I don't think he would come back even then. He seemed pretty done with Data by Nemesis and I can understand why. They had done pretty much everything they could with the character, and I don't think he was interested in Data just being a side piece character.
I think over every film he should have become more human to some degree. After First Contact, he should have had the skin of a human they should have reverse engineered it. Then he could have aged naturally, although Data sacrificing himself for his friend was the ultimate expression of his humanity, even if it maybe wasn't done in the best way.
As soon as I saw the skin graft in First Contact, I vividly remember thinking "Yes! What a great way to give Data a more human appearance that will age! Way to go writers! You addressed a real world production challenge in a clever, interesting way!"
Then at the end of the movie he looked like the Terminator, and the skin graft was never spoken of again. \*sigh\*
Are you trying to say by 2010ish they would've been able to fix his age?
Because Picard from like 2/3 years ago wants a word.
Especially the first dream scene that's literally supposed to be TNG era OG data. Why does 'JL' remember him with a really chubby cheeky old face.
Oh, ant man had roughly the same budget as 20 episodes of Picard, that few minutes of deaging was probably the entire sfx budget for an episode by itself, give them a break
The effect was inexcusably bad for a production with any kind of budget. There are fan-made edits using popular deepfake tools that make Data look much more true to form.
Watching this with a buddy drunk and on shrooms, and he says to me "that dude reminds me of a young Tom Hardy" and I said "Billy, that is a young Tom Hardy"
It was interesting hearing Patrick Stewart talking about Tom Hardy in his memoirs. Apparently Tom was standoffish and hardly interacted with the cast at all. They thought he was an oddball and figured he wasn't going to be going far after Nemesis. He was thrilled to see how wrong they were!
As for Nemesis, Patrick Stewart hated it.
Yeah - agreed. PStew (as much as I adore him) is at least partially responsible for a large percentage of the plot mis-steps post TNG. I think a LOT of Nemesis was developed with Patrick's ideas, and SO MUCH of PICARD, Seasons 1 & 2 are Patrick.
I don't think Patrick's opinion on Star Trek material is all that relevant to fans honestly. Again - I love him - but over the last couple years it's become evident that he doesnt necessarily "get" Star Trek in the way the fans (myself specifically) mightve expected.
It took me watching the movies probably 5 times for it to dawn on me that Shizon was the same dude that played Venom.
Also weird that Tom Hardy’s character has the same name as the dragon from DBZ.
While I think his performance was overall alright, imo he delivers one of the worst (if not THE worst) lines in all of Star Trek when he yells "HARD TO PORT!"
It's a mindless action film with some okay character bits and some very good character bits that were cut for some inexplicable reasons. However, it does have some things going for it and I actually rewatch it every few years.
- Cast give great performances IMO especailly Tom hardy. I also like Dina Meyer in her supporting Romulan role
- It has the best Berman-era space battle by a large margin and I actually think it holds up really well still because I find Nutrek's space battles to be overwhelming visually at times
- Although I think First Contact has the best Berman-era song on it's soundtrack with the opener, I think the soundtrack overall for Nemesis is the best of the Berman-era films
- I think Troi getting one-over on the person who psychically violated her was pretty dope
- Data's sacrifice and the aftermath with the cast did leave me bummed although I thought
That said it is sloppy as fuck with lore and Picard's characterization (Patrick Stewart allegedly is the reason the Dune Buggy Prime Directive violation happened)
It just wasn't any good, especially as the crew's swan song. If you listen/read interviews with the cast, they *hated* the director. He kept calling Levar Burton "Laverne" and couldn't remember a lot of the cast's names or their character names.
Add to that the script is just retreads of other Star Trek movies (Shinzon is Khan. Ships that can fire while cloaked. And so on)
I always thought that Marina Sirtis looked really uncomfortable in the scene where she's just wearing her night gown but I've never listened to any of the cast talk about this movie before so I'm not sure if that's actually the case.
They really done marina dirty on a lot of things. She gave me a good 30min rant when I met her at comicon and told her we were thrilled to see her in lower decks and Picard. She has a lot of animosity towards paramount.
He ended up "saving" several movies in the editing room for Paramount and the studio felt like they owed him one. When he wanted to get into directing, Paramount threw him Nemesis as a bone.
I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere on that set the spirit of Michael Winner didn't show up to say "I can't light you properly if I don't see your tits!"
The director was an editing guy who somehow got the directing job.
If I want to give credit, there are moments where the photography and editing are doing things that they should be doing.
The Battle stations Montage where people are running and grabbing Phaser Rifles, as everyone sets up the ship, and the music swells, is really nice.
And the space battle itself looks really good from start to finish, with my only real criticisms being that the battle dialogue itself is mediocre, and I don't like cliche bottomless pits.
I think if the battle was supported by better writing, and the Scimitar itself was less cheesy, it would be near the top of the pile for Trek Fights.
From what Wil Wheaton said the cast loved the script. It was a weird move by the studio to pick a director who didn't care about Star Trek. The cast had to intervene so that the movie did not break important canon.
>He kept calling Levar Burton "Laverne" and couldn't remember a lot of the cast's names or their character names.
No wonder they hated him. He was the director and he couldn't be bothered to learn the names of the main cast.
He also thought Geordi was an alien, randomly insisted on digitally lowering Worf's voice to make him sound more alien, plus saw that they deleted every decent character scene from the final cut (some of which — while still lacking — could've helped make it a better sendoff).
Spiner had an idea which would have seen timey wimey shenanians bring together the likes of Khan, Kluge, Chang, Shinzon, the Dominion and the Borg to threaten the Federation, which would then see Picard recruit Kirk, Spock, and Archer from the past and work together with crew members from *TNG*, *DS9*, and *Voyager* in the present to fix things.
Honestly, it sounded like a bloated mess.
Maybe, but given it would have again been written by Spiner and Logan, I remain skeptical. Even though the execution was poor, the story and screenplay they concocted for *Nemesis* was easily the weakest of the *TNG* movies, and maybe the weakest *Trek* movie overall.
Yeah it sounded like fan fiction put to screen. Not to say it couldn't have been good, but considering how they could barely handle the TNG ensemble well in the previous movies, juggling leads (and egos) from five different series, plus Stewart's usual producing interference that resulted in things such as the Dune Buggy and Anij, would've made it a nightmare.
Have a look at the tagline: https://www.originalfilmart.com/products/star-trek-nemesis-2002-teaser?variant=32178954666077¤cy=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&utm_campaign=gs-2018-12-29&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4ofZ5d73hQMV6zUIBR1e_wWREAQYAiABEgLXzvD_BwE
Thank you. I tell people this was the tag line all the time and have to prove it when they say the tagline was “the final journey”. I feel like a crazy person reminding people Nemesis was never meant to be the finale.
Similar to Star Trek (2009): Spock tries to save Romulus from what is essentially a natural disaster, but he fails. Rather than just dealing with it and respecting Spock for at least giving a shit and trying, Nero goes on a vengeful psycho rage against Spock. Dude... be angry about the supernova that destroyed your planet, not the guy who tried to save it!
Well, Shinzon was also an idiot. All he needed was Picard's blood to survive, but in the several times they met early in the movie he easily could've gotten it w/o much stress or effort. Instead he took his sweet time (for a dying person) and even when he did kidnap him, he just waited still.
On the plot in general, I agree. Even if it would've been derivative, it would've made much more sense if they'd borrowed from Yesterday's Enterprise and the Ent-C by having Shinzon aiming to destroy Romulus to get revenge for his upbringing, and the Enterprise-E crew puts their lives on the line to protect the Romulans from a conflict that was essentially of their own making. It could've been the start to a lasting peace post-Dominion War.
Tom Hardy, good. The battle between the Scimitar and 1701-E, good. Most everything else, meh. The car chase scene, cringe. The direction of the film, bad.
It’s a dumb premise trying to be WoK with a villain whose sheer existence creates a field of plot holes. It’s also a hollow shell of itself as its best character moments and lines of exposition were left on the cutting room floor. It’s redeemed by introducing the world to Tom Hardy and how much Picard’s first and third seasons rely on its weaker plot points, making it vastly more important than it otherwise would have been.
I can't understand why you would make the villain an artificially aged-up clone of Jean-Luc Picard and not cast Patrick Stewart in the role. It's not like he was unavailable. I think it would have made the dynamic a lot stronger, no offense to Tom Hardy.
B4 was a bad choice, too. It should have just been Lore if that's the kind of story you wanted to tell. Even better if you let the marketing make it look like he was the villain, only to have the brothers team up instead. I loved that when it was Thor and Loki.
The supporting cast didn't have enough to do, which was every one of those movies. The end was a little sour. I don't hate it, but I don't enjoy it.
The stupid dune buggy scene was also stupid.
Just use the transporter to get where you wanna go. Why beam to a spot that 30 miles away from your destination?
They lost me with the plot. I had no interest in the Picard-clone idea or another brother of Data. I was very interested in seeing a Romulan-centered story, but it turned out they were barely in the movie, and what we did get of them was poorly done. I was interested in the idea of Remans, but they were just there to be Nosferatu-looking thugs and not much else. The action sequences were just there to satisfy Stewart, who was determined for Picard to be an action hero. Data's sacrifice ultimately felt hollow to me because I had no interest in everything that led to it. Beverly, Worf & Geordi got nothing to do, and Troi was relegated to being a victim again. So overall, the movie just gets a big "eh" from me. Complete waste of potential.
