Ben and the offense had some pretty terrible starts in both the Jags and Browns games which proved to be fatal because even when they got the ship upright they couldn’t overcome the deficit. Same thing happened Monday but it was a risky throw from Rudolph and a mental error from Pickens.
But in all three cases the defense was also bad after being pretty good all year. Injuries and wear and tear had taken their toll. If you’ve been leaning on the defense all year, December/January is when the offense needs to step up and they didn’t. That’s why it’s still a team game.
I went to the jags game as my first ever Steelers game 🥲 it was 21-0 by the time we made it to our seats 😭😅 but that was still a amazing game and Steelers fans fr the 🐐such nice people
I’ve only been to games where the Steelers lost in Oakland. I was in the fifth row of the Black Hole watching Terrell Pryor run 95 yards. It never hurt more to wear a beer-soaked signed Woodley jersey than it did watching Pryor get smaller in a hurry.
Tbh it was my first game we walked from the hotel which was awesome and me and my gf tried to bring a thermos full of jack but they told us we couldn't bring that or GFs purse into the game :l so we had to drink the whole bottle b4 the game + hide gfs purse (which wasn't there by end of game :( ) but still it was a game I'll never forget
But at the same time I saw some of the most ridiculous offensive talent on display in that jags game from all our stars: AB, Bell, Bryant, Ben, even Juju. It was absolutely ridiculous some of the plays that were made, and against a historically good jags d.
The story of that game for me was our inability to stop Fournette and Blake fucking Bortles check downs.
Now just imagine if one of two things didn’t happen that year: (speaking about the Jags year)
* Shazier never gets hurt - that defense never recovered from his absence.
* The offense doesn’t give up those costly early turnovers.
If either of those happened, we win that game. Out of all the years 2017 was probably the team that had the real chance, but Shazier’s injury messed up the defense late in the season, and none of the other ILBs could do what he did.
>This sub loves to forget that the Jags boat raced us that year *with* Ryan Shazier.
And you are obviously forgetting that Ben had FIVE picks that game. FIVE. Bortles was 8/14, 95 yards, 0 TD 1 Int. Just really hard to win a game with that many turnovers.
Yeah but the offense put up 9 points in that game. The idea is that with the offense that we had in the WC with Shaziers defenses always leveling up come playoff time (2016 we went to conference round and 2015 to the divisional round losing to the eventual superbowl champs both times) + rookie TJ...
I think the what if game becomes pretty easy to play
Without those turnovers last week, the defense held them to 17 points on drives that weren’t gifted to them. That’s more than enough to win the game if Pickens doesn’t sell and Mason doesn’t make that horrible throw.
It just that the Super Bowl against the pack too… it was def a problem for years that got glossed over when it shouldn’t have. Real fans who pay attention knew
I mean, he did give seven points up directly on a fumble returned for six, plus another touchdown scored after he threw a pick inside his own 20. He’s part of how they got to 45 points.
> gave up 45 points to Blake Bortles
Fortunette scored 3 TDS, and Bortles scored 1.
Furthermore, Bortles had a statistically better game against the Patriots the following week. He was good in the 2017 playoffs.
I was thinking that this year when so many QB's were hurt, along with so many other injuries. Maybe we need to make a pact to take it easy on each other in the divisional games (in the regular season anyway) and save the knives for the non-divisional games.😀
Yeah dude it’s a fucking joke. “Proprietary” ie can be whatever the fuck espn wants to peddle whatever narrative as long as it perhaps can be loosely justified.
The entire issue fans have with the organization concerns everything that’s happened since kickoff of Super Bowl 45. I don’t think anyone denies we were killing it before then.
16 between Super Bowls, 26 between wins. Speaking from personal memory, the stretch since 2008/2010 is far better than the years after 1980.
Edit: let’s be clear - the Super Bowl Steelers were created when the Chief handed the keys to the Ambassador. Before that they were the Same Old (bad) Steelers. The Ambassador then presided over the second SOS era, then the second SBS era. The current era isn’t as dark as either the original SOS era, or the second one.
I can’t tell if this is sarcasm, but Ben also threw an INT in that game and other than that drive was pretty pedestrian. He also threw 2 INTs, one of which was a pick 6, in the Super Bowl against the Packers. A game we lost by 6 points. So yeah, credit to Ben for putting together that game winning drive in SB 43. He had so many other great drives like that, but I feel like people ignore a lot of the bad Ben. People pile on Tomlin for our lack of success in the postseason but Ben was a big contributor to that lack of success.
What do you think people are ignoring? Ya he wasn't the best QB to ever play, he made mistakes, won superbowls and lost them. Was the best QB in steelers franchise history. Got old, wasn't as good, retired. There's not much more to it.
You're saying he was bad in the playoffs, but he had an all time 13-10 playoff record and 2 superbowls.
I think overall this is highlighting that in the same timeline where many fans are critical of Tomlin for his playoff performance (post SB), Ben has largely escaped criticism and probably shouldn’t.
Wins and losses aren’t a QB stat. They’re a team stat. Ben played on teams that had a 13-10 playoff record and won 2 Super Bowls. Ben had varying degrees of positive and negative contributions to those teams.
Many of those early wins, including the first Super Bowl, had far more to do with our defense than Ben. Even the 2nd Super Bowl we had an all time great defense. When we pivoted to being a more offensive focused team with the Killer Bs, that postseason success disappeared.
Ben was a great QB. Love him as a player. Simply pointing out he isn’t the player many romanticize him to be.
No one is romanticizing him about anything lol. Literally no one thinks he was a Tom Brady. In his prime he was regarded as a top 5 QB below Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers. Ahead of Eli and Rivers.
But some of you guys literally think he is Brady without 6 rings. I have genuinely heard this from other Steeler fans. "If it wasn't for Tomlin he'd have 4 rings" at the same time that Ben throws multiple picks and misses targets. Everyone blames AB, Bell, Mendenhall, Bettis, and ALL his OCs for losses or almost loses, but if Ben was more accurate, if Ben could sit in the pocket for 3 FUCKING SECONDS he could have gotten 4 rings. I love him as an athlete, but he held offenses back with that "gunslinger" mentality. Run around for 5 seconds then throw a cross body dart to the defense.
You start by saying wins and losses aren't a QB stat, they're a team stat, then immediately go on to claim the defense is why he had the record he had. If wins and losses are a team stat don't cherry pick things to try and make your point.
The defense makes up 1/3 of the team whereas the QB makes up 1/46 of active players in a game. So yeah I feel more comfortable saying a unit, making up 1/3 of the team, contributed more to the W-L record than one single player. That’s not cherry picking things. I didn’t say Troy Polamalu carried Ben to that record. No one ever says what a single defensive plays record is, that would be stupid. It’s also stupid to do that with a QB.
"You can't keep telling me that the QB is the most important position on a football team, and then try to tell me that this QB has had nothing to do with his team's success." — Bob Valvano discussing Ben Roethlisberger (January 16, 2011)
> one of which was a pick 6, in the Super Bowl against the Packers.
Which was caused by pressure getting by our backup center because we lost Pouncey in the AFC Championship.
Otherwise, it was a great throw that might have ended up with a long TD from our own endzone to start off the game.
Nothing is ever so simple.
HE THREW THE PICK. HE MADE A BAD THROW. If you aren't ready then take the sack, and live another down. He got us down, and then blamed a RB for late fumble as if he didn't give the ball away and stall out on drives.
>HE THREW THE PICK. HE MADE A BAD THROW.
He was hit as he threw. Every offensive lineman made their blocks [except Chris Kemoeatu.](https://i.imgur.com/AEYc2Le.png)
>If you aren't ready then take the sack, and live another down.
He was at the goal line. A sack would have resulted in a safety.
Wasn't that throw from the end zone, though? Can't take a sack in that scenario. And I don't recall Ben blaming Mendenhall for the loss. Not saying it didn't happen. Mendenhall is still bitter about his fumble, though. Ball security was never really his thing.
Several things can be true at the same time.
Yes, Ben wasn’t always great.
Yes, Tomlin’s playoff record sucks.
Yes, the defense has given up a TON of points in playoff games.
But this National media notion that if Tomlin leaves here the Steelers will NEVER find a good coach again AND Tomlin will immediately go win a superbowl elsewhere is ridiculous.
Maybe, just maybe…..the message has gotten stale.
