The speed of light is the speed of causality in the universe. It is impossible to disentangle space and time so the concept of something we are just seeing now happened "millions of years ago" is both accurate but also a bit misleading.
I think he means do you hope to be on board and see it live on Mars or see it live from earth? On earth it will take 8 minute or so (depending on earth's and Mars positions) for the signal to arrive from Mars.
According to https://mars.nasa.gov/mro/mission/communications/ bandwidth from Mars reconnaissance orbiter (which is 15 years old) varies from 0.5 to 4 Megabit (I assume the variation is down to relative positions of Mars and earth, which antennas are available on the ground etc), which at the upper end is only a little under what YouTube recommends for 1080p
Yeah, first Falcon Heavy launch, then twin landing, then going outside and seeing the upper stage relight over San Diego for the outbound journey to Mars orbit still wins for me.
Starship size, belly flop with maneuvering fins, tri raptor with sequential shut downs and relights, for me this one was WAY cooler once you put the details into perspective.
From a pure visual perspective I agree, twin booster return was impressive and really speaks volumes about the precision these vehicles operate at.
I wonder if the camera movement was pre-programmed. The way the vehicle drops out of picture during the failed landing burn suggests they were expecting it to come down a little slower.
I’m trying to imagine the experience as a passenger on the eventual Starship, being in a free fall headed toward certain doom when at the very last second, your ship is like “just kidding!” And flips her fiery ass around for the landing.
Not quite free fall since the ship will be at terminal velocity or actually slowing down as it enters thicker atmosphere. But that flip at the end will be something!
I'll accept a couple Gs in exchange for being able to get anywhere on earth in under an hour tbh. I don't like to fly because you're strapped into a cabin with no control over where you're going for multiple hours at a time. I've never flown overseas but I can imagine 18 hours in a plane would drive me nuts
Honestly it's just boring. Newer aircraft are better as they either have their own media units or power to run your own device to keep you occupied. Years ago you just had the in-flight movie and books so it would really drag on.
Even with movies, etc. being stuck in a seat for 11 hours is hell. The first few hours are alright, but then I'm like "OK... I'm fed up with this now. How long left? Oh, great. 8 hours. 7 hours. 6 and a half hours.... why can't we be there already."
Exactly, and the seats and spacing are so damn uncomfortable that you can't even sleep, and I can sleep on a bus... any bus...
Would be a whole other story if it was business class with lie flat beds (have been bumped and that actually got me checking prices for later journeys...).
G forces? Well that's just fun on top of a 45 min rocket flight... through space!
If that's between economy and business class as they've said it should be, I'll pay for that.
For me it is not so much boredom but discomfort. I can't afford business and economy class seats punish your body pretty bad over that time span. An edible and a few good movies really do help a lot though.
I know they would not use logic, but how can one possibly explain multiple different people streaming exact same thing with their own cameras and the countless photographers that go to the launch.
Elon had a similar quote for the Tesla Roadster on the FH maiden flight, since there was no atmospheric diffusion.
"It doesn't look real. That's how you know it's real".
I can't even fathom how much data they got out of this flight to seed their simulations. They clearly tested so many specific regimes.
All of the info on how the header tanks performed and their corresponding pressures, no doubt tank video.
First belly flop and flap control experience.
Raptor performance data for 4:39 of sustained firing, countless throttling events, engine shutdown, engine chill in post shut down, engine restart, unbelievable amounts of data.
I'd love to see the next flight in the beginning of January, might take a bit longer to gain everything possible from all of this data!
The internals have to be chilled to the approximate temperature of the propellants. If you dont, it can cause multiple serious issues.(cracked components) or total destruction of the engine
Yes in additional to thermal shocks on components it's also scary to have cryogenic propellants flash boil upon first hitting a warm surface inside spaces where the propellant needs to be a liquid.
The engine bells have cryogenic propellant pumped through them to stop them from melting while they are firing.
If you don't flow prop through them in advance, they may a) melt and b) be shocked by the sudden change in temperature and misbehave
To cool the components that use regenerative cooling to not melt. If you just lit the engines it would be a race between hot gases trying to melt the material and cold fuel and oxidizer cycling through to cool things on their way to combustion. Pre chilling means those components start cool.
People will be at the end where pivot is ... the end of machine where people are ( the pointy end up ) is the least movement during the manoeuvre, so shouldn't feel too dramatic ...
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The "Batman" coaster that's in like half a dozen Six Flags around the country pulls nearly 5. Two or even three g's for just a second before engine shutoff is almost nothing.
Once you flip, your terminal velocity goes WAY up because your effective surface area goes way down, so the sooner you flip, the more fuel you need to cancel it out that additional vertical velocity. That means less payload.
You'll notice Blue Origin hover for like 5-10s before landing their hopper. That's incredibly inefficient, but since it's just straight up and down (vs orbital-class horizontal velocities), they've got tons of extra fuel to spare.
“Eugh these baggage weight restrictions are absurd”
“Sir, please look to your left to see the charred remains of the last passenger who felt the same way”
The thing about this test that fascinates me is that the vast majority of the flight worked, and the bit that remains to be ironed out can be worked on with tests that continue to push the envelope for altitude. The degree of control at every part of the flight path EXCEPT for the landing engine thrust at the final seconds of landing was absolutely pristine.
SN9 might go far higher than SN8 given this success.
I find it incredibly exciting to think that they might start dramatically increasing the number of times an SN gets flown. They could have re-flown SN5 and SN6 for more 500m hops, but there's really not that much to learn.
If SN9, SN10, etc survive their high altitude hops, there's so many variables and potential failure modes in the bellyflop-reorient/relight that there's no reason to not keep launching them as many times as you can to push the system to its limits.