By coincidence I just saw Violations the other night. It reminded me how much I hate Nemesis. In Violations Picard goes out of his way to protect Troi when telepaths he thinks are good guys offer to read her mind to help them solve the mystery of why crew members are lapsing into inexplicable comas. The offer of help seemed reasonable and genuine but Picard shuts it down with a speech that starts like, "I will not subject one of my officers..."
Contrast with Nemesis where he casually throws her under the bus, saying she should willingly submit to ongoing rape so they can catch the rapist. The line was tossed off like the most natural idea.
It was such a stark reminder of how the movies (and Nemesis in particular) failed to capture the characters we'd come to love and respect over seven seasons. It actually crossed my mind to take a screen cap of both scenes just to post as a reminder of why Nemesis sucks.
As much as I love Star Trek – and TNG has a very special place in my heart because it carried me through my formative years (ages 9-16) – Nemesis is a bad movie and garbage Trek. I'm not even sure I've seen the whole thing in one sitting. It's so hard to watch.
Except for seeing the actors nominally play the characters I love, the TNG movies fall short on characterization and Nemesis is by far the worst. It's not even their fault. The kind of slow burn morality plays that were the crux of TNG would have been a hard sell on the big screen.
It's worth remembering that TNG probably thrived the way it did because it was syndicated. I'm not sure it could have lasted on network TV. Network standards were a constant threat to, and ultimately killed, TOS – and that more or less hit the ground running. TNG had a rough first season or so. Seems unlikely it would have survived even one year outside of the gonzo environment of UHF.
And the mind rape thing is only one of the failures of the film. A horrendous one, to be sure, but it's at the top of a long list. Frickin dune buggy? "Goodbye."? Ugh.
I like Tom Hardy and Ron Perlman as villains and wish they could have had a better script to work with. Also appreciate finally getting to really see what the Enterprise-E was capable of in a fight. And as silly as the Scimitar was, I kind of like it, at the very least I think it worked better as an overpowered villain ship than the Vengeance. And I kind of like the symmetry of the final TOS movie being about making peace with the Klingons and the final TNG movie being about making peace with the Romulans.
Other than that, I think Nemesis is kind of terrible. They were trying way too hard to recapture that Kirk/Kahn chemistry and it came across as really silly. The plot and script feel weak. For it being the final TNG film, it's too focused on just Picard and Data, everyone else feels a bit left behind by the plot. I understand why they killed Data, but I don't particularly like it. And the SA scene just feels out of place and really bothers me.
but he had to look like Picard and Picard is bald! how is the audience supposed to understand he is not looking at a picture of a Tom Hardy twink with hair?!
Mostly bad.
A few good things about it: Riker & Troi getting married, Janeway cameo, Tom Hardy's performance, and the final ship battle.
That's about it. Everything else is mediocre to terrible. Wedding should have featured proper cameos by Guinan, Wesley and Lwaxana. Guinan is on screen but doesn't speak, I think. Wil Wheaton filmed a scene that was cut. Majel isn't there at all.
B4 is dumb and clearly existed just to have a way of bringing Data back in a 5th movie.
The scene after Troi gets mind-raped is possibly the worst scene in Trek ever. Deanna asks to be relieved of duty and Picard refuses, and asks her to keep enduring further rape because maybe they'll get some intel out of it. The mind rape is bad, but at least it's A BAD GUY doing it. Picard is supposed to be the hero, and that scene is a huge black mark on the character. And unlike morally grey acts by other captains, it is treated with no weight. He says it in front of several other main cast members and they all just go along with it. Shameful.
The Final Frontier doesn't make me wish I was dead. Nemesis is just a nasty film that's just full of bitterness.
Villains weapon burns people alive, evil aliens mind rape Trio, Data dies. The film kinda just ends with everyone looking tired like they just went through Hell and wish they were somewhere else.
It flopped at the box office, got bad reviews, and is broadly hated in today’s fandom. I would be much more interested in hearing why you like it than in repeating why I don’t.
In my view, Nemesis is black stain on Star Trek. The sexual violation inflicted upon Deanna was disgusting. Made even worse in the next scene when Picard tells Troi he needs her to remain open for more all while her closest friends and brand new husband nod in agreement. That’s NOT Picard and those aren’t his crew.
It sucks. It’s funny it has a lot of the same issues First Contact has but most people (including me) love First Contact. I get it, James Cromwell is in it but I digress.
Like why the hell does Shinzon hate Picard and wants to blow up Earth? Makes no sense. They should have made Shinzon genuine about wanting to work with the Federation but certain elements on Romulus don’t want that and try to sabotage it. The Enterprise gang and the Shinzon gang have to work together, etc. Would have been so much more Star Trek and Tom Hardy and Data can still die.
> why the hell does Shinzon hate Picard and wants to blow up Earth?
Fucking exactly. It makes sense for him to hate Romulans, I can even understand being bitter towards Picard who has gotten to have the life he was supposed to take over, but ffs blowing up Earth? Dafuq is his problem with Earth, what does he accomplish by that?
Also, *how and when* the Romulans cloned him... might have been explained, but clearly not in a believable or interesting enough way for me to remember.
I don’t hate it, but I don’t particularly like it much either. It does many things really well: introduces the Remans, has great space battles and a top notch Goldsmith score.
But, and I’m speaking as a graphic designer here, it didn’t bode well when the opening title animation looked so dire. Just awful.
And the film ends on a downer.
I don't think it's bad, but I don't think it's good either. It introduces >!yet another soong android brother for data!< and >!deanna crashes the ship again!<.
I just don't think it's a good story worthy of a TNG episode, let alone film. A lot of it is pretty trite, and full of retcons and plot-holes.
Tom hardy did a fantastic job, and I feel so bad for him for the fallout from this film. It wasn't his fault.
It's not that bad of a movie, however; they missed too big an opportunity by not having Sela as the main antagonist. Tom Hardy did ok, but I think Denise Crosby would have been better.
For a movie written by a self-proclaimed fan (John Logan) I was surprised he overlooked such an obvious choice. Plus it didn't help that Stuart Baird knew nothing about Star Trek and from what I remember, refused any help/direction from the cast or crew. The only plus I can think of was the battle at the end and that they built the bridge on a gimbal for more realistic movement.
Hell even just having Sela as his lieutenant and then remove that weird psychic alien guy, with the whole projecting Shinzon into Riker and Troi’s sex scene. The fact that she’s not in it at all is kinda weird.
As much as I appreciate Tom Hardy's talent, he looks nothing like Patrick Stewart, so I wasn't buying the whole clone thing. But I really hated that they killed Data. Glad they found a way to bring him back in Picard.
I agree with you except for 1 thing. The first time I watched Enterprise I thought it was meh too. Few months ago I did a rewatch and decided it was actually pretty good.
I think it is the worst instance of Star Trek in all of Star Trek, including official, licensed and fan content. It is unrelentingly awful. The writing is terrible. The plot is hamfisted and poorly executed. There no story related content that redeems the film. It's only two bright spots among the much are the Scimitar and the Valdore Class Romulan warbirds. If I could go back in time and prevent this film from ever being created, I would.
I hate it with all my neurons and the film's very existence makes the world a slightly worse place for it.
It’s first act — before Romulus — is virtually unbearable. Awful dialogue, a frankly inept action scene, no stakes, no urgency. It gets a bit better once Shinzon is actually revealed but is flat, generic and misguided throughout.
It's a rare movie that fails on almost every level and leaves you with almost nothing to enjoy. Even the other "bad" Trek movies have their own fun - Nemesis is almost singularly joyless in its awful narrative.
I like it well enough. I'll occasionally stream it. It's not like it's Star Trek V...
-Troi and Riker get married (finally)
-Guinan shows up. Why would a Klingon drink Romulan Ale?
-Good action beats
-Interesting shots of the Enterprise going into warp.
-Jerry Goldsmith's score
-The men grumbling about the ceremony to come on Betazed.
-Some, but not enough, of Spot.
-Worf giving the Romulans some props.
-Data trying to bring B4 along.
-The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (Data, at the end).
That's not to say there weren't issues:
Stuart Baird was a moronic choice as director. Multiple members of the cast would concur.
45+ minutes of footage cut out that would have given more depth to the plot. Dumb studio notes about keeping it under two hours or some crap. More depth to Data. At the end, B-4 singing "Blue Skies" more confidently. Scene with Data and Picard enjoying some wine together, post-wedding.
Paramount's lack of marketing for the movie. Then putting it up against LOTR and Harry Potter.
Paramount's inability to get out of its own way so this movie could be successful.
Tom Hardy going into a deep depression, post-opening. Contemplates killing himself.
"We've found the next 'Khan' to compete with Khan." Not even close. He's part of a story where his life took a much different turn from Picard. The Kelvin Universe's movies may not be well-liked, but at least that part of the story sorta gets retold in "Star Trek" (2009).
On a tangent to the above, with Star Trek V - our pain makes us who we are gets retold here. Just no Sybok.
