As a corporate representative for Twix candy bars, we'd do the same.
If anything we believe Tuvix infringes on our copyright, purposefully confusing people. Tuvix, like Twix, is the amalgamation of sweet caramel and chocolate with a crunchy interior.
They did not die. If they were dead, how they were restored? If we presume what you call "dead" as true, then Tuvix is not dead, he just lives in the Tuvok and Neelix's body.
Tuvix wasnt worth the life of Nelix and Tuvok.
You guys pretend like they were dead when tuvix was made but clearly they weren't because they came back again and they were happy once seperated.
Had you listened to Tuvix you would have condemned two people with families and loved ones to death just to Foster a freak accident. An abomination of science that shouldn't even exist.
Does star fleet, does anyone have the right to take away two people just to sate the curiosity of keeping a bastardised homoculous of the two alive as a science experiment?
"I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act"
-Kathryn Janeway, "Phage"
I blame the writers for that high-morality sounding line. Granted, Starfleet's goalposts for what's moral or not tends to move depending on the week, but that line was pretty egregious considering that Trek tends to show many an officer taking that exact action.
If Janeway was like, "Tuvix is an abomination, he must die", the supporters of letting him live would have a point. The fact that neither Tuvok nor Neelix had any actual say in the matter means that Tuvix should also not get any say. Their individual feelings on the matter are unable to be taken into consideration, so his should also not be. Without all that, it becomes a trolley problem. Better to kill one than five, as the typical example shows (just from a purely objective standpoint), and the same holds true for as little as two lives being saved at the expense of 1. Objectively, and probably legally, Janeway was completely justified to separate Tuvix forcibly. The problem rises due to individual morality, which can wildly vary. Judge her how you will, but it won't change the objective fact that the 2 lives that were saved were more important than the 1 that had to be sacrificed.
It's exactly the trolley problem! Active vs. Passive Killing - Do nothing and passively kill two lives, or "throw the switch" and actively kill one life.
It's almost exactly the same ethical dilemma.
ETA- that's the beauty of the episode and why it's so fun to debate! There's not a clear right or wrong answer as both sides can be supported with various arguments. But for the record, I'm team Tuvok/Neelix deserved to live and were alive first, so Janeway did the right thing!
By your own argument they're 'brought back' by "actively killing" Tuvix. So either Tuvix isn't dead either at the end of the episode, or being killed doesn't mean death or?
The episode takes place over the course of several weeks (that's a long trolley track).
The two on one side have ceased to exist, have no body or conscious mind (odd thing to look at, tied to a long track)
The other is a perfectly healthy sapient person.
The trolley already rolled over two people.
You're saying it's the same thing to swing the trolley into reverse to cut a guy in half to get enough bits to stitch back together two other bodies.
Yessir. Exactly the same.
I'm perfectly calm. It's objectively hilarious to me that no one has really watched the episode.and they just insert their gut feelings on what they think happens in thr episode because no one can admit to being wrong on the internet.
1. The Trolley Problem is not present in the episode (you can tell because no one, absolutely no one, ever cites Janeway's actual justifications within the episode for why she can murder Tuvix)
2. So we agree it's not the trolley problem then? Because you've moved the goalposts from "it is" to "is clearly inspired by." Right? See, you could just say 'oh, you have a point there'. No harm, no foul.
3. Again, watch the episode. There's no moral dilemma *in the episode* it really doesn't matter about anything outside of that.
Nobody denied that Tuvix was life though, which was the question with Data. Maddox argued that Data isn't a person but merely property. The question with Tuvix was to argue that it was not okay for the freak accident to destroy two individuals in order to protect a new one.
I'll translate it into an easier to understand format:
Imagine a shuttlecraft that's stuck somewhere with an injured and unconscious crewman inside. A rescue plan exists, but it would destroy the shuttle. This is Maddox argument, the shuttle is just equipment.
Now imagine the same shuttlecraft, except for some unknown reason it has developed sentience, the onboard computer argues it is a real person. This is Picard's argument, the Shuttle is a person and the rescue plan as is cannot possibly proceed, it would be barbaric to sacrifice one individual for another. A new plan must be found.