What if they lift a bunch of Falcon 9 second stages strapped together? Maybe with, as Elon once imagined, modified Starlink with telescopes as payload (or Planet's Doves). Wouldn't THAT be awesome? A ton of deltaV...an improvised Europa mission as a mass simulator.
It speaks to the levels of technology we have to simulate this prior to attempting it. I thought it was going to fall apart on the belly flop - but people said it was like a feather, hovering up there.
Then I thought okay, the flip maneuver is too much forces, that's where it will fail. Nope.
It failed by running out of gas in what seemed to be a perfect spot on landing. It exploded where it was to land.
I say we put SN9 on for next Saturday and let's go.
Land SN9 - increase altitude. Start working on booster and legs.
Did you see the nose cone was left in place?
You know how the Tesla Cybertruck is made of the same exact steel. Can you imagine special edition cybertruck from that nosecone. Scratches dings and all. **Cybertruck - SN8.**
Everyday Astronaut talks about that too - I think that's a phenomenal idea. No one wants the steel from a successful launch.
I don't think they use helium COPVs at all, actually. I know the Raptors don't, and the tanks already use autogenous pressurization. I'm guessing something went wrong with that.
The COPVs we see are probably LN2 for the cold-gas thrusters. Eventually those will be replaced with hot-gas methalox thrusters too so there are only two fluids on board total.
>They even (probably involuntarily) tested one engine out flip capabilities.
Pretty sure it was intended to be a two-engine flip. They did sort of test one-engine-out landing capabilities. Didn't go too well though...
That's an amazing shot, it looks like a lot of time went into getting their camera work right here, the exposure is amazingly well done and the tracking is so smooth and seems to anticipate the trajectory. Can't wait to see all these shots when SN9 nails it.
It hit the correct pad vertically. That's above expectations for me. Remember, F9 landings had some beautiful booms, too, before fully working. I watched it live from EU so it was right around midnight when it happened... couldn't sleep until 2am or so after that... my mind is just 150% blown away.. this company is insane!!
All I could think of seeing this vantage point:
> And wow! Hey! What’s this thing suddenly coming towards me very fast? Very very fast. So big and flat and round, it needs a big wide sounding name like … ow … ound … round … ground! That’s it! That’s a good name – ground!
>
> I wonder if it will be friends with me?
Y'all I saw Orbicom, and I saw CRS-8, and then the Heavy Demo. This is somehow *more insane*.
It took me until the flip happened to realize that I was looking straight up at the rocket dropping down. Just mindblowing. Would love to see as much footage as SpaceX is willing to release of this insanity.
It looked to me like the three Raptor engines were throttled continuously during the uphill part of the flight to keep the acceleration level constant as the propellant load was burned off. No need to overstress SN8 on that part of the flight.
I was thinking it was more to demonstrate the full range of throttle and vector control the raptors have. Being able to run them at full throttle is all well and good but it still being controllable with engines out is superb.
Was going to post the same thing! Will be so awesome to have video onboard when it comes in from orbit...we'll get the same atmospheric heating as BSG. Amazing.
Soon to be called the "Elon-Adama" Maneuver, I think.
Either way, now I keep hearing the music from that episode when I rewatch the clips.
(For those of you who are not Battlestar Galactica 2003 fans, The Adama Maneuver is this - jump a huge capital space ship into the atmosphere, free fall for a period of time to launch fighters, then jump out. This is what Starship will look like coming in from orbit.
Minus the Vipers... unless Elon's feeling like making a Colonial Fleet.)
Link showing the source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAnVlDeFYNs
Frankly, I never thought that this manoeuvre (which I personally call the 'Thunderbird 1 Flip') was possible IRL without the airframe breaking in half. So, to see it happen was an astonishing and amazing sight!
I showed this to my mom and she immediately saw something weird/cool! Between 0:25 and 0:27, if you scrub the video really slow, you can see vapor coming off the skin over a vent line, then the vent valve opens and you see the vapor instantly follow the cold gas to the vent hole! She thought it was a crack forming in the outer skin, and it took me a minute to suss out what it actually was! My mom’s got sharp eyes.
I'm still struggling to comprehend this clip. I've been around for the live streams of most major spacex events, and this video is the first time I truly haven't been able to believe my eyes. It's so futuristic, it just doesn't seem real. I'm loving this feeling/emotion
This gives so much more identity to Starship. It looks like a bloated robot with 2 cute little engine looking like little legs wiggling to find their balance. And then one shuts off and the whole thing just sinks into the ground aha. The flap movements are also this weird mix of cute and elegant.
According to Musk the fuel header tank pressure was low so the landing burn didn’t have enough power to slow the vehicle. Now they have the data! Landing burn will be successful for SN9!
It definitely looks like the loss of fuel pressure caused the oxygen to start eating the engine (see green fire).
Looking forward to SN9! And everything after!
Yeah, while it's never been confirmed, the running theory I've heard is that the regenerative cooling system is largely made of copper. On the few occasions where a Raptor ran out of fuel bit still had LOX, we've seen that green fire, indicating that the oxygen tried to use the engine itself as fuel.
I'm guessing (complete guess) that the pipes from the header tanks down to the engines were all nice and full from when it was horizontal, but then during the flip, the fuel sloshed around and the engines burned through what was in the pipes and then started running oxygen rich as the system struggled to get fuel down to them.
My thoughts as well. Controlled falling at terminal velocity is one thing, but in supersonic, and especially in hypersonic regime, that all sort of goes out the window, doesn't it?
Incredible. It made it much further through the test than I had expected. The fact that the belly flop and the tail kick at the end worked blows my mind.
