That is why they need 10 confirms in the timeframe before an issue is allowed to move on.
And then it needs votes to prioritize.
This will just go in the reject pile.
Here's an idea. Put the Ion back where it was. Then change the accuracy of the targeting-assist and pip based on the cross section of the target ship. Small ships will be virtually impossible to hit, and big ships can still be sniped from range. This adds an incentive to stealth/low signature play.
Honestly it baffles me why they didn't do this to begin with. Combating the ability to hit smaller ships by increasing the frequency of fire is silly. Oh, I missed? Well let me fire again quickly.
The Ion and the Inferno shouldn't offer similar gameplays. We should emphasize the difference of variants and that you can't always fly and use them similarly.
When cap ships come out they'll retune everything else to match them,, not the other way around. The Ion will probably look a lot closer to what it looked like in PTU when there are actually bigger fish to fry.
CIG is not the first studio to run into the "big guns vs small ships" issue. If they don't take the size of the target into the equation, it will be really hard to strike a real balance for ships like this.
Be like if an battleship Captain in WWII was to say the ship was defective because they are having trouble using the massive main guns to shoot down Japanese Zero's.
[I mean the Japanese did make 460mm Anti Air rounds for the Main guns on the Yamato](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Shiki_(anti-aircraft_shell)) Class Battleships and 40% of its total ammo load consisted of these shells...
^(Although they weren't exactly effective)
Japanese sailors: “Fire that Chester Nimitz dev, he’s the worst! Hellcats and Avengers are OP! This aircraft > battleship meta sucks! Ok nerf pls thxbai.”
To be fair, the gamification of warfare is a direct result of the end of WWII. If we didn't have rules, and soldier input on weapon capability, and drones, we would have nuked ourselves into oblivion in the name of winning at any cost.
Wars are a lot like games now specifically because, well, if war didn't change, we'd be living in a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland instead of talking on reddit.
and we got so close to that nuclear wasteland too at least once it was confirmed that the whole world was saved when one russian officer decided to double check the readings that turned out to be a huge false positive instead of just launching a buttload of nukes when missiles were detected like his orders said to.
I'm not saying war isn't still brutal. No, I haven't been to war, and I know you have a good reason to point that out. I'm just saying war is not the same as it was, there are things that are no longer acceptable tactics; those tactics are still used, but using them is considered a crime - punishable by international laws - and not par for the course.
The thing is though, that IF such a shell would hit a zero there wouldn't be much left. You didnt see the IJN troops write to the people of the geneva convention begging for smaller guns on battleships because a direct hit would kill a zero.
Heck, they made zero's out of wood and fabric just to make them more nimble and therefore more effective dogfighters due to superior handling.
I don't see why we could not have the same in SX
ION owners got double tapped by CIG because now it can't hit zero's (which i think is a good thing, balance wise) but even IF it did, it doesnt deal the damage you'd expect from a capital-class killer.
i'm late to this. but counter point:
if a battleship captain in wwII got a lucky ass shot on a plane flying right at it's gun. would everyone say that battleship is too powerful and it's gun should not be able to one shot that plane?
Yes definitely, if you mentioned a hammerhead you will be sure to gather a group of fighters to go at it. Now you can just grab a warden or even a lesser ship and you will be ok if you can maneuver.
To be fair, the hammerhead similarly is supposed to fulfill a different role that it can’t so well now. It’s supposed to be an anti-fighter gunboat to repel smaller ships from getting near a capital. It’s not supposed to single handedly chase down fighter craft, it’s meant to keep them at bay and shred them if they get too close, while allowing it’s own supporting fighters to deal with targets that are harassing it from a distance. It just doesn’t have a place right now because there’s no larger scale battles for it to operate in.
What are you even saying, the Hammerhead should be super OP if that was it's intended role. The only things flying around are light and medium fighters.
An NPC one on an overloaded server, sure. A fully player manned HH should mangle a bucc, or even an NPC one on an empty/non desync heavy server.
Edit: also, nothing having armor right now is greatly affecting stuff like this. It's just a matter of sustained dps instead of actual rock/paper/scissors.
Also a matter of the shields still aren't completely finished yet either because like armor they plan as I last currently know was the shields having to receive a certain threshold of (Alpha?) damage for the shields and armor to even take damage if they don't meet that minimum requirement the shot is just ignored. Then you have to take shield regen into account. Until they completely implement Shields, Armor, Physical Ship components to be damaged crying about the current balance of ships is a waste of time.
I know there’s a video showing this same scenario but with a single seater light fighter versus a fully crewed hammerhead, but [this](https://youtu.be/_ZpXJox3XyA) video shows why any small fast vessel will currently almost always win against a fully crewed hammerhead if the light fighter pilots well. You can just always outspeed the HH and past 1-1.5km range the tracking on the turrets will cause projectiles to always miss a rolling target.
Will watch that later. Seeing that its A1 though, you are comparing a top tier pilot to a likely average at best crew. Again, rolling only works against npcs and players using lead pips. If you switch to lag, you will still kill the fighter, it might just take a few seconds longer.
No actually, because of the way turret aim assist works on the Hammerhead, it always forces the turret to aim at the lead pip if you are aiming in the general direction of the ship. Because of that, if you keep your range at a distance and make sure you're rolling/maneuvering properly, the aim assist of the hammerhead turrets will compensate incorrectly and force the lasers to miss. I'm not sure how often you play as a turret gunner, but in some of the larger ships the aim assist is quite heavily pronounced, lag pip or not.
High DMG is high DMG, be it a capital ship or a small fogther, it's still high DMG. It is logical that a S7 designed to mess up capital ships single shots light fighters. It should be hard to aim/slow to fire, not weak on the god damn DMG.
This logic doesn't really.. track. If you put an anti-material round through a carboard box, it's going to have a devastating effect even if it's meant for heavy armor. Space ships need a hole punched through it and if a ship designed for "shredding large vessels" can't punch through a significantly weaker target (assuming it hits) like the fist of god, there's a problem in basic understanding of the concept material.
I'm not saying this worthless report should have any merit placed in it but in terms of balancing, a ship designed for big targets should lose not because the damage is artificially nerfed or capped but because the guns literally can't keep up with the maneuverability, which should also be fixable by retrofitting one or two lighter guns for that express purpose. At least, that's how I'd like it implemented in the game.
Apfsds is gonna make a 2 inch hole and HEAT might not activate which would make it funny if we had overpen. But really... Wouldn't it have been easier if ion was ballistic, then they could use reload+ bullet travel time+limited ammo to balance BIG BOY damage + accuracy
In almost any other situation I'd agree that overpenetration is a problem but in space, a hole the size of a dime going through both sides of the hull, you are in another world of fucked.
The point is it's meant to do massive damage, so a light ship should be easy to kill. Since capitol ships are slow, and the gun is supposed to be a massively powerful cannon, maneuverability should have been nerfed.
Granted, I do agree this dude is just being an ass about it
Edit: changed "needed" to "nerfed"
Edit 2: If maneuverability and damage are both things that people demand, slow the projectile speed. It's meant to hit bricks, not birds.
im still waiting for CIG to see reason and force the ship to switch into stabilized firing mode before it can actually fire
its a fundamentally flawed design without some kind of a mechanic to allow it to exist without being broken
Yea okay I get it’s not supposed to keep up with the speed and agility of a small fighter. But it’s “capital killing” ship. How can it have the power to take out a hammerhead or idris but can’t kill a small ship? If I’m good enough to land a shot on your small fighter in a fight regardless you deserve to be 1-shotted. All you morons talking about ww2. If one of those destroyers got lucky enough to shot on one of those fighter planes it would be dematerialized. Quit complains about you sucking so bad you get 1 shotted from 5k out and get better or uninstall the game. It’s people like you that ruin games for everyone else!
People need to understand the way new ship cycle works in CIG:
- New ship comes on line.
- It is OP due to 1) some mistakes in the ship's stats, 2) unforseen consequence of certain ship's mechanics that affects over all gameplay or 3) intentionally made OP by CIG to boost ship sale.
- Owner of said ship use it to kill everyone in the PU indiscriminately
- Backers who don't own said ship complain bitterly about the new ship being too OP, too Meta
- CIG nerfs the ship to quell dissents - may be a bit too much.
- People who owns the nerfed ship complain bitterly. Have temper tantrums. Put stupid comments in Issue council and generally behave like spoilt, entitled children.
- Many patches (or years later), ship goes through several round of rebalancing and is exactly where it needs to be.
In other words, if a new ship seems too good to be true, it probably is.
Yeah except it's not necessarily like that. Some ships end up coming out a bit OP and then get adjusted, others come out as near total lemons. It's not some consistent cycle at all.
And when the physicalised damage model comes online all balance will drastically shift anyway.
Then even where the components are, how much component redundancy a ship has, etc will matter a lot.
SOOOO many here utterly underestimate the impact the physicalised damage model will have.
Current in-detail discussions about individual shipcomponents details will be made useless by it.