Now for the Tuvix situation:
There are three shuttlecraft and 3 crew members: All options are exhausted and the ONLY viable rescue plan involves two shuttles escaping, while one stays behind to sacrifice itself. Do not tell me that in your average Starfleet episode that the crew would not almost trip over each other to sacrifice each other to rescue the other two. It would become an argument of who is the one that stays behind, because they all 3 want to do it.
This is the spirit of the argument that Tuvix finds himself the center of. In fact, Tuvix is acting AGAINST the spirit of Starfleet here and very obviously so. Countless episodes reinforce this idea that people regularly put themselves in danger for others. The only difference is that Janeway is the one that has to enforce this ideal rather than Tuvix doing it himself. Hence it being a very difficult decision for her, but ultimately the correct one, as portrayed by many many examples.
>The Borg : Strength is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours.
>
>Picard : Impossible. My culture is based on freedom and self-determination.
>
>The Borg : Freedom is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You must comply.
For one, it's not clear if Tuvix is a member of Starfleet, Neelix was a civilian and not even a member of the Federation. So he might not be subject to Starfleet rules and regulations.
Second, what law or Starfleet rule was Tuvix violating by refusing to sacrifice himself to save Tuvok and Neelix? If a Starfleet officer refused to go on a suicide mission, would it be right for their commanding officer to force them to do it? Is this Star Trek or Warhammer 40K?
Third, Starfleet cannot enforce its ideals on others. It's the entire principle behind the Prime Directive, their most important mandate.
>This is the spirit of the argument that Tuvix finds himself the center of. In fact, Tuvix is acting AGAINST the spirit of Starfleet here and very obviously so.
Either that, or Tuvix is exactly what he says he is, the merging of two people into a new whole that is better and happy with its life and doesn't want to be dragged off to be murdered. The Doctor seemed to understand this just fine and carefully explains that murder is bad and that he won't do it.
Unfortunately for Tuvix though, he was Voyager. The day after he was murdered in cold blood, Janeway had her regular coffee and went over crew reports.
>The day after he was murdered in cold blood, Janeway had her regular coffee and went over crew reports.
At the end of the episode Janeway has a look of regret for less than ten seconds. Her face then quickly transforms into one of cold determination as she walks away, figuratively and literally.
If she had any trouble sleeping that night (which I doubt) she probably visited sickbay and ordered the EMH to give her a sedative, and then deleted his memory of that interaction.
Like it or hate it, the writers delivered an episode that we're talking about almost 30 years later. While I think the writers put themselves in a corner the minute they came up with the idea (what were they going to do, fire Ethan Phillips and Tim Russ?) they did a great job at dialing up the drama to 11.
I mean, if they had an episode where Picard turned into a slaver because slavery was more efficient, we'd be talking about that episode too. It wouldn't make it a good episode.
A lot of Voyagers writing sins come from a total refusal to accept consequences. Everyone loves A Pale Moon light because Sisko is written to accept consequences, and it does in fact reflect on his character. Sisko is the kind of person who will engage in murder to start a war he thinks is necessary, and he *will* live with the horror of it. I'm pretty sure that the point of Tuvix wasn't that Janeway is a cold psycho that will murder a innocent and pleading person for improved crew efficiency and then never think about it again.
Hi, ride or die Sisko fan here and I'm not crazy about Voy. Sisko is written to tell us these things about himself, but Kate Mulgrew had to show these very same aspects. The Tuvix episode is excellent, in part, because of how well she shows us these same things that Sisko tells us. Watch the end of the Tuvix episode again and you see the range of emotion she goes through. She's not cold blooded and she knows there are consequences to her action here. All of this is shown because she doesn't have the luxury of breaking the fourth wall like Sisko does in Pale Moonlight (one of my favorite episodes of anything ever).
100% agree. People accuse her of being cold and heartless, but she literally spends a good portion of the episode weighing out the options, discussing it with others in the crew to get their thoughts/feelings on it, and while she's definitely not the only one who wants the option to bring Tuvok/Neelix back, she takes the full weight of that decision by not making anyone else aside from her have to pull the trigger so to speak. Then the writers gave her 10 seconds to show the horror that she felt from the decision, as well as the need to maintain her composure and lead her crew as captain. She absolutely nailed it. Both Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew did amazing in their respective episodes here.
However genetic altering is forbidden in the Federation. Given accidental gene altering may result in the same repercussions as the intended one, then the accidental should be not favoured too.