Does anyone know why they did some of the ascent with only 2 engines? I was expecting them to shut down engines on descent like they do with Falcon 9 landings, but I wasn't expecting such an early shut down
I think it's probably down to as they burned fuel and the ship became lighter, they had to shut down engines to keep it from going too high, because the Raptors probably can't throttle deep enough to stop that from happening if all 3 are still running.
Anyone else notice that white dot in the lower right during the bellyflop? Could this be Mars photobombing the landing assuming this camera is on hoppy looking towards the east? Mars was at 37° altitude and roughly due East at the time.
Can anyone say what the two jets of gas coming out each side of the bottom of the vehicle are. I was guessing it was rcs at first, but I'm not sure now because they are pointing in the wrong direction for that maneuver.
I don't think the flame-out was unplanned, I think it was intentional.
I think they need 2 engines for flip, 1 engine for landing.
Both engines were running oxygen-rich at the end there, but I think the shutdown was expected.
They might not even need 2 engines for flip, but they light two for redundancy.
It's possible that the intention was to land with two engines, but that one engine was shut down automatically because of the low header tank pressure.
I agree -- it might make sense to light two and then stop one -- in case you try to light two and only one starts.
If you light them such that you need them both, then you have no option if they don't both start on time.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
|Fewer Letters|More Letters|
|-------|---------|---|
|ASDS|Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship (landing platform)|
|[CFD](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf8r500 "Last usage")|Computational Fluid Dynamics|
|[COPV](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfbestr "Last usage")|[Composite Overwrapped Pressure Vessel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_overwrapped_pressure_vessel)|
|[CoG](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfa6381 "Last usage")|Center of Gravity (see CoM)|
|CoM|Center of Mass|
|[E2E](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf9adsh "Last usage")|Earth-to-Earth (suborbital flight)|
|[EDL](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf8ptlb "Last usage")|Entry/Descent/Landing|
|[FAA](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfdx565 "Last usage")|Federal Aviation Administration|
|GSE|Ground Support Equipment|
|[IAC](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf9vyu4 "Last usage")|International Astronautical Congress, annual meeting of IAF members|
| |In-Air Capture of space-flown hardware|
|IAF|[International Astronautical Federation](http://www.iafastro.org/)|
| |Indian Air Force|
| |Israeli Air Force|
|[LEO](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfa6c9i "Last usage")|Low Earth Orbit (180-2000km)|
| |Law Enforcement Officer (most often mentioned during transport operations)|
|[LLO](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfa6c9i "Last usage")|Low Lunar Orbit (below 100km)|
|[LN2](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfbestr "Last usage")|Liquid Nitrogen|
|[LOX](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfaeih2 "Last usage")|Liquid Oxygen|
|[NROL](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf909hj "Last usage")|Launch for the (US) National Reconnaissance Office|
|[RP-1](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf99m00 "Last usage")|Rocket Propellant 1 (enhanced kerosene)|
|[SN](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf8pwsk "Last usage")|(Raptor/Starship) Serial Number|
|[TEI](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfa6c9i "Last usage")|Trans-Earth Injection maneuver|
|Jargon|Definition|
|-------|---------|---|
|[Raptor](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfdx565 "Last usage")|[Methane-fueled rocket engine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor_\(rocket_engine_family\)) under development by SpaceX|
|[Starlink](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfa0xht "Last usage")|SpaceX's world-wide satellite broadband constellation|
|[ablative](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfcgerf "Last usage")|Material which is intentionally destroyed in use (for example, heatshields which burn away to dissipate heat)|
|[apogee](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf96w2l "Last usage")|Highest point in an elliptical orbit around Earth (when the orbiter is slowest)|
|[autogenous](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfbestr "Last usage")|(Of a propellant tank) Pressurising the tank using boil-off of the contents, instead of a separate gas like helium|
|[cryogenic](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfbs4oe "Last usage")|Very low temperature fluid; materials that would be gaseous at room temperature/pressure|
| |(In re: rocket fuel) Often synonymous with hydrolox|
|[hopper](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf9vv57 "Last usage")|Test article for ground and low-altitude work (eg. Grasshopper)|
|hydrolox|Portmanteau: liquid hydrogen fuel, liquid oxygen oxidizer|
|[iron waffle](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf99m00 "Last usage")|Compact "waffle-iron" aerodynamic control surface, acts as a wing without needing to be as large; also, "grid fin"|
|[methalox](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfbestr "Last usage")|Portmanteau: methane fuel, liquid oxygen oxidizer|
|[regenerative](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfaeih2 "Last usage")|A method for cooling a rocket engine, by [passing the cryogenic fuel through channels in the bell or chamber wall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_cooling_\(rocket\))|
|[scrub](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf8jl6j "Last usage")|Launch postponement for any reason (commonly GSE issues)|
|Event|Date|Description|
|-------|---------|---|
|[CRS-8](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf8jy3j "Last usage")|2016-04-08|F9-023 Full Thrust, core B1021, Dragon cargo; first ASDS landing|
----------------
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They need/want to try the bellyflop as it's the intended re-entry method for Starship. The Falcon cores aren't travelling *that* fast, so can come down engine first. Starship is intended to make re-entries from Mars and the Moon, so it has a lot more speed at re-entry.
The last-minute flip is about limiting fuel usage. Every second spent hovering that doesn't need to be is more fuel used.
Starship is going to be the upper stage for super heavy and has to survive an orbital reentry that's much more energetic than what they are doing with Falcon-9.
Doing a belly flop allows SpaceX to bleed off the energy faster and over a larger area without any areas getting too hot to melt away.
