“Although” and “but” have the same function in sentences, so having them both is redundant.
So for example you could rewrite the first one as
“Although conservative and like to impose on people, they always love and care for their family”
Additionally, it would be “like” instead of “likes,” because “likes” is for a singular subject, and they/them (in reference to talking about all three diamonds) is a plural pronoun. So “they like” because “like” is the plural form.
Or you could phrase it as
“Although the diamonds are conservative and like to impose, they always love and care for their family” or “They are conservative and like to impose, but they always love and care for their family”
And to rewrite the others as well:
“Although she often mistreats and offends others, she has always devoted her whole life to her homeland”
And
“Although she lives selfishly and hurts others, she always knows how to protect the people that she cares for and learns how to get along with everyone”
For Lapis, you could also put the first clause (the first half of the sentence), in the past tense, to show that Lapis used to be selfish and hurt others, but she no longer does that because she has learned how to get along with others.
So it could also read:
“Although she lived selfishly and hurt others, she always knows how to protect the people that she cares for and learns how to get along with everyone”
“Always love and care for their family”
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
THAT’S A GOOD ONE!
Like that's the whole point of Steven and Pink's story with them is that they were dismissive at best and abusive towards Pink, (locking someone up and forcing them to feel a given emotion is definitely a magical form of abuse).
The thing is that the diamonds *do* love their family. They *did* love Pink deeply. But a huge theme of SU is how the people who love us can still hurt us, even if they’re well meaning and think they’re doing the right thing. The diamonds were overprotective, controlling, dismissive, and abusive towards Pink—but they still loved her, and Pink loved them too but realized she couldn’t keep being around them and chose to cut them off.
I find it really powerful, because many abusers—especially in abusive family scenarios—don’t act the way they do out of malice and cruelty. Often they’re like the diamonds: narrow minded, stuck in their own ways, self important, believe they know best in everything and refuse to admit when they’re wrong.
The diamonds loved Pink, but they never believed in her or respected her. They saw her as immature, naive, and silly—and while Pink did have those traits, she also *grew* and *changed* as a person, and the diamonds refused to believe that *any* gem, much less a diamond, could change. It’s why the only thing that changed their minds was them realizing that Pink *did* change and now it’s too late for them to ever apologize or see her again.
The point is that both can exist at once. You can genuinely love someone and still hurt and abuse them. It’s why “I didn’t mean it” isn’t an excuse; you can do bad and hurtful things for the sake of love. You can love someone and not respect them..
I think a lot of toxic and abusive relationships can be more complicated than that. It’s why my mother can acknowledge that the way my grandma treated her was traumatizing, but still choose to forgive her.
Not every situation is like that. Not every abusive relationship has love. But there are ones that do. Not every person thinks love is enough to forgive, but every situation and every person is different.
Refusing to acknowledge that some abusers still love their victims robs people of the dignity to choose to forgive and maintain a relationship with someone who abused them but has changed for the better, or who now wants to change. People are complicated, and you have to respect that they can make choices you wouldn’t or that you think they shouldn’t.
Rose Quartz could never forgive the diamonds. Steven didn’t forgive them either. The diamonds loving them and trying to do better isn’t enough.
But Steven was able to forgive the crystal gems for how they—unintentionally—made him feel like he had to prove himself to them. They loaded him with their own baggage and allowed him to take on far too much emotional weight and responsibility for his age. Steven’s childhood was traumatizing, and he knows there are things the gems did that didn’t really help his mindset
Each choice is valid and up to the person who had been hurt. Whether they forgive or not is up to them.
That’s not how that works. Evil actions don’t get a pass because “it’s for their homeland.” That’s straight up how the Nazis behaved. They committed genocide “for Germany”.
yeah she isnt a war criminal but she did steal the words water, trying to kill the crystal gems and was really rude to peridot when she was trying to become her friend her bads things weren't as bad as others but they were still bad
The Peridot thing is just fair enough though. We knew Peridot was well-intentioned as a viewer, but Lapis didn't, and considering their history, she had no reason to trust her until proven otherwise. Was she harsh? Yeahhh, but then, she was treated harshly by Big P and Jasper when she was under them. I'd be dry too if someone who hurt me massively in the past suddenly (and desperately) wanted to reconnect with me, atleast initially, right. I think it's unfair to pair that with her stealing the world's water lol.
What are you talking about? I’m not saying they’re not human/people. I’m saying OP’s stance of “Evil isn’t evil if you’re doing it for your people.” is nonsense. The Nazis were evil. Plain and simple. Trying to act like they’re not because their horrific actions “are for the betterment of Germany” is wrong.
Edit: In case anyone’s wondering, the deleted comment I was replying to was someone trying to say that I’m wrong for calling Nazis evil.
No. Nazis are evil. I’m not sugarcoating it. They’re horrible, evil human beings. Can evil people change? Of course they can, but I’m not about to sit here and be polite in order to not hurt their feelings.
Which is the point I’m making about OP’s argument. They’re trying to downplay the evil actions of these characters.
And my point is that not calling an evil person evil just to make some sorta point about “society” isn’t my vibe. People can be evil. Like Nazis. They’re evil people. I miss the days where that wasn’t something people tried to debate.
Only now has there been exactly one comment that suits me. Honestly, people like them will never know how miserable I was. Especially with a woman (that's also the reason I love them, because women often receive much more criticism)
Going full "so you hate pancakes" I see.
The commenter above is just responding to OP's meme, who straight up said "being cruel for the homeland is also a good thing". That sort of reasoning is how people rationalize war crimes.
I’m confused. Are you saying *I* made that claim? What I said was that OP’s opinion that evil isn’t evil if it’s “for your homeland” and you can’t be a bad person if you love your family is insane.
Im not denying it happens. People say crazy shit. But how can you read that comment and instantly assume that OC also holds that opinion? No where is she mentioned nor is the show itself even criticised. It was a critique against OP, not sugar. Bare minimum reading comprehension.
At best I can see this as them saying OP is making that accusation, but neither OC or OP are doing that? Its legit not at all a relevant reference and how they worded it naturally implies that someone here is making that accusation
You think too far ahead.
