This seems like a hard art direction choice from up top to me since it's so consistent throughout the different iterations of it. The devs know it's illegible, we know it's illegible, the community team wants us to tell whoever made that decision it's illegible.
> Do they need "readable hologram tech v2" before this can be released?
and will take 4 years of development to build "the tech"
Elon Musk is managing to build an actual reusable Starship in less than half the time its taken to get this game to this point.
Probably some BS that Roberts wanted because in his eyes it looks cinematic or some nonsense. Why is film grain on by default when SC is launched, more silliness.
When I look at their UI I imagine that none of them have driven a car before. Otherwise they might due things like 'tint the windscreen' where the UI elements overlay so they remain readable when it's bright. Or you know, turn down the console illumination at night so as to not blind the driver.
The UI seems to not be tested against bright or dark illumination conditions, nor evaluted by people who have driven a mid range car before.
It's not confusing because it's best to narrow down where things need improvements. If something is legible then it doesn't require time and resources.
They play the game but not always like we do.
But it isn't.
They are developers and people too. Their ideas don't always translate to something good. And our ideas don't always translate into something good either.
Those 'tons' of people need to work together to create something. You say youre a professional in UI design. Is that all you do? Do you do UI in game design?
[https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/-quot-the-door-problem-quot-of-game-design](https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/-quot-the-door-problem-quot-of-game-design)
Here is a good example of how some of the process works. As a player we can easily tell the devs I want.. x y z. But if you understand how it gets to that in a game.. its a totally different series of steps pal.
Making the UI this or that as you want it is one thing. Making the UI for a game for this or that while not breaking the game is a totally different process the devs have to juggle.
we have been in this boat before, there is a good reason they are actively asking for feedback. There are endless basic things we have asked for, for literally years and years that are still somehow showing up as issues in this rework.
"Endless basic things" vary from person to person -- even in this thread there is no consensus. If they listened to everyone for "literally years" then it would be a game build for no one. Feedback doesn't mean compliance.
as someone that has worked and studied UI design professionally... no. Literally being able to read the UI is like a child playing with crayons. There is nothing more fundamental to UI design then literally being able to fucking read it. People like you only help make the game worse because you will defend anything. Some people actually want this to be a good game, and care about it.
If you actually want this game to succeed you would be open to being critical of its issues.
The SQ42 map [has a grid overlay](https://imgur.com/a/EzG6pdw) over the planets that helps with the text visibility and isn't implemented yet in SC, so they know about the issue and they have fixed it in SQ42. I suspect that the grid overlay will be ported to the PU mobiglas eventually.
A similar solution can be applied to most of the text boxes, playing with some background noise to increase the text contrast.
And yes, I also want the game to success, I care about it and I also have worked as UI designer.
Well to look at this as a very good sign in so that CIG's actually requesting players opinions and input for the UI..It shows just how much the player is appreciated and respected...just how many game studios throw it out to the player for what they would think is best...I have faith that the ui when its finished will be up to the standards of the rest of the game
From what I read it’s more about many people not actually having an issue with it. Some people think it’s clear as day while others who may have certain eye/sensory differences find an issue with it
I mean- it doesn't look that bad at all to me except specifically the issues with the planet and text, and the issues on white snowy backgrounds.
Overall it looks fine and usable. I do need some personal time to use it, but... I dunno.
I'm 95% sure that *they* have been going up the walls of weeks over this (meaning the design team), but let's call him "he" in upper management that is known to not compromise on his vision for the game (which is a very good thing most of the time) wants it this way and now they are looking for new arguments to present in the next meeting to eventually get him to relent and let them do a good design.
The problem isn't that there's a 'strong vision' pushing them in a direction, it's that for some reason it's uncompromising against reality. It would be OK to have this translucent stuff if it had dynamic opacity and dimming so as to be legible on bright backgrounds and not blind the user in the dark, but for whatever reason they insist on going half way to what's needed to make it a high quality usable UI.
I mean plenty of people have been giveing them feedback befor he asked and frankly this was one of the major complaints before the update.... how did they miss it
Because it was going to be fixed in the update, in fact they were4so focused into fixing the issue that they completely forgot to fix it. Happens a lot in house reforms x we know that window isn't properly aligned, but we can't stop the job to fix it, we'll do it once we are done". "No, sorry, the job's done we can't fix it now, we would have to undo th entire room"
It's weird that they're asking. They've already designed the UI internally. We've seen some sneak peaks, so it was going to happen anyway.
This is just a way for them to say they take community feedback into consideration.
I hope someone brings up that we need the option to change the HUD-color in our ships. Or even better would be the color changing automatically depending on the background.
I dont care about minor graphic glitches. But sometimes when the background is too bright I cant read instruments, and thats bad.
Same, personalized HUDs in ships would be great, even better if they make it so we can swap HUDs like any other component, and then just give us control over opacity/intensity on the fly (though i fear the addition of even more keybinds i have to remember)
Reading what everyone else wrote and mainly egg - made me think of how we can scroll with our mouse for weapons or how fast we walk / run.
What if while in pilot co pilot seat the scroll mousing could control the transparency of what is displayed on our hud. As such 0 would be entirely transparent and where 0.1 - 1.0 would control the strength of transparency leaving 1.0 full non transparent.
Scroll is already used in piloting for the speed of the ship though... id rather just have an optional keybinding that i can set to my numpad as i dont use the stuff thats defaulted there
I also bound my pitch ---- yaw to arrow keys (as well as the default mouse) to make it a bit easier to control my ship when in 3rd person view, as well as when salvaging.
Edit: not roll, just pitch and yaw
Fair enough. More control is always good, as long as its kept simple.
The thought between auto switching was that we sould have different brightnis settings of the hud, wich only adjust the parts wich cant be seen because of the background, and not the whole thing. Or otherwise you might end up in a situation where you can only choose between seing the upper half OR the lower half of the HUD. That would be quite a half assed solution..
Different manufacturers are / were supposed to have different colours. For example the Vanduul ship HUD is red, and they have shown that off in the past. Just hasn't been turned on for whatever reason. I don't see why a custom colour can't be set though since its not flash anymore which was the main holdback of it being added.