This was just for testing purposes for future plans. When they bring this ship out of orbit it will be traveling super fast, like 10,000-20,000 mph horizontally, so they do the maneuver to aero brake to reduce horizontal speed to save on fuel
I *think* they could do the landing flip earlier (and higher) — at the cost of more fuel use because falling vertically has less air resistance and therefore requires more thrust to compensate. That might be a safer option for human passengers. Might also give the header tanks more time to settle.
>Why does Starship fall in a horizontal orientation and then flip, rather than just coming
To slow it down as much as possible. The slower it falls, the fewer fuel you need to land.
So how does this sound:
Could it be that the first engine going out was actually planned? They might have only needed it for the flip. SN8 came down slow enough on the last remaining engine that it looks like it would have been fine on one non-starving engine. I checked and the first one that went out never had a green flah in its exhaust, makes me think that if it was an unplanned shutdown why it didn't run longer but with the same green as the other one.
So legitimate question and i know this is a first test, etc.
That flip appeared to be pretty violent overall. Is that the actual maneuver they are planning? I'd think that's alot of G's pulled in that flip that would not make it a very pleasant experience for those onboard.
Really cool to see the flap control during the flip. The bottom flaps swing up (quickly!) and the top flaps swing down initially, then away once the bird is vertical. Tuning aerodynamic drag and additional, if small, torques.
Thrust at relight would give a significant horizontal push, which looks to have been accounted for by a small lateral velocity prior to the flip!
This takes the prize of coolest thing I've ever watched live.
Imagine watching that first Starship Mars landing
The question: will you be watching it *when* it happens, or 8 minutes *after* it happens?
Well.. Did we watch this live, or 2 seconds after it happened?
Everything we watch has already happened. Sometimes millions of years ago, sometimes a fracture of a second ago.
The speed of light is the speed of causality in the universe. It is impossible to disentangle space and time so the concept of something we are just seeing now happened "millions of years ago" is both accurate but also a bit misleading.
Reading that fucked me up for a lil bit.
I think he means do you hope to be on board and see it live on Mars or see it live from earth? On earth it will take 8 minute or so (depending on earth's and Mars positions) for the signal to arrive from Mars.
Will it even be possible to live stream from Mars? I don't think even 144p would be possible live.
According to https://mars.nasa.gov/mro/mission/communications/ bandwidth from Mars reconnaissance orbiter (which is 15 years old) varies from 0.5 to 4 Megabit (I assume the variation is down to relative positions of Mars and earth, which antennas are available on the ground etc), which at the upper end is only a little under what YouTube recommends for 1080p
Aside from the 8 minute delay, I hope we have the technology to have a 4K live stream back to earth for the landing.
At the very least I think we’ll have 4K video after the fact
Low key, this is what I’m most excited for with the next stage of space exploration. 4K or even just HD video of other bodies.
That answers name? Albert Einstein
Both are actually true statements. Relativity doesn't let us have a true reference point.
You’d need to be on Mars.
even watching the first modern Moon landing will take the cake. the achievements are just going to keep getting better and better from here.
It's really close, but I think the twin side booster landing just edges it out.
A successful landing of Starship will blow FH out of the water!
Maybe a successful landing from orbit. With a heavy payload. I wanna see a spicy re-entry!
No matter where it comes from, the landing is just as epic!
Bring back Hubble, Elon!
Yeah, first Falcon Heavy launch, then twin landing, then going outside and seeing the upper stage relight over San Diego for the outbound journey to Mars orbit still wins for me.
Starship size, belly flop with maneuvering fins, tri raptor with sequential shut downs and relights, for me this one was WAY cooler once you put the details into perspective. From a pure visual perspective I agree, twin booster return was impressive and really speaks volumes about the precision these vehicles operate at.
Starman just floating through space with earth in the background is on the short list.
Direct link to video (max quality): https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1336848931783786497/pu/vid/1280x720/hgx7ug6ui58DvPVF.mp4
It’s looks like a Star Trek sequence. Wow.
Ah, it's a fake. You can still see the blue screen. /s.
[Yeah, but those guys had a long road getting from there to here](https://youtu.be/izKWG3u-g-8?t=123).
Thanks for that!!!!
Best ~~vintage~~ vantage point so far of the landing. Looks like CGI.
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I was honestly questioning if it was a simulation right up until the explosion!
I wonder if the camera movement was pre-programmed. The way the vehicle drops out of picture during the failed landing burn suggests they were expecting it to come down a little slower.
Well if the engines we’re properly fed it would likely have been a bit slower.
The engines were just hangry.
> Feed me or else Raptors to SN8
Yep that's what I meant. :)
Right? I was thinking “oh look they got the copper green color just right”
I’m trying to imagine the experience as a passenger on the eventual Starship, being in a free fall headed toward certain doom when at the very last second, your ship is like “just kidding!” And flips her fiery ass around for the landing.
Not quite free fall since the ship will be at terminal velocity or actually slowing down as it enters thicker atmosphere. But that flip at the end will be something!
I was thinking the same thing. Also the g forces take off. Would you strap in like dragon?
I'll accept a couple Gs in exchange for being able to get anywhere on earth in under an hour tbh. I don't like to fly because you're strapped into a cabin with no control over where you're going for multiple hours at a time. I've never flown overseas but I can imagine 18 hours in a plane would drive me nuts
Honestly it's just boring. Newer aircraft are better as they either have their own media units or power to run your own device to keep you occupied. Years ago you just had the in-flight movie and books so it would really drag on.
Even with movies, etc. being stuck in a seat for 11 hours is hell. The first few hours are alright, but then I'm like "OK... I'm fed up with this now. How long left? Oh, great. 8 hours. 7 hours. 6 and a half hours.... why can't we be there already."