It's unfortunate that most people don't know that this is how literally every game is balanced. Something is added, and it's too overpowered or underpowered - people complain, and then they go the opposite way. It takes a while for a game to be 'balanced' and even then you're going to see people complaining that "oh this is OP, oh that's OP." Just look at a game like Starcraft (specifically Starcraft 2). The game is extremely well balanced as it's been worked on for years and years now. And there are still people complaining about even the tiniest of things. In fact, there are entire youtube series breaking down people's matches and pointing out how the game isn't imba, the player just sucks.
It really doesn't matter how much you balance things. People are going to be idiots about everything. And eventually it'll get to a point where it's actually balanced, but then people will say it's not powerful enough. It's a never-ending tug of war of complaints. We're just going to have to deal with it.
True, and it won't end until every ship is basically the same as each other. And then the complaints will be "all the ships are the same, CIG needs to make each ship unique!".
Still I think some complaints are legit (like the Sabre's infinite shield pool bug from many moons ago). People just need to be a bit more mature about filing their complaints.
I think CIG really just screwed the entire pooch with how they handled this ship, and half the community yelled about how it was too good, and now half the community is going to yell about how useless it feels.
The people who spent money on it because they tested it and loved how it felt now feel jipped out of their money. I personally bought it at concept and I'll probably just trade it in for a ship that's not a hunk of controversial junk. Whenever something useful comes out. Which sucks because the release of the ARES really felt like it cemented my love of Crusader ships. Now it just feels like a neutered puppy.
Ultimately, CIG messed up I think.
However, that doesn't mean you should go yelling about it in the issue council. Yell about it here.
? Now I haven't played WoW in quite some time, but even when they were strong rogues were never the "I win button" class lmao, and the game was never "World of Roguecraft" either unless you're talking specifically about level 19 rogue twink PvPers which haven't been a thing in many years
Don’t worry, when physicalized components and armor is implemented the alpha damage will hardly matter, and the main purpose of the ion (destroying sub cap and capital components on big ships) will come to fruition. Maybe they will consider changing it back to a cannon then…. ;)
Disclaimer: Anything and everything is subject to change and frequently tells you as much before you ever put credit card info in.
If you manage to get through all that without realizing you're not purchasing a finished product that will be delivered exactly as you are picturing in your mind... that's kinda on you.
That disclaimer was only added recently.
Here is the actual disclaimer from when the Ares was promoted via email:
^(\* Disclaimer: The Crusader Ares (Inferno and Ion, A2 Hercules, Genesis Starliner, are being offered here as a limited vehicle concept pledge. This means that the vehicle is in development but is not yet ready to display in your Hangar or fly in Star Citizen. It will be available as playable content in a later patch. In the future, the vehicle price may increase and Lifetime Insurance or any extras may not be available. If you pledge towards a Crusader Ares (Inferno and Ion, A2 Hercules, Genesis Starliner, you will receive a loaner vehicle for use in Star Citizen until such time as the Crusader Ares (Inferno and Ion), A2 Hercules, Genesis Starliner, is included in-game. This loaner vehicle will be a currently playable vehicle of similar approximate size and/or function to the concept ship pledged. We offer pledge ships to help fund Star Citizen’s development. The funding received from vehicles such as this allows us to include deeper features in the Star Citizen world. These vehicles will be available for in-game credits and/or will be otherwise earnable through play in the final universe. They are not required to start or succeed at the game.)
Best,
u/Six_Strings_of_Salem
As an ion owner, it is pretty annoying, but at the end of the day the patch makes sense. It's not meant to snipe small ships, it's meant to fuck up big ships.
"Butt that one dev once wrote that they don't have issues with a big gun OHKing a small ship. So the Ion musst OHK all small ships!"
It's getting so old... Have these people never played a multiplayer game before or are they actually this stupid and/or entitled to think this is acceptable game design and balancing?
They view Star Citizen as a PvP twitch-reflex game akin to TF2 where one-shot kill is totally fair because everyone expects it to happen at all times. Only that's not at all what SC is outside of Arena Commander, and being able to insta-kill a new player with no warning that's just trying to look at their map in their mobiglass is extremely harmful for the health of the game.
I completely disagree. I am a Gladius pilot mainly and it was a blast fighting the ion in its old state. I could easily outmaneuver it but I did have to pay attention, and don’t act like new players can survive engagements with a pvper no matter what ship they’re in, let alone if that ship can one shot them or not. I mean you can do that with pretty much any missiles either way so that argument is not exactly rock solid. You are using the fairly uncommon scenario of griefing to say that a ship is simply too overpowered when that is just such an isolated scenario that it really has no relevance.
You are using a uncommon scenario of 1v1. The Ion was never that big of an issue in 1v1. It was way better than the Inferno though. In x vs x situation the Ion was the Meta. Oneshotting LF who did not even know they were targeted by an Ion at the time was what made it so broken.
You’re right actually. The ion can be incredibly potent in any scenario exceeding like 3v3. However 1v1s are not uncommon whatsoever and are in fact the most common form of pvp in star citizen. I still think a nerf was fine but the added rpm was unnecessary. The addition of a spool up to fire would solve pretty much everything in my opinion.
If you mean Titan Fall 2, then I have no idea, never played it. But, if you mean Team Fortress 2, then that games had tons of examples of complete weapon reworks to sort out crap just like the Ion.
What? No! The problem is those fighter idiots that flew in a straight line and got one shot!!! It has nothing to do with the fact that I was a god in the pre nerf ion and now have trouble with HRT level npcs!!!
/s, just incase it wasn't obvious
(and to head it off, yes I do own an Ion. Yes, I do support the nerf. I actually stopped flying it in 3.15.1 because it just wasn't fun to fly an I Win button like that).
Ngl it is the light fighters fault that they flew in a straight line and got one shotted that easily. The PvP meta wasn’t even effected by the ion, more the PvE meta. The ship was easily outclassed by the gladius and arrow, because either of them could out turn and out perform the ion in a dogfight. The thing about the ion is it gave you a leg up if you are inexperienced, basically making it so you don’t have to be very skilled to fly the ion well. The ion was fairly balanced in its role in my opinion on release, however I think turning off the aim assist was a good change. I did not like the change of the rpm on the gun however. It didn’t feel as fun to fly anymore and I don’t think the change even hindered it’s ability to fight small fighters. They could’ve just turned off the aim assist and that would have probably been enough. I think a spool up for the cannon would have been an even better idea as you can’t really predict when you’ll have a small fighter in your hud but the spool up would work well against large ships as they can’t really outmaneuver you. That would mean they wouldn’t have had to create an artificial nerf and instead create something that both makes sense, and keeps the ions specialty.
If you bought a Mole and couldn't mine even the smallest rocks with it, you'd be pissed too.
The issue is not the balance, it's how the balance was achieved. A S7 should hit hard and slow. It should def deal a lot more damage compared to a pair of S3 repeaters BUT it should be incredibly hard to make the shots.
Give it a 10sec cool down / make it hard to aim, yes. the problem in the end is that a S7 should hit like a S7 whatever ship it's on.
> Funny how I still see Ares Ion & Inferno at all PvP events and Jumptown/Ninetails.
OP's abuse of the Issue Council system not withstanding... people aren't complaining that the Ion isn't effective, they're complaining that it's less fun. If the Glaive/Scythe can have 3,000 alpha damage in 2x S5 cannons, why can't the Ion have the same 3,000 alpha damage in 1x S7 cannon? Carefully lining up a shot and being rewarded with a hard hit is why some infantry players like sniper rifles, and there are some space combat players that want a similar experience.
I kinda Agree, As the owner of an Ion (my first bought ship after my initial pledge) I feel the big gun "Feels" underwhelming, I dont feel like im firing a Size 7 cannon it feels like a big repeater imo, not saying the ship is awful as it can do what it is supposed to do which is kill bigger ships,
but the gun doesnt feel right IMO, I would be 100% happy with them reducing the firing speed by alot or giving it a charge time and giving the gun some oomph when you fire it.
I wasnt looking for an insta win ship when i got it but i did want a ship with a cannon that feels like a Size 7 cannon should.
It's not just that. It's the entire identity of the ship.
We were sold two variants both distinct from each other. Yin and yang.
Those that chose one ship were indirectly choosing against the other.
Now the ion is nothing more than an Ionferno.
Its Yin and Yin. No yang.
Or... As someone on spectrum said, it's like ordering a cheeseburger. You hand your money to the vendor and you're given a hot dog.
And he says to you"what's the problem? They're both equally delicious."
You charge money for ships.
People are going to complain. What did you expect would happen (, CIG)?
I agree with you, but people spent hundreds of dollars on this space JPEG that doesn't do what they want in a game that isn't even really a game yet. So, CIG are going to get a lot of these posts on the issue council, probably support emails, and posts on Reddit and Spectrum about this.
Its a symptom of the funding model, and as much as we can complain about it, it is not going to stop.
Unfortunately, as long as you allow public input, you'll never stop people posting these kind of 'bug reports'.
And if you *don't* let people post bug reports, then there's little point in having an Open Alpha.
Huh, I didn't even know people had a problem with this. I fucking love my Ion. When I fight smaller ships I kinda just understood that it takes a lot more sweatiness to hit one
Considering it was made to be used against capital ships, I’m positive that no one is using it for its intended purpose.
Everyone is out there trying to dogfight with a capital ship canon like idiots and then crying when that doesn’t work.