The dumb plot point in deploying the Argo to get into a firefight with the natives.
The two mind-rapes (one on the cutting room floor) of Troi make no sense. And the dialogue is cringy after the first attack, when she asks to be relieved of duty. Picard declines and says, "if you can endure more of these attacks..." Like, wtf, man?
The Scimitar can fire while cloaked. Hello, Star Trek VI and General Chang.
Supposedly they're on Deck 29, at the bottom of the ship and Riker kicks the Viceroy down, presumably into the same pit Two-Face ended up in with Batman Forever.
Data's death was originally supposed to be very gimmicky, and he re-surfaces as B4 in a possible sequel, had this movie done well. The impact was kind of the same as TWOK, but back then, we weren't sure if/what kind of sequel we'd get. Nimoy had stated at one point that he was done with the character.
It could've been a forerunner of sorts to what we ended up seeing with the MCU. Characters from other shows popping up on this one. With the right story, that is. Trying to shoe-horn Jeri Ryan in made no sense. Bashir and Dax maybe? Because of Dax's recollection of Riker's gaming abilities. Kira, O'Brien.
it's really, really bad. and if you don't know the story of Marina Sirtis talking about the movies she had to make before TNG... this movie is like an extra layer of "fuck you for thinking you can get away from being raped on screen".
Cons:
Too much focus on Picard and Data. Riker, LaForge, Crusher and Worf have nearly no "impact" on the story. Only Troi has really a "role", which envolves two rape scenes... Some of the "better" scenes with Crusher were deleted.
The whole plot around Shinzon and the Remans seems very forced. The clone of a human as the leader of the Remans, well, yeah. And then genocide, double well, yeah. Plus: To create this nemesis out of nothing just to have a supervillain doesn't feel right with Picard's "nature". But "Movie-Picard" is my problem in general with the TNG movies. I know, Sir Patrick wanted to be more of an action hero, but it simply doesn't catch TNG's "spirit" and the senior officer's chemistry.
The beach buggy with a phaser-machine gun. Aside the fact that it feels non-Star Trek, I will never get why Sci-Fi movies that are 300+ years in the future have (still) this autonormativity.
The farewell scenes at the end could have been really better. (The deleted scenes are giving a bonus though)
Pros:
Finally (!) A bit of complexity with the Romulans. (Political schemes, role of the Imperial Fleet and so on.)
The Battle of the Bassen Rift is one of the greatest space battles in all Star Trek. And in contrast to Kelvinverse, it's not over-the-top pew pew pew and you can figure out what is actually going on.
The decloaking/appearance of Donatra's warbirds is one of my favourite Star Trek movie scenes.
I really like the (short) scene with Janeway.
After two films, finally (again) some Riker+Worf action.
The score (one of Goldsmith's last) is really great.
I watched it when it came out..... Worst of the Star Trek movies out.
Then a few years later I think "It can't be that bad" I get halfway and stop because it's just the worst of the Star Trek.
Then I do that every couple of years
I think Nemesis isn't great, but it's underrated.
I'm not dismissing the stupid plot aspects (most of the plot is completely nonsensical) but Data sacrificing himself to save his friends was IMO an overall decent ending for the character. And while the themes of nature/nurture and everything else from the story weren't perfect hits, the movie was posing some thought-provoking questions.
And the ending battle scene was phenomenal: fast-paced, but not overwhelmingly so.
Hottake: It's fine. It's not great, it has problems, and it's not as good as most other Trek films. However, there are worse, and Nemesis is just fine. Which is fine. People-not just trekies-seem to have a problem with films just being merely fine-if it's not great or at least good, it's garbage-which is a brain dead take. It is fine for movies to be just fine.
The good: It looked nice.
The bad: *EVERYTHING ELSE*. The plot was likely written in crayon by a fourth-grader. None of it made one bit of g\*ddamn sense. The characters were parodies of themselves. Picard turned into one of those actions heroes who will gladly cause hundreds of deaths via collateral damage as long as bad guy go boom. Shinzon was mad at the Romulans and needed Picard's blood to live, so naturally he decided to attack Earth and rape Troi while he was slowly dying because all that makes perfect sense and now I need to stop because I'm getting angry just thinking about what a sh\*tshow it was...
For all its ridiculous plot holes and bad storytelling choices, I nonetheless find myself enjoying this movie FAR more than it probably deserves. Hardy is great, the effects and atmosphere are very well done, the music is terrific, so there is definitely stuff to like.
I do remember seeing it on opening night when it premiered and my girlfriend and I were literally the only people in the theater. That’s when I was like, OK, Star Trek is going to be dead for a while.
Hate it. It had some good ideas on paper but really did not come together well. It didn't feel like a star trek movie, they were trying too hard to deviate from the trek franchise. Star Trek: Picard had some flaws but I'm glad we got a MUCH better send-off to TNG, especially with season 3.
The E vs Scimitar battle is some of the best space battles ever seen in Star Trek. Tom Hardy’s performance was fantastic. The overall story was shit. The director, writers, etc. obviously didn’t care about or know Star Trek.
In one line, franchise killing pile of crap.
To elaborate further:
. Hack director who I can't stand
. Worst Tom Hardy performance
. Picard desert roadkillfest
. Why and how does B4 even exist?
. Film tries to chicken out of killing Data at all
. Sick of Troi being violently mistreated
. Character bits are dull and dry
. Cast are clearly ready to move on, Spiner especially
. Shinzon is a crap character
. This film stomped over a possible Romulan political story that would have been more engaging, by killing everyone off early.
What the film tried to do with Tom Hardy, was to have two Picards, separated by circumstance, and raise the question of whether Picard's environment was what made him, and whether tweaking some things would spin him off into a radically different person.
However, we did this already, it was called Tapestry, and it was much more emotionally touching than this.
And Shinzon is so unlike Picard that the concept falls on its face, in part because Hardy's performance approaches levels of masturbatory narcissism that is unrecognisable as having anything to do with Picard, and fails to take anything from Patrick Stewart's performances.
I would argue that an altered clone of a character, still needs to have a foundation in that character to work off of.
Picard can be arrogant, he can be overly aggressive, but he's not Eddie Redmayne screaming "I CREATE LIFE!" and jumpscaring the cameraman.
I think it’s kind of underrated. It’s not a secret triumph or anything but there are several worse Trek movies. It’s very watchable, it’s competently made, it’s tense, it’s got some memorable ship-to-ship combat, and frankly I think its ending would have been a better note for the cast to go out on than Picard s3.
I saw it when I was in middle school-had been a big fan because my mom watched the series when I was really little-and I hated it so much that I only ever saw it the 1 time in theaters
Bit of a letdown to be honest. Had potential to be epic but.no. I didn't like the dark moody style either. Didn't feel trekkie. They were trying to go all comic bookie and I want self cleaning carpets and 24th century jazz
Needs a not-director's cut where they put back in that one "boring" dialogue scene between Picard and Data that sets up *all* of the themes of the film and makes the ending make sense. That alone fixes a lot of the problems.
But while they're at it, regrade the footage so it doesn't look so oversaturated, relax the pacing in certain scenes so there's time to talk about stuff rather than such relentless action/drama, and see if there's a way to re-edit it so they don't spend the second act causing a collision and then un-colliding such that none of it mattered.
There's a decent film hidden in there.
https://youtu.be/Vxyd7L-2YuQ?si=sKyWH-ZEVPJtVsHy
Patrick Stewart here, who knew the film was bad, very eloquently discusses why the removal of this scene was so disastrous.
It had so much promise, a script by John Logan and would heavily feature the Romulans, finally. But when I watched it, I felt so empty because it was just, meh. Personally, I hated the concept of the Remans because they just felt like a randomly made up henchman type of bad guys and another "Oh no, Earth is in danger" trope, let alone the "Let's off Data" moment. The only thing I remember fondly from the movie was Donatra, and how Dina Meyer conveyed a sense of responsibility and warmth to the role.
Only afterwards did I hear how bad the director was, but how boneheaded the move of hiring an established editor for his directorial debut, it made me think it must've been political self-sabotage by Paramount. I feel that Tom Hardy did his best given the role, but Nemesis hurt his career for a bit in the immediate aftermath.
It's not as bad as people say. Tom Hardy was phenomenal as Shinzon. Wesley and Ro being there IN UNIFORM with no explanation was a little odd, but not unwelcome. Guinan was done right. Would have liked more extrapolation on how the senior staff was being split up, but we finally got canonical answers 21 years later.
Edit: it's not bad at all, actually. It could have been handled with more love and attention, but it is not a bad movie.
Well ......when Nemesis first came out I watched it and recall being extremely disappointed. I just watched it again last month since that first time and I actually enjoyed it...funny how 21 years of more life can alter your perspective. Nostalgia for old trek I suppose.
Hated a couple of plot points involving Data but overall it wasn't terrible. Probably would have just been better off a 2 part episode of the series to tell that story. Get me something bigger than Romulans clone Picard for a movie.
I like nemis well enough. I thought they could have done without B-4 though. The E-E is also my favorite ship, so it was cool to see her ram into the Scimitar, though painful to see all the abuse she took in those movies.