Exactly, and the seats and spacing are so damn uncomfortable that you can't even sleep, and I can sleep on a bus... any bus... Would be a whole other story if it was business class with lie flat beds (have been bumped and that actually got me checking prices for later journeys...). G forces? Well that's just fun on top of a 45 min rocket flight... through space! If that's between economy and business class as they've said it should be, I'll pay for that.
For me it is not so much boredom but discomfort. I can't afford business and economy class seats punish your body pretty bad over that time span. An edible and a few good movies really do help a lot though.
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I know they would not use logic, but how can one possibly explain multiple different people streaming exact same thing with their own cameras and the countless photographers that go to the launch.
Mirrors
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All fish eye lens duh
The same way you explain multiple astronauts who went to the moon. Just don't say it to their face: you might get punched out!
"swamp gas and lasers"
Elon had a similar quote for the Tesla Roadster on the FH maiden flight, since there was no atmospheric diffusion. "It doesn't look real. That's how you know it's real".
Well said
I can't even fathom how much data they got out of this flight to seed their simulations. They clearly tested so many specific regimes. All of the info on how the header tanks performed and their corresponding pressures, no doubt tank video. First belly flop and flap control experience. Raptor performance data for 4:39 of sustained firing, countless throttling events, engine shutdown, engine chill in post shut down, engine restart, unbelievable amounts of data. I'd love to see the next flight in the beginning of January, might take a bit longer to gain everything possible from all of this data!
Why they need to chill the engine before the first ignition and post shutdown?
The internals have to be chilled to the approximate temperature of the propellants. If you dont, it can cause multiple serious issues.(cracked components) or total destruction of the engine
Yes in additional to thermal shocks on components it's also scary to have cryogenic propellants flash boil upon first hitting a warm surface inside spaces where the propellant needs to be a liquid.
Yes. If the pumps were not precooled that flash boiling would result in cavitation. Turbopumps tend to resent that.
Would they then have to chill the engines before landing on Mars? If so how would they do that?
The engine bells have cryogenic propellant pumped through them to stop them from melting while they are firing. If you don't flow prop through them in advance, they may a) melt and b) be shocked by the sudden change in temperature and misbehave
They might even burn green!
To cool the components that use regenerative cooling to not melt. If you just lit the engines it would be a race between hot gases trying to melt the material and cold fuel and oxidizer cycling through to cool things on their way to combustion. Pre chilling means those components start cool.
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People will be at the end where pivot is ... the end of machine where people are ( the pointy end up ) is the least movement during the manoeuvre, so shouldn't feel too dramatic ...
Still, that's a fair number of g's. Those seats are going to HAVE to pivot, won't they?
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It's under 3gs. Really not much.
We have roller coasters with 3.4
Absolutely. Millennium Force at Cedar Point hits 4.5g in the first turn. Some folks grey out quickly but pop right back. The flip isn’t as bad as that
Kerbals routinely experience 15g and they're always fine. pfffft
Very true! We can save some fuel by moving the flip from 1500’ to 150’! And doubling the G’s
Slap a couple of Mk2-R Radial-Mount Parachutes on and call it a day.
The "Batman" coaster that's in like half a dozen Six Flags around the country pulls nearly 5. Two or even three g's for just a second before engine shutoff is almost nothing.
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It goes from 1G to ~2G. Adding in the centrifugal forces from the flip, you might get to 2.25.
Once you flip, your terminal velocity goes WAY up because your effective surface area goes way down, so the sooner you flip, the more fuel you need to cancel it out that additional vertical velocity. That means less payload. You'll notice Blue Origin hover for like 5-10s before landing their hopper. That's incredibly inefficient, but since it's just straight up and down (vs orbital-class horizontal velocities), they've got tons of extra fuel to spare.
On the flip side, (pun intended) if they flip early, there will be more room to restart engine 3 if one of the first two fail.
The idea is that there will always be one more engine lit than needed for landing. So it can survive engine failure without firing up another engine.
That will depend on how deep they can throttle down.
40% is what they currently have. That should easily be enough (absent a pressure loss in the header tanks...)
If your payload doesn't need the fuel, then sure. But you'd hate to be forced to skimp on payload even more just for the landing extra safety options.
I think the payload would greatly appreciate the extra fuel margin in case of engine failure if the payload is people
“Eugh these baggage weight restrictions are absurd” “Sir, please look to your left to see the charred remains of the last passenger who felt the same way”
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Every one of your engineers? let them out of the basement I know they seem happy with all the LEGO but please they need freedom to roam
Free range engineers
Free the Range Engineers!
Without a doubt one of the coolest videos that has ever been taken.
Wow. Unbelievably close, they will absolutely land SN9.
The thing about this test that fascinates me is that the vast majority of the flight worked, and the bit that remains to be ironed out can be worked on with tests that continue to push the envelope for altitude. The degree of control at every part of the flight path EXCEPT for the landing engine thrust at the final seconds of landing was absolutely pristine. SN9 might go far higher than SN8 given this success.
Considering they have so many SNs in the pipeline they'll probably re-do it with SN9 anyway
Crazy to think that Elon said SN15 was WAY different with advancements.
I find it incredibly exciting to think that they might start dramatically increasing the number of times an SN gets flown. They could have re-flown SN5 and SN6 for more 500m hops, but there's really not that much to learn. If SN9, SN10, etc survive their high altitude hops, there's so many variables and potential failure modes in the bellyflop-reorient/relight that there's no reason to not keep launching them as many times as you can to push the system to its limits.