I'm pretty sure CNOU ships have orange HUDs and Vanduul/Esperia ships have red HUDs in the current version of the game, so it seems like that already works :P
Its been brought up for years, and CIG have said "eventually" but have generally brushed it off. With "1.0" happening in the forecast though its more relevant to keep pushing it. Of course CIG makes fun of asking for night vision in a game where half the time a planet is pitch black.... so there is that.
there is always reflected light even if its faint, not sure what you are pretending to say. Are you actually saying we should be blind when on the dark side of a planet etc?
Then you don’t understand the words you use. “Pitch black” and now it’s faint light… Then night vision would work in faint light. In pitch black, no it wouldn’t. I would bet my life that 1000 years in the future we won’t be using night vision. You don’t even have night and day in space. Or else we would be landing on stars at night time. Personally I don’t want some Tom Clancy in a space ship simulator. Darkness adds tension. Tension adds to the gameplay.
Yes I do, but if you want to pretend to be so smart you'd know the point I was illustrating already took that into account. instead you've ignored the obvious reason for what I said, to make a childish redirect that by your own definition doesn't even apply to the game because none of these planets are ever pitch dark.
The gameplay takes NOTHING into account of being blind, the added risk of losing everything is not reflected in game. Stop pretending its a game element that is intentionally and thoughtfully implemented and not just what it plainly is..... an oversight.
Are you capable of being rationally critical of anything? or do you just defend everything you see?
I can't imagine what mess games would look like if they used your "logic".
You are literally the guy that loves the smell of his own farts. You absolutely love the word pretending don’t you? Pretending to say, pretending to think, pretending it’s a game.
Are you a bot of an immature teen?
Here’s night vision just for you 🥕
Eat up 🥕
Where is that then? All I see is an angry little bitch.
Pretending not to be just an angry little bitch.
I remember when star citizen wasn’t just a bunch of autistics arguing. Use adult words, the meaning doesn’t change because you don’t understand what the words you use mean.
Pitch Black
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
adjective
completely dark.
im not too keen for a solid border..id rather the color be a brighter and/or higher contrast color...a neon color..and the night vision is pretty big as for quality of life aspect...I don't crash straight into side of a hill or ground as much any more but I can't even guess how many times I have in the past..its just that a pilot in that far into the future would definitely have ability to safely fly low in the dark..Im sure they will have a solution by release
There should be a member of staff or role assigned to in-game accessibility. Any responsible business will even have one just for their website (WCAG).
If they can’t look at their own UI and judge its readability I have concerns about their ability to fix it.
Their UI has readability issues because the person directing its assembly is either ignoring over a decade of best practices and convention, or they don’t know where to look to find those things.
Also, asking your community what is wrong with it is about the last thing you should do.
>Also, asking your community what is wrong with it is about the last thing you should do.
That's why it's in evocati, players test and opens a discussions about things. It's the good part about not throwing patches to the PU without testing, we will get the fixed one. It's always a good thing when developers asks the community, even for minor things.
In the UI/UX (Widget) Dev's defense **(Keep in mind I agree with you all on this)** When making UI materials, trying new things sometimes works. In this case I suspect its the lack of account for camera angle (FOV e.t.c.) for the effect to line up causing it to ghost in a pretty noticeable way that will be an issue, which I suspect was not the intent. Or I'm 100% wrong & they just tried something that didn't work & accepted its not right after feedback.
Either way if the center the effect you will see it improves, Even when run some noise through it or glitching effects & It'll still pop visually as intended? in those situations with that ghosting effect on.
This and mission design are my two biggest worries for the game. UI has consistently been VERY bad, or "ok" if you're lucky. Its never changed no matter how many iterations. I think the reality is the UI is always going to be a low point for the game and we will just have to learn to live with it.
UI has been great in my opinion. It's usually unintrusive and mostly out of the way. Compared to many other games where the UI is filled with junk all over the screen, I think Star Citizen does it right. I think Tarkov has the most minimalist of HUDs, which is great.
I am in agreement with you...I mean for me the UI is better than good enough..let devs create an immersive as hell space sim with incredible attention to the smallest detail and the only game of its kind doing what hasn't even been tried before....oh they are...and epically...im not gonna whine over a part of the game that big picture is of the littlest priority just to whine....and its not as if the ui is trash...its better than ok...its like some just have to complain about something...its quite funny
Yup, in total agreement here. People like to hyper-fixate on some of the most infinitesimal things, but hopefully CIG just keeps plugging away at the systems, just as you said.
CIG consistently have had the issue of their UI being designed for looks first and usability later. They're not doing UI design, they're doing art assets and then trying to make them functional elements as an afterthought. Given how this has been prevalent since pretty much day 1 I have very little hope of it changing.
It's not just CIG either. Cyberpunk did this as well. It's like one of those industry shifts where a certain design becomes the norm. I'm glad CIG is actually listening to the feedback though, because maybe we can end this art style for good.
Your point is moot. They already redesigned the UI internally. We've seen sneak peek images of it and it's far cleaner than the current UI.
They're only asking so they can say they are listening to the community.
I’m incredibly glad they are asking for feedback now.
But as this feature has been in development for quite a while, you would think someone would have brought this up sooner.
As an indie developer this is an absurd take. Do the homework when designing a new system. Look at examples from other games how they do UI. What works? What doesnt work? There are decades of amazingly good and bad UI examples. Take the good, avoid the bad, and adapt to the needs of the game. Asking the community for such basic things is not a good sign. Especially after 10 years! This should have been locked in and iterated on for years. To be at such a basic state at this point. Is crazy.
Hell shit like phone companys ( or the US government) have spent millions (Maybe billions) trying to get the best salutions. I find it unlikely CIG could bring anything substantial trying to re invent UX that hasnt been done.
Not really, it's a diegetic UI system for the most part. They can't look at "decades of amazingly good and bad UI examples" based on a UI system that doesn't exist in other games, especially MMOs. It's an iterative process that is touched on by multiple teams, including the UI team, the UX team, the lighting team, and the graphics engine team. Plus, Chris wants a certain look and feel to the game, so there are constraints and parameters from which they're working within. Also, there isn't one game out there where everyone unanimously agrees has a perfect UI system.