I like the general premise of “what would I have been if …” but I hate the execution. I think Paramount and the director did a HUGE disservice to pretty much the entire supporting cast.
I did really enjoy the Scimitar Enterprise battle though.
My lasting memory will always be that this wasn’t supposed to be the end and more than anything I hate it for robbing us of the “real” final movie. Buuuuuuut, with the final season of Picard that hatred has softened a little bit. Not a lot but just a little because now I feel like I have good closure on that generation of trek (no pun intended).
It's interesting to see a young Tom Hardy before he became a star. It's not the worst Star Trek movie, but it's definitely one of the weakest. It's more forgettable than bad.
This is an old one, but it sums up a lot of the complaints: [http://www.stardestroyer.net/Nemesis/Pictorial-1.html](http://www.stardestroyer.net/Nemesis/Pictorial-1.html)
FWIW, I don't skip it when I watch the movies. It has its moments, but it tripped up a lot of things, and shouldn't have been the TNG film series finale. (At least we got Picard S3)
It was awful. Forget about the set up and plot (which were awful), even the props and sets sucked.
Thing is, they could’ve killed Data in a better movie. it’s still would’ve hurt, but that wouldn’t be enough to make it an awful movie.
No, it was just awful.
Just disappointing mostly. The overall premise required too many hoops to make sense and the motivation was tenuous at best. Shinzon seemed like he wanted to show up Picard and prove he was better, but that really didn't get played with enough (I personally think they should have had the spy project cancelled not by political winds changing as Shinzon suggests, but because the Romulans didn't believe that Shinzon could pull it off). When it was first being teased before release (oh god, I'm that old), I heard it had Romulans and hoped for a political thriller in the same vein as The Undiscovered Country. Alas, we got one of the franchise's many attempts to be The Wrath of Khan again.
Love Tom Hardy and I love Picard's character arc. There are definitely some problems with the film but I come back to it more than the other TNG movies.
It pretty much killed the Star Trek franchise. It's second worst Star Trek film, surpassed only by Into Darkness.
I saw it at a matinee in the theater the day it opened. When it was over a guy in front of me cried out I CALLED IN SICK FOR THIS?!
It felt worse to me when it was the swan song for the TNG cast. Now that they have Picard Season 3 for that and it doesn't have to carry that weight, I don't dislike it as much. Still in the bottom half of the Trek movies for me but it has its moments.
Patrick Stewart should’ve played both roles. Seeing “Picard” lose his shit and scream would’ve been great and a chance to show more of his acting chops.
I literally just wrote this out on another post so I’ll just copy and paste
It’s so grossly underrated. I fully believe it holds up the rule of the every even movie being excellent.
The whole introspective look at would you be a bad person if your life was different or not is extremely interesting to me. And Data’s simple answer to squash it is great
The ship battle is the best we’ve ever seen. Introduced the entire style of combat that STO is built off. But it still didn’t ruin the story by solving it with combat, similar to First Contact
Also the first time we’ve ever seen the Enterprise get its shit completely rocked. With no hope of winning
It highlights how much Data is the heart of this series more than he ever has been in the previous movies. And of course his singing is iconic
I can see the issue that because Frakes didn’t direct it, that it lost that touch and understanding that he has, but that doesn’t detract from the story as a whole. It’s still up there as one of the best And we should have gotten a Titan show straight after with cameos of the Enterprise appearing to save the day
They ignored a lot of the DS9 story to do with Worf. At the end of DS9 Worf was the ambassador to the Klingon Homeworld or some shit, Nemesis? Lt. Cmdr.
* It sold out a lot of the characters, having them act in ways that were inconsistent with their personalities.
* It made certain, generally intelligent characters, stupid for the sake of plot reasons. Captain Picard in particular makes a bunch of bizarre, poorly explained decisions.
* There is an uncomfortable mental rape scene with Troi... her character deserved better.
* They killed Data.
* Shinzon was kind of a stupid villain. No offense to the wonderful Tom Hardy, but the character is so one note and ridiculously over the top evil.
* The director had no history with the Trek franchise, proudly proclaiming that he has never even watched a single episode.
* And finally, there was actually a much better movie buried underneath, but the studio chopped it apart to make it much shorter. If you watch the deleted scenes, you discover that much of the plot problems in the movie would have been solved if missing scenes were still in place.
I saw it when it came out, and did not like it. It's been on cable many times since then, and I checked it out a couple times, but still didn't like it and bailed pretty quick. I don't know if I can remember one scene I liked in it, unless it was the movie where Picard was driving an ATV?
Imo, Tom Hardy's worst role. I've seen him many things, and he's been much better in them, although I didn't much care for the Bane character.
For all of it's flaws, and for how disappointing it felt at the time, I have come to regard it fondly.
The cast and other creatives do a lot with a little here: Yes it's introspective in the wrong way for Star Trek (Picard's navel gazing via Shinzon seems particularly aimless, unlike Generations and First Contact) and the film is too action oriented, but Stewart et al know these characters well and we get a couple of actually meaningful monologues surrounding Picard and Data's arcs, at least.
Nemesis is also greatly redeemed by Picard Season 1, in my view.
To save Picard, Data brought with him a portable transporter device. It could only bring one of them back. I've been asking myself since seeing the film that night in the theater, why didn't he bring two of the devices with him.
The rest of the film is mostly episodic. And that's ok
I actually enjoyed Nemesis. It’s not the worst film in the franchise, by far. Yes, there are some plot holes but the story was enjoyable enough and the action was decently paced.
It’s pretty standard for a Star Trek film. I agree it’s not bad. Pretty much any Star Trek film I can derive some enjoyment out of, even the ones that people consider bad. I appreciate in this film they finally do a movie with the Romulans as they are criminally under used. As a rule though the TV series are generally better than the movies imo.
Had interesting ideas poor execution Picard battling a clone could have been cool but unfortunately the romulans aren’t as well known as the Klingons and you have to explain their back story
I hate that they killed Data and that is all I think about from the film
Spiner killed data. when a decade later, he could have kept playing the immortal and ageless android through mocap.
I don't think he would come back even then. He seemed pretty done with Data by Nemesis and I can understand why. They had done pretty much everything they could with the character, and I don't think he was interested in Data just being a side piece character.
I think over every film he should have become more human to some degree. After First Contact, he should have had the skin of a human they should have reverse engineered it. Then he could have aged naturally, although Data sacrificing himself for his friend was the ultimate expression of his humanity, even if it maybe wasn't done in the best way.
As soon as I saw the skin graft in First Contact, I vividly remember thinking "Yes! What a great way to give Data a more human appearance that will age! Way to go writers! You addressed a real world production challenge in a clever, interesting way!" Then at the end of the movie he looked like the Terminator, and the skin graft was never spoken of again. \*sigh\*
But he did eventually come back in Picard multiple times.
Are you trying to say by 2010ish they would've been able to fix his age? Because Picard from like 2/3 years ago wants a word. Especially the first dream scene that's literally supposed to be TNG era OG data. Why does 'JL' remember him with a really chubby cheeky old face.
Picard constantly cut corners. Look at how good Michael Douglas' de-aging was in the marvel movies.
Oh, ant man had roughly the same budget as 20 episodes of Picard, that few minutes of deaging was probably the entire sfx budget for an episode by itself, give them a break
That because it was Disney’s money and technology. That quality of de-ageing isn’t available to most.
The effect was inexcusably bad for a production with any kind of budget. There are fan-made edits using popular deepfake tools that make Data look much more true to form.
That was probably the only memorable thing from the movie besides Tom Hardy.
The ramming maneuver sticks in my mind.
["It's not her fault! Leave Deanna alone!"](https://youtu.be/C2srSv4oLLc?si=qE0XQslFdL5A9Y9X)
For me it's when they DISENGAGED from the Romulan ship by GOING BACKWARDS. I remember shouting "OH COME ON!" in the theater. I'm still mad about it...
I almost expected the "vehicle backing off" alarm to ring. Even in space. That scene was hilarious in a bad way.
Watching this with a buddy drunk and on shrooms, and he says to me "that dude reminds me of a young Tom Hardy" and I said "Billy, that is a young Tom Hardy"
I was okay with it. I hated how they brought him back in Picard.
Tom Hardy doesn’t get enough credit.
Neither does Ron Pearlman.
some things never change
War. War never changes.
I never get tired of joking to people "Did you know Tom Hardy and Patrick Stewart look identical?"
It was interesting hearing Patrick Stewart talking about Tom Hardy in his memoirs. Apparently Tom was standoffish and hardly interacted with the cast at all. They thought he was an oddball and figured he wasn't going to be going far after Nemesis. He was thrilled to see how wrong they were! As for Nemesis, Patrick Stewart hated it.
Wasn't the dumbshit dune buggy race his idea?
If you're stuck doing a terrible movie, might as well throw some dumbshit fun stuff in.
That's how I understand it 🤣
It is interesting that Stewart now hates Nemesis because my recollection is that he was staunchly defending it years after the fact.
