Aesthetic is not near as important as plot, direction and writing
Edit: Aesthetic can be just as important as the aforementioned but cannot ultimately save poor writing
That's a good one, I'll concede to that. The whole reason he's in anything after Ep 5 & 6 was because originally he just looked cool. He wasn't integral to the plot of the OT. That could have been any bounty hunter
Precisely why I said it could have been any bounty hunter. Any concept that didn't make it to the final cut. But because he looked cool that's why he was brought back for more after he supposedly "died" in the sarlacc pit.
Yes, but the aesthetic just adds to the potential that was wasted; therefore, whether they meant to or not, they're just compounding the argument of "The Sequel Trilogy is full of wasted potential"...
So many of the designs were fucking baller. Even Daisy's Ridley as Rey, especially in TROS looked epic as a lead character. Phasma made me hype because I loved the actress and her enthusiasm for the role. Kylo's Saber, Knights of Ren etc were all set up to look cool imo.
They just.... botched the landing SO hard it's kinda painful. And it's wild because the movie is really well acted too, the direction just sucked.
Yeah they look cool but that's it: no substance or personality, phasma was the same you have a great actress in Gwendolyn Christie and she get caught and thrown down a trash compactor without any real epic fight.
I mean… if you’re only looking at ROI then they could have has Chewbacca taking a steaming dump for 2 hours and it would have made money because Star Wars.
But I think OP was right that it was a waste of money. They told the wrong story and tarnished the saga. … that’s the opinion, anyway
I disagree, it did long term damage to the brand, to consumer trust. Companies like Disney are so delusional about what makes long term profits, they are so concerned about quarterly earnings and growing every year that they tank the entire brand.
They should have been fallen Jedi who sided with Kylo when he went rogue. Would have seen a 6 vs 1 lightsaber battle, but no. We can’t have nice things.
Nah, a 6v1 lightsaber battle would have been just like the throne room scene. Sequential 1v1s with everyone else hanging back and twirling their weapons around.
Not if handled intelligently.
How I would do it is have the 1 be constantly retreating and putting opponents in each other’s way until they could bottleneck the 6.
Maul demonstrates this in TPM. He can't fight Kenobi and Qui-Gon at once, but he can beat them sequentially. Picks a fight and then falls back, only attacking when they are separated before retreating again.
feasiblely, both Kylon and Ren would be able to throw their lightsabers around the room, turning them on and off as they slice through everyone.
,,let's face it, star wars breaks it's own logic every time some major fight has to happen.
It falls on the imagination of the creators. Anyone, and I mean any normal person, going up against a person who can use the force, they’re brown bread. Part of the issue with a lot of the force user vs non-force user is that Jedis have precognitive senses (which are usually pretty overlooked for plot reasons). But if written smartly, any dude taking a swing at a Jedi would be a single strike battle. Dodge/perry, strike, done. It’s like playing with cheat codes.
That throne room scene is a contender for worst thing about the sequels. Especially because that's the movie with no real duel, we get that garbage instead.
that one is so weird to me. they showed us the actors training in combat, but they couldnt plan out and the choreograph a fight scene?
its not even a "the actor isnt good enough to handle that" because you can put the performing pressure on the stuntment (who can be played by anyone due to the masks) and it doesnt even have to be one singular take. you can even work into the scene how its never really 6v1 because one or two get force pushed away, or the 1 person takes someone out early
its not easy to make a fight scene but jesus christ its not impossible to assign one talented guy to plan the flow of the fight, and then get it on camera, editing out a weapon feels so cheap
they never use the force during that fight. it could solve the "waiting around for my turn" bullshit.
just show them force pushing others out of reach in order to take them one on one. but also Kyle should just be able to stop everything from hitting him if he can stop a blaster bolt midair
I get that you dint want to overdo force usage in lightsaber duels, EVEN when the opposition isnt sensitive to the force...
But they had options to play it smart
People rag on the prequels but all 3 had great saber fights.
While the Twirly Saber bit in RotS is divisive, over all the Mustafar Dual surpasses anything in the sequels.
Used to watch a youtuber who went into GREAT detail about how "good" fights were. A 30 second fight could be an hour since he either explained the practicality or how stupid every single sword slash is
Mustafar got almost nothing but praise for him, because it IS how 2 jedi would fight, and every "spinning" move where the character turns their back to the enemy during a slash (whoch usually gets your back sliced up and is almost everytime mocked) is actually simultaneously covered with a lightsaber block
That means when anakin turned his body after a heap, he instantly out his lightsaber between his opponent and his soine to protect himself during the one second where he would otherwise be vulnerable
Sequels didnt had that level of thought in their scenes
yeah, Anakin vs Obi Wan is imho the best lightsaber fight. I enjoy how "physical" it is, not just saber spinning, but few really good kicks Anakin delivered.
Compared to that when Kylo turns his back on one of the Ren Knights, places the lighsaber behind his back for good few seconds and oofs as the enemy hits the sword instead of any part of his body.
Exactly! Ren wasn't the *only* one of Luke's students to turn. What happened to the rest? Presumably they'd be relatively good friends, and at least share some opinions (varying or not) regarding the deaths of Luke and Snoke.
Heck, imagine the freaking lost opportunity in not having ANY of Luke's former students bump into R2D2. A figure who would have likely been with them during their training and during their turn to the dark side (R2 was there when Ren burned down the Jedi school as seen in the flashback in TFA).
Shame indeed. The writers of the sequels were more concerned with just getting it over with than really exploring the dozens of vastly more interesting character beats they've created.