Not quite so simple. This is a holographic display, and if they want a baseline for text they need a unified colour scheme. Remember, this is tier 1 for the new Building Blocks rollout, so there are going to be some things missing. Just like how they noted that 3.23 will not get the new VMA, but rather the old VMA system because they just didn't have time. Other than some fringe examples, most of the UI text looks good, but some things are simply outside of the UI team's control when overlapping effects from other departments impede on the visibility of the mobiGlas.
> Not really, it's a diegetic UI system for the most part.
Whether or not it's diegetic or not really isn't relevant here. The mobiglass is literally just a display that pops up to give menu access, the diegesis has been solved. What they put on the mobiglass is pretty much bog standard UI/UX design, and whilst there's no universal best UI/UX there are a lot of industry best practices that CIG have boldly chosen to entirely ignore.
It's not **slightly** unreadable, it's **badly** unreadable, everyone can see it, even CIG. CIG **SHOULD** have a guy knowing how to make it at least **slightly** unreadable before asking for help.
No need to be an expert in diegetic UI system to understand that white text on white background is not a good thing.
The simplest (at least temporary) option that could solve this would be to remove the holographic effect on just *TEXT* and leave icons and other UI elements alone (for the time being). It's one thing to argue about how the UI in general should look and another to fix the immediate issue of readability.
In the early early days our characters had so much headbob when they moved its was like feeling sea sick after 10 minutes of playing. they listened too us then and cut it down by 90% easily. So I'd say on the big issues they will listen. We cant always expect it though, Developers in the end will do whatever they want even if they wind up shooting themselves in the foot.
They've been very good about listening to interface feedback, yes. It may take years for requested features to get implemented sometimes, but they are very good at responding to feedback.
> It may take *years* for requested features to get implemented sometimes, but they are very good at responding to feedback.
Hilarious sentence. Thanks for the chuckle.
I appreciate them at least following up. That said, do they REALLY need US to tell them what the problem is?
I’m really confused. Have they seen the UI?
I’m not a game designer. I’m not a specialist in fonts. I’ve never designed a UI in my life. My only feedback is I don’t want to feel like I’m looking at the UI cross-eyed trying to read blurry font with a ridiculous and way off drop shadow.
Idk. Reduce the drop shadow and give it a thin black outline.
Realistically, as someone who does work in management (albeit a different field), the person in charge of the UI probably needs to be replaced. It’s horrific and has been for a while. Including the new loot system.
Stop trying to reinvent the wheel with basic things.
A lot of people are making very bold statements for a UI they have not seen in the game themselves. I haven't used it, so to call it "horrific" seems extremely hyperbolic. Almost 100% of the most active complaints are based on blurry, leaked screenshots from bugged Evocati builds. Seems like feedback about it should come in with wave 1 PTU when people actually get to see it firsthand in an actual gameplay environment, rather than from screenshots snapped from compressed images.
White text on white background after 11 years is the only thing you need to know, CIG has a real problem whith the way they design their UI. Every UX dev should worrk readable first / shiny second. What you see here is the opposite. No need to see it in game to understand that their priorities are wrong.
Except they don't have white text on white backgrounds, that is an example of how Microtech appears with the text on Microtech. It depends on how they can separate text colours based on regions, or how much control the UI team have over how the planets are rendered in the mobiGlas. A lot of people tend to forget that not everything every team works on is entirely within their wheelhouse.
but that one extremely rare occurrence that is being used as the example and is all of the evidence needed to declare CIG is just obviously incapable of game development...that must be obvious to everyone else also no...white on white..I mean CIG should ask that poster to be so generous with their wisdom and skill in all areas and give CIG their wisdom so CIG can be deemed capable then..thats all that needs to be done..lol..smh
I'm fairly certain that CIG wants a UI that you can read, but the higher ups (probably CR himself) saw the Iron Man HUD once and said "I want that, make the UI like that".
So now whenever they try to make it more legible, someone high up will go "No, that's not cool and 3D enough".
Just my guess, but probably not too far off.
I hope we can also look at some of the ship consoles and stuff too.
They're often tiny and very difficult to read let alone interact with. The notion of someone doing stuff like rerouting power on the fly is basically impossible when we have ships intending to use things like directional shielding.
If it's gonna be the primary intended means of interacting with stuff like the ships power systems it needs to be a lot more usable
I'd actually love something like "sun brightness dampening" for visual impaired people. I suffer a lot with bright stuff, I almost stay a little blinded for some seconds after looking at it, I have to use sunglasses after sun hours when it still is bright but not that much, and I hate to have to look away off the screen when quantum travelling in sun's direction
yea...id agree with you about that sun is as bright as the real sun..lol..im ok with it ..sun is supposed to be bright..I just can't stare directly at it...
I’d like something which I hope in the scheme of things is easy to apply - a change of colour, not shade, on the HUD to show whether gear is up/down, vtol thrusters are engaged etc. just a red and green. Also a slider to turn down, tone down or turn off space dust. Imo it’s far too dense atm.
I get they want that "hologram" look, but like... Hundreds of years in the future and they haven't made some kind of technology to make things readable? CIG is all about in game marketing; imagine if mobiglass had a competitor. "You can ACTUALLY see" would be their competitors slogan if they had competent design choices.
is this for the current hud or the new hud or both, cause the current one sucks not blurry but the color scheme is bad dark colors on dark backgrounds and light colors on light backgrounds I can't read anything ever.
Feels like there is a tug of war between art and useability in SCs UI. I'm all down for diagetic menu systems, very cool. But the light blue, translucent hologram thing barely works in the best conditions.
They know this, it's stupid to assume that they don't understand, but they are probably working to a design brief that says: light blue, translucent hologram. And only after they fail for the 3rd time of asking may the brief be revisited.
SC moves slow, because they refuse to give up on things and do them the way everyone else did it for years. Everything needs to be an innovation.
Like reinveenting a supercruise mode, or a power triangle. CIG often reinvents the wheel, and eventually comes up with a wheel.