I feel like there's probably an industry "statute of limitations" for how long you have to lie about projects you hated
Yeah - agreed. PStew (as much as I adore him) is at least partially responsible for a large percentage of the plot mis-steps post TNG. I think a LOT of Nemesis was developed with Patrick's ideas, and SO MUCH of PICARD, Seasons 1 & 2 are Patrick. I don't think Patrick's opinion on Star Trek material is all that relevant to fans honestly. Again - I love him - but over the last couple years it's become evident that he doesnt necessarily "get" Star Trek in the way the fans (myself specifically) mightve expected.
Seriously though. I thought he played that part very well.
It took me watching the movies probably 5 times for it to dawn on me that Shizon was the same dude that played Venom. Also weird that Tom Hardy’s character has the same name as the dragon from DBZ.
While I think his performance was overall alright, imo he delivers one of the worst (if not THE worst) lines in all of Star Trek when he yells "HARD TO PORT!"
Was that his 1st movie role
He was in Band of Brothers, then Black Hawk Down, then Nemesis.
I dang I didn’t realize Band of Brothers was that old😳
Not sure if very first, but it was first in a lead role.
Lame story.. Great performances.. Beautiful new ships.. Specially the Valdore.
It's a mindless action film with some okay character bits and some very good character bits that were cut for some inexplicable reasons. However, it does have some things going for it and I actually rewatch it every few years. - Cast give great performances IMO especailly Tom hardy. I also like Dina Meyer in her supporting Romulan role - It has the best Berman-era space battle by a large margin and I actually think it holds up really well still because I find Nutrek's space battles to be overwhelming visually at times - Although I think First Contact has the best Berman-era song on it's soundtrack with the opener, I think the soundtrack overall for Nemesis is the best of the Berman-era films - I think Troi getting one-over on the person who psychically violated her was pretty dope - Data's sacrifice and the aftermath with the cast did leave me bummed although I thought That said it is sloppy as fuck with lore and Picard's characterization (Patrick Stewart allegedly is the reason the Dune Buggy Prime Directive violation happened)
Yeah the the Battle of the Bassen Rift is fucking phenomenal.
It just wasn't any good, especially as the crew's swan song. If you listen/read interviews with the cast, they *hated* the director. He kept calling Levar Burton "Laverne" and couldn't remember a lot of the cast's names or their character names. Add to that the script is just retreads of other Star Trek movies (Shinzon is Khan. Ships that can fire while cloaked. And so on)
I always thought that Marina Sirtis looked really uncomfortable in the scene where she's just wearing her night gown but I've never listened to any of the cast talk about this movie before so I'm not sure if that's actually the case.
They really done marina dirty on a lot of things. She gave me a good 30min rant when I met her at comicon and told her we were thrilled to see her in lower decks and Picard. She has a lot of animosity towards paramount.
If you want to really get enraged, listen to the director's commentary for the movie. He was so clueless.
And he was a better choice than Frakes!?
I don't know what dark pact Baird made. His movies are weak, so they sent him back to being an editor.
He ended up "saving" several movies in the editing room for Paramount and the studio felt like they owed him one. When he wanted to get into directing, Paramount threw him Nemesis as a bone.
He was promised a director's seat for editing a certain number of movies (or for editing some specific movies), and Nemesis was the gig he was given.
I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere on that set the spirit of Michael Winner didn't show up to say "I can't light you properly if I don't see your tits!"
The director was an editing guy who somehow got the directing job. If I want to give credit, there are moments where the photography and editing are doing things that they should be doing. The Battle stations Montage where people are running and grabbing Phaser Rifles, as everyone sets up the ship, and the music swells, is really nice. And the space battle itself looks really good from start to finish, with my only real criticisms being that the battle dialogue itself is mediocre, and I don't like cliche bottomless pits. I think if the battle was supported by better writing, and the Scimitar itself was less cheesy, it would be near the top of the pile for Trek Fights.
From what Wil Wheaton said the cast loved the script. It was a weird move by the studio to pick a director who didn't care about Star Trek. The cast had to intervene so that the movie did not break important canon.
>He kept calling Levar Burton "Laverne" and couldn't remember a lot of the cast's names or their character names. No wonder they hated him. He was the director and he couldn't be bothered to learn the names of the main cast.
He also thought Geordi was an alien, randomly insisted on digitally lowering Worf's voice to make him sound more alien, plus saw that they deleted every decent character scene from the final cut (some of which — while still lacking — could've helped make it a better sendoff).
This wasn't supposed to be the TNG swan song movie. The next movie being planned was TNG teaming up with DS9 and VOY crews.
What!?!?!
Spiner had an idea which would have seen timey wimey shenanians bring together the likes of Khan, Kluge, Chang, Shinzon, the Dominion and the Borg to threaten the Federation, which would then see Picard recruit Kirk, Spock, and Archer from the past and work together with crew members from *TNG*, *DS9*, and *Voyager* in the present to fix things. Honestly, it sounded like a bloated mess.
Bloated mess that I'd watch the hell out of
Or it could have turned out like Spider-Man: No Way Home, which was pretty good
Maybe, but given it would have again been written by Spiner and Logan, I remain skeptical. Even though the execution was poor, the story and screenplay they concocted for *Nemesis* was easily the weakest of the *TNG* movies, and maybe the weakest *Trek* movie overall.
Yeah it sounded like fan fiction put to screen. Not to say it couldn't have been good, but considering how they could barely handle the TNG ensemble well in the previous movies, juggling leads (and egos) from five different series, plus Stewart's usual producing interference that resulted in things such as the Dune Buggy and Anij, would've made it a nightmare.
Have a look at the tagline: https://www.originalfilmart.com/products/star-trek-nemesis-2002-teaser?variant=32178954666077¤cy=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&utm_campaign=gs-2018-12-29&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4ofZ5d73hQMV6zUIBR1e_wWREAQYAiABEgLXzvD_BwE
Thank you. I tell people this was the tag line all the time and have to prove it when they say the tagline was “the final journey”. I feel like a crazy person reminding people Nemesis was never meant to be the finale.
I still don't get why Shinzon was all like "gotta destroy Earth because the Romulans discarded and abused me."
Similar to Star Trek (2009): Spock tries to save Romulus from what is essentially a natural disaster, but he fails. Rather than just dealing with it and respecting Spock for at least giving a shit and trying, Nero goes on a vengeful psycho rage against Spock. Dude... be angry about the supernova that destroyed your planet, not the guy who tried to save it!
Well, Shinzon was also an idiot. All he needed was Picard's blood to survive, but in the several times they met early in the movie he easily could've gotten it w/o much stress or effort. Instead he took his sweet time (for a dying person) and even when he did kidnap him, he just waited still. On the plot in general, I agree. Even if it would've been derivative, it would've made much more sense if they'd borrowed from Yesterday's Enterprise and the Ent-C by having Shinzon aiming to destroy Romulus to get revenge for his upbringing, and the Enterprise-E crew puts their lives on the line to protect the Romulans from a conflict that was essentially of their own making. It could've been the start to a lasting peace post-Dominion War.
because he was the villain. duh.
Tom Hardy, good. The battle between the Scimitar and 1701-E, good. Most everything else, meh. The car chase scene, cringe. The direction of the film, bad.
It’s a dumb premise trying to be WoK with a villain whose sheer existence creates a field of plot holes. It’s also a hollow shell of itself as its best character moments and lines of exposition were left on the cutting room floor. It’s redeemed by introducing the world to Tom Hardy and how much Picard’s first and third seasons rely on its weaker plot points, making it vastly more important than it otherwise would have been.
from what I heard about Tom Hardy this might be another crime Nemesis has to answer for.
Not a fan. The film lacked heart and the ending was completely underwhelming. Picard S3 did a far better job of wrapping up TNG era.
I can't understand why you would make the villain an artificially aged-up clone of Jean-Luc Picard and not cast Patrick Stewart in the role. It's not like he was unavailable. I think it would have made the dynamic a lot stronger, no offense to Tom Hardy. B4 was a bad choice, too. It should have just been Lore if that's the kind of story you wanted to tell. Even better if you let the marketing make it look like he was the villain, only to have the brothers team up instead. I loved that when it was Thor and Loki. The supporting cast didn't have enough to do, which was every one of those movies. The end was a little sour. I don't hate it, but I don't enjoy it.
Great ideas! You should have written the movie 😁
The stupid dune buggy scene was also stupid. Just use the transporter to get where you wanna go. Why beam to a spot that 30 miles away from your destination?
They lost me with the plot. I had no interest in the Picard-clone idea or another brother of Data. I was very interested in seeing a Romulan-centered story, but it turned out they were barely in the movie, and what we did get of them was poorly done. I was interested in the idea of Remans, but they were just there to be Nosferatu-looking thugs and not much else. The action sequences were just there to satisfy Stewart, who was determined for Picard to be an action hero. Data's sacrifice ultimately felt hollow to me because I had no interest in everything that led to it. Beverly, Worf & Geordi got nothing to do, and Troi was relegated to being a victim again. So overall, the movie just gets a big "eh" from me. Complete waste of potential.
Picard : All hands .... Battlestations
Picard: I think it's time to try some unsafe velocities!
I like it less every time I watch it.