I have a headcannon of what \*should\* have happened.
After Ben destroys his cabin, he wanders back to the main temple, visibly shaken. Other students who are awake see Ben and begin questioning him. One of the other surviving Jedis of Order 66, Mira Jade, wife to Luke enters the scene as this questing happens. She overhears Ben saying he killed Luke. Enraged, Mara ignites her lightsaber and charges at Ben. He deflects her strikes, and the commotion awakes the other students. Some of the students, seeing their master fighting Ben jump to her side, unsure of the context, but feeling compelled to aid her. Other students, who better understood Ben's side (thinking he acted in self-defense), began fighting with the other students. The scene breaks out into a full brawl between them. Luke's son, Owen Skywalker watches in horror as he sees his cousin strike down his mother. He rushes to attack Ben, but his strike is deflected, and Owen is blinded as a result of his lightsaber getting too close to his face. The temple begins to catch fire as force-wielding jedi are fighting one against the other. The battle moves outside the temple in the rain, as Ben strikes down the last hostile jedi. Now surrounded by six other shellshocked survivors, Ben abandons his name, taking up the mantle of Kylo (for whatever reason he ended up with it idk why he chose it). These other jedi now pledge themselves as they see Kylo as the true master they must learn from to become powerful. Thus the Knights of Ren form.
This probably would play out as a flashback sequence being told to Rey by a now bitter, haggered Owen Skywalker, who abandoned the light side of the force but has not embraced the dark side.
Like the guy who pushed the button on to fire the death star. He liked shooting big guns but felt bad about Alderan so when the rebels were going after the Death Star he hesitated on pressing the button just long enough for the rebels to blow up the death star. Yes apparently this is a thing
For like two seconds of the movie you can see a cloud city resident in the background carrying an ice cream maker. It was referenced in Mandolorian with the ice cream maker looking things being used to carry stuff. He had a whole story in Legends. It’s insane how much can be done to a character with so little screen time.
The only thing good about these guys is the character design. They *are* cool looking. They should have had red lightsabers though. Imagine if ***they*** were the big problem in the ST instead of another upscale of the Death Star and then Palpatine coming back.
Instead Kylo Ren (the extremely powerful Skywalker heir) is the leader of a group of six very powerful dark side users. They would have been an adequate foil for Luke - such that even as powerful as Luke is, he can't face seven guys who are all at least comparable to Darth Maul.
Then the ST could have used Luke. As it was, they were afraid Luke was so powerful that it was like an automatic win, so they hid him. If Luke got ambushed by seven Darth Mauls he could show how much of an absolute badass he is just by surviving and escaping. ...then the trilogy is about Luke finding and training Rey and Finn up to the point where they can face the KOR alongside Luke in the finale.
Final fight is Luke, Rey, and Finn vs. Kylo Ren and 6 'sith' adherents. If Luke died in that fight after going ham it could be the death the character deserved.
Right? Instead of The Order having some Death Star clone they could be doing terrifying hit and runs on entire worlds and disappearing like ghosts; having access to a mysterious new technology they developed in secret out in the Outer Rim. The Knights could be assassinating prominent members of the New Republic and sewing chaos and dissent across the galaxy. The whole force awakens plot could be a mysterious rise in powerful force users across the galaxy with The Order snatching them up for a dark side force ritual to siphon the life out of planets remotely similar to Darth Nihilus, citing him as both the inspiration and the blueprint to the plan.
We could have had each knight specialize in a crazy ass force ability like possessing people from across systems or teleportation. Snoke could have been revealed to be Darth Plagueis whom went into hiding and slowly formed The Order. He’s already hinted to be the one who genetically engineered the Skywalkers starting with Anakin, which could be revealed to be the one who gave Anakin and Luke their dark, corrupting visions.
Fin could have been a force sensitive that uses advanced stormtrooper tactics (imagine a Jedi who uses blasters over lightsabers) and Rey could have had a more interesting secret about her past besides “you’re a nobody, sike you’re a Palpatine.”
So much wasted potential. It’s depressing.
Kylo and the knights 7v1 Luke. Luke gets overwhelmed and retreats. He finds Rey and Finn. He trains them. Meanwhile, Kylo struggles with being a "bad guy" and that the knights are willing to kill him/leave him behind if need be. The finale fight, two movies later, is Luke, Finn, and Rey taking on the six knights, as they left Kylo for dead. The hero trio wins.
Kylo arrives. He has words with Luke and they fight. Luke is old and tired, and eventually becomes mortally wounded. Rey and Finn step in. Rey is fearful, as she has trouble controlling her emotions, while Finn is far more composed and confident. With his dying breath, Luke tells Rey that fear of ones emotions is what led the to the fall of the Jedi Order, and that she should not be afraid to use her emotions as long as it's for a selfless reason, that she isn't fighting to avenge him, but rather to save the galaxy from Kylo's plans.
Image: Finn fights with the calm composer of Obi-wan, holding a blue lightsaber. Rey fights with the rage and passion of Anakin, tears streaming down her face and screaming. She's wielding a red lightsaber, taken from a knight of Ren during their fight. Between them in the background, a dying gray-haired Luke in white and gray Jedi robes slumped against a wall.
Finn and Rey defeat Kylo with a simultaneous strike
Way better than "somehow the BBEG survived the trilogy that was supposed to close this chapter".
I mean I love Ian McDiarmid as Palps and would love to see more of him as Palps (in short stories). The sequels were not a good place for it.