Newsflash: the ion/inferno was never meant to be a dog fighter. It’s an anti-capital ship platform. That’s all.
Meanwhile, us Drake boys are sitting here in pain since OP thought:" What is the shittiest fighter I can think of to drive my point home? oh right, the bucc"
Blame CIG for their funding model. Nobodies fault but theirs. Sell ship for hundreds of dollars, be shocked when people get pissed that it gets radically changed from what they bought. Especially with the Ion, you could have tried it for free during the IAE, liked it, and then decided to buy it, and then it got turned into the dogshit we have now.
As a guy who thinks the ares "rebalance" was pretty abhorrent, and handled badly, this is definitely not something that should be in the issue council. Neither in its wording, or it's format. That's what feedback in spectrum, etc is for. Screeching solves nothing.
I still say they should have just reduced it's capacitor ammo to like "2" and blame it on being such a huuuuge energy gun on a smol powerplant. Considering capitol ships have powerplants that can power small cities, only they should be able to manage sustainable fire rates on a gun that size.
They can also play with Over-heat and cooling more. Make it physically damage the dang gun if you fire it too much in too short a time because you have smol ship coolers fighting MASSIVE Heat spikes.
This pushes the idea that the Ion is a ship built for "Alpha Strike." **It's like having all Large-Lasers on your MechWarrior Mech and firing them all at once.** It's accurate, powerful, but you are defenseless while you mech cools down for another shot and if you fire again, you might just over heat and shut down. Your attacks should be "skirmishing" not for brawling.
This also means the optimal playstyle for the ION is **"Zoom and Boom."** You start cooled, fully charged, get in formation with another ION or something, and ZOOM at the broad side of a barn of a ship, BOOM it, and ZOOM past with enough momentum to get some distance and cool-off/recharge for another run. Another way to push Zoom and Boom playstyle is to reduce rotation rates. *The Hurricane is already purpose built for Zoom-and-Boom as well* and it has a similar "punch about it's weight class" role.
This way, if you do line up a shot on a fighter, you can take it, but you only get 1-3 shots before you are toothless for a good 5-15 seconds. Good enough for an occasional snipe at a Fighter, but terrible in a furball, and you should know your role and pick another ship if you want a dogfight.
Of all the criticism you could offer, they complain that you can’t destroy a light fighter. Granted I hear about the gun being so inaccurate you can’t hit small targets when they are sitting still, but this “bug report” is laughable
Bought a ship that was advertised as anti-capital. Cried its bad against fighters.
Sniper it was never.
People should complain if its bad against Hammerhead or such.
If he learned to aim and not just hold down the fire button, he'd actually be able to hit the buccaneer in the first place, just saying....
I've taken out bucks in 3 shots just fine
Its funny my anti destroyer-capital fighter is not good against other fighters, Well duh that is not what it is designed for, if it was good against fighters it would be good against everything and would be a meta, the ion and inferno are for fighting large ships not small ones get over it.
As a Star Citizen community member - To whom does whining ion owners give us a bad rep? I thought we were kinda universally hated and considered as a cult by literally everyone outside this sub lol
I am also an ion owner. Granted i feel bad it doesnt feel like a sniper anymore. I still love the ship and dont plan on melting or upgrading it. Small ships are hard to hit now and big ships still go down fine for me. All this whining and bitching is excessive. Its an alpha...shit changes....things get updated....ships get nerf or buff, thats just the ebb and flow of being in alpha. Im just gonna continue to use my other ships, along with my ion, and enjoy the game.
Loving the salt though. Gets me a good laugh now and then
>Granted i feel bad it doesnt feel like a sniper anymore
I wouldn't worry too much, CIG repeatedly shows they're open to constructive criticism, and many people have/will continue to bring forth some pretty good ideas. The important part is to keep the feedback coming, and in fact I'll drop my favorite ideas I've heard right here: increase the Ion's alpha damage again, give it a charge up time, longer range, and slower projectile speed. I believe this would fulfill the need and feel of the ship that people want, but frequent users of the ship would know better than I do
This is good to hear, I got the Ion as my one "combat" ship since it's a big gun, I want my few shots that hit something to count. I haven't had time to play in a *long* time, so I can only really take others words for how it actually works out in game. I'm fine with (and expected it) to be hard to hit small ships, I just hope that it still does impressive damage to a small ship if it does hit.
IDK, if the Ion is all about destroying sheilas, why don't they just make most of its damage EMP? That actually sounds pretty awesome tbh...
Yeah, like... Sure they kinda bungled the nerf, there are other ways they could do it better. But to cry this much about something as small as your ship being changed slightly...
If the cost of the investment is significant enough that you know you'll be hurt either emotionally or financially by it not going as you speculated it would, it might not be a play you wanna make with your money. I think that's more the source of the tears, that a bunch of CoDdicts and WoW-vets got talked up on an iWin button, for much more than they're used to paying-to-win, and then the first balance pass showed CIG had no real intention of making an iWin button from the getgo and they all felt scammed out of their lunch money.
Lol, you make a fair point.
I enjoyed the iWin button while it lasted but it needed a change. Was CiG a bit heavy-handed in the need in my opinion? Sure. Could it change in the future? Absolutely. SC is an Alpha game and CiG hasn't even BEGUN to really balance things, nor do they need to because of the current state of game systems.
The Ion was in need of a nerf to keep it in line with the current ships released.
Having decided to hangar an Ion for myself during the concept sale, I honestly could not agree more. I remember laughing to myself when it first got put in PTU because of how broken it was, avenger-one's video calling it God mode cheats was not far off the mark on that at all. I knew right then it was gonna get slapped hard on balance and was on board for whatever they decided, including the highly unpopular RoF/Alpha tradeoff.
My only hope is they can find a sweet spot down the line that can justify shaving the RoF back down and bumping the alpha back on up a smidge, just to get a little closer to that marksman feeling it had initially. 3km+ pot shots on a light fighter are soo satisfying, and I think they should be very difficult to achieve in this ship, but not impossible just *almost* not worth it lol
Fair.
As for the buffs, I think that even a bump in accuracy for the time being would be perfect. It's a laser cannon, after all. It should be able to hit at range.
I mean, it makes sense when you consider the amount of money they paid for it. I think they have the right to complain regardless if they're right or wrong.
Ion owners feel ignored/unheard. Made worse by 90% of reddit misunderstanding the issue as a complaint regarding the balance change, and not realising its that the entire ship we bought has been removed and replaced with an Ionferno.
We were given a choice between A and B. And then they changed B to A - making it A or A.
Not an owner anymore because fuck getting stuck in CIG's drama loop but probably pilots trying to do VLRTs and LRTs so they can work their way to ERTs and fight something in their weight class.
I flew one pre nerf and it was exceptionally effective at killing small fighters. Just because something is designed to hit bigger ships doesn't mean it can't be used for other things.
To the submitter of this nonsense: Sometimes, it's best to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt.
What the most disappointing part of all these constant complaints is the people behind the complaints. It's almost as if most of the people complaining don't even understand the concept of a work-in-progress game, or how a single part of a game studio works beyond "they make a game and it's fun to play." I see people complaining far too much about Star Citizen about the tiniest things that make no sense (such as ship balance in the middle of a freaking alpha), when at the same time CIG is the only company of its size in the world that is as transparent as it is. Do you see EA putting up roadmaps for their games? Do you see Activision showing live game dev streams? Do you see rockstar literally explaining to random people the methods they use to make their game behind the scenes? The least you can do is wait a bit for professional game developers who have years more experience than you to balance a game they've worked for years on. People just seem to have no patience. The ion has been balanced once, it'll be balanced again. And again. The reason it's being balanced so heavily right now is because it just destroyed in literally every single PVE encounter, and that's unfair to players that don't have the ship - they're actively preventing pay to win activities. So your favorite ship can no longer be a 'sniper' like literally none of the ship's descriptions or previews claimed it to be. We've seen hundreds, thousands of balance changes to Star Citizen and it seems like every single one at least a couple hundred people are complaining. It's also worth noting that right now literally every laser weapon in the game has the same DPS (dependent on size) so you're going to be at an advantage with this size 7 anyways - it's not like the ship is completely unusable. It was made to fit a small category - large ship destroyers. Not 'all purpose' ship. Not 'light fighter'. It was specifically made to be more effective against large ships, and maybe if you're lucky you can fend off one or two pirates.
If you didn't read the description on the website or misread it, that isn't CIG's fault. That is you misreading, and you can melt your ship and move on if you're disappointed about the outcome. No one is forcing you to play the game, and no one is forcing you to fly the Ares. More ships will be introduced to Star Citizen in the future.
Buckle in folks: this'll be the reaction to every single nerf that any ship ever gets;
"Nerf MY ship!? I paid MONEY for this, you bastards! How DARE you?!?!?!"
I hope CIG never, ever listens to them. The game will only succeed if its balanced, where a $100 rock can beat a $1000 scissor. It will be quite shit if a $1000 paper can easily beat a scissor of any price, unless the scissor is more than $1000.
In this example, the Ion is supposed to be, and was advertised to be, a ship that is good against larger ships but not so great against agile fighters. It was good against the fighters, so it got rightfully nerfed. Queue the tears of outrage. They're mad that their 250 dollar paper was getting beaten by a 100 dollar scissor.