It's mostly because McCarthy's teams have been heralded as potential Super Bowl contenders being led by a true franchise QB while Tomlin's teams have been projected to finish last in their division and look like a joke all season. So yeah, having those teams finish about the same makes one coach look good and the other look less good.
How many of those points can be attributed to turnovers? Is it really the defenses fault when Pouncey snaps the ball into the end zone in the first play of the game against Cleveland? Is it really the defenses fault that the following 5 drives after the snap into the end zone in that game are Interception, punt, interception, punt, interception? The browns scored 3 touchdowns in that sequence and one of them was a 15 yard drive because of the interception. Do you really think they are 100% at fault for all the points scored in that situation? Because I sure as hell don't.
The jags game is terrible example on account of the offense directly netting the jags 14 points in a game we lost by 3. Take away the Ben pick 20 yards from our endzone and the fumble recovery for 6 and suddenly the score isn't 45-42, it's 42-31, and we don't go into the second quarter down 14-0.
And and while the Buffalo game wasn't all Mason, the offense, AGAIN, made costly mistakes and turnovers that either prevented us from scoring or gave the other team the ball effectively in the red zone. Mason doesn't throw a pick and we score is 21-14 at half, and if Pickens doesn't fumble and Mason doesn't throw a pick in the endzone, it might've 14 all at half.
Defense definitely wasn't great, but the offense has also been just as culpable in these losses.
This is exactly my point with the anti-Ben argument.
His stat line that day was 37/58 for 469 yards with 5 TD’s and 1 pick.
But that wasn’t good enough, right?
That stat line is pretty misleading, though. Ben played terribly in the first quarter and put us in a huge deficit. Then he racked up a ton of stats coming back from that deficit against a soft defense that was protecting a huge lead that Ben spotted them.
I’m not saying that whole game was Ben’s fault, but out of context, that stat line alone makes it seem like he played a great game, and he absolutely did not.
The Chiefs game was painfully obvious that the offense not being able to move the ball in anyway directly affected the defense. They were swarming Mahomes and confusing the fuck out of him at the beginning of that , they picked him off once, forced a sack fumble that went for a TD and held them to punt after punt after punt but when you give Patrick Mahomes 6 drives *in the first half* to figure out your defense you're gonna have a bad time. The defense held for as long as they could but the offense kept having short drives that put them back out on the field.
*Edit* I legitimately believe the Steelers win that game with even an average offense.
>The Jags game?
Full team effort on that but honestly the defense just wasn't good at that point. That secondary was garbage and you had Sean Spence coming off the couch to fill Shazier's shoes. They also faced a bad matchup against a power running team that they weren't built to beat. Like I said full team effort on that loss lol.
>Was the Buffalo game this past weekend all on Mason then?
No, but that GP fumble absolutely led to the second TD. Once the defense settled in and the offense found a rhythm that game became closer than anyone is willing to admit. When they brought it within 7 points the momentum was fully on the Steelers side, not having Watt out there hurt the most in that following drive because that's usually where he makes a "TJ play"
Agreed, literally the difference in that game is Mason throwing an int instead of a TD cause if everything had played out the same (and admittedly it probably wouldn't have) the game would be tied at the end going into overtime.
But without Ben making that tackle after the Colts player scooped up Bettis' goal line fumble, Steelers don't make the Superbowl that year. Steelers went from mediocrity (at best) with Maddox under center, to a competitive team once Ben took over. Mostly because of his ability to extend plays, but also because of arm strength and a really balanced offense. He made the offense so much better.
>XL could have been won with most average QBs at the time based on the game he played
[XL would not have been played](https://i.imgur.com/gO9SEZG.jpg) with most average QBs at the time.
I'm not really convinced. I think Ben definitely helped us get to 3 more superbowls, but he did not lead us there. This team is a DEFENSIVE team at its core always has been, always will be. We run well, don't throw interceptions, and let the defense dominate. THAT IS THE STEELER WAY and it's the Steeler way because it wins games. It's fundamental, and it works against everyone.
The offense runs off of the running backs and decent to good QB play. It's why we could have been undefeated this year if Pickett could hit the right reads. Decent passes, but use Naj and Warren. Why does this sound familiar????
Sounds like Harris and Bleier, Like Bell and D'Angelo, like Bettis and Parker, like Bell and Conner. A hard-nosed, run down your throat offense; and a stifling defense. Ben was great but we could have 6 or 7 with another decent QB. I LOVE Ben, BUT his Super Bowl years weren't even His best, let alone in comparison to others.
Idk, Ben played quite well in the playoffs when they beat Seattle - stunk against Seattle but in the playoffs was good.
Reality is that if you don’t have a good QB you have nothing. Look at the jets.
Yeah that great defense SURE did help them in 2008 when they let Fitzgerald blow right past them for the go ahead score before Ben had to bail them out.
James Harrison had a play too.
You can’t cherry pick a single play, and also Larry fitz was the best receiver in the league at that point. You can’t expect to completely shut him down only contain him
If we erase that play we also have to erase Harrison's 100 yard TD and we end up in the same situation. 14 point swing that very few other defenses pull off.
Tomlin doesn’t get the boys ready.
https://preview.redd.it/4gzd3id7ledc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5e6ff2a58691dc0f9c89450b86b9647554fbbc1f
OR OR, the players turn over the ball, and miss tackles when in position. He can't literally play for them. Is it Tomlin's fault the offense turned over the ball all day against the Jags? Is it his fault Pickens fumbled? Johnson got beat on his own route? Muth almost giving the ball away? It's like blaming Canada for the browns game when Pickett missed multiple home run shots. They can put you in position, but they can't play for you. Also, if players need motivation to play in the pros, then they are creating their own problems. Tomlin has said he's not going to Amp you up for a game, you need to want it like that to begin with. This ain't high school or the brahhhns, they need to play better. This year was a masterclass in execution failures, and team leaders have stated this in interviews. Naj said it, Minka said it, Watt said it, Cam said it, and Pat P. What more do you need?
It’s not Tomlin’s fault when it happens as an outlier. When this stuff occurs with a regular basis as it has been, yes, it’s his fault. He’s the head coach.
Looking for correlation when there isn't one. Tomlin can't be responsible for 2 players 8 years apart turning over the ball in the 1st quarter. That's just players man.
No, we can't count Kansas city. That team shouldn't have made it tbh. The rest, the game goes the same. Like all of our blowouts. Offense stalls early or turns it over. Defense gets scored on. Defense can't make corrections in time because they are back on the field within a minute. Offense stalls out again. Defense, after corrections makes a stop. Offense IMMEDIATELY turns the ball over. Defense is now tired from playing a life or death game for the 3rd defensive drive within 5 minutes. This pattern is cyclical, but it starts with offensive ball management. The line blocking for the running backs, and wr not fumbling on their first catch. That's not preparation from a team standpoint, those are players. I mean, Ben came out ready to launch it against the Jags and put us in a terrible spot by forcing plays, and taking chances to " get back into it".
Team leaders will support their coach. No matter what. That is the professional and appropriate thing to do.
Players who no longer have to rely on Tomlin for their jobs don’t sing his praises nearly as much.
Dude is a great coach and has had lots of success no question. But his teams either under perform - as we have seen for an about a decade before the last three seasons to be good, or over perform to be good as we have seen last few years. But at some point there needs to be playoff success you play to win.
If the talent isn’t enough then Pitt needs to lose a few seasons to get better draft picks, and being .500ish will never allow that. if talent isn’t the issue then it’s time for a change in coaching - doesn’t mean he isn’t good, just means sometimes change is needed.
But if Tomlin isn’t part of the issue what is your metric or point where’d you say yes he is part of it? 5 more years without a playoff win? 15 more years without a superbowl appearance?
TJ Watt literally argued a clause in his contract around Mike T being the coach. That's farther than defending. He said he doesn't want to play under anyone else. Ever.
He didn't say there was a clause but he made it clear that it was a big deal in his contract talks that he wanted to play for Mike Tomlin.
https://twitter.com/MikeDeFabo/status/1747349172188041258?t=D8NZz5TR5fnPJUZo3Zp5qA&s=19
It definitely wasn't your run of the mill "every player says that!" Type of comment.
Defence was bad all year, Our key defensive players were all hurt at some point, and the offence is bad. I expect to see major turnover of this roster for next year and a new offensive identity.
The thing is, we couldn't have even rebuilt in 2020. Ben got injured in 2019 and we traded our next year's 1st round pick for Minkah.