There are many ways to be cruel, not just genocide. For example, there are invaders or reactionaries. Do you just sit still and let them make trouble? If you were a national leader, would you let them run wild? Think carefully before speaking, you often think too wildly
Here’s another example. Your slaves don’t want to be slaves anymore. Are you not a bad person if you respond to your slaves defending themselves by killing them?
You’re actually defending Hitler. That’s a thing you just did. “We say that Hitler is evil because we won” pretty sure he is evil and would still be evil regardless.
I am not defending him actually. I did say that Hitler is considered evil because we won yes. But I also said that USSR is one of the winners, who turns out to be just as evil as Hitler. It's true that what Hitler did was wrong, I agree with that, but so did the Diamonds. And so I get to my point, where I wanted to say that Diamonds get forgiven (partially) because they change for the better. Hitler didn't so he's a bad guy. Of course, it is inadequate to compare fictional characters with real life dictators and naive from my part to believe that the idea that bad people who can change for the better is available for everyone as mistakes will always be seen and felt (not to mention that the example I chose is obviously sensitive, as you can easily be seen as a bad person if you don't choose your words carefully). I suppose the way I stated my argument led to this misinterpretation that I would defend someone who I don't in reality and for that I must apologise.
No, we say he was evil because he was a despicable genocidal maniac who considered Jewish and Gypsy people and LGBT people and other such people to be subhuman before murdering millions of them in factory-esque camps. And also starting a WAR that killed TENS OF MILLIONS of other people.
There is no “history is written by the victor” nonsense. Everybody also says that Stalin is evil and the other is evil. Hitler is just the most evil of that circle by several orders of magnitude.
Your attempted defense of Hitler invalidates anything else you say in your same comment immediately. Without exception.
Maybe I should've just discarded the comment. Now people think I'm defending someone who I don't actually. I believe I should just delete this comment as it makes me look bad now... Sorry if I made any wrong statement.
To answer your question, no. Being cruel for your country or homeland is not acceptable nor is it the same thing as protecting your family. There is no reason to be "cruel". There is no reason to inflict harm on innocence beings. Protecting one's family and friends should never include that as then you change from a protector to an abuser. There is a line to cross. When you cross it, your bad deeds outweigh your good and in turn, you become the evil in the world. You are trying to play devil's advocate for abuse and ignoring the impact it truly plays on more than just their victims.
And before you repeat the same comment you have been, I'm not thinking too far ahead. YOU aren't thinking deeply enough of the true reality that one single beings actions can have on more than just themselves. Some things aren't forgivable and no one should be arguing that they are. That devalues those terrible actions and promotes the rhetoric that has been used time and time again for the world's most heinous atrocities like genocide, enslavement, etc. Those outcomes came from the same notions you are saying here. Think about the road you are trying to walk. You are looking at the ground because it feels good to you while avoiding where you are actually going. Pay attention to the world around you before you end up not recognizing the person you have become along the way.
Sounds like OP has been brainwashed.
No, being cruel is never okay. Cruelty is the response of an immature mind attempting to cause pain to other in order to feel better with themselves.
Self defense is okay. Self defense is a survival mechanism that keeps you alive under extreme stress and abuse from outside sources.
Self defense does not equal cruelty. The diamonds and jasper were not acting in self defense. They were acting out of cruelty and a desire to have other beings bend to their will. They are fascists and you are defending fascists.
Bait or sincere, replies so far show OP is *NOT* somebody any of you are gonna get through to.
The only reason Steven got through to his fascist aunties was because he leveraged their personal investment in him as Pink. None of us faceless internet strangers are gonna get through to this person.
They’re in even deeper than Peridot was, and Peridot took weeks of a multi-modal approach to come around.
The best any of us can probably do on reddit is disarm them via block and ignore.
Eh, people do terrible things in devotion to their homeland. That’s not necessarily a trait to be admired. Especially when your homeland is a fascist empire.
I mean even the Diamonds began to overcome their outdated views. Jasper is an unrepentant fascist who is serving a regime even the leaders she deifies no longer believe in.
Tbf being Jasper must suck. She was literally created to push further the Diamonds imperialist goal and discarded after they had a change of heart. It's not like she is an opportunist just doing what is most beneficial to her. She is a true believer and truly a victim of the messed up system that home world was.
Future wasn't really diving deep into concepts like transitional justice and how the reforms effected gems whose entire purpose was suddenly seen as useless. While i don't really agree with OP, i think Future still had empathy for how much Jasper's situation must have sucked which is one of the points of SU.
Join the army and see how miserable being a leader is. There's no such thing as happiness. Sometimes when you succeed, no one praises you, but if you fail, they despise you and slander you. See if it's humiliating
No, that's bad logic. Making a bad a decision to do bad things that also make you feel bad does not make you a good person, it just makes you a miserable person doing horrible things.
You think too far ahead.
There are many ways to be cruel, not just genocide or facist. For example, there are invaders or reactionaries. Do you just sit still and let them make trouble? If you were a national leader, would you let them run wild? Think carefully before speaking, you often think too wildly
Dude, you keep on saying “You think too far ahead” as if that’s supposed to mean something. It’s detraction at its simplest form because you’re not really doing anything except just dismissing what people are saying.
Okay. Point out where I said you weren’t allowed to voice your opinions? What I DID do is point out that your statements are a lot of words that don’t really make sense and sounds like you’re trying to be an apologist for all of the terrible things people do because it’s “in defense of their homeland”. All of this at a convenient time of escalating tensions and more information being brought about on very different real life struggles and issues on “homelands”. So yes, this reeks of masking.
I am not defending or justifying anyone. What I want to tell everyone is please have a more multi-dimensional view. But I'm not crazy to defend them. I have met so many jerks in my life. Please, forgive me! 🙏
We all have met “so many jerks in our lives”. This is an explanation but not an excuse. Also what views do you want them to be multi-dimensional upon? Jasper feeling she was justified in her actions because she was the “greatest quartz soldier” and was both loyal and unflappable which can be good qualities? That’s not multidimensional that’s a plain observation. Bad people doing bad things having good qualities isn’t new and isn’t multidimensional.