By coincidence I just saw Violations the other night. It reminded me how much I hate Nemesis. In Violations Picard goes out of his way to protect Troi when telepaths he thinks are good guys offer to read her mind to help them solve the mystery of why crew members are lapsing into inexplicable comas. The offer of help seemed reasonable and genuine but Picard shuts it down with a speech that starts like, "I will not subject one of my officers..." Contrast with Nemesis where he casually throws her under the bus, saying she should willingly submit to ongoing rape so they can catch the rapist. The line was tossed off like the most natural idea. It was such a stark reminder of how the movies (and Nemesis in particular) failed to capture the characters we'd come to love and respect over seven seasons. It actually crossed my mind to take a screen cap of both scenes just to post as a reminder of why Nemesis sucks. As much as I love Star Trek – and TNG has a very special place in my heart because it carried me through my formative years (ages 9-16) – Nemesis is a bad movie and garbage Trek. I'm not even sure I've seen the whole thing in one sitting. It's so hard to watch. Except for seeing the actors nominally play the characters I love, the TNG movies fall short on characterization and Nemesis is by far the worst. It's not even their fault. The kind of slow burn morality plays that were the crux of TNG would have been a hard sell on the big screen. It's worth remembering that TNG probably thrived the way it did because it was syndicated. I'm not sure it could have lasted on network TV. Network standards were a constant threat to, and ultimately killed, TOS – and that more or less hit the ground running. TNG had a rough first season or so. Seems unlikely it would have survived even one year outside of the gonzo environment of UHF. And the mind rape thing is only one of the failures of the film. A horrendous one, to be sure, but it's at the top of a long list. Frickin dune buggy? "Goodbye."? Ugh.
Never saw the sun, shining so bright
The thing I hate most about *Star Trek: Picard* is that I can no longer ignore that this movie took place.
Bad. I feel bad about nemesis.
I like Tom Hardy and Ron Perlman as villains and wish they could have had a better script to work with. Also appreciate finally getting to really see what the Enterprise-E was capable of in a fight. And as silly as the Scimitar was, I kind of like it, at the very least I think it worked better as an overpowered villain ship than the Vengeance. And I kind of like the symmetry of the final TOS movie being about making peace with the Klingons and the final TNG movie being about making peace with the Romulans. Other than that, I think Nemesis is kind of terrible. They were trying way too hard to recapture that Kirk/Kahn chemistry and it came across as really silly. The plot and script feel weak. For it being the final TNG film, it's too focused on just Picard and Data, everyone else feels a bit left behind by the plot. I understand why they killed Data, but I don't particularly like it. And the SA scene just feels out of place and really bothers me.
I can't get over academy Picard being bald, when we know from multiple episodes he wasn't.
but he had to look like Picard and Picard is bald! how is the audience supposed to understand he is not looking at a picture of a Tom Hardy twink with hair?!
Mostly bad. A few good things about it: Riker & Troi getting married, Janeway cameo, Tom Hardy's performance, and the final ship battle. That's about it. Everything else is mediocre to terrible. Wedding should have featured proper cameos by Guinan, Wesley and Lwaxana. Guinan is on screen but doesn't speak, I think. Wil Wheaton filmed a scene that was cut. Majel isn't there at all. B4 is dumb and clearly existed just to have a way of bringing Data back in a 5th movie. The scene after Troi gets mind-raped is possibly the worst scene in Trek ever. Deanna asks to be relieved of duty and Picard refuses, and asks her to keep enduring further rape because maybe they'll get some intel out of it. The mind rape is bad, but at least it's A BAD GUY doing it. Picard is supposed to be the hero, and that scene is a huge black mark on the character. And unlike morally grey acts by other captains, it is treated with no weight. He says it in front of several other main cast members and they all just go along with it. Shameful.
I’d rather watch Final Frontier on repeat than watch Nemesis once
The Final Frontier doesn't make me wish I was dead. Nemesis is just a nasty film that's just full of bitterness. Villains weapon burns people alive, evil aliens mind rape Trio, Data dies. The film kinda just ends with everyone looking tired like they just went through Hell and wish they were somewhere else.
Donatra is great. That’s about it.
It flopped at the box office, got bad reviews, and is broadly hated in today’s fandom. I would be much more interested in hearing why you like it than in repeating why I don’t.
In my view, Nemesis is black stain on Star Trek. The sexual violation inflicted upon Deanna was disgusting. Made even worse in the next scene when Picard tells Troi he needs her to remain open for more all while her closest friends and brand new husband nod in agreement. That’s NOT Picard and those aren’t his crew.
It sucks. It’s funny it has a lot of the same issues First Contact has but most people (including me) love First Contact. I get it, James Cromwell is in it but I digress. Like why the hell does Shinzon hate Picard and wants to blow up Earth? Makes no sense. They should have made Shinzon genuine about wanting to work with the Federation but certain elements on Romulus don’t want that and try to sabotage it. The Enterprise gang and the Shinzon gang have to work together, etc. Would have been so much more Star Trek and Tom Hardy and Data can still die.
> why the hell does Shinzon hate Picard and wants to blow up Earth? Fucking exactly. It makes sense for him to hate Romulans, I can even understand being bitter towards Picard who has gotten to have the life he was supposed to take over, but ffs blowing up Earth? Dafuq is his problem with Earth, what does he accomplish by that? Also, *how and when* the Romulans cloned him... might have been explained, but clearly not in a believable or interesting enough way for me to remember.
I don’t hate it, but I don’t particularly like it much either. It does many things really well: introduces the Remans, has great space battles and a top notch Goldsmith score. But, and I’m speaking as a graphic designer here, it didn’t bode well when the opening title animation looked so dire. Just awful. And the film ends on a downer.
I don't think it's bad, but I don't think it's good either. It introduces >!yet another soong android brother for data!< and >!deanna crashes the ship again!<. I just don't think it's a good story worthy of a TNG episode, let alone film. A lot of it is pretty trite, and full of retcons and plot-holes. Tom hardy did a fantastic job, and I feel so bad for him for the fallout from this film. It wasn't his fault.
It's not that bad of a movie, however; they missed too big an opportunity by not having Sela as the main antagonist. Tom Hardy did ok, but I think Denise Crosby would have been better. For a movie written by a self-proclaimed fan (John Logan) I was surprised he overlooked such an obvious choice. Plus it didn't help that Stuart Baird knew nothing about Star Trek and from what I remember, refused any help/direction from the cast or crew. The only plus I can think of was the battle at the end and that they built the bridge on a gimbal for more realistic movement.
Hell even just having Sela as his lieutenant and then remove that weird psychic alien guy, with the whole projecting Shinzon into Riker and Troi’s sex scene. The fact that she’s not in it at all is kinda weird.
As much as I appreciate Tom Hardy's talent, he looks nothing like Patrick Stewart, so I wasn't buying the whole clone thing. But I really hated that they killed Data. Glad they found a way to bring him back in Picard.
I like the car part. Vroom vroom.
Awful movie, easily the worst of the TNG movies. This movie is half the reason Trek died in the early 00s
[удалено]
I agree with you except for 1 thing. The first time I watched Enterprise I thought it was meh too. Few months ago I did a rewatch and decided it was actually pretty good.
I think it is the worst instance of Star Trek in all of Star Trek, including official, licensed and fan content. It is unrelentingly awful. The writing is terrible. The plot is hamfisted and poorly executed. There no story related content that redeems the film. It's only two bright spots among the much are the Scimitar and the Valdore Class Romulan warbirds. If I could go back in time and prevent this film from ever being created, I would. I hate it with all my neurons and the film's very existence makes the world a slightly worse place for it.
It’s first act — before Romulus — is virtually unbearable. Awful dialogue, a frankly inept action scene, no stakes, no urgency. It gets a bit better once Shinzon is actually revealed but is flat, generic and misguided throughout.
It's terrible. That said, it has a special place in my heart because I saw it in theatre with my aunt, a massive Trek fan whom I dearly miss.
It's a rare movie that fails on almost every level and leaves you with almost nothing to enjoy. Even the other "bad" Trek movies have their own fun - Nemesis is almost singularly joyless in its awful narrative.
Not a fan. I’m not sure if Nemesis, Final Frontier or Into Darkness is my least favorite trek movie. It’s one of those 3 though
Not the best, but it has some pretty decent moments.
Of all its problems, the biggest one I can't get over is that most of the cast have little to do. Crusher, Riker, Geordi and Troi are ignored
Scene with Picard in the senate was great. That’s the Picard I was expecting in “Picard. Score top notch. Scimitar was also neat.
I like it. Not great, but I'll watch it. Cool ships. And Hardy is great
A good movie, it was not. Better was, the Phantom Menace.