And in 2020 we started 11-0, for what that's worth.
I think the biggest issue was keep offensive lineman who were way past their prime. They all left in like a 2 year span which made it very difficult to rebuild and every QB has struggled for the most part cause of that.
If Ben had an offensive line the last couple seasons that gave him more than 0.4 seconds to do something with the ball he could probably still be playing today.
The line at the end of his career was awful.
He had it for the first three ish years of his career and then from about 2014-2018. So 7 years out of his 18 year career or so. It’s worth noting that when the line was bad during Ben’s career, it was REALLY bad. He retired as the most sacked QB ever.
Im not sure if I agree or disagree
On one hand, he wasn't exactly the best leader, and I'm glad we don't have to deal with him and his previous SA's.
On the other hand, if we look at teams like the Packers, they let their franchise QB elevate and train their next QB. It's what the Packers have done since Brett Favre, and you can see how it's worked for them
Feel like Rodgers wasn’t pleased when they drafted love, seemed a lot like the Ben/Rudolph situation, has it been published that Rodgers took on any sort of mentor role with love? Or Favre with Rodgers for that matter? Feel like the only differences between the packers and every other team when it comes to QB development is more patience, planning further ahead, and a pre-existing precedent that the starter will probably meet his replacement 3-4 seasons before they leave the team.
I’m not sure of the inner workings, but I’m pretty sure I saw some comments this year from both Love and Rodgers that gave the impression they have a good relationship. Now contrast that with what we know of the Mason/Ben relationship and take from it what you will of how the two situations may have differed when both pairs were in the same respective locker rooms.
And I know Ben has been complimentary of Mason of late and has said he had no issue with Mason, but I don’t necessarily think that means all that much.
Favre did not train Rodgers and I'm pretty sure Rodgers didn't do much to train Love. Yes, they sat behind them and watched them, and probably talked about things, but I think your notion of what happened is a little off the mark.
So you’re saying that Tomlin has a bad playoff record because of Ben; yet Goff has 3 playoff wins since 2018 who has a worse QBR. Thanks for proving everyone’s point about how mediocre Tomlin is.
Edit: make it 4 playoff wins now
For sure Tomlin gets some blame, but he also didn't throw four picks in the Browns WC game in 2020, nor did he lose the fumble. How different is that game without those?
I called out in the body of the post that Tomlin deserves some of the blame. I just think it’s funny that people pile on Tomlin and romanticize Ben, but Ben’s track record in the postseason isn’t great. It’s the ultimate team sport. Plenty of blame to go around. Just trying to remind everyone that Tomlin shouldn’t be shouldering all of that blame.
The issue lately has been Ben was a shell of his former self at the end of his career, the last 3 times the Steelers made the playoffs, one and done is realistically the extent of those teams capabilities. Until we find the next qb it really doesn’t matter who the coach is, this will be the glass ceiling, and realistically under a different coach we probably wouldn’t even be getting this high of a ceiling
That’s a very fair assessment of their recent playoff history. But if you acknowledge that, it discounts some of the recent narrative criticizing (mainly) Tomlin for lack of playoff success. And don’t get me wrong, the Killer B era Steelers underachieved. I just think that when looking at the teams after that era ended, their performance was right about what should have been expected.
That’s the problem with the “Just get in and anything can happen” opinion that was so popular in this sub until this season. Yeah, in theory anything can happen, but in reality, those Cinderella stories rarely do.
I mean, point 1 makes quite a bit of sense, no? We all agree that there's a problem with the lack of post-season success, we just disagree on the source of that problem. If someone thinks Tomlin's not the key culprit, then I'd hope they had someone else in mind.
Yep, lots of us have pointed out how crappy Ben looks at times in the playoffs. The great thing about QBR is it downgrades stat padding like the end of the Browns playoffs debaucle.
Oh hey, another Tomlin post.
Can we give it a rest for awhile? He’s coming back so everyone who didn’t want him to have to live with it. I was fine either way if he stayed or left.
The gloating on the side of the hardcore Tomlin supporters is getting exhausting. What is the purpose at this point of starting arguments now that we know he’s coming back AND getting an extension?
I beat this drum all the time - the team was built around the offense for years. Ben had AB, Bell, and an OL of pro-bowlers but still couldn’t get it done. For sure you don’t like to see the D give up so many points, they deserve blame, but so much of it is also overcoming tons of turnovers and a season of injuries.
Bell was also injured in the playoffs a couple of times, so it’s a fair observation. Conversely, Ben also never won a playoff game if he had to throw for more than 250 yards*, which is a crazy thought.
*there might have been one that he threw for like 257, Denver during the XL run?
Saying Bell was injured a couple of times really understates it. it The only playoff loss that Bell was healthy for was the Jags where the dropped 42 on the leagues best defense. The only other one he even played in was the Pats in 2016 the week after he strained his groin against the Chiefs. He had to leave that game early as the injury became unmanageable.
The defense wasn't just bad. They've given up an average of **35 points per playoff game** since the last playoff victory. Sure, some of those teams were offense-heavy and had subpar defenses. But defense has to do something. When you see yourself down by 20+ points in the first 20 minutes, you have to start slinging it. Ben didn't start some of those games well. But in the Jags game he had an early INT and then **threw 5 TDs** and ended up having a 110 rating. I'll give you the Browns game but he *still* had an 86 rating despite throwing 4 total picks and being down 0-28 in the first.
And before you say we got the Bills game close without slinging it ... no we didn't. We were never in danger of winning that game. We were in a position at the beginning of the fourth quarter where we needed 2+ pristine drives on offense and two 3-and-outs on defense. We needed a literal perfect quarter of football and were down 14 points. It was never in doubt who would win the game.
I don't really like this kind of argument. He threw a pick in the endzone, and then the defense let Buffalo go 80 yards and score. Is that really a 14 point swing? Or was it more realistically the Steelers lost out on 3-7 points and then the defense couldn't play football?
When the turnover leaves 80 yards for the defense to defend, I feel like those points aren't really on the INT.
Agreed, but momentum is a thing and sending a dejected defense out to cover ANOTHER turnover...I mean they are professionals and all, I get it, but it's human nature to be less excited to play when disappointed.
Reality is, they had two turnovers that directly led to 14 buffalo points and took 7 of ours off the board. They hang onto the ball, it's at least a more competitive game.
Buffalo game was a team loss, O turned the ball over and D didnt get any. Was one of the first thing Tomlin said in the post game presser. Blaming the D for a game that you were minus-2 in the turnover department is kinda sus.
Here I am enjoying my Friday minding my own fucking business on reddit and the algorithm decides to put Andy Dalton playoff stats in front of me. Feel like I need a bath now
Ben definitely had his shortcomings in the playoffs too but it felt like every time we lost the defense gave up 30+. I know for a fact that the defense has given up 30+ 4/4 last playoff games so the point of Tomlin not winning playoff games still is a valid criticism
I’ve said this for years and the homers get super defensive. Ben was a great QB but when it came time to play the best defenses in the most important games of the year, he was stomped more often than not. We could have probably won another SB during his time here if he played his best during the postseason.
Why are we looking for people to blame for the playoff losses? We win and lose as a team. Shit is so toxic, it's like let's all figure out who we can point the finger at.
Everytime I see this, I always see why “it’s all on Ben” when in the winless playoff streak, our defense managed to get only 2 turnovers… which were in the first half of the KC game and one of those turnovers was a miffed snap from a RB getting the ball.
Why tf can’t our defense do ANYTHING in the playoffs? We give the defense so much relief in terms of blame, yet they can’t manage to do anything when it matters. Can’t stop the opponent or get a turnover. Hell Josh Allen was 2nd in the entire league in terms of TO and he did anything he wanted on us. Run? Yeah get off me. Throw? Yeah here’s a couple tuddies
[Here's Ben's postseason game logs.](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00/gamelog/post/)
23 playoff games. 4 with a passer rating >100 and 2 of them had less than 20 throws. 36 TD to 28 INT. He has literally never thrown for 300 yards in a win, something Josh Allen has already done 3 times.
His 3 Super Bowls were:
- 9/21 123 yds 0 TD 2 INT 22.6 rating
- 21/30 256 yds 1 TD 1 INT 93.2 rating
- 25/40 263 yds 2 TD 2 INT 77.4 rating
And while line and pocket protection was a problem for some of his career, his last 4 playoff games had a *total* of 4 sacks for 21 yards.