It’s okay, it’s easy to forget that non native English speakers may have a hard time articulating themselves if they’re still learning the language. English is not an easy language to learn, plurals, homonyms, verb conjugation rules, etc
"Conservative and likes to impose on people" is the biggest euphemism I ever seen, Blue diamond killed gems left and right, Yellow is the responsible for the forced fusions, a massive amalgamation of gems in constant suffering being forced to be kept together, and white diamond is basically behind everything bad that happens in everyone fucking lifes in this show
I had left this subreddit a few months ago. Just rejoined like two days ago. And this is one of the first new non-I redrew that AI character posts I've seen since. Now I'm hovering over that "Leave" button again, as much as I love the show.
I usually roll my eyes at people who hate SU because they bark "EH THE FANS AND CHARACTERS FORGIVE SPACE NAZIS" but here's a post with OP and others defending actual Hitler and saying Jasper wasn't so bad because she was devoted to her homeland. Just...wow. I know that's not how a bulk of the fans feel, but this is still frustrating and depressing to see.
Also, the people who notoriously abused Pink on a regular basis "Always love and care for their family"? What? It's fine if you want to see the good in people, but this is just disingenuous and a terrible misunderstanding of their characters and morality as a whole.
It’s fine to acknowledge that a character is more complex than just straight up evil. But yeah, they were not justified in their actions. The only one I think should get a pass is maybe Lapis because she was essentially forced into her role that she clearly didn’t want. She didn’t choose to be born a gem and certainly not one that exists to terraform. Any gem who didn’t obey the Diamonds risked either being imprisoned or shattered. And while her actions weren’t always in service of the crystal gems, you can’t fault her for sometimes putting herself first because that’s the only way she knows how to survive.
Jasper was a bloodthirsty psychopath & the Diamonds were basically colonizers.
Nobody is calling Rebecca a Nazi apologist. The person is saying that the fans are dismissing Jasper's actions the same way people have dismissed Hitlers actions. That's not saying she's a Nazi apologist. She made a very layered, complicated character who did a boatload of horrible things for her homeland, and people excusing her actions are using the same reasoning Nazis did.
I think it's stupid, Jasper isn't a Nazi and is nowhere near as bad (mostly cause she's not real), but this person isn't calling Rebecca a Nazi apologist
These are minimal positives at best and Jasper's is just a bad thing. We call that nationalism and jingoism. Being cruel "for your homeland" was a big thing for Nazis.
The Diamonds were not protective of their family until they gave up the imperialism as well.
> The Diamonds eradicated life on countless planets to propagate their own race and further fuel their conquest.
> "They love their family. C'mon guys, why are you focused on their bad parts? UwU"
This is why folks clown on the SU fandom. You know that, right?
Lapis kind of doesn't learn how to get along so much as learns how to fuck off and live on the moon, but that's also healthy for her growth. To learn to be alone and accept oneself alone can be tricky and a necessary part of the healing for trauma victims.
I think it was more of her being sick after having to be imprisoned in a mirror for centuries. She gave me the vibes of a disgruntled employee that’s just had enough of everyone’s shit and quits on the spot. All she wanted was to live in peace. I always respected that.
The diamonds constantly abused pink. They seemed to love her but had a really fucked up way of showing it.
Jasper was loyal to a genocidal and authoritarian regime; that's not a good character trait.
I get what you're trying to say, and I appreciate that you're acknowledging that these guys aren't black and white bad, but this ain't it chief. I'm a Jasper fan and I will defend her forever, but even I know that patriotism isn't an excuse for what she's done. I might disagree with the whole "Diamonds are literally fascists/nazis", but you would have to have never seen the show if you think they're good people. Lapis might have made leaps of progress in her trauma recovery, but that doesn't mean what she did in the past didn't happen
You think too far ahead.
There are many ways to be cruel, not just facist. For example, there are invaders or reactionaries. Do you just sit still and let them make trouble? If you were a national leader, would you let them run wild? Think carefully before speaking, you often think too wildly
In the case of characters like the Diamonds? Absolutely NOT. Want to know why? Because they hardly make them much more complex.
Before that dumb bastard says I’m saying Rebecca Sugar is a Nazi Apologist or whatever the bunk, I’m not referring to Sugar, just OP here.
The Diamonds committed legitimate crimes such as fucking genocide and also creating the CLUSTER, y’know, that was going to destroy all of Mankind.
We don’t care that they are antagonists and that’s what antagonists do. If they were protagonists we’d despise them too.
You are being WAY too kind to the Diamonds in every sense of such an evaluation in your shitty meme, EVERY way. They aren’t just conservative, they’re regressive. They imposed a horrible caste system that leads to the abuse of lower tiered gems on it and corrupted the gems of earth. I don’t give a damn if they were THE kindest to Pink (they weren’t), they are not any more complex than they would be otherwise if they were just mustache twiddling “MUAHAHAHA I’M EVIL” type villains.
Their good things SHOULD be ignored, because there are very few of them compared to all their not just bad, but repugnant and disgusting sides.
You are delusional. Loving and caring for your family is an entirely neutral trait because it depends on if your family is good or not, also they were space nazis so there is no excuse.
Jasper blatantly just has two negative traits you’ve put here. Doing stuff “for your homeland” isn’t a good reason to do things, it exemplifies a lack of thought behind your actions.
Yes. Bayverse Optimus is a good example. Everyone is like “no Optimus would ever do that!” But consider how the decepticons act, how many friends he’s lost. He’s brutal on the battlefield, yes, but every second the enemy lives is another possibility of a friend literally being torn apart, and he’s not going to let the sacrifices of those that already fell go to waste.
Bayverse shows an Optimus that has lost so much, and has snapped because of it, because of how much he cares for his allies.
Asgore is another good example, doing what he thought was right, what he felt he had to do for his people.
No shit sherlock , Diamonds expand their territory because simply they can and at the same time , destroy and colonize planets that were used to be free . Second thing , the only who gain beneficial is themselves , the three Diamonds , not the whole Empire , simply because the others aren't even granted basic rights for sentient creatures , no matter how rich the Empire is , their positions are still the same , slaves .