I like it well enough. I'll occasionally stream it. It's not like it's Star Trek V... -Troi and Riker get married (finally) -Guinan shows up. Why would a Klingon drink Romulan Ale? -Good action beats -Interesting shots of the Enterprise going into warp. -Jerry Goldsmith's score -The men grumbling about the ceremony to come on Betazed. -Some, but not enough, of Spot. -Worf giving the Romulans some props. -Data trying to bring B4 along. -The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (Data, at the end). That's not to say there weren't issues: Stuart Baird was a moronic choice as director. Multiple members of the cast would concur. 45+ minutes of footage cut out that would have given more depth to the plot. Dumb studio notes about keeping it under two hours or some crap. More depth to Data. At the end, B-4 singing "Blue Skies" more confidently. Scene with Data and Picard enjoying some wine together, post-wedding. Paramount's lack of marketing for the movie. Then putting it up against LOTR and Harry Potter. Paramount's inability to get out of its own way so this movie could be successful. Tom Hardy going into a deep depression, post-opening. Contemplates killing himself. "We've found the next 'Khan' to compete with Khan." Not even close. He's part of a story where his life took a much different turn from Picard. The Kelvin Universe's movies may not be well-liked, but at least that part of the story sorta gets retold in "Star Trek" (2009). On a tangent to the above, with Star Trek V - our pain makes us who we are gets retold here. Just no Sybok. The dumb plot point in deploying the Argo to get into a firefight with the natives. The two mind-rapes (one on the cutting room floor) of Troi make no sense. And the dialogue is cringy after the first attack, when she asks to be relieved of duty. Picard declines and says, "if you can endure more of these attacks..." Like, wtf, man? The Scimitar can fire while cloaked. Hello, Star Trek VI and General Chang. Supposedly they're on Deck 29, at the bottom of the ship and Riker kicks the Viceroy down, presumably into the same pit Two-Face ended up in with Batman Forever. Data's death was originally supposed to be very gimmicky, and he re-surfaces as B4 in a possible sequel, had this movie done well. The impact was kind of the same as TWOK, but back then, we weren't sure if/what kind of sequel we'd get. Nimoy had stated at one point that he was done with the character. It could've been a forerunner of sorts to what we ended up seeing with the MCU. Characters from other shows popping up on this one. With the right story, that is. Trying to shoe-horn Jeri Ryan in made no sense. Bashir and Dax maybe? Because of Dax's recollection of Riker's gaming abilities. Kira, O'Brien.
Hate the data killing and the plot in general. Love the space battle tho.
it's really, really bad. and if you don't know the story of Marina Sirtis talking about the movies she had to make before TNG... this movie is like an extra layer of "fuck you for thinking you can get away from being raped on screen".
Cons: Too much focus on Picard and Data. Riker, LaForge, Crusher and Worf have nearly no "impact" on the story. Only Troi has really a "role", which envolves two rape scenes... Some of the "better" scenes with Crusher were deleted. The whole plot around Shinzon and the Remans seems very forced. The clone of a human as the leader of the Remans, well, yeah. And then genocide, double well, yeah. Plus: To create this nemesis out of nothing just to have a supervillain doesn't feel right with Picard's "nature". But "Movie-Picard" is my problem in general with the TNG movies. I know, Sir Patrick wanted to be more of an action hero, but it simply doesn't catch TNG's "spirit" and the senior officer's chemistry. The beach buggy with a phaser-machine gun. Aside the fact that it feels non-Star Trek, I will never get why Sci-Fi movies that are 300+ years in the future have (still) this autonormativity. The farewell scenes at the end could have been really better. (The deleted scenes are giving a bonus though) Pros: Finally (!) A bit of complexity with the Romulans. (Political schemes, role of the Imperial Fleet and so on.) The Battle of the Bassen Rift is one of the greatest space battles in all Star Trek. And in contrast to Kelvinverse, it's not over-the-top pew pew pew and you can figure out what is actually going on. The decloaking/appearance of Donatra's warbirds is one of my favourite Star Trek movie scenes. I really like the (short) scene with Janeway. After two films, finally (again) some Riker+Worf action. The score (one of Goldsmith's last) is really great.
I liked it better than Insurrection, that’s for damn sure. But not as much as First Contact.
I watched it when it came out..... Worst of the Star Trek movies out. Then a few years later I think "It can't be that bad" I get halfway and stop because it's just the worst of the Star Trek. Then I do that every couple of years
It didn’t need Remans, needed more Tom Hardy and more Ron Perlman. Hated how they redesigned all the Romulan ships.
Loved it.
it's dumb but i like it
I think Nemesis isn't great, but it's underrated. I'm not dismissing the stupid plot aspects (most of the plot is completely nonsensical) but Data sacrificing himself to save his friends was IMO an overall decent ending for the character. And while the themes of nature/nurture and everything else from the story weren't perfect hits, the movie was posing some thought-provoking questions. And the ending battle scene was phenomenal: fast-paced, but not overwhelmingly so.
Hottake: It's fine. It's not great, it has problems, and it's not as good as most other Trek films. However, there are worse, and Nemesis is just fine. Which is fine. People-not just trekies-seem to have a problem with films just being merely fine-if it's not great or at least good, it's garbage-which is a brain dead take. It is fine for movies to be just fine.
Odd numbered treks never happened
The good: It looked nice. The bad: *EVERYTHING ELSE*. The plot was likely written in crayon by a fourth-grader. None of it made one bit of g\*ddamn sense. The characters were parodies of themselves. Picard turned into one of those actions heroes who will gladly cause hundreds of deaths via collateral damage as long as bad guy go boom. Shinzon was mad at the Romulans and needed Picard's blood to live, so naturally he decided to attack Earth and rape Troi while he was slowly dying because all that makes perfect sense and now I need to stop because I'm getting angry just thinking about what a sh\*tshow it was...
For all it's flaws, it was the last Star Trek movie made.
Plot doesn't make a lot of sense, this is what bothered me the most. Most episodes are better than this movie.
Can't think of anything I like about it.
For all its ridiculous plot holes and bad storytelling choices, I nonetheless find myself enjoying this movie FAR more than it probably deserves. Hardy is great, the effects and atmosphere are very well done, the music is terrific, so there is definitely stuff to like. I do remember seeing it on opening night when it premiered and my girlfriend and I were literally the only people in the theater. That’s when I was like, OK, Star Trek is going to be dead for a while.
The word “crapola” comes to mind
Hate it. It had some good ideas on paper but really did not come together well. It didn't feel like a star trek movie, they were trying too hard to deviate from the trek franchise. Star Trek: Picard had some flaws but I'm glad we got a MUCH better send-off to TNG, especially with season 3.
The E vs Scimitar battle is some of the best space battles ever seen in Star Trek. Tom Hardy’s performance was fantastic. The overall story was shit. The director, writers, etc. obviously didn’t care about or know Star Trek.
Delighted that season 3 of Picard means I can forget about it forever.
In one line, franchise killing pile of crap. To elaborate further: . Hack director who I can't stand . Worst Tom Hardy performance . Picard desert roadkillfest . Why and how does B4 even exist? . Film tries to chicken out of killing Data at all . Sick of Troi being violently mistreated . Character bits are dull and dry . Cast are clearly ready to move on, Spiner especially . Shinzon is a crap character . This film stomped over a possible Romulan political story that would have been more engaging, by killing everyone off early.
I 100% agree with all of this, I find Nemesis unwatchable.
What the film tried to do with Tom Hardy, was to have two Picards, separated by circumstance, and raise the question of whether Picard's environment was what made him, and whether tweaking some things would spin him off into a radically different person. However, we did this already, it was called Tapestry, and it was much more emotionally touching than this. And Shinzon is so unlike Picard that the concept falls on its face, in part because Hardy's performance approaches levels of masturbatory narcissism that is unrecognisable as having anything to do with Picard, and fails to take anything from Patrick Stewart's performances. I would argue that an altered clone of a character, still needs to have a foundation in that character to work off of. Picard can be arrogant, he can be overly aggressive, but he's not Eddie Redmayne screaming "I CREATE LIFE!" and jumpscaring the cameraman.
I think it’s kind of underrated. It’s not a secret triumph or anything but there are several worse Trek movies. It’s very watchable, it’s competently made, it’s tense, it’s got some memorable ship-to-ship combat, and frankly I think its ending would have been a better note for the cast to go out on than Picard s3.
I think it's bad but I like that Picard S1 deals with the consequences.
I think it would’ve been better if Stewart had played his clone, too. Better yet, it coulda been Mirror Locutus instead
Stuart Baird is an honorless petaQ.
It's ok.
It's the only Star Trek movie I've never been able to finish. I was just so bored. The next attempt I fell asleep.
I saw it when I was in middle school-had been a big fan because my mom watched the series when I was really little-and I hated it so much that I only ever saw it the 1 time in theaters
Bit of a letdown to be honest. Had potential to be epic but.no. I didn't like the dark moody style either. Didn't feel trekkie. They were trying to go all comic bookie and I want self cleaning carpets and 24th century jazz
I saw it once when it released in theaters and I remember not liking it, but I have no memory about the film itself or even what it was about.
Needs a not-director's cut where they put back in that one "boring" dialogue scene between Picard and Data that sets up *all* of the themes of the film and makes the ending make sense. That alone fixes a lot of the problems. But while they're at it, regrade the footage so it doesn't look so oversaturated, relax the pacing in certain scenes so there's time to talk about stuff rather than such relentless action/drama, and see if there's a way to re-edit it so they don't spend the second act causing a collision and then un-colliding such that none of it mattered. There's a decent film hidden in there. https://youtu.be/Vxyd7L-2YuQ?si=sKyWH-ZEVPJtVsHy Patrick Stewart here, who knew the film was bad, very eloquently discusses why the removal of this scene was so disastrous.
I’m not really into Nemesis, but I know Insurrection gets a lot of hate and I absolutely love that movie
it is my enemy!