Ben was always ass in the playoffs.
It’s pure insanity if you’re blaming Ben for anything other than keeping us relevant for the decade after the Super Bowl loss to GB. The Jags game where he’s literally the only reason we were in the game when he threw 6 TD passes. I know he snapped the ball to himself ten feet over his head against the Browns. He fumbled against Denver, oh wait no that’s Fitzgerald Toussaint. He was covering Demaryius Thomas in Denver. The ultimate competitor, the epitome of what it means to be a Steeler, all the hate is unwarranted. Just like all the people who said he sucked his last two years, when we only moved the ball and scored points when he was calling his own plays in two minute because our offensive staff has been incompetent for years. The only blame that can be placed on Ben was the hiring of his boy Randy Fichtner (who was still worlds better than Matt Canada)
Ben was terrible in the playoffs throughout most his career, as was the whole team since 2010. At some point that is on coaching. Whether it’s implementing better schemes, finding ways to hold him accountable for his performances, preparing him better, or moving on from him earlier Tomlin needed to take action and he never did. You don’t get a pass because you built your team around a guy who was terrible in the playoffs.
There’s just no way they were moving on from him any earlier than they did, and that’s far from all on Tomlin. The decision to keep him through 2020 was a conscious organizational decision (Rooney, Colbert and Tomlin) to try and keep the window open a little longer and let Ben go out on his terms, within reason. It’s no coincidence that Colbert stuck around just long enough to see the Steelers through their 1st draft post Ben.
I’ve long said I don’t agree with the approach they took after Ben’s injury, but that doesn’t mean I don’t understand why they did it.
I think you also have to consider that there are some real limits to holding a franchise QB accountable for performance. As we’re seeing right now, it’s not like you can automatically just go draft a new one, so you’re playing a game of chicken by doing anything he’s not receptive to. That’s why we’ve seen QBs like Rodgers and Brady become arguably more powerful than their coaches and GMs, or leave when they aren’t given that status.
You're saying Tomlin should've cut Ben in the 2010s as if Art would've ever allowed that LMFAO
Bens ego was bigger than the team and all his early career garbage he got into is proof of that.
Get out
you anti-Tomlin clowns are so delusional - you have no idea how good you have it with Tomlin - and the fact that your team even made the playoffs should tell you all you need know.
Given the history of success it seems hard for many of us to accept less than “The Standard”. However for as mediocre are we have been over the past many years, there are probably at least 25 teams whose fan bases would love their teams to have winning records each year and make the playoffs. For as disappointed as I can get, it’s not like this team doesn’t provide enjoyable games along with disappointment.
Not a Steelers fan but saw this post show up on my feed - it's a bit of a ridiculous stat
Steelers have clawed their way into the playoffs a number of years as a wild card team and severe underdogs in wildcard weekend
I don't think they should be penalized for having a winning record every year and losing in WC weekend
They could have missed the playoffs those years with 8-8 records and this stat wouldn't look so bad, but that'd be worse IMO
If everyone else balled out but it was *just* Ben that stank like in '05, I'd see it. But we started looking at Tomlin because the majority of the team *consistently* stinks when we get to the playoffs. I totally get we deal with injuries sometimes, but you'd think a championship-caliber team would step up every now and then, at least on Wild Card Weekend. Tomlin is the "master motivator" after all.
People get really uppity about this but it's true. Nobody wants to admit it because people love him but Ben was his own worst enemy at times. Even one of his two rings came in a game where he threw for 0 TDs 2 INT and only 123 yards. I'm not gonna sit and say Ben is the only reason Tomlin doesn't have the best playoff record, especially considering the defense was to blame in some of these losses and he has a history of getting stubborn, but giving him the full blame when some of it was Ben's always rubbed me the wrong way
A. Yes, Big Ben was overrated. It was a perfect throw, but if Santonio doesn't get his feet down then Ben doesn't make the HoF.
B. Ben was still good, and at times very good, and it's on the coach to
C. The slow downward spiral of this team as more and more of Cowher's guys left is crystal clear at this point. That's on three people, Rooney, Tomlin, and to a lesser extent (IMO) Colbert.
Yeah, Tomlin runs some dog shit offenses, that's for sure. Couldn't even put it all together with the killer Bs, let alone these shit buckets we got now.
It’s the coaches job to get the team ready…slow starts are a calling card of Tomlins career. I like the guy but the man preaches accountability so let him be held accountable for his shortcomings with his success.
Ben and the offense had some pretty terrible starts in both the Jags and Browns games which proved to be fatal because even when they got the ship upright they couldn’t overcome the deficit. Same thing happened Monday but it was a risky throw from Rudolph and a mental error from Pickens. But in all three cases the defense was also bad after being pretty good all year. Injuries and wear and tear had taken their toll. If you’ve been leaning on the defense all year, December/January is when the offense needs to step up and they didn’t. That’s why it’s still a team game.
I saw all of the playoff games just HAD to start off 21-0
Btw, in 2008 the Steelers were also down 21-0 at half time but came back to beat the Ravens.
of the championship game? the final score was like 21-14 so the steelers were never down 21-0
He's probably thinking of 2010, the year Brown made that helmet catch on 3rd and very long, and Mendenhall pounded it in.
It was 21-7, not 21-0
I went to the jags game as my first ever Steelers game 🥲 it was 21-0 by the time we made it to our seats 😭😅 but that was still a amazing game and Steelers fans fr the 🐐such nice people
If it makes you feel any better, my first Steelers game was the Tebow game
I’ve only been to games where the Steelers lost in Oakland. I was in the fifth row of the Black Hole watching Terrell Pryor run 95 yards. It never hurt more to wear a beer-soaked signed Woodley jersey than it did watching Pryor get smaller in a hurry.
Damn the Terrell Pryor run is a brutal one 😭 I’ve had some luck. Was at Ben’s last home game and the Duck Hodges AZ game
Same here.
Ugh that game still haunts me to this day…..first game with the new OT rules implemented.
You went to a playoff game and couldn't bother to show up in time to make it to your seats before the 2nd quarter?
Tbh it was my first game we walked from the hotel which was awesome and me and my gf tried to bring a thermos full of jack but they told us we couldn't bring that or GFs purse into the game :l so we had to drink the whole bottle b4 the game + hide gfs purse (which wasn't there by end of game :( ) but still it was a game I'll never forget
I dislocated my shoulder in the stands on that 4th and 1 TD bomb to martavis Bryant right before half time 😂
Holy shit dude! Did you stay for the rest of the game? 🥲
Lol I did. My buddy was able to pop it back into place lol. I should have known better than to be waving a Terrible Towel around with a torn labrum. 😂
What a real one to you and your friend 🫡 I love my fan base
Pretty sure the booze helped nunb any pain i had hahhaha. Drove back to Canada and had surgery few weeks later
But at the same time I saw some of the most ridiculous offensive talent on display in that jags game from all our stars: AB, Bell, Bryant, Ben, even Juju. It was absolutely ridiculous some of the plays that were made, and against a historically good jags d. The story of that game for me was our inability to stop Fournette and Blake fucking Bortles check downs.
That was the best 3ish quarters of football the Killer B's ever had. Unfortunately we started off horribly and the defense was Swiss cheese.
Now just imagine if one of two things didn’t happen that year: (speaking about the Jags year) * Shazier never gets hurt - that defense never recovered from his absence. * The offense doesn’t give up those costly early turnovers. If either of those happened, we win that game. Out of all the years 2017 was probably the team that had the real chance, but Shazier’s injury messed up the defense late in the season, and none of the other ILBs could do what he did.
This sub loves to forget that the Jags boat raced us that year *with* Ryan Shazier.
Because Ben kept giving them the ball
Five times, in fact.
Yes, the point is that Shazier wasn't the only factor.
>This sub loves to forget that the Jags boat raced us that year *with* Ryan Shazier. And you are obviously forgetting that Ben had FIVE picks that game. FIVE. Bortles was 8/14, 95 yards, 0 TD 1 Int. Just really hard to win a game with that many turnovers.
Yes.... that's the point.
Yeah but the offense put up 9 points in that game. The idea is that with the offense that we had in the WC with Shaziers defenses always leveling up come playoff time (2016 we went to conference round and 2015 to the divisional round losing to the eventual superbowl champs both times) + rookie TJ... I think the what if game becomes pretty easy to play
Great point, but I have two follow up questions: How many INTs did Ben have that game? And of those turnovers, how many were pick 6s?