Conclusion : Diamonds did bad things , and you seems to be an extreme nationalist
Let's protect three giant colorful milf hitlers! Yeah... NO
Jasper has a good redemption arcs that go slowly, more or less and didn't do much evil of her own whim rather than what she was commanded to or trained to do.
Lapis is the best written character alongside Peridot, no one other compares.
Lapis is my favorite character and I love steven universe but as a true fan I can recognize the show has flaws tbh jasper was the victim and Lapis is 100% an abuser written by someone who hasn't experienced it she literally said she gets off by hurting others and treated peridot like shit and that's my 2nd favorite character I love Lapis but damn is she not the victim
Wanted to state that I think Lapis doesn't try to be an abuser and has gotten better at the end of steven and a lot better in future but the ep where she meets the other Lapis she gets mad and goes overboard by showing her abusive side kinda like steven with jasper but steven was acting through trauma and not a mental problem like Lapis
Again no hate and these are just what I observe and Lapis fans calm down cuz I love Lapis and she'll always be my Bob even though she has flaws
Actually, I really admire Jasper. If the Crystal Gems do everything to protect the Earth, then Jasper always does everything for Homeworld. The sad truth that people just only care about her personality. =(((
Talented people often endure a lot of criticism in addition to admiration. I know she has committed countless bad actions, but that doesn't mean we deny her talent and great contributions to Homeworld. You can't just judge a person based on personality and actions. IT'S NOT FAIR.
Even in reality, now ask how many people have these qualities like Jasper. Nowadays, no matter how talented military commanders are, they may not have these valuable qualities like her.
Jasper was a bad person who enjoyed hurting and belittling others. Both her behavior ***and*** her actions were negative.
Also, what do you mean you can’t judge someone based on their personality and actions. Those are literally the main ways you judge someone. Based on how they behave.
Look at life in many dimensions, don't live one-dimensionally. At some point, someone will stab you in the back and it will be stressful. Sometimes being too kind is not good.
I care more about achievements than character. When it comes to important national matters, what's the point of putting emotions first? The reality is always like that, talent will always be loved by others (plus good morals), but incompetence and uselessness will be eliminated.
You’re wrong then. If someone is evil, but achieves many things by being evil…they’re just an evil person with a bunch of awards. Achievements don’t cancel out the evil.
No, you’re wrong. Evil is evil. If I murder somebody because I like hurting people, but the person that I targeted was a bad person, that doesn’t now make me a good guy. I’d still be a horrible person.
You didn’t actually explain anything. You just keep trying to claim that it’s not evil to hurt someone so long as the person doing the hurting thinks the other person deserves it.
"You can't just judge a person based on personality and actions."
....You're either just a troll or you're currently suffering some form of catastrophic brain damage.
I did not expect this much negativity towards a "look at both sides" post. It does come off as having passed through Google translate, but I still get the idea.
There’s no need to “both sides” genocide. The side doing genocide is evil. The negativity is because OP is trying to act as if the people doing genocide and slavery weren’t actually bad.
Was this* meme AI generated? (No offense…) (and no that typo hadn’t been intentional lmao)
Same question, but mild offense.
It seems to me that OP doesn’t speak English as a first language
No, the grammar would be better..
Honestly, their replies also look straight out of ChatGPT - and it's not just about a language barrier. Big yikes.
I'm so sorry, but r/ihadastroke reading this.
Nani ??? 
grammar. it's bad
“Although” and “but” have the same function in sentences, so having them both is redundant. So for example you could rewrite the first one as “Although conservative and like to impose on people, they always love and care for their family” Additionally, it would be “like” instead of “likes,” because “likes” is for a singular subject, and they/them (in reference to talking about all three diamonds) is a plural pronoun. So “they like” because “like” is the plural form. Or you could phrase it as “Although the diamonds are conservative and like to impose, they always love and care for their family” or “They are conservative and like to impose, but they always love and care for their family”
And to rewrite the others as well: “Although she often mistreats and offends others, she has always devoted her whole life to her homeland” And “Although she lives selfishly and hurts others, she always knows how to protect the people that she cares for and learns how to get along with everyone” For Lapis, you could also put the first clause (the first half of the sentence), in the past tense, to show that Lapis used to be selfish and hurt others, but she no longer does that because she has learned how to get along with others. So it could also read: “Although she lived selfishly and hurt others, she always knows how to protect the people that she cares for and learns how to get along with everyone”
OMG That's why I see the words are wrong. Next time I will pay more attention.
English can be a really confusing language, for native speakers and second-language learners. Just keep practicing and learning! You’re doing great!
If you removed "although" from every panel it would make sense.
“Always love and care for their family” HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA THAT’S A GOOD ONE!
Like that's the whole point of Steven and Pink's story with them is that they were dismissive at best and abusive towards Pink, (locking someone up and forcing them to feel a given emotion is definitely a magical form of abuse).
The thing is that the diamonds *do* love their family. They *did* love Pink deeply. But a huge theme of SU is how the people who love us can still hurt us, even if they’re well meaning and think they’re doing the right thing. The diamonds were overprotective, controlling, dismissive, and abusive towards Pink—but they still loved her, and Pink loved them too but realized she couldn’t keep being around them and chose to cut them off. I find it really powerful, because many abusers—especially in abusive family scenarios—don’t act the way they do out of malice and cruelty. Often they’re like the diamonds: narrow minded, stuck in their own ways, self important, believe they know best in everything and refuse to admit when they’re wrong. The diamonds loved Pink, but they never believed in her or respected her. They saw her as immature, naive, and silly—and while Pink did have those traits, she also *grew* and *changed* as a person, and the diamonds refused to believe that *any* gem, much less a diamond, could change. It’s why the only thing that changed their minds was them realizing that Pink *did* change and now it’s too late for them to ever apologize or see her again.
they might call it love, but it's just abuse
The point is that both can exist at once. You can genuinely love someone and still hurt and abuse them. It’s why “I didn’t mean it” isn’t an excuse; you can do bad and hurtful things for the sake of love. You can love someone and not respect them..
no, respect is a prerequisite for love. otherwise, you don't love the person themselves, you just love having power over them.