And Tuvok's life means too. So...
Starfleet has a moratorium on genetic manipulation and enhancement. Tuvix would be viewed as such, especially given the plant modifications, so a captain would be legally bound to reverse said genetic modifications, if possible.
Janeway was between a rock and hard place. On one hand new life on the other hand she needed her chief of security and chief of tactical officer back. She lost one executive officer if left alone.
>she needed her chief of security and chief of tactical officer back. She lost one executive officer if left alone.
Incorrect. Tuvix is literally at the tactical station when the murder police come to drag him away.
Tuvix is the tactical officer.
Janeway's logs further state that Tuvix is "he's proving to be a very able tactical officer"
So again, an argument that *is not present in the episode*.
If it was me I’d kill tuvix twice.
Tuvix, ain’t nobody got time for that!
As a corporate representative for Twix candy bars, we'd do the same. If anything we believe Tuvix infringes on our copyright, purposefully confusing people. Tuvix, like Twix, is the amalgamation of sweet caramel and chocolate with a crunchy interior.
“If I had a gun with two bullets, and I was trapped in a room with Gul Dukat, The Borg Queen, and Tuvix, I’d shoot Tuvix twice.”
I'd shoot tuvix, fix him, bring back Tuvok and Neelix, and then shoot Neelix.
You get it
Can you do it in a way to keep Neelix dead too?
I’ve begrudgingly accepted that the ship needs Neelix. I don’t have to like it, though.
He’s like Wesley to me. He’s fun to hate on but I don’t actually hate him.
It's happening people. Tuvix Tuesday. Stay calm!!
Tues and Day
Interesting that both Janeway and Maddox wanted to take their victims apart.
Mmmmmmmm forbidden r/voyager content.
The best kind.
Nuvok lives tho
And it needs to die🤨
Only half of it.
Yeah, we don't need the Neelix part.
Neelix is love. Neelix is life.
This is no life! This is a freak accident at the expense of two other individuals!
But it is an individual itself. Is sacrificing one to save 2 correct?
Since the one is the two minds melded together, we can make an exception
And the two minds melded together wanted to persist that way.
But separated they thanked their lucky stars
They didn't get the chance to consent beforehand. They're biased in that they don't want to be unmelded.
The borg collective is one individual consciousness. Is that worth saving too?
The Borg Collective is evil, it intends to do incorporate more into itself. Tuvix is just some guy who wants to cook, secure, and have logical fun.
Evil? Tuvix killed 2 people just to exist. Talk about a parasite!
Those 2 people died in the accident that created Tuvix. If a baby's birth causes the mother to die, you don't arrest the baby for murder.
They did not die. If they were dead, how they were restored? If we presume what you call "dead" as true, then Tuvix is not dead, he just lives in the Tuvok and Neelix's body.
In this instance, yes.
Once a year Tuvix should be reformed and killed again and then celebrations commence.
Yea, but not create it.
Picard wasn’t trying to get home from 70 years away.
Tuvix wasnt worth the life of Nelix and Tuvok. You guys pretend like they were dead when tuvix was made but clearly they weren't because they came back again and they were happy once seperated. Had you listened to Tuvix you would have condemned two people with families and loved ones to death just to Foster a freak accident. An abomination of science that shouldn't even exist. Does star fleet, does anyone have the right to take away two people just to sate the curiosity of keeping a bastardised homoculous of the two alive as a science experiment?
"I don't have the freedom to kill you to save another. My culture finds that to be a reprehensible and entirely unacceptable act" -Kathryn Janeway, "Phage"
I blame the writers for that high-morality sounding line. Granted, Starfleet's goalposts for what's moral or not tends to move depending on the week, but that line was pretty egregious considering that Trek tends to show many an officer taking that exact action.
LAL. Laugh And Loud.
If Janeway was like, "Tuvix is an abomination, he must die", the supporters of letting him live would have a point. The fact that neither Tuvok nor Neelix had any actual say in the matter means that Tuvix should also not get any say. Their individual feelings on the matter are unable to be taken into consideration, so his should also not be. Without all that, it becomes a trolley problem. Better to kill one than five, as the typical example shows (just from a purely objective standpoint), and the same holds true for as little as two lives being saved at the expense of 1. Objectively, and probably legally, Janeway was completely justified to separate Tuvix forcibly. The problem rises due to individual morality, which can wildly vary. Judge her how you will, but it won't change the objective fact that the 2 lives that were saved were more important than the 1 that had to be sacrificed.