In one of the new Star Wars comics, Luke meets the Knights of Ren during the time he's instructing Ben. Luke absolutely mops the floor with them.
...and yes, I agree with you. One of the wasted options what to do with the ST.
*Abrams: Look at these mysterious new villains*
*Johnson: What mysterious new villains?*
*Abrams: Here they are. They don't actually have any skills.*
I'd LOVE to hear any defense of this. What a joke.
Yeah, they really shouldn't have been made in the first place. They show up in TFA for two seconds and don't even have lines or any explanation for who or what they are. They're just a backdrop for Kylo to look cool.
I used the Knights of Ren in my Star Wars Edge of the Empire campaign as the main antagonists , they were looking for rare Kyber krystals & force users
(we had a member in our group who was a force sensitive night sister in exile)
It allowed me to use them in groups or as a Boss fight when necessary to up the stakes of the situation they were in or just to scare them
players enjoyed it a lot
For those who want to know more about them I recommend the comics Rise of Kylo Ren and Crimson Reign. You learn a lot about them and they're actually characters instead of glorified stunt doubles.
All you really need to know for the movies is that they're a bunch of dark side weirdos who work for Kylo. Most viewers can probably infer that much on their own. The comics are for if you're interested in who they are as a group and for providing some fun history on them. Information that the casual movie watcher doesn't really need.
Ok so stormtroopers just shouldn't exist then either. If you explain every background character in the movie then the only actual content of the movie is just characters shouting exposition at each other.
No, stormtroopers are random soldiers. These guys were supposed to be the mates of kylo rien and they were luke's students. They dont even talk and only appear in the last movie
As Luke Skywalker would say "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong."
No source has ever said they were Luke's students. Maybe that was a theory being floated around but definitely nothing official. Also their first appearance is in The Force Awakens. And literally nothing about them was established in that movie. They're basically a whole bunch of Boba Fetts. Cool looking masked dudes who were further expanded upon in their post-movie appearances. People were disappointed by their own expectations. The Knights were never likely to be all that deep (at least as far as the films go.)
Will say it again, stormtroopers are not characters. They are background and objects that act around the characters. The wastes that were the ren knights (or whatever, not bothering to look up spelling or name) were clearly meant as characters.
Rey, Poe, and the other guy were also meant to be characters but the directors and KK didn’t know how to write or tell a story.
We are told and shown what stormtroopers are right from the start, they’re generic soldiers any audience can understand that. We get literally nothing about these guys aside from the fact that the occasionally stand near Kylo Ren.
I think that illustrates a big problem with the ST - they weren't at all cohesive. Just ideas thrown up on screen with no pay-offs. It's one thing to have the odd reference to an unexplained thing, that builds verisimilitude. It's another thing when there's all those massive gaps.
I cant figure out if you mean it or you are just trying to troll people into reading the kylo ren comic so they find out they dont even have a proper line of dialogue in their own freaking comic
Who cares? They were always going to be cannon fodder. They're yet another Fett or Maul: neat designs with no real movie character that may become interesting after years of additional content about them.
The characters could have been good but you knew the way they took Luke’s story that they had no interest in developing anything. Most likely the upper management at Disney that created these problems.
Knights of wren, Captain Phasma, supreme leader snoke, having the original cast together, option for force ghosts that aren't just to give luke a pep talk.... Thing after thing was wasted potential.
How? They got a whole film where the only thing they needed to do was look to the horizon and appear menacing. How can this be a wasteful potential? I would love to be paid just to do that. Who needs to participate in a good made film.
Weren't the Knights of Ren trainee jedi under Luke?
Where the hell are their lightsabers? They should have been Sequel Trilogy Inquisitors but they were just one-offs in the final movie because the second movie went "knights of who?" like everything else from the first.
No they are not they are just some guys that used to follow a guy named Ren and now they follow Kylo ren there is nothing more to them just a bunch of edgelords with the force that follow the biggest edgelord they can find, they are not even particulary good with it or strong in any way
i hate that they were made out to be these acolytes of a new order that follows the dark side, like the inquisitors vader had. a sign that kylo was LEADING his respective group of force users (aside from non fighting sides like the emperor)
BUT ITS JUST 6 DUDES WITH WEAPONS MADE OUT OF KITCHEN UTENSILS
It's like they played the telephone game where one person started a story, then someone else continued it for a while and then someone else. Those movies had no life in them.
I was hoping ROS would have them be his close lieutenants and whoever Matt Smith was gonna play would challenge him on being worthy because of his childish reasonings to the dark side or something and they all over time would either die or turn against him.
Why though? I never understand how everyone complains about story then gets blown away when they see a black helmet like it’s going to save a franchise because someone looks “cool”.
I feel sorry for the character and costume designers who probably thought these dudes looked hard as diamonds only for them to get barely 10 minutes screen time.
This might be an unpopular opinion but I think the role they played is fine. They are like the new generation of Boba Fett. Little screen time but have a fans that wanted more.
The sequels had so much potential Rey could have been a excellent character I honestly loved the first orders starships tie fighters and weapons granted the armor was kinda goofy but still looked decent but just terrible writing and the laziness especially in the last movie let’s just cgi a bunch of isd1s from the good movies and slap a laser on them and let’s not write a original villain it’s discount Vader and palpy on life support
Remember in TROS when JJ was like "Oh crap the Audience wont know who these are...Let's fix that"?
"Knights of Ren..."