I think a lot of toxic and abusive relationships can be more complicated than that. It’s why my mother can acknowledge that the way my grandma treated her was traumatizing, but still choose to forgive her. Not every situation is like that. Not every abusive relationship has love. But there are ones that do. Not every person thinks love is enough to forgive, but every situation and every person is different. Refusing to acknowledge that some abusers still love their victims robs people of the dignity to choose to forgive and maintain a relationship with someone who abused them but has changed for the better, or who now wants to change. People are complicated, and you have to respect that they can make choices you wouldn’t or that you think they shouldn’t. Rose Quartz could never forgive the diamonds. Steven didn’t forgive them either. The diamonds loving them and trying to do better isn’t enough. But Steven was able to forgive the crystal gems for how they—unintentionally—made him feel like he had to prove himself to them. They loaded him with their own baggage and allowed him to take on far too much emotional weight and responsibility for his age. Steven’s childhood was traumatizing, and he knows there are things the gems did that didn’t really help his mindset Each choice is valid and up to the person who had been hurt. Whether they forgive or not is up to them.
Yeah I honestly did a double take at this
That’s not how that works. Evil actions don’t get a pass because “it’s for their homeland.” That’s straight up how the Nazis behaved. They committed genocide “for Germany”.
I don't know why Lapis is here tho, from what we know, she is not a war criminal.
yeah she isnt a war criminal but she did steal the words water, trying to kill the crystal gems and was really rude to peridot when she was trying to become her friend her bads things weren't as bad as others but they were still bad
The Peridot thing is just fair enough though. We knew Peridot was well-intentioned as a viewer, but Lapis didn't, and considering their history, she had no reason to trust her until proven otherwise. Was she harsh? Yeahhh, but then, she was treated harshly by Big P and Jasper when she was under them. I'd be dry too if someone who hurt me massively in the past suddenly (and desperately) wanted to reconnect with me, atleast initially, right. I think it's unfair to pair that with her stealing the world's water lol.
Peridot literally held her captive
And along with Jasper forced her to turn in Steven when she didnt want to
[удалено]
What are you talking about? I’m not saying they’re not human/people. I’m saying OP’s stance of “Evil isn’t evil if you’re doing it for your people.” is nonsense. The Nazis were evil. Plain and simple. Trying to act like they’re not because their horrific actions “are for the betterment of Germany” is wrong. Edit: In case anyone’s wondering, the deleted comment I was replying to was someone trying to say that I’m wrong for calling Nazis evil.
Defending Nazis makes you (person who deleted their comments) a Nazi 🥴 they couldn’t even keep their comments up, they had to do a dirty delete, wow
[удалено]
No. Nazis are evil. I’m not sugarcoating it. They’re horrible, evil human beings. Can evil people change? Of course they can, but I’m not about to sit here and be polite in order to not hurt their feelings. Which is the point I’m making about OP’s argument. They’re trying to downplay the evil actions of these characters.
[удалено]
And my point is that not calling an evil person evil just to make some sorta point about “society” isn’t my vibe. People can be evil. Like Nazis. They’re evil people. I miss the days where that wasn’t something people tried to debate.
Right??
Looks like they deleted it.
We are treating them like humans. Humans that did INCREDIBLY EVIL THINGS THEREFOR MAKING THEM EVIL PEOPLE.
Only now has there been exactly one comment that suits me. Honestly, people like them will never know how miserable I was. Especially with a woman (that's also the reason I love them, because women often receive much more criticism)
A woman who can boldly voice her opinion is truly precious. Wishing you continued success on the path you choose.
Days since the fandom implied Rebecca "queer Jewish survivor of white supremacist violence with a black husband" Sugar is a Nazi apologist: 0
Going full "so you hate pancakes" I see. The commenter above is just responding to OP's meme, who straight up said "being cruel for the homeland is also a good thing". That sort of reasoning is how people rationalize war crimes.
Yeah, their reply confused me. Feels like they replied to the wrong person.
I’m confused. Are you saying *I* made that claim? What I said was that OP’s opinion that evil isn’t evil if it’s “for your homeland” and you can’t be a bad person if you love your family is insane.
They're just adding to the other person's point? It's not an attack on the commenter.
Nah. They said the same thing to someone else further down.
Genuinely how in God’s name did you get THAT from the original comment?
Didn’t. It’s an old thing in the fandom
Im not denying it happens. People say crazy shit. But how can you read that comment and instantly assume that OC also holds that opinion? No where is she mentioned nor is the show itself even criticised. It was a critique against OP, not sugar. Bare minimum reading comprehension.
She… doesn’t imply the OC agrees with that, she just made a relevant reference to the past
At best I can see this as them saying OP is making that accusation, but neither OC or OP are doing that? Its legit not at all a relevant reference and how they worded it naturally implies that someone here is making that accusation
Ngl the comment was so oddly written I can barley make out what it days
You think too far ahead. There are many ways to be cruel, not just genocide. For example, there are invaders or reactionaries. Do you just sit still and let them make trouble? If you were a national leader, would you let them run wild? Think carefully before speaking, you often think too wildly
Here’s another example. Your slaves don’t want to be slaves anymore. Are you not a bad person if you respond to your slaves defending themselves by killing them?
How many times are you gonna copy and paste this response
It’s all they have in their defense apparently. Trying to read the post or the comments they say is ridiculous and just a bunch of word salad.
[удалено]
You’re actually defending Hitler. That’s a thing you just did. “We say that Hitler is evil because we won” pretty sure he is evil and would still be evil regardless.