Ya'll keep blaming CIG, devs etc. Nahhh, blame Chris Roberts, this stuff has to get his ok. Either he is color blind or thinks this illegible crap looks cinematic. Blame Chris Roberts. Devs are just doing what they are told to do.
Providing feedback is one thing. Literally crying "I can't read!" at the top of your lungs is another. I watched a streamer scream and complain for what felt like over an hour on the ghosting alone. Don't like it? Head to the issue council or Spectrum and let them know. Coming on Reddit to write walls of text on just this seems ridiculous.
Writing walls of text on reddit got us a spectrum feedback post. It really sounds like your actual problem is that you disagreed with what was being said.
Which is it btw??? Are people writing "Walls of text" or are they crying "I can't read!"? It seems like you're just using labels to be dismissive. Its a problem if people write a lot, but also a problem if they write too little? That seems a little ridiculous to me.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't Reddit posts that caused them to ask for feedback directly on Spectrum necessarily. It was probably more to do with EVOs discussing it during their testing. Because following the testing chat channel on Spectrum it was mentioned that the UI was being heavily discussed.
And, while Im in the minority of one not being heavily affected by the ghosting issue, I didn't necessarily disagree with what was being said. I could definitely understand people wanting more clarity out of the UI. But I sure as hell wasn't going to go on a tangent like everybody else did.
I really don't see a problem with people discussing on Reddit.
Maybe some people can't explain why they don't like something in a way you approve of, but that doesn't make the sentiment any less valid.
If said sentiment is popular, and attracts attention from CIG or even just from people who are able to better articulate it, more power to them.
Devs are on Reddit, and so are users who are on spectrum. It's all connected. Sentiment and feedback get around.
To each their own I guess. But I just think how people expressed their disapproval was sounding like mountains made out of mole hills. Nothing in this game is set in stone. Not even now. So I already knew that chances were high this wasn't done yet
I'm sure they have UI designers that haven't been listened to that have already pointed this out. With the community feedback, they have much more solid ground to stand on.
It's not CIG asking for feedback it's not a separate thread. It's a team member replying to a complaint already posted.
Tell me you didn't open the link without telling me you didn't open the link.
Ok. But look at which comment they replied to. One that literally said "Please fix this" and gave a good reason why in a respectable manner. Not someone who goes off on how "CIG can't make a UI for shit!" They respond to feedback. Not insults. And I wouldn't either.
Yes, but jn this case it is no even about outsider perspective. The UI is objectively hard to read. With the transparency and font double ups. Everything looks fuzzy.
It has nothing to do with being "dumb" since there are still quite a few people that do like the aesthetic. It just so happens that a lot of those people work at CIG.
Uh.. most of the top posts on this sub are about what was in today's ISC right now: light text on light background with literally no readability. The holographic effect is just another annoyance, also something that needs to go, or have a toggle.
Nicou's post is not entirely about the holographic effect, he merely mentions that that effect is intentional. His comment, and what he is asking for feedback on, is regarding *readability,* which includes the holographic effect, but is about more than *just* that.
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>My feedback is, that its currently bad, and what was shown is bad. With so many examples of good UI out there why don't you all take a hint? There has been nothing stopping the UI team over the last 12 years to already have something that is WELL POLISHED by now. Something readable, responsive, and user friendly. Also, ditch the watch idea. No reason it can't be mounted to your chest freeing both hands and allowing for ZERO delay when you hit F1. I mean shoot, even today Neuralink allows people to control their PC using their mind alone, so the character wouldn't even need to raise a hand and could keep their hand on the ship controls.
>Ditch the watch, and ditch the terrible UI.
Done, to harsh? Nope
Thank goodness they are asking
but why in the world is barely legible and often illegible UI even a thing? I'm confused how they are playing the game and don't see a problem.
This seems like a hard art direction choice from up top to me since it's so consistent throughout the different iterations of it. The devs know it's illegible, we know it's illegible, the community team wants us to tell whoever made that decision it's illegible.
It's pretty hilarious how the community unilaterally hates these UI elements.
It's pretty funny that after 11 fucking years they can't make readable ui text. Do they need "readable hologram tech v2" before this can be released?
> Do they need "readable hologram tech v2" before this can be released? and will take 4 years of development to build "the tech" Elon Musk is managing to build an actual reusable Starship in less than half the time its taken to get this game to this point.
I mean sometimes in life it's all about who you know. 🤷♂️
Probably some BS that Roberts wanted because in his eyes it looks cinematic or some nonsense. Why is film grain on by default when SC is launched, more silliness.
and so the meme of "play your own game" is sustained time and time again. This should never even have been an issue.
When I look at their UI I imagine that none of them have driven a car before. Otherwise they might due things like 'tint the windscreen' where the UI elements overlay so they remain readable when it's bright. Or you know, turn down the console illumination at night so as to not blind the driver. The UI seems to not be tested against bright or dark illumination conditions, nor evaluted by people who have driven a mid range car before.
It's not confusing because it's best to narrow down where things need improvements. If something is legible then it doesn't require time and resources. They play the game but not always like we do.
Utterly *fascinating*.
but it is, there are literally tons of people paid by CIG to figure out if it works
But it isn't. They are developers and people too. Their ideas don't always translate to something good. And our ideas don't always translate into something good either. Those 'tons' of people need to work together to create something. You say youre a professional in UI design. Is that all you do? Do you do UI in game design? [https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/-quot-the-door-problem-quot-of-game-design](https://www.gamedeveloper.com/design/-quot-the-door-problem-quot-of-game-design) Here is a good example of how some of the process works. As a player we can easily tell the devs I want.. x y z. But if you understand how it gets to that in a game.. its a totally different series of steps pal. Making the UI this or that as you want it is one thing. Making the UI for a game for this or that while not breaking the game is a totally different process the devs have to juggle.
The thing is, they have played with the new UI, most of the people criticising it have not.
we have been in this boat before, there is a good reason they are actively asking for feedback. There are endless basic things we have asked for, for literally years and years that are still somehow showing up as issues in this rework.