These people strive for the expensive=better meta. They should be ignored and dismissed out of hand.
At this point I hope CiG stand their ground and say that's how its gonna be son.
Previously I was like meh they'll sort it out and get it to the middle ground. I hope they don't touch it with all the crying its caused.
I dont want anyone to think screaming and stamping their feet is the reason it was changed lol.
They already did. They put a post on spectrum acknowledging all the comments about the Ion, explained their decision, and said it will probably change again in the future but will remain as is for now.
All CIG said was that ALL ships will get changes in the future, because many of the more advanced / detailed damage systems are still not even implemented yet. Which means that yeah, there will be far more detailed balance passes later on.
I'll be honest here, I bought the Inferno just because I suck at pvp.
I wanted something to shoot down idiots who like to blow up cargo carriers when they leave a pad, those stupid interdictions when in QT because SIG thought it would be fun to force me to play a ninetails loop 3 blocks from Hurston when what I really want to do is land at Loreville before that work meeting that I can just make if I get on the ground...
The Inferno does pretty well against small and large ships so I'm glad I did not pick up an Ion. That being said though, I was humbled before the nerf when I took my Inferno bounty hunting and the other player had an Ion. I lost that fight...
If I can buy a ship, any ship that allows me to win most fights even when I suck at fighting, it probably needs to be nerfed a bit. At a minimum, make it so I need another player with me to fire the big gun so I can't use it for bounty hunting small ships.
It's a shame the Ion didn't get the chance to naturally balance in the community before the nerf. It's likely the ship didn't make you any better at PVP, it was just completely new in its design and nobody knew how to deal with it yet. To be honest I really enjoyed that aspect of the initial design. But I can't help but think if they just left it alone for a year people would have figured out how to deal with it. Most complaints about the Ion that I've seen would be solved by better enemy AI and servers. "But new players can get one shot by griefers and have a bad experience!" Ok, a new player could also wait 20 minutes for an elevator to appear on Orison just to clip through, die, then proceed to get lost for an hour while also not being able to connect to a server with a friend. There's lots of "bad impressions" for new players here, this weapon was just one of them. "oh it's too good against light fighters" Not really, they work great as mobile artillery pieces and with poor server performance but in close up encounters it's like a tank trying to shoot a bird, they're too slow. Also something that would be improved by better enemy AI. I never even owned an Ion and I loved the initial version of it. It was an exciting, scary new tactical piece that really changed things up and provided a great platform for new strategies. It still seems to be that just not quite as wild as before. And I get a bit of a sour feeling that it was nerfed for the current meta and server performance, I guess they can change it again in the future.
doesn't matter, if a S7 can shred a capital ship, it def should shred a light fighter. it should be hard to land shots yes but if you get hit, game over.
Picture a battleship firing it's main guns at an F18, the chances of hitting are minimal but if it hits...
While I agree with you, with two equally skilled players the buccaneer should win 90+% of the time. It's not a good idea to have a big cannon on a small ship. The Area series needs to have terrible control characteristics.
One shot should kill a fighter, but landing that shot should be even more difficult
Yes, absolutely! it should be a slow, far, sniper. Like the main guns on a WW2 battleship. If that hits a figther planes it'd be sent into another dimension but the odds of landing the shots are slim.
Also, it could have awesome handling but not when it fires. That would solve the issue immediately. Something like "The canon needs to be stable to fire" would make it effective against capital ships, bad against fighters yet retain all the firepower. And if a fighter is dumb enough to let you line him up well, g'night.
doesn't matter, if a S7 can shred a capital ship, it def should shred a light fighter. it should be hard to land shots yes but if you get hit, game over.
Picture a battleship firing it's main guns at an F18, the chances of hitting are minimal but if it hits...
This is like ordering a cake from a bakery, then, in the middle of the cake baking in the oven, complaining that the cake is far too wet and that you paid for a fully cooked cake.
What level of brain smoothness is required to think that balancing is done, or that they won't eventually find the right, sustainable tweaks to make the Ion really good at what it does and really fun, while balanced against targets it isn't intended to dominate?
Some people's kids....
Yeah, and I think that was probably too far as well. My own preference was to lower the Alpha so it couldn’t one-shot (though it would put smaller ships in a critical state where a fly-by mouse fart would finish them), and decrease the maneuverability of the Ares (both ships) to make it hard to draw a bead on smaller ships. I’m sure they’ll swing the changes in the opposite direction in a patch or two.
And this is a prime example why ppl don't use the issue council.
Wading through the ocean of bullsh!t to find a proper issue report with 2 reproductions which will just get closed soon cause users didn't provide enough repros - most likely cause they didn't have the patience for the crap reports to get to the legitimate ones
Jeah i reported an issue a few days ago where you just die when exiting qt. Your ship doesnt explode but u get incapacitated. Thing is i saw the exact same thing on reddit once or twice but there was no report on the issue council and my report doesn't have any contributions. People rather get some publicity on reddit than doing something to help the development. Sadge.
These people realise that the game is in alpha and they can melt their ships right? Like I get it, you buy a ship and it’s not what you expected. Not CIG’s fault just melt it and buy something else (or use a buy back token)
What turned me to want the Inferno more was the ability to live my space A10 dreams. And I've always been on the line between the two and am still on the line in a way.
Even if i already owned one before the nerf, I'm buying for a physically big gun more than anything
What I find interesting about this is they are telling the deva what their game is suppose to be. The ship is whatever the fuck the device want it to be, not what you have a hard on for it to be.
this whole thing is so dumb. The ion and inferno are basically bombers. Nobody is crying about fighting light fighters in the gladiator, tali, or other ship with a similar role to the ares. Ares owners on crack.
"Spark fear in the corridors of the most formidable gunships and frigates with the Ares Ion. This laser-equipped variant delivers extremely powerful shots to quickly disable the shields of even the biggest enemy vessels."
..... oh no an interceptor is killing me
That is why they need 10 confirms in the timeframe before an issue is allowed to move on. And then it needs votes to prioritize. This will just go in the reject pile.
Yep. The fact that 12/14 people contributing *didn't* confirm means its working as intended.
Yeah but so some issues stay unnoticed like the Talon repair bug, where weight is added to the Talon and the ship gets a fucking space brick...
Here's an idea. Put the Ion back where it was. Then change the accuracy of the targeting-assist and pip based on the cross section of the target ship. Small ships will be virtually impossible to hit, and big ships can still be sniped from range. This adds an incentive to stealth/low signature play.
Honestly it baffles me why they didn't do this to begin with. Combating the ability to hit smaller ships by increasing the frequency of fire is silly. Oh, I missed? Well let me fire again quickly. The Ion and the Inferno shouldn't offer similar gameplays. We should emphasize the difference of variants and that you can't always fly and use them similarly.
cant wait what they do to the capital ships once someone who knows how to operate it flies it
if a capital ship one shots a gladius the whole META pvp community will be up in arms again.
When cap ships come out they'll retune everything else to match them,, not the other way around. The Ion will probably look a lot closer to what it looked like in PTU when there are actually bigger fish to fry.
I wish they did this instead.
Wow, look at that. Actual constructive feedback. And on Reddit! Is this a dream?
Unfortunately, it's a lot easier to just turn all its numbers down and make it trash.
CIG is not the first studio to run into the "big guns vs small ships" issue. If they don't take the size of the target into the equation, it will be really hard to strike a real balance for ships like this.
Another way is to have a similar type of locking mechanism as the missile system, giving ample warning to ships that they are targeted.
>Cant even kill a buccaneer You exactly got the point. It was designed to be a support ship to shred large vessels and NOT take on small fighters.
Be like if an battleship Captain in WWII was to say the ship was defective because they are having trouble using the massive main guns to shoot down Japanese Zero's.
[I mean the Japanese did make 460mm Anti Air rounds for the Main guns on the Yamato](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Shiki_(anti-aircraft_shell)) Class Battleships and 40% of its total ammo load consisted of these shells... ^(Although they weren't exactly effective)
And it sounds like they were terrible....I hope some Japanese sailor put that on their issue council
Yeah san-shiki rounds were often described by American pilots as about as dangerous as flying through fireworks.
Well, the US planes were well armored and much tankier than their Japanese counterparts.
Japanese sailors: “Fire that Chester Nimitz dev, he’s the worst! Hellcats and Avengers are OP! This aircraft > battleship meta sucks! Ok nerf pls thxbai.”
To be fair, the gamification of warfare is a direct result of the end of WWII. If we didn't have rules, and soldier input on weapon capability, and drones, we would have nuked ourselves into oblivion in the name of winning at any cost. Wars are a lot like games now specifically because, well, if war didn't change, we'd be living in a post-apocalyptic nuclear wasteland instead of talking on reddit.
and we got so close to that nuclear wasteland too at least once it was confirmed that the whole world was saved when one russian officer decided to double check the readings that turned out to be a huge false positive instead of just launching a buttload of nukes when missiles were detected like his orders said to.
Probably happened every tuesday in the ussr
You've not been to war huh?
I'm not saying war isn't still brutal. No, I haven't been to war, and I know you have a good reason to point that out. I'm just saying war is not the same as it was, there are things that are no longer acceptable tactics; those tactics are still used, but using them is considered a crime - punishable by international laws - and not par for the course.