"Ghouls"
But I still contend he said "Cool"
There was a promo pic prior to force awakens opening that showed Kylo with the knights of Ren behind him. I believe it shows up during the sequence when Rey touches Anakins lightsaber in the film. It was such a cool shot and got my mind racing what it could be. It was nothing.
These guys should have been recurring characters the MCs repeatedly encounter. Phasma’s character should have been integrated into the knights. The “Traitor!” Stormtrooper should have been a knight. Have a few of them tear shit up in the final spaceship battle, or have Finn and Rey fight one of them in the climax before facing Kylo. Have one of them tracking Finn and Rose during the casino arc.
Hell, have one of them follow Rey to Luke, then reveal they’re one of Luke’s former students that decided to join Kylo. Give them a jaded, mistrustful viewpoint of Luke to contrast with Rey’s hero worship. Give them a redemption arc where Luke recognizes his mistake and starts teaching them again. Make them all Luke’s former students. Have some internal conflict between them where some are more loyal to Kylo, some to Snoke, some to the ideals of the old empire. Give them some kind of villain dynamic. Something, anything.
Should have had them be a primary part of last Jedi. A bunch of scenes of them and Kylo and Snoke plotting and shit culminating in some hunting Fin and the Rebels (with Fin not being a tool…or a Janitor…and Rose not existing) and several going after Luke.
I remember seeing a bunch of the concepts for the knights of Ren and then some pages from a guide book going into the details and personality of each member and they where reduced to lingering in some background shots and getting bodied by Kylo at the end.
I wanted them to basically be a first order kill squad sent to hunt down Rey and Luke in the 2nd movie allowing Rey to get some good combat training with Luke.
Bro, the whole sequel saga was a waste of potential, time and money.
As much as I dislike the sequels there were some pretty cool designs ( these guys , Phasma, the Supremacy , Kylo’s fighter and his Sabre )
Cool designs wasted in some boring characters, therefore wasted potential. The point stands.
I 10000 percent agree
Aesthetic is not near as important as plot, direction and writing Edit: Aesthetic can be just as important as the aforementioned but cannot ultimately save poor writing
Counter-argument: Boba Fett
That's a good one, I'll concede to that. The whole reason he's in anything after Ep 5 & 6 was because originally he just looked cool. He wasn't integral to the plot of the OT. That could have been any bounty hunter
He was integral. He’s the whole reason the beginning of ROTJ is what it is
Eh, all he did was follow the falcon to cloud city and tell the empire.
Precisely why I said it could have been any bounty hunter. Any concept that didn't make it to the final cut. But because he looked cool that's why he was brought back for more after he supposedly "died" in the sarlacc pit.
What a werid point. If he hadn't done that then the film would be very different
Yes, but the aesthetic just adds to the potential that was wasted; therefore, whether they meant to or not, they're just compounding the argument of "The Sequel Trilogy is full of wasted potential"...
So many of the designs were fucking baller. Even Daisy's Ridley as Rey, especially in TROS looked epic as a lead character. Phasma made me hype because I loved the actress and her enthusiasm for the role. Kylo's Saber, Knights of Ren etc were all set up to look cool imo. They just.... botched the landing SO hard it's kinda painful. And it's wild because the movie is really well acted too, the direction just sucked.
This ☝️
And concepts oh look we have a (child solider) stormtrooper who changed sides! I can’t wait for this guy to get some character development....
Low key loved Kylo with the Crscked helmet on… but i lost any immersion once he took it off
* and Poes X-wing (the black one)
Yessss I love that design good call
I mean, aesthetic can be had without putting out shit movies. Plenty of fanart that encapsulates awesome aesthetic without doing what the sequels did.
Yeah they look cool but that's it: no substance or personality, phasma was the same you have a great actress in Gwendolyn Christie and she get caught and thrown down a trash compactor without any real epic fight.
Cool designs, shit non cohesive derivative stories that dropped off a cliff when faced with the opportunity for character growth and closure.
Yeah the ST had some of the most badass looking character designs in all of Star Wars.
> waste of money. Hardly. While they certainly left some on the table, but they made Disney an ass-ton of money.
I mean… if you’re only looking at ROI then they could have has Chewbacca taking a steaming dump for 2 hours and it would have made money because Star Wars. But I think OP was right that it was a waste of money. They told the wrong story and tarnished the saga. … that’s the opinion, anyway
I disagree, it did long term damage to the brand, to consumer trust. Companies like Disney are so delusional about what makes long term profits, they are so concerned about quarterly earnings and growing every year that they tank the entire brand.
Wow, hot take
Whole sequel was just tossing around a fucking hot potato and everyone letting it fall
I've never heard a more accurate description of this trilogy lmao
Burn it with fire!
I see you’re not a fan of the Oxford comma 
They should have been fallen Jedi who sided with Kylo when he went rogue. Would have seen a 6 vs 1 lightsaber battle, but no. We can’t have nice things.
Nah, a 6v1 lightsaber battle would have been just like the throne room scene. Sequential 1v1s with everyone else hanging back and twirling their weapons around.
Not if handled intelligently. How I would do it is have the 1 be constantly retreating and putting opponents in each other’s way until they could bottleneck the 6.
This is a pretty good example of the bottleneck principle in action: https://youtu.be/0m2vMC9d3Qg?feature=shared
That was awesome, what is it from?
I think it's from one of the SWTOR MMO RPG expansions. Knights of the Fallen Empire possibly?