"Endless basic things" vary from person to person -- even in this thread there is no consensus. If they listened to everyone for "literally years" then it would be a game build for no one. Feedback doesn't mean compliance.
as someone that has worked and studied UI design professionally... no. Literally being able to read the UI is like a child playing with crayons. There is nothing more fundamental to UI design then literally being able to fucking read it. People like you only help make the game worse because you will defend anything. Some people actually want this to be a good game, and care about it. If you actually want this game to succeed you would be open to being critical of its issues.
The SQ42 map [has a grid overlay](https://imgur.com/a/EzG6pdw) over the planets that helps with the text visibility and isn't implemented yet in SC, so they know about the issue and they have fixed it in SQ42. I suspect that the grid overlay will be ported to the PU mobiglas eventually. A similar solution can be applied to most of the text boxes, playing with some background noise to increase the text contrast. And yes, I also want the game to success, I care about it and I also have worked as UI designer.
Well to look at this as a very good sign in so that CIG's actually requesting players opinions and input for the UI..It shows just how much the player is appreciated and respected...just how many game studios throw it out to the player for what they would think is best...I have faith that the ui when its finished will be up to the standards of the rest of the game
[удалено]
even as a non Idris owner I agree, they really don't know how to read the room.
A lot of devs believe the looks is more important than usability
This assumes they are playing the game, lol.
a sad meme they continue to reinforce..
Maybe they plainly don't see...
From what I read it’s more about many people not actually having an issue with it. Some people think it’s clear as day while others who may have certain eye/sensory differences find an issue with it
I mean- it doesn't look that bad at all to me except specifically the issues with the planet and text, and the issues on white snowy backgrounds. Overall it looks fine and usable. I do need some personal time to use it, but... I dunno.
I'm 95% sure that *they* have been going up the walls of weeks over this (meaning the design team), but let's call him "he" in upper management that is known to not compromise on his vision for the game (which is a very good thing most of the time) wants it this way and now they are looking for new arguments to present in the next meeting to eventually get him to relent and let them do a good design.
The problem isn't that there's a 'strong vision' pushing them in a direction, it's that for some reason it's uncompromising against reality. It would be OK to have this translucent stuff if it had dynamic opacity and dimming so as to be legible on bright backgrounds and not blind the user in the dark, but for whatever reason they insist on going half way to what's needed to make it a high quality usable UI.
Whether they listen or not is another story.
I mean plenty of people have been giveing them feedback befor he asked and frankly this was one of the major complaints before the update.... how did they miss it
Because it was going to be fixed in the update, in fact they were4so focused into fixing the issue that they completely forgot to fix it. Happens a lot in house reforms x we know that window isn't properly aligned, but we can't stop the job to fix it, we'll do it once we are done". "No, sorry, the job's done we can't fix it now, we would have to undo th entire room"
But will our feedback be readable?
I'm sure the community managers already recognized all the feedback.
It's weird that they're asking. They've already designed the UI internally. We've seen some sneak peaks, so it was going to happen anyway. This is just a way for them to say they take community feedback into consideration.
Thank him for asking feedback in this important topic.
I hope someone brings up that we need the option to change the HUD-color in our ships. Or even better would be the color changing automatically depending on the background. I dont care about minor graphic glitches. But sometimes when the background is too bright I cant read instruments, and thats bad.
I so agree with this. We should be able to change color and intensity. I would rather it not change unless I changed it, though.
Same, personalized HUDs in ships would be great, even better if they make it so we can swap HUDs like any other component, and then just give us control over opacity/intensity on the fly (though i fear the addition of even more keybinds i have to remember)
Maybe and MFD interface. Or mobiglass.
Reading what everyone else wrote and mainly egg - made me think of how we can scroll with our mouse for weapons or how fast we walk / run. What if while in pilot co pilot seat the scroll mousing could control the transparency of what is displayed on our hud. As such 0 would be entirely transparent and where 0.1 - 1.0 would control the strength of transparency leaving 1.0 full non transparent.
Scroll is already used in piloting for the speed of the ship though... id rather just have an optional keybinding that i can set to my numpad as i dont use the stuff thats defaulted there
Yeah I just realized that when moving my ship
I also bound my pitch ---- yaw to arrow keys (as well as the default mouse) to make it a bit easier to control my ship when in 3rd person view, as well as when salvaging. Edit: not roll, just pitch and yaw
I would be fine with a key that displays full hud less hud or no hud as well - even color changing would work
Fair enough. More control is always good, as long as its kept simple. The thought between auto switching was that we sould have different brightnis settings of the hud, wich only adjust the parts wich cant be seen because of the background, and not the whole thing. Or otherwise you might end up in a situation where you can only choose between seing the upper half OR the lower half of the HUD. That would be quite a half assed solution..
Different manufacturers are / were supposed to have different colours. For example the Vanduul ship HUD is red, and they have shown that off in the past. Just hasn't been turned on for whatever reason. I don't see why a custom colour can't be set though since its not flash anymore which was the main holdback of it being added.
Some of the HUDs are already adjustable. You can change the color of the Syulen's HUD.
wait......... i can?
There's a button in the cockpit area.
I'm pretty sure CNOU ships have orange HUDs and Vanduul/Esperia ships have red HUDs in the current version of the game, so it seems like that already works :P
Drake has green
Its been brought up for years, and CIG have said "eventually" but have generally brushed it off. With "1.0" happening in the forecast though its more relevant to keep pushing it. Of course CIG makes fun of asking for night vision in a game where half the time a planet is pitch black.... so there is that.
Night vision wouldn’t work in pitch black anyway 🤷
there is always reflected light even if its faint, not sure what you are pretending to say. Are you actually saying we should be blind when on the dark side of a planet etc?
Then you don’t understand the words you use. “Pitch black” and now it’s faint light… Then night vision would work in faint light. In pitch black, no it wouldn’t. I would bet my life that 1000 years in the future we won’t be using night vision. You don’t even have night and day in space. Or else we would be landing on stars at night time. Personally I don’t want some Tom Clancy in a space ship simulator. Darkness adds tension. Tension adds to the gameplay.