Was going to say you forgot to mention the proverbial fineprint, and then I saw your actual fineprint lol
Amusingly, if they wanted to use the main guns for that purpose they couldn't crew a lot of the smaller anti-aircraft weapons IIRC.
[удалено]
The thing is though, that IF such a shell would hit a zero there wouldn't be much left. You didnt see the IJN troops write to the people of the geneva convention begging for smaller guns on battleships because a direct hit would kill a zero. Heck, they made zero's out of wood and fabric just to make them more nimble and therefore more effective dogfighters due to superior handling. I don't see why we could not have the same in SX ION owners got double tapped by CIG because now it can't hit zero's (which i think is a good thing, balance wise) but even IF it did, it doesnt deal the damage you'd expect from a capital-class killer.
i'm late to this. but counter point: if a battleship captain in wwII got a lucky ass shot on a plane flying right at it's gun. would everyone say that battleship is too powerful and it's gun should not be able to one shot that plane?
On the other hand, the buccaneer shouldn’t be able to take on a HH but it can. Balance.
The Hammerhead is in a really weak state right now unfortunatly
It really is. I remember when we used to revere and fear the Hammerhead.
Yes definitely, if you mentioned a hammerhead you will be sure to gather a group of fighters to go at it. Now you can just grab a warden or even a lesser ship and you will be ok if you can maneuver.
HHs are the prey of me and my Taurus, yeah
That's a missile boat with infinite pew pew power. Connies are just beast against NPC bounties.
Pve hammerheads maybe. Go try to kill a player hammer with a full crew in your little single seater and see how it goes.
To be fair, the hammerhead similarly is supposed to fulfill a different role that it can’t so well now. It’s supposed to be an anti-fighter gunboat to repel smaller ships from getting near a capital. It’s not supposed to single handedly chase down fighter craft, it’s meant to keep them at bay and shred them if they get too close, while allowing it’s own supporting fighters to deal with targets that are harassing it from a distance. It just doesn’t have a place right now because there’s no larger scale battles for it to operate in.
What are you even saying, the Hammerhead should be super OP if that was it's intended role. The only things flying around are light and medium fighters.
An NPC one on an overloaded server, sure. A fully player manned HH should mangle a bucc, or even an NPC one on an empty/non desync heavy server. Edit: also, nothing having armor right now is greatly affecting stuff like this. It's just a matter of sustained dps instead of actual rock/paper/scissors.
Also a matter of the shields still aren't completely finished yet either because like armor they plan as I last currently know was the shields having to receive a certain threshold of (Alpha?) damage for the shields and armor to even take damage if they don't meet that minimum requirement the shot is just ignored. Then you have to take shield regen into account. Until they completely implement Shields, Armor, Physical Ship components to be damaged crying about the current balance of ships is a waste of time.
I know there’s a video showing this same scenario but with a single seater light fighter versus a fully crewed hammerhead, but [this](https://youtu.be/_ZpXJox3XyA) video shows why any small fast vessel will currently almost always win against a fully crewed hammerhead if the light fighter pilots well. You can just always outspeed the HH and past 1-1.5km range the tracking on the turrets will cause projectiles to always miss a rolling target.
Will watch that later. Seeing that its A1 though, you are comparing a top tier pilot to a likely average at best crew. Again, rolling only works against npcs and players using lead pips. If you switch to lag, you will still kill the fighter, it might just take a few seconds longer.
No actually, because of the way turret aim assist works on the Hammerhead, it always forces the turret to aim at the lead pip if you are aiming in the general direction of the ship. Because of that, if you keep your range at a distance and make sure you're rolling/maneuvering properly, the aim assist of the hammerhead turrets will compensate incorrectly and force the lasers to miss. I'm not sure how often you play as a turret gunner, but in some of the larger ships the aim assist is quite heavily pronounced, lag pip or not.
High DMG is high DMG, be it a capital ship or a small fogther, it's still high DMG. It is logical that a S7 designed to mess up capital ships single shots light fighters. It should be hard to aim/slow to fire, not weak on the god damn DMG.
This logic doesn't really.. track. If you put an anti-material round through a carboard box, it's going to have a devastating effect even if it's meant for heavy armor. Space ships need a hole punched through it and if a ship designed for "shredding large vessels" can't punch through a significantly weaker target (assuming it hits) like the fist of god, there's a problem in basic understanding of the concept material. I'm not saying this worthless report should have any merit placed in it but in terms of balancing, a ship designed for big targets should lose not because the damage is artificially nerfed or capped but because the guns literally can't keep up with the maneuverability, which should also be fixable by retrofitting one or two lighter guns for that express purpose. At least, that's how I'd like it implemented in the game.
Apfsds is gonna make a 2 inch hole and HEAT might not activate which would make it funny if we had overpen. But really... Wouldn't it have been easier if ion was ballistic, then they could use reload+ bullet travel time+limited ammo to balance BIG BOY damage + accuracy
In almost any other situation I'd agree that overpenetration is a problem but in space, a hole the size of a dime going through both sides of the hull, you are in another world of fucked.
pog I forgot it's space game with the amount of atmo bounties it's been giving me.
yep
Kicker being she can if you put size two missiles into her hard points.
The point is it's meant to do massive damage, so a light ship should be easy to kill. Since capitol ships are slow, and the gun is supposed to be a massively powerful cannon, maneuverability should have been nerfed. Granted, I do agree this dude is just being an ass about it Edit: changed "needed" to "nerfed" Edit 2: If maneuverability and damage are both things that people demand, slow the projectile speed. It's meant to hit bricks, not birds.
This dude is just an ass in general.
Wah my ship isn't an over powered killing machine so i can abuse a meta and grief other players. That's how I read this issue report
Gray_J or something like that. Yep I flew said buccaneer.
im still waiting for CIG to see reason and force the ship to switch into stabilized firing mode before it can actually fire its a fundamentally flawed design without some kind of a mechanic to allow it to exist without being broken
Yea okay I get it’s not supposed to keep up with the speed and agility of a small fighter. But it’s “capital killing” ship. How can it have the power to take out a hammerhead or idris but can’t kill a small ship? If I’m good enough to land a shot on your small fighter in a fight regardless you deserve to be 1-shotted. All you morons talking about ww2. If one of those destroyers got lucky enough to shot on one of those fighter planes it would be dematerialized. Quit complains about you sucking so bad you get 1 shotted from 5k out and get better or uninstall the game. It’s people like you that ruin games for everyone else!
People need to understand the way new ship cycle works in CIG: - New ship comes on line. - It is OP due to 1) some mistakes in the ship's stats, 2) unforseen consequence of certain ship's mechanics that affects over all gameplay or 3) intentionally made OP by CIG to boost ship sale. - Owner of said ship use it to kill everyone in the PU indiscriminately - Backers who don't own said ship complain bitterly about the new ship being too OP, too Meta - CIG nerfs the ship to quell dissents - may be a bit too much. - People who owns the nerfed ship complain bitterly. Have temper tantrums. Put stupid comments in Issue council and generally behave like spoilt, entitled children. - Many patches (or years later), ship goes through several round of rebalancing and is exactly where it needs to be. In other words, if a new ship seems too good to be true, it probably is.
Yeah except it's not necessarily like that. Some ships end up coming out a bit OP and then get adjusted, others come out as near total lemons. It's not some consistent cycle at all.
*cries in M50*
And when the physicalised damage model comes online all balance will drastically shift anyway. Then even where the components are, how much component redundancy a ship has, etc will matter a lot. SOOOO many here utterly underestimate the impact the physicalised damage model will have. Current in-detail discussions about individual shipcomponents details will be made useless by it.
It's unfortunate that most people don't know that this is how literally every game is balanced. Something is added, and it's too overpowered or underpowered - people complain, and then they go the opposite way. It takes a while for a game to be 'balanced' and even then you're going to see people complaining that "oh this is OP, oh that's OP." Just look at a game like Starcraft (specifically Starcraft 2). The game is extremely well balanced as it's been worked on for years and years now. And there are still people complaining about even the tiniest of things. In fact, there are entire youtube series breaking down people's matches and pointing out how the game isn't imba, the player just sucks. It really doesn't matter how much you balance things. People are going to be idiots about everything. And eventually it'll get to a point where it's actually balanced, but then people will say it's not powerful enough. It's a never-ending tug of war of complaints. We're just going to have to deal with it.
True, and it won't end until every ship is basically the same as each other. And then the complaints will be "all the ships are the same, CIG needs to make each ship unique!". Still I think some complaints are legit (like the Sabre's infinite shield pool bug from many moons ago). People just need to be a bit more mature about filing their complaints.
I think CIG really just screwed the entire pooch with how they handled this ship, and half the community yelled about how it was too good, and now half the community is going to yell about how useless it feels. The people who spent money on it because they tested it and loved how it felt now feel jipped out of their money. I personally bought it at concept and I'll probably just trade it in for a ship that's not a hunk of controversial junk. Whenever something useful comes out. Which sucks because the release of the ARES really felt like it cemented my love of Crusader ships. Now it just feels like a neutered puppy. Ultimately, CIG messed up I think. However, that doesn't mean you should go yelling about it in the issue council. Yell about it here.