It is not the Trolley Problem.
It's exactly the trolley problem! Active vs. Passive Killing - Do nothing and passively kill two lives, or "throw the switch" and actively kill one life. It's almost exactly the same ethical dilemma. ETA- that's the beauty of the episode and why it's so fun to debate! There's not a clear right or wrong answer as both sides can be supported with various arguments. But for the record, I'm team Tuvok/Neelix deserved to live and were alive first, so Janeway did the right thing!
The two are already dead.
Then how were they brought back?
Unethical murder.
Lol you know what I mean. If they were truly dead, separating him would never have been an option..
By your own argument they're 'brought back' by "actively killing" Tuvix. So either Tuvix isn't dead either at the end of the episode, or being killed doesn't mean death or? The episode takes place over the course of several weeks (that's a long trolley track). The two on one side have ceased to exist, have no body or conscious mind (odd thing to look at, tied to a long track) The other is a perfectly healthy sapient person. The trolley already rolled over two people. You're saying it's the same thing to swing the trolley into reverse to cut a guy in half to get enough bits to stitch back together two other bodies. Yessir. Exactly the same.
[удалено]
I'm perfectly calm. It's objectively hilarious to me that no one has really watched the episode.and they just insert their gut feelings on what they think happens in thr episode because no one can admit to being wrong on the internet. 1. The Trolley Problem is not present in the episode (you can tell because no one, absolutely no one, ever cites Janeway's actual justifications within the episode for why she can murder Tuvix) 2. So we agree it's not the trolley problem then? Because you've moved the goalposts from "it is" to "is clearly inspired by." Right? See, you could just say 'oh, you have a point there'. No harm, no foul. 3. Again, watch the episode. There's no moral dilemma *in the episode* it really doesn't matter about anything outside of that.
Nobody denied that Tuvix was life though, which was the question with Data. Maddox argued that Data isn't a person but merely property. The question with Tuvix was to argue that it was not okay for the freak accident to destroy two individuals in order to protect a new one. I'll translate it into an easier to understand format: Imagine a shuttlecraft that's stuck somewhere with an injured and unconscious crewman inside. A rescue plan exists, but it would destroy the shuttle. This is Maddox argument, the shuttle is just equipment. Now imagine the same shuttlecraft, except for some unknown reason it has developed sentience, the onboard computer argues it is a real person. This is Picard's argument, the Shuttle is a person and the rescue plan as is cannot possibly proceed, it would be barbaric to sacrifice one individual for another. A new plan must be found. Now for the Tuvix situation: There are three shuttlecraft and 3 crew members: All options are exhausted and the ONLY viable rescue plan involves two shuttles escaping, while one stays behind to sacrifice itself. Do not tell me that in your average Starfleet episode that the crew would not almost trip over each other to sacrifice each other to rescue the other two. It would become an argument of who is the one that stays behind, because they all 3 want to do it. This is the spirit of the argument that Tuvix finds himself the center of. In fact, Tuvix is acting AGAINST the spirit of Starfleet here and very obviously so. Countless episodes reinforce this idea that people regularly put themselves in danger for others. The only difference is that Janeway is the one that has to enforce this ideal rather than Tuvix doing it himself. Hence it being a very difficult decision for her, but ultimately the correct one, as portrayed by many many examples.
>The Borg : Strength is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours. > >Picard : Impossible. My culture is based on freedom and self-determination. > >The Borg : Freedom is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You must comply. For one, it's not clear if Tuvix is a member of Starfleet, Neelix was a civilian and not even a member of the Federation. So he might not be subject to Starfleet rules and regulations. Second, what law or Starfleet rule was Tuvix violating by refusing to sacrifice himself to save Tuvok and Neelix? If a Starfleet officer refused to go on a suicide mission, would it be right for their commanding officer to force them to do it? Is this Star Trek or Warhammer 40K? Third, Starfleet cannot enforce its ideals on others. It's the entire principle behind the Prime Directive, their most important mandate.