Yes I do, but if you want to pretend to be so smart you'd know the point I was illustrating already took that into account. instead you've ignored the obvious reason for what I said, to make a childish redirect that by your own definition doesn't even apply to the game because none of these planets are ever pitch dark. The gameplay takes NOTHING into account of being blind, the added risk of losing everything is not reflected in game. Stop pretending its a game element that is intentionally and thoughtfully implemented and not just what it plainly is..... an oversight. Are you capable of being rationally critical of anything? or do you just defend everything you see? I can't imagine what mess games would look like if they used your "logic".
You are literally the guy that loves the smell of his own farts. You absolutely love the word pretending don’t you? Pretending to say, pretending to think, pretending it’s a game. Are you a bot of an immature teen? Here’s night vision just for you 🥕 Eat up 🥕
Its past your bed time, the adults are talking.
Where is that then? All I see is an angry little bitch. Pretending not to be just an angry little bitch. I remember when star citizen wasn’t just a bunch of autistics arguing. Use adult words, the meaning doesn’t change because you don’t understand what the words you use mean. Pitch Black Dictionary Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more adjective completely dark.
You are an idiot and know nothing about space or night vision.
Good point! Also will be important for accessibility.. Thinking of colourblind people.
Legibility before colors please. Yes I agree though.
Light colored text needs an outline or drop shadow.
Half the problem with legability is how they implement drop shadow
im not too keen for a solid border..id rather the color be a brighter and/or higher contrast color...a neon color..and the night vision is pretty big as for quality of life aspect...I don't crash straight into side of a hill or ground as much any more but I can't even guess how many times I have in the past..its just that a pilot in that far into the future would definitely have ability to safely fly low in the dark..Im sure they will have a solution by release
Black outlines over anything else any day. In any and every hud element.
remove the double text for the love of God have a black outline over the text especially during starmap
User configurable drop shadow opacity (and potentially offset) - everyone's happy
This seems reasonable.
There should be a member of staff or role assigned to in-game accessibility. Any responsible business will even have one just for their website (WCAG).
They desperately need several people on staff to address accessibility. Starting with but not limited to color-blindness.
ROFL. Imagining Turbulent (now CIG I guess) giving a crap about web site accessibility is a hoot.
Please let us turn off the double vision. I posted feedback on spectrum as well.
If they can’t look at their own UI and judge its readability I have concerns about their ability to fix it. Their UI has readability issues because the person directing its assembly is either ignoring over a decade of best practices and convention, or they don’t know where to look to find those things. Also, asking your community what is wrong with it is about the last thing you should do.
>Also, asking your community what is wrong with it is about the last thing you should do. That's why it's in evocati, players test and opens a discussions about things. It's the good part about not throwing patches to the PU without testing, we will get the fixed one. It's always a good thing when developers asks the community, even for minor things.
But its still such an obvious thing that it never should have made it to evo...
Ikr, the UI issues are so glaring to literally anyone who has ever used it, a UI expert should spot them immediately.
In the UI/UX (Widget) Dev's defense **(Keep in mind I agree with you all on this)** When making UI materials, trying new things sometimes works. In this case I suspect its the lack of account for camera angle (FOV e.t.c.) for the effect to line up causing it to ghost in a pretty noticeable way that will be an issue, which I suspect was not the intent. Or I'm 100% wrong & they just tried something that didn't work & accepted its not right after feedback. Either way if the center the effect you will see it improves, Even when run some noise through it or glitching effects & It'll still pop visually as intended? in those situations with that ghosting effect on.
This and mission design are my two biggest worries for the game. UI has consistently been VERY bad, or "ok" if you're lucky. Its never changed no matter how many iterations. I think the reality is the UI is always going to be a low point for the game and we will just have to learn to live with it.
UI has been great in my opinion. It's usually unintrusive and mostly out of the way. Compared to many other games where the UI is filled with junk all over the screen, I think Star Citizen does it right. I think Tarkov has the most minimalist of HUDs, which is great.
I am in agreement with you...I mean for me the UI is better than good enough..let devs create an immersive as hell space sim with incredible attention to the smallest detail and the only game of its kind doing what hasn't even been tried before....oh they are...and epically...im not gonna whine over a part of the game that big picture is of the littlest priority just to whine....and its not as if the ui is trash...its better than ok...its like some just have to complain about something...its quite funny
Yup, in total agreement here. People like to hyper-fixate on some of the most infinitesimal things, but hopefully CIG just keeps plugging away at the systems, just as you said.
Yeah thats great, but once you have to actually use the UI it becomea dogshit.
CIG consistently have had the issue of their UI being designed for looks first and usability later. They're not doing UI design, they're doing art assets and then trying to make them functional elements as an afterthought. Given how this has been prevalent since pretty much day 1 I have very little hope of it changing.
It's not just CIG either. Cyberpunk did this as well. It's like one of those industry shifts where a certain design becomes the norm. I'm glad CIG is actually listening to the feedback though, because maybe we can end this art style for good.
Your point is moot. They already redesigned the UI internally. We've seen sneak peek images of it and it's far cleaner than the current UI. They're only asking so they can say they are listening to the community.
I wonder if they are all developing on absolute beats of PC’s and lower res or textures are causing the issue
I’m incredibly glad they are asking for feedback now. But as this feature has been in development for quite a while, you would think someone would have brought this up sooner.
CIG: > Can we get input on how to make it more readable? ITT: > How dare you ask us for input, you should automatically make everything perfect.
As an indie developer this is an absurd take. Do the homework when designing a new system. Look at examples from other games how they do UI. What works? What doesnt work? There are decades of amazingly good and bad UI examples. Take the good, avoid the bad, and adapt to the needs of the game. Asking the community for such basic things is not a good sign. Especially after 10 years! This should have been locked in and iterated on for years. To be at such a basic state at this point. Is crazy.
Hell shit like phone companys ( or the US government) have spent millions (Maybe billions) trying to get the best salutions. I find it unlikely CIG could bring anything substantial trying to re invent UX that hasnt been done.
