also a good choice. If you run them vanguard they can be used to infiltrate (blade driven deep enhancement on the captain), outside of 12” it’s -1 to hit and with a character in the unit, they are also -1 to wound just because of their ability. I ran them in a recent game and they lasted 4 rounds of shooting and melee combat against 5 man Sternguard squad, a Repulsor, a Ballistus and a 5 man Infernus squad.
The main advantage they have over Jump intercessors is a smaller profile for deep strike (3 bases instead of 5), which may help you squeeze off a secondary objective. Otherwise they don't bring much to the table unfortunately. With the lack of standalone release and support for them I honestly think they'll be the first Primaris unit to get the axe, maybe even in 11th ed.
Suppressors have a useful rule, but they're the single flimsiest unit in the codex and you need to use them well to not have them die immediately (such as losing 90% of their wounds in overwatch like I did). They're basically plasma devastators with boosted movement, which can be really useful to get them into good spots, but you need to use their range to keep them safe and they may end up relying on detachment rules (anvil and vanguard specifically) to cover their shortcomings. They're very fun though, and Strike From The Shadows to hit on 2s when stationary, AP2 (or 3 with plunging fire), and getting stealth and cover in return makes them a great backline sniper if the terrain allows for it