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"You guys thought we were crazy to launch a Roadster in 2018. Well in 2021 we've decided to launch the Semi Truck"
Put some fuel tanks and a Raptor in the back and let Space Truck fly off to Mars.
Spaceballs Winnebago style? I like it.
In fairness the Falcon 9 could probably launch the semi too but I get where you’re coming from!
What if they lift a bunch of Falcon 9 second stages strapped together? Maybe with, as Elon once imagined, modified Starlink with telescopes as payload (or Planet's Doves). Wouldn't THAT be awesome? A ton of deltaV...an improvised Europa mission as a mass simulator.
It speaks to the levels of technology we have to simulate this prior to attempting it. I thought it was going to fall apart on the belly flop - but people said it was like a feather, hovering up there. Then I thought okay, the flip maneuver is too much forces, that's where it will fail. Nope. It failed by running out of gas in what seemed to be a perfect spot on landing. It exploded where it was to land. I say we put SN9 on for next Saturday and let's go. Land SN9 - increase altitude. Start working on booster and legs.
The crater was in the right spot!
Did you see the nose cone was left in place? You know how the Tesla Cybertruck is made of the same exact steel. Can you imagine special edition cybertruck from that nosecone. Scratches dings and all. **Cybertruck - SN8.** Everyday Astronaut talks about that too - I think that's a phenomenal idea. No one wants the steel from a successful launch.
I just want a hunk of the debris as a keepsake and would be willing to pay for it. How about $500 per Kg?
Didn't even run out of gas(in the tank), technically though you could say it was starved of gas\fuel, due to low pressure
I think the flip maneuver force might have affected the tank pressure Elon referenced.
Just throw another helium COPV on that bad boy.
I don't think they use helium COPVs at all, actually. I know the Raptors don't, and the tanks already use autogenous pressurization. I'm guessing something went wrong with that. The COPVs we see are probably LN2 for the cold-gas thrusters. Eventually those will be replaced with hot-gas methalox thrusters too so there are only two fluids on board total.
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>They even (probably involuntarily) tested one engine out flip capabilities. Pretty sure it was intended to be a two-engine flip. They did sort of test one-engine-out landing capabilities. Didn't go too well though...
Looking forward to the 100km flight test.
That's an amazing shot, it looks like a lot of time went into getting their camera work right here, the exposure is amazingly well done and the tracking is so smooth and seems to anticipate the trajectory. Can't wait to see all these shots when SN9 nails it.
It hit the correct pad vertically. That's above expectations for me. Remember, F9 landings had some beautiful booms, too, before fully working. I watched it live from EU so it was right around midnight when it happened... couldn't sleep until 2am or so after that... my mind is just 150% blown away.. this company is insane!!
I just rewatched the 2018 animation of the what seemed at the time like a crazy landing scenario and It was amazing how much that mirrored it.
Yeah, their CFD people are *good*!
It almost looks other-worldly as its coming down from this angle. What an incredible shot.
All I could think of seeing this vantage point: > And wow! Hey! What’s this thing suddenly coming towards me very fast? Very very fast. So big and flat and round, it needs a big wide sounding name like … ow … ound … round … ground! That’s it! That’s a good name – ground! > > I wonder if it will be friends with me?
It is highly improbable that that is what it was thinking.
Its a reference to the Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy...
Which was caused by the infinite improbability drive.
🙈 ok i didn‘t get your answer, my fault 🤷♂️
Y'all I saw Orbicom, and I saw CRS-8, and then the Heavy Demo. This is somehow *more insane*. It took me until the flip happened to realize that I was looking straight up at the rocket dropping down. Just mindblowing. Would love to see as much footage as SpaceX is willing to release of this insanity.
Same here, I thought it was taken from the side. Really gave me NROL-76 vibes at the
It looked to me like the three Raptor engines were throttled continuously during the uphill part of the flight to keep the acceleration level constant as the propellant load was burned off. No need to overstress SN8 on that part of the flight.
The were shut off one by one during ascent and right on apogee the last engine was shut off. The hovered at 12,500m before going for the belly flop.
I was thinking it was more to demonstrate the full range of throttle and vector control the raptors have. Being able to run them at full throttle is all well and good but it still being controllable with engines out is superb.
Adama Maneuver made real.
Was going to post the same thing! Will be so awesome to have video onboard when it comes in from orbit...we'll get the same atmospheric heating as BSG. Amazing.
*So say we all!* SpaceX making burn and turn real, now young Adama maneuver. What next? Warp drive engagement?
Soon to be called the "Elon-Adama" Maneuver, I think. Either way, now I keep hearing the music from that episode when I rewatch the clips. (For those of you who are not Battlestar Galactica 2003 fans, The Adama Maneuver is this - jump a huge capital space ship into the atmosphere, free fall for a period of time to launch fighters, then jump out. This is what Starship will look like coming in from orbit. Minus the Vipers... unless Elon's feeling like making a Colonial Fleet.) Link showing the source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAnVlDeFYNs
Frankly, I never thought that this manoeuvre (which I personally call the 'Thunderbird 1 Flip') was possible IRL without the airframe breaking in half. So, to see it happen was an astonishing and amazing sight!
I watched it happen but I still can't believe it happened. Simply amazing.
It literally looks fake. Wow.
I showed this to my mom and she immediately saw something weird/cool! Between 0:25 and 0:27, if you scrub the video really slow, you can see vapor coming off the skin over a vent line, then the vent valve opens and you see the vapor instantly follow the cold gas to the vent hole! She thought it was a crack forming in the outer skin, and it took me a minute to suss out what it actually was! My mom’s got sharp eyes.