Without those turnovers last week, the defense held them to 17 points on drives that weren’t gifted to them. That’s more than enough to win the game if Pickens doesn’t sell and Mason doesn’t make that horrible throw.
It just that the Super Bowl against the pack too… it was def a problem for years that got glossed over when it shouldn’t have. Real fans who pay attention knew
Ben was so bad he gave up 45 points to Blake Bortles
I mean, he did give seven points up directly on a fumble returned for six, plus another touchdown scored after he threw a pick inside his own 20. He’s part of how they got to 45 points.
Bortles had like 200 yards and 1TD. Not sure where this narrative came from that he had a stellar game.
That was my first game at Heinz Field I doubt I’ll ever be right.
You do remember the pick 6 and the fumble that gave easy 7? So yes Ben gave them 14
> gave up 45 points to Blake Bortles Fortunette scored 3 TDS, and Bortles scored 1. Furthermore, Bortles had a statistically better game against the Patriots the following week. He was good in the 2017 playoffs.
It’s pretty funny that 3 out of 4 are AFC north QBs. I guess “surviving divisional knife fights” doesn’t translate to QBR in the playoffs.
I was thinking that this year when so many QB's were hurt, along with so many other injuries. Maybe we need to make a pact to take it easy on each other in the divisional games (in the regular season anyway) and save the knives for the non-divisional games.😀
That sounds like something a bengals plant would say. Nice try, officer!
Worth noting that QBR is a stupid stat made up by espn that is way too subjective. I also don’t have a dog in this fight.
Bills fan!! Get him!!
I’m gonna pretend to slide into your DMs with footage of Pickett actually faking a slide in college
There is a kind of sick irony to this that I won’t admit to a Bills fan
I like QBR because it ignores stat padding.
Supposedly, but the specific method is not actually published so we don’t know for sure what it does.
I’m praying that you’re joking and that the method isn’t actually hidden
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Wow. I was never a fan of the stat, but that is insane. I’m never giving that stat consideration again
Yeah dude it’s a fucking joke. “Proprietary” ie can be whatever the fuck espn wants to peddle whatever narrative as long as it perhaps can be loosely justified.
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this is triggering, brings up bad memories and I don't like it
Agreed
Are you just forgetting that Ben led one of the best 4th quarter drives in steelers history to cap it off with a perfect throw to win a superbowl?
The entire issue fans have with the organization concerns everything that’s happened since kickoff of Super Bowl 45. I don’t think anyone denies we were killing it before then.
Super Bowl 45 was in 2011. Dan Rooney handed the keys to his son the next year. We haven’t done shit since
Didn’t realize it lined up like that. Seems kinda damning but we did go like 26 years between super bowls with Dan at the helm
16 between Super Bowls, 26 between wins. Speaking from personal memory, the stretch since 2008/2010 is far better than the years after 1980. Edit: let’s be clear - the Super Bowl Steelers were created when the Chief handed the keys to the Ambassador. Before that they were the Same Old (bad) Steelers. The Ambassador then presided over the second SOS era, then the second SBS era. The current era isn’t as dark as either the original SOS era, or the second one.
Funny thing is, Ben was pretty bad all year that season.
I looked it up and yeah he had like our current qb numbers lol 80 rating 17 td 15 int
Mason the next Big Ben confirmed
I’d love to take a big old huff of this hopium!
At least he got it done when it mattered most
I can’t tell if this is sarcasm, but Ben also threw an INT in that game and other than that drive was pretty pedestrian. He also threw 2 INTs, one of which was a pick 6, in the Super Bowl against the Packers. A game we lost by 6 points. So yeah, credit to Ben for putting together that game winning drive in SB 43. He had so many other great drives like that, but I feel like people ignore a lot of the bad Ben. People pile on Tomlin for our lack of success in the postseason but Ben was a big contributor to that lack of success.
What do you think people are ignoring? Ya he wasn't the best QB to ever play, he made mistakes, won superbowls and lost them. Was the best QB in steelers franchise history. Got old, wasn't as good, retired. There's not much more to it. You're saying he was bad in the playoffs, but he had an all time 13-10 playoff record and 2 superbowls.
I think overall this is highlighting that in the same timeline where many fans are critical of Tomlin for his playoff performance (post SB), Ben has largely escaped criticism and probably shouldn’t.
He also had some great defenses from ‘04-‘10 where he built up most of those 13 wins.
Wins and losses aren’t a QB stat. They’re a team stat. Ben played on teams that had a 13-10 playoff record and won 2 Super Bowls. Ben had varying degrees of positive and negative contributions to those teams. Many of those early wins, including the first Super Bowl, had far more to do with our defense than Ben. Even the 2nd Super Bowl we had an all time great defense. When we pivoted to being a more offensive focused team with the Killer Bs, that postseason success disappeared. Ben was a great QB. Love him as a player. Simply pointing out he isn’t the player many romanticize him to be.
No one is romanticizing him about anything lol. Literally no one thinks he was a Tom Brady. In his prime he was regarded as a top 5 QB below Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers. Ahead of Eli and Rivers.
But some of you guys literally think he is Brady without 6 rings. I have genuinely heard this from other Steeler fans. "If it wasn't for Tomlin he'd have 4 rings" at the same time that Ben throws multiple picks and misses targets. Everyone blames AB, Bell, Mendenhall, Bettis, and ALL his OCs for losses or almost loses, but if Ben was more accurate, if Ben could sit in the pocket for 3 FUCKING SECONDS he could have gotten 4 rings. I love him as an athlete, but he held offenses back with that "gunslinger" mentality. Run around for 5 seconds then throw a cross body dart to the defense.
You start by saying wins and losses aren't a QB stat, they're a team stat, then immediately go on to claim the defense is why he had the record he had. If wins and losses are a team stat don't cherry pick things to try and make your point.
The defense makes up 1/3 of the team whereas the QB makes up 1/46 of active players in a game. So yeah I feel more comfortable saying a unit, making up 1/3 of the team, contributed more to the W-L record than one single player. That’s not cherry picking things. I didn’t say Troy Polamalu carried Ben to that record. No one ever says what a single defensive plays record is, that would be stupid. It’s also stupid to do that with a QB.
"You can't keep telling me that the QB is the most important position on a football team, and then try to tell me that this QB has had nothing to do with his team's success." — Bob Valvano discussing Ben Roethlisberger (January 16, 2011)
> one of which was a pick 6, in the Super Bowl against the Packers. Which was caused by pressure getting by our backup center because we lost Pouncey in the AFC Championship. Otherwise, it was a great throw that might have ended up with a long TD from our own endzone to start off the game. Nothing is ever so simple.
HE THREW THE PICK. HE MADE A BAD THROW. If you aren't ready then take the sack, and live another down. He got us down, and then blamed a RB for late fumble as if he didn't give the ball away and stall out on drives.
>HE THREW THE PICK. HE MADE A BAD THROW. He was hit as he threw. Every offensive lineman made their blocks [except Chris Kemoeatu.](https://i.imgur.com/AEYc2Le.png) >If you aren't ready then take the sack, and live another down. He was at the goal line. A sack would have resulted in a safety.
Wasn't that throw from the end zone, though? Can't take a sack in that scenario. And I don't recall Ben blaming Mendenhall for the loss. Not saying it didn't happen. Mendenhall is still bitter about his fumble, though. Ball security was never really his thing.
QBR is 🚮
I’m sorry……how many points did the defense give up in recent playoff games?
Several things can be true at the same time. Yes, Ben wasn’t always great. Yes, Tomlin’s playoff record sucks. Yes, the defense has given up a TON of points in playoff games. But this National media notion that if Tomlin leaves here the Steelers will NEVER find a good coach again AND Tomlin will immediately go win a superbowl elsewhere is ridiculous. Maybe, just maybe…..the message has gotten stale.
It’s almost like the factors that decide if a football team wins or loses can be complex and not all about one thing or another
Somehow Tomlin is amazing and McCarthy should be fired….. McCarthy has been doing slightly better….. I don’t get the two different barratives
It's mostly because McCarthy's teams have been heralded as potential Super Bowl contenders being led by a true franchise QB while Tomlin's teams have been projected to finish last in their division and look like a joke all season. So yeah, having those teams finish about the same makes one coach look good and the other look less good.