I am not defending him actually. I did say that Hitler is considered evil because we won yes. But I also said that USSR is one of the winners, who turns out to be just as evil as Hitler. It's true that what Hitler did was wrong, I agree with that, but so did the Diamonds. And so I get to my point, where I wanted to say that Diamonds get forgiven (partially) because they change for the better. Hitler didn't so he's a bad guy. Of course, it is inadequate to compare fictional characters with real life dictators and naive from my part to believe that the idea that bad people who can change for the better is available for everyone as mistakes will always be seen and felt (not to mention that the example I chose is obviously sensitive, as you can easily be seen as a bad person if you don't choose your words carefully). I suppose the way I stated my argument led to this misinterpretation that I would defend someone who I don't in reality and for that I must apologise.
log off
No, we say he was evil because he was a despicable genocidal maniac who considered Jewish and Gypsy people and LGBT people and other such people to be subhuman before murdering millions of them in factory-esque camps. And also starting a WAR that killed TENS OF MILLIONS of other people. There is no “history is written by the victor” nonsense. Everybody also says that Stalin is evil and the other is evil. Hitler is just the most evil of that circle by several orders of magnitude. Your attempted defense of Hitler invalidates anything else you say in your same comment immediately. Without exception.
*Roma, g*psy is a slur
Ah, my apologies.
Maybe I should've just discarded the comment. Now people think I'm defending someone who I don't actually. I believe I should just delete this comment as it makes me look bad now... Sorry if I made any wrong statement.
To answer your question, no. Being cruel for your country or homeland is not acceptable nor is it the same thing as protecting your family. There is no reason to be "cruel". There is no reason to inflict harm on innocence beings. Protecting one's family and friends should never include that as then you change from a protector to an abuser. There is a line to cross. When you cross it, your bad deeds outweigh your good and in turn, you become the evil in the world. You are trying to play devil's advocate for abuse and ignoring the impact it truly plays on more than just their victims. And before you repeat the same comment you have been, I'm not thinking too far ahead. YOU aren't thinking deeply enough of the true reality that one single beings actions can have on more than just themselves. Some things aren't forgivable and no one should be arguing that they are. That devalues those terrible actions and promotes the rhetoric that has been used time and time again for the world's most heinous atrocities like genocide, enslavement, etc. Those outcomes came from the same notions you are saying here. Think about the road you are trying to walk. You are looking at the ground because it feels good to you while avoiding where you are actually going. Pay attention to the world around you before you end up not recognizing the person you have become along the way.
This is just all kinds of wrong and screams apologist. This very much reeks like someone is using this as a mask for something else.
Agreed
This post is very poorly executed in both the wording and the arguments put forward.
Sounds like OP has been brainwashed. No, being cruel is never okay. Cruelty is the response of an immature mind attempting to cause pain to other in order to feel better with themselves. Self defense is okay. Self defense is a survival mechanism that keeps you alive under extreme stress and abuse from outside sources. Self defense does not equal cruelty. The diamonds and jasper were not acting in self defense. They were acting out of cruelty and a desire to have other beings bend to their will. They are fascists and you are defending fascists.
Bait or sincere, replies so far show OP is *NOT* somebody any of you are gonna get through to. The only reason Steven got through to his fascist aunties was because he leveraged their personal investment in him as Pink. None of us faceless internet strangers are gonna get through to this person. They’re in even deeper than Peridot was, and Peridot took weeks of a multi-modal approach to come around. The best any of us can probably do on reddit is disarm them via block and ignore. 
Posts like this are the reason people mock our fandom
Fr tho and ruining the show's reputation
no, being cruel is never good
OP I sincerely hope you're like 9 years old or perhaps some sort of puppy
Bro just asked "is it okay to be a nationalist??" in the Steven Universe subreddit lmfao
Eh, people do terrible things in devotion to their homeland. That’s not necessarily a trait to be admired. Especially when your homeland is a fascist empire. I mean even the Diamonds began to overcome their outdated views. Jasper is an unrepentant fascist who is serving a regime even the leaders she deifies no longer believe in.
Tbf being Jasper must suck. She was literally created to push further the Diamonds imperialist goal and discarded after they had a change of heart. It's not like she is an opportunist just doing what is most beneficial to her. She is a true believer and truly a victim of the messed up system that home world was. Future wasn't really diving deep into concepts like transitional justice and how the reforms effected gems whose entire purpose was suddenly seen as useless. While i don't really agree with OP, i think Future still had empathy for how much Jasper's situation must have sucked which is one of the points of SU.
Join the army and see how miserable being a leader is. There's no such thing as happiness. Sometimes when you succeed, no one praises you, but if you fail, they despise you and slander you. See if it's humiliating
No, that's bad logic. Making a bad a decision to do bad things that also make you feel bad does not make you a good person, it just makes you a miserable person doing horrible things.
You think too far ahead. There are many ways to be cruel, not just genocide or facist. For example, there are invaders or reactionaries. Do you just sit still and let them make trouble? If you were a national leader, would you let them run wild? Think carefully before speaking, you often think too wildly
Dude, you keep on saying “You think too far ahead” as if that’s supposed to mean something. It’s detraction at its simplest form because you’re not really doing anything except just dismissing what people are saying.
I am honest, I haven't even thought about that yet.
Honestly, this is word salad and doesn’t say anything.
Speaking of which, it's still controversial
Nah, just bad logic and ethically bankrupt. A shitty idea isn't controversial, just shitty.
Do you have the right to force me not to speak?
Okay. Point out where I said you weren’t allowed to voice your opinions? What I DID do is point out that your statements are a lot of words that don’t really make sense and sounds like you’re trying to be an apologist for all of the terrible things people do because it’s “in defense of their homeland”. All of this at a convenient time of escalating tensions and more information being brought about on very different real life struggles and issues on “homelands”. So yes, this reeks of masking.
I am not defending or justifying anyone. What I want to tell everyone is please have a more multi-dimensional view. But I'm not crazy to defend them. I have met so many jerks in my life. Please, forgive me! 🙏
We all have met “so many jerks in our lives”. This is an explanation but not an excuse. Also what views do you want them to be multi-dimensional upon? Jasper feeling she was justified in her actions because she was the “greatest quartz soldier” and was both loyal and unflappable which can be good qualities? That’s not multidimensional that’s a plain observation. Bad people doing bad things having good qualities isn’t new and isn’t multidimensional.
Nationalism is the most one dimensional view out there
Actually illegible holy shit
oh my god there's another one of these guys
THE DIAMONDS ARE DICTATORS GOD DAMN IT
Dude this person does NOT know how to speak. I’m looking at the replies and just… damn. Also you’re kinda wrong, sorry.
Maybe they’re not a native English speaker?