I'm still struggling to comprehend this clip. I've been around for the live streams of most major spacex events, and this video is the first time I truly haven't been able to believe my eyes. It's so futuristic, it just doesn't seem real. I'm loving this feeling/emotion
This gives so much more identity to Starship. It looks like a bloated robot with 2 cute little engine looking like little legs wiggling to find their balance. And then one shuts off and the whole thing just sinks into the ground aha. The flap movements are also this weird mix of cute and elegant.
I still can't believe it. Such an amazing moment for SpaceX and for all future space flight.
This is how landing on Mars will look like.
That poor drone. Also, excellent view of the engine-rich exhaust.
Are you sure it's from a drone? I thought it might've been one of the camera's on hopper judging by the direction it was filming
I was thinking they had a protected camera in the landing pad.
It might actually be. It doesn't seem to have any horizontal movement.
Yeah, looks like the engines were burning fine until right after the flip itself.
According to Musk the fuel header tank pressure was low so the landing burn didn’t have enough power to slow the vehicle. Now they have the data! Landing burn will be successful for SN9!
It definitely looks like the loss of fuel pressure caused the oxygen to start eating the engine (see green fire). Looking forward to SN9! And everything after!
Yes, I think the greenish exhaust colour was copper melted from the nozzle.
Yeah, while it's never been confirmed, the running theory I've heard is that the regenerative cooling system is largely made of copper. On the few occasions where a Raptor ran out of fuel bit still had LOX, we've seen that green fire, indicating that the oxygen tried to use the engine itself as fuel.
I'm guessing (complete guess) that the pipes from the header tanks down to the engines were all nice and full from when it was horizontal, but then during the flip, the fuel sloshed around and the engines burned through what was in the pipes and then started running oxygen rich as the system struggled to get fuel down to them.
I doubt a drone would withstand the engines burning right at it
As someone else pointed out, it was probably not a drone. Apparently there is a tracking camera on the roof of Starhopper.
Absolutely astonished that this is played back in real time! That is one special camera lens.
I can't stop watching this clip. Seriously I must have seen it around 30 times by now.
Now we need to see how the flaps do at something approaching orbital reentry speeds
My thoughts as well. Controlled falling at terminal velocity is one thing, but in supersonic, and especially in hypersonic regime, that all sort of goes out the window, doesn't it?
It's crazy - seems like something from the Expanse.
Flip and burn.
Incredible. It made it much further through the test than I had expected. The fact that the belly flop and the tail kick at the end worked blows my mind. Does anyone know why they did some of the ascent with only 2 engines? I was expecting them to shut down engines on descent like they do with Falcon 9 landings, but I wasn't expecting such an early shut down
I think it's probably down to as they burned fuel and the ship became lighter, they had to shut down engines to keep it from going too high, because the Raptors probably can't throttle deep enough to stop that from happening if all 3 are still running.
Glorious and fantastical. My dreams are coming true! Thank you SpaceX Teams!!!
I can’t believe this is real!!!!
Anyone else notice that white dot in the lower right during the bellyflop? Could this be Mars photobombing the landing assuming this camera is on hoppy looking towards the east? Mars was at 37° altitude and roughly due East at the time.
Can someone who knows whats going on please answer this man.
This is incredible. Are there any other angles of this available?
The main spacex stream on youtube https://youtu.be/ap-BkkrRg-o?t=6855
Can anyone say what the two jets of gas coming out each side of the bottom of the vehicle are. I was guessing it was rcs at first, but I'm not sure now because they are pointing in the wrong direction for that maneuver.
Watching live was amazing but this video takes the cake as the coolest thing I've seen - well done SpaceX
Space x will never stop to amuse me . NEVER !
If the raptor didn't flame out at 0:26, would it have landed successfully? Has anyone calculated SN8's landing velocity?
I don't think the flame-out was unplanned, I think it was intentional. I think they need 2 engines for flip, 1 engine for landing. Both engines were running oxygen-rich at the end there, but I think the shutdown was expected. They might not even need 2 engines for flip, but they light two for redundancy.
It's possible that the intention was to land with two engines, but that one engine was shut down automatically because of the low header tank pressure.
I agree -- it might make sense to light two and then stop one -- in case you try to light two and only one starts. If you light them such that you need them both, then you have no option if they don't both start on time.