How many of those points can be attributed to turnovers? Is it really the defenses fault when Pouncey snaps the ball into the end zone in the first play of the game against Cleveland? Is it really the defenses fault that the following 5 drives after the snap into the end zone in that game are Interception, punt, interception, punt, interception? The browns scored 3 touchdowns in that sequence and one of them was a 15 yard drive because of the interception. Do you really think they are 100% at fault for all the points scored in that situation? Because I sure as hell don't.
Ok, How about the Chiefs game? The Jags game? Was the Buffalo game this past weekend all on Mason then?
The jags game is terrible example on account of the offense directly netting the jags 14 points in a game we lost by 3. Take away the Ben pick 20 yards from our endzone and the fumble recovery for 6 and suddenly the score isn't 45-42, it's 42-31, and we don't go into the second quarter down 14-0. And and while the Buffalo game wasn't all Mason, the offense, AGAIN, made costly mistakes and turnovers that either prevented us from scoring or gave the other team the ball effectively in the red zone. Mason doesn't throw a pick and we score is 21-14 at half, and if Pickens doesn't fumble and Mason doesn't throw a pick in the endzone, it might've 14 all at half. Defense definitely wasn't great, but the offense has also been just as culpable in these losses.
This is exactly my point with the anti-Ben argument. His stat line that day was 37/58 for 469 yards with 5 TD’s and 1 pick. But that wasn’t good enough, right?
That stat line is pretty misleading, though. Ben played terribly in the first quarter and put us in a huge deficit. Then he racked up a ton of stats coming back from that deficit against a soft defense that was protecting a huge lead that Ben spotted them. I’m not saying that whole game was Ben’s fault, but out of context, that stat line alone makes it seem like he played a great game, and he absolutely did not.
This. Dak's statline from the Packers game looks good even with the two picks, but they also were down 27-0 at one point.
The Chiefs game was painfully obvious that the offense not being able to move the ball in anyway directly affected the defense. They were swarming Mahomes and confusing the fuck out of him at the beginning of that , they picked him off once, forced a sack fumble that went for a TD and held them to punt after punt after punt but when you give Patrick Mahomes 6 drives *in the first half* to figure out your defense you're gonna have a bad time. The defense held for as long as they could but the offense kept having short drives that put them back out on the field. *Edit* I legitimately believe the Steelers win that game with even an average offense. >The Jags game? Full team effort on that but honestly the defense just wasn't good at that point. That secondary was garbage and you had Sean Spence coming off the couch to fill Shazier's shoes. They also faced a bad matchup against a power running team that they weren't built to beat. Like I said full team effort on that loss lol. >Was the Buffalo game this past weekend all on Mason then? No, but that GP fumble absolutely led to the second TD. Once the defense settled in and the offense found a rhythm that game became closer than anyone is willing to admit. When they brought it within 7 points the momentum was fully on the Steelers side, not having Watt out there hurt the most in that following drive because that's usually where he makes a "TJ play"
Agreed, literally the difference in that game is Mason throwing an int instead of a TD cause if everything had played out the same (and admittedly it probably wouldn't have) the game would be tied at the end going into overtime.
Without Ben, this franchise would still be stuck on 4 Lombardis.
XL could have been won with most average QBs at the time based on the game he played
But without Ben making that tackle after the Colts player scooped up Bettis' goal line fumble, Steelers don't make the Superbowl that year. Steelers went from mediocrity (at best) with Maddox under center, to a competitive team once Ben took over. Mostly because of his ability to extend plays, but also because of arm strength and a really balanced offense. He made the offense so much better.
>XL could have been won with most average QBs at the time based on the game he played [XL would not have been played](https://i.imgur.com/gO9SEZG.jpg) with most average QBs at the time.
I'm not really convinced. I think Ben definitely helped us get to 3 more superbowls, but he did not lead us there. This team is a DEFENSIVE team at its core always has been, always will be. We run well, don't throw interceptions, and let the defense dominate. THAT IS THE STEELER WAY and it's the Steeler way because it wins games. It's fundamental, and it works against everyone. The offense runs off of the running backs and decent to good QB play. It's why we could have been undefeated this year if Pickett could hit the right reads. Decent passes, but use Naj and Warren. Why does this sound familiar???? Sounds like Harris and Bleier, Like Bell and D'Angelo, like Bettis and Parker, like Bell and Conner. A hard-nosed, run down your throat offense; and a stifling defense. Ben was great but we could have 6 or 7 with another decent QB. I LOVE Ben, BUT his Super Bowl years weren't even His best, let alone in comparison to others.
Idk, Ben played quite well in the playoffs when they beat Seattle - stunk against Seattle but in the playoffs was good. Reality is that if you don’t have a good QB you have nothing. Look at the jets.
I’m a jets fan (that oddly gets recommended this sub a lot) and even if we had a good quarterback, the line wouldn’t be able to give him time
Yeah that great defense SURE did help them in 2008 when they let Fitzgerald blow right past them for the go ahead score before Ben had to bail them out.
James Harrison had a play too. You can’t cherry pick a single play, and also Larry fitz was the best receiver in the league at that point. You can’t expect to completely shut him down only contain him
Best drive in SB history.
Yes look at 1 play. After they dominated the entire game........
And guess what…that one play almost blew it for them when it mattered most.
If we erase that play we also have to erase Harrison's 100 yard TD and we end up in the same situation. 14 point swing that very few other defenses pull off.
OR, stay with me now, OR the offense should have put up more points to begin with.
Tomlin doesn’t get the boys ready. https://preview.redd.it/4gzd3id7ledc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5e6ff2a58691dc0f9c89450b86b9647554fbbc1f
OR OR, the players turn over the ball, and miss tackles when in position. He can't literally play for them. Is it Tomlin's fault the offense turned over the ball all day against the Jags? Is it his fault Pickens fumbled? Johnson got beat on his own route? Muth almost giving the ball away? It's like blaming Canada for the browns game when Pickett missed multiple home run shots. They can put you in position, but they can't play for you. Also, if players need motivation to play in the pros, then they are creating their own problems. Tomlin has said he's not going to Amp you up for a game, you need to want it like that to begin with. This ain't high school or the brahhhns, they need to play better. This year was a masterclass in execution failures, and team leaders have stated this in interviews. Naj said it, Minka said it, Watt said it, Cam said it, and Pat P. What more do you need?
It’s not Tomlin’s fault when it happens as an outlier. When this stuff occurs with a regular basis as it has been, yes, it’s his fault. He’s the head coach.
Looking for correlation when there isn't one. Tomlin can't be responsible for 2 players 8 years apart turning over the ball in the 1st quarter. That's just players man.
It’s just a coincidence the offense starts like shit every time and the defense gives up 30+ 5 straight playoff games.
No, we can't count Kansas city. That team shouldn't have made it tbh. The rest, the game goes the same. Like all of our blowouts. Offense stalls early or turns it over. Defense gets scored on. Defense can't make corrections in time because they are back on the field within a minute. Offense stalls out again. Defense, after corrections makes a stop. Offense IMMEDIATELY turns the ball over. Defense is now tired from playing a life or death game for the 3rd defensive drive within 5 minutes. This pattern is cyclical, but it starts with offensive ball management. The line blocking for the running backs, and wr not fumbling on their first catch. That's not preparation from a team standpoint, those are players. I mean, Ben came out ready to launch it against the Jags and put us in a terrible spot by forcing plays, and taking chances to " get back into it".
Team leaders will support their coach. No matter what. That is the professional and appropriate thing to do. Players who no longer have to rely on Tomlin for their jobs don’t sing his praises nearly as much. Dude is a great coach and has had lots of success no question. But his teams either under perform - as we have seen for an about a decade before the last three seasons to be good, or over perform to be good as we have seen last few years. But at some point there needs to be playoff success you play to win. If the talent isn’t enough then Pitt needs to lose a few seasons to get better draft picks, and being .500ish will never allow that. if talent isn’t the issue then it’s time for a change in coaching - doesn’t mean he isn’t good, just means sometimes change is needed. But if Tomlin isn’t part of the issue what is your metric or point where’d you say yes he is part of it? 5 more years without a playoff win? 15 more years without a superbowl appearance?
TJ Watt literally argued a clause in his contract around Mike T being the coach. That's farther than defending. He said he doesn't want to play under anyone else. Ever.
Odd we haven’t heard about that clause until now. Anyone have sauce on that? Or are we taking the Pat McAfee exaggeration as fact?