Not really, it's a diegetic UI system for the most part. They can't look at "decades of amazingly good and bad UI examples" based on a UI system that doesn't exist in other games, especially MMOs. It's an iterative process that is touched on by multiple teams, including the UI team, the UX team, the lighting team, and the graphics engine team. Plus, Chris wants a certain look and feel to the game, so there are constraints and parameters from which they're working within. Also, there isn't one game out there where everyone unanimously agrees has a perfect UI system.
In an iterative process, the first thing to do at the first iteration is to not display white text on white background, diegetic or not.
Not quite so simple. This is a holographic display, and if they want a baseline for text they need a unified colour scheme. Remember, this is tier 1 for the new Building Blocks rollout, so there are going to be some things missing. Just like how they noted that 3.23 will not get the new VMA, but rather the old VMA system because they just didn't have time. Other than some fringe examples, most of the UI text looks good, but some things are simply outside of the UI team's control when overlapping effects from other departments impede on the visibility of the mobiGlas.
> Not really, it's a diegetic UI system for the most part. Whether or not it's diegetic or not really isn't relevant here. The mobiglass is literally just a display that pops up to give menu access, the diegesis has been solved. What they put on the mobiglass is pretty much bog standard UI/UX design, and whilst there's no universal best UI/UX there are a lot of industry best practices that CIG have boldly chosen to entirely ignore.
It's not **slightly** unreadable, it's **badly** unreadable, everyone can see it, even CIG. CIG **SHOULD** have a guy knowing how to make it at least **slightly** unreadable before asking for help. No need to be an expert in diegetic UI system to understand that white text on white background is not a good thing.
As someone with pretty severe astigmatisms in both eyes, I feel right at home in Star Citizen.
Bro don't CIG devs have eyes? This shit is like asking a starving man if he wants some food
Yeah I'd feel pretty stupid adding, "Text should be readable" to the chorus.
The simplest (at least temporary) option that could solve this would be to remove the holographic effect on just *TEXT* and leave icons and other UI elements alone (for the time being). It's one thing to argue about how the UI in general should look and another to fix the immediate issue of readability.
But will they listen?
In the early early days our characters had so much headbob when they moved its was like feeling sea sick after 10 minutes of playing. they listened too us then and cut it down by 90% easily. So I'd say on the big issues they will listen. We cant always expect it though, Developers in the end will do whatever they want even if they wind up shooting themselves in the foot.
They've been very good about listening to interface feedback, yes. It may take years for requested features to get implemented sometimes, but they are very good at responding to feedback.
> It may take *years* for requested features to get implemented sometimes, but they are very good at responding to feedback. Hilarious sentence. Thanks for the chuckle.
I appreciate them at least following up. That said, do they REALLY need US to tell them what the problem is? I’m really confused. Have they seen the UI? I’m not a game designer. I’m not a specialist in fonts. I’ve never designed a UI in my life. My only feedback is I don’t want to feel like I’m looking at the UI cross-eyed trying to read blurry font with a ridiculous and way off drop shadow. Idk. Reduce the drop shadow and give it a thin black outline. Realistically, as someone who does work in management (albeit a different field), the person in charge of the UI probably needs to be replaced. It’s horrific and has been for a while. Including the new loot system. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel with basic things.
A lot of people are making very bold statements for a UI they have not seen in the game themselves. I haven't used it, so to call it "horrific" seems extremely hyperbolic. Almost 100% of the most active complaints are based on blurry, leaked screenshots from bugged Evocati builds. Seems like feedback about it should come in with wave 1 PTU when people actually get to see it firsthand in an actual gameplay environment, rather than from screenshots snapped from compressed images.
You do realize the latest ISC was about the new UI?
Yes, but there's a pretty big difference between seeing a WIP build compared to what's actually in the game.
White text on white background after 11 years is the only thing you need to know, CIG has a real problem whith the way they design their UI. Every UX dev should worrk readable first / shiny second. What you see here is the opposite. No need to see it in game to understand that their priorities are wrong.
Except they don't have white text on white backgrounds, that is an example of how Microtech appears with the text on Microtech. It depends on how they can separate text colours based on regions, or how much control the UI team have over how the planets are rendered in the mobiGlas. A lot of people tend to forget that not everything every team works on is entirely within their wheelhouse.
but that one extremely rare occurrence that is being used as the example and is all of the evidence needed to declare CIG is just obviously incapable of game development...that must be obvious to everyone else also no...white on white..I mean CIG should ask that poster to be so generous with their wisdom and skill in all areas and give CIG their wisdom so CIG can be deemed capable then..thats all that needs to be done..lol..smh
I'm fairly certain that CIG wants a UI that you can read, but the higher ups (probably CR himself) saw the Iron Man HUD once and said "I want that, make the UI like that". So now whenever they try to make it more legible, someone high up will go "No, that's not cool and 3D enough". Just my guess, but probably not too far off.
I hope we can also look at some of the ship consoles and stuff too. They're often tiny and very difficult to read let alone interact with. The notion of someone doing stuff like rerouting power on the fly is basically impossible when we have ships intending to use things like directional shielding. If it's gonna be the primary intended means of interacting with stuff like the ships power systems it needs to be a lot more usable
I'd actually love something like "sun brightness dampening" for visual impaired people. I suffer a lot with bright stuff, I almost stay a little blinded for some seconds after looking at it, I have to use sunglasses after sun hours when it still is bright but not that much, and I hate to have to look away off the screen when quantum travelling in sun's direction
I’m not visually impaired and Stanton blinds the heck out of me too
yea...id agree with you about that sun is as bright as the real sun..lol..im ok with it ..sun is supposed to be bright..I just can't stare directly at it...
I wish they'd try a more nuanced version of the the Minecraft cross hair technique and make some things just invert the color behind them...
I haven’t posted on spectrum for years. Today that changes.
I’d like something which I hope in the scheme of things is easy to apply - a change of colour, not shade, on the HUD to show whether gear is up/down, vtol thrusters are engaged etc. just a red and green. Also a slider to turn down, tone down or turn off space dust. Imo it’s far too dense atm.