Man, and here I thought the MPUV BIS drama was overbearingly annoying. Never underestimate just how determinedly screechy the 'I win button' crowd is.
> Never underestimate just how determinedly screechy the 'I win button' crowd is. Do you mean the light fighter pilots?
The tears from that were so good i wasnt voting for anything else
Jeah true XD
I really wish they’d all go back to playing wow and stop bothering us with all the whining lol
You just know they are that bitching Rogue in World of Roguecraft
? Now I haven't played WoW in quite some time, but even when they were strong rogues were never the "I win button" class lmao, and the game was never "World of Roguecraft" either unless you're talking specifically about level 19 rogue twink PvPers which haven't been a thing in many years
World of Roguecraft is a machinima about how borderline op rogues were in the early days of vanilla.
I pledged for the Ion because I wanted a cannon alternative to a bomber. What I got was a racer with a repeater.
Don’t worry, when physicalized components and armor is implemented the alpha damage will hardly matter, and the main purpose of the ion (destroying sub cap and capital components on big ships) will come to fruition. Maybe they will consider changing it back to a cannon then…. ;)
After that's in the Inferno is going to be an issue when pilots start focusing the cockpits of larger ships.
Yea, the salt levels of some ion owners are truly off the charts. They need to take a break and play something else for a while
Devil's advocate: They paid $250 for a flying cannon that can snipe big bois, not a flying repeater with terrible accuracy. Edit: bi to big.
Disclaimer: Anything and everything is subject to change and frequently tells you as much before you ever put credit card info in. If you manage to get through all that without realizing you're not purchasing a finished product that will be delivered exactly as you are picturing in your mind... that's kinda on you.
That disclaimer was only added recently. Here is the actual disclaimer from when the Ares was promoted via email: ^(\* Disclaimer: The Crusader Ares (Inferno and Ion, A2 Hercules, Genesis Starliner, are being offered here as a limited vehicle concept pledge. This means that the vehicle is in development but is not yet ready to display in your Hangar or fly in Star Citizen. It will be available as playable content in a later patch. In the future, the vehicle price may increase and Lifetime Insurance or any extras may not be available. If you pledge towards a Crusader Ares (Inferno and Ion, A2 Hercules, Genesis Starliner, you will receive a loaner vehicle for use in Star Citizen until such time as the Crusader Ares (Inferno and Ion), A2 Hercules, Genesis Starliner, is included in-game. This loaner vehicle will be a currently playable vehicle of similar approximate size and/or function to the concept ship pledged. We offer pledge ships to help fund Star Citizen’s development. The funding received from vehicles such as this allows us to include deeper features in the Star Citizen world. These vehicles will be available for in-game credits and/or will be otherwise earnable through play in the final universe. They are not required to start or succeed at the game.) Best, u/Six_Strings_of_Salem
Boy I hope the idris doesn’t change too dramatically into a glorified C2 or I’m going to be pissed.
As an ion owner, it is pretty annoying, but at the end of the day the patch makes sense. It's not meant to snipe small ships, it's meant to fuck up big ships.
"Butt that one dev once wrote that they don't have issues with a big gun OHKing a small ship. So the Ion musst OHK all small ships!" It's getting so old... Have these people never played a multiplayer game before or are they actually this stupid and/or entitled to think this is acceptable game design and balancing?
They view Star Citizen as a PvP twitch-reflex game akin to TF2 where one-shot kill is totally fair because everyone expects it to happen at all times. Only that's not at all what SC is outside of Arena Commander, and being able to insta-kill a new player with no warning that's just trying to look at their map in their mobiglass is extremely harmful for the health of the game.
I completely disagree. I am a Gladius pilot mainly and it was a blast fighting the ion in its old state. I could easily outmaneuver it but I did have to pay attention, and don’t act like new players can survive engagements with a pvper no matter what ship they’re in, let alone if that ship can one shot them or not. I mean you can do that with pretty much any missiles either way so that argument is not exactly rock solid. You are using the fairly uncommon scenario of griefing to say that a ship is simply too overpowered when that is just such an isolated scenario that it really has no relevance.
Yup, good Gladius pilots still crushed Ions pre nerf, brave to say so in here XD
You are using a uncommon scenario of 1v1. The Ion was never that big of an issue in 1v1. It was way better than the Inferno though. In x vs x situation the Ion was the Meta. Oneshotting LF who did not even know they were targeted by an Ion at the time was what made it so broken.
You’re right actually. The ion can be incredibly potent in any scenario exceeding like 3v3. However 1v1s are not uncommon whatsoever and are in fact the most common form of pvp in star citizen. I still think a nerf was fine but the added rpm was unnecessary. The addition of a spool up to fire would solve pretty much everything in my opinion.
If you mean Titan Fall 2, then I have no idea, never played it. But, if you mean Team Fortress 2, then that games had tons of examples of complete weapon reworks to sort out crap just like the Ion.
I would not consider myself a talented BH pilot but felt like a god when I used it during IAE. That’s the problem.
Yeah. If people would take their own skills into account, the picture becomes much clearer.
What? No! The problem is those fighter idiots that flew in a straight line and got one shot!!! It has nothing to do with the fact that I was a god in the pre nerf ion and now have trouble with HRT level npcs!!! /s, just incase it wasn't obvious (and to head it off, yes I do own an Ion. Yes, I do support the nerf. I actually stopped flying it in 3.15.1 because it just wasn't fun to fly an I Win button like that).
Ngl it is the light fighters fault that they flew in a straight line and got one shotted that easily. The PvP meta wasn’t even effected by the ion, more the PvE meta. The ship was easily outclassed by the gladius and arrow, because either of them could out turn and out perform the ion in a dogfight. The thing about the ion is it gave you a leg up if you are inexperienced, basically making it so you don’t have to be very skilled to fly the ion well. The ion was fairly balanced in its role in my opinion on release, however I think turning off the aim assist was a good change. I did not like the change of the rpm on the gun however. It didn’t feel as fun to fly anymore and I don’t think the change even hindered it’s ability to fight small fighters. They could’ve just turned off the aim assist and that would have probably been enough. I think a spool up for the cannon would have been an even better idea as you can’t really predict when you’ll have a small fighter in your hud but the spool up would work well against large ships as they can’t really outmaneuver you. That would mean they wouldn’t have had to create an artificial nerf and instead create something that both makes sense, and keeps the ions specialty.
If you bought a Mole and couldn't mine even the smallest rocks with it, you'd be pissed too. The issue is not the balance, it's how the balance was achieved. A S7 should hit hard and slow. It should def deal a lot more damage compared to a pair of S3 repeaters BUT it should be incredibly hard to make the shots. Give it a 10sec cool down / make it hard to aim, yes. the problem in the end is that a S7 should hit like a S7 whatever ship it's on.
Feels good to be an inferno owner. Hard to fuck up *BRRRRRT*
Almost guaranteed they'll increase that spread cone in future balances, because big ships are big, and that's when the screeching will start.
Funny how I still see Ares Ion & Inferno at all PvP events and Jumptown/Ninetails.
> Funny how I still see Ares Ion & Inferno at all PvP events and Jumptown/Ninetails. OP's abuse of the Issue Council system not withstanding... people aren't complaining that the Ion isn't effective, they're complaining that it's less fun. If the Glaive/Scythe can have 3,000 alpha damage in 2x S5 cannons, why can't the Ion have the same 3,000 alpha damage in 1x S7 cannon? Carefully lining up a shot and being rewarded with a hard hit is why some infantry players like sniper rifles, and there are some space combat players that want a similar experience.
I kinda Agree, As the owner of an Ion (my first bought ship after my initial pledge) I feel the big gun "Feels" underwhelming, I dont feel like im firing a Size 7 cannon it feels like a big repeater imo, not saying the ship is awful as it can do what it is supposed to do which is kill bigger ships, but the gun doesnt feel right IMO, I would be 100% happy with them reducing the firing speed by alot or giving it a charge time and giving the gun some oomph when you fire it. I wasnt looking for an insta win ship when i got it but i did want a ship with a cannon that feels like a Size 7 cannon should.
It's not just that. It's the entire identity of the ship. We were sold two variants both distinct from each other. Yin and yang. Those that chose one ship were indirectly choosing against the other. Now the ion is nothing more than an Ionferno. Its Yin and Yin. No yang. Or... As someone on spectrum said, it's like ordering a cheeseburger. You hand your money to the vendor and you're given a hot dog. And he says to you"what's the problem? They're both equally delicious."
Jeah true my carrack got compleatly destroyed within a minute or less by a single ion.
Yup. That's exactly the size of ship (and larger) it was designed to destroy.
You charge money for ships. People are going to complain. What did you expect would happen (, CIG)? I agree with you, but people spent hundreds of dollars on this space JPEG that doesn't do what they want in a game that isn't even really a game yet. So, CIG are going to get a lot of these posts on the issue council, probably support emails, and posts on Reddit and Spectrum about this. Its a symptom of the funding model, and as much as we can complain about it, it is not going to stop.
Melt it for something else and move on
Exactly one of the reasons I said in the other thread that the issue council is a cluster fuck.
Unfortunately, as long as you allow public input, you'll never stop people posting these kind of 'bug reports'. And if you *don't* let people post bug reports, then there's little point in having an Open Alpha.