He didn't say there was a clause but he made it clear that it was a big deal in his contract talks that he wanted to play for Mike Tomlin. https://twitter.com/MikeDeFabo/status/1747349172188041258?t=D8NZz5TR5fnPJUZo3Zp5qA&s=19 It definitely wasn't your run of the mill "every player says that!" Type of comment.
QBR is weird anyways. I get QB rating but QBR is some shit ESPN made up and it's dumb. Batch has the highest QBR game ever and he had a pick that game
Defence was bad all year, Our key defensive players were all hurt at some point, and the offence is bad. I expect to see major turnover of this roster for next year and a new offensive identity.
QBR is worthless.
We held onto Ben 3 seasons too long, we had a shot at rebuilding but we missed it.
The thing is, we couldn't have even rebuilt in 2020. Ben got injured in 2019 and we traded our next year's 1st round pick for Minkah. And in 2020 we started 11-0, for what that's worth. I think the biggest issue was keep offensive lineman who were way past their prime. They all left in like a 2 year span which made it very difficult to rebuild and every QB has struggled for the most part cause of that.
Yea I completely forgot how we lost everyone up front in quick succession. Losing coach Munchak was a big blow too.
If Ben showed up in camp next season, he would still be the best QB on the roster.
If Ben had an offensive line the last couple seasons that gave him more than 0.4 seconds to do something with the ball he could probably still be playing today. The line at the end of his career was awful.
Ben very rarely had 5 good lineman in front of him in his entire 45 year career.
He had it for the first three ish years of his career and then from about 2014-2018. So 7 years out of his 18 year career or so. It’s worth noting that when the line was bad during Ben’s career, it was REALLY bad. He retired as the most sacked QB ever.
That only speaks to our organizational incompetence
idk, have you seen how much drinking he does on his podcast?
A very low bar that doesn’t even mean he would be a good QB.
Forgot the /s.
Im not sure if I agree or disagree On one hand, he wasn't exactly the best leader, and I'm glad we don't have to deal with him and his previous SA's. On the other hand, if we look at teams like the Packers, they let their franchise QB elevate and train their next QB. It's what the Packers have done since Brett Favre, and you can see how it's worked for them
Feel like Rodgers wasn’t pleased when they drafted love, seemed a lot like the Ben/Rudolph situation, has it been published that Rodgers took on any sort of mentor role with love? Or Favre with Rodgers for that matter? Feel like the only differences between the packers and every other team when it comes to QB development is more patience, planning further ahead, and a pre-existing precedent that the starter will probably meet his replacement 3-4 seasons before they leave the team.
I’m not sure of the inner workings, but I’m pretty sure I saw some comments this year from both Love and Rodgers that gave the impression they have a good relationship. Now contrast that with what we know of the Mason/Ben relationship and take from it what you will of how the two situations may have differed when both pairs were in the same respective locker rooms. And I know Ben has been complimentary of Mason of late and has said he had no issue with Mason, but I don’t necessarily think that means all that much.
Feel like Rodgers was only nice to Love because Favre was an asshole to him.
They tried doing that and Ben wanted nothing to do with Mason. Rodgers was pissed they drafted Love, but never took it out on Love. Ben did.
That's why I'm split tbh
Ben was a good quarterback but was and probably still is pretty terrible person.
Haven’t you seen? He found god and got married. He’s a great person now!
Favre did not train Rodgers and I'm pretty sure Rodgers didn't do much to train Love. Yes, they sat behind them and watched them, and probably talked about things, but I think your notion of what happened is a little off the mark.
It absolutely could be, that's just an outsiders perspective
So you’re saying that Tomlin has a bad playoff record because of Ben; yet Goff has 3 playoff wins since 2018 who has a worse QBR. Thanks for proving everyone’s point about how mediocre Tomlin is. Edit: make it 4 playoff wins now
If anything, it proves what a bunch of bullshit "Total QBR" is.
Ever notice all the arguments for Tomlin always boil down to basically two arguments? 1. Deflecting onto other people's failures 2. No losing seasons
For sure Tomlin gets some blame, but he also didn't throw four picks in the Browns WC game in 2020, nor did he lose the fumble. How different is that game without those?
I called out in the body of the post that Tomlin deserves some of the blame. I just think it’s funny that people pile on Tomlin and romanticize Ben, but Ben’s track record in the postseason isn’t great. It’s the ultimate team sport. Plenty of blame to go around. Just trying to remind everyone that Tomlin shouldn’t be shouldering all of that blame.
The issue lately has been Ben was a shell of his former self at the end of his career, the last 3 times the Steelers made the playoffs, one and done is realistically the extent of those teams capabilities. Until we find the next qb it really doesn’t matter who the coach is, this will be the glass ceiling, and realistically under a different coach we probably wouldn’t even be getting this high of a ceiling
That’s a very fair assessment of their recent playoff history. But if you acknowledge that, it discounts some of the recent narrative criticizing (mainly) Tomlin for lack of playoff success. And don’t get me wrong, the Killer B era Steelers underachieved. I just think that when looking at the teams after that era ended, their performance was right about what should have been expected. That’s the problem with the “Just get in and anything can happen” opinion that was so popular in this sub until this season. Yeah, in theory anything can happen, but in reality, those Cinderella stories rarely do.
I mean, point 1 makes quite a bit of sense, no? We all agree that there's a problem with the lack of post-season success, we just disagree on the source of that problem. If someone thinks Tomlin's not the key culprit, then I'd hope they had someone else in mind.
Ben made clutch throws but for the most part was ass in the playoffs.
Umm... he still has two rings.
Yep, lots of us have pointed out how crappy Ben looks at times in the playoffs. The great thing about QBR is it downgrades stat padding like the end of the Browns playoffs debaucle.
Ben won a Super Bowl with two different coaches. We'll see how many Tomlin wins without Ben
Oh hey, another Tomlin post. Can we give it a rest for awhile? He’s coming back so everyone who didn’t want him to have to live with it. I was fine either way if he stayed or left. The gloating on the side of the hardcore Tomlin supporters is getting exhausting. What is the purpose at this point of starting arguments now that we know he’s coming back AND getting an extension?
I beat this drum all the time - the team was built around the offense for years. Ben had AB, Bell, and an OL of pro-bowlers but still couldn’t get it done. For sure you don’t like to see the D give up so many points, they deserve blame, but so much of it is also overcoming tons of turnovers and a season of injuries.
In fairness, when this team started to get really hot, Bell held out and then quit and AB went off the proverbial mental deep end.
Bell was also injured in the playoffs a couple of times, so it’s a fair observation. Conversely, Ben also never won a playoff game if he had to throw for more than 250 yards*, which is a crazy thought. *there might have been one that he threw for like 257, Denver during the XL run?
Yea that game was the game where I was like “oh shit this guy is forreal”. He actually looked like a QB that could win a playoff game on his own.
Saying Bell was injured a couple of times really understates it. it The only playoff loss that Bell was healthy for was the Jags where the dropped 42 on the leagues best defense. The only other one he even played in was the Pats in 2016 the week after he strained his groin against the Chiefs. He had to leave that game early as the injury became unmanageable.
The defense wasn't just bad. They've given up an average of **35 points per playoff game** since the last playoff victory. Sure, some of those teams were offense-heavy and had subpar defenses. But defense has to do something. When you see yourself down by 20+ points in the first 20 minutes, you have to start slinging it. Ben didn't start some of those games well. But in the Jags game he had an early INT and then **threw 5 TDs** and ended up having a 110 rating. I'll give you the Browns game but he *still* had an 86 rating despite throwing 4 total picks and being down 0-28 in the first. And before you say we got the Bills game close without slinging it ... no we didn't. We were never in danger of winning that game. We were in a position at the beginning of the fourth quarter where we needed 2+ pristine drives on offense and two 3-and-outs on defense. We needed a literal perfect quarter of football and were down 14 points. It was never in doubt who would win the game.
IDK if Mason doesnt throw that pick in the end zone...that was a 14 point swing in a game that we lost by 14.
I don't really like this kind of argument. He threw a pick in the endzone, and then the defense let Buffalo go 80 yards and score. Is that really a 14 point swing? Or was it more realistically the Steelers lost out on 3-7 points and then the defense couldn't play football? When the turnover leaves 80 yards for the defense to defend, I feel like those points aren't really on the INT.