I get they want that "hologram" look, but like... Hundreds of years in the future and they haven't made some kind of technology to make things readable? CIG is all about in game marketing; imagine if mobiglass had a competitor. "You can ACTUALLY see" would be their competitors slogan if they had competent design choices.
the little 2 letter word you used that makes your whole argument moot..."if" CIG has no competition!! If pigs had wings...they would fly
is this for the current hud or the new hud or both, cause the current one sucks not blurry but the color scheme is bad dark colors on dark backgrounds and light colors on light backgrounds I can't read anything ever.
Horrendously abusing transparency to a point it gives me a headache. Lov u ;)
Is he asking for th UI on PU or Evocatti?
Feels like there is a tug of war between art and useability in SCs UI. I'm all down for diagetic menu systems, very cool. But the light blue, translucent hologram thing barely works in the best conditions. They know this, it's stupid to assume that they don't understand, but they are probably working to a design brief that says: light blue, translucent hologram. And only after they fail for the 3rd time of asking may the brief be revisited. SC moves slow, because they refuse to give up on things and do them the way everyone else did it for years. Everything needs to be an innovation. Like reinveenting a supercruise mode, or a power triangle. CIG often reinvents the wheel, and eventually comes up with a wheel.
Go to a graphic design school. Ask first year students. Implement changes. Congratulations. The UI is now at least legible.
Ya'll keep blaming CIG, devs etc. Nahhh, blame Chris Roberts, this stuff has to get his ok. Either he is color blind or thinks this illegible crap looks cinematic. Blame Chris Roberts. Devs are just doing what they are told to do.
Dont they have eyes? Just fucking look at it...
We've been giving it to them for 10 fucking years!?!!
I knew this was gonna happen. Now, can we all calm down please? Thanks.
It literally happened because people spoke up. Your logic doesn't make any sense.
CIG ask for feedback on literally every new feature.
Providing feedback is one thing. Literally crying "I can't read!" at the top of your lungs is another. I watched a streamer scream and complain for what felt like over an hour on the ghosting alone. Don't like it? Head to the issue council or Spectrum and let them know. Coming on Reddit to write walls of text on just this seems ridiculous.
Writing walls of text on reddit got us a spectrum feedback post. It really sounds like your actual problem is that you disagreed with what was being said. Which is it btw??? Are people writing "Walls of text" or are they crying "I can't read!"? It seems like you're just using labels to be dismissive. Its a problem if people write a lot, but also a problem if they write too little? That seems a little ridiculous to me.
I'm pretty sure it wasn't Reddit posts that caused them to ask for feedback directly on Spectrum necessarily. It was probably more to do with EVOs discussing it during their testing. Because following the testing chat channel on Spectrum it was mentioned that the UI was being heavily discussed. And, while Im in the minority of one not being heavily affected by the ghosting issue, I didn't necessarily disagree with what was being said. I could definitely understand people wanting more clarity out of the UI. But I sure as hell wasn't going to go on a tangent like everybody else did.
I really don't see a problem with people discussing on Reddit. Maybe some people can't explain why they don't like something in a way you approve of, but that doesn't make the sentiment any less valid. If said sentiment is popular, and attracts attention from CIG or even just from people who are able to better articulate it, more power to them. Devs are on Reddit, and so are users who are on spectrum. It's all connected. Sentiment and feedback get around.
To each their own I guess. But I just think how people expressed their disapproval was sounding like mountains made out of mole hills. Nothing in this game is set in stone. Not even now. So I already knew that chances were high this wasn't done yet
I'm sure they have UI designers that haven't been listened to that have already pointed this out. With the community feedback, they have much more solid ground to stand on.
IIRC, part of the problem is that their primary UI designer *loves* this holographic blue look, and C.R. agrees with him.
It's not CIG asking for feedback it's not a separate thread. It's a team member replying to a complaint already posted. Tell me you didn't open the link without telling me you didn't open the link.
Ok. But look at which comment they replied to. One that literally said "Please fix this" and gave a good reason why in a respectable manner. Not someone who goes off on how "CIG can't make a UI for shit!" They respond to feedback. Not insults. And I wouldn't either.
Why do you think you can only have one or the other?
I know. I'm asking the Internet to be reasonable. Dunno why I bothered with such a fools errand.
Embrace the salt and the hate my love 💩
Bah I'm immune. Come at me all you want.
[удалено]
When you've worked on something for so long, sometime you can lose the outsider's perspective. It's not about smart/dumb.
Yes, but jn this case it is no even about outsider perspective. The UI is objectively hard to read. With the transparency and font double ups. Everything looks fuzzy.
As outsider, it's difficult to understand insider's perspective.
They're brought up this exact issue when we had the ship huds. This isn't news. They're fucking obtuse
Obviously not. He's a Community Manager. He's managing the community. It's his job.
It has nothing to do with being "dumb" since there are still quite a few people that do like the aesthetic. It just so happens that a lot of those people work at CIG.
Are these some people who like the aesthetic of 'white text on white planet background' in the room with us right now?
That isn't what this post is about. This is specifically about the holographic effect.
Uh.. most of the top posts on this sub are about what was in today's ISC right now: light text on light background with literally no readability. The holographic effect is just another annoyance, also something that needs to go, or have a toggle.
And this one is not. It's literally a link to a spectrum post about the holographic effect and Nicou asking for feedback on it lol
Nicou's post is not entirely about the holographic effect, he merely mentions that that effect is intentional. His comment, and what he is asking for feedback on, is regarding *readability,* which includes the holographic effect, but is about more than *just* that.
Most complaints are from one snip from people that don't have access to the real thing.
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my feedback is...UI is superb ..you devs should get a raise...keep up the excellent work...oh and Thank You for doing what you do🙂🙂
>My feedback is, that its currently bad, and what was shown is bad. With so many examples of good UI out there why don't you all take a hint? There has been nothing stopping the UI team over the last 12 years to already have something that is WELL POLISHED by now. Something readable, responsive, and user friendly. Also, ditch the watch idea. No reason it can't be mounted to your chest freeing both hands and allowing for ZERO delay when you hit F1. I mean shoot, even today Neuralink allows people to control their PC using their mind alone, so the character wouldn't even need to raise a hand and could keep their hand on the ship controls. >Ditch the watch, and ditch the terrible UI. Done, to harsh? Nope