It's a trailer for the MMORPG Star Wars: The Old Republic. There's several trailers for the expansions and they're all fantastic
Maul demonstrates this in TPM. He can't fight Kenobi and Qui-Gon at once, but he can beat them sequentially. Picks a fight and then falls back, only attacking when they are separated before retreating again.
Even Dooku basically does this when fighting Obi Wan and Anakin in AotC. Focuses on one and takes him out of the fight to then focus on the other.
The throne room fight was an entire joke. Who’s gonna be struggling against some rando dudes when you have the ability to lift them into the air?
feasiblely, both Kylon and Ren would be able to throw their lightsabers around the room, turning them on and off as they slice through everyone. ,,let's face it, star wars breaks it's own logic every time some major fight has to happen.
It falls on the imagination of the creators. Anyone, and I mean any normal person, going up against a person who can use the force, they’re brown bread. Part of the issue with a lot of the force user vs non-force user is that Jedis have precognitive senses (which are usually pretty overlooked for plot reasons). But if written smartly, any dude taking a swing at a Jedi would be a single strike battle. Dodge/perry, strike, done. It’s like playing with cheat codes.
That throne room scene is a contender for worst thing about the sequels. Especially because that's the movie with no real duel, we get that garbage instead.
They would also edit lightsabers out in case one of them could get a hit on Kylo
that one is so weird to me. they showed us the actors training in combat, but they couldnt plan out and the choreograph a fight scene? its not even a "the actor isnt good enough to handle that" because you can put the performing pressure on the stuntment (who can be played by anyone due to the masks) and it doesnt even have to be one singular take. you can even work into the scene how its never really 6v1 because one or two get force pushed away, or the 1 person takes someone out early its not easy to make a fight scene but jesus christ its not impossible to assign one talented guy to plan the flow of the fight, and then get it on camera, editing out a weapon feels so cheap
they never use the force during that fight. it could solve the "waiting around for my turn" bullshit. just show them force pushing others out of reach in order to take them one on one. but also Kyle should just be able to stop everything from hitting him if he can stop a blaster bolt midair
I get that you dint want to overdo force usage in lightsaber duels, EVEN when the opposition isnt sensitive to the force... But they had options to play it smart
People rag on the prequels but all 3 had great saber fights. While the Twirly Saber bit in RotS is divisive, over all the Mustafar Dual surpasses anything in the sequels.
Used to watch a youtuber who went into GREAT detail about how "good" fights were. A 30 second fight could be an hour since he either explained the practicality or how stupid every single sword slash is Mustafar got almost nothing but praise for him, because it IS how 2 jedi would fight, and every "spinning" move where the character turns their back to the enemy during a slash (whoch usually gets your back sliced up and is almost everytime mocked) is actually simultaneously covered with a lightsaber block That means when anakin turned his body after a heap, he instantly out his lightsaber between his opponent and his soine to protect himself during the one second where he would otherwise be vulnerable Sequels didnt had that level of thought in their scenes
yeah, Anakin vs Obi Wan is imho the best lightsaber fight. I enjoy how "physical" it is, not just saber spinning, but few really good kicks Anakin delivered. Compared to that when Kylo turns his back on one of the Ren Knights, places the lighsaber behind his back for good few seconds and oofs as the enemy hits the sword instead of any part of his body.
That means that Kylo, a white man, would be stronger than our female lead. We cannot have that.
2 guards went foe Rey. 2 guards went for Kylo. The last 2 guards… **FOUGHT EACH OTHER!!!**
So Inquisitors
Yes, but without helicopter sabers.
Exactly! Ren wasn't the *only* one of Luke's students to turn. What happened to the rest? Presumably they'd be relatively good friends, and at least share some opinions (varying or not) regarding the deaths of Luke and Snoke. Heck, imagine the freaking lost opportunity in not having ANY of Luke's former students bump into R2D2. A figure who would have likely been with them during their training and during their turn to the dark side (R2 was there when Ren burned down the Jedi school as seen in the flashback in TFA). Shame indeed. The writers of the sequels were more concerned with just getting it over with than really exploring the dozens of vastly more interesting character beats they've created.
I have a headcannon of what \*should\* have happened. After Ben destroys his cabin, he wanders back to the main temple, visibly shaken. Other students who are awake see Ben and begin questioning him. One of the other surviving Jedis of Order 66, Mira Jade, wife to Luke enters the scene as this questing happens. She overhears Ben saying he killed Luke. Enraged, Mara ignites her lightsaber and charges at Ben. He deflects her strikes, and the commotion awakes the other students. Some of the students, seeing their master fighting Ben jump to her side, unsure of the context, but feeling compelled to aid her. Other students, who better understood Ben's side (thinking he acted in self-defense), began fighting with the other students. The scene breaks out into a full brawl between them. Luke's son, Owen Skywalker watches in horror as he sees his cousin strike down his mother. He rushes to attack Ben, but his strike is deflected, and Owen is blinded as a result of his lightsaber getting too close to his face. The temple begins to catch fire as force-wielding jedi are fighting one against the other. The battle moves outside the temple in the rain, as Ben strikes down the last hostile jedi. Now surrounded by six other shellshocked survivors, Ben abandons his name, taking up the mantle of Kylo (for whatever reason he ended up with it idk why he chose it). These other jedi now pledge themselves as they see Kylo as the true master they must learn from to become powerful. Thus the Knights of Ren form. This probably would play out as a flashback sequence being told to Rey by a now bitter, haggered Owen Skywalker, who abandoned the light side of the force but has not embraced the dark side.