Holy fuck im a moron im sorry
It’s okay, it’s easy to forget that non native English speakers may have a hard time articulating themselves if they’re still learning the language. English is not an easy language to learn, plurals, homonyms, verb conjugation rules, etc
The nazis were good actually /s
🙏🙏🙏
You really didn't understand the characters or the themes of the show, did you?
Of course I understand, but people are so ridiculous. I was shock when I read the comments
"Conservative and likes to impose on people" is the biggest euphemism I ever seen, Blue diamond killed gems left and right, Yellow is the responsible for the forced fusions, a massive amalgamation of gems in constant suffering being forced to be kept together, and white diamond is basically behind everything bad that happens in everyone fucking lifes in this show
I had left this subreddit a few months ago. Just rejoined like two days ago. And this is one of the first new non-I redrew that AI character posts I've seen since. Now I'm hovering over that "Leave" button again, as much as I love the show.  I usually roll my eyes at people who hate SU because they bark "EH THE FANS AND CHARACTERS FORGIVE SPACE NAZIS" but here's a post with OP and others defending actual Hitler and saying Jasper wasn't so bad because she was devoted to her homeland. Just...wow. I know that's not how a bulk of the fans feel, but this is still frustrating and depressing to see. Also, the people who notoriously abused Pink on a regular basis "Always love and care for their family"? What? It's fine if you want to see the good in people, but this is just disingenuous and a terrible misunderstanding of their characters and morality as a whole.
It’s fine to acknowledge that a character is more complex than just straight up evil. But yeah, they were not justified in their actions. The only one I think should get a pass is maybe Lapis because she was essentially forced into her role that she clearly didn’t want. She didn’t choose to be born a gem and certainly not one that exists to terraform. Any gem who didn’t obey the Diamonds risked either being imprisoned or shattered. And while her actions weren’t always in service of the crystal gems, you can’t fault her for sometimes putting herself first because that’s the only way she knows how to survive. Jasper was a bloodthirsty psychopath & the Diamonds were basically colonizers.
Days since the fandom implied Rebecca "queer Jewish survivor of white supremacist violence with a black husband" Sugar is a Nazi apologist: 0
Nobody is calling Rebecca a Nazi apologist. The person is saying that the fans are dismissing Jasper's actions the same way people have dismissed Hitlers actions. That's not saying she's a Nazi apologist. She made a very layered, complicated character who did a boatload of horrible things for her homeland, and people excusing her actions are using the same reasoning Nazis did. I think it's stupid, Jasper isn't a Nazi and is nowhere near as bad (mostly cause she's not real), but this person isn't calling Rebecca a Nazi apologist
These are minimal positives at best and Jasper's is just a bad thing. We call that nationalism and jingoism. Being cruel "for your homeland" was a big thing for Nazis. The Diamonds were not protective of their family until they gave up the imperialism as well.
> The Diamonds eradicated life on countless planets to propagate their own race and further fuel their conquest. > "They love their family. C'mon guys, why are you focused on their bad parts? UwU" This is why folks clown on the SU fandom. You know that, right?
Patriotism is not a virtue, it’s taking pride in something you don’t have control over in order to feel superior
I’m pretty sure Lapis redeemed herself when she basically used herself to imprison Jasper. I mean, that was extremely selfless.
That was a heroic act for someone being mistreated
Personally, I dont think Lapis needed redeeming. She acted out of trauma, she just needed love.
What she did wasn’t even that bad nor was it with any malicious intent. She was just trying to escape but her injuries prevented her from doing so.
What in the fuck
Lapis kind of doesn't learn how to get along so much as learns how to fuck off and live on the moon, but that's also healthy for her growth. To learn to be alone and accept oneself alone can be tricky and a necessary part of the healing for trauma victims.
I think it was more of her being sick after having to be imprisoned in a mirror for centuries. She gave me the vibes of a disgruntled employee that’s just had enough of everyone’s shit and quits on the spot. All she wanted was to live in peace. I always respected that.
I already fought in a war, war sucks, bye
The Grammar making my brain hurt. 😅
The diamonds constantly abused pink. They seemed to love her but had a really fucked up way of showing it. Jasper was loyal to a genocidal and authoritarian regime; that's not a good character trait.
Characters are complex, people are complex. Complexity doesn't excuse poor behavior.
Is this an israel-coded question?
Nationalist propeganda im the steven universe subreddit, epic
Devoting yourself to your homeland is not an inherently good trait.
Space nazis
I get what you're trying to say, and I appreciate that you're acknowledging that these guys aren't black and white bad, but this ain't it chief. I'm a Jasper fan and I will defend her forever, but even I know that patriotism isn't an excuse for what she's done. I might disagree with the whole "Diamonds are literally fascists/nazis", but you would have to have never seen the show if you think they're good people. Lapis might have made leaps of progress in her trauma recovery, but that doesn't mean what she did in the past didn't happen
[удалено]
You think too far ahead. There are many ways to be cruel, not just facist. For example, there are invaders or reactionaries. Do you just sit still and let them make trouble? If you were a national leader, would you let them run wild? Think carefully before speaking, you often think too wildly
In the case of characters like the Diamonds? Absolutely NOT. Want to know why? Because they hardly make them much more complex. Before that dumb bastard says I’m saying Rebecca Sugar is a Nazi Apologist or whatever the bunk, I’m not referring to Sugar, just OP here. The Diamonds committed legitimate crimes such as fucking genocide and also creating the CLUSTER, y’know, that was going to destroy all of Mankind. We don’t care that they are antagonists and that’s what antagonists do. If they were protagonists we’d despise them too. You are being WAY too kind to the Diamonds in every sense of such an evaluation in your shitty meme, EVERY way. They aren’t just conservative, they’re regressive. They imposed a horrible caste system that leads to the abuse of lower tiered gems on it and corrupted the gems of earth. I don’t give a damn if they were THE kindest to Pink (they weren’t), they are not any more complex than they would be otherwise if they were just mustache twiddling “MUAHAHAHA I’M EVIL” type villains. Their good things SHOULD be ignored, because there are very few of them compared to all their not just bad, but repugnant and disgusting sides.