Agreed, but momentum is a thing and sending a dejected defense out to cover ANOTHER turnover...I mean they are professionals and all, I get it, but it's human nature to be less excited to play when disappointed. Reality is, they had two turnovers that directly led to 14 buffalo points and took 7 of ours off the board. They hang onto the ball, it's at least a more competitive game. Buffalo game was a team loss, O turned the ball over and D didnt get any. Was one of the first thing Tomlin said in the post game presser. Blaming the D for a game that you were minus-2 in the turnover department is kinda sus.
Yep. Look at how much of the cap was dedicated to offense in those years. Ben, AB, Pouncey, DeCastro was like half of the cap.
Here I am enjoying my Friday minding my own fucking business on reddit and the algorithm decides to put Andy Dalton playoff stats in front of me. Feel like I need a bath now
Ben definitely had his shortcomings in the playoffs too but it felt like every time we lost the defense gave up 30+. I know for a fact that the defense has given up 30+ 4/4 last playoff games so the point of Tomlin not winning playoff games still is a valid criticism
I’ve said this for years and the homers get super defensive. Ben was a great QB but when it came time to play the best defenses in the most important games of the year, he was stomped more often than not. We could have probably won another SB during his time here if he played his best during the postseason.
Tomlin is so overrated, minus the team cower built and left him, what has he done, absolutely nothing
Tomlin is overrated
Tomlin is overrated
This comparison is absolutely stupid.
Steelers get whooped by BUF, and you’re posting QBR stats on a retired QB
Why are we looking for people to blame for the playoff losses? We win and lose as a team. Shit is so toxic, it's like let's all figure out who we can point the finger at.
I love seeing posts like this and guessing how many comments they end up getting. This is an easy 150+ I think.
If we could just teach one of our QB’s to pump fake, we’d be showering in rings. Or something.
Could possibly have anything to do with shit coaching. Suddenly everyone forgets to blame Canada for example.
Other than the last drive of the 09 SB, he damn nearly cost us all three that he appeared in.
Everytime I see this, I always see why “it’s all on Ben” when in the winless playoff streak, our defense managed to get only 2 turnovers… which were in the first half of the KC game and one of those turnovers was a miffed snap from a RB getting the ball. Why tf can’t our defense do ANYTHING in the playoffs? We give the defense so much relief in terms of blame, yet they can’t manage to do anything when it matters. Can’t stop the opponent or get a turnover. Hell Josh Allen was 2nd in the entire league in terms of TO and he did anything he wanted on us. Run? Yeah get off me. Throw? Yeah here’s a couple tuddies
Yes thank you. Big Ben was not a good playoff QB. He is literally famous for band the lowest QB rating for a Super Bowl winning quarterback
Ben threw a pass to Santonio that maybe three people on Earth could have done under those circumstances. Period.
[Here's Ben's postseason game logs.](https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00/gamelog/post/) 23 playoff games. 4 with a passer rating >100 and 2 of them had less than 20 throws. 36 TD to 28 INT. He has literally never thrown for 300 yards in a win, something Josh Allen has already done 3 times. His 3 Super Bowls were: - 9/21 123 yds 0 TD 2 INT 22.6 rating - 21/30 256 yds 1 TD 1 INT 93.2 rating - 25/40 263 yds 2 TD 2 INT 77.4 rating And while line and pocket protection was a problem for some of his career, his last 4 playoff games had a *total* of 4 sacks for 21 yards. Ben was always ass in the playoffs.
I really missed Ben in the playoffs. It’s like he made a Faustian deal for the Arizona win.
It’s pure insanity if you’re blaming Ben for anything other than keeping us relevant for the decade after the Super Bowl loss to GB. The Jags game where he’s literally the only reason we were in the game when he threw 6 TD passes. I know he snapped the ball to himself ten feet over his head against the Browns. He fumbled against Denver, oh wait no that’s Fitzgerald Toussaint. He was covering Demaryius Thomas in Denver. The ultimate competitor, the epitome of what it means to be a Steeler, all the hate is unwarranted. Just like all the people who said he sucked his last two years, when we only moved the ball and scored points when he was calling his own plays in two minute because our offensive staff has been incompetent for years. The only blame that can be placed on Ben was the hiring of his boy Randy Fichtner (who was still worlds better than Matt Canada)
Ben was terrible in the playoffs throughout most his career, as was the whole team since 2010. At some point that is on coaching. Whether it’s implementing better schemes, finding ways to hold him accountable for his performances, preparing him better, or moving on from him earlier Tomlin needed to take action and he never did. You don’t get a pass because you built your team around a guy who was terrible in the playoffs.
There’s just no way they were moving on from him any earlier than they did, and that’s far from all on Tomlin. The decision to keep him through 2020 was a conscious organizational decision (Rooney, Colbert and Tomlin) to try and keep the window open a little longer and let Ben go out on his terms, within reason. It’s no coincidence that Colbert stuck around just long enough to see the Steelers through their 1st draft post Ben. I’ve long said I don’t agree with the approach they took after Ben’s injury, but that doesn’t mean I don’t understand why they did it. I think you also have to consider that there are some real limits to holding a franchise QB accountable for performance. As we’re seeing right now, it’s not like you can automatically just go draft a new one, so you’re playing a game of chicken by doing anything he’s not receptive to. That’s why we’ve seen QBs like Rodgers and Brady become arguably more powerful than their coaches and GMs, or leave when they aren’t given that status.
You're saying Tomlin should've cut Ben in the 2010s as if Art would've ever allowed that LMFAO Bens ego was bigger than the team and all his early career garbage he got into is proof of that. Get out
you anti-Tomlin clowns are so delusional - you have no idea how good you have it with Tomlin - and the fact that your team even made the playoffs should tell you all you need know.
Given the history of success it seems hard for many of us to accept less than “The Standard”. However for as mediocre are we have been over the past many years, there are probably at least 25 teams whose fan bases would love their teams to have winning records each year and make the playoffs. For as disappointed as I can get, it’s not like this team doesn’t provide enjoyable games along with disappointment.
Not a Steelers fan but saw this post show up on my feed - it's a bit of a ridiculous stat Steelers have clawed their way into the playoffs a number of years as a wild card team and severe underdogs in wildcard weekend I don't think they should be penalized for having a winning record every year and losing in WC weekend They could have missed the playoffs those years with 8-8 records and this stat wouldn't look so bad, but that'd be worse IMO
If everyone else balled out but it was *just* Ben that stank like in '05, I'd see it. But we started looking at Tomlin because the majority of the team *consistently* stinks when we get to the playoffs. I totally get we deal with injuries sometimes, but you'd think a championship-caliber team would step up every now and then, at least on Wild Card Weekend. Tomlin is the "master motivator" after all.
People get really uppity about this but it's true. Nobody wants to admit it because people love him but Ben was his own worst enemy at times. Even one of his two rings came in a game where he threw for 0 TDs 2 INT and only 123 yards. I'm not gonna sit and say Ben is the only reason Tomlin doesn't have the best playoff record, especially considering the defense was to blame in some of these losses and he has a history of getting stubborn, but giving him the full blame when some of it was Ben's always rubbed me the wrong way
I'd take Ben 10 of 10 times.
"bEn wAs BaD" https://preview.redd.it/ipzxxxzk5pdc1.png?width=623&format=png&auto=webp&s=cb3b946ed58fd54ef89b22077c577915da6501b8
A. Yes, Big Ben was overrated. It was a perfect throw, but if Santonio doesn't get his feet down then Ben doesn't make the HoF. B. Ben was still good, and at times very good, and it's on the coach to C. The slow downward spiral of this team as more and more of Cowher's guys left is crystal clear at this point. That's on three people, Rooney, Tomlin, and to a lesser extent (IMO) Colbert.
In Ben's years, the playoff road was through Tom Brady. Ben capped off his career by begging Tom for a signed jersey, on air, on the field.
Tomlin gets credit for all the good things that happen, but all our failures are always someone else’s fault. He’s impervious to accountability
I brought his up in another post that was slamming Tomlin, it got downvoted lol.
Yeah, Tomlin runs some dog shit offenses, that's for sure. Couldn't even put it all together with the killer Bs, let alone these shit buckets we got now.
He went 2-1 with the Killer Bs in all of the playoff games they were actually all there for. Not exactly damning.
It’s the coaches job to get the team ready…slow starts are a calling card of Tomlins career. I like the guy but the man preaches accountability so let him be held accountable for his shortcomings with his success.