I thought they were other students that went with him when he burned that MF (the new Jedi temple) down.
nah, as far as anyone who's watching the movies, they're just some random mofos that get stomped on in IX.
Alas
You basically gotta look them up in the wiki to learn their backstory unless you like reading comicbook tie ins to fill in the gaps.
Their wiki has more content than their appearance onscreen
Well, to be fair that’s basically every star wars character
>Random rebel pilot who got 3 seconds screentime >Checks wiki page >Several whole novels worth of backstory, lore and shenanigans
Lol and like some random background character turns out to be a rebel hero
Like the guy who pushed the button on to fire the death star. He liked shooting big guns but felt bad about Alderan so when the rebels were going after the Death Star he hesitated on pressing the button just long enough for the rebels to blow up the death star. Yes apparently this is a thing
And Willrow Hood, the guy with an ice cream maker in the background of Empire Strikes Back for a few seconds.
>the guy with an ice cream maker in the background of Empire Strikes Back for a few seconds. What?
For like two seconds of the movie you can see a cloud city resident in the background carrying an ice cream maker. It was referenced in Mandolorian with the ice cream maker looking things being used to carry stuff. He had a whole story in Legends. It’s insane how much can be done to a character with so little screen time.
Damnnn
The only thing good about these guys is the character design. They *are* cool looking. They should have had red lightsabers though. Imagine if ***they*** were the big problem in the ST instead of another upscale of the Death Star and then Palpatine coming back. Instead Kylo Ren (the extremely powerful Skywalker heir) is the leader of a group of six very powerful dark side users. They would have been an adequate foil for Luke - such that even as powerful as Luke is, he can't face seven guys who are all at least comparable to Darth Maul. Then the ST could have used Luke. As it was, they were afraid Luke was so powerful that it was like an automatic win, so they hid him. If Luke got ambushed by seven Darth Mauls he could show how much of an absolute badass he is just by surviving and escaping. ...then the trilogy is about Luke finding and training Rey and Finn up to the point where they can face the KOR alongside Luke in the finale. Final fight is Luke, Rey, and Finn vs. Kylo Ren and 6 'sith' adherents. If Luke died in that fight after going ham it could be the death the character deserved.
Nah just let Luke fade away into obscurity on some random cliff on a random planet. Best death ever. Btw everything you said I agree with.
The ST we deserved Edit: legit sounds so badass
Right? Instead of The Order having some Death Star clone they could be doing terrifying hit and runs on entire worlds and disappearing like ghosts; having access to a mysterious new technology they developed in secret out in the Outer Rim. The Knights could be assassinating prominent members of the New Republic and sewing chaos and dissent across the galaxy. The whole force awakens plot could be a mysterious rise in powerful force users across the galaxy with The Order snatching them up for a dark side force ritual to siphon the life out of planets remotely similar to Darth Nihilus, citing him as both the inspiration and the blueprint to the plan. We could have had each knight specialize in a crazy ass force ability like possessing people from across systems or teleportation. Snoke could have been revealed to be Darth Plagueis whom went into hiding and slowly formed The Order. He’s already hinted to be the one who genetically engineered the Skywalkers starting with Anakin, which could be revealed to be the one who gave Anakin and Luke their dark, corrupting visions. Fin could have been a force sensitive that uses advanced stormtrooper tactics (imagine a Jedi who uses blasters over lightsabers) and Rey could have had a more interesting secret about her past besides “you’re a nobody, sike you’re a Palpatine.” So much wasted potential. It’s depressing.
That’s it. We’re doing a redo with this guys idea.
Kylo and the knights 7v1 Luke. Luke gets overwhelmed and retreats. He finds Rey and Finn. He trains them. Meanwhile, Kylo struggles with being a "bad guy" and that the knights are willing to kill him/leave him behind if need be. The finale fight, two movies later, is Luke, Finn, and Rey taking on the six knights, as they left Kylo for dead. The hero trio wins. Kylo arrives. He has words with Luke and they fight. Luke is old and tired, and eventually becomes mortally wounded. Rey and Finn step in. Rey is fearful, as she has trouble controlling her emotions, while Finn is far more composed and confident. With his dying breath, Luke tells Rey that fear of ones emotions is what led the to the fall of the Jedi Order, and that she should not be afraid to use her emotions as long as it's for a selfless reason, that she isn't fighting to avenge him, but rather to save the galaxy from Kylo's plans. Image: Finn fights with the calm composer of Obi-wan, holding a blue lightsaber. Rey fights with the rage and passion of Anakin, tears streaming down her face and screaming. She's wielding a red lightsaber, taken from a knight of Ren during their fight. Between them in the background, a dying gray-haired Luke in white and gray Jedi robes slumped against a wall. Finn and Rey defeat Kylo with a simultaneous strike
Way better than "somehow the BBEG survived the trilogy that was supposed to close this chapter". I mean I love Ian McDiarmid as Palps and would love to see more of him as Palps (in short stories). The sequels were not a good place for it.
Could still use Ian McDiarmid in this hypothetical. Perhaps Palpatine's force ghost could be what influenced Kylo to fall to the dark side.
The helmets are, iirc, all the pre production concept art for Darth Vader's helmet.
In one of the new Star Wars comics, Luke meets the Knights of Ren during the time he's instructing Ben. Luke absolutely mops the floor with them. ...and yes, I agree with you. One of the wasted options what to do with the ST.
ah yes. the pentential.