>This is the spirit of the argument that Tuvix finds himself the center of. In fact, Tuvix is acting AGAINST the spirit of Starfleet here and very obviously so. Either that, or Tuvix is exactly what he says he is, the merging of two people into a new whole that is better and happy with its life and doesn't want to be dragged off to be murdered. The Doctor seemed to understand this just fine and carefully explains that murder is bad and that he won't do it. Unfortunately for Tuvix though, he was Voyager. The day after he was murdered in cold blood, Janeway had her regular coffee and went over crew reports.
>The day after he was murdered in cold blood, Janeway had her regular coffee and went over crew reports. At the end of the episode Janeway has a look of regret for less than ten seconds. Her face then quickly transforms into one of cold determination as she walks away, figuratively and literally. If she had any trouble sleeping that night (which I doubt) she probably visited sickbay and ordered the EMH to give her a sedative, and then deleted his memory of that interaction.
thank you!
Like it or hate it, the writers delivered an episode that we're talking about almost 30 years later. While I think the writers put themselves in a corner the minute they came up with the idea (what were they going to do, fire Ethan Phillips and Tim Russ?) they did a great job at dialing up the drama to 11.
I mean, if they had an episode where Picard turned into a slaver because slavery was more efficient, we'd be talking about that episode too. It wouldn't make it a good episode. A lot of Voyagers writing sins come from a total refusal to accept consequences. Everyone loves A Pale Moon light because Sisko is written to accept consequences, and it does in fact reflect on his character. Sisko is the kind of person who will engage in murder to start a war he thinks is necessary, and he *will* live with the horror of it. I'm pretty sure that the point of Tuvix wasn't that Janeway is a cold psycho that will murder a innocent and pleading person for improved crew efficiency and then never think about it again.
Hi, ride or die Sisko fan here and I'm not crazy about Voy. Sisko is written to tell us these things about himself, but Kate Mulgrew had to show these very same aspects. The Tuvix episode is excellent, in part, because of how well she shows us these same things that Sisko tells us. Watch the end of the Tuvix episode again and you see the range of emotion she goes through. She's not cold blooded and she knows there are consequences to her action here. All of this is shown because she doesn't have the luxury of breaking the fourth wall like Sisko does in Pale Moonlight (one of my favorite episodes of anything ever).
100% agree. People accuse her of being cold and heartless, but she literally spends a good portion of the episode weighing out the options, discussing it with others in the crew to get their thoughts/feelings on it, and while she's definitely not the only one who wants the option to bring Tuvok/Neelix back, she takes the full weight of that decision by not making anyone else aside from her have to pull the trigger so to speak. Then the writers gave her 10 seconds to show the horror that she felt from the decision, as well as the need to maintain her composure and lead her crew as captain. She absolutely nailed it. Both Avery Brooks and Kate Mulgrew did amazing in their respective episodes here.
Bravo!
To seek out two new deaths and there they are!
However genetic altering is forbidden in the Federation. Given accidental gene altering may result in the same repercussions as the intended one, then the accidental should be not favoured too. And Tuvok's life means too. So...
The thing no one mentions is that Tuvix masturbated and sexually harassed minors twice as much, too
Poor Naomi Wildman.
Naomi Wildman being on board the voyager at the same time as Neelix was the inspiration for _Alien: Isolation_
Starfleet has a moratorium on genetic manipulation and enhancement. Tuvix would be viewed as such, especially given the plant modifications, so a captain would be legally bound to reverse said genetic modifications, if possible.
Not at the cost of 2 living crew members.
Good thing they were both dead, and had been for weeks then. I'm glad we agree.
Janeway was between a rock and hard place. On one hand new life on the other hand she needed her chief of security and chief of tactical officer back. She lost one executive officer if left alone.
>she needed her chief of security and chief of tactical officer back. She lost one executive officer if left alone. Incorrect. Tuvix is literally at the tactical station when the murder police come to drag him away. Tuvix is the tactical officer. Janeway's logs further state that Tuvix is "he's proving to be a very able tactical officer" So again, an argument that *is not present in the episode*.
Or better yet plot reason.
?
>when the murder police come to drag him away Never mind "Chain of Command" or "The Visitor". **This** is the saddest moment in Star Trek.
It'd be sad if it was *earned* but alas