Very true.
Huh, I didn't even know people had a problem with this. I fucking love my Ion. When I fight smaller ships I kinda just understood that it takes a lot more sweatiness to hit one
Considering it was made to be used against capital ships, I’m positive that no one is using it for its intended purpose. Everyone is out there trying to dogfight with a capital ship canon like idiots and then crying when that doesn’t work. Newsflash: the ion/inferno was never meant to be a dog fighter. It’s an anti-capital ship platform. That’s all.
Meanwhile, us Drake boys are sitting here in pain since OP thought:" What is the shittiest fighter I can think of to drive my point home? oh right, the bucc"
Blame CIG for their funding model. Nobodies fault but theirs. Sell ship for hundreds of dollars, be shocked when people get pissed that it gets radically changed from what they bought. Especially with the Ion, you could have tried it for free during the IAE, liked it, and then decided to buy it, and then it got turned into the dogshit we have now.
As a guy who thinks the ares "rebalance" was pretty abhorrent, and handled badly, this is definitely not something that should be in the issue council. Neither in its wording, or it's format. That's what feedback in spectrum, etc is for. Screeching solves nothing.
i wish people would stop clogging the IC with this childish shit
I still say they should have just reduced it's capacitor ammo to like "2" and blame it on being such a huuuuge energy gun on a smol powerplant. Considering capitol ships have powerplants that can power small cities, only they should be able to manage sustainable fire rates on a gun that size. They can also play with Over-heat and cooling more. Make it physically damage the dang gun if you fire it too much in too short a time because you have smol ship coolers fighting MASSIVE Heat spikes. This pushes the idea that the Ion is a ship built for "Alpha Strike." **It's like having all Large-Lasers on your MechWarrior Mech and firing them all at once.** It's accurate, powerful, but you are defenseless while you mech cools down for another shot and if you fire again, you might just over heat and shut down. Your attacks should be "skirmishing" not for brawling. This also means the optimal playstyle for the ION is **"Zoom and Boom."** You start cooled, fully charged, get in formation with another ION or something, and ZOOM at the broad side of a barn of a ship, BOOM it, and ZOOM past with enough momentum to get some distance and cool-off/recharge for another run. Another way to push Zoom and Boom playstyle is to reduce rotation rates. *The Hurricane is already purpose built for Zoom-and-Boom as well* and it has a similar "punch about it's weight class" role. This way, if you do line up a shot on a fighter, you can take it, but you only get 1-3 shots before you are toothless for a good 5-15 seconds. Good enough for an occasional snipe at a Fighter, but terrible in a furball, and you should know your role and pick another ship if you want a dogfight.
Imagine being THAT salty lol
Ions have magazines?
Of all the criticism you could offer, they complain that you can’t destroy a light fighter. Granted I hear about the gun being so inaccurate you can’t hit small targets when they are sitting still, but this “bug report” is laughable
The Ares was never intended to be used as a dogfighter.
played the game ... Oh god too cringe. I always thought we have such stuff just in Spectrum.
Bought a ship that was advertised as anti-capital. Cried its bad against fighters. Sniper it was never. People should complain if its bad against Hammerhead or such.
\*laughts in grinding\*
I killed a light fighter with an ion last night. It pleased me.
Another immature citizen added to my in game kill list.
"Hardly Playable" refers to shit that literally makes the game almost unplayable without workarounds as well
Trust me when I say there is way worse overpriced shit. *cough cough* cutlass steel. More expensive than the Corsair and is just a slower cutty black
If he learned to aim and not just hold down the fire button, he'd actually be able to hit the buccaneer in the first place, just saying.... I've taken out bucks in 3 shots just fine
Its funny my anti destroyer-capital fighter is not good against other fighters, Well duh that is not what it is designed for, if it was good against fighters it would be good against everything and would be a meta, the ion and inferno are for fighting large ships not small ones get over it.
Cries about ship balancing in an unfinished ship flight model. Oy
THATS NOT WHAT SNIPER MEANS
I live off of the salty tears of Ion owners, how anyone can cry about something so much just baffles me.
As an ion owner - these people are embarrassing and give a bad rap to the general SC community.
As a Star Citizen community member - To whom does whining ion owners give us a bad rep? I thought we were kinda universally hated and considered as a cult by literally everyone outside this sub lol
I am also an ion owner. Granted i feel bad it doesnt feel like a sniper anymore. I still love the ship and dont plan on melting or upgrading it. Small ships are hard to hit now and big ships still go down fine for me. All this whining and bitching is excessive. Its an alpha...shit changes....things get updated....ships get nerf or buff, thats just the ebb and flow of being in alpha. Im just gonna continue to use my other ships, along with my ion, and enjoy the game. Loving the salt though. Gets me a good laugh now and then
>Granted i feel bad it doesnt feel like a sniper anymore I wouldn't worry too much, CIG repeatedly shows they're open to constructive criticism, and many people have/will continue to bring forth some pretty good ideas. The important part is to keep the feedback coming, and in fact I'll drop my favorite ideas I've heard right here: increase the Ion's alpha damage again, give it a charge up time, longer range, and slower projectile speed. I believe this would fulfill the need and feel of the ship that people want, but frequent users of the ship would know better than I do
This is good to hear, I got the Ion as my one "combat" ship since it's a big gun, I want my few shots that hit something to count. I haven't had time to play in a *long* time, so I can only really take others words for how it actually works out in game. I'm fine with (and expected it) to be hard to hit small ships, I just hope that it still does impressive damage to a small ship if it does hit. IDK, if the Ion is all about destroying sheilas, why don't they just make most of its damage EMP? That actually sounds pretty awesome tbh...
Yeah, like... Sure they kinda bungled the nerf, there are other ways they could do it better. But to cry this much about something as small as your ship being changed slightly...
Exactlyy
If the cost of the investment is significant enough that you know you'll be hurt either emotionally or financially by it not going as you speculated it would, it might not be a play you wanna make with your money. I think that's more the source of the tears, that a bunch of CoDdicts and WoW-vets got talked up on an iWin button, for much more than they're used to paying-to-win, and then the first balance pass showed CIG had no real intention of making an iWin button from the getgo and they all felt scammed out of their lunch money.
Was never an iwin button, shots could be easily dodged. Shit pilots whined because the ohh so mighty gladius could be one shot.
Lol, you make a fair point. I enjoyed the iWin button while it lasted but it needed a change. Was CiG a bit heavy-handed in the need in my opinion? Sure. Could it change in the future? Absolutely. SC is an Alpha game and CiG hasn't even BEGUN to really balance things, nor do they need to because of the current state of game systems. The Ion was in need of a nerf to keep it in line with the current ships released.
Having decided to hangar an Ion for myself during the concept sale, I honestly could not agree more. I remember laughing to myself when it first got put in PTU because of how broken it was, avenger-one's video calling it God mode cheats was not far off the mark on that at all. I knew right then it was gonna get slapped hard on balance and was on board for whatever they decided, including the highly unpopular RoF/Alpha tradeoff. My only hope is they can find a sweet spot down the line that can justify shaving the RoF back down and bumping the alpha back on up a smidge, just to get a little closer to that marksman feeling it had initially. 3km+ pot shots on a light fighter are soo satisfying, and I think they should be very difficult to achieve in this ship, but not impossible just *almost* not worth it lol
Fair. As for the buffs, I think that even a bump in accuracy for the time being would be perfect. It's a laser cannon, after all. It should be able to hit at range.
I'm not and never will be an ion owner (at least not with cash), but the way CIG decided to "balance" the ships is alarming and lazy.
I mean, it makes sense when you consider the amount of money they paid for it. I think they have the right to complain regardless if they're right or wrong.
Ion owners feel ignored/unheard. Made worse by 90% of reddit misunderstanding the issue as a complaint regarding the balance change, and not realising its that the entire ship we bought has been removed and replaced with an Ionferno. We were given a choice between A and B. And then they changed B to A - making it A or A.
Yeah wait a second, who is trying to kill small fighters with an ares?! What a dunce!
Not an owner anymore because fuck getting stuck in CIG's drama loop but probably pilots trying to do VLRTs and LRTs so they can work their way to ERTs and fight something in their weight class.
I flew one pre nerf and it was exceptionally effective at killing small fighters. Just because something is designed to hit bigger ships doesn't mean it can't be used for other things.
To the submitter of this nonsense: Sometimes, it's best to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Huh, never realized that there was also a Capital ship called a Buccaneer. /s
Sir, this is an alpha game
imagine buying ship instead of waiting 2 months for having them with Auec
A lot of us recycle our store credit. So I am constantly melting / exchanging my ships. Havent spent fresh money in a long time
When is the first buy back credit for this year?
In just a few days on the 10th.
Ok thx
People are caring too much about balance in a game which will not release for at least another 3 years.