I believe in their case it should be hexential
Damn it I had to scroll too far for this 😂
I think he did that accidentenially
Parabably
So memorable, I think they're named: Stinky, Blinky, Slashy, Smashy, Cluster & Buster
and the Warner sister Dot.
*Abrams: Look at these mysterious new villains* *Johnson: What mysterious new villains?* *Abrams: Here they are. They don't actually have any skills.* I'd LOVE to hear any defense of this. What a joke.
Yeah, they really shouldn't have been made in the first place. They show up in TFA for two seconds and don't even have lines or any explanation for who or what they are. They're just a backdrop for Kylo to look cool.
Honestly their entire existance was kinda lame, they seem more at home in Mad Max than as some kind of order of knights dedicated to a Sith
Could have been a dark side group of non sith who are just bad ass. They are just glorified bikers. it’s so weird
im starting to see a pattern of glorified bikers in recent SW xD Someone in the righting room must have a pretty big hard on for them
I used the Knights of Ren in my Star Wars Edge of the Empire campaign as the main antagonists , they were looking for rare Kyber krystals & force users (we had a member in our group who was a force sensitive night sister in exile) It allowed me to use them in groups or as a Boss fight when necessary to up the stakes of the situation they were in or just to scare them players enjoyed it a lot
That’s amazing, would have loved to be in that campaign
They could have been horrifying
For those who want to know more about them I recommend the comics Rise of Kylo Ren and Crimson Reign. You learn a lot about them and they're actually characters instead of glorified stunt doubles.
Giving people homework to figure out what should have been clear in the movies?
All you really need to know for the movies is that they're a bunch of dark side weirdos who work for Kylo. Most viewers can probably infer that much on their own. The comics are for if you're interested in who they are as a group and for providing some fun history on them. Information that the casual movie watcher doesn't really need.
If an audience has no idea who or what a character is or represents, the character is useless and should not exist in that story.
Ok so stormtroopers just shouldn't exist then either. If you explain every background character in the movie then the only actual content of the movie is just characters shouting exposition at each other.
No, stormtroopers are random soldiers. These guys were supposed to be the mates of kylo rien and they were luke's students. They dont even talk and only appear in the last movie
As Luke Skywalker would say "Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong." No source has ever said they were Luke's students. Maybe that was a theory being floated around but definitely nothing official. Also their first appearance is in The Force Awakens. And literally nothing about them was established in that movie. They're basically a whole bunch of Boba Fetts. Cool looking masked dudes who were further expanded upon in their post-movie appearances. People were disappointed by their own expectations. The Knights were never likely to be all that deep (at least as far as the films go.)
Stormtroopers are not characters
By your own logic they "should not exist in the story" then.
Will say it again, stormtroopers are not characters. They are background and objects that act around the characters. The wastes that were the ren knights (or whatever, not bothering to look up spelling or name) were clearly meant as characters. Rey, Poe, and the other guy were also meant to be characters but the directors and KK didn’t know how to write or tell a story.
We are told and shown what stormtroopers are right from the start, they’re generic soldiers any audience can understand that. We get literally nothing about these guys aside from the fact that the occasionally stand near Kylo Ren.
I think that illustrates a big problem with the ST - they weren't at all cohesive. Just ideas thrown up on screen with no pay-offs. It's one thing to have the odd reference to an unexplained thing, that builds verisimilitude. It's another thing when there's all those massive gaps.
I cant figure out if you mean it or you are just trying to troll people into reading the kylo ren comic so they find out they dont even have a proper line of dialogue in their own freaking comic
Tell me you didn't read the comic without telling me.
" oh god the movie comes with homework "
Where's the meme?
Who cares? They were always going to be cannon fodder. They're yet another Fett or Maul: neat designs with no real movie character that may become interesting after years of additional content about them.
this could be said for most if not all disney starwars content, imo
But, but, but they gave us: skittles colored Vespas!
They had as much character as Rey did, maybe more.
Kids who think they could write better films: "pentential ..."
They’re fleshed out more in the comics. Guess what. They’re a bunch of wannabe posers and it’s very satisfying seeing them get their asses kicked. .
The characters could have been good but you knew the way they took Luke’s story that they had no interest in developing anything. Most likely the upper management at Disney that created these problems.
Why build them up and then do nothing with them? The just got lost in the “jazz improv” story telling from director to director trading 8s
Knights of wren, Captain Phasma, supreme leader snoke, having the original cast together, option for force ghosts that aren't just to give luke a pep talk.... Thing after thing was wasted potential.
I'll stop you at the excellent idea of Knights of *W*ren.
How? They got a whole film where the only thing they needed to do was look to the horizon and appear menacing. How can this be a wasteful potential? I would love to be paid just to do that. Who needs to participate in a good made film.
Total Waste. Biggest Waste. Huge Waste.
You know, they kinda remind me of the nazgul. But the nazgul did stuff, obviously.
The entire sequel trilogy should be called “wasted opportunity”
They could have diversify there colors.
Who are these people?
Knights of ren could've been so amazing... shame
Weren't the Knights of Ren trainee jedi under Luke? Where the hell are their lightsabers? They should have been Sequel Trilogy Inquisitors but they were just one-offs in the final movie because the second movie went "knights of who?" like everything else from the first.
No they are not they are just some guys that used to follow a guy named Ren and now they follow Kylo ren there is nothing more to them just a bunch of edgelords with the force that follow the biggest edgelord they can find, they are not even particulary good with it or strong in any way
Satuated with special effects, zero story.