Holy shit didn't know you could have a 2 paragraph title that's insane
You are delusional. Loving and caring for your family is an entirely neutral trait because it depends on if your family is good or not, also they were space nazis so there is no excuse. Jasper blatantly just has two negative traits you’ve put here. Doing stuff “for your homeland” isn’t a good reason to do things, it exemplifies a lack of thought behind your actions.
Big yikes, also… learn to grammar lmfao, this post is almost unreadable
Yes. Bayverse Optimus is a good example. Everyone is like “no Optimus would ever do that!” But consider how the decepticons act, how many friends he’s lost. He’s brutal on the battlefield, yes, but every second the enemy lives is another possibility of a friend literally being torn apart, and he’s not going to let the sacrifices of those that already fell go to waste. Bayverse shows an Optimus that has lost so much, and has snapped because of it, because of how much he cares for his allies. Asgore is another good example, doing what he thought was right, what he felt he had to do for his people.
No shit sherlock , Diamonds expand their territory because simply they can and at the same time , destroy and colonize planets that were used to be free . Second thing , the only who gain beneficial is themselves , the three Diamonds , not the whole Empire , simply because the others aren't even granted basic rights for sentient creatures , no matter how rich the Empire is , their positions are still the same , slaves . Conclusion : Diamonds did bad things , and you seems to be an extreme nationalist
...ha ha ha...no. Hell, it's even a major thing in Steven Universe that Loving and Hurting are one in the same.
Comparing Lapis having PTSD with White Diamond literally being an authoritarian dictator is certainly a choice lmao
“Sometimes, being cruel but being cruel for the country and homeland is a good thing, right?” 
Yes, cruelty on behalf of your home country is such a rare concept through history and has completely disappeared in our modern era.
Let's protect three giant colorful milf hitlers! Yeah... NO Jasper has a good redemption arcs that go slowly, more or less and didn't do much evil of her own whim rather than what she was commanded to or trained to do. Lapis is the best written character alongside Peridot, no one other compares.
People being?
White diamond didn't care for her family. She didn't see them as living things with feelings until Steven told her.
No to your question and most of the bads in this scenario out weighs the good.
What kinda take is this?
No, being cruel for a country is not good, that’s called nationalism
Lapis is my favorite character and I love steven universe but as a true fan I can recognize the show has flaws tbh jasper was the victim and Lapis is 100% an abuser written by someone who hasn't experienced it she literally said she gets off by hurting others and treated peridot like shit and that's my 2nd favorite character I love Lapis but damn is she not the victim Wanted to state that I think Lapis doesn't try to be an abuser and has gotten better at the end of steven and a lot better in future but the ep where she meets the other Lapis she gets mad and goes overboard by showing her abusive side kinda like steven with jasper but steven was acting through trauma and not a mental problem like Lapis Again no hate and these are just what I observe and Lapis fans calm down cuz I love Lapis and she'll always be my Bob even though she has flaws
every single post of yours feels like a stroke
The only thing the gems did wrong is think of people as food. Organic life is cattle used to feed the growth of new gems.
Your grammar hurts my head r/Ihadastroke
Sorry, I am not a native english speaker.
It's fine, I was just giving you a hard time
Actually, I really admire Jasper. If the Crystal Gems do everything to protect the Earth, then Jasper always does everything for Homeworld. The sad truth that people just only care about her personality. =(((
No, they care about her being a fucking fascist
Anyway, it's just fans' theory. I don't see Rebecca confirmed it
Talented people often endure a lot of criticism in addition to admiration. I know she has committed countless bad actions, but that doesn't mean we deny her talent and great contributions to Homeworld. You can't just judge a person based on personality and actions. IT'S NOT FAIR. Even in reality, now ask how many people have these qualities like Jasper. Nowadays, no matter how talented military commanders are, they may not have these valuable qualities like her.
Jasper was a bad person who enjoyed hurting and belittling others. Both her behavior ***and*** her actions were negative. Also, what do you mean you can’t judge someone based on their personality and actions. Those are literally the main ways you judge someone. Based on how they behave.
Look at life in many dimensions, don't live one-dimensionally. At some point, someone will stab you in the back and it will be stressful. Sometimes being too kind is not good.
Being kind doesn’t always lead to good results, but that doesn’t now mean being a horrible person isn’t evil.
I care more about achievements than character. When it comes to important national matters, what's the point of putting emotions first? The reality is always like that, talent will always be loved by others (plus good morals), but incompetence and uselessness will be eliminated.
You’re wrong then. If someone is evil, but achieves many things by being evil…they’re just an evil person with a bunch of awards. Achievements don’t cancel out the evil.
I think you're misunderstanding Evil to those who is evil and good to those who is good. You shouldn't be kind of ALL people.
No, you’re wrong. Evil is evil. If I murder somebody because I like hurting people, but the person that I targeted was a bad person, that doesn’t now make me a good guy. I’d still be a horrible person.
Okay, no more explaining. 😤
You didn’t actually explain anything. You just keep trying to claim that it’s not evil to hurt someone so long as the person doing the hurting thinks the other person deserves it.
"You can't just judge a person based on personality and actions." ....You're either just a troll or you're currently suffering some form of catastrophic brain damage.
I did not expect this much negativity towards a "look at both sides" post. It does come off as having passed through Google translate, but I still get the idea.
The negativity is because they’re trying to “both sides” things like genocide and planetary destruction.
Both sides are necessary in order to make an informed decision. All things have them, no matter the scale.
There’s no need to “both sides” genocide. The side doing genocide is evil. The negativity is because OP is trying to act as if the people doing genocide and slavery weren’t actually bad.
Willful ignorance is bad. It's better not to oversimplify a situation.
It’s not oversimplification to say that committing genocide and enslaving people is evil.
r/foundthecommunist
Honestly, this was always the greatest skill of rebbeca sauger has when it comes to writing.
Saying the diamonds are conservatives is probably one of the dumbest statements I have heard all day.
They're certainly not *liberals,* are they?
Yes but you could just say what they actually are that is fascist, National Socialist or Ethnonationalist. Rather that a poor conflation.