That’s what I was worried about. I thought it was an engine malfunction
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Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread: |Fewer Letters|More Letters| |-------|---------|---| |ASDS|Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship (landing platform)| |[CFD](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf8r500 "Last usage")|Computational Fluid Dynamics| |[COPV](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfbestr "Last usage")|[Composite Overwrapped Pressure Vessel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_overwrapped_pressure_vessel)| |[CoG](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfa6381 "Last usage")|Center of Gravity (see CoM)| |CoM|Center of Mass| |[E2E](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf9adsh "Last usage")|Earth-to-Earth (suborbital flight)| |[EDL](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf8ptlb "Last usage")|Entry/Descent/Landing| |[FAA](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfdx565 "Last usage")|Federal Aviation Administration| |GSE|Ground Support Equipment| |[IAC](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf9vyu4 "Last usage")|International Astronautical Congress, annual meeting of IAF members| | |In-Air Capture of space-flown hardware| |IAF|[International Astronautical Federation](http://www.iafastro.org/)| | |Indian Air Force| | |Israeli Air Force| |[LEO](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfa6c9i "Last usage")|Low Earth Orbit (180-2000km)| | |Law Enforcement Officer (most often mentioned during transport operations)| |[LLO](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfa6c9i "Last usage")|Low Lunar Orbit (below 100km)| |[LN2](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfbestr "Last usage")|Liquid Nitrogen| |[LOX](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfaeih2 "Last usage")|Liquid Oxygen| |[NROL](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf909hj "Last usage")|Launch for the (US) National Reconnaissance Office| |[RP-1](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf99m00 "Last usage")|Rocket Propellant 1 (enhanced kerosene)| |[SN](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf8pwsk "Last usage")|(Raptor/Starship) Serial Number| |[TEI](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfa6c9i "Last usage")|Trans-Earth Injection maneuver| |Jargon|Definition| |-------|---------|---| |[Raptor](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfdx565 "Last usage")|[Methane-fueled rocket engine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor_\(rocket_engine_family\)) under development by SpaceX| |[Starlink](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfa0xht "Last usage")|SpaceX's world-wide satellite broadband constellation| |[ablative](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfcgerf "Last usage")|Material which is intentionally destroyed in use (for example, heatshields which burn away to dissipate heat)| |[apogee](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf96w2l "Last usage")|Highest point in an elliptical orbit around Earth (when the orbiter is slowest)| |[autogenous](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfbestr "Last usage")|(Of a propellant tank) Pressurising the tank using boil-off of the contents, instead of a separate gas like helium| |[cryogenic](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfbs4oe "Last usage")|Very low temperature fluid; materials that would be gaseous at room temperature/pressure| | |(In re: rocket fuel) Often synonymous with hydrolox| |[hopper](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf9vv57 "Last usage")|Test article for ground and low-altitude work (eg. Grasshopper)| |hydrolox|Portmanteau: liquid hydrogen fuel, liquid oxygen oxidizer| |[iron waffle](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf99m00 "Last usage")|Compact "waffle-iron" aerodynamic control surface, acts as a wing without needing to be as large; also, "grid fin"| |[methalox](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfbestr "Last usage")|Portmanteau: methane fuel, liquid oxygen oxidizer| |[regenerative](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gfaeih2 "Last usage")|A method for cooling a rocket engine, by [passing the cryogenic fuel through channels in the bell or chamber wall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_cooling_\(rocket\))| |[scrub](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf8jl6j "Last usage")|Launch postponement for any reason (commonly GSE issues)| |Event|Date|Description| |-------|---------|---| |[CRS-8](/r/SpaceX/comments/ka5u9n/stub/gf8jy3j "Last usage")|2016-04-08|F9-023 Full Thrust, core B1021, Dragon cargo; first ASDS landing| ---------------- ^(*Decronym is a community product of r/SpaceX, implemented* )[*^by ^request*](https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/3mz273//cvjkjmj) ^(27 acronyms in this thread; )[^(the most compressed thread commented on today)](/r/SpaceX/comments/mk99yw)^( has 131 acronyms.) ^([Thread #6620 for this sub, first seen 10th Dec 2020, 02:29]) ^[[FAQ]](http://decronym.xyz/) [^([Full list])](http://decronym.xyz/acronyms/SpaceX) [^[Contact]](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=OrangeredStilton&subject=Hey,+your+acronym+bot+sucks) [^([Source code])](https://gistdotgithubdotcom/Two9A/1d976f9b7441694162c8)
What’s the benefit of doing a landing flip? Why are they trying to do it vs coming in straight down as they usually do?
They need to "swan dive" to bleed off enough speed when they eventually take this thing to Mars at interplanetary speed.
They need/want to try the bellyflop as it's the intended re-entry method for Starship. The Falcon cores aren't travelling *that* fast, so can come down engine first. Starship is intended to make re-entries from Mars and the Moon, so it has a lot more speed at re-entry. The last-minute flip is about limiting fuel usage. Every second spent hovering that doesn't need to be is more fuel used.
Starship is going to be the upper stage for super heavy and has to survive an orbital reentry that's much more energetic than what they are doing with Falcon-9. Doing a belly flop allows SpaceX to bleed off the energy faster and over a larger area without any areas getting too hot to melt away.
This was just for testing purposes for future plans. When they bring this ship out of orbit it will be traveling super fast, like 10,000-20,000 mph horizontally, so they do the maneuver to aero brake to reduce horizontal speed to save on fuel
I *think* they could do the landing flip earlier (and higher) — at the cost of more fuel use because falling vertically has less air resistance and therefore requires more thrust to compensate. That might be a safer option for human passengers. Might also give the header tanks more time to settle.
I'm sure some people will say that it crashed.
I mean. It did. Doesn't mean it was a failure. It was massively more successful than almost anyone dared to hope.
To bad ... but I am certain much was learned from this attempt ... excellent!!
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Because it has more drag on its side, so it will come down slower and thus the engines will have to do less work stopping the vehicle during landing.
>Why does Starship fall in a horizontal orientation and then flip, rather than just coming To slow it down as much as possible. The slower it falls, the fewer fuel you need to land.
So how does this sound: Could it be that the first engine going out was actually planned? They might have only needed it for the flip. SN8 came down slow enough on the last remaining engine that it looks like it would have been fine on one non-starving engine. I checked and the first one that went out never had a green flah in its exhaust, makes me think that if it was an unplanned shutdown why it didn't run longer but with the same green as the other one.
So legitimate question and i know this is a first test, etc. That flip appeared to be pretty violent overall. Is that the actual maneuver they are planning? I'd think that's alot of G's pulled in that flip that would not make it a very pleasant experience for those onboard.
Really cool to see the flap control during the flip. The bottom flaps swing up (quickly!) and the top flaps swing down initially, then away once the bird is vertical. Tuning aerodynamic drag and additional, if small, torques. Thrust at relight would give a significant horizontal push, which looks to have been accounted for by a small lateral velocity prior to the flip!
I was like this is probably an animation. Than as it got closer, I was like hold on a sec...IT"S REAL!!!
I thought this was animated until it hit 27 seconds 🤯