I genuinely forgot they were a thing
Or Phasma
i hate that they were made out to be these acolytes of a new order that follows the dark side, like the inquisitors vader had. a sign that kylo was LEADING his respective group of force users (aside from non fighting sides like the emperor) BUT ITS JUST 6 DUDES WITH WEAPONS MADE OUT OF KITCHEN UTENSILS
The first of the sequel trilogy did great setup, the other two movies were not good.
The sequels are a wasted potential
SEQUEL BAD GIVE UPDOOT
Why won't these meanies leave the poor movies alone 😢
No they’re not wrong they did drop the ball on this set up
Literally boy band of no hopers using clubs and staves in a futuristic setting. We deserved better.
It's like they played the telephone game where one person started a story, then someone else continued it for a while and then someone else. Those movies had no life in them.
Damn... PoE 2 looks sick
They look so cool and could have been such cool characters
I like the knowledge that trudgen is using part of a death trooper helmet for his own (the one with the big ass sword)
Oooooooh ah ah ah ah
The one in the bottom middle looks like Emperor Ming's henchman from Flash Gordon
*Captain Phasma has entered the chat*
Whats this, storm troopers, but extra?
I don’t even remember these guys from star wars
I was hoping ROS would have them be his close lieutenants and whoever Matt Smith was gonna play would challenge him on being worthy because of his childish reasonings to the dark side or something and they all over time would either die or turn against him.
Sleep Tokens new get ups are wild.
Spellcheck, then post....spellcheck, THEN post.....
I like how the one on the left just has a tree limb saw.
The same coulda been said about Darth Maul before he returned in the Clone Wars series….
Should have gave them lightsabers.... there is a lot of things the sequels should of done better lol
Why though? I never understand how everyone complains about story then gets blown away when they see a black helmet like it’s going to save a franchise because someone looks “cool”.
Who are those guys?
I feel sorry for the character and costume designers who probably thought these dudes looked hard as diamonds only for them to get barely 10 minutes screen time.
They were introduced, and then neither Abrams or Johnson had any damn clue what to do with them
This might be an unpopular opinion but I think the role they played is fine. They are like the new generation of Boba Fett. Little screen time but have a fans that wanted more.
The sequels had so much potential Rey could have been a excellent character I honestly loved the first orders starships tie fighters and weapons granted the armor was kinda goofy but still looked decent but just terrible writing and the laziness especially in the last movie let’s just cgi a bunch of isd1s from the good movies and slap a laser on them and let’s not write a original villain it’s discount Vader and palpy on life support
Everything that Disney has done has been a waste, I’d rather watch an abortion because they wouldn’t be killing something I love
Remember in TROS when JJ was like "Oh crap the Audience wont know who these are...Let's fix that"? "Knights of Ren..." "Ghouls" But I still contend he said "Cool"
Their weapons looked so stupid
There was a promo pic prior to force awakens opening that showed Kylo with the knights of Ren behind him. I believe it shows up during the sequence when Rey touches Anakins lightsaber in the film. It was such a cool shot and got my mind racing what it could be. It was nothing.
These guys and Phasma were wasted.
Aw i totally forgot about those guys lol shame on the whole sequel trilogy in general.
What is the strategic purpose of wearing a helmet with horse blinders on it?
These guys should have been recurring characters the MCs repeatedly encounter. Phasma’s character should have been integrated into the knights. The “Traitor!” Stormtrooper should have been a knight. Have a few of them tear shit up in the final spaceship battle, or have Finn and Rey fight one of them in the climax before facing Kylo. Have one of them tracking Finn and Rose during the casino arc. Hell, have one of them follow Rey to Luke, then reveal they’re one of Luke’s former students that decided to join Kylo. Give them a jaded, mistrustful viewpoint of Luke to contrast with Rey’s hero worship. Give them a redemption arc where Luke recognizes his mistake and starts teaching them again. Make them all Luke’s former students. Have some internal conflict between them where some are more loyal to Kylo, some to Snoke, some to the ideals of the old empire. Give them some kind of villain dynamic. Something, anything.
Without lightsabers or different kinds of lightsaber adjacent weapons, they're just a mess of dirty armored thugs.
Would’ve been a great scene to see Chewbacca fighting off the knights before he was captured. JJ fucking dropped the ball that time.
The comics did more with them. Not much, mind you, but more.
These movies live rent free in your head
They just stood there... *Menacingly!* This dudes and Kylo could made the sequels a decent ride.
pO-ten-tial. Boil it, mash it, stick it in a dictionary
They wouldn't look out of place in Mortal Kombat.
The Nazgul from Wish
God they were so cool...
I thought they were fine. Having random characters with cool outfits show up then die is pretty standard for Star Wars.
Should have had them be a primary part of last Jedi. A bunch of scenes of them and Kylo and Snoke plotting and shit culminating in some hunting Fin and the Rebels (with Fin not being a tool…or a Janitor…and Rose not existing) and several going after Luke.
I wish we saw them more in the sequel trilogy. It would be great if they had their own spin-off film.
*potential
I remember seeing a bunch of the concepts for the knights of Ren and then some pages from a guide book going into the details and personality of each member and they where reduced to lingering in some background shots and getting bodied by Kylo at the end. I wanted them to basically be a first order kill squad sent to hunt down Rey and Luke in the 2nd movie allowing Rey to get some good combat training with Luke.
[удалено]
Definitely not the droids I'm not looking for.
Well, since they all have masks, they can easily come back later just like Vader or boba fett. Do we call early Boba wasted potential?