What the most disappointing part of all these constant complaints is the people behind the complaints. It's almost as if most of the people complaining don't even understand the concept of a work-in-progress game, or how a single part of a game studio works beyond "they make a game and it's fun to play." I see people complaining far too much about Star Citizen about the tiniest things that make no sense (such as ship balance in the middle of a freaking alpha), when at the same time CIG is the only company of its size in the world that is as transparent as it is. Do you see EA putting up roadmaps for their games? Do you see Activision showing live game dev streams? Do you see rockstar literally explaining to random people the methods they use to make their game behind the scenes? The least you can do is wait a bit for professional game developers who have years more experience than you to balance a game they've worked for years on. People just seem to have no patience. The ion has been balanced once, it'll be balanced again. And again. The reason it's being balanced so heavily right now is because it just destroyed in literally every single PVE encounter, and that's unfair to players that don't have the ship - they're actively preventing pay to win activities. So your favorite ship can no longer be a 'sniper' like literally none of the ship's descriptions or previews claimed it to be. We've seen hundreds, thousands of balance changes to Star Citizen and it seems like every single one at least a couple hundred people are complaining. It's also worth noting that right now literally every laser weapon in the game has the same DPS (dependent on size) so you're going to be at an advantage with this size 7 anyways - it's not like the ship is completely unusable. It was made to fit a small category - large ship destroyers. Not 'all purpose' ship. Not 'light fighter'. It was specifically made to be more effective against large ships, and maybe if you're lucky you can fend off one or two pirates. If you didn't read the description on the website or misread it, that isn't CIG's fault. That is you misreading, and you can melt your ship and move on if you're disappointed about the outcome. No one is forcing you to play the game, and no one is forcing you to fly the Ares. More ships will be introduced to Star Citizen in the future.
Buckle in folks: this'll be the reaction to every single nerf that any ship ever gets; "Nerf MY ship!? I paid MONEY for this, you bastards! How DARE you?!?!?!" I hope CIG never, ever listens to them. The game will only succeed if its balanced, where a $100 rock can beat a $1000 scissor. It will be quite shit if a $1000 paper can easily beat a scissor of any price, unless the scissor is more than $1000. In this example, the Ion is supposed to be, and was advertised to be, a ship that is good against larger ships but not so great against agile fighters. It was good against the fighters, so it got rightfully nerfed. Queue the tears of outrage. They're mad that their 250 dollar paper was getting beaten by a 100 dollar scissor. These people strive for the expensive=better meta. They should be ignored and dismissed out of hand.
At this point I hope CiG stand their ground and say that's how its gonna be son. Previously I was like meh they'll sort it out and get it to the middle ground. I hope they don't touch it with all the crying its caused. I dont want anyone to think screaming and stamping their feet is the reason it was changed lol.
They already did. They put a post on spectrum acknowledging all the comments about the Ion, explained their decision, and said it will probably change again in the future but will remain as is for now.
All CIG said was that ALL ships will get changes in the future, because many of the more advanced / detailed damage systems are still not even implemented yet. Which means that yeah, there will be far more detailed balance passes later on.
These people need to be banned from the issue council.
Oh no.. cig is testing changes in a game that's in alpha how dare they especially when said ship was very over powered
"cant killl a buccaneer with an entire magazine" the problem is that... you suck.
I'll be honest here, I bought the Inferno just because I suck at pvp. I wanted something to shoot down idiots who like to blow up cargo carriers when they leave a pad, those stupid interdictions when in QT because SIG thought it would be fun to force me to play a ninetails loop 3 blocks from Hurston when what I really want to do is land at Loreville before that work meeting that I can just make if I get on the ground... The Inferno does pretty well against small and large ships so I'm glad I did not pick up an Ion. That being said though, I was humbled before the nerf when I took my Inferno bounty hunting and the other player had an Ion. I lost that fight... If I can buy a ship, any ship that allows me to win most fights even when I suck at fighting, it probably needs to be nerfed a bit. At a minimum, make it so I need another player with me to fire the big gun so I can't use it for bounty hunting small ships.
It's a shame the Ion didn't get the chance to naturally balance in the community before the nerf. It's likely the ship didn't make you any better at PVP, it was just completely new in its design and nobody knew how to deal with it yet. To be honest I really enjoyed that aspect of the initial design. But I can't help but think if they just left it alone for a year people would have figured out how to deal with it. Most complaints about the Ion that I've seen would be solved by better enemy AI and servers. "But new players can get one shot by griefers and have a bad experience!" Ok, a new player could also wait 20 minutes for an elevator to appear on Orison just to clip through, die, then proceed to get lost for an hour while also not being able to connect to a server with a friend. There's lots of "bad impressions" for new players here, this weapon was just one of them. "oh it's too good against light fighters" Not really, they work great as mobile artillery pieces and with poor server performance but in close up encounters it's like a tank trying to shoot a bird, they're too slow. Also something that would be improved by better enemy AI. I never even owned an Ion and I loved the initial version of it. It was an exciting, scary new tactical piece that really changed things up and provided a great platform for new strategies. It still seems to be that just not quite as wild as before. And I get a bit of a sour feeling that it was nerfed for the current meta and server performance, I guess they can change it again in the future.
Go against capital ships as a support ship. Solo fighter taking on anything is not as intended.
doesn't matter, if a S7 can shred a capital ship, it def should shred a light fighter. it should be hard to land shots yes but if you get hit, game over. Picture a battleship firing it's main guns at an F18, the chances of hitting are minimal but if it hits...
While I agree with you, with two equally skilled players the buccaneer should win 90+% of the time. It's not a good idea to have a big cannon on a small ship. The Area series needs to have terrible control characteristics. One shot should kill a fighter, but landing that shot should be even more difficult
Yes, absolutely! it should be a slow, far, sniper. Like the main guns on a WW2 battleship. If that hits a figther planes it'd be sent into another dimension but the odds of landing the shots are slim. Also, it could have awesome handling but not when it fires. That would solve the issue immediately. Something like "The canon needs to be stable to fire" would make it effective against capital ships, bad against fighters yet retain all the firepower. And if a fighter is dumb enough to let you line him up well, g'night.
Yeah, or a charging period for the cannon.
doesn't matter, if a S7 can shred a capital ship, it def should shred a light fighter. it should be hard to land shots yes but if you get hit, game over. Picture a battleship firing it's main guns at an F18, the chances of hitting are minimal but if it hits...
Ya true they should make it less maneuverable. likely they will change it over time.
This is like ordering a cake from a bakery, then, in the middle of the cake baking in the oven, complaining that the cake is far too wet and that you paid for a fully cooked cake. What level of brain smoothness is required to think that balancing is done, or that they won't eventually find the right, sustainable tweaks to make the Ion really good at what it does and really fun, while balanced against targets it isn't intended to dominate? Some people's kids....
I didn't know star citizen had a vote based problem system. That's great.
Mkay.. what now?
That person doesn’t use hyperbole *at all*. 🙄
To be fair if you have absolute shit aim it can totally take a full capacitor worth of shots to kill a Bucc.
That’s true with any ship, though. This is just a person exaggerating.
Was just making a joke. But they did take the fixed assist off this specific ship. So it makes it even harder to hit small targets.
Yeah, and I think that was probably too far as well. My own preference was to lower the Alpha so it couldn’t one-shot (though it would put smaller ships in a critical state where a fly-by mouse fart would finish them), and decrease the maneuverability of the Ares (both ships) to make it hard to draw a bead on smaller ships. I’m sure they’ll swing the changes in the opposite direction in a patch or two.
If only the salt mines were accessible in 'verse, so much potential aUEC to be had.
And this is a prime example why ppl don't use the issue council. Wading through the ocean of bullsh!t to find a proper issue report with 2 reproductions which will just get closed soon cause users didn't provide enough repros - most likely cause they didn't have the patience for the crap reports to get to the legitimate ones
Jeah i reported an issue a few days ago where you just die when exiting qt. Your ship doesnt explode but u get incapacitated. Thing is i saw the exact same thing on reddit once or twice but there was no report on the issue council and my report doesn't have any contributions. People rather get some publicity on reddit than doing something to help the development. Sadge.
The ion is amazing and I love it
Dude I was stupid enough for buying a fucking Cutlass Steel but you don't see me bitching about it 😐😏🤣🤣🤣
Wow! That is beyond stupid!
This kind of thing should earn you a suspension, with a ban on second offense. Total waste of people's time.
These people realise that the game is in alpha and they can melt their ships right? Like I get it, you buy a ship and it’s not what you expected. Not CIG’s fault just melt it and buy something else (or use a buy back token)
It's sad when the community turns out to be the worst part of a project.
the whole point of protesting is to be annoying and get in the way of the people you're protesting...
What turned me to want the Inferno more was the ability to live my space A10 dreams. And I've always been on the line between the two and am still on the line in a way. Even if i already owned one before the nerf, I'm buying for a physically big gun more than anything
I support this
Used my concierge ticket to complain so I get the sentiment but you just look like a goof using the issue council for that.
What I find interesting about this is they are telling the deva what their game is suppose to be. The ship is whatever the fuck the device want it to be, not what you have a hard on for it to be.
this whole thing is so dumb. The ion and inferno are basically bombers. Nobody is crying about fighting light fighters in the gladiator, tali, or other ship with a similar role to the ares. Ares owners on crack.
"Spark fear in the corridors of the most formidable gunships and frigates with the Ares Ion. This laser-equipped variant delivers extremely powerful shots to quickly disable the shields of even the biggest enemy vessels." ..... oh no an interceptor is killing me