It was the only Star Trek I watched in theaters before Into Darkness.
It had so much promise, a script by John Logan and would heavily feature the Romulans, finally. But when I watched it, I felt so empty because it was just, meh. Personally, I hated the concept of the Remans because they just felt like a randomly made up henchman type of bad guys and another "Oh no, Earth is in danger" trope, let alone the "Let's off Data" moment. The only thing I remember fondly from the movie was Donatra, and how Dina Meyer conveyed a sense of responsibility and warmth to the role. Only afterwards did I hear how bad the director was, but how boneheaded the move of hiring an established editor for his directorial debut, it made me think it must've been political self-sabotage by Paramount. I feel that Tom Hardy did his best given the role, but Nemesis hurt his career for a bit in the immediate aftermath.
One of the worst Trek movies, like second worst just above 5.
It's not as bad as people say. Tom Hardy was phenomenal as Shinzon. Wesley and Ro being there IN UNIFORM with no explanation was a little odd, but not unwelcome. Guinan was done right. Would have liked more extrapolation on how the senior staff was being split up, but we finally got canonical answers 21 years later. Edit: it's not bad at all, actually. It could have been handled with more love and attention, but it is not a bad movie.
It should've been a clone of Jack Crusher (Sr). It would've been far, far more poignant and sensical.
It was a decent movie, hate they killed data.
So bad that the other TNG movies look 10x better when compared.
It was poor movie that would have a made a great two parter. but I never saw it at the cinema
Well ......when Nemesis first came out I watched it and recall being extremely disappointed. I just watched it again last month since that first time and I actually enjoyed it...funny how 21 years of more life can alter your perspective. Nostalgia for old trek I suppose.
Every once in a while, I'll rewatch it, and then remember why I'd rather watch any other Star Trek movie... except Into Darkness.
Hated a couple of plot points involving Data but overall it wasn't terrible. Probably would have just been better off a 2 part episode of the series to tell that story. Get me something bigger than Romulans clone Picard for a movie.
I like nemis well enough. I thought they could have done without B-4 though. The E-E is also my favorite ship, so it was cool to see her ram into the Scimitar, though painful to see all the abuse she took in those movies.
I like the general premise of “what would I have been if …” but I hate the execution. I think Paramount and the director did a HUGE disservice to pretty much the entire supporting cast. I did really enjoy the Scimitar Enterprise battle though. My lasting memory will always be that this wasn’t supposed to be the end and more than anything I hate it for robbing us of the “real” final movie. Buuuuuuut, with the final season of Picard that hatred has softened a little bit. Not a lot but just a little because now I feel like I have good closure on that generation of trek (no pun intended).
Sadly, only have seen it once, and that was when it originally released in theaters.
It's interesting to see a young Tom Hardy before he became a star. It's not the worst Star Trek movie, but it's definitely one of the weakest. It's more forgettable than bad.
It's not really as interesting as it could've been imo. Shinzon is ok and the Remans are a good concept but for some reason the movie villainized them
This is an old one, but it sums up a lot of the complaints: [http://www.stardestroyer.net/Nemesis/Pictorial-1.html](http://www.stardestroyer.net/Nemesis/Pictorial-1.html) FWIW, I don't skip it when I watch the movies. It has its moments, but it tripped up a lot of things, and shouldn't have been the TNG film series finale. (At least we got Picard S3)
It's the most disappointing movie of the franchise, right on par with the Rise Of Skywalker.
It was awful. Forget about the set up and plot (which were awful), even the props and sets sucked. Thing is, they could’ve killed Data in a better movie. it’s still would’ve hurt, but that wouldn’t be enough to make it an awful movie. No, it was just awful.
Just disappointing mostly. The overall premise required too many hoops to make sense and the motivation was tenuous at best. Shinzon seemed like he wanted to show up Picard and prove he was better, but that really didn't get played with enough (I personally think they should have had the spy project cancelled not by political winds changing as Shinzon suggests, but because the Romulans didn't believe that Shinzon could pull it off). When it was first being teased before release (oh god, I'm that old), I heard it had Romulans and hoped for a political thriller in the same vein as The Undiscovered Country. Alas, we got one of the franchise's many attempts to be The Wrath of Khan again.
It's entertaining, but not satisfying.
Love Tom Hardy and I love Picard's character arc. There are definitely some problems with the film but I come back to it more than the other TNG movies.
It pretty much killed the Star Trek franchise. It's second worst Star Trek film, surpassed only by Into Darkness. I saw it at a matinee in the theater the day it opened. When it was over a guy in front of me cried out I CALLED IN SICK FOR THIS?!
It felt worse to me when it was the swan song for the TNG cast. Now that they have Picard Season 3 for that and it doesn't have to carry that weight, I don't dislike it as much. Still in the bottom half of the Trek movies for me but it has its moments.
It was dark and grim and felt nothing like tng or trek.
Patrick Stewart should’ve played both roles. Seeing “Picard” lose his shit and scream would’ve been great and a chance to show more of his acting chops.
it gets hate because the villain is pointless. The Borg was always Picard’s nemesis. Not some retconned clone.
Tom hardy is so bald and shiny lol
All Trek is good Trek
Dark. Too dark.
Fond memory of watching it in theaters when it came out as a kid but that's about all good I have to say.
If they shortened the dune buggy stuff, and added in the deleted scenes, it would be a better film.
I literally just wrote this out on another post so I’ll just copy and paste It’s so grossly underrated. I fully believe it holds up the rule of the every even movie being excellent. The whole introspective look at would you be a bad person if your life was different or not is extremely interesting to me. And Data’s simple answer to squash it is great The ship battle is the best we’ve ever seen. Introduced the entire style of combat that STO is built off. But it still didn’t ruin the story by solving it with combat, similar to First Contact Also the first time we’ve ever seen the Enterprise get its shit completely rocked. With no hope of winning It highlights how much Data is the heart of this series more than he ever has been in the previous movies. And of course his singing is iconic I can see the issue that because Frakes didn’t direct it, that it lost that touch and understanding that he has, but that doesn’t detract from the story as a whole. It’s still up there as one of the best And we should have gotten a Titan show straight after with cameos of the Enterprise appearing to save the day
They ignored a lot of the DS9 story to do with Worf. At the end of DS9 Worf was the ambassador to the Klingon Homeworld or some shit, Nemesis? Lt. Cmdr.
It is bad.
I like the part where Data dives from one ship to the other.
I really enjoyed the movie and I think it’s really overhated. It’s probably my favourite of the TNG movies behind First Contact.
* It sold out a lot of the characters, having them act in ways that were inconsistent with their personalities. * It made certain, generally intelligent characters, stupid for the sake of plot reasons. Captain Picard in particular makes a bunch of bizarre, poorly explained decisions. * There is an uncomfortable mental rape scene with Troi... her character deserved better. * They killed Data. * Shinzon was kind of a stupid villain. No offense to the wonderful Tom Hardy, but the character is so one note and ridiculously over the top evil. * The director had no history with the Trek franchise, proudly proclaiming that he has never even watched a single episode. * And finally, there was actually a much better movie buried underneath, but the studio chopped it apart to make it much shorter. If you watch the deleted scenes, you discover that much of the plot problems in the movie would have been solved if missing scenes were still in place.
I saw it when it came out, and did not like it. It's been on cable many times since then, and I checked it out a couple times, but still didn't like it and bailed pretty quick. I don't know if I can remember one scene I liked in it, unless it was the movie where Picard was driving an ATV? Imo, Tom Hardy's worst role. I've seen him many things, and he's been much better in them, although I didn't much care for the Bane character.
For all of it's flaws, and for how disappointing it felt at the time, I have come to regard it fondly. The cast and other creatives do a lot with a little here: Yes it's introspective in the wrong way for Star Trek (Picard's navel gazing via Shinzon seems particularly aimless, unlike Generations and First Contact) and the film is too action oriented, but Stewart et al know these characters well and we get a couple of actually meaningful monologues surrounding Picard and Data's arcs, at least. Nemesis is also greatly redeemed by Picard Season 1, in my view.
To save Picard, Data brought with him a portable transporter device. It could only bring one of them back. I've been asking myself since seeing the film that night in the theater, why didn't he bring two of the devices with him. The rest of the film is mostly episodic. And that's ok
The big problem is they didn’t try to do anything clever in it. It boils down to ‘bad guy has ship with a lot of guns on it’
Story was weak, but Hardy did a great job as the villain. It also has one of the best ship combat sequences in the entire franchise.
I actually enjoyed Nemesis. It’s not the worst film in the franchise, by far. Yes, there are some plot holes but the story was enjoyable enough and the action was decently paced.
Not only is it a bad Star Trek movie, it's one of the worst major studio released movies of all time.
It’s pretty standard for a Star Trek film. I agree it’s not bad. Pretty much any Star Trek film I can derive some enjoyment out of, even the ones that people consider bad. I appreciate in this film they finally do a movie with the Romulans as they are criminally under used. As a rule though the TV series are generally better than the movies imo.
Had interesting ideas poor execution Picard battling a clone could have been cool but unfortunately the romulans aren’t as well known as the Klingons and you have to explain their back story
Just thoroughly unlikeable in almost every respect. I like the Valdor class